How To Fix Your Finances So You Don’t Have To Work Forever
Natalie Jill and Brett Johnson discuss escaping endless work through practical money moves: eliminate high-interest debt, downsize expensive housing, invest 5-15% into index funds, and stop car payments. They cover renting versus owning, emergency funds, and how couples should talk about money.
Chapters
So you're in midlife and maybe you are losing sleep lately over finances. This tends to be common. Maybe you didn't plan quite as well as you hoped to, and you're wondering, do I have to work forever? Are things ever going to turn around? Am I ever going to be able to enjoy a retirement or be traveling and having these really great vacations like I'm watching some of my friends do today? I want to talk all about finances in midlife and what we can do to get ourselves back on track, maybe to start being on track and also to clean up what we maybe didn't anticipate for. I asked my friend Brett Johnson to be here. I thought he was the perfect person to talk about this. He was always great with numbers and with money, but later in life, really started to figure out the investing game. Learned a lot about housing market, finance market, stock market. Also, I've heard him talk a lot about debt and consolidation and how to navigate a lot of that. So I asked him if he'd have a conversation with me just about this, because he's been on all sides of it. Brett, I've heard you. You've different sides. You've been in that side where you were worried about debt, where you didn't know how you're going to put things together. And then I watch you and Charlene. Charlene Johnson's his wife. I watch them traveling, feeling very abundant, being very abundant, being generous and saying things like they don't have to worry about money. So I thought you were the perfect one to have this conversation with today.
It's great to, like, talk about this stuff because we find, like, in our relationships, right, with your spouse or your partner, like, one person usually is attracted to, like, the finance part of it, and the other one is like, la, la, la. He doesn't want to hear about it. So, like, to have a conversation about it is great because we don't talk about that much. What we do is we've set up some parameters and I could go into that the way we do that, because it is typical when you're with a partner, that one is more responsible for the finances and the investment and keeping all that alive. And then, you know, the way you just divide up your household chores and stuff like that, so that it's been a lot of fun.
Yeah.
I have so many questions for you. I'm going to start with the one that I tend to get from women, especially a lot. They say they'll. They'll message and say things like, I'm in my 50s or I'm in my 60s and I was hoping to retire soon. I'm watching other people on social media talking about these great trips or these great things they're buying and I'm working full time. I don't have expendable income. I, I'm nervous about this. I have to be conservative and I don't know what to say to some of them. I wanted some, some guidance there too. Like, what do you think is happening there? It seems to be very, very common.
Yeah, I think, I mean it is 100%. Investing in growing your wealth is a long game. And I know you just put me in a scenario that is like, wait a second, we're getting towards the, you know, the final quarter of our life and we're like still working and not being able to like set aside like extra expenses for like fun things. But more than likely, so let's just call a spade a spade. More than likely you were doing a lot of fun things back when those people were doing the things that they probably were supposed to do. Probably that's, that's kind of, it's probably the trade off, you know, I find that more than, you know, more times than not is like they were busy doing like living life and doing all the fun things and then all of a sudden life creeps up on you and you're like, oh, wait a second, I didn't do any of that stuff that I was supposed to do. And now it's almost like cramming for the final in college the night before. And you didn't do, you didn't, you didn't go to class, you didn't read the book and you're like, oh, I got to pull an all nighter. So you pretty much, that's the equivalent it's in, you know, and I always, I like to also equip it to a lot of things that you're audience knows is fitness. And you've preached this for years. You're, you're not getting your body for one workout.
Totally.
You're not going to get the body you desire after a week, a month, it might take a couple years. And that's the thing where people like with investing too. It's hard for people because you start investing and the growth is so small at the beginning you're like, is this even worth it? I could just take this out and go, go to Greece and have a great time. My girlfriends or you, you know, so it's, I get that. But the reality is because there's going to be some people listening. So let's just address those people first. There's going to be some people listening to this that are in their late 20s and in their 30s. Start now. And now we can talk about, like, what happens if you're 50 or 60. But, like, start doing all the things that I'm going to talk about and we're going to talk about today. Start doing them as early as possible.
Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, that's. That's actually good advice. And I know you're. You're children do that. You talk about that a lot with Brock doing that and being really, really smart with that. Which. Which is amazing. I want to ask you. I'm going to start with kind of an odd question, but I've always heard that if you were to take and swap people's income, so you were to take people that had a lot of money and you took people that had no money, and you were to swap their incomes in a year, they would end up back where they originally were because they have that knowledge. They have. They already know. And I actually think the same when I look at fitness and weight loss. Somebody that was once fit, if they lose their way, sometimes they have an easier time getting it back than someone that's never experienced it.
They've done it before.
Yes. So I want to kind of start with that question. If you were to, like, lose everything right now, like, you still have a job, you can still earn, you can still earn, but you were to lose everything, all of a sudden, your stocks, your investments are gone, your real estate's gone, it's just gone flat.
Yeah.
What would you do?
First of all, I would make sure that I don't have debt. So that would be my first. I would go, okay, what's my credit card debt? What's my. What do I have to pay monthly in order to live? I would get rid of that as fast as possible.
How would you. How would you do that? Like, what would be your. How would you.
