Juggling Doubt and Uncertainty with the Midlife Crisis Doctor Dr. Julie Hannan

Today I'm here with the midlife crisis doctor who I found on TikTok. I love her videos. They're so informative. What I love about her is she was already in the psychology space, like she was already helping people. And then she herself walked through what we're going to talk about today, a midlife crisis, and she had to figure out sort of what that was and how to navigate it. And now she serves others doing this, not just patients, clients, but she really does a great job online and getting other women to feel seen, heard and understood in this topic and helping them there. So thank you so much for being here today.

Oh, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for asking.

Yeah, so I guess take us back. What type. What were you doing before the midlife crisis? Like what. Who were you helping? What were you. What were you doing?

Okay. So. So I'm a counseling psychologist. So psychology is the second career for me. So the first part of my career was in financial services. But I was always. I've always been curious about why people do the things that they. And for me, the only way to kind of find the answers to that was to train as a psychologist. So I became a doctor at 45, so that's seven, eight years ago now, and opened up a practice and started seeing really, I suppose, kind of midlife professionals, so private practice. And then I took on seven or eight different psychologists to work with me, but actually preferred working on my own. So I was looking at occupational stress, but burnout, marital breakdown, relationship breakdown, that sort of thing. So I've always, always enjoyed working with people sort of 30 to 60.

Okay.

So only. Only adults, really. So I've never worked with children, so. And then I think sort of four or five years ago, I just started being really interested in midlife and making changes and found that there just wasn't a lot of information out there. And a lot of it came. Yeah, A lot of it came from, like, Jungian psychology. Car. So. But that was quite a few years ago when he wrote a lot of his work. So. And I was. I got very frustrated with some of the books out there that this is a great opportunity. It's a midlife transformation. And yet it is, don't get me wrong, it can be, but it's flipping hard work. Yeah. So to make those transformations, and I just felt that it was glossed over too much. Yeah. So. So I began to lose a bit of interest in my work, which was quite, quite a shock to me, seen as I'd spent sort of 10 years training and built the practice. And then both my kids left home within about four months of each other during COVID And it just kind of really made me stop and think. And I'd been wanting to write the book for quite a few years and just. Just hadn't got the time to do it. And I thought, right now, I love.

What you just shared and how you explained it, because I think I totally get what you mean about the glossing over. And I think I was guilty of that too. So I'm 51 right now at the time of this recording, but I will say Most of my 40s I spent helping women with fat loss, weight loss, being strong. And I even would say we're not too old, we're not too late. And it's, you know, aging can be amazing. And I did believe that. But there's something that happens, like, truly in the mid. Like, I'll tell you, like at 50, I had a big wake up call around things. Like, it's. It's different. And it's not just different hormonally and what's going on in our bodies, it's different. Like what's going on in our lives. Like our kids growing up, our friends looking different, our friends getting diseases that they didn't have before. Like, there's a lot of stuff. And even. Even looking at financial changes and relationship changes. So I totally hear what you're saying about it being glossed over and not talking about the actual, like, what's actually going on and being able to normalize and really work through that with people.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me, I. It was the kids. Leaving home wasn't ideal. What really kind of was a profound loss for me was the lack, the losing interest in some of my work and wanting to reach a wider audience and actually specialize in some areas. So. Which I did with burnout. And then I kind of moved on to midlife because it all felt so relevant to me and there's so much overlap. To be honest, I totally, yeah, I.

Totally relate to that. So what, what do you want women to know, first of all, that are now. Because a lot of women don't even know what's going on. They're just thinking, why do I feel this way? Or what's. What do you want them to know?

Okay. So it's really hard to understand from the outside a midlife crisis. Now, a midlife crisis is a crisis of identity. It's almost kind of a threat to our very existence. So it comes from the philosophy of existentialism so, so. So an identity crisis can happen at any age, but it. It is particularly prevalent in midlifers. So it's all. It feels like the life we're currently living doesn't fit. There's like a misfit kind of going on somewhere and it's really hard to pinpoint when it happened, what actually happened, what aspect of your life has been impacted in such a way that it becomes. It just doesn't feel like you anymore.

