The downfalls to defensiveness with Mike and Sam

Welcome to Mike and Sam. Hey, Sam, how you doing today?

I'm doing great, as a matter of fact, and I appreciate you asking.

Absolutely. I loved hearing that. I'm doing great because I don't need glasses anymore when we have these conversations, and that is a woo-hoo! I'm loving this. I can see you without having to, and I don't get glare anymore now when we're, when we're sharing online. So that's great.

So now you know it's me.

That's right. Although I would know your voice anywhere.

Oh, okay. Very good. Hey, what do you want to talk about?

You know, Sam, why don't you just decide? You know, why do I have to decide?

Hey, you don't have to get so defensive about this.

I mean, I just feel like I'm always deciding. Why is it always about me?

Okay, so we're going to— we're going to ratchet this down a little bit, Michael, and And to do that, we're going to talk about defensiveness. And, and, and, and, and we're going to talk about actually the, the downfalls of defensiveness in our life. And, and this is something that, you know, over the years, I've noticed it's taken me a long time to really be able to open up and hear positive feedback in my life. I would want to get defensive when someone mentioned something. It could have been you. And not always, but there were times when I'd kind of get defensive about the way I was doing it, what I was thinking. Well, this is what was going on behind the scenes. And by going into my convoluted story, I wasn't hearing what you or the other person was sharing with me. And so, my defensiveness was actually eliminating the potential for me to get better, to be better, to do something at a higher degree of efficiency or success. And so, defensiveness was a negative aspect in my life. It was pulling me down.

Yeah. And it can come from so many places. I know a lot of times when, I mean, for a long time in my life, I led with not intentionally, not even consciously, but I think subconsciously, I have to be right. And when you have to be right, defensiveness is a tool, you know, that you use constantly because you can't be wrong.

Exactly.

And so, it's a whole different ballgame. You know, it was an awakening I had. I went to an event, a self-development program, and I came home from that. I remember sharing with people, hey, I learned that, you know, I come off as always having to be right and it comes off as self-righteous and even arrogant at times. And I remember a few people saying, that surprised you? And that just crushed me. I was like, what do you mean? That's— of course that surprised me. I never wanted to be that way. I never meant to be that way. But to them, they're like, well, yeah, that's just, you know, you're so sure of yourself. Of course some people are going to view that. But they also were defensive of it and saying, Mike, don't, don't stop being you. Don't stop being you. And And what I learned was, well, they were used to that version. So, they had fallen in love with that version. It doesn't mean it's the right version. So, I could really look in the mirror and say, why was I doing that? What caused me to do that? Where was my heart when I did that? And these are all valid questions when we're being defensive because there could be a million reasons why somebody's in a defensive mode.

Yeah. And the key here is that There's no way to get better at anything unless we're open to ideas, unless we're open to someone else's opinion, unless we're open to someone sharing with us something that we probably don't see ourselves. Because if we saw it ourselves, then we would have dealt with it. But we get absorbed in our story and how we think things are. are or should be. And we don't realize that there's potentially another way. And the other thing that for me got in my way is my upbringing was such that you couldn't show your weaknesses. You couldn't show your faults. And so, it kind of connects back to what you were talking about. It's like I had to show that I was strong, that I always had to be right. And I'm not always right. Nobody's always right. And so, opening up to that and just being willing to say that I'm not perfect, I'm not always right. Boy, what a contribution to the potential of a relationship, first of all, because nobody wants a relationship with someone who's always right. And second of all, it opens my mind up now to hearing what's out there. And when I hear what the possibilities are, when I hear different ways of thinking, When I hear, and I hear and see different issues and challenges that are out there, then when I'm truly hearing what's going on, I can respond in a more favorable way, a more productive way, work towards a solution that's in everyone's interest. And it just totally changes my effectiveness. You know, we're faced with a lot of challenges today that connect with this whole concept of defensiveness. And I think it's defensiveness almost as a society that could be holding us back.

Oh, I think without a doubt. You know, one of the things that I've really learned, and you're aware, I've hosted a few panels recently on race and different perspectives. And I've learned so much just moderating those panels that I was not awakened to until hearing those conversations. And the nice thing was I was coming in as a moderator, so I wasn't trying to come in with a viewpoint to, right, to spread to the world. So I was just there to listen, and what a difference that makes, right? You're not coming in trying to say, well, my viewpoint, your viewpoint, and it can totally open you up to possibilities you had never thought of before. That, that has been good and can be painful because when you are open— and this is why a lot of people are defensive, why many of us can be at times— is that defensiveness can protect emotion. Defensiveness can protect the willingness to look inward at what I could have done or maybe should have done in the past that I did not. Defensiveness protects you from all that.

Mm-hmm.

So, when you drop defensiveness, you have to be able to look in the mirror and go, where was my role here now? Now, what's my role going forward? And that requires transformation. That requires action maybe that could be very uncomfortable. And that's part of letting go of defensiveness, being willing to be uncomfortable. And I think it's a part we don't talk about. We often say the rewards of being open, but we don't also talk about it can be tough. And that's part of the challenge.

Well, and so my question would be this. How do we get beyond that? How do we get beyond— how do we get to the point where we're willing to embrace being uncomfortable? And not just willing to stick our toe into it, but let's jump in. Let's embrace being uncomfortable because only by stepping into that and through that can we get to where we need to be.

