93: Rapping into Courageous Conversations & Respect with Janet Taras

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast. So, you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. This week's guest is a speaker and trainer on the topic of courageous conversations. She's also a motivational rapper. Using the game of WRAP to help people in the workplace build confidence and release frustration that enables them to have more tough talks. Our guest today is Janet Tarras. Is that correct pronunciation, Janet?

Yes, Tarras is fine.

Tarras, awesome. So thank you so much for joining us. We're going to dive right into this because you do some unique approach and you use wrapping. So can you talk about how you use wrapping to help people have difficult conversations, courageous conversations?

Well, I think— thanks for that. I think that one of the best ways to build confidence is through music. I always felt that, and I think that music does tend to allow us to lose a bit more of our inhibitions. But why I started doing it is because I was teaching this course called Courageous Conversation, and it's all about having difficult conversations. And I realized the more that I was doing it and the more people I was training and the more tips I was giving, it— I'm sorry. Wasn't actually making much of a difference when it came down to the crunch and they actually had to have the conversation. And what was missing was almost like this catalyst, something that they could have a tool, something that could actually inspire them to go ahead and have that conversation. And that's what I was looking for. And as I was looking for it, I was in a situation where I needed to have that confidence as well. And my daughter was studying her music and she started to look at the area of rap. And the more I listened to my daughter, the more I realized that it is ultimately the best fake it till you make it strategy that I could ever think of. I mean, have you ever heard an insecure rapper?

Right. Correct.

And so whether these people, these rappers are actually feeling confident or not, they really do sound it. So I started to test this out and I started to see if it would work and all of the clients that I was actually giving talks to, I would say, okay, well, it's now Time to build a bit of that will, that desire to have the conversation. Let's give this a go. And it started to work. And the more people that tried it, the more people liked it, and the more people actually gained their confidence to have the conversation. Obviously, I would never say everybody. It's not it's not something that everybody is going to love. If you hate rap music, then you know you will not try it. But for most people, they'll give anything a go if it means they're actually going to have. The more confidence to have those really difficult conversations.

And so how do you do it? What are, what's the, what's the form or the strategy?

Well, this is the secret. Um, it is based on psychology and a little bit of neuroscience, but, um, but it's very simple also. Um, and I've developed this along with some rappers, some actually quite well-known UK rappers, all women, oddly. Um, a lot of the people that I am, I speak to, uh, have very Widespread women's networks, and what was happening is I reached out to women in particular because, and I think you'll like this, being the center of respect, I found that rap music, as awesome as it is, also has a very bad reputation with regard to misogyny. And so I wanted to speak to a lot of the most influential women rappers that I could think of to say, how are you handling this, and how exactly are you going to overcome it, and how are you competing in this very male-dominated world? And so I started working with them, and together we came up with this strategy that helps them to write their raps and to have confidence. It goes into 3 steps. So the first step is all about venting. And I think particularly here in the UK, that's where I am, people tend to hold back when it comes to their frustrations, when it comes to any type of emotion really. They're not as expressive as in the States or Canada, which is where I'm from. And so this being allowed to vent was something that a lot of people really welcomed here. And so we gave them the templates for certain raps that they had to simply fill out the blanks. And that is how they start to vent their frustrations on a particular topic. We then move to the second step, which is about clarity and clarifying where this anger and frustration comes from. The philosophy being that once you understand the anger, you could act— that's not true.

Yeah.

And once you release the anger, you could then look at it and have a perspective, if that makes sense to you, and say, okay, well, is there any logic to that emotion? And then clarifying it for the person themselves. And then the third step is to then put it into words that they think the person they're going to have the conversation will be able to understand. So it's really looking at their adversary or the person that they're speaking to and understanding their perspective. So, once you go through those 3 steps, you feel you're a lot less angry, you're more clear, and you have an understanding of who you're about to speak to before you have the conversation.

So, it is, it is, uh, I don't want to say the word aimed because that sounds more confrontational, but it is purposed at the person causing frustration. So, this is done for when you're in a relationship that has conflict in it. Specifically. So the venting is about a person and/or the person's actions. Is that correct?