All extra income goes to paying off the debt and depend. I. And I, and I say one or two things. If you're the type of person when you're paying off credit cards. So let's say you have two credit cards, right? And everybody's like, you know, there's some theory is like, pay off the one that has the highest interest rate first, because that makes the most sense because you're paying the most. And other. And other people say, like, pay off the one that has the lowest balance. So here's what I here's what I say. If you are one of those people that, like, need a success, a win, like, you need to, like, get on the scale and go, Yes, I lost £2 this week, right? And it keeps you motivated, then I would pay off the least amount, like the least balance first, because that's going to give you a big win. You're going to be like, okay, I'm down to one credit card, okay? If you're, if you don't care about that, like, that doesn't bother you to have two credit cards worth of debt, then you pay off the interest on the, like, the highest one first. So, like, if one's 15 and one's 8%, then pay off the one that's 15% because it's costing you more to keep. So it just depends on your human nature because I really think, like, just like you said, like with investing and just like anything else in weight loss or anything, any habit, you have to, like, be able to, like, feel good about it and, like, get a win so that you feel like, I can keep doing this, I can keep doing this. So that's the way I would get rid of debt first. Then the next thing I would do is. My rule is you take your gross income and you invest, no matter what, every single month, right? You pay your mortgage because you got to live, right? You pay those initial expenses first, but then everything that's left over 5 to 15% goes into investing. Now if you are later in life, you better make it sure it's the 15. So you got to accelerate those deposits. You have to get bigger deposits, because what's going to happen is when you're 40, 40, 50, 60, you're already behind the eight ball. You haven't had all those years of compounding, right? Basically, the rule of thumb is, like, every seven years, if you just keep your money in, like, a conservative S and P index fund, your money's going to double, like, every seven to eight years, even if you're not adding to it. So if you just. If you just keep it in there and it just. Because the stock market is about 11%, okay, annual, right. On average. Some years it does more, some years it does left. But the average over, like, the last 25 or 30 years is 11. So I think we're pretty. We're pretty, you know, secure to say 11.
So let me. I'm going to back up just for a minute here. So you, you said the first thing you would do is you'd make sure there's no debt. I want to address the first question, some people are going to say, and I'm not talking about the someone that literally is punching pennies and does not have anything coming in. So I'm talking to a person that has an income. They have something coming in. They're going to still say, well, how am I going to pay off that debt? Like, what, what would you tell them? They've got a cut change. Is it. Is it an earning more question? Is it a. Or is it a cutting question? How would you look at that?
That. That would be. That would have to be, you know, I'd have to evaluate that. Like, I'm not a financial advisor and, you know, I'd have to advise every single person separately.
Okay.
Like, can I give you a. Can I give you, like, a case study that fits into this perfectly? Okay, so we have a friend of ours, a couple husband and wife, and they are in. You literally described them perfectly. They're in their late 40s, early 50s. They've raised their family, they have done business, they've worked, they both have a nice income, but they just haven't done the things that you should do, like investing wise, you know, for whatever reason. No judgment, right? So they're really close friends. So they asked me to sit down with them, and I sat down with them at a coffee shop and I, you know, I had my pad out and they started going over. Like, I was like, first question I asked, what's your debt? Like, like, what is your credit card, your car? Like, what is your overhead? Now, they had a Covid situation where they had a business that kind of got them a little bit underwater. Okay. So they had this, like, overhanging, like, business that they don't have anymore, but they still were paying. They had a brick and mortar. Okay. So they had that loan. And so we're sitting there talking and they're going over all their finances, and they are about $300,000, like, with everything. Okay, okay. Credit cards, car, and the loan from the previous business. So now you think about that. That $300,000 is just. Wayne. Like, that's where all their money's going to. So they can invest. Okay. But they own their house.
Okay?
They owned a house. Okay. This is where my theories are going to get, like, a little controversial. But you asked the question, if you want to. If you want to have a fun retirement and you want to not worry about stuff, they had a house. I was like, okay, so. And it was a nice house. They live in a very prominent state that has high. And they've been in there for, you know, 10 or 15 years. And I said, how much do you owe on your house? And they said, about 700,000. And I said, how much is your house worth? And they said, probably 2 million. Oh, so you.
I already know you're going to go. You're going to say you told them to sell the house. I'm assuming.
Right. But literally they came to me and they were like, we're broke and we're drowning. And because they. Their expenses, they couldn't. Like, they had the mortgage on the 700. They had the 300. Like, they couldn't get out from underneath that. And it was stressful. And they're both were like. You could just see it in their face. I was like. I was like, you don't have. You guys are fine. And they're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, sell your house. Sell your house right now. $2.2 million. Pay off your 700. You have 1.5 million. Whatever. You have to pay capital gains and you have to pay the realtor. Right, Whatever. So you're going to maybe get a 11 or 1 2. Right? Right. I'm doing the math fast. Your 300 grand is gone. Right. Pay that off, you're at $800,000.
Stress is gone, man.
$100,000. Take $600,000 and put it away that you have no more debt. Go find yourself a nice place in lease. You don't need to have a house. The crazy thing is everybody got sold this bill of goods. Like, you got to have the. A house to be the American dream. It's a joke.
Yeah. Talk about. Talk about that for a minute. I've heard you talk separately about a place to live.
Yeah.
So talk about that. Where did that come from? Where did that come from that we have to own?
Marketing. You're a marketer. Marketing. Banks did a really good job in, like the 50s. Wow. Like, who makes the money? The bank.
So why do people have this story, though, that if they're renting, they're throwing it away or.
Because they are, if they don't invest the difference.
Okay, talk about that.
So we're back into this mindset. So, like, you're just like the credit card thing. If you're the type of person that needs to, like, you can't have two credit cards. It stresses you out. Then pay off the one first. If you don't care, then pay off the highest interest rate first. Going right back to that same old thing. If you're a person that will not be disciplined and save and put 5 to 15% away every single month. Then buy a house and let it then be house poor. Because that's what they were.
