S1EP08 - How's That for Masculine Energy with Jenni Ogden

This is The Capital Flex. I'm Naseem Sayani. This show codifies the capital playbook because no founder should have to learn the hard way. We talk about what really happens behind closed doors, the bias, the breakthroughs, and the things no one says out loud. If you've ever walked into a room and felt the system wasn't built for you, you're in the right place. Hello and welcome to The Capital Flex. My guest today is Jenny Ogden. She is a visionary founder, creative producer, and entrepreneur who founded a company called Eyecue Productions, which specializes in projection design, 3D mapping, and XR, AR, and VR formats. Jennie is at the forefront of building experiences that leverage disruptive technology to deliver live experiences using spatial computing, VR, and AR technologies. It's really fantastic the things that Jennie is able to do. She's also my neighbor and lives maybe a stone's throw away from me here in LA, which is also a lot of fun. So I'm so excited that you're here today, Jennie. Thanks for joining me.

Oh, thank you. I'm excited to join your podcast.

Thank you. Thank you. So for everyone listening, uh, tell us a little bit more about you and about your company.

I'm an entrepreneur, founder, and creative producer. I work across the board in immersive emerging technologies and formats and entertainment and social impact storytelling. So most of my personal projects have a social good. I want to create businesses and stories storytelling and experiences that leave the world a better place. That's, that's my main thing. I've been working in emerging formats for years. I was VP of New Media for the Producers Guild of America and helped champion the Innovation Award for the Producers Guild as well.

Oh, it's so great. It's so interesting because you're, you're unique relative to a lot of the other founders that I have in the series because most of them are health tech or fintech or it's going to sound strange— more kind of traditional in terms of their founder profile, but you're coming straight out of entertainment and creative production and a whole different world of founder life that we don't, that I don't often get to interact with because it's just not a space that I'm in. So this is great. It's good to have this much variety in the conversation. So I'm glad, I'm glad you're here. So as you know, the foundation of the podcast is to get into fundraising stories with female founders because it can be such an adventure in so many different ways. And, uh, in some cases it's great and we secure the check and things go well. And, but in the large majority of the cases, we run into a lot of bias and issues and conscious or unconscious, and it makes the journey of fundraising a lot harder for, for women in the ecosystem. Uh, and I know, I know you have some of these fun stories to talk through. And so what I'm hoping to do with this series is get into some of those stories. And really unpack them and talk about what happened. How did you react in the moment? What's the big lesson learned? And then if we can leave some good insights and toolkits for other founders as they listen to these, you know, how do we make sure other founders are ready for similar experiences and, you know, don't have to deal with it, you know, in the same way that we might have the first time it, we saw it happen. So we can start from anywhere. I know, I, I know one of your stories, so if you wanted take us through that a little bit and then we can just talk through it.

Yeah, absolutely. So my latest venture is we're building a platform that empowers and rewards activism in the world. So it's a game platform and the first game will be based on eco-activism. So it's an environmental project. And I met this particular investor through actually different conscious investing groups. So Conscious Leaders and Investors. Doing these different salons and he requested a meeting. He knew a little bit about what I was creating and he requested a meeting with me and we set up a Zoom and I took him through what we're building, the technology, the tech stack. It's, you know, a novel tech stack. So it's, it's definitely in alignment with, you know, what investors are looking for. And, and then he asked me if I had a masculine partner. Masculine partner, a masculine partner. And I said, what do you mean by a masculine partner? And he said, well, is, is one of the founders a man? And I said, no, this is a, a woman-owned and led company. I mean, every, all of my leadership are women in this company. And, you know, and I'm proud of that. And he said, well, I could fund this. It's a great, it's fully fundable project. I really like it, but you would need to bring in a male partner to pitch to our fund. I said, why? And he said, well, we're, I think he called it a, like a fraternal group, VC group. And he felt like he could fund this company if I had a male partner, but I couldn't come to the meeting. I can't pitch to them as a woman. I was kind of shocked, like we all know that. Women only get like 2% of the funding out there. That's, that's pretty common knowledge. I've never, I never expected somebody to say it out loud like that.

