Bone Loss Over 40: What ACTUALLY Works (and What's a Waste of Time)

Osteoarthritis and osteoporosis, bone loss in midlife. As if we're not getting hit with enough things as we age. What is going on with bone loss? Why is this conversation so popular lately? Can we actually reverse it? What do we do to prevent it? All the things around bone loss and what happens if we just ignore it. Today we're going to dive deep into that conversation. I've got the founder of Hack My Age podcast, I've got Zora Benhamou here, and the reason I wanted to have her on is not only is she an incredible spokesperson— more than a spokesperson— researcher, advocate for aging well. She is incredible in that space, but she recently has gone through her own journey, which she has shared very publicly. She is dealing with a lot of this, with that bone loss problem, and she's working to turn it all around. And she is quite the expert when it comes to this topic. So there's a lot of things I wanted to interview her about today, but I want to dive into that conversation because, Zora, my gosh, you were walking through it, and you're the one that is aging well, or supposed to Aging Well. So, thank you for being here today.

Thanks for having me. It's a real honor to be here. So, thanks for the invite.

Zora, tell us what's happening here. Because, first of all, can you share a little bit about your background and what you do in this world and how you help women age so well?

Okay. So, we should probably start with gerontology because nobody knows what a gerontologist is, or they confuse it with a geriatric physician. This is— that's a physician who deals with older adults. But I study aging. In longevity. So, this is something— my interest is to understand the whole life course from birth to death, not just the older adults, because we want to understand why are we aging, how are we aging, why do we get certain diseases. And it starts in childhood or intergenerational, right? So, we need to understand the whole life course. And that really interested me. But it's not only from a biological perspective, but it's from a psychological and a sociological perspective as well. So, we just like kind of put all these pieces together because it's not just the foods you eat, and the exercise that impacts aging, but so many other things that we can unpack today.

So, when you say that, you said that you're explaining that most of us have not heard of that. We've not heard of a gerontologist. Like, that's not—

what is that?

How do you even become one? And when you say that you're— it's different than what we are assuming it is, why aren't there many of you doing that?

Oh, I don't know why. Honestly, it is fascinating, but it's not a sexy topic. It's honest. I've told people to say, hey, you know, you got to change your Instagram because gerontology kind of— it's, it seems negative. And I thought, no, no, that's not at all what I want to do. I want to help us age well. We have a menu of choice with aging. Yes, there are older adults who are fatigued or hunched over, who are sick, who have diseases, but there's a whole other group of people who aren't. And unfortunately, our brain focuses only on the negativity. We don't see all those positive stories. But we do have a choice. And I'm sure we all can think of somebody who are in their 80s or 90s and sharp as a tack and moving really well. It exists. And we just, for some reason, are thinking it's— that's an anomaly, and it's not. And we can change the course and the trajectory of aging by certain lifestyle and diet and habits and things that we can do to impact even our genetic makeup.

So social media really, and media, confuses aging well with age appearance, how we look physically. And believe me, I've signed up. I had my eyes done. I shared it publicly. I had my eyelids done. And I'm not afraid of those types of things. And I'm all into a lot of those things to look different. But there is a big difference between appearance, fixing the paint, fixing the coating, and actually aging from the inside out. What's your take sort of around that conversation? Because I know you you're heavily online, you see a lot of this, and I've even seen you speak out a little bit about filters or, you know, fixing everything and the difference there.

Well, personally, I think everybody just do what you want to do. It's your life and no one's here to tell you what to do. If it makes you happy to get a facelift or to use a filter, it's your choice. Now, when it comes to my own personal choice, I don't like using filters. I just want to show this is what age— it's one of the choices. Like it or don't like it. I think even when I shared our episode together, somebody looked at you and me and they're like, "Oh, she looks great, but Zora needs to do something." I was like, "Well, that's okay. That's the way it is." But they— we have a choice. And this is what I think people should understand. And unfortunately, there is too much criticism for— you're either too beautiful or too ugly. You did something or you didn't do something. There will always be judgment. Now, in terms of aging well, then we want to have examples in our life of how we want to age well. So if you're somebody who doesn't want to go for the facelift or wants to age like Paulina Porizkova, even though she's kind of blessed with beautiful genes and she's just no filters, and fine, you go follow her. If you don't and you want to find the one who has like the best plastic surgeon, like, go follow her. It, again, it is our choice. But in terms of the pressure that women have, then that's another story, because we feel that, oh, now I, I gotta go get a facelift, or now I save $10,000 or $100,000, whatever it is these days to do that. And again, it's life. You, you have to have that. You have that choice, but you do you is what I think we should do. But for the WHO, for example, has said that we do need to have realistic examples for aging. So when I was doing my master's, I wanted to, I had to do a project on using Instagram inspirational people who are aging amazing and they could do gymnastics and they were in the Olympics and And so, the criticism that I got with that is that, "Well, people are going to think it's unrealistic." And I said, "Well, I think it's possible, so it inspires me." And again, I can't control what goes in your head, but they would prefer that we use something that's somewhere in the middle so that people don't think it's so intangible that they actually will start to walk and get off the sofa and start to do the healthy habits rather than go, "Ugh, you know, I'll never get to the Olympics and I'm not even going to look at that." Does that make sense?

Yeah, it totally makes sense. And, you know, just to kind of— I want to touch on that appearance conversation, and then I want to really get into sort of from the inside out and what health really is, and especially bone loss and how that is so, so critical. But when I look at people that are doing the fixing of everything, and that's me included, I'll throw myself in that box. Like, I'm the one with the hair extensions, I'm the one who got my eyelids done. Like, I'm a fixer, I do that. I also am very aware I'm not doing that for anyone else, I'm doing it for me, and it changes my mood. So, I'm not trying to have anyone think I'm 20 or 30. I'm clearly not, and I'm 54, and I'm proud of 54, and I look 54 to me. When we do the fixing stuff, it's really for us. And like the woman that commented that you made that comment about that video, first of all, Zora looks great. If you're looking at some videos, she does physically look incredible. So, the woman was just crazy. But I feel that women that make those negative comments to others, that's something inside them. And the same reason people fix things, that's it's something inside them. It's a confidence thing. And I think confidence, no matter what we choose, whether we're fixing things or just embracing it all, whatever it is, confidence is the key thing. Because when you have that confidence and you're in a good mood, you do live better. You are more likely to work out. You are more likely to be social, to have connection, to eat healthier. Like, all those things go with confidence. So, kind of aligned with what you said, I don't care whether people choose to do things or not, but I just wanted to point out, I believe it's really for the person doing it. It's not for other people. Like we don't fix things for other people, right? That being said, I'm not delusional at all knowing that it has no— it doesn't matter what my hair or my eyes or whatever look like. If I'm not taking care of things from the inside out, I could have major problems including bone loss. And I'm sure this was something that hit you kind of off guard. Can you walk us through sort of what did you find out and what were you navigating when it comes to osteoporosis? When you first heard those terms before you had any tests done or figured out what was going on, what was your understanding of all of that?

