Join guest Leah Barrett LIVE on "Mutually Amazing Podcast with Mike Domitrz"

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Mutually Amazing Podcast. And I love the title of our show because today you get to meet somebody who is truly amazing and has experienced a journey that is difficult and challenging and has been very inspiring to so many that have watched the journey occur. So Leah Baird, thank you so much for joining us.

Yeah, it's a pleasure, Mike. Thank you so much for asking me to be with you today.

Oh, you know what? It was actually from someone who reached out and said, Mike, you should have Leah on your show. It was my sister who knows both you and myself, and she's like, you should have Leah. And I'm like, oh my gosh, of course, uh, because Leah is so inspiring and your journey is unique but not totally unique. There's a lot of people with this struggle. And so what I'd like to do is start off and just let you tell your story.

Sure. Yeah, um, about 6 and a half years ago, I was diagnosed with stage 3 ovarian cancer. And like most people diagnosed with cancer, it feels like it comes out of the blue, like it just— the floor drops out from under you. And I went through a year and a half of treatment. I was able to find remission, which is great. In that process, because I was fairly young for an ovarian cancer diagnosis, though sadly that's changing, I was genetically tested to see if I was a carrier of any of the genes that put you at high risk for ovarian and breast cancer. And sure enough, which was a shock because you don't see cancer in my family, I am a BRCA1 carrier, which is a genetic mutation of a gene that increases your risk for breast and ovarian cancer. So after I finished treatment for ovarian cancer, I thought, I'm not going to get breast cancer. So I went ahead and had a prophylactic double mastectomy, which is a risk-reducing surgery. And here's the funny part of my story. I got breast cancer anyway, which is odd and rare. And I don't want to freak anyone out who's got a BRCA1 carrier and went through these surgeries. It was like the 1% chance and I got it. Went through another year and a half of treatment. And then just about 8 months ago, I experienced a recurrence of the ovarian cancer and, and, and through that treatment. So I've been living with cancer for 6 and a half years and And I guess really what I wanna say is I don't want to lead my life with cancer, right? I wanna live with it parallel or maybe even behind me sometimes because I don't want it to crowd out the rest of my life.

Yeah, and you do that. I mean, anybody who follows you on social media sees that, you know, you're living your life. There are people who are, you know, physically healthy by all terms who don't live their life as much as you're living yours. What were the stages? So you hear when somebody goes through, finds out they have cancer, it's almost like the stages of grief, you hear about that. Is that true? And how does that work? And what are those?

Yeah, no, that's a great question because it is very much a grief process and I'm still in it. And I think anyone living with a life-changing event is in the process of grieving constantly. So, you know, that first stage you hear about in the grief model is, is denial. And I love denial. It's like my favorite stage of grief because it just, it really is protective. Like you just can't take all that information in at once. You just can't. And, and so the other thing about cancer, especially if you're going to choose treatment, is you're typically thrown into treatment quickly. So there really isn't even time to process what's happening to you. So not only is it just, I can't take all this in, you don't even have time to process that. And it's usually right when treatment's ending, if that's true for you, as it was for me, is when it starts to hit you what's really happening. And that's when the other kind of stages of grief that we tend to talk about, like anger and sadness—

Can I pause there? Because I think you bring up something really important. You said as treatment's ending, so it's denial through treatment.

It can be.

Yeah, that's interesting. 'Cause I think for those who haven't been through this would probably think denial and then angry as soon as you have to go to treatment, right? Like people assume that who haven't gone through it maybe. And so while you're going through treatment, how is the battle with denial? Because you're being treated, so you can't deny, but you're trying to deny. So how does that work?

Well, I think it's also part of that survival mechanism is, I mean, clearly, yes, obviously I'm going into the hospital or I'm going to the infusion center. I'm gonna have surgery. You're, you're very aware, but the true emotional processing, at least how I experienced it, didn't happen until I was done with treatment. So I don't want to mislead people and say that I didn't have moments of deep sadness or anger or even bargaining, which is a stage of grief. Like, you know, if I do this and this won't really happen to me. But none of that really hit until I could take a deep breath. And I got through the treatment part and all of a sudden the oncologist says, you know, see you in 3 months. And you're like, wait a minute here. And then you have all this time to, like, look at the train wreck that just happened. And so for me, I would say that it's not that I wasn't completely taking in those other emotions through treatment. I just didn't have time to process it like I did when I finished treatment.

