How to Bounce Back After Your Life Falls Apart in Your 40s

What happens in midlife when you've got setbacks and changes? Maybe it's a divorce, maybe it's you are now a new empty nester, you've got a business change, maybe you've got a death. But things tend to shift in midlife. And when you are in midlife and things start to shift, sometimes we don't have the support system that we had. When you're younger, when you're in your teens and your twenties and even your thirties, you've got a lot of friends. And then we get busy with life, things change with our careers, our business, our spouses, raising kids and things change. And when things tend to fall apart, sometimes it can feel very heavy. Like, what are the resources? What do we need to change? What do we need to look for to start feeling better, improving? And as my guest today call it, how do we glow up Today I'm interviewing a very special duo from London. They are the Sweaty AF is the name of their podcast and their show. I'm talking to Joey and Lucy today and this is a fun episode. If you're watching on video, they're actually in their sauna. They record their episodes, their interviews in their sauna. Therefore they call it sweet Sweaty af, which is super fun. And the reason I wanted to interview them specifically is they actually met in a sauna, going through a divorce, navigating a very hard time in their lives. And through the sauna and their connection, they seem to figure out these pillars, these sort of ways that helped them not only heal but as they say, glow up their life where they are now thriving. They've got a great show, they got a great community of their own and they themselves have become very good friends. So I'm really excited to interview them today. Thank you so much for being here today. Joey and Lucy, thank you for having us.

Thank you. So excited, so excited.

So I want to start a little bit with your story because it's super unique. What was going on? How did you meet in Asana? What's, what's happening there?

Okay, so this is so we. I was coming up well for starting a divorce, still living with my now ex husband and wanted to escape the house. It was post, just post Covid and I found myself in the Longevity Studio.

Which had a sauna and, and I also similar story. I was not quite divorced yet, but I was unhappily married, let's say and looking for a little escape and some space for myself. And also post Covid wasn't feeling my best. I was in my late 30s, I think I was, probably had hormone dysregulation and I was just feeling very tired, not myself. And I wanted to kind of take some ownership of that and, and this was my first step sauna where I.

Met Lucy, where we met. We were very different people. You were very different people. We were. It was five years ago. I just had my 40th birthday. I think something hits you when you turn 40 as well, that you, you feel a midlife shift. And my shift was getting with my ex husband.

So then, so then in the sauna, we would sit and talk about various biohacks, as we kind of like to call them. It's like health optimization measures. How were we increasing our energy, how were we sleeping better, what our nutrition was, what our exercise regime was and how that was working for us individually and sharing our almost kind of DIY processes that we were going through. And very often there would be somebody else sitting in the sauna in between us, listening to this backwards and forwards conversation.

What you tried? What did I try? How much are you sleeping? You've lost weight. We both lost a significant amount of weight.

And then we decided that actually the connection that we had made, the sauna and the therapy that talking about this and our situation had given us, we really wanted to share this with other people because we felt it helped us so much, it could help other women, other men in our situation. So we started a podcast called Sweaty AF because we sit and sweat it out in the sauna. And initially it was just these conversations between us, but then it's grown into us interviewing specialists to give our audience insights into other health optimization modalities, which.

First, I love that you call it health optimization, because I've never loved the word biohack and I always. I call it age optimization. So I love that you say health optimization too. There's something just sounds a little bit more powerful to say that we're going to optimize versus we're going to hack.

Absolutely. We completely agree it. So it is what we're doing, but it's a term we also don't love.

We've had other terms recently like bio harmonizing, which we kind of like those vibes as well. It's about just getting in tune with.

Yourself, so living better for longer.

So you know what's funny is when you think about a sauna, most people obviously are sweaty in there. You're usually vulnerable, like you're in there naked or you're in there with your bikini and your towel and whatever. And most people I Think don't really talk in a sauna. They're just there sweating and detoxing and eliminating stuff which you figured out. This other important piece like I'm going to eliminate my emotions. We're going to talk this through, we're going to get this out. How did, first of all, how did that conversation even start up? Because I think a lot of people don't even talk in a sauna.

I think. Well, one, it was a very small sauna. So it was a three person sauna in a very small private studio. So we all did get to know each other through the other longevity practices that we were doing within the studio. So we would sit in the sauna and, and discuss the other practices that we, we were each taking part in. But there is definitely something for Joey and I and we are finding it with other people. There is a vulnerability to being in the sauna. There is also an opening of the mind and your energies are releasing and there's, there's connections happening. In a mass sauna, of course some people are there to really relax and they don't want that kind of community and communication. But in the, in the situation we were, because it was such a small sauna and such a small wellness space.