Right.
They're like. They're poor in terms of, like, we're drowning. But you have a house that can get you out of it. Right. So they made a good decision. They made a great investment. They got their house, and they had it for 15 years, and it was in a great market, and they bought probably low, and they could sell it. So there's your. Like, you just have to get out of that stigma, like owning or renting. Like, I mean, I could buy a house here in Miami, and we have a house in California, but now it's a rental. But I. We rent here in Miami. Yeah. And I'm not throwing it away. People are like, you're throwing away. No, I'm not. If I were to go buy a house, first of all, you have to put money down. So once you put that money down, meaning a down payment, it's gone. Like, what do you mean it's gone? No, it's not. Yes, it is. You can't make any more money. A house makes. Remember what I said, Nelly, what is the S and P average over the last 25?
11%.
Okay. What's a house go up in value average?
I don't even know. But not three. Wow.
Three.
Three percent.
You're getting 8% more. If you're investing now, what people do that. Rent is like, you got to remember that if you owned a house, you have all those taxes. If. If something happens to the roof or the. Oh, yeah, Our. Our beach house. This. This year, like, is crazy. Like, I was. I told Shalina, I was like, the renters are in there. The elevator broke. The AC broke. Like, the. There was a pipe that broke in the garage. Like, all three of those things are my responsibility. Yeah. As a homeowner, if I'm renting, I don't. Like, I'm just calling up the owner and saying, fix these for me. Yeah. So all those are expenses that, as a renter, you don't have. But what happens is, is people, when they rent, they just get in there, and they just pay their rent, and then they. And then they have this extra income because they don't have all the expenses of the house, and they just. They do what you just said. They just go spend it totally makes sense. Okay. But if you took that extra money and put it in on top of your 5 or 15%, you start. You start going like, it Starts compounding so fast.
So I know you're not a financial planner and you're not giving financial advice, but I want to get in your mind for a minute because you're. You're like, very, very, very savvy at this. And I know you. You worked at it. Your mind always did well with numbers, but, like, you've gotten extra savvy. Want to kind of just ask you some. Some mind questions from you, literally. You lost everything. You don't know about investing yet. This is, like, new to you. You're mentioning about debt. I'm. These are going to be a little bit off track here, but what just you're. And you've got a solid business savvy, too, so you. Somebody's listening. They either have a job or maybe it's like a hourly situation or salary thing. What advice do you have for them? Do you still believe in, like, you should generate your own income? Do you say, don't start that in midlife? Do you have a thought around that?
Well, I mean, if it's midlife, you might have to get something extra. You might have to, like, let's say you do have a job, but you've been doing this job for 30 years, so now you're an expert at it. So could you figure out how to turn that into some kind of, like, side hustle on the weekend or get extra clients or get extra money? Because you are literally, you're behind the eight ball. Okay. How old's your daughter?
18.
She needs to start investing, like, tomorrow. That's when Brock and Sierra did. That's when our kids are like, they need to start putting in a little bit at a time. It goes so. It goes up so fast.
Yeah.
I mean, if you just think, like, every little penny extra money she puts in there, it just makes life so much easier when you have, like, money doesn't solve all problems, but it literally, it gives you options.
No, I'm grateful that. I mean, back when. When we did college and got a career job, we always had, like 401k. I'm so grateful that I did learn that early because at least I put that aside. I mean, I had 20 years before I even started a business of doing that. So I feel grateful because that's changed a lot. A lot of people not going to college or not doing. Not working in corporate. So I think in corporate, we kind of learned that, you know, it was like a standard thing that you would put money in for corporate.
Like, there's a book that Tony Robbins wrote, like, it's called like the Money Game, and it's all case studies and. Which is kind of weird that you don't think about him writing like a financial book. But he wrote this financial book and he's got a story in there, I believe, about a janitor at a high school. When he retired, like, at 60 years old, he retired with like 5 or 6 million dollars of a janitor salary and raised a family because he started like when he was 18 and just like, understood, like, okay, every extra bit of money goes into compounding and into the market and it's just going to. I'm just going to let it work. I'm not going to. I'm not even going to think about it. So. But you know, at this age, like you said, whether whatever your income is, you have to change your habit or you're going to. Or, or if you're 50, you'll look just like you are right now at 60. If you personally finances.
So if you personally. Again, back to you for a minute. If you personally had to start over and you had to think just quickest way to cash besides investment, obviously we've got to invest. We've got it. We know that. Would you. What, what would you. Would you be cutting more cost or focusing on how you could earn more? What would you personally be doing?
Both.
Both.
I would literally, yes, I would. Both. I would downsize whether it's a. If it's a house and I don't need a big house anymore, and if it's a, you know, total up all those expenditures. If I have a ton of equity in a house, I would sell the house.
Okay.
And rent and put all the money into investing. And then I would do some kind of, like, I would figure out some kind of side hustle. All of that extra money goes right into investing. I would literally pour everything I could into investing. And I would do. Usually when you're 50 or 60, like now I'm 55.
Okay.
Okay. And I don't want to have happen like what you just said. I don't want to lose it all.
Yeah.
Right. So I am slowly but surely, like, moving out of like some stock and moving into more like, like apartments, like where I'm. I'm not like owning the whole apartment. I might be in a syndicated deal where, like, it's more of a 4% return or 5% return, but I'm getting the equity of the property. And, you know, people are always going to need a place to live, and they're good properties in good states and all that kind of stuff. So. Because I don't want to have to like, I'd rather just let that money grow like that and like have more generational type wealth. But if I were to do it right now, this is kind of, this is very like backwards. When you're, when you're 20, like your Penelope's age and you're my kids age, like be flipping aggressive, like she should be buying some crypto. I don't have $1 of crypto. We don't have $1 cryptocurrency. Not one. Like I don't, like, I don't understand it. I don't need to understand it because I don't need to get rich again.