What happens at these pitch meetings that you can't walk in and pitch them?

I'm not welcome. I'm the CEO of my company, but I can't come to the meeting.

That is so strange. What a strange thing to say out loud.

It is. It is. And, and he suggested that I get a male partner and I just kind of, I kind of said, well, obviously we're not a match. We're not your investor for this company, you know, because I have my company. Uh, why would I bring in a male partner that might not even be a, a good, a positive addition to the team just so I can have a meeting with your group? I was surprised. I mean, again, no shock, but I didn't expect somebody to say it out loud. Like you, you can't pitch your own business.

So like, there's so many layers of problems here, right? Because one, like what happens in this room that you can't have a woman in the room pitching there? I don't even know if I want to ask that question. But then two, even if you were to, let's say, bring in a friend who's wonderful, who's male, to come and be the person who pitches, from that point on, like he's not going to talk to you. About anything, he's still going to continue to want to speak to that person, which undermines—

who may or may not know anything about what we're doing.

No, exactly.

Right.

And then if the pitch meeting is a problem, what is every other interaction going to look like from that point forward?

That's, uh, that's what I really— I should thank him because it made me really sit back and think, like, I know that when you're starting a new venture or even jumping into a new film or something, that's a long-term collaboration. You really need to pick your team. And I've always had this, this lifeboat analogy. If they're not somebody you would want in your lifeboat, if you're going to get stranded on a desert island, then that's not who you should be. And I realized that applies to the investors that you talk to, because it's going to be a really a long-term relationship. And especially with, with this, this venture, it's very much mission-driven as well. And I need investors that believe in me, believe in the vision, and are passionate about the impact that we're going to create. Not only the financial impact, which is solid, obviously gaming is larger than entertainment and sports combined. So, you know, there's definitely an ROI for, you know, for gaming, but this one has social impact. Side to it that's a big part of the mission and embedded in the company, and that needs to shine through. And, you know, an investor that's not willing to speak to me because I'm female is definitely not somebody, but bigger picture, I think it's really important who's investing in your company. And as desperate as founders are to raise funding, you need to be willing to say no. Yeah, absolutely.

Oh, absolutely. Where did you meet this person?

It was, it was at a group that hosts events with conscious founders and conscious investors. So people that are interested in mission-driven businesses.

Okay. At the outset, you would've assumed pretty good alignment right up front.

Yeah. Generally I'll take a meeting with anybody I meet at a salon or gathering like that because we've automatically supposedly have alignment on, on that, on wanting to, to create businesses that leave a better world, basically.

Yeah, no, absolutely. So it's a, and that, that's a pretty significant red flag when you need a masculine partner to go do the pitch.

And he reached out to me for a meeting knowing I'm a woman and I'm a founder. So I don't know why he just assumed if I had a business, I had a male partner. I don't know.

Oh my goodness. That's, that floors me that, that you can be that blatant about things like that.

But lesson learned. I mean, I, I, I, I didn't choose to say, okay, to my boyfriend, can you pretend to be my co-founder?

Right. Right. No, it's just, it's just, it's a hard pass. You know, it's not, it's not the right check. It's not the right money. Have you had other weird things like that happen?

That's been the worst of it. I've had a lot of, venture studios that say, well, we'll build it for you and take 50%.

Oh, sure.

Kind of.

Yeah.

And then I've got a talented CTO on board that I have full faith in, in her technical abilities and her ability to lead this, this, the development team for this. And she happens to be a woman and I don't, I don't need another team to come in and do it for us. So that, so that's been a big conversation. I think it's just a matter of finding people, like I said, that are really aligned with what we're creating.

Yeah. Yeah. You told me a little bit about some other kind of lessons learned from previous co-founder experiences that you've had and, and what you've, what you've seen people do or not do and what you've kind of taken to heart on, on now how you show up in rooms. So tell, tell us a little bit about, about those things.