They became friendships and it was a very gentle conversation. Like I would say, we often paired the sauna with doing cold therapy first. And cold therapy means you have to become very present. You have to lean into the breath work and then I think you go into the sauna to warm up and you've, you've had almost this few minutes meditation and then you step into the sauna and it's this beautiful, warm, almost kind of like womb, like space cavernous that allows you to feel open. And you, you, you are completely right. You do feel vulnerable because maybe you don't have many clothes on. You may be a little body conscious but you're sitting there with other people who have taken that step to do that for themselves as well. So I think you kind of know you're all in that, that headspace.

How did you, what did you figure out? Because you all became friends. You started to show. You had this like huge, as you call it, glow up. You, you lost weight. You change. When you look back at to the advice you would give somebody, they're, they're in a hard space right now and they are probably. If you're in a hard space and we've all been there, you're either like completely in your head, like you're almost paralyzed. You can't, you can't think outside of it. You want to stay in bed, you want to stay home, you want to hide, you can't get out of it, or you're in a complete avoidance space. I noticed like, kind of those two extremes, like, either I'm going to completely hide, I'm going to not deal with the world, or I'm going to just stay so busy and. And not. You kind of found this middle spot. Like, what advice do you give somebody that is listening right now that they are feeling that stuck thought and they're almost. They're stuck with, what's my next step? What do I do?

We've been in all three of those spots. We really were. I was in a particularly dark place when we started there. And we can completely empathize with. I don't think it's taking the first.

Step exactly that small step.

Just one small step and then stack them and we have. When we say glow up, we're not. We're not just meaning physically. Our lives have entirely changed. We're both. We have very good relationships with our ex husbands, so there's no animosity there. Our children are all very happy and thriving. Our businesses are thriving. We've got the podcast. It's an overall glow up of life. We changed our careers fully.

But it did come down to that first step, one step. And for us, it was like, it was very literal. It was that step into the sauna. So maybe if I'm carving out time for myself three, four times a week to go and take a sauna, I feel better, I sleep better, so then perhaps I eat better, so then perhaps I want to move more. So then it's like this beautiful snowball effect because you took that first step and it doesn't matter how small it is, but you just have to take it and only you can take it.

Yeah, I love that. Why sauna for? I know, it's funny, when I. Before we started the recording, I said, I was asking them questions and I said, okay, take me through, like the process of how did you meet and. And how did you start to heal? And they kept reiterating that the song. They give so much credit to the sauna. And I said, well, I don't want this to be an ad for sauna.

But.

But they kept saying, yes, but the sauna was so instrumental and, you know, full transparency. They don't, they don't sell asana. They're not. They're not selling a sauna right now. But they really do credit the idea of asana. For helping them heal. Can you kind of break down? Why is it. It just the heat? Is it the space? Is the company. Like, what is it about sauna? And do you do. Is it infrared? Does it matter? Like, what. Tell us what. What you figured out there.

Okay.

Well, I. I think the sauna, the process of sauna is like, historically, culturally, is very much taking time for yourself, coming together in community, leaning yourself, detoxing. And I think there's a very like, physical and also metaphorical detox that goes on in the sauna. I think we were detoxing emotionally, spiritually, mentally. And I think it's just that space. You get a little bit of community. We got some purpose from. From talking together, from working together. And I think it's also looking about what you need to eliminate from your life. So it's obviously a sauna can help you. An infrared sauna, for example, is quite good at doing heavy metal detox and things like that. But also maybe it's detoxing what you're watching on the news, who you're speaking to, toxic relationship. So I think with sa just puts you in the headspace of what do I need to bring into my life and what do I need to release? Because that's what sauna does. It brings good things in and it gets bad things out.

Ultimately, it also creates a resilience in you to deal with the rest of your life because you are dealing with intense heat. So the body, physical, physiologically, is dealing with something that. And particularly with us, we do the cold therapy as well. So the resilience comes into that, which I do think goes out into the rest of your life.

Explain what you mean by cold therapy, because not everybody knows. I mean, I'm thinking you're talking about cold plunge or cryotherapy or cold shower. Like, what. What do you think about and how important is that contrast of cold and hot? And if somebody doesn't have a cold plunge or cryo, what do. How do you suggest they take that on?