I'm going to ask.
I'm already wealthy, so I need to do it again. But the younger you are, the more aggressive you could be. And then when you get older, you're supposed to be less aggressive. But you just gave me a scenario where you're 40 and 50. You got to be aggressive. You have to literally take a shot.
I'm gonna ask. I've got a bunch of questions about just how you would even get started before I even go that I want to address two sort of monkeys in the room that no one really talks about. And you're the perfect person to ask. Talk to me about like designer goods and people that spend a lot on cars. What are your thoughts there? And I know you've also changed over the years, you and Chalene. I've watched you change kind of over the years. What is your opinion about that? I know you guys even share a car right now. So I think so if I heard that right. Talk to me about cars and your thoughts on that. Like what you used to believe versus what you know to be true.
Now I just think they're. I think they're a waste. And I think like. And we went through that stage where like Chalene was, you know, would get a designer bag and we would go on vacation and she like, that would be a treat to go like to, you know, Chanel or Louie and get a designer back.
But like, yeah, I know that wore off on Brooks. Thank you for that. So I remember.
Okay. But that's been like. That's been like pipe 15 years ago.
Yeah, for sure.
And so, I mean there was a stage but. But we didn't do that when we were, when we were broke.
So we had that. We were able to like there's a. There's a, like a. And I'm not sure exactly the lyrics or something. I Think it's in a either Drake or Jay Z rap song. If you can't afford it twice, you can't afford it.
Oh, that's good. That's really good.
So that's my. That's one of my other things with a house. Like, if you can't afford the down payment twice, you can't afford the house.
Wow.
So if the house is $1 million and you have to put 20% down, which is 200 grand. If you don't have 400 grand, you can't afford the house.
That makes sense. So what about two cars? Like, are you a fan of. Would you tell somebody they should own their car outright and drive it until it dies? Like, drive it for years or to leave?
Okay.
That's what I do. So I feel proud about that. But what, what are the people that lease a car or they are constantly upgrading?
Well, no, no, not the constantly upgrading. Like, when it gets like the lease comes up, just bump it up. Like, if your lease comes up, like, buy it outright and then pay it off. Like, pay it off. Like, there's nothing better than not having a car payment. Like, get rid of all payments. Yes, get rid of all payments that have interest on them. I don't remember the last. Like, other than, like our house interest rate payment. Like, I don't know if we've made an interest payment on anything other than a house in 15 years.
So if somebody's listening and they're struggling with a lot of this stuff, they're listening to what you're saying. But maybe they own two cars. They own three cars. You would first say, maybe even downsize, make sure you're paying that off or share a car. But you, you're not a fan of, like, having these big car payments at all?
No, no.
So you would rather drive something with.
Your goal when your goal is to retire with something, you know, makes sense. I mean, it's. You, you have to pick your battles. Like, if you want to just work for the rest of your life and you're okay with, like, not having, like, major security and you're just okay with that. All right, there's some people that are like that. There's some people out there that are like, they're living that way because they're, you know, maybe, you know, this baby boomer outfit that's ahead of us. They. They're sitting on trillions of dollars of home equity right now.
Wow.
And all that's going to go to us in some way, shape or form. So there are a lot of people out there that maybe are waiting for that. You know, maybe they're waiting for an inheritance or they're going to get money late. You know, who knows? But if you're in one of those situations that it's all you and you haven't done all the right steps, no matter. There's so many things that can happen. I don't like the excuses. Like, you, like, we could sit here all day and like, get people. I got divorced at 45 and we have to start over. You know, I lost my husband or I lost my wife. Just there's so many different things that can happen. You know, I got in a financial situation and they took off, took us for everything. I was in a business situation and we lost everything because of co. Like, there's so many different things, but if you're stuck, like you're saying in your situation right now, you literally have to go balls to the wall. I'm all in on investing. And you got to do it a little bit more aggressively than conservatively.
Hey there. If you're finding value in this episode of Midlife Conversations, I would really appreciate it if you would hit that, like, button and subscribe. And when that little bell pops up, you want to hit that. That way you are notified of all new episodes so you don't miss a beat. Also, you subscribing and liking helps others find this content and this allows me to keep growing, keep getting amazing new guests for you and to keep sharing. Okay, so you've said that a few times, which. So I know and I know you're passionate knowledge about it. So now I want to ask you about what I know is coming up with, with listeners right now, what they're thinking. And you're so perfect to ask this because I literally know you've walked through all this one. How do you know who to trust to help with investing? How much did you learn yourself and how do you even start learning. And you. I know you learned a lot yourself, but you've also been burned by people that you trusted. So how do you. Because people hear invest and they don't. And they also. And also speak into like the get rich quick thing because we hear a lot of the scammy investment stuff too.
Yeah, yeah, that's. You can't get rich overnight. It's just not a thing.
So if you hear that stuff run, you're not.
Yeah. I mean, even the people that have been in crypto that are like multi millionaires, I mean, they've been in it for like the last 10 or 12 years. It's not like they got in it like a minute ago, you know, you know that type of thing. But you can do it by yourself. You can totally do it. But you can invest by yourself. You could open up a SoFi account, a Robinhood account, and E Trade account, and do everything that I do by my. Like, I do. I could do it all by myself. I don't need a financial advisor.