Yeah, when I was first told that I had osteoarthritis, I didn't know, had no idea what that meant. I'm 54 now, just like you, and I was told probably in my late 40s sometime. And I, I just said, whatever. And then I continued my life because it's not that bad, and you can move on with it. And you just say, you can— I'm going to reverse this. And then as I got— the pain got worse, and you lose more range of motion. And I'm going to explain a little bit actually what osteoarthritis is, because too many people think it's osteoporosis. And osteoporosis is the loss of bone density, right? Your bones become a bit more fragile. Osteoarthritis is a degeneration of the joint. Okay. It's the joints. The head, for me, it was the head of the femur. And then you start to lose the cartilage. Then you have pain and you can get spurs and all a lot of things happen. It's just very painful and it just gets progressively worse. And so when I understood that, I, I said, well, okay. Um, What am I going to do to reverse this? I'm a biohacker. Hey, you know, and I have very good contacts and I have access to wonderful doctors. And I attempted to reverse it over the years. And the things that I did actually was things that were working very well in terms of bringing relief. I got some range of motion back. The pain was subsided. But then those biohacks just weren't working for me anymore. And it interestingly coincided with more loss of my hormones and as I going through the menopause transition. So, there came a point where the doctors said, "Look, you really do need to have a surgery," and you dive deeper and deeper. And, I tried so many things just like you have when you— with your back. You spend the money, you spend the time, you just want your health back. And, it was a real shock for me and for the people around me who know me because I walk the talk. I'm doing quote unquote everything right, everything that we all should be doing. So how in the world could this happen to me? And that's because I was set up for this. I had 9 of the 12 risk factors of osteoarthritis. And when you're set up for this and it seems like there's no win or lose, you couldn't, you just couldn't, you can't escape it. And after a while, you accept it. And, and after a lot of tears and why me, and you go through the whole process, and, and you do associate your, your being, your person, as the person of longevity, the person of aging well. And then you are living in an 80-year-old body.

And so I have some, some questions here about this. So you said you found out and you were in your, your 40s. First of all, how did you find out? Like, what was the test, and what were the symptoms And what were the markers that you said? You said you had a bunch of the markers. What are those?

Yeah, so I felt— you feel the pain in the hip. It's so good that you're asking these questions because people go, oh, I feel hip pain. And, and again, you have to get a diagnosis for this. So in the beginning, I was told I had hip impingement. And so you may have one of these, these stories, and that's when the bone is, is wonky. It just doesn't fit, like there's a little nodule and it's not really fitting in so well. And I said, well, why did— why am I like that? And they said, well, you were born with this. You're just lucky you lasted until your 40s. Like, this should have been a problem a long time ago. And I got an MRI. So for me, the diagnosis through an MRI— I've done X-rays because sometimes doctors prefer X-rays, but what they really— when they had to dive deeper, they really wanted to see what was happening with the cartilage. And you could see through an MRI that there is less and less cartilage. And then you won't try to regrow the cartilage. I tried PRP injections, tried so many things. So you do start with I— you lose as well range of motion. So then it became hard to mount a bike. It became hard to get into a bathtub. It became hard to have sex. And my husband and I, we were like, we got to find a new position. Like, this is— and then it was painful. Then it was no fun. And then you're not looking forward to it. So then it's— it changes a lot of things.

When you say hard, like, so Was it actually like you were just stiff, like it's like a tit, like it's not moving? And then, what was the pain like? Because I want— there's a lot of women that just think they've got pain or stiffness with aging. How do we know what's like normal and where, no, wait, this is not normal, this is the red flag?

Such a good question that nobody really asked me before, but I think you would know exactly how to get into the mind of your listeners. And it is a good point. So, I'm hyperflexible and I have to go through one— that's one of the 9 risk factors. And I thought it was really cool because I could do a yoga pose without even trying. I was just born that way. And so when you start to lose, like, let's say I— you were doing a frog, you know, where you have your legs in the back, you, you just couldn't get into that position anymore. It just— you felt it was a block. And then some positions where, let's say you were to sit in a lotus position, and then you're stuck, you're like, I, I can't put it back. It just— it's almost like it clicks. It has to click back into place, or you have to move through a really painful point of the joint until you get it back in. And, and that— when you get to that point, you're like, this is, this is not normal. You will start limping, then you don't really notice it until somebody else points it out, and they're like, you're limping. You're like limping again and again and again. And, uh, because your body is trying to compensate for the pain, it's looking for other areas to, to find comfort, and it's just a signal, a warning signal, like, don't go here. But when you have, like, I was able to do the splits, no problem. And then you, you get less, and then you're like, why can't I do this? I just— and it gets less and less. And then suddenly you're walking with your feet parallel to get into a car. You try to go in parallel. You can't just stick one leg in and then out the other. And so when you realize, I can't get in the car anymore, I got to go see a doctor. This is not normal because you're your body is just trying to avoid the pain.

Wow.

Does that make sense?

Okay. So, yeah, no, it makes sense. And, it's important to understand what the root is, which you actually figured out because sometimes hip pain can just be— can be pain from something else. For example, I had hip pain for years, but it's because I had no disc between L5-S1. So, it was back-related. So, my hips were overcompensating. Fix the back, the hip pain went away. So, I think it's important for people to understand the distinction. Now, you had said earlier that you had a bunch of the risk factors. You had a bunch of the genetic markers.

What were those? So they're the genes. You're born with certain genes that are more inflammatory, like they're good for certain inflammation and bad for other inflammation. You were born— I was born with these wonky bones. So that's partly genetic as well. Being female, can't change that.

Well, maybe you ask, but yeah, exactly.

You're born. So you have the loss of hormones, menopause, that also makes— increases the risk. And then I was hyperflexible, hip dysplasia, it's when your hips just sort of get out of the socket. Then you athletic, well, you're trying to be good, trying to exercise, but you're, you know, you're, you're, you're at more at risk, but being sedentary also is a risk. So you don't want to be sedentary either. And it doesn't mean that I overexercised. I'm very athletic, just like you, although you've done a lot more than me. But, I remember speaking to some of my regenerative medicine doctors and I would say, "Did I do this to myself? Am I over— did I overtrain or something?" And, she said, "You are not a professional athlete. This doesn't happen to professional athletes at your age. So, it's nothing you've done and you did well to exercise because that probably prolonged and you were able to get away from surgery a bit." a bit, a bit longer. Um, if you have a job where you're lifting heavy things, obviously a lot of movement, that also is, is a, is a risk factor. I don't know if I was— that was maybe 3, 4, maybe 7 or 8 of those. Smoking, of course, smoking is a high risk factor of all diseases of aging. Being obese as well. And when you have osteoarthritis, what do you do? You go to Dr. Google, you find out what, what should I do, how do I reverse this. And what everything I read was lose weight. But I was like, this is not my case. I felt so alone. So, I really appreciate you allowing me to open this can of worms for women who feel like, I don't know, I'm athletic, I'm lean, like, why is this happening to me? You don't have to be obese, but if you are obese, that makes sense. There's obviously more pressure on that, those joints. So, weight loss is one of the solutions, but it wasn't for me. So, those are the major risk factors. And if I think of any more, I'll I'll put them out. But, but more or less, a lot of us are in this camp, and we want to be able to preserve our joints. And there was— honestly, doesn't seem like there was anything I really could have done. I could have delayed it, possibly. Maybe I would have had a lot earlier. I know women who do have these surgeries in their 20s and 30s because they really have been set up. Oh, and having injuries is another, another thing. Injuries that maybe are never resolved. And that's something— that's one thing I, I think in list of sort of, uh, what could I have done? Maybe I could have recovered better from exercise. I was somebody who just pushed it and pushed it. A little pain, you know, no big deal. Just push right through it. And, uh, and maybe my body did need time to recover. And again, maybe that just would have delayed the surgery or I don't know if— would I have no— I would never know if I would ever be able to reverse it. But most of the time it's really difficult to reverse osteoarthritis. Osteoporosis, on the other hand, is another story.