Sure.

So. And what triggers an identity crisis is a profound loss. And I think that's been. That was one of my tiktoks that kind of explained that was. Was very, very popular because it had never been. Kind of people couldn't pinpoint it. Now a lot of people think that a profound loss. So this is important for women, might be the death of somebody or a relationship breakdown, but that. And it will be for some people. But a profound loss can be more subtle than that. So profound loss is something that you've dedicated time, energy, love, or attention to and it is now no longer part of your identity. So that might be your work, which. It was me, you know, losing interest in. In aspects of my work because work is a big part of my identity. That. That was.

I feel that way about fitness.

Yes.

With you, like, that was a big part. It's not my. It's not my big interest anymore.

Yes, absolutely. So. But it might also be kind of loss of status or loss of role. So when the. The empty nesters. There's been a lot response on Tick Tock from empty nesters because that if. If that's been a great big part of your identity, being a parent and the kids go. And you haven't got anything to fill that gap. That's a really, really challenging time for a lot of men and women, you know, so. And I think a lot of people think that it is just women. And a lot of the people that responded have been women, but it really impacts men.

And then you've got other losses, not only like the role of maybe that your relationship has broken down, but that's loss of looks.

I was just gonna say. I'm hoping you're gonna bring that up. I think that's a bigger. Like, I'll tell you, living in Southern California with my friend group, that's a big thing. It is a big. Especially women that worked for years to look a certain way, to be a certain way.

Absolutely.

And then it's like you can only, like, you could do that in your 30s. You can do that in your 40s, then. Then that aging is going to happen. So there is a big loss of that, like in my. All my. My friends. I'll talk about it.

Oh, absolutely. And I think somebody. People have said to me that it's almost like the pretty privilege. Yes. That's gone away. Yeah, yeah. And men pause, obviously can really impact that as well. Especially if your looks have been a big part, you know, identity and your life really. So. Yeah, so it isn just the like death of a parent. You know, it isn't the kind of almost obvious losses, you know, but it's those subtle ones that people just don't really appreciate have such a profound impact on their identity. But it's all related to identity. So let. So when I talk about menopause, it's not an area that I talk a lot about because I wanted the identity crisis to be more inclusive. But the thing is, with menopause, it's not necessarily. And this is quite a subtle kind of difference that I've had to work in my own head because I haven't found any writing out there about it. But it's not necessarily the loss of hormones that causes.

A midlife crisis, but it is the experience that, that loss of hormones and the impact that it has on you that can cause a midlife crisis. So let me give you an example. If your libido has been, you know, a big part of your identity and your sexuality and the, the. The loss of hormones means that that is no longer a.

Can be a profound loss. Now it won't be for everybody, and not everybody who has, who goes through the menopause is going to have a midlife crisis. But again, you can take in that loss of looks. If you're impacted by the menopause, it impacts your looks and that's been a big part of your identity, then that could plunge you into midlife crisis.

So, okay, so what are we even beginning to do about. Because I would you suggest the first step is sort of figuring out which one of those things are the I'm going into struct course right away. Like my mind going to. Okay, which one of those things apply to me and which one? Like, where do I see this coming up? Is that what you would sort of advise somebody to do first? So like to have a hard look at which things it is?

Yeah, absolutely. It's about identifying, you know, the source of this. And that's what I, I couldn't find in any of the books that I was reading. So they were, they were too kind of hybrid and I was like, okay, give me some exercises, let me do some thinking, let me try and work out what the hell is kind of going on here. So, and what happens is it's about kind of reevaluating your life. So we make a lot of decision in our early life at adolescence, you know, so we choose career very often at like 16, then you go on to college, university, you know, so you make those life choices before you really had experience of being in the world, knowing how the world works, knowing about relationships and, and the brain isn't fully formed until you're 25, but people follow their career paths all the way through and then I suppose they kind of get to 40, 50 and they're like, well this isn't bringing me the joy that it used to. And you think, well that's because you made that decision 30 years ago.