How long did it take you to learn? And, like, could you think anyone could learn this?
Yeah, I think. Well, I mean, to open up an account and set it up where 15% of your monthly income goes into an s and P500 index fund. You don't need anybody for that. You don't need one person because it's The S&P 500 is. They're already. You don't need to know individual stocks. All you're doing is you're betting on the top 500 companies in America. So as long as America doesn't go bankrupt, which is probably not going to, you're good.
So you don't need an investment person. You're saying you don't need a. You just do on your own. Can go and open that up through, like, E Trade. You could do that and justify Robin Hood.
Totally safe. You have your own account. You can link it to your bank account. You can set it up to where, like, that portion of that money, that percentage goes in, every little extra bit of money can go into there.
So if I'm hearing you correctly, because I want women to like. So, like, if you're in this situation, but you're getting your nails done every month, you're getting. You're doing the extra things. You're maybe going out for the extra dinner with friends. If I'm hearing Brett correctly, instead of doing that, he'd say, open up this account and move that money there and do not do those extra things. Right. That's what you're saying. Like, you, like, you'd have to make some hard decisions and say, take that 15% you're spending on the extra things and put that there right now.
Yeah. And I would pay attention. I would start paying attention to some financial. Maybe some podcasts. Maybe if you're a podcast listener, throw in a couple of financial podcasts. I can give you a couple. And start, like, educating yourself with some of the terms. Now, if you want to be. Once you've been into this a little bit and you want to, like, maybe pick a few stocks, just individual ones, my recommendation is to go with things that you See in here and know every day, like Apple.
Yeah, I was just gonna go like Apple, like something obvious.
Amazon, Amazon, Google, you know, Microsoft, you know, like things that have been around forever and ever and, you know, we've been fortunate enough too. So once you start getting into this a little bit and you start seeing some patterns and, you know, you can pick up, you know, three or four individual stocks that, like, you could maybe put 10% of your portfolio. Let's say you have. Have a hundred thousand dollars and you could take $10,000 and be really risky with that and like, put. Maybe put that in crypto or maybe put that in one of those other, like, what do they call them? I don't even know because I don't like XRP and all those other ones that are a little bit more risky. Or maybe a stock that, like, you're listening to it on a podcast and you're like, wow, this, this seems like it's one of those companies. It's got a potential or something like that. You could do that. Yeah, I probably. For the. Until you really, really understand it. I wouldn't do that. I would just keep it s P500. Okay. And just keep dumping all your money in there.
And that's a long game. So so can speaking. So when you put that in there.
Fast, it can go back. It could go fast. Like if you. I mean, it's fun. Everybody's listening. Has chat GPT. Yeah. Right. You don't even need. And there's calculators that do this, like app calculators. But you can literally just go into chat GPT and just say, okay, I'm starting off with 50,000. Like, you know, maybe $50,000 or something. Right? And I'm gonna put $50,000 in the S P. And then let's say you figured out, like, I can put 1500 bucks or a thousand dollars or 500, whatever the number is, that's my 15 every single month.
Okay.
For the next five years.
Okay.
Right. And you can give them the. You can get. You can say, okay, The S&P 500 is going to make 11%. I. I want this compounded, and I'm going to add a thousand dollars every single month. Okay, we could do that. We could do that. And you could. It would literally, ChatGPT would say, at the end of five years, you. You'll have this much.
Wow. Okay, so everyone, that's your project, pick your open chat GPT, put the numbers and what you. I'm assuming what you want to do is you don't want to look at this thing every day and then watch all the up and down. Do you want to. It's the long game, so you're putting it there. You're not looking at it. You're, like, letting it go. Knowing that over time it's going to do that. I love that advice. Okay. So everyone can do that. So it's interesting because it's the same conversation that I. And I know it's a whole different topic, but I'll look at this with even fitness, fat loss. People will say, I can't afford. It's always that, that word, I can't afford. And you have a quote that I've quoted you on many times. You always say, scared money doesn't make money. Can you talk about that? Because.
Yeah.
Explain what you mean when you say that.
Well, I mean, it's, it's just like right now, it's perfect. Like, exactly. The stock market is crashing, right? Like, it's, it's, it's having a horrible day. Here we are on October 10. So people are listening to this. They can go back and look at it. The stock market right now is down. Let's just take a look. Quick little look. It is getting absolutely. I'm, I'm doing everything. I'm opening my E Trade account. Okay. The Dow Jones is down 750 points. The Nasdaq is down 714 points, and the S P is down 156 points. The Nasdaq, which is like really, like where all the tech stocks are and stuff like that that you hear about, is down 3%. That's crazy. That's like. If I told you how much money my portfolio lost today, you'd be like, holy shit. Right? Like, you don't even look like you've lost it. I wouldn't know if you lost or made money today because I know over time it's going to go up. I, I know that. I know over time. And that's what you have to, like. You have to really set yourself when you're doing this. Like it's going to go up over time. So what I say to do. Because this is a hard day to do this, this is hard. Like, I'm going to add money.
Well, I already have because it's low, so you might as well.
Yeah. All your women like a good sale at Nordstrom's, right? Yeah. Why? Or if Amazon has a sale, right? It's the same thing. All these stocks are on sale.
So how long?
Because you.
Were you always like this about the market or Is this, like, how did you think years ago? Because you had debt years ago, like, when you were struggling years ago, like, what were your thoughts then versus, like, what, you know now?