I think most people, especially people that work in technology or anything technology adjacent, has heard the term tech bro, and especially with the giant billionaire tech bros out there. And it, it really is a problem. And with a former company that I, that I was a co-founder of, which was a disruptive technology and entertainment company as well, very different from what I'm doing now, but, you know, in the tech space. And I found that my co-founders would constantly either minimize or sabotage everything I brought to the table. So it was a problem. And so when I started building this team, I was conscious about the team I built and I hate to say it, but I felt really strongly about having a women-led team so that that didn't happen to me or any of my team members. Anybody that I brought, bring in later doesn't have to experience that.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think the choosing co-founders is a really big decision because it either can go really well or really badly. And you learn a lot going through those experiences, right?

Exactly.

What have become your guardrails or your kind of telltale details of whether something's going to work or not from a co-founder perspective?

Well, I, for this, for this vision, I spent the last 2 years developing exactly what I want it to be. I've put a lot of heart and soul into this one. So I needed somebody that would come on board and be additive and not doubt it, doubt the vision, doubt the idea. So that was a big part of it. Somebody that can be co-creative and collaborative and try and be competitive because, you know, as a co-founder, I'm looking for somebody who wants to be the CTO to my CEO. So that was important. It's just a matter of making sure that we're in alignment with the vision and what we want to create, and then really willing to roll up our sleeves and represent, you know, the heart of it. I guess, I guess for this one, it was also, you know, making sure that we don't lose sight of the reason, the why.

Yeah, no, it makes a big difference to have that kind of alignment and cooperation and, and real commitment to, to why you're doing the work, right? Yeah. No, that's great. What other, as you've been fundraising, what other big takeaways have you had when it comes to what you've seen as far as how maybe how men and women show up differently when it comes to fundraising in this ecosystem? Have you noticed anything or any—

of how the difference between how we represent ourselves and how men do? Yes. Men come in with the numbers and the ask, and we tend to come in, and I know I do this, I come in with, with the emotional story of, of the why and the passion behind the project. And I would hope that investors look at both, look at the founders they're getting behind, but the men, the men will come charging in. With a big ask right out of the gate. And I should be asking you this as a, as a, you know, a venture fund owner that I know that people say lead with the numbers, lead with the numbers, lead with the numbers. And I lead with the story. I still do that.

So, yeah, no, it's absolutely right. I mean, when I, uh, it's a big part of the coaching and feedback I do with female founders all the time is I need you to lead with the money. And I, I, I care about the story. The personal stories are nice, but if If we get to page 5 and you haven't told me how much it's worth, then we're gonna have to pause and start over again. Uh, because it just takes, sometimes it takes too long and sometimes, you know, the personal story maybe can come later and it doesn't have to be the first thing you do because it's, it's, this is, you are here to make money and I'm here to make money. And so this, right? And so we have to get to the numbers really quickly. And when you hear male founders pitch, there's almost never a personal story. It is just the business. It's here's the market opportunity, here's the business I've built, and here's how much it's worth, and here's how I'm gonna go get it. There's almost never a personal story, or if there is, it comes much later. And I think, and it, but it's just that we're wired differently, right? We're wired, women are wired for empathy cuz it's, it's just how we're wired and it works. It works, it works in our favor in a lot of different rooms and it's great. But when we're pitching in a money-minded room, we just have to organize the thoughts differently.

Yeah. Organize and talk about the money and the, the opportunity and yeah. Yeah. And then the why, the why beyond the money.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely. What have been your more positive fundraising experiences? Have you had any really great conversations and what do you think has made them that way?