Yeah.

Or you know, so you choose values. And so like values, for example, I've just done a tick tock on values. Like values like start at the age of 10 and they're locked in at age 21. But how many of us in our 40s and 50s actually reevaluate what's important to me now? And if your behavior doesn't correspond with your up to date current values, then you can have a midlife crisis. You're going to be unhappy. Wow. Yeah. So and so at 21 our values might be big car, good looking part, you know, all this sort of stuff.

You go for all those things and then you years later you're like wait a minute, this I haven't even reevaluated. I just know I'm not happy.

Absolutely. It might be the big house, it might be about getting as much money in the bank as possible when you're 21, but actually in your 50s it might be living sustain, know comfortably and actually maybe freedom, which is a big existential angst, you know, having freedom is a massive part of how you want to live your life, you know, that the, you know, the opportunity to explore.

You know, I think I'd add to that the whole, the other part of that is the not enough. So like maybe somebody, they for 30 years were chasing something specific they've never obtained. So there's a whole nother layer there of like I always thought I wanted to get married or I always thought I wanted to if they didn't hit those things. Reevaluating now as a middle aged life crisis I would imagine.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Because I mean you could, you could in your early like 20 cent. I want to Settle down, have kids, that sort of stuff. And actually you get to be, you know, a parent and just think, well, this isn't always cracked up to be, what about me? I'm losing myself here. And so. And then you, you have to reevaluate and start. Start again. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's really tough. It's. It's really tough. But from the outside, it looks like you, you're winning at life.

Yeah, of course.

Because so many midlifers are successful, so then they don't get the empathy that they kind of deserve from other people because, like, oh, it must be awful for you living in that big house. Do you know that sort of stuff and actually. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm thinking just to friends, I mean, I'm thinking in my own world, friends, clients, all the things I'm thinking. I'm seeing all this happening because I have some friends that never got married, never had kids, and they felt they had so much time and now it's, whoa, I'm in my 50s. That's probably not going to happen. Or. And then the look, I see all of this, the careers, the looks, the whole thing. So what? So you recognize it, obviously. And then it's important to find others talking about it. What do you do about it? How do we fix it? What's the answer?

Yeah, well, we need to look at like, values. So values need to be reassessed. And any limiting beliefs that you are holding about yourself that you don't think might be possible, they need to be questioned as well.

When we're stuck in this kind of, in between these identities.

It'S really important to look at any attachments that are not supporting your personal growth. So that might be attachments to people or to, to work or to objects, you know, like maybe the big house and all the expenses of that gives you the status, but actually you want to be doing something else and you can't let go of the job because you've got mortgages, you know, this sort of stuff. It's kind of like, you know, it's.

And the looks too, like we've mentioned, too, like getting, Being okay with, like, okay, I am more than the. Or I'm more than that. Yes. Whatever it is.

Absolutely. And I suppose it's developing other areas of your life that can strengthen that self esteem when that aspect of your identity is no longer attainable. Or actually, or being, you know, compassionate with the self and being able to say, well, actually I look good for who I am and where I am in My now in my life and my age. So.

And I think, I personally think that's important even for people that go down the plastic surgery route or fixing because even if you're going to do that, you're not going to ever look 20 again. You're not going to be 30 again. So it's like you might look great for 50 or great for 60, but we're not fooling anyone. So I think even if we're doing that, you still have to learn how to navigate that. We're more than just that.

Absolutely. I mean it is lost in every sense really. So it is about developing other areas of your life that have meaning and purpose for you, but it's actually trying to work out what that is. So I always say to people, you know, don't do anything until you've really kind of explored how you got yourself here. So what scripts, what life scripts were you following? You know, that, that other people might have set for you like in early life again, those adolescents, those choices. Very often we've got the blueprint of our parents relationship which we made just of just slapped on, copied through our 20s and 30s. Is that working for you now?