So we started with cryotherapy, for. We were probably doing cryotherapy for three, four years. And we now have an ice bath, which we both love. And actually, we'd struggle to go back to cryotherapy. It's not something that we do every single time that we sauna. It depends on if we've done some weight training. We wouldn't want to finish with cold because your gains wouldn't be where you need them to be. But it's part of our protocol, and everybody's Protocol is different, but we do different. We do rounds of hot, cold, hot, and we always end on a cold.

Okay.

And it also varies during your cycle during like periods of maybe stress, because as Lucy said, the heat is a stressor, the cold is a stressor. And although they're both like these short term acute stressors which help us build resilience over time, we don't want to overload that stress bucket. So people often ask us, what is the sauna protocol? What is the contrast therapy protocol? And we always come back to the point that your protocol is for you, it's very individual and you really have to lean into your body's intuition. And part of the process of using sauna and cold therapy is understanding your body a little bit better.

Well, and also step by step, slowly lean into each practice and build up.

So what would you like somebody listening in there saying, okay, I, I'm hearing, but what do I, how do I even start to even get? Like, what would you tell somebody? Like, how did you do it the first time?

Start slow. So start coming into the sauna. Depending on what sauna you're using, obviously if you're using an infrared, it will be a lower temperature, so you perhaps have more capacity to stay in a little bit longer. But as soon as you start feeling uncomfortable, you get out. Same with the cold therapy. You may dip into the shower or the cold bath for 30 seconds to begin with. And that's okay. You have to just lean in and how the body feels and just build it up over time because as we said, it is a resilience physically and.

It'S a big stressor on the body. And also not just 30 seconds when you first start. Because there are some days like today, Joey could do two minutes, I could do 30 seconds. You've just got to listen to your body and how it responds to both of the stressors.

And then when you, so, so you like to start with hot, so you get so hot first. And then just when you start getting uncomfortable getting out and going into the cold. So, so it could be cryo, but you like cold bath or ice, B, cold plunge. And then. Or if someone listening doesn't have that, it could be a cold shower. I'm assuming, like we often do a cold shower.

Yeah, we'll often do that.

And then, and so you do whatever your body's thinking. It could be 30 seconds, it could be a few minutes, and then you go back typically to the hot.

Yeah, yeah. And typically we will always end on a cold because it's Great to end on cold because the body keeps, then can bring itself up to temperature naturally. It's very good for the metabolism, very good for various things, inflammation. But if we've done a very big strength training session, we won't do too much cold therapy.

And what's the reason you're saying that's detrimental for the strength or what is that doing?

It just, it's encouraging your body to repair quicker and we want that to slow down that process a little bit more so that the muscles get some growth in them.

Okay.

Okay. And then for, for sauna, you mentioned infrared versus traditional sauna. What's your preference and why?

Oh, this is a question we always get asked. So we did meet in an infrared, which we love, but each has their own benefits. They're very different and we use both because that's our ideal world and we're. And we're.

We're really sitting on the fancy.

Yeah, no, because we genuinely do love both. I mean, they do have such different benefits. If you were able to have both, I would have both.

For example, the infrared for the skin is so nice. The skin feels so good after being in infrared.

And the toxins as well.

Yeah.

I mean, if they're heavy metals, if you want to.

Pain, I would imagine pain and inflammation.

Yeah.

But then the traditional sauna, you know, particularly if you're doing a guided sauna, perhaps you're having the aafgus, you've got some essential oils. It's very sensory, it's very. It's very beautiful.

I would also say for longevity, the traditional. Because the cardiovascular benefits far greater in a.

Why is that? Because you're getting a higher body temperature or what's the reason?

Yeah, so your, your heart is just. The vascular pump is just working more.

So it's like doing a cardio session.

Yeah, basically.

Yeah.

It mimics exercise and obviously the hotter the temper, the more intense that is. So.

And how long do you like to do either?

Or we could last in there quite a while. Probably more than most. We would typically as a starting session, we would say try 10 minutes in the sauna. Maybe a minute plunge. 10 minutes. Minute plunge. We, we like to do longer.

And an infrared, definitely.

Oh, and an infrared. Stand there for maybe 45 minutes. And. Yeah. Do you.

And do you do both on the same day ever?

Yeah, we have. Yes.

But also to note that the reason we did cryotherapy is you can'. Go in and out of the.

When you're sweating. So you can.