And when you finish and they say, come back in 3 months, You're in limbo, right? You don't actually know yet. And from some people I know as friends have gone through this, they don't really know if it worked until that 3 months, right? And sometimes longer. And some, I think some cancers it's different, they can know right away, but it's different with each one. Was that the case in your situation where you wouldn't really know how effective it was for 3 months?

Well, in my case, actually, and then I'm happy to say not everyone has this, There were things in my case were things like were called tumor markers. This is something that they look for in the blood to see if the cancer is active, as well as CAT scans and that thing, a way to assess. And so we could actually see that things were working. But no, you're right. That's not necessarily true. I think the bigger, scarier part for me and maybe others have gone through this can relate to this would be like you are launched out there after treatment. And treatment feels like you're doing something, right? Like I'm doing something to battle this cancer. And when you're done with treatment, while you're so relieved, all of a sudden you're feeling powerless. Like, am I— I'm not doing anything, right? This cancer could be growing right now. And so it's living with that unknown and the uncertainty and the fear. when you're not in active treatment. I think that's one of the harder pieces of the whole thing.

I think especially when you're a doer, right? And you're a doer. You're somebody who implements. You put things into action and you're not giving me something to do. It's a lack of, I would imagine it's a loss of control.

It is.

Those who are high achievers, we like control, whether we admit it or not, or we've worked on letting go of it. We still like it, like it to have it there.

Yeah.

And so it's a loss of control, I would imagine, on some level.

Oh, at every level, the whole thing, the diagnosis coming at you is you just immediately, for me, feel like I have lost all control. Like there is, there is something, there's a reckoning around that. Like I, I thought I had control. I like, my life was on a path. And all of a sudden, I'm in the ditch.

Right.

And I need to actually rely on other people to get me out of the ditch. And that was a whole other piece is Is that, like, letting my life be in the hands of others. It's also, and has been, really, really hard.

And you're really active. You exercise, you're very active. Were you as active before, more active or less? And did this bring about a different approach to that?

Oh yeah, no, that's still happening for me to try to figure that out. Yeah, I, I actually, right before I was diagnosed the first time, had just sold a business that I had created, a small kind of boutique fitness studio. So I kind of threw my heart into integrating my background as a therapist, psychotherapist, a nutritionist and fitness specialist into this endeavor. And I had just ended that chapter. And so one could say I was probably in the best shape of my life as a result of doing that business. And then just within months, I was diagnosed with cancer. And that then all that whole experience of my identity got sidelined because I physically wasn't capable, given the type of treatment I was going through, to be active. I mean, it was a success just walking to the end of the driveway and back. And so it was crushing that way, crushing from a place of not feeling capable physically, humbling. And so I had to like work my way back, which I've had to do 3 times. I'm in the process the 3rd time of trying to find my body again. And I will say this, it's so humbling and it's been such a beautiful teacher to me around appreciating what this body does for me instead of— I was so driven as an athlete before, like striving constantly for the finish line. I don't have that now, and it's such a relief. I'm just so appreciative of my physical ability, whatever that is on any given day.

I'd love to dive into this, and I want to pause just for a moment because I want anybody who's watching right now to know that you can comment below and post a comment so we can— if you have questions for Leah, you can post them there. We're doing this live podcast, so you can absolutely do that. So please feel free to do that. You can make comments. We'll be able to see that and discuss the comments. Leah, I want to step back into what you just said there, which I think is so important. Not, you know, letting go of the finish line approach, which so many athletes have, so many people who work out have. And I think it's so important for us to discuss this. I have gotten caught into that where if, if I'm not accomplishing this certain benchmark when I'm working out, if the body doesn't look this certain way when I'm working out, or, and, or I look at friends, we play the comparison game, right?

Yeah.