You know, are you literally bring people back to re examine how they got here? Okay, yeah. This is important because this is a distinction that I think that some therapists don't do that. Like some are really.

Yeah, yeah.

This is move forward.

No, this has got to be all, this is all early stuff. The early stuff's got to be checked out.

Share. Can you share why that's so important? Because I do think there's too much and I love personal development, but I think there's too much glossing over of that.

Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I mean certainly over here in the uk, you know that we, there's a lot of kind of therapy which is short term therapy. Change your thoughts, change your behaviors, you know, Bob's your uncle, you're away. Really, it, it just isn't that simple. I don't work like that. You know, I work more psychodynamically, more existentially. You know, we're looking at like the bigger picture, how we got to where we are today. So you have to look at the influences in your life and then start to kind of question, well, do I actually agree with that anymore? You know, should. So if you've got par say that stayed together through thick and thin, but they might be unhappy, but their kind of value and beliefs are you stay together, you make the marriage work and you're doing that in Your own life, I suppose you have to kind of say, is this my belief or was this handed to me and how do I feel about it now? And actually, if. If one. If your partner hasn't kept up the contract of, like, fidelity or loyalty, whatever it might be, you know, it's about giving yourself permission to say, actually, that's not for me anymore. That might have worked in when I was 18, that's what I wanted for myself. But here I AM in my 40s, 50s, we've had kids together, and actually, he bores the life out of me.

Sure.

Yeah. It's time to move on. We've outgrown each other. Right. So. Or if you're going to stay with your partner when you've been together 20, 30 years, you know, it's about, how could you grow together? How can this be different? It's a great quote, actually, by Muhammad Ali. And he kind of said, says. And I'm going to probably misquote, but you get the sense that the man who lives his life at 50 the same way he did at 30, has wasted 20 years. Whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And I think that's it. There's so much growth. We learn so much, you know, within from the ages of 20 to 50. And it's about applying that new learning to how you want to live your life.

I just had an epiphany as you were saying this. So before we started recording today, I went on a hike. And it's a hike I've been doing for 20 years. I love this place. But while I was on my hike today, I had this thought of, oh, my gosh, 20 years ago, I used to sprint on this hike. And I was like, and I can't do that now because it hurts. And I was having this, like, this feeling, sorrowful for it. But then you just said this. And I had just kind of put it together. That year, 20 years ago, when I go for the hike, it was all about, how fast can I run? And dah, dah, dah. And I wasn't very present to the hike. I was just, you know, it was the get in there, sprint for 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then today, actually, I took my time. It was like two and a half hours. I was super present. I had a lot of creative thoughts. And so it's just when, as you said that, I just had this realization that. Yeah. When to that quote, if I just live in a 30 years, you know, 20 years ago, I'm thinking, what's wrong with me? Why can't I sprint like that versus like looking at the present of wow, like I've evolved so much and I have the, the space to go do that for two and a half hours. And so I love that you just shared that. It just came together for me.

Good, good. And it's just different values, isn't it? Being present, being in the moment, experiencing nature, being in nature. At our age, you know, I'm sure only a little bit older than you, like, you know, you look fabulous. So. But, you know, our age, it's, it's, it's about kind of recognizing different things are appealing. So. So for a lot of people, it's about solitude. You know, I'm, I'm an introvert. I like to spend time on my own. I'm off to the coast in a couple of weeks time for a week on my own, just to do a bit of reading, do a bit writing, just walk on the beach. No, I just love it. I know it would horrify a lot of people. So. But I mean, that seems so relevant particularly for women, I think, these days. And the tick tocks that I've done on that, that solitude, you know, a lot of people have responded to. But, but what I did point out is that with solitude, it doesn't necessarily solve a midlife crisis because you're kind of extracting yourself out, out of the frame and nothing kind of gets resolved unless you start to, you know, work on self awareness, work on what's important to you now, what's holding me back from my own personal growth. So it can, it can pause and it can be nice, but you still have to come back. And also, solitude is different to loneliness because solitude is chosen, whereas loneliness tends to be a situation that you're in which can make you sad. So it's important to kind of differentiate between those. But also solitude can work really well if you have a network and community of people that you can go back to when you choose to.