Yeah, it's whatever. So if I was going to be training you, or it's usually a group of people, let's say we choose the topic of, um, people speaking over you in meetings. Everyone hates being spoken to over, over being spoken over in meetings. Uh, they feel disrespected. They feel, they feel, um, marginalized. And so allowing them to express how it is that they're feeling. So it's about the individual person and how they are feeling.

All right, that makes total sense. So is there any chance to give us an example?

Would you like me to rap for you? Is that what you're saying, Mike?

Yes, yeah, I mean an example of how this, you know, then people get to hear it. They just say, ah, okay, got it.

I see. Okay, well, I can't, um, the way I, I suppose I could give you a bit of a template, but you know what, why don't I give you, um, I could actually tell you, I could give you my rap that I wrote for Women's International Women's Day.

Perfect.

And actually, it does go through these steps a little. It's not as processed because I wanted to make it a nice song. So when they do it in a group, it's more, okay, this is how I feel, and it'll be more rhymey. So this is going to encompass everything, just not in the right order, if that makes sense.

Yep, makes sense.

Okay, so we go, ladies and gentlemen, we're here to say that balance is better for the world today. We wanna talk action and equal pay. We want both genders here to stay. We will not breed new hate, hate, hate. We will not amass you late, late, late. The scales must hold equal weight. Our kids must have equal fates. No to misogyny, it's not all right. We will not smile or be polite. No more predators, no more fight. No more hurt, just stop that fight. And then I go into another section where I talk about the time that I was fired when I, when I told my company that I was pregnant.

So I'm going to pause and go back to some of the lyrics there because you said we don't want to emasculate. And so who is that talking to? Who is that for?

So that is for both men and women. But I suppose when I say, um, we will not breed new hate, because we— what I, I don't want to do— this is— it was the whole theme of International Women's Day was about balance and actually bringing men and women into The conversation, so I didn't want to focus on anything that was going to breed any anger towards either gender. So we will not breed new hate, and then we will not emasculate. We don't want to make any man effeminate. We're not looking for them to become a woman. We're respecting who they are. The scales must hold equal weight. Our kids must have equal fates. It's not about becoming more a woman leader leading like a man, or a man leader leading like a woman. I. I think we just need to actually have the right balance in order to have the right equality.

All right, so let's pause there. So if somebody was using this in the workplace, you had said this is a way to help them have courageous conversations. So is somebody writing the rap and then rapping it to the person, the coworker? No.

Oh no, no, no. Sorry.

I should not have said that. I can see that being very— people going, what is going on here?

You know, that is bold, Mike. I would— I think even the most bold of people would never do that. Even rappers wouldn't do that. But no, it's definitely not for that. It is for you. It's for— if you could imagine, just imagine yourself having that really uncomfortable conversation. Let's imagine you have to fire someone because you found out they were stealing and you really like this person and you don't want to have this conversation because you know that they have a family at home and they're feeling they're going to be embarrassed, etc. You're dreading it. This is to pump you up. This is to make sure that you have that conversation because if you don't, the person's going to continue to do whatever bad thing they were doing, stealing, or simply just not do their job and you'll just sit back and be marginalized because they're not doing the job that you hired them to do. So it's making sure that it's building up a bit of confidence and a bit of will in order to do that and making sense of why you need to do this.

And you use the term courageous conversations in your work, and that's what you teach. So are you part of the best-selling— are you trained under Glenn Singleton's book series, the whole Courageous Conversations?

No, not at all. Not at all. I am— I ultimately came up with everything that I do based on 25 years in the beauty industry, which is where I was brought up and came from, having to have an enormous amount of difficult conversations with a lot of difficult people, and was very well known for overcoming and dealing with these situations very well. And people started to ask me what I did right and what I was doing. And so I started to share that. Since then, I also— I obviously have done lots of training, but not that particular training. I have done lots in the neuroscientific world. I've done a lot of independent trainers, CIPD. I don't know if you guys have that there. But I also am about to do my master's in organizational development— sorry, organizational psychology, or you call it business psychology in the States. So all of this, it's all a work in progress, but all of what I teach is very much based on my own experience.