There's that person over there doing the Ironman. There's that person competing in weightlifting. And, and I've I don't have that muscle definition, and they might be unhealthier than me because they are always pushing for the finish line, and they're they're not well rounded. They're over pushing the body. They're doing all of that. So can we pause and talk about that? By the way, there's Sherry. She's the one who I said one of my sisters who had said, "Hey, you have to have Leon." Sherry's watching this, which now it's great. So thanks, Sherry, for joining us. Can you talk about that? Is that what you're referencing? And I don't want to assume it is, but is that what you're referencing? That go go go versus Hey, health means the body needs to get sleep and rest and eat well and have serenity and doesn't have to crush itself to prove itself.

Totally. And I'm not sure I would have learned that, Mike, if I hadn't been completely stopped in my tracks by cancer. I was always striving for the next big event, the next big, you know, ultra something or other. I was going to, you know, prove that I was capable and And I think that was one of the biggest lessons I learned because I couldn't do that anymore. I was forced to let go of that kind of striving that I realized, in all honesty, I wasn't practicing what I was preaching to the people I work with, that we do need to listen to the body and find ways to feel accepted and successful that isn't about achieving the next thing. And especially in sport, which is, I think, all about finish lines, honestly. I mean, mostly, right? If we're honest about that. I mean, it's always like, you know, what's your PR and what's— what next event are you going to enter? And, or, you know, how much muscle are you going to put on or how much weight can you lift? Or there's just so much fixated on the end of something. Yeah.

Even body fat percentage, right? Like, what's my body fat? It's all those different numbers.

Yeah. And, and first of all, I mean, I just so quickly realized again, the lack of control. I— there's nothing I can do about that in that I have now had these limitations. And even now I have to be very careful as I'm finding my way back to health again, to not slip back into thinking that the only way I can prove that I'm healthy is demonstrating that I can run again or I'm going to ride this far on my bike again. It's, it's, it's not about that. It's a slippery slope. I really think that that achievement trap is not a source of happiness. It actually can be a source of misery.

And it's almost like an addiction, right? It can be for some people, actually. It can actually be an addiction. And I love what you said there about being careful because I can every now and then— I've, for the most part, I've been able to let go of that, but every now and then something happens and it traps— I fall back in. Like, oh, I'll try to do it. I don't have the greatest knees anymore, so I don't run. And then, oh wait, there's this technique and you can run. And you find, well, let's see if I can do 5. And I can do— like, what are you doing? You were like totally good without that in your life, right? Why are you just seeing if you can to see if you can? And I think that's what you're referring to, right? It's in here always. It's a metaphor that we're letting it get control or we're saying, I don't need that. I can let go of that.

Right. Yeah. And, and one of the biggest lessons I've learned since going through cancer treatment is such a physical experience in addition to spiritual and emotional. And I mean, all of that, but the tangible body, right? This is the thing we can see and then, and then measure, like, again, how far we can run or what we feel like is that our body talks to us.

It—

If we just listen to it, I mean, really listen to it, it will tell us what we need. Do we need to rest? Do we want to go for a run? How far do we want to go? I mean, there's something about trusting the body. And I say this even as a nutritionist around food. You know, I think we've gotten so disconnected from our appetite and eating. And I've had to trust my body around healing. I have to trust that the body knows what it wants and what it wants to do. And so in a way, that's been my mantra around any of this stuff we're talking about, is I might say I'm going to go for a run to prove something to myself. But the first thing I ask is, what— wait, what am I feeling? Like, really, what does this need? And if I get, you know, a quarter mile into something and I'm not happening, I'm going to stop. Because it's more important to respect what my body's telling me than in my head push through something.

I love that because we're so taught that stopping is like losing, giving up, quitting. It's a sign of weakness. And so, you don't listen, right? Even though you know your brain's saying that now. And if you're like, but what if my brain's saying that every day? Well, then I'd be asking why you aren't getting the rest, that your brain's feeling that way every day. What's stressing you?

Yeah.

So, what are things that— what does it look like now for you when you think of a healthy being? Because you're a professional. Not only are you somebody who's thriving Through cancer, you professionally are highly educated and experienced in this field. So for you, what does health look like? Like if someone were to sit down and say, what does it mean to have a healthy body? What does it mean to have a healthy— what does that mean for you?