So you mentioned a few times I heard you say the word solve. So my question is, do we. Is midlife crisis something we want to solve and overcome, or is it something we need to learn to live with and redefine?

Yeah, it's about redefining yourself kind of all the time really, because it is about identity and identities change. You know, people that go into retirement. So many people have an identity crisis because it's so hard to give up work for so many people because it's a big part of their identity. And then there's that great loss. But again, A lot of people think, well, it's retirement, you're so lucky, you don't have to work now. But it's, it's, it's a really, really difficult time. So I think this, you know, midlife would apply to 35 to 60, you know, and they say very often, you know, well, 40 to 60, but like a decade either side. So. And so you've got us, us midlife.

Right.

You know, the Gen X and then.

Then somehow the 50s really feel it to me, even though I know we might not live to 110, but it's just, it just somehow that's. I didn't even consider myself as like midlife until the 50s.

Yeah, there's something about that big fire, I think, which is a bit shocking for people. So. But yeah, it is about working and being aware and living your life according to your values and beliefs that are present and current for you. And then it's about choice points. So every decision that's kind of made, it's about making sure that your behavior corresponds with your updated values and beliefs, that it's taking you towards the goal. And I think what a lot of people do that, you know, they become very aware of their mortality in the 50s and they can make shorter kind of decisions because like when we're younger we might say, well, I'm going to go to college or I'm going to train to be an accountant or whatever, or a fitness, you know, it's going to take those years and then we get to 50 and we think, oh, I've got time for that. Like what I'll do is a six week course on this, that and the other. But you've potentially got another 30 years, so. So it's kind of. Don't shortchange yourself if you.

More than 30 years. Come on.

Absolutely.

I think there's something wrong with me that I don't actually, I still, I still feel really good for 50. So I still, I still feel like there's 50 years ahead of me, you know, and, and then there's a problem with that too, probably, because I probably need to be more realistic because I think, I just don't think that I. But I see that too. I see people thinking they have more time than they have. Like I have friends in their 50s still thinking they're gonna have a baby and it's like, come on. Oh, yeah, well, yeah, there's a denial piece that happens too.

Yeah, yeah. We've got to be realistic about those sort of things. But I think, I think the perspective that you're taking is a longer term perspective. So that in itself can healthy so long as it's realistic, you know, so you, you've got time, you know, you, you could have a career change. I suppose it's like you changing your podcast focus, you know, and, and me concentrating more on midlife. And I might find in 10 years time I want to go again at something new. You might retiree, you know, retiree phase. So yeah, it's about moving with the times and being realistic and not short changing yourself really.

Do you think that the Internet has made this harder for people? And let me, let me say what I mean by that. So like, I know one of the conversations I had about a heavy amount of fitness and going into a different direction with things is I'm like, but I built a brand around this, but I'm known for this. But this is online where I think 20 years ago that would have been easy because that was not the case there. We didn't have the Internet, we didn't have social media. So I'm wondering if that also contributes or, and also because you're seeing what other people are doing. So we get into comparison mode. So you see other people thriving. Like, like, like think about it. Before the Internet, before social media, we weren't really, we wouldn't right now be around a lot of 20 and 30 year old influencers. We would be around our own friends, our own colleagues, our own. So I think this heavy flood of social media, it's a, throws back in our face the younger that whatever it is. Just.

Absolutely, I, I think, I think, I think you're absolutely right. I think it can be really difficult to not want to kind of keep up, you know, and to go with what's selling, you know, and what the demand is. But what I go through kind of in the book is about how we have to come out of our head and the intellectualizing. You know, for example, in the psychology world at the moment, there's trauma is the way to go. Everybody's talking about trauma and eating disorders and you know, and either you've got a genuine interest in that or not, because I could go down the trauma route, but I'm not as interested in trauma as I am as midlife.