Few things. If you did not work, we're going to talk about solutions obviously today too, but if you did not address the osteoarthritis, you just, you're like, well, it's pain, it's stiff. What continues to happen? Does it get worse? Does it spread?

What—

take us down, like, if you do not address it, and is it linked at all to osteoporosis? Do they go together?

They don't go together. Because when I originally checked my bones up until most recently, I never had a bad DEXA scan. DEXA is the scan that you take to look at the density of the bones. And then I took another scan, which we can talk about later on, called the REM scan. And, and most recently, even during the osteoarthritis situation before my surgeries, I was told I have very strong bones. So despite having bad joints, I had strong bones. So you can, and you can have reverse too. So it's, it's not, um, it's one doesn't go hand in hand. So I, I'm glad, yeah, we can be really clear that they're two two totally different things. And if you don't do anything with osteoarthritis, it's a degenerative disease. I hate that word, and I was avoiding that word like the plague. Yeah, um, it is not a wear and tear disease. I've interviewed several experts and world leaders in osteoarthritis, and they say this is not a wear and tear, which really surprises a lot of people. They're like, no, you're wearing out the joints, so it's a wear and tear thing. No, it's not a wear and tear thing. It's, it's an inflammatory thing. It's a cascade of inflammation. And, um, and so I think this is to understand. That's why I thought, I wonder if maybe I had some injuries in my life that weren't fully resolved, even though I felt fine. Maybe it just kind of was kept going, but it will, it will usually get worse. But I'm still, I think there's things that we can do.

Yes. But so, but somebody listening to this, if they're feeling like, well, gosh, some of the stuff you're describing, I have that. You want them, I'm assuming, to know not to ignore that and to have hope around it. Because if they do ignore it, like you said, it could continue to get worse. So it's not going to just magically get better on its own. It could get worse. And what I didn't get, could it spread to other areas? So like, for example, if you have this in your knees or your hips and you're not addressing it, is that something that, because it's inflammation or it's just systemic, that it's going to go other areas, or is it more that your knees and your hips would get worse?

I can't answer that question fully confidently. I— my intuition says it's not something that spreads. It's not like a wildfire, because honestly, my first injury was when I was 23 or 24 skiing. I tore my ACL. It's gone, never repaired it. If there's anywhere in my body that should have osteoarthritis, it should be my knee. Sure. Now, some people have said, well, because you were compensating for the knee, you probably had a small— yeah— shift in your, in your gait, and then you put more weight on the other hip, and that could have been— so that's why some people say injuries could be related. But it is— I don't think it is, but don't quote me on that. Makes sense.

I think, though, you would probably agree that And that theory makes sense. Like if you have a bad knee or you have bad hip, you're going to overcompensate. So, you might create wear and tear someplace else. But I also think inflammation anywhere in the body creates a trigger response. So, you have inflammation in your body, it's like toxic overload. You're going to have inflammation, your body works harder in all different areas. So, you might start feeling pain in other areas, I would imagine.

Yeah. I mean, it's, again, what is it? What's the definition of inflammation and where is it? Is it the gut? Is it your cells? Is it the fat cells? Is it— there's so many different types of inflammation that I think we'd have to be better able at defining it. But I wouldn't say it was like contagious kind of a thing. But if you're inflamed, then yeah, you're probably the way you're living or something you're doing. It's possible that that transfers over. When we think about— there was something I wanted to mention in terms of inflammation, whatever. It just split my mind. But there is— it's not— I just don't think it would go exactly hand in hand. But I, for example, and I know many women in my community as well who are similar, will go, "Oh, I feel joint pain. I know I have inflammation." And then they get their hs-CRP, their C-reactive protein marker. It's a blood test that people can get to see the just general inflammation in the body. It's nearly zero. Like, what? I know, and I was one of those too. It's like, "Why is— I have— I know I have inflammation in my body, but that number keeps keeps coming out like everything's crystal clean. So yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, and I think inflammation's kind of become this buzzword, especially with the— with all the peptides and everything. We hear that word a lot, but that's a good point. Like, if you're checking your blood and you're not seeing that high C-reactive protein, maybe it's not that, and we need to redefine that. That makes sense.

I could see you as being somebody like that when you were checking with your back and you feel it, you know, but you lead a very healthy lifestyle. CRP.

In my case, I did have very high blood markers before I had— when I had my implant rupture, when I was living in mold, I had a lot of stuff going on. So, it's hard for me to know what was actually creating the inflammation. There were so many variables, ruptured implant, ruptured disc, like I had so many things. But, I do know now those markers are back to normal and I also don't feel pain. So, whether I can prove it or not, I totally get that's anecdotal, but I felt when I felt like that, my blood markers matched it. But I understand also people do feel and don't have blood markers that match.

So, yeah, you never know. There's other markers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Okay, I want to talk a little bit about osteoporosis and what you discovered there and how that's different.

So osteoporosis is something that is concerning a lot of women in midlife, and it's because that's when we have changes in the loss of our hormones. There's loss of estrogen starts to decline, progesterone, testosterone. These are the main hormones that you've talked about them so much, and so hopefully kind of know what they are. But, when you lose those hormones, we always call them "protective." They are very protective in many ways. They're an anti-inflammatory, and they help lubricate the joints. They help build bone. They stop bone loss. So, we see, if you were to look under scan, where you can see that we're starting to lose bone. And, we are starting to lose bone in our mid-30s. So, it's something that's happening, but we just don't see it. We don't feel it. That's what we call osteoporosis is the silent killer because you don't feel your bones getting brittle. And that's when we are only 65, we get— usually that's when insurance covers a scan, but by then you already in deep into osteoporosis. So osteoporosis is different. And I think there's a lot of information running around now, especially around DEXAs, and we're all quite concerned. And many of us are getting scanned earlier to see where are we on this spectrum. And, I have to say, in my community, most of us have osteopenia. Even though I tend to attract the athletic person or somebody who's healthy, they're doing peptides and eating healthy. It's just like, why are these women having osteopenia? And, they're also very pro-hormones, so they're taking the hormones. What is going on?

And, what is osteopenia? Sorry, if you're okay explaining that to us.