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's, it's, it's something that I actually ask my clients their take on. Like, what, what do you think that means for you? Because my goal is to see if that's working anymore for you, right? Like you're in here for a reason. something that's off. And I want to ask you what you think health is for you, whether it's, again, emotional health, physical health, cognitive health. And I think where I help people sort that out is what you were alluding to earlier, which is around balance. And balance, again, it's going to be different for everybody. But if If, if we think of ourselves as a, as a pie and we, we have sort of pieces of who we are in that pie through identity in our work, our relationship, our health, our community, our friendship. I mean, however you want to define the slices of who you are in that pie. And you were to, you were to draw that pie and represent those slices based on how much time or energy you're spending in any one of those. and you start to see that my pie is, you know, 3/4 consumed with work, but I say that I value relationship or my health or my community, then that's— something's off, right? And so to me, that's not healthy, right? I mean, that's where suffering comes in. And so really it's about first having someone define what is important to you. What are your values? How do you, how do you say you want to live your life? And then how are you living your life? Like, where is that time? Going to? Where are you investing? And is there dissonance? Is it disconnected? Are you not congruent? That is not healthy. So I feel like really health is about cultivating what brings you a sense of joy and satisfaction and peace, and and doing those things. Most people, there's a dissonance. There's a disconnect.

Yeah, I love it. I remember when a trainer once asked me, what are you looking for? And I said, I want to be vibrant. And he's like, oh, that's not normally what we hear. We normally hear this body fat or this muscle or this vibrant. So what does that mean? And it took us on a really explorative discussion. So when I came in and they would see signs of I was overtired, they're like, no, we're just— you're not doing this today because that's going to kill your vibrancy. And you're on the road all— this is back when we could be on the road.

Yeah.

You're on the road all the time. Uh, and so we need to be careful of that. And it, it was a big mind shift for me of allowing that to let go. This has been awesome. So I love how we took this into the workout, the healthy mind, the healthy body. I want to step back because we just started going to the other stages. We're still at stage 1, denial, is where we came into this conversation. I think 2, you said, was anger. So you came out of treatment, that's where anger came in. So how does—

Yeah.

So go ahead. So you came out of treatment the first time, and stage 2 of grief, which is anger, shows up? And how does that appear? How do you, how do you move forward through that?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because people often talk about being very angry when, when a loss happens. And that is actually the one stage of grief that I, again, I hope I'm not in denial talking about this, that I haven't felt as deeply as the other stages. I would say If I was angry about anything, it would be— see, for me, like, to me, sadness, which is the next stage, is right underneath that for me. But I'll talk about anger— would be that I had just— I felt like I was in this chapter of my life that it was just beginning. I mean, like, I just sold that business and I was really excited for whatever was going to come my way. And I was in a brand new relationship and, and I was— it's like the horizon. analogy, like it was all there. And then cancer happened. And I was like, God, really? So if there was anger for me, it was around that. It wasn't, it wasn't, why did this happen to me? And, you know, it wasn't any of that, because cancer happens. I mean, bad things happen. And so for me, it was more this, this anger around, I just, I just wanted to start this next chapter. And I felt like it just got interrupted. And so there was— if there was anger for me, it was around that.

Um, I appreciate you saying that, you know, cancer happens. So it's not because I read a book— I forget which book it was, but it's— the book pretty much said you're not that special.

No.

And what it's referring to was, no matter what's happening to you, so many other people have gone through it. And so if you think you're special, you get, uh, you get self-righteous, and you, you do get angry, and you get, how dare Because how dare me? And I'm so special versus, no, this happens to a lot of people. So why wouldn't this happen to potentially me? So then you shift into sadness. So, yeah, why? How did sadness show? Why do you think or, you know, that sadness became the stronger point for you?

Yeah. And I still live with that one. I mean, this is the one where I just— sorry, I get teary even talking about it. There is just so much ongoing loss in this process that feels just, just heavy. And so in my face, whether again, it's my body, or how relationships have changed in my life, or I've had to let go of planning a lot for the future, because I don't know how long I'm going to live. And there's just this constant reminder of of what I'm letting go of and shedding. And, and it just feels like a lot of mini deaths, you know, just lots of, lots of letting go constantly. And, and so that's the, that's the feeling or the stage of grief that I feel like I'm perpetually navigating. And you have a process?

Like, do you say to yourself, I choose to say goodbye to this, or I choose to Or I memorialize this. Do you— is there a process for you?