Honestly, it was, it's the idea and the why that people are passionate about. I've had a lot of people say that they can't be a lead investor. Nobody wants to be a lead investor. I've, I've heard some people say that you want to be further along before you start talking. This This might not be a VC play. This might be an angel investor play. I've heard that. What I haven't heard ever is it's a bad idea or that it's not amazing or that it's not timely, you know, and needed in the world, you know, something like this. So people really get the vision. They get, you know, when we get into the brass tacks of what we're building and why and what it will be able to do, I've gotten all positive feedback. 100% positive feedback. So that's, I mean, that's really good news. And we're, we're building a proof of concept now and we'll have a local activation that's, I think will open our seed instead of going for the seed before we have anything to show.

Okay. Yeah. So that way you can show people what it looks like and have them touch and feel it in a way before they start to put money against it.

Yeah. Well, and a testament to the vision is I have a partnership with Downtown Santa Monica and we're going to have a 10-week activation to playtest a proof of concept of what the games can do.

So, well, that's great. Oh, that'll be really fun. Oh, amazing. Okay, good. So you can really bring people to it for a little while.

Yeah, I can actually show them like, this is what we're gonna build and this is like a, a proof of concept of the bigger picture.

Yeah. So do you think there's an opportunity for more of the entertainment world to be involved as investors in addition to venture?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's a lot of, well, there's not— I shouldn't say a lot, but a lot of social impact filmmaking and grants and that sort of thing that, that are available. They don't typically look at gaming, but they're realizing that they really look— need to look at the multi-format transmedia storytelling world and reaching people in new ways. So rather than traditional filmmaking, so, and then I think in the impact space also, like The inspiration you might get from storytelling, because there's definitely a storytelling aspect to this. That's the inspiration, but where's the tangible impact? And this is tangible impact that we can drive, motivate, and prove. We can track it.

Got it. And what, so what happens after the experience, after the 10 weeks that you'll have it on the ground in Santa Monica? What do people do after they leave the experience? If you give us a sense of what it'll feel like when we're there and then when we leave, what, what happens?

Well, hopefully we're going to, we're going to get on board with a local campaign sponsor partnership and the users that are doing some learning, gamified learning and tasks on behalf of the environment in partnership with this local grassroots effort can continue with that grassroots effort, continue learning, continue following on social media. And then they'll also be invited when we have a beta out for beta testing. They can be our first beta testers, and then we'll be able to repeat what we did in Santa Monica with other cities. Oh, okay.

Oh, that's good.

So we'll be able to keep it going while we fundraise for the bigger vision. Okay.

You can take it on the road, which will be a lot of fun.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, good.

Good, good, good. Okay.

That's great.

So, and how can, uh, everyone listening help? What can we do to support what you're doing?

First of all, the activation will be open. For 10 weeks in downtown Santa Monica from November 7th through January 19th. So first of all, come down. We're going to have a dome set up, an immersive dome set up next to the ice rink, the annual ice rink. And then out of the dome experience, we'll be taking people down to Third Street Promenade to complete tasks on behalf of the environment through the game. And so it'll be an opportunity to playtest the game. Anybody interested in coming on board as a pre-seed investor or lead investor or even sponsor. Can absolutely reach out and reach out to me directly. We can share my email. It's Jenny with an I, J-E-N-N-I, at IQProductions.com. And that's E-Y-E, the letter Q, Productions.com. And then philanthropic supporters can also make donations through our fiscal sponsor.

No, that's great. That is great. That's so exciting. Well, thank you so much, Jenny, for joining us. I think there, Your story is like jaw-dropping, uh, that, that kind of thing can happen with an investor. I'm like still really shocked having heard that story a few times. It still kind of blows my mind.

Uh, mine too.

Yeah. Oh my God. Do you have like a, a final takeaway or something you wanna make sure female founders know before they go into fundraising?

Stick to your guns. If this is your vision and you've got a bad gut reaction, they're not the investor for you. So. I guess use the lifeboat analogy. Is this somebody you'd want in your lifeboat? Because I think that with investors, it's just like a business partner and you're going to need to deal with them and their expectations for a long time, long term. So make sure that they're people that you think are on board with what you want to create in the world.

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. Wonderful. Well, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. This was fun.

Yes, definitely. Thank you so much.

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