Thank you for— Yeah. So, osteoporosis is the is the bone, low bone density. And osteopenia is the phase before osteoporosis, kind of like pre-diabetes, like you're getting there. And this is all determined by a T-score in a scan. You take a bone scan, you usually it's the DEXA, D-E-X-A, and you're laying down in this bed and you have this little machine like hover over you. It's very, it's painless. It takes 5 minutes. It's quite easy to do. And then it looks at your for the density of the bone. And then it gives you this score so that the doctors can say, "Oh, you're at risk for a fracture." Because who cares about a score and a number? We care about, "Am I going to fall and have a fracture, break a bone?" And all the things that happen after that. And that's 50% of the women over the age of 50 will have an osteoporotic fracture, will have a fracture, not, you know, because our bones are fragile, which is kind of a big deal. Well, that's a lot of us. What is going on? Well, we can thank the loss of our hormones, right? That's kind of what's happening. We're more at risk. Women have more osteoporosis than men. Although men, when you take away their estrogen in mice models, we see that they become more— they have more brittle bones. So, it is protective for them as well. But, for us, it is more devastating. We have smaller body frames. We have— even when I got my hip replacement, I remember there were certain procedures that they didn't recommend because the women's bones, like that neck of the femur, tends to fracture more than a man's, so we couldn't have that procedure. So, it is really important to look at our bones and our bone health because it is a marker of many other things. And, bone and muscle go together. And, this is why we want to build more muscle to protect the bones. But, osteoporosis is something that I think when we get this score, and I felt the same way when I had my first score when I was I mean, I've had plenty of DEXAs showing they were fine for many years, but I think it was when I was 52, more or less, 53, and I, and I was told I had osteopenia. And I was like, what? What? So I was partly like surprised, but partly not surprised because I was really, um, starting my— well, starting or in the middle of my osteoarthritis journey where I was told no impact, no heavy lifting, take it easy, rest. I was on baby doses of hormones. I was just playing around trying to get them up. And I, I guess I thought, well, you know what, that makes— it makes sense. I shouldn't be surprised. But I was really bummed. I was really devastated. Because when you think about, if I have osteopenia now, even though it's not yet osteoporosis, what's going to happen when I'm 67? If I don't do anything now, then for sure I'll have an osteoporotic fracture. I'll be in that camp of the 50% who do. So I, I better do something now. And this is why I love midlife, because it's an opportunity for us to make a change. We We can complain all we want, but sometimes it forces us to make these changes that we really should be doing. And, and we want to protect our future self. The gerontologist in me is looking at the future and wants to see that as we're 70, 80, 90, we can still be independent and mobile and do the things that we want to do, whatever it is that you want to do. Some people want to climb Kilimanjaro and run marathons. Other people, they just want to be able to pick up their grandkids, and that's fine. So this is why I understand the fear. And the problem comes is when with a DEXA, there can be problems. They're, they're not perfect. And even though it's the quote unquote gold standard, we, we are put on this, we're given a score and then we have fear around it. And what my doctor told me, and this was just a general doctor, it wasn't my, my doctor, but the doctor who read the scan said, okay, well, you just walk and, and take take some calcium. And I was like, that, that's it? Like, I don't think that's gonna serve me very much. And I knew better, but I was thinking, this is what the information that everyone is getting after a scan like this? And so as I dug deeper, I, I learned about another scan called the REM scan. Have you heard of it?

No, I haven't.

Tell me about that. Oh wow, okay. So I like this scan a little better. It's radiofrequency echographic multispectrometry. It's a mouthful, so it's REM And what this scan does, it's an ultrasound. And if you're, you know, don't like radiation and all that, you're like, I'm doing DEXA, we'll get it, get the REMS. The REMS scan not only looks at the bone density, but it looks at bone strength and both quality. And it, it, I, I believe it's a better predictor of fracture risk. And, and unfortunately, it's not known enough. It's not widely available. It's, it's a new technology. I always love new technology. So you'll get people who poo-poo it and go, well, it's not enough research. There is research and the research is really positive. So I'm going with that. So when I, if you are given this osteopenia or even osteoporosis diagnosis, go get a REMS, go see what the quality of bone is. It's kind of like you can step on a scale that tells you a number. Like who cares how many pounds you are. I want to know, is this muscle or just bone? And am I losing the fat and gaining the muscle? Then I know I'm in the right trajectory. And this is what the REM scan can tell you. And it is in the US, there you will, you can find places. It's harder. It's a little harder in Europe, even though the technology is from Italy. And the, the, what I like about the REMs, usually the people who have the, this, this tool, and it's literally like the size of a carry-on. It's, it's not a huge thing. And there's a little wand that's— they— it's just like an ultrasound. It is an ultrasound. And you, you feel like you're pregnant again, looking for a baby, because they go over your belly to look at your spine. And immediately you get, you get a score. And so they can tell you not only the density but the strength. And I can tell you the story that my husband just got got his very first bone scan, and he did it with the REMS. And my— and just to give you context, he's 65 years old. Last year he walked across Europe, 11 months, every single day walking with a heavy backpack. It was about 40 pounds. And so this guy is fit. He walked across Europe. He gets a bone scan with the REMS, and he's got osteoporosis. And you're like, what? However, He has very strong bones, and so if he took DEXA, he would be put on medication that he probably didn't need. And so it's, it's something that, again, this fear that's running around, I, I want to put into context. I want people to, to take a breath and know it's just a score. And after I've interviewed so many of these bone experts who do this all day long, who have huge communities of women who have osteopenia or osteoporosis trying to reverse this, they really, really stress that this is just one piece of the puzzle. We have to look at the whole picture. Is this person athletic? Are they sedentary? What are they eating? Are they eating enough protein? Are they doing the exercises? What is it around this person? And, and, and do we really just want to reverse the score of a DEXA? Do we care even that that number gets better, or do we care that, that we get her strong bones? Bones. And that's what I think is much more important, is to focus on really the quality of the bone, not just the density.

That makes sense, because it's not just— just like we don't want to just focus on scale number. It's like, because there's so many other variables, like you said, what's the muscle, what's the fat, what's the— there's a lot of other variables to it. That same thing with lab work, blood tests. You can see low thyroid, but like, how are you feeling? So there's— it's a lot of— it's not just about treating the numbers Makes complete sense.

Okay. And can I, can I add to that? Just because what I've learned so much about the DEXA there, I think the number was— don't quote me— it was something high, something like 70% of the people who have fractures have normal DEXA scans, something ridiculous. This is Dr. Doug Lucas, so I think it's just great information. And he— and so he also There's a Dr. Doug, uh, Dr. John Neustadt, who is his— he shares a story of his mother-in-law, I think it was his mother-in-law, who had, uh, osteoporosis, reversed it with medication, doing fine, doctors were happy, he was happy, and then she falls and fractures a bone. And he says, how can that happen? So again, this is just a number and it's just one piece of the puzzle. And it— and just because you're safe, quote unquote safe, and you're in the green and everything's fine, doesn't mean that you shouldn't take a deeper dive and say, am I really Do I really have strong bones? And I think whether you green or red or yellow, whatever you are, because that's how the scan goes, you need to focus on your bones and your bone health because you're still aging and you're, you know, breaking down bone and building it up. It's this fluid thing. It's like a living organism and we need to have more buildup than breakdown, or at least have them balanced and not be in the breakdown zone.