Right, that makes sense. It'll freeze.

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, now how, how did you feel this helped with your healing of your midlife trauma? Because you had a lot going on. I mean, you're divorced, you're changing, you have kids, you have a lot changing and going on. And you said you kind of felt all those stages. So obviously there's a lot of health benefits to hot and cold and opt, you know, the biohacking stuff. But how do you personally, if you were to look back and go, this helped me heal and shift mentally, what do you think was happening there and why?

We have a release of endorphins, which is, you know, helping our mood and also your cortisol. So when I was going through the toughest time, I think I was maybe sleeping two or three hours a night. And your body is then struggling with everything else. The next day I was, immediately after using the sauna, I started sleeping better. My cortisol levels were reduced significantly. And we, you know, we, we do test ourselves as well. So the, the hacks that we are doing, they are, are biologically working and we've taken metabolic. Wait.

This is really important and something I would have never thought of before. So I, I, I want, I want to, I want to revisit that for a second here. When people are depressed or stressed, which is what a divorce would do, which is what a loss of a job would do, which would what, becoming an empty nester. And then you couple on hormone changes, which you girls are a little younger, but you add that into the mix and it's in a whole, it's a whole nother level. Right. So now we've got sleep deprivation and cortisol dysregulation and both of those things are not helping us with stress. Stress, Right. So we're, it's hard to heal when your body's in a state of stress. So what you all just said, I don't, it's, I want to just really highlight this here because when we feel stress and we're not sleeping and we're having cortisol spikes, the natural go to is something like a pill. Like people think, well, I must take melatonin or I must take a sleeping pill or I must take whatever, but that's not actually healing, it's a band aid. So what if I heard you correct, what you're saying is we're using some of these measures like sauna and the hot cold therapy, which aside from all these other health benefits, it's helping my cortisol regulation and my stress. And now I'm sleeping So my body is able to heal and process quicker. Did I say that right? Is that basically okay? This is huge because I think a lot of people have not tied that together.

I mean, hot cold therapy itself is amazing for circadian rhythm regulation as well. And we found that over the years that our sleep, both of us, is huge. They improve. Yes.

And we obviously, we track everything as well. It was, it was almost an immediate response with the, with the stress on the body of the hot and the cold that my sleep got better.

And I think, yeah, yeah, likewise. And also I think that was coupled with the mindset shift of I am prioritizing myself. And I think that that is something that really comes out in these periods of trauma, is that you, as particularly as a mother, you always prioritizing other people. But I think the mind shift, course I have to look after myself so that I can be a good mom, I can be a good friend, I can be a good daughter, I can be a good ex wife. Yeah, but. And I think that was a big shift for me, was like, actually I'm worthy of giving myself all of this time and attention and priority.

So I want to add just another layer. And maybe I'm completely wrong here, but I think also when people are stressed, let's say someone's listening and they're like, okay, I kind of hear you. So I'm going to go jump in a sauna. And they go to the. One of their gym and now they bring their cell phone in. Like, so they're in this sauna with their cell phone, still dealing with cortisol and stress. But what you did different is you didn't have that. Instead you're connecting with each other and you're talking. So it's almost like, can you, can you speak into that a little bit? Because I think that makes a difference too.

It was like a therapy session.

It was. And I. And, and. But first of all, I will say we did sit down, not speak for some time, and then there was a little opening up and then the vulnerability comes out. And it's just we struggle to describe this because we get asked this quite a lot. It is, is something that happens in your mind. There's a release of the stresses of life when you're in this pod, I.

Think because potentially it probably feels like a safe space. Like you said, when you leave your cell phone outside, you leave your wearers outside the door. It's very primal space. It's very warm. It's like a cave. Your body relaxes you. The sauna does the heat does physically relax you. So your shoulders drop, your breathing those down, your central nervous system starts to regulate. And then I think that's the moment when you go, oh, yeah, wow, I can breathe again. And this is happening.

That's so. I feel like. And that's, I think, the way somebody would describe maybe like hot yoga or even like an intense workout. But I think it makes it a little easier. Like, that's not. You're just going in a box. Like, you're literally just walking in there. So you don't have to think through anything.

Yeah, exactly.

There's no thought process, really. It's. It's a very mindful practice on it. And I think that's probably something that we've tried to lean into a little bit. So incorporate a little bit of breath work. In sauna mindfulness, we don't always sit there and. And chat to each other the whole time. We will be quite intentional about sauna practice.