I love that. And I love the idea that it's uncomfortable through openness because I know people that love to be uncomfortable, but they do it through agitation, right? Like, they love to be the alter voice in every conversation. And there were times in my life where I would play that role. So I get it. But the problem is that's agitation. That's not opening. That's not about learning. That's about provoking just to prove a point versus provoking to open up possible solutions. Big, big, big difference in those 2 approaches. And so we've got to be willing to be uncomfortable with ourselves to be open versus being uncomfortable with making others uncomfortable, right? There's, there's a difference in why you might be making somebody uncomfortable. The why is huge. If you're making them uncomfortable because you're speaking truths that are spoken with love, that's OK. Right? You don't want to be afraid of that uncomfortable. If you're just doing it to make them uncomfortable, that's just mean in some ways.

Well, and until we're willing to step up and be uncomfortable first, we can't expect more from someone else than we're willing to do ourselves. And so, until we're willing to let down that guard, willing to open up, willing to to allow ourselves to move past our defensiveness, then it's going to be difficult to get someone to be willing to step past theirs.

Yeah. So, let's talk about that, Sam. Let's talk about what are barriers to letting it down. Like, I know a major one. Yesterday, I was stressed out. You know that. We've talked about it since then. When you're stressed out, it's really easy to be defensive. It's crazy easy to be defensive because you're not in a right space of mind or heart potentially Right. To be willing to be open. You just want to shut everything out and get through the day or get through whatever you're dealing with. And I, for me, it was a case of overtired, a little overrun, and I, I even knew it, but it didn't make it easier to let down the guard. I even said to you, I'm overtired today. It's been, but it didn't make it easier to let it down.

So I knew it was difficult. Let me tell you.

Yes. Right. And I knew it. So it's not like it's a matter of you don't know it all the time. Sometimes you do know it. So I think a key component is if we're going to let down defensiveness, we have to take care of ourselves so that we don't, we have less of those days. We're going to have those days. Right? And, but hey, if we have less of those days, we're going to more likely have more of an open heart more days. And that's really important. What do you think are some barriers that are important for us to work on letting down to allow defensiveness to be set aside?

Well, you know, I, this, like so many things that we talk about and that we deal with in our lives and in, in the lives of the people that we help and that organizations we work with, it comes down to mindfulness many times. It's being aware in the moment. And many times, it's kind of like you run through that stop sign and you just didn't see it. Well, the idea is you want to see that stop sign before you get to the intersection, not when you're in the middle of the intersection. And so, the example that you gave about being tired or fatigued or Whatever it is, we need to see this on the front end before we get into a situation where we're just, we're throwing up this defensiveness and really creating a situation where we don't hear the other person and we destroy the relationship. So, the first step to me is that awareness, is that awareness that I can be defensive and I don't want to be defensive. And just making that decision is a positive. First step. And then maybe soliciting someone in your life that you trust, someone that you're willing to listen to, like our relationship, for instance, and asking them, when do you see me getting defensive? When is it that you see me maybe shutting down and not open to a conversation that I could be more present in, more open to, and willingness to experience the other side?

I love that. And I think you and I both know a big component to defensiveness can be the relationship history.

Right.

That can play a massive role because we have stories are running up here about this relationship, about this person that can just bring up the defensiveness lightning fast. And so we especially can see that with friends and family that we have extended history over. Right. You might, Sam, be able to make the most perfect logical decision in business and 1 hour later have a family situation where the defensiveness is flying high. Even though you were completely open an hour before, because it's a different relationship, right? We all can do that. And so I think a key component is, what am I, how am I viewing this relationship before I start this conversation? Am I walking in with love and wanting to learn? Or am I walking in with hesitation, fearful of what they're going to say, already nervous that something's going to go wrong and just bringing this negative toxic cloud with me? Even though it might be valid from past experiences, it's not helpful to this conversation.

The other thing that I would stress is, is that if we set an example of being willingness to listen and being open and responsive and hearing people and not just recoiling back into a defensive shell, then I think we have the opportunity to positively encourage other people to do the same. And it's not, you know, we're not the defensiveness police. It's not our responsibility to, you're being defensive. You should be listening better, blah, blah, blah. That's not our responsibility. And we know that. But like so many things, the example we set will be like a cascading ripple in a pond. And that example of being open and willing to listen and willing to acknowledge where we've been wrong And also being appreciative of the, the insights that the other individuals are sharing with us sets an example that hopefully inspires others to take that same path.

I love that. I think a great thing for all of us to think about when we go into conversations is, I am grateful for this person potentially opening my mind to a different viewpoint or a different thought than I would have had without them in my life. If I just think that before the conversation, And it can make a huge, huge, huge difference in how we view the actual conversation.

Hey, I enjoyed the conversation today, Mike.

So did I. Thank you, Sam, for making that so enjoyable, by the way. I appreciate that.

And if everyone, anyone else that's been watching either live or recorded, don't hesitate to go to youtube.com/CenterForRespect or youtube.com/SamSilverstein. Subscribe to both of us and click on that bell so you'll get notifications. And if you have thoughts or ideas for future conversations, feel free to put them in the notes, and we'll see you next time.