You know, when we look at older people from behind, So, we're not even looking at what they look like appearance-wise. So, from behind and how they move, you many times can tell someone's age by how they move. And, I had heard a quote once, "Never let an old person move into your body." And, what I took that as is kind of what you're saying here. You don't have to let those behaviors that we think are associated with old move into your body. I'll talk about my mom for a minute. My mom's 80, health markers great on labs, she looks looks great, looks younger than her age, but I watch her move and it's painful for me to watch her move. She moves very slow. She's in pain. She usually tweaks herself. And she has a lot of those. She has osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, all of those. And she was one of those people told just walk and take calcium. And I think she was told to take Tums or something like that. So when I look at that, But, you know, she's 80 and I think I want to move different. And then, I'll see other people that they turn around and you would have never guessed that they were 80 because you're watching how they move and it's so different. So, how we move is really, really critical. And so, what you're saying is really resonating. We get very confusing advice on what to do to prevent and even reverse. And I'm just going to kind of throw out a bunch of things I've heard and then I want to have you walk us through kind of what you've learned and what you're doing. So, for example, the advice walking, we hear that. We hear about calcium. We now hear about jumping and rebounding, even vibration plates. We hear about adding muscle, although nobody really explains how does that work. Like, how does adding muscle help? We hear about hormones, and what happens if someone chooses not to take hormones or can't take hormones? Is that going to hurt things? I know the other day I was shopping, and I saw a pair of sneakers I wanted, and they were like the trendy— reminds me of those like the Air Max. And my husband's like, "Absolutely not. Those are terrible for bone loss." I was like, "Hadn't thought about that." So, no puff in your shoes, right?

Okay.

Puff in your shoes. That's what I'll call it. No walking.

How—

it's confusing. Oh, oh, then we talk about vitamin D, sun for bone loss. It's very confusing. And then supplements. What do we actually need to know about these things? What did you discover?

What are you doing? Yeah, there are many things, and you'll find research supporting it all. That's why it's even more confusing because you're like, "What do I believe?" And this is where the biohacker in me goes, "You know what? We're all bioindividual. You choose your method and you test and you measure and assess. And if it's working for you, fabulous. And if it's not, then you can change and shift. I don't care what the research says. The research will always have outliers. Maybe you're an outlier. I don't know." So, so this is where with so many things that you— okay, the things that you mentioned, and we know that exercise is important, right? We know that impact is important, and we know that strength training is important for those— the not only the bones, but also for the muscles. So the rebound thing, there's, there's, there's some research.

And again, before you get into rebounding, and tell me if I'm asking you too many things that you're like, "I don't know the answer." But, how and why? Like, why does the weight training— like, why is that helping the bone?

So, the bones need a stimulus. They need a stress and they need a force. And I know you know this too. And you need that to build muscle, right? But you also need it to build the bone. The bone needs to get that signal. It's just a signal that's sent out. And I don't want to to get technical because then we're going to lose people. That's okay. So we want to just understand it's the impact. And even when you say lifting heavy weights, it's not just for the muscle, but your bone actually having it bent because you're lifting really, really heavy, again, with control, with safety, et cetera. But it's that bending of the bone from a heavy weight. It's the impact. It's the force that sends the signal that tells the body,, oh, okay, I need to build bone because there's some breakdown, kind of like the muscle as well. The muscle gets worn and you need to repair it. It doesn't get the signal from walking. It doesn't— it's, it's not that it doesn't get the signal, it doesn't get a strong enough signal. Let's say walking, you need a force that's 4 times your body weight to get a signal that's strong enough to build bone. Again, this is just one study and this is just, you know, maybe you're different. Maybe you need just 3 times. Maybe you need 5. Like, again, we, But there's the latest research shows that we need 4, and they only looked at hips and building bone in the hip in 6 months, having about 1% of a buildup, which is really quite, quite impressive. So if you walk, it's only 1 to 1.5 times. If you run, it's about 3 times. And if you jump off a step that's 8 inches or 20 centimeters high, then it's 4 times. And then if you had a little rebound after that, like, you know, jump and then jump off and bounce over, then it's 5 times. So we know that impact that's strong enough matters. Now, if you jump even higher, then there's going to be obviously more force, but you don't want to— you have to be careful too if you have osteoporotic bones or if you have joint issues, you know, you have problems. Like, don't be doing this stuff without the guidance from your doctor.

This is where it gets confusing because, okay, someone hears that and they're like, oh, I'm going to go, I'm going to go start doing that, right? But if you already have that going on, on, that could be dangerous because then you are— you could get fractured. You, you could have that. So, this is where it gets a little confusing. So, if I'm hearing this correctly, it's almost like you do this before it even gets to that point. And then, you need to know your starting point before you're doing those things. And then, if you already have your starting point and that's going on, you've got to do this gradually, I would imagine.

Yeah, of course. Like anything, you build up gradually. Even if you don't have osteoporotic bones, if you never exercise in your life, you always want to start low and slow, and then you gradually build up. But, I like knowing a baseline to just get your score, get your whatever, whether it's a DEXA, I prefer REMS, and then you just know where you're at. And then, you can test every year. If everything's fine, I mean, I'm talking about a woman in midlife, I'm getting my kids who are 20, in their 20s tested because I want to know what are their bones like now. And then, I'll do it again maybe 5 years or so, and it doesn't really matter. So, I think just having a baseline is really good for anyone of any age.. And then you can do some exercises. Now, the, this, this one study that, um, I'm talking about showed that it was in 6 months, they, these people tested again and they had 1% increase in their hips. Okay. Now jump roping, somebody asked about jump roping and the jump roping was not as impactful as jumping off of a step.

I wonder why. Yeah, I guess the force of coming down.

Yeah. But it also depends on how how you're jump roping. Like if you do the alternate one, you know, jumping one leg, then the other leg, that was less impactful than jumping on two feet. Now, if you jump higher, then there's going to be more force. But if you, you know, you're doing these little hops, you know, going, you want to go fast and you do shorter hops and there's less of an impact. So naturally you get less of a signal to the bone. And again, very individual. This is just one study. So you'd have to go, maybe the short ones are fine for you.

This is where, where you, How would rebounding— and maybe you don't know this either, but how does rebounding help that? Because rebounding would be the— it's like literally pushing you back up, so you're not getting that force of like the jumping down.

You're talking about rebounding on—

like, so when somebody rebounds on a mini trampoline, they market those for bone loss prevention, but that doesn't make sense because that's the opposite.

Yeah, I haven't looked at the research with that, but that to me doesn't— like, you— it doesn't make—

doesn't—

yeah.

And I'm not saying it's not possible. I just want to understand because if the research is saying it's the jumping down, the stepping off of, then that doesn't make any sense to me why rebounding would help.

Yeah. And I don't think it would be as impactful, but I'd have to look at the research.

So, I don't really know.

Okay.

Then, my next question. And again, Zora, this is not— Zora went through this and this is what she does, but she's not a bone surgeon. She's not. So, I'm kind of putting her on the spot here with some of these questions. She's just done a lot of the research and dug. So, that's why I'm asking here. But, what about vibration plates?