Okay, very cool, because I know here Courageous Conversations is a big brand. In fact, it's trademarked.

Really?

Yeah, because that whole book series.

I didn't know that.

Yes, yeah. So I did— I thought you were conducting their trainings because that word is owned by them here. That phrase is owned by them.

You know what, it's funny you mention that because when I did trademark it here in the UK, Um, it did say that there was somebody, they would, it had lapsed. It no longer was relevant. They must've been in the UK once and then no longer. So I saw that courageous conversation was there, but it wasn't, it wasn't owned by anyone. Yeah.

Yeah. No, that's very, I was just intrigued by that. So that's interesting.

That's very interesting.

Yeah.

I'll look that up and maybe perhaps actually look at it.

Yeah. Very cool. Uh, and so, you know, we're all about respect here and you've had some experiences yourself that taught you a lot of lessons. One was about when you were pregnant. So can you share that?

Okay, so the reason I actually feel so very passionate about what I speak about has to do with the fact that when I was 32, I very surprisingly ended up being pregnant. No, I say surprisingly because I really wasn't expecting it. I had taken all precautions one must take, but somehow it didn't work.

No, 100%. We work in our line of work, that's something, you know, you always There is no 100%.

That's right. So when I discovered this, I had also at the very same time just accepted a new role as one of the highest levels within a very big growing company within the industry I worked in, and I was very excited. And I signed the contract and I was all ready to go, and I actually went on a trip. I went on a holiday, and it was while I was away that I found out that I was pregnant. I won't go into details, but it's another time. I'll tell you all about it. About that. It was quite funny. When I got back to the UK, I— when I found out I was definitely pregnant, I thought, well, what do I do? Do I tell this employer that I'm so excited about that I'm pregnant? I don't need to. I, I actually— I by law don't have to tell them until I'm 6 months. But I said, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna tell them because ultimately I am gonna be the father.

I want to pause it just so our listeners understand. So in Canada, you must tell the employer by the 6-month mark?

No, in the UK. Okay, I mean the UK.

You mentioned Canada earlier too. Okay, so I apologize.

No worries. So in the UK, you have till 6 months. You do not have to tell your employer until you're 6 months pregnant. But I did not want to do that seeing as I was so senior. I felt I wanted to be very upfront, very honest, and also my intentions were to take no more than a couple of months off and then get back to work. I was so excited about this position. So I went and I told them and they were very Kind. They they looked at me in the eye and they said, "Thank you very much for your honesty," and big handshakes, big congratulations. And then the very next day, I got a letter of withdrawal, which was shocking because I'd already resigned from my other position. I mean, I'd signed on the dotted line, and I couldn't understand it. I really I couldn't get what it is that was going on. How could this happen in this day and age? I really couldn't. I couldn't. It took me a very long time, and the worst part. Of this entire story was that every person who fired me was actually a woman. And the company I was working for was a beauty company also catering towards women. So you just didn't expect it. And I was very angry. I was very upset. But I was also pregnant and single. And I couldn't really— I didn't have the strength, Mike, is the truth. I didn't have the strength to fight. I fought a little. Nothing major. You know, I just— I got really tired. I was very scared. I didn't know what was going to happen, and so I didn't do much. And then over the years, as time went on, I realized how angry I was and how suppressing all that anger actually didn't do much for me as a person. It didn't really help me to develop. In fact, I was quite stagnant, and that's when I realized I needed to help people. To express themselves. And first I had to help myself. I went through loads of therapy and I went through lots of, of, uh, training on myself to realize where I had to let go and where I had to actually build and empower myself to be able to have these type of conversations without fear. Um, and that's what I'm trying to help other people do.

Very powerful. Now, looking back, you said you were surprised because this was an organization catering to women And it was women who fired you. Does looking back, does that still surprise you?