I was like, once we started. So this is 21 years. Okay, so we've been in investing 21 years. I would say the last 15 have been really, like, I've known. They took me five or six years to really get comfortable with it. And so the first, probably four or five years, I was always like, when the market would go down, I'd be like. And I would see the portfolio, like, go down. I'd be like, oh, no, this is. This is scary. Like, this could go to, like. Like, this could go to zero, and then we're back to zero again. But then, like, over time, you, like, you get confident with, like, no, these are good companies. People are just panicking. And then it's human nature for people to, like, sell because. And who knows why they're selling. Yeah, they might be selling because they have to. They have to pay for a wedding next month. I don't know. I don't know why people are selling their stocks. But all I know is, like, over time, like, you're a moron if you sell, like, Apple stock, because they said, like, they sold 5% less to China last month. Like, you're gonna sell the stock because of that. Like, no, I mean, it's Apple. Everybody's has one. Yeah. And if you don't have one, I.
Would say it's the same thing with. Honestly, anything. Like, I. It's the same thing with somebody trying to get healthy. Like, they're not gonna just give up because they had a bad day on the scale or they don't just throw in the towel.
Yeah, you went out to. You went out to Mexican restaurant and you ate perfectly, but you had the. You had the flan for dessert. You're not, like, gonna go, okay, I'm done. Like, no. And so you get to the point where, like, it's just one of those things that's just like a repetition type thing where, like, oh, the market comes back. Oh, the market comes back. So, like, in April this year, the stock market was, like, plummeting. Like it was when they announced all the tariffs. And everybody's like, the sky is falling and the world's coming to an end. And like, oh, my God, the economy is so bad. I had a number because I do this. I predicted. I didn't predict. You can't predict the market. But I had, like. I had numbers that were set, like, when they, when it got to a certain point, like they had sold off a certain amount I was going to add, well, I got lucky. I added a bunch of money and it ended up being the lowest part of the market for the entire year and I added a bunch of money to it. And so that's another thing. Like you could always have extra money too. Never try to time the market. That's why I'm always like, just do it every month, right? If you do it every single month, you put in, you know, your 15 every month and you know it's, it's not going to matter. You're going to some months you're going to pick it and it's on a high month and I mean a high time. And then other months you're going to pick it slow. So don't even worry about that. Like over time it's all even out.
It's interesting because you have this full knowing of like it's all going to work out. It, you just have a knowing around that. And it's because you have proven that to yourself. Like you, you, you have that proof and you know that. I think what happens is a lot of people, they don't, they just don't have that knowing yet. They don't have it. So they'll hear a comment from you like I've been investing for 21 years or we have plenty of money, or they'll hear these comments and they think, well that's good for you. I don't, they don't have, they have a different story. I'm assuming your advice is they, they have to almost start thinking like you that they have to start thinking with that knowing otherwise they're not going to change.
They got to try. They got to trust. They literally have to trust that like guys like Warren Buffett who you know were 60 years old when they made their first billion dollars. Right. I mean you're like, that's crazy. But he's still like, you could Google like, like some of these guys that are like really, really wealthy and stuff like that like that are been in CEOs of these crazy companies. Like a billion's a crazy amount. But a lot of them didn't make that until they were in like their late 50s or 60s or so. It can be done. And I'm not saying like you're, you're going to invest in one of these corporations and you're going to become a multi millionaire overnight. It's not going to happen. But over time, like, you know, if your life expectancy is going to be in this, you know, 75, 80 years old. And you start now and you're like, you're going to be good. You're going to be good by the time you're 65. Like, yeah, if you just. But you just. You almost have to double down, right. You have to almost like catch up on time because you didn't do it earlier to have the gains and stuff. Like, so you, so you have to trust. And then if you don't, like, if you're. There's going to be people out here, Natalie, that are listening and they're just like. Like, they don't trust.
Yeah. I think that the not trust thing is. Is a big one. I had my own personal trust issue about housing market because I had lost my house back, you know, in 2007. So I understand where that comes from. If you had something happen, you build up your own belief. But the reason I wanted to interview you is like, I feel like if we can get in the mindset of somebody that has. That's actually in the space, that's what we need to learn from, not from our past mistakes. So when I think most people that are struggling, they're living in their past mistakes versus learning how did someone who got out of this or how did someone that's succeeding, what are. How are they operating? What are their beliefs? Because we have to act as if we have to assume those beliefs in order to make a change. That's what I think.
Yeah. It's almost like. It's weird to say, but yeah. I mean, it's pain. Like, it's like not painful. That's a wrong word. But it's not fun to look at your portfolio on a day like today and see it down like crazy.
Yeah.
But then I go, but it's been up so much this year, so. Okay, so what's this doing? It's just giving me the opportunity to buy something cheaper.
Yeah.
Which I know it's going to rebound. So then when it rebounds, it's actually going to make more.
Makes sense.
So it's getting in that mindset. It's like. And then if it never go, like, just keep putting money in. And if something happens where. If it keeps going down and down and down, like. And you're just like, you almost have to get to the mindset. It's just like, oh, my gosh, is there anything that we can do right now to put more money in there? Because you're behind and you need something like this to happen. You need like, if it Just keeps going up and up and up, like at a steady pace. Right. You almost need like a pullback like the housing market. Some money. Yeah, like housing market. Get some money infused in there so it shoots up again.
Yeah. You know, there's another area that I've. And because I know you as a friend, I've seen this and I think this has something to do with how good of a generator you are and how smart you've been with money. Like you Angeline are extremely. You have a very generous mindset. Even when you didn't have extra, you've always had this like. And so whether people look at that as tithing or donating or helping people, you've always come from that place of abundance versus like we don't have if. Could you speak a little bit into that? Because you've done that even when you literally didn't have all that extra. And I believe that has something to do with, I mean I believe in money being energy and sort of like because you put out, it comes back. I don't know that maybe that sounds a little weird or woo woo. But I, I watch that about people that seem to be successful over time, they tend to have a very generous mindset. I've noticed that.