A lot of mind work in there and a lot of leaning into.

So if you had a friend right now that or somebody listening, they're like, they're going through stuff in their life, would this literally be the first thing you would say? Like, get yourself in a sauna? Would you. Are you that much of a. Like, this is the answer for people?

Do you.

Would you say that? Would you say, get in asana?

I would.

I absolutely would. But there are a number of other things that people need to do to.

What. What some of those things.

I mean, I think walking is phenomenal. We walk. We incorporate best part, 20,000 steps a day into our job.

We make amazing. 20,000.

Yeah, we're averaging that Monday to Friday. Yeah.

Because along with that, you're outside, so you're getting the morning sunlight in your eyes. You're getting movement, you're getting nature.

Okay, now hold on a second. You just said 20,000 steps a day outside. I just want to reiterate, I'm recording them right now in winter time. They live in London, so it's not exactly a hot and sunny day there.

We lean into the cold. We lean.

Okay, talk about that. Because people here, like. Because I live in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I lived in San Diego before, and I don't know if you're familiar with those areas, but they're like sunny year round and warm. So people say to me, well, oh, you have it warm there, but I share what you do because it is not sunny there and it is cold.

No, it's cold and it rains a lot. But it's A commitment because we know and we have some of our best ideas when we walk, when you're outside, you're in, in the daylight. It doesn't have to be sunlight. We know that that light will help us sleep at. We've regulated our circadian rhythm.

You're still getting the full spectrum of light even in, even in winter in the uk. Well, you'll get it most.

No, this is important. I want, I want people to hear this because I think that's a crutch that people say, well, I don't live in a nice area. But you live in the UK and it is. I live there and it's wet a.

Lot of the time it's wet and.

It'S cold and it's foggy. There's a reason they say London fog.

So.

Yeah.

So.

But you're still getting the benefit.

We are. We're not precious with how we look. We'll often have soaking hair. Yeah. We're often got sauna hair. Soaking hair. We both love being outside. We both love walking. We, you know, really precious about the sun.

But I think it's the same with everything because it's really easy to make an excuse.

Yeah.

And that's one of our. That's why we say just take the one step.

And I think, well, we will tell you some of the. Oftentimes we'll have. Well, you're very lucky because you can incorporate it into your job. We are really fortunate. But we each wake up at 5am in the morning to make sure that we convenient fit everything in that we, we want to. We're both single moms to two kids each. So there's a. We're just busy. We, we fit it in. Never to preach because everybody's life's different. Everybody has a different struggles in life. But if you can, and I would never say 20,000 steps, we are, you know, very committed to that.

Yes.

Any level of walking. Walk to the sauna.

That's what we do.

Okay, so we will walk. You would tell them people, hot, cold therapy, primarily sauna. And what else would you tell them? Like, so they're right now they're in this struggle and they need to just do. What else did you, what else do you do?

The sun. It is very important to get natural daylight in your eyes as soon as you wake up.

Even if it's cloudy.

Yeah. But outdoors, Outdoors.

Yeah.

If you're seeing light through a car window or a house window, it's seriously diluted. So getting outside I think is the big one.

Outside moving and Sleep is so incredibly important. So it's setting up your day which that does, does to work for you to go to bed and have a restful night's sleep. So we have sleep practices that we put into place. So there's no, I mean we're a little different tonight but normally we'll have our blue light blockers on and screens will be off before, before bed dim lights.

Speaking of which, how you know in the US at least coastal areas, depending on where people are listening to this, I think coastal area and I don't know if you've been to the US before but like so coastal areas. If you think of like east coast and then west coast a lot of people really into the biohacking longevity that like that in the uk Is this a, are you, you like an uncommon pair that are into this or is this common?

We're coming in 10 days to, to the biohacking world so we, we can fully let you know. But I, I, I think your practices align.

Okay, but I think it's newer here. It, it's, it's not as a developed scene here and I think like you were saying, people probably here use the excuse a little bit more of the weather isn't so good so we can't get out in the morning.

They use that their more you're saying they use that there.

Okay, but the east coast probably use it as well.

Yeah, depends on the area. I mean in California no one like east the coast of California. Yeah but, but people and I'm bringing this up because people say this to me all the time. Well I live in a snow area.

Excuse a little bit more of the weather isn't so good so we can't get out in the morning.

They use that there more. You're saying they use that there.