Yeah, it's, you know, mine is really about— and this is the kind of final sort of stage of grief, if you believe that model, though honestly I feel like it's this ongoing thing— and that's acceptance, right? So I'm in a perpetual state of acknowledging what is gone or what I'm working on letting go of with accepting. And so if there's any sort of mantra, is is to accept what is. And it's kind of called radical acceptance because I don't want to accept it. Like, the notion of accepting this is radical. So radical acceptance is something I try to practice every single day. Like, this is my life. This is what is. And I can be sad, and I can have some anger around what's gone or what I may never have. But I don't want to hang out there very long. I don't want to live in that space very long. And so practicing this notion of radical acceptance is something I'm like constantly doing, you know, I'm sad about this and then, okay, I'm accepting this.

I love that language, radical acceptance. And is that, is that part of a culture that's out there that you learned about? Or did that come to you one day? Was that, this is radical acceptance?

No, I wish I could coin stuff like that. I'd be a millionaire. No, that comes out of my field in mental health specifically. It comes out of the mindfulness literature and specifically something called dialectic behavior therapy. fancy. But basically, the idea of letting go of struggle. So much of emotional suffering is being attached to the idea of our life or anything for that matter. And so one of the techniques that's often used is acknowledging that that's not there anymore, that won't happen, and that sucks. So instead of saying just accept it, the notion is, no, this is a hard acceptance. And so it's a radical notion. To accept this. And some— there's something comforting about that. It's like witnessing that, yeah, this is really hard to accept. So that's where that came out of.

I love it too, because it's almost a warrior mentality, right? Because it's radical and I'm choosing it, I am being strong in this, right? The language of radicals, there's strength in that.

Yes.

What have been breakthroughs? Like, what have you had realizations of? You know, I know people that'll say Yeah, I'll be like, and I'm not somebody that swears, but they'll be like, you know what, I swear now. Like, I could care less whether someone thinks I swear or not. Like, so I've heard people have, and to them it's a big breakthrough because it's a full expression of themselves. They don't hold back. So what are, what are breakthroughs you've had in this process?

Yeah, that's so beautiful. I mean, if there's a gift, which I'm not even sure I like that whole metaphor with cancer either, but if there's something that, that is, that you gain from this, Right. There is a stripping away of any sort of pretense about who you are or like protective layers, feeling like you need to show up a certain way. Like, I have none of that. And so I would like to think that I was that way before cancer, but I'm going to call BS on myself. I'm— no, I mean, I was like out there in the world, you know, trying to present a certain way most of the time, like many of us do. And again, nothing wrong with that. But there has been a freedom in not doing that anymore. And mostly because, Mike, as I said before, I felt like I didn't have a choice. I mean, when, when you're in a position of being so humbled by an illness and the treatment that I experienced, there is a, there's a forced letting go, a forced shedding, right? And so when I came out of that, I'm like, I don't want to put those layers back on, right?

Right.

I actually I actually liked, weirdly, the intensity of the vulnerability that I experienced at some of the darkest moments, because the most rich interactions with people, that's where the relationships were so real and meaningful and connected. Like, then I'm like, I'm coming out of this craving that. Like, I'm gonna cultivate that from now on. So if there's a breakthrough, I guess it would be that, like, I do relationship. I mean, with my clients, what you see is what you get. In my relationship with family and friends, it's like, it's this, you know, it's just this, take it or leave it.

Well, and that's one of the, what I love about following you. I've, you know, following you on social media is, and I have found this true in my own work too, that like you said, we get caught up in the brand we have to put out there, right? That, that people see us this way and we have to be that person. But when we let that go and we realize, no, I'm not a facade, I'm a human being, and we start to reveal that human being at whatever point that is, whether that's at age 50 or age 55 or age 25— some people figure it out young.

Yeah.

Uh, it's amazing how much more you attract the people you want to be around versus just attracting people, right? There's a big difference. And that's what you're referring to— relationships, relationships, relationships.

Yeah.

Who do you want to surround yourself with?

Right.

Did you find that, that there were people that you saw that were very uncomfortable with being around you and you're like, you know what, that's okay, that's not who I want. I want my— the people in my life who just want to throw their arms around me and support me and cheerlead me right now.