What would you know anything about? So there was research showing the vibration plates could be impactful for bone and it's good. And it, and it's, it, but it's very, for me with hip surgeries, at least my surgeon told me no. Really? Because I've got parts in me and he doesn't, he didn't, he said, he didn't say no forever, but it was like no for the first year. Yeah. And so, but I do, that there is, it does show an improvement in bone. I don't remember how much, how big of an impact. But it does make an impact and it's good for bone.

And, so I have a funny story about the vibration. I have a vibration plate, I have a Power Plate, and I just like the way it feels. I've done workouts on it, but I had a disc replacement surgery and I didn't really think much about it. But I think it was like 4 months after my disc replacement. I knew not to go on it right away, but about 4 months after, I started standing on it again and doing on the low speed, like squats on it, planks off it, whatever. And then, I started because my morning routine is like my red lights and everything right there. I just started sitting on it. I'm like, "I'm just going to sit on it. It feels kind of good." I'm like, I'm gonna sit on there and do my red lights and then I'll stand at the end. And then one day my back started hurting a little bit and I was like, so I happened to look on chat and it says, if you have a disc replacement, do not sit on the vibration plate. Whoops. I'm okay now. But I was like, so I think what you said about parts in you, we do have to be careful there. We gotta be aware.

Yeah. You forget because now we're back in action. We're like, yay, you're doing everything that you used to do and you go, oh wait, I forgot I have parts in me.

And, I don't think you should sit on it if you have this part in your spine. I learned that, but I'm still, I'm doing the standing on it. It's 6 months, it's 7 months past now. So, I stand on it on the lowest vibration and do some squats activating muscles. So, it's not going directly to spine. So, I think, I guess the lesson if you're listening is if you do have parts, you've got to ask your surgeon or ask and make sure you're, like you said, probably a year out versus even like you said about 6 months.

Yeah. And, I think there's workarounds. For me, Maybe there's things I could lie on it and not affect my hips. And yes, that's, that's the thing. Maybe you put your feet on it with, you know, or somehow you find an angle where it doesn't affect your spine. So it's, again, we have to, we can, I think we can make adjustments, but you got to work with somebody who obviously knows your condition and then, and knows the Power Plate pretty well. Yeah. Right. Did you understand what's— because I think all Power Plate, no, Power Plate is a brand name, but these vibration plates, they're different. And you need So, the key in terms of bone building, I don't remember the number of the frequency, but there is a certain frequency that Power Plate has that some of the others don't. And, that's what will build bone and also be more safe for anything that's going on in your body. So, I do know, yeah, I've got actually the research that Power Plate sent me, I just haven't looked at it yet.

Yeah, I'm curious now. I was afraid to ask my surgeon, but now that my back back does not hurt, I will probably ask him to look at it. I didn't want to admit that I had done something not good, that I wasn't supposed to do that. But I'm okay. I'm okay now. Yeah.

Okay.

What about hormones and how that's connected?

What have you learned there? Yes. So, fascinating about hormones. So, if osteoporosis is— it's the lack of estrogen that's driving this, then it makes sense. Well, let's put back, right? And, and, and that's what hormone therapy can be used for, as, as a prevention of osteoporosis. It's like, there's so much disagreement on hormones, and again, but since everybody agrees on that, that fact, so, so it's— it, it works, and it's been shown in lots of research to help and support bones because you're, you're building back the bone rather than bone loss. Now, it was really interesting when I interviewed John Newsted and Doug Lucas on this. They dig real, really deep into the research. And, what they told me was that the research that they were looking at showed that in order to stop bone loss, and remember bone loss and bone building are two different things, you only need in your blood about 11 picograms per mL of estrogen, which— or estradiol, which is very low, like very low, like nothing. It's like a drop of estrogen that you're taking. And in order to start building bone, you need 20 picograms per ml. And that is also very, very low. Well, that's—

yeah, for most people, postmenopause still even have that. That's like— that's like— so I know some people think that, but when we say we take— I was having hot flashes. Under 30. So yeah, it's—

that's very low. It is low. And that being said, they said it's— this is not like our goal. They said, well, there's research also showing that you need 100 on average. So, you know, they were just looking at some of the research that's out there. So what they do with their patients is they, they like to get them somewhere, I think they said between 60 and 100, more or less, to— depends on, because some women can't tolerate, you know, when they have 100, uh, picograms per ml in their blood and it's like too much and some of it is not enough. So again, we're all so individual, but they know that they don't need much to, to start building bone back up again. That's just starting like they want to be. Doctors are, you know, in the optimization business, so they want optimal bone and then they also want to protect your brain and your heart and your— and I hate using that word protection because that gives us the false impression that we can, you know, just take our hormones and everything else. House. But, they want to get the benefits as much as they can by having a little higher levels in the bloodstream. And then, of course, the patient having no more symptoms or feeling really good. And so, that's— yeah. So, that's the funny story that I thought, gosh, I was just— blew my mind how little we need. So, but I think one of your next questions is, do we need hormones to build our bones back, right? And, And the answer is no, we can do this without our estrogen. Of course, it's a nice support. And I always think HRT is just one tool in the toolkit. Now, if you cannot, or you choose not to, that's fine too. It's, again, menu of choice. It's up to you how you want to live your life. So, if you decide you don't want to do it, then we do all the other things that we should be doing anyways, even if you are taking hormones, in terms of the food, and the exercise, and the sleep, and the stress management. And everything else, which this does impact. And you did ask something about muscle, and I didn't, I didn't answer that. How does the muscle affect the bone? And, and one of the bigger levers is because muscle is actually pulling bone. When we, when we're exercising, it pulls the bone, and that also sends a stimulus. I forgot to, to answer that question, but, but they always go hand in hand.

Yeah, typically people with higher muscle mass have less bone loss issues. So those those do correlate together. I know one of my big priorities in my 50s is how do I add muscle, which my gosh, if you're listening and you happen to be in your 30s, do it now because it is so much harder in our 50s to add it. We can work on preventing losing it, but adding it, it gets more— it's not impossible, it just is a lot more challenging than it was certainly in my 30s. My 30s, I would look at a weight and protein and add muscle. Now, it's a lot harder. I have to really work at progressive overload and really work at eating the right nutrients to build it. What are some of the things you're doing? And, what supplements did you add in to help with this? Are you doing creatine? Are you doing calcium? Are you doing AlgaeCal? I know that we both had talked about. What are some of the things? And, how do we get out through hype versus real?

I know. It's so confusing out there. I think I wish it was just one thing. "Oh, we just take this pill and it's always going to be good," or "Just take the hormones, all be good." Maybe they were told to take Tums. Tums.

My mom was told to take Tums years ago. I'm like, I don't think that's the right calcium, but okay.