Okay, but the east coast probably use it as well.

Yeah, depends on the area. I mean in California no one likes east the coast of California. Yeah but, but people and I'm bringing this up because people say this to me all the time. Well I live in a snow area or I live, I'm not listeners in Canada. It sounds to me though like you don't if there was snow you'd be outside. Like you're just committed.

We've just been to Finland and it was minus 20 and we were outside all day. Wow. We swam in the Arctic.

So you know you're next level. Talk to me about community and connection because I think I live I'm going to get listeners in Canada. Canada. It sounds to me though like you don't. If there was snow, you'd be outside. Like you're just committed.

We've just been to Finland and it was minus 20 and we were outside all day.

Wow.

Swam in the Arctic.

So you know, you're next level. Talk to me about community and connection because I think, I don't know if you realize this or not, but this was huge too. And I think a lot of women in midlife, they just don't have those real friendships anymore. And you two formed that. How important do you think that was in your healing and what advice do you have to somebody listening that maybe doesn't have that right now?

It's immense. I mean she's now one of my best friends. I absolutely love her. Our kids love each other. It's. We, we are so great.

I don't know if you realize this or not, but this was huge too. And I think a lot of women in midlife, they just don't have those real friendships anymore. And you two formed that. How important do you think that was in your healing and what advice do you have to somebody listening that maybe doesn't have that right now?

It immense. I mean she's now one of my best friends. I absolutely love her. Our kids love each other. We are so grateful and thankful every single day for that meeting and just making the first step and I think being open and vulnerable, which we have been very vulnerable with one another and that's how the conversation started. We were in not great times and probably feeling a little sad noticing one another was grateful and thankful every single day for that meeting and it just making the looking sad.

But I think you realize once you start speaking to people that everybody first the first step and I think and.

Being open for being open and vulnerable, which we have been very vulnerable with one another. And that's how the conversation started. We were in not great times and probably feeling a little sad noticing one.

Another was going through something. And I think then you can kind of use that to bond over that common. It doesn't have to be the same issue. It doesn't have to both be a divorce. It may be you've lost a parent or the child has left home or your husband's sick or it can be anything. But I think think by the time you get into your 30s, 40s and beyond, things have happened to you. And I think once you realize that, that it's happening to everybody, you can feel free to be a little bit more vulnerable.

We'll come at everything with kindness and vulnerability and looking sad But I think.

You realize once you start speaking to people that everybody's going through something. And I think then you can kind of use that to bond over that common. It doesn't have to be the same issue. It doesn't have to both be divorce. It may be you've lost a parent or the child has left home, your husband's sick, or it can be anything. But I think, I think you'll probably.

Meet some of the best people of your life, which is very exciting.

Yeah, I love that because I do think egos really pop up and women expect. Women think others are judging them so they want to look like they have it all together. Right. So people want to have the answers or be the know it aller. And when you are truly sharing from a place of human compassion and what you're actually navigating, I think that's when people really connect, connecting.

By the time you get into your 30s, 40s and beyond, things have happened to you. And I think once you realize that, that it's happening to everybody, you can feel free to be a little bit more vulnerable.

We'll come at everything with kindness and, and vulnerability. And I think you'll probably meet some of the best people of your life, which is very exciting.

Yeah, I love. And I'll see this a lot, just even on social media, for example. So let's just take your scrolling Instagram and somebody appears to have this perfect life and perfect body and perfect everything. Everything. A lot of people, they don't like them instantly. They're like, I don't like this person. You'll see hate in the comments and the person might not have done anything wrong other than they just appear perfect. Right. So but when somebody shares a real story of something, they're not that because I do think egos really pop up and women expect. Women think others are judging them so they want to look like they have it all together. Right. So people want to have the answers or be the know it all or. And when you are truly sharing from a place of human compassion and what you're actually navigating, I think that that's when people really connect and navigating or something that's hurting them or pain. People see them more human and connect with them. So what advice do you have for somebody that they're, they're listening to you and they're like, well, I wish I had a friend like that, or how do I even start that conversation? Or do you have any advice to give somebody that maybe doesn't feel they have those Connections right now, I think.

It'S be brave to be vulnerable and know that everybody, every single person, even the perfect people that people look.

And I'll see this a lot, just even on social media, for example. So let's just take your scrolling Instagram.

And somebody perfect life, have something. And if you are the one that is brave enough to say, but he.