Yeah, I think it's something that you're raised with like, you know, we can stem most things back to like our parents and Chalene's coming from an entrepreneurial background. Right. They went an up ups and downs with, with the way entrepreneurs do. Like we got a ton of money, we don't have much money. But they never talked about the times when they didn't have money. So there was always like it's all gonna work out okay. That's Chalene's mindset. It's all, it's just all gonna work out. My mindset was my dad was. And my, my side of the family was like so generous. Like I can remember my grandfather's like his thing was like he would have a Cadillac for two years and he would give it to one of his kids and it was going to be my aunt, uncle, then he'd have. So it was always like this thing. And so I always saw like, oh, so you just, you just give, you just keep giving to people and stuff like that and like I guess it just all works out.
So would you still be like if you didn't. So you, you've just always been like that. Even if you don't feel like you have a lot or you have extra, you're. You'll help you you're always of that, like, mindset of, I'm gonna donate or I'm gonna type like you do something.
Like, I'm competitive, so I like to see everybody win.
Yes, yes.
I'm very. I'm a athlete coach, so I'm very. Like, I like other people. Like, I want other people to win.
That's so good.
You know, it like, hurts me when I. When I hear, like, oh, they got, you know, it went bad or something. You know, something went bad. So it's like, how can we? How can we? That's why I've, like, helped so many friends that, like, when they call me, I'm just like, sure, I'll, like, help, you know, And I try to get as to as many young people as I can in my, like, my, like my son's friends, my daughter's friends, you know, people that I. My older friends, kids. I try to get to them early that have already had successful jobs and just like, you gotta start this early. Like, just trust me. Just trust me. And I get great messages. Like, just like, text messages, like, I'll forget. And they'll be like, remember five years ago when you told me to start putting money away? Well, I did, and it's like, tripled. I'm like, that's amazing. You know, it's like, I love that. It's like, that's what I like. That's what I like when people, like, people win.
I see you helping so many people, especially young people. I see so much of this in midlife. It's so. It's so bizarre to me that how much it's come out. I think people have a shame around it. So it's not talked about a lot, but I usually see this when I do, like, more like, private surveys or I'm at, like, when it's not a public conversation. And it's a real losing sleep thing for some midlifers. So. And that's why I thought it was so important to have this conversation.
But to be honest with you, that's a really good question because I'm thinking about it. And the. Oh, so our. Our age group, 50s, have. Have gone through that. You know, the. The housing crisis. And then they went through a little bit of, like, a little a recession, like, coming out of it for about four or five years. And then the next biggest thing that we had was covet.
Yep.
And, you know, Covid was one of those things where more millionaires were made during COVID than anything because people that had extra income saw that the market just Crashed. And. And then we also had people that were scared to death. So it was like a mindset thing. Like, so people were, like, literally scared to death. Like, this was. This is the end. And they took all their money out, and it. And it ricocheted back so fast that if you took your money out, you lost. Yeah. You lost all those opportunities. There's, like. I think there's some kind of, like, some statistic that this is why you keep your money in investing. Because if you. There's like four or five days a year that the market has these giant swings up and down, and if you try to time them, which nobody can because nobody has a future crystal ball, then if you have your money out during those four or five days, like, you lose all the. Like, remember the 11%? I told you. You lose all of that. Like, you. You. You can't get. But you might even lose even more. So it's just. It's just to keep the money in. Add to it on days that, like. Like, seems like the sky is falling. Like when. Whenever the news is, like, the sky is falling, everybody's, you know, look out. You're, like, going to your bank account and, like, putting more in and not looking at it.
Yep.
We lost, like, $6 million the first two days of COVID Wow. Six million. Wow. In the market. But we didn't lose it because it was just paper.
Yeah. It's like Monopoly money.
So it's like. It's like, you know, and I was just like, I've already been here before. It's coming back. Let's put in more. And it was like, back up. And within a month, it was already back up and up, you know, up, you know, a couple million over that. It was just like, you know, it's just like. But I know people were texting me, and they're like, I took all my money out. I'm done. Wow. I'm like, don't do that.
What about people who. It's different with their spouse? So, like, they don't. They have different opinion. Like, maybe the woman's listening right now, and she's like, I hear you. I want to do this. But the spouse has a very different opinion. Any guidance or advice on that to get couples on the same page?
Well, I mean, you have to, like, if we're. We're having this conversation about, you know, you haven't done all the work and you want to have some kind of retirement, and you want to be able to enjoy your 60s and 70s without, like, having to, like, have Stress and work. I mean, that's the conversation. Like, yeah, hey, honey, we have no choice.
Yeah. What we're doing is not working.
We either do this or we just sign off on. We're working into our 70s and 80s. And, you know, that's no fun. I do do. Which is really helped with Chalene because Charlene's doesn't care. Like, she's just like, just know that we have enough. And, like, you know, in Brett, I trust you to take care of it. So we have a shared note, which everybody can do. And it has every single one of our investments. And bank accounts. Not account numbers, just bank account. Right. I updated every two weeks.
So she just knows.
So whenever she wants, she could just go in and go, oh, we're doing this. And I don't even know if she looks.
Yeah.