No, we're not getting the right information. And one thing I forgot to mention was on the tip of my tongue when I said, uh, usually the, the people who have the REM scan is testing the bone— I'm sorry, I'm jumping all over the place, but I don't want to forget— these are very often functional medicine doctors and people who are a little bit more cutting edge, who are looking at the future and want something easier and better for their, their patients. And what they would tend to do is say, okay, "Hey, you've got some osteopenia or osteoporosis, whatever, or your bones are fragile or weaker than we expected. Here's what we're going to do." And what they often do— well, there's one that's called Screen My Bones. And what they do is they would say, "Let's take a mineral test and a vitamin test. Let's see where you're deficient. And then let's start replacing that." Rather than, "Here, just take all these supplements." They really try to target. They would tell you, "Let's build— let's get some exercise plan in you? How is your stress? How is— so they look at the whole lifestyle. They would not tell you just walk and take calcium. So, mind you, if you do find a center that has that, they're more likely to give you a plan, which I'm going to share my plan now. So, my plan is, well, I have the exercise component. Yay, I can bring that back. I can do more impact. I do the jumping off the stairs. And I didn't mention, if you are going to jump off the stairs, this is safe for you and you can do this, you— this— the research showed that you only do it 3 times a week. Like, it's not something you do every day. You don't need to do it every day. If you do it more, maybe you go faster. I don't know.

And how many times when you do this?

And then you jump off 10 times and you do 3 rounds. 3 rounds.

Okay.

So that's it. You jump off a stair 10 times. Like, simple. You take a break for, I don't know, a few seconds or whatever to get your breath back or whatever you need. Then you go back, do 10 again, take a rest, do 10 again, and you're done. I mean, you can add this with shoes on or no shoes. It depends where I'm at. If I'm at the gym and I have my shoes on, I have— very often I do it when I'm outside. I'm one of these people, like monkey, if I see the bar, I start doing pull-ups. If I— yeah, I just go and jump off of it. So probably with my shoes on more. Okay.

But, but according to my husband, don't do it with puffy shoes. Based on nothing other than his opinion. But he said barefoot shoes or flat shoes so you can help with your bone. He didn't really have a backup statement. He just told me that.

So that's a good— that's a really good question. And I'm going to dive into that because—

please let me know because it's more fashionable to wear the puffy ones.

Yeah. I think doing it rather than not doing it is already something, right? That's already great. Whether if you do it with shoes, fine. If you don't do it, then it's not going to work. So totally. Probably I see his thinking and it makes sense. Okay. Yeah. Well, you'll probably feel the impact more, you would think, and I'm just speculating. But I do want to— I'm going to go dive into that question because— and I'll let you know because I think that's interesting. Does it matter what shoes and what kind of shoes you have on, if any at all?

Well, I mean, I understand his point too because we add all this cushion, right, to help. The cushion started not just from fashion, it started to feel better. So like your hips were hurting, whatever, you add all this cushion to your shoe, shoes, but people quickly realized you'd get other problems from those. So I had— but now it's like a fashion thing where people wear the thicker ones.

And it makes you taller.

It does make you taller. You're right. That's important too. So, okay. So this is kind of a weird question, but I'm going to— so there's a lot of talk about GLPs and bone loss. Is that— do you feel, because— people just losing too much weight and muscle? Do you think there's any— is there any research showing that? What is your opinion around that?

I think GLPs, it's probably not enough research on bones because it's— I don't want to say it's completely new, but it's newer. So it's probably— my opinion would be you probably need more research. Whatever research you find, you probably need more research. But it makes sense. I think if you're gonna go off of the stereotype that's out there of the people doing the GLP-1 because there's all kinds. I see people doing it right, it's working out fabulously, and I see people doing it all wrong. So the wrong way, which people like to target, is you're not eating enough. And we know we need to eat to build bone. How are the bones gonna build muscle? Yeah, to build the muscle and the bone. The bones need protein. The bone, just like the muscles, need protein. They need calcium. They need all these nutrients. They need all these minerals. So if you're not you're not feeding yourself, because what happens, it removes your appetite, and so people tend to eat less, and then they're losing the weight. Of course, there's a lot of other mechanisms of action that happen with the GLP-1s, and I'm not the expert to ask on those mechanisms, but I, I, I think the big driver that we're seeing is, is the caloric restriction that's happening. And so there we go. If you're not getting enough calories, you're not getting enough nutrients, and you're not getting enough protein, how are you going to build the muscle? It makes sense. You're going to lose muscle and you're going to lose bone. Bone. And if you, again, are you exercising? You're not exercising. Even if you were exercising, you still need to feed the bones, just like you need to feed the muscles. They don't grow by themselves or they'll take it off of somewhere else. So essential amino acids, this is why you and I both take them because we want to make sure we get enough. And so we need those amino acids. Those are the building blocks of bones and muscles and hair and skin and nails and everything else. So, I think it's more of a malnutrition question— problem than an under-protein intake because we could blame the exercise and you're not exercising and that also makes an impact. And, yes, that's important, but even if you are, you still need to get fuel to fuel the bones.

So, with everything that you've learned, what supplements have you specifically added to help with this? And I know you said it's pretty custom, like you want people to actually test and see what they're deficient, but I know there's some universal things, like for example, aminos, like you just said. I do the same thing with aminos. I use Kion because I want all 9. I'm also taking— I do Beam Minerals because I want to cover my bases with minerals. What about collagen? What about calcium? What about—

how— what else are you doing? Yeah, so I do it all. I mean, I have it all. So I think, first of all, nutrition first. Like, like we always promote, we've got to get the food in. But it's not what you take, it's what you absorb that really matters. This is why I really like the testing. If your gut's not absorbing it and your body's not absorbing it, you're just wasting your money. So, so go test and see where you're deficient in. Try to get those foods in. So protein is always number one, and for bones as well as muscle. And most of us are just not getting enough. I think in my generation, in my, in my community as well, what I'm seeing is a lot of women are undereating and overtraining. Train because they're trying to lose the belly fat. They're trying to do what they did when we were 30, and it's not working anymore. And what's happening is a lot— a cascade of other, other problems in the body. So it's hard to get them to go, okay, let's now eat 3 times a day. Let's— and if you need a snack, then make sure it's a protein-rich snack. And so this is where we depend on the essential amino acids. I take Kion as well, which I love. And, uh, and then I take the I also take the B minerals. It's nice to have that, but I do eat a lot of vegetables as well. I'm more of a vegetable, and then the meat is the kind of condiment on the plate. But it's always, for me, it's around 30 to 40 grams each meal, and I eat 3 times a day. So, I love food, and I like to eat, and I tend to eat large quantities. So, I always make sure that I have a lot of color. Color in my plate. And I think that can help people just go by color. If you only have 1 or 2 colors there every day, try to add in another color, whether it's carrots or red peppers or purple cabbage. Try to shoot the purple or the green just to have another polyphenol in there, or has more nutrients in there. And then, um, so once those have minerals, they have nutrients, they have things that feed the bone as Protein, though, is king, so don't skimp on that. And I tend to take protein powders as well when I need it. I love making protein pancakes because it makes me feel like I'm eating pancakes and I get an extra— I eat dairy, so I tolerate it. So, I love having cottage cheese.

You're getting most of your calcium from that, from actual dairy.

Yeah, calcium, spinach. I don't drink milk, but I do tend to lean on the yogurt and the cottage cheese. A lot.

And so that's— And then what's your feed— do you have feedback? So I know I just started recently taking AlgaeCal, just like kind of as a preventative. Do you have— I know you're taking that as well.