No, it doesn't surprise me. It just makes me sad every time. I never even— just hearing you say it makes me sad again. Yeah, I don't— I'm actually speaking on Friday— no, sorry, next Friday at my daughter's school. She goes to an all-girls school, and I decided I would tell this story because it's one of my biggest pet peeves. I just I want women— I know we can't all like each other. It's half the population. We can't say we're all going to be friends. But you would think that in a world where the business world has very— well, we know it's been dominated by men since the industrial age. And why we're not helping each other to actually gain equality is beyond me. And it's got to start earlier. And it's got to start in school time. And we've got to make changes. And those changes have to happen. At a young age. And so, uh, so yeah, it still saddens me. It doesn't surprise me. And it, it, I do want to find the best ways we can to change it.

Well, it's, it's an important topic. Absolutely. And, and it's one of those difficult conversations, you know, which you focus in on difficult conversations. So what are skills people should have when trying to have a difficult conversation? What are steps they can take?

Well, the first thing that they, they should do, in my opinion, is look at all elements of the conversation. Now, again, you're not going to have time to prepare like this for every difficult conversations, so I'm now talking about the biggies, okay? The biggies like you want to ask for a promotion or something like you have to tell somebody they're not doing well in their work. My first step would be to look at what it is that the person you're about to speak to is going to be motivated by. So I would say you want to almost diagnose where it is that their mindset is, and this is something that I took from NLP. It's not mine uniquely. But NLP tells you that you have to visit the mindset people are already in before you actually can bring them out into your mindset. So that's, I think, where you could start. You can never start a big, difficult conversation by just blurting out what it is you want to talk about because their brain isn't there yet. So the first step I would say is find out where they are in their mind, ask them questions, and start the conversation that way. I think the next step is very important too, and very sadly, I mean, it's an obvious one, but we don't do it. And that is by looking at what it is you might be missing within that conversation. So you, you kind of have to look at the fact that you have biases, for instance, the fact that you may have not been clear when you were, when you were explaining whatever you were explaining, or, or, or possibly what you're not seeing underneath the surface. Is that person going through something, not going through something? Are they angry about something else? Any possibility that you might be missing. That would be my second step. My third step is to always look at the person that you are about to speak to and have an idea of the type of language that they're interested in, that they're responsive to, the tonality. Some people don't like when you speak quickly. Some people don't like when you speak too slowly. Some people don't like when you raise your voice. Some people only listen when you raise your voice. Look at the person that you're speaking to, get an idea of how you think they would be most responsive. That will help you as well. And then you have the conversation. So I suppose those 3 steps— sorry, I'm missing one though. The 4th step before you have the conversation is to actually figure out what it is that's going to make you have this conversation. Because like I said, I could teach techniques until I'm blue in the face, but you're not going to actually do it unless you want to do it. And that's where I bring in the WRAP, but if not WRAP, It's looking at the consequences of what would happen if you don't have this conversation and what will change and what won't change. Then you have the conversation.

You have an experience that you had with a bully in your professional life. I don't know if it was professional or personal. You had shared about that. Did that come in here? Was that a point where you had a conversation with them?

Yes, I did. It was a personal and professional. I think I always overcome these type of conversations. The one that I think I referred to earlier was at work and it was a very aggressive manager. She was the type of person who, you know, my way or the highway. I just wasn't working that way. Actually, what was very interesting is through this relationship with her, I learned a lot about myself as well. When I was initially approaching her, I would be as aggressive as she was. And I thought that was going to work. Clearly, it was the wrong thing to do because she was threatened every time I was being more aggressive and so threatened that she didn't even want me there anymore. So her anger was just multiplying every time I tried to seem strong. And as I started to learn more about her, I started to realize that actually If she's threatened by me and she is my manager, what can I do to remove that threat? How is it that I can make her feel more comfortable with me? And then I started to change my approach. And once I started to remove the threat, she started listening a lot, a lot more. And actually, over time, we became friends. I did not continue working for her forever, but we do have a decent relationship, and I think that She has learned and actually has come to me in the past and said that I had taught her quite a bit about how to manage people. It was her first time managing as a managing director, and I taught her how to sort of adapt her management style to others. But then I had to learn how to adapt my style to the people who were managing me. So I don't think it's a one-way street, that's for sure. And I think that you're never going to be able to change somebody else's behavior. Hopefully you do, but you'll never completely do that. You do have control over your behavior. Until you've exhausted all possibilities of how to fix a situation by changing your approach, you don't have to change yourself. You change your approach. You change the words. You change the scenario, the tonality. If they're still not listening, then obviously you have to call it at that point. Until then, I really think we give up too easily. That actually is in a personal way as well. I think we, we don't often try everything we can to save a relationship.