Appears to have this perfect life and perfect body and perfect everything. A lot of people, they don't like.

I'm actually having a bit of a tough time right now, then that will just. You are gifting them instantly.

They're like, I don't like this person. You'll see hate in the comments and the person might not have done anything wrong other than they just appear perfect. Right. So. But when somebody shares a real story.

Of something, they're other people the opportunity to be vulnerable. So look at it as you giving other people a gift.

Did you worry about sounding like you are a burden or. And do you have a way of. How do you talk or it doesn't feel like you're, you know, we all know those people that you want to avoid because it's like their whole life's a problem. Right? So how do you. What's, what's the line there?

I mean, there's an awful lot of positivity in our life. We've both got amazing children that we're so proud of and, and we lead.

Even in the navigating or something that's hurting them or pain. People see them more human and connect with them. So what advice do you have for somebody that they're, they're listening to you and they're like, well, I wish I had a friend like that, or how do I even start that conversation? Or do you have any adv to give somebody that maybe doesn't feel they have those connections right now?

I think it's be brave to be vulnerable.

Darkest times, we are very fortunate. We're, you know, optimistic. We're both very glass half full, so that, that helps. But you know, we have great lives. We've got great children. We just were going through a tough point within our lives. But you know, divorce is incredibly hard. Splitting up a family is incredibly hard. But no, we, we had an awful.

Lot of fun and know that everybody, every single person, even the perfect, perfect.

People that feel like they've got a.

Perfect life have something. And if you are the one that is brave enough to say I'm actually having a bit of a tough time right now, then that will just. You are gifting other people the opportunity to be vulnerable. So look at it as you giving.

Other people in there, actually. So, I mean, we're both quite sarcastic and yeah, the, the conversations that we have had in the sauna will never be released because they shouldn't be.

But it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom and it also doesn't have to be all like fake positiv. No, it's just real life.

Real. Just be real.

And some of it is a male gift.

Did you worry about sounding like you are a burden or. And do you have a way of. How do you talk or it doesn't feel like you're. You know, we all know those people that you want to avoid because it's like their whole life's a problem and.

Funny and ridiculous and some of it is horrible, but you just lean into the realness of it.

Go ahead. I also think when you get to our past 40, there is a, you know, BS like you just don't care about.

Right. So how do you work? What's the line there.

There. I mean, because there's an awful lot of positivity in our life. We've both got amazing children that we're so proud of and, and we lead even in the.

All the kind of, oh, wait till after 50. You really don't. And you're on your NFG card.

Well, there you go. Exactly. So there's. There's that, there's that that comes out. So I wish I felt like that Maybe in my 30s. I probably didn't. I. I struggled.

So would you like. I'm gonna, I'll. I'll go to another level and say, just talk to people like, you don't. You don't know. Not everybody's gonna be open, warm all and wanting to chat back. But, but just talking and smiling and asking. I, you know, when I, I moved.

Darkest times, we are very fortunate. We're, you know, optimistic. We're both very glass half full, so that, that helps. But you know, we have great lives. We've got great children. We just were going through a tough point within our lives. But you know, divorce is incredibly hard. Splitting up a family is incredibly hard. But no, we, we had an awful.

Lot of fun to Arizona from San Diego and I didn't know anybody here and I went into a Facebook group and I just said, hey, I'm I years old. You know, I just said my age and what I'm interested in and would love to find girls that want to hike and you kind of gotta like, you just Gotta put yourself out there. And it might sound scary, but it's kind of like dating, you know, you just gotta. You gotta do a little trial and you find your. Your tribe and you also in there, actually.

So, I mean, we're both quite sarcastic and yeah, the conversations that we have had in the sauna will never be released because they shouldn't be.

But it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom and it also doesn't have to be all like, like fake positivity. No, it's just real life.

Real. Just be real.

And some of it is amazing.

Something I want to talk about headspace for a minute here because you've mentioned headspace a few times, like getting in the right headspace. And it sounds like you do that from sleeping well and detoxing and connecting. But also, you know, your podcast is. Is a form of therapy in a way. I think mine is. And gosh, I'm like, it's like my therapy session on my podcast all the time. Can you speak a little bit more into headspace and what. Because you've mentioned that word a few times?

Yeah. I think for us, the podcast was really a perfect purpose. And I think, you know, it's perhaps hard sometimes to know what your purpose is, particularly maybe if zing and funny and ridiculous and some of it is horrible, but you just lean into the realness of it. Go ahead.