Do you have feedback on that yet? Yes. Yeah. So I think AlgaeCal is a great bone-centric supplement because we can be like, oh, I take my minerals, but if it's not the right minerals in the right quantity, you know, and they have synergistic effects, then maybe you're not benefiting as much as having something very very bone-centric. And, and, and AlgaeCal, that's all they do. That's what I like about it. It's like they only do— they focus on the bones. And so, they have, I think it's like 13 minerals that are essential for bone health. And then, they have algae. Like, that's why it's called AlgaeCal. And, this specific type of algae also helps with the bone. So, it's— I can't remember the name of the algae, but that's a key component that I wouldn't have in Beam Minerals, for example, or for example, some other supplement. And that's— we want that. And then they have— so I started that 3, 4 months ago. And I took a DEXA. So, my DEXA showed osteopenia, even though Rems is like, "Your bones are fine, but okay, let's just, you know, try to improve." I'm still stuck on a number sometimes. And then I tell to retest again, and that number should go up. And if it doesn't, get my money back. So, they're confident.

I'm pretty confident.

Yeah.

I've heard great— I've heard promising things. And, I don't— my bone scan did not show any kind of bone loss, but I'm taking it more preventative because why not? I've just heard too many positive things about it.

Well, take the REMS and then, you know, and just compare just to be interested. Yeah.

No, I want to take that test now too as well. So, okay. So, this has been super eye-opening. What do you want women to kind of walk away? And what do you wish I had asked you about this?

Like, what—

because there's a lot of women listening that this is all new to them. There's a lot of them that just actually got a diagnosis around this. It's scary to them. Kind of help us with some, some closing thoughts. Like, what do you want them to know? And what do you wish I had asked you?

Yeah, I wish— I want them to know just no fear. This is reversible. It's not like some other things that we can't not reverse, or it's really hard. Osteoarthritis is really hard to reverse. Osteoporosis can. And I also want you to not get stuck on a number, right? Even though I, I, I understand what that is, know that it's just one piece of the puzzle. It's just one number. There are people living with osteoporosis, um, diagnoses, but yet their bones are really strong and they will never have a fracture. And I don't want to diminish if you really do have fragile bones, you have to build those back up. So I don't know where you are. I just find that there's a— there's too much fear. Like, we're— everyone is in the same bucket where I think we need to separate the women who really are at risk for having a high-risk fracture and the women who are— feel that they are but they aren't. So this is where I want you to dive deeper. And then I want you to also know that if you put these pieces in place in terms of doing the movement, getting the strength training, try to do some jumps, try to get the sleep. You're— again, this bone is like muscle. It doesn't grow if you don't sleep. I mean, it's harder to grow. It's really hard. So, you're going against the current if you're not prioritizing your sleep. So, work on that and your stress as well. Stress has an impact on everything. So, it's one of those big levers that we don't look at enough because we're all living in stress. And, it's not the stress that's the problem, it's It's the response to stress. And this is where I think the fear creates this unnecessary stress, and that's doing nothing for your bones. So try to let that go. You can take a breath, start taking the steps that we talked about today. It's easy to, to add just a few things to your diet, to add a good supplement, to jump off a step 10 times, you know, 3 times a week, and then you can reassess and check and, and really see that— feel confident that you are doing all the right things for your bones. And if you are open to HRT, you can look at that, have that conversation with your doctor. If not, don't worry, there are other things that you can do to build your bone.

Zora, this was so helpful today, and, um, please keep us— I want to know, I personally, and I'll have to add back to the show notes. I'd love to know what you see when you retest the AlgaeCal.

I'm curious.

I'm taking that too.

I'm also—

I'm very curious about that. One thing that's coming up for me about these tests, the testing, I think sometimes we overtest on things. I just do. I think that we overtest and then it gets in our head and then it makes us discouraged and it puts us off. I'm actually in a place of like doing less tests because I find that I take them like report cards. And if we're doing all the things, to prevent bone loss and we're doing all— we're adding all these things, what's the point of— to me, I'm like, I don't want to get the bad news and then go, what was the— so, I don't know. I think that we have to also admit as midlife women, this is the same, not just with testing, this is with needing every— yeah, actually, it is with testing, all the blood tests, all the scans, all the— so, yes, they're tools. And, I just want to be mindful for everybody listening to check in with yourself on what's that going to do because I do believe on what we focus on, we create. And, if you're like, I'm doing I am lifting. I have muscle. I have this. I don't know that a scan is going to help you right now because then you find out the bad news and then it's like you start thinking, what's the point? So, I don't know.

Jury's still out on that one. You're right, 100%. I mean, how many times do you see people wearing the Oura Rings or the Apple Watches and every morning they wake up? Yeah.

I stopped wearing my Oura Ring. I'm not saying I won't. I haven't had it on for almost 2 months and I loved it, but it was becoming a report card to me. And I stopped because it was like I felt great and then, oh, you had terrible sleep. Okay, so now I'm in a bad mood. Or I was very active today, but I didn't quite get my steps. Now, at least, I don't know. I'm not saying I'll never wear it again. It's charging right now, actually. I thought about it the other night that I should resume and see, but I'm going more into the less of testing and the less of tracking and the less report cards.

Yeah. Yeah. For that reason. Once when it dictates how you feel for your day or you become worried about it or you start believing it too much, then it's backfiring. It's time to put it in a drawer, put it away, and let it go and not to worry about it. And like you said, these tools, I use them and the girls in my community use them because we just would like to confirm some of our intuition.

Is that right?

Yeah. Yeah. No.

And I'm not saying I'll never wear it again. Like I wore it for years. I just had to take a little break because I thought if it's a starting effect, then I have to change it. And I just think this is just a checking into a test. I've done lots of tests. I've done the scans. I've done— but I'm just checking in with myself on why I do things. Like, and what's the reasoning behind— like, I know I went down the whole path with heart. You know, I did the coronary artery scan. It was zero. Then I did a Cleerly. And I'm like, why am I doing all these things?

So, like, so, you know, I don't know. You worry about doing the right thing. We're in this world. We're trying to optimize. Optimize. And sometimes it gets too much, and I go in ebbs and flows just like you. I'm like, you know what, I had enough and I'm done. Like, I'll get back to it, that's fine, but you just get tired. I get pill fatigue. Yes. It's like I'm, I'm so—

yeah, there's like 10 supplements that I regularly talk about that I definitely use, but I'm, I'm in this place of less is more. So if I'm talking about it, I'm really using it and loving it, and it made the cut, but I, I've cut out a lot of things too because I'm like, what's actually necessary? What's actually helping?

So yeah, and if it's causing stress in your life, you let it go. That's, that's the better thing to do because stress is a big lever.

Zora, where can people find you?

Where can they learn more? Hackmyage.com is my website, and everything is Hack My Age, and that's on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and LinkedIn and like everywhere. So if you cannot remember that, if you remember Zora the Explorer, like, I love that. Uh, you'll find me there too. That's my, my other name.

That's cute. I love that. Thank you, Zora the Explorer. We loved it.

Thank you.

Oh, thanks, Natalie Jill.