You have personally had experiences where you didn't have that conversation and it led to lost friendships. Is that part of why you do what you do also?

Yeah, that was, uh, that was a huge event in my life. I had just moved to the UK. Um, I had very, very few friends when I moved here and I befriended this woman who actually ended up being— having a daughter the same age as my daughter and we all got along so well. And over time, we were almost like family. We really— she was the closest thing I had to family. And until one day when she just simply stopped replying to my emails, and I couldn't figure out why. And I did email her.

I—

that's what we do, isn't it? When we're uncomfortable, we don't pick up the phone. We email and say, so what's happening? What's up? And without any surprise, she didn't email me back. And so months went by, literally months went by until finally about 6 months later, she did call and told me that she felt that we were visiting too often. I didn't mention that she didn't live within London itself. We had to actually take the train to see her. Very often we would sleep over and that felt a little bit too invasive for her. Which is understandable. I totally understood. On the other hand, six months later, I was already so angry with the woman that when she called me, I started yelling and screaming, which led her to start yelling and screaming. And then stuff was said, and we lost the friendship for a really long time. Six years. It was six years ago, and six years later. As I was speaking about this particular story at an event that I was at in May, I thought, you know what? I'm going to give her a call. I wonder if she has learned as much as I have over the last six years, and if she would want to actually repair this relationship. Is it possible we could have a new ending? And so I called her, and thank God she was very, very responsive. She was very excited to hear from me, and she wanted to meet up with me and my daughter. And so we did, and we now are back to being friends. But that took 6 years. Yeah, it was a really nice ending of a story. It took 6 years and a lot of self-soul-searching. I used to use the story as a precautionary tale, saying, you know, if you don't speak up early, you'll lose what could be a very valuable relationship. I now tell it as a happy ending story. You know, it's a story where even after 6 years, it could be repaired. It's going to take time to be the same friendship as it was, but it has been— the first step has been taken.

Well, that's very cool. Thank you for sharing that. I want to make sure that everybody can find you so they're able to learn from you. And the website you have is speakingrights.com, speakingrights.com. And we're going to have all of your links and everything on the show notes. So thank you, Janet, so much for sharing with us today.

It's my absolute pleasure, Mike. It was a pleasure. I didn't get to speak to you much, but, uh, I do hope I helped with some, some insights for difficult conversations.

Absolutely. And for our listeners, you know what's next. That is question of the week. This week's question is, Mike, for a person that has never been sexually intimate with someone, how do you approach your first kiss, the first time you have sex, the first time you engage in a sexual act? This is a great question. And the good news is that the answer is consistent no matter what choice you're making for the first time. Share your thoughts with your partner, right? And let people know that. Set a foundation So if you've never kissed someone, there's nothing wrong. In fact, it can be very empowering to tell a partner, you know, I haven't kissed someone, and when I do, I want to know that it's the right person in the right moment, and I want to make sure they give me a choice. And likewise, if I make the choice that I want to kiss someone, I'm going to give them a choice. I'm going to ask them, would you ask me before you would ever kiss me to honor myself and my boundaries and my wants? Would you be cool with that? Right. And you make it sound fun. Now, once you're in a relationship with someone, you can do that, have the same conversation about any sexual act or any level of sexual intimacy. Hey, before I make that choice, I want to know it's the right situation, the right time, the right partner. Would you always give me a choice and respect my answer? And of course I'll do the same for you. So you use your words and you use your spoken words so that you two are able to connect and listen to each other, see how each other responds in those moments. And is everybody honoring the other person's boundaries and their own boundaries throughout that process? We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/mutuallyamazingpodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so So you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships. Thank you.