Yeah, it's, it's one of the more common experiences. Um, again, I don't necessarily need to pigeonhole cancer as being the one way that people experience, um, kind of the reveal of who's really there for you. It can be any traumatic event because there's something that can feel scary to others when they witness you be really human, because then it's like, oh God, I'm human too.

Yes.

This might happen to me. I'm not going to be close to that. And, and I have grace and compassion for that. It hurts. It hurts when I see that happening. But here's the other thing is that then other people like show up that you had no idea were like in the wings And they are like running full head into you, like, I'm here, I'm not going anywhere, I, I'm here. Like, oh, oh my God, this is a beautiful thing, right? Um, so it's, it's both, and it's pretty— it's redeeming to me around humanity when I see the beauty of how people show up, and I don't focus on the part— like, I try to have grace when I watch others maybe just Can't, and and and I try not to take that personally. Right? You know.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And what what I love about that is sometimes, and I'm sure you've probably experienced this, when you reveal openly what people call being vulnerable, people step in and go, "Are you okay right now?" Like they think you're emotionally in trouble. Right. Because you're sharing openly, and others are going, "Yes." Like more of that, post more of that. Like please be that. And it's so interesting to watch somebody worry about you because you're revealing just human feelings you have, right? What you're going through and/or other people or what other people are going through. And versus the one who's like cheerleading the willingness to be open and honest. That's all it is. It's just being open and honest, transparent.

Yeah. Yeah, there is a tendency, right, to want to rescue the person who looks like they're suffering. And like, no, I, I'm just suffering and you suffer too. And I'm just choosing to show that part. And I don't need to be rescued. Yeah, I just need to be witnessed. Right.

I love that. Love that. That's so powerful. And speaking of being witnessed, we want people to be able to find you more, learn more of you, be able to follow you more. And you have a podcast.

I do. Yeah. Yeah. So I just launched this podcast very recently after the third diagnosis. And it's called Precarious. And you can find it on any place that podcasts are.

Awesome title.

Yeah, it's really this notion of my awareness of how fragile life is, and that there's just this precarious nature, like around any corner, You know, something may happen. And it is— it's something that I think we all experience. So I just— I'm trying to have these open conversations on the podcast with people who have had precarious moments, because I feel like there's connection there. I feel like when we hear each other's stories, we're not so alone in the humanity of recognizing the fragility of life. So you can find the podcast anywhere. You can also get to it from my website. which is leahbarrett.com. And I've got blog— I write some blogs there as well about what I've been going through. But yeah, those are the ways you can find me and hear more.

I'm going to put the website right now. I'm sending it out on the pages that allow us to show it there. It's going to show up on some of them, so people are going to see that on Facebook or YouTube. So the leahbarrett.com is there. Sam is saying here, you also build stronger relationships by being open and honest.

Yeah.

So not only do you get to learn about those people, you might have lifelong connections with people who get that. So that's, that's so powerful. Leah, I want to thank you. I love the fact you're doing a show called Precarious. I love that it's about talking about precarious moments in life too. I mean, there's just so much synergy there. Thank you so much for, one, being willing to do this, two, for sharing so openly and honestly, and for the inspiration you provide people daily who follow you.

Oh, thanks, Mike. And I want to take a moment to thank your entire family. I— here's an example of a beautiful relationship. So if your family's listening, when I was first diagnosed, and this gets me teary, I felt so, so fragile and so alone. And your family, like Sherry rallied some of your siblings, reached out to me and gave me this like massive gift card for meals. I mean, just, they, I hadn't talked to them. I still haven't talked to them since I was in high school. And, and that level of, of, of reach from afar, of, of saying, I see you, Leah, and we care, was so beautiful. So I just want to thank you, your entire family, your loveliness. It's just awesome.

Well, thank you. I, I absolutely, uh, that blows me away. So thank you for taking a moment to share that. I appreciate that. And I will definitely relay that to those who might have my family who aren't on here live. Sherry's here, I know, because we just saw her comments. So Thank you, Leah. I really appreciate that. Once again, thanks. I want to make sure everybody knows leahbarrett.com as we wrap up this episode. Thank you very much.

Thank you.