I also think when you get to our past 40, there is a.

You don't care.

No BS, like you just don't care.

About children have left home and all of that kind of thing. And I think having purpose gave all.

The kind of, oh, wait till after 50, you really don't care and you're on your NFG card.

Well, there you go.

US positivity gave us optimism. And I think then that and gratitude. And we were so grateful that we'd found each other. And I think those kind of emotions, they're so high vibrational and they just perpetuate more high vibrational things and you stop, you lose the fear. So the fear starts to go and all this amazing, like, energy comes in. And I think that's what the podcast has done for us. It's shown.

Exactly. So this, there's that, there's that that comes out. So I wish I felt like that Maybe in my 30s. I probably didn't. I. I struggled.

So would you tell. Like, I'm gonna, I'll. I'll go to another level and say, just talk to people like, you don't. You don't know not everybody's gonna be open warm arm wanting to chat back but, but just talking and smiling and asking. I, you know, when I, I moved.

Us that anything is possible. We, we sometimes say to each other, well they've done it. What. What is stopping us doing it? And it's so true. Anybody can do anything if you try.

And I think you then you connect.

The energy level that we're in right now. We go to quite a few events and we've got some amazing friends within the industry now that we to Arizona.

From San Diego and I didn't know anybody here and I went into a Facebook group and I just said hey, I, I'm 53 years old. You know, I just said my age and what I'm interested in and would love to find girls that want to hike. And you kind of got to like, you just got to put yourself out there. And it might sound scary, but it's kind of like dating. You know, you just got to, you got to do a little trial and you find your, your trip tribe and.

You also, you know, we've really connected to and your energy draws other people in. So be open minded.

I think I love that And I tell us just a kind of a few of your thoughts on longevity because I think people view longevity stuff or biohacking or age harmonizing or optimizing all the words we threw out there, sometimes they're either like all in or they feel it's something. I want to talk about headspace for a minute here because you've mentioned headspace a few times like getting in the right headspace. And it sounds like you do that from sleeping well and detoxing and connecting, but it's kind of out there. Or like what is your just general feedback around that and what do you think is actually important versus like what's super gimmicky?

Well, I think there's a very funny name also.

You know, your podcast is, is a form of therapy in a way. I think mine is. And gosh, I'm like, it's like my therapy session on my podcast all the time. Can you speak a little bit more into headspace and would what did going.

Around on Instagram at the moment? On one side it's Brian Johnson wired up to loads of things and on the other side it's an Italian man who's been smoking and drinking all his life.

I haven't seen that life.

And it's like he's. His age is predicted to be way longer Johnson. So I think in that particular image is the Key point, and that is balance.

You've mentioned that word a few times.

Yeah. I think for us the podcast was really a purpose. And I think, you know, it's perhaps hard sometimes to know what your purpose is, particularly maybe if children have left home and all of that kind of thing. And I think having purpose gave us positivity, gave us optimism, and I think then that.

And, and Grant, you got to send me that image that's like that. I gotta see that.

But we talk about, we are actually talking about this more and more because when you first start by hacking, you start with incremental changes, adding on adding. And then you get to a point you think, am I putting more stress on my.

Yes, thank you. Yes.

Because I'm, I'm tracking everything with trackers and all this. Am I putting too much pressure on myself? And therefore I'm causing more oxidative stress and I'm actually putting myself under unnecessary pressure. So I'm probably aging than I, I would be attitude.

And we were so grateful that we'd found each other. And I think those kind of emotions, they're so high vibrational and they just perpetuate more high vibrational things and you stop, you lose the fear. So the fear starts to go and all this amazing, like energy comes in. And I think that's what the podcast has done for us.

It showed, not to mention all the EMF from all of our trackers and all the silic, like all these things. Next thing you know, I'm sleeping with all these wires. I'm like, what's happening?

Yeah, exactly. But, you know, all the things that are natural are where we kind of start with. So the, you know, sleep is so.

Important and grounding, sunlight, movement, good nutrition.

Anything is possible. We, we sometimes say to each other, well, they've done it. What. What is stopping us doing? And it's so true. Anybody can do anything if you try.

And I think you then you connect to more and more people. I mean, the energy level that we're in right now, we, we go to quite a few events and we've got some amazing friends within the industry now that we, yeah, exercise. Start with this. Add on some. We do think there's quite a lot of extreme biohacking going on. Not for us. It becomes like.