But then again, if something were to happen to me, she's got y. The number to the financial advisor, the number of the accountant, and that's all you need, like, those two people. And, you know, you'll. You'll. You know, she's on everything, so. But she'll know where everything's at, how much is in each account. You know, Makes sense. Another thing that we hadn't talked about, like, like an emergency fund. Yeah, like, you know, like, people that, like, it's important to have emergency fund because that's a, you know, a security blanket. I don't know if I would put. I would. But that's me. I'm a little bit more riskier. My gambling background still comes out in this way that if I was stuck behind the eight ball, I would still have the emergency fund, but I would invest the emergency fund. Wow. That makes sense. Yeah. Because it could go up or down, but I. And I need it. But I would take that risk. Wow.
Do you think it's funny you mentioned. You mentioned the gambling thing. Do you think that is what actually helps make you such a good investor? Because you. It's like you almost love that game and. But you're doing a safer game now.
Yes. 100% interesting. And it was. It was everything. Even. I always had that in me. Even when, like, when I played sports and stuff like that. The competitive. Because the gambling, to me, wasn't like, it was just a competitive thing. Like, I stopped playing sports, and it was just like the next thing. Like, I got addicted to something that was competitive because I wasn't playing competitively anymore. So it was just. So it's more of a competitive thing. And I look at, like, the stock market as a Competitive game. Like, okay, how can we make our portfolio go up even more? How can we put money here and here? And that's how I evaluate things. Like, can we making these moves make our portfolio stronger and will it increase it faster? And so that's kind of the way I look at it. So, yeah, I mean, I, and then I just had good therapy and, and figured out like, you know, it wasn't like I needed to gamble, I just needed some kind of a better outlet.
Yeah.
And I just, I literally just poured all my attention into learning this stuff.
So for those of you, I'm gonna link up Brett's Instagram. I know he doesn't do a lot on Instagram, but he does share on his stories and he shares some pretty insightful stuff with finances and, and tips there. But I'm going to encourage you all to really lean into this because the way we learn things and get better is by learning from people that are actually doing it. I don't believe in, we just have to go to the expert in the field. We have to just, I want proof of people actually doing it. Like if you want to better your relationship, you look at people that have a good relationship, you want to better your health, you look at somebody who has good health like you, you follow those people. So the reason I really wanted to interview Brett today on this is I. He's literally living this life and I've watched him over the years. I've known him for quite some time now. I've watched him through the ins and outs and honestly operating from this mindset. So if you're hearing him and you're saying, well, I don't know how to do that or I don't want to learn how to do that, just going to encourage you to lean in and challenge that and try to learn because that is how we get better and how we change and how we grow with these things.
Exactly. You have to be willing to put yourself out there. And I know it's scary because it's money. It's that it's a scary, it's like a scary thing. And people have serious hang ups and mindset issues on money because their parents, you know, use those words like, what do you think money grows on trees? We can't afford that. You know, it sets that.
Yeah.
You know, you've done, you've done enough therapy to know like that can mess you up and it takes you into your adult. You just don't do it. So you have to change your mindset around it. But you know What I think the best lesson that they can do is do that thing in chat. Gbt. Like, just mess around with it.
Yeah, I'm gonna play.
Go in there and play. Play with the numbers. Like, okay, yeah, I figured it out. Like, this is what I could do. 15. I'm 45 years old. I have this much money. Oh, wow. He said, like, even emergency fund. Well, if you don't feel safe about that, keep your emergency fund. But don't have your emergency fund in a savings account. Have your emergency fund in a money market, like an account like a wealthfront or SoFi, that's making 4% that you could. That acts as account where you can just take it in and out, no fees, but you're at least making a little bit of money off and see that number.
I love that advice. And then do you. If somebody wants to. Besides chat, obviously, which. Going there and playing with the numbers. If somebody is like, okay, I hear you. I want to learn. I want to start diving in. Do you have any resources or advice or places they should? Like, what would you recommend they read or listen to? Or how do they even start?
Okay, so on cnbc, the halftime show, it's a one hour. They convert. So if you can't watch it live, it's like on at noon Eastern time. It's plays that night on their. On their podcast. So the CNBC app, okay, it's called the Halftime Show. And then the book that I mentioned, the Money Game by, I think that it's. It's like the Wealth Money Game, it's some weird title, but it's Tony Robbins and then Josh Brown.
Okay.
Who is one of the. He's a frequent guest on the halftime show. He has his own podcast called Compound and Friend. And he has some really great guests on there. And he's in our wheelhouse. He's probably five years behind us. He's got a kid, kid at Miami. He's got a kid in high school. He's got, you know, he's running this company. So he's, you know, probably, you know, mid to late 40s type of guy. But, you know, he owns an investment firm. But he's got great guests on the way he invests and stuff like that. I like him.
Okay, so great places to start. And then you could follow. You can follow Brett. And then if. Obviously I'm gonna also link. So this is kind of fun. Well, Chalene has. Chalene's one of my super close friends, his wife. They have a podcast, but they have a Patreon where they do. It's now the Brett show on her vault. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna link to you but you do share a lot of tips in there that I've actually picked up on and learned on And.
I do like you said on my stories, we have two major Instagrammers in our family. We don't need like we the most.
You're not one of them. I know that. But you do drop great tips when.
You do share in my story. So if you follow me, I do put stuff all the time and like today I didn't do it today but I normally I would have put in like go buy today like literally a reminder like go buy stocks, they're on sale like that type of thing. But yeah so that's story's word going.
Thank you so much but you're so knowledgeable with this stuff and you're so good at explaining it so thank you so much.
You're welcome.
It.
More from Natalie
How Natalie Jill Fitness Was Born - The Journey From Corporate To Fitness To Midlife Conversations