Yeah.

And, and I don't think my energy would take me there down the trauma route. It would, you know, I start to lose enthusiasm and have that kind of malaise about it because it's not what I truly want to. So, so there's a lot of bodywork in the book because it makes intellectual sense to go down the trauma route because that's what people are asking for or the young influencers. That's where the market is. That's where the people are. That's where the interest is. But I think it's, you know, we spend the first half of life trying to fit into this world, and the second half of life is about fitting, is finding a world that fits around.

Oh, that is good.

That's a good.

I love what you just said there.

Yeah.

Finding a world that fits around us.

Yeah.

Versus we have to be.

Yeah, we have to be the priority and we have to form that around us.

I absolutely love that. Yeah. That is brilliant. I love what you're doing. And I wish, you know, it's been interesting sort of since I pivoted this topic and I'm focused on this, there's not as many people as one would think speaking into this. I mean, there really isn't. It's easy to find stuff on hormones. There's a lot of different opinions on that. And menopause, like that. That part. Part, we got that. But there's really. There really is a lack around this. And I. And I just. I'm so glad you're speaking into this and really representing in this area because it's so needed, because everything else is about, like, fixing, you know, versus, like, embracing, like, obviously, like, I'm all for cosmetic surgery and all the things like that, you know, but there is such a focus on, like, let's look 30, let's be 30. And. And this is so needed.

I just even feel understood talking to you like that. This is some of the conversations I've had in friend circles. You're seeing this everywhere.

Yeah, well, this is about coming from the inside out, you know, and so much of what you're talking about is that external view. Yes, But. But the midlife journey is inward. It's not outward. So. And also, people think it's going to be really expensive to have a midlife crisis. But you have everything you already need.

Yes, yes.

You know, it's. It's. It's the traveling, the navigating, the new path, you know, and not. Not about expenditure.

So how has this helped you? Because I'm. Because I. I find that we tend to help others with what we. What we want help with. Right. So have you seen a big change in your life since you started pivoting and focusing on this?

Well, the hardest thing for me has been to. Because I. I'm like, sort of taking a year sabbatical so I'm just kind of seeing existing clients that have been with me for a few. Any more. So. And because work, I've always worked. So I think the hardest thing, I mean, you've got to walk the walk. You can't just talk the talk, you know. So the hardest thing has been giving myself permission to kind of stop the money making part of my work and explore and take time without bringing in much of an income while I'm writing a book that I don't know whether it's going to sell or not. But I've. I just need to do this. I just need to do it for me. Because. Because it came from a curiosity of like, what the heck is happening to me?

Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I, I think your book is going to sell extremely well. So help. Tell us about your book a little bit.

Like, what.

Why does everyone need this? Tell us about it. When is it out? Tell us all the things.

Okay, so. So I'm working on it at the moment actually, and I've only been on Tick Tock since August. And you know, I didn't know. I was determined to write the book anyway. It's called A Guide to Midlife, so I was determined to write it. I didn't know if there was a market out there or not. And then my first TikTok went viral and my son does all my social media and then he was like, mom, mom, mom, you got to write the book. You got. I'm like, bread, I'm writing the book I'm writing. I can't go any faster, you know, so it comes in like three parts. And I, I suppose a rite of passage tends to be three parts. So you have the first part, which is like exploration of all the life scripts is kind of how the hell did I get here? Okay. And it's, it's about taking responsibility that you got. You got yourself to a place you're not very happy with, so you can't blame anybody else. And actually you can't move forward until you take responsibility for getting yourself to this annoying place in the first. In. In the first place. So then, so once you've done all the kind of. You've looked at your past, you looked at the influences you looked at, you know, how you grew, how you developed, how you made these choices, then you into part two, which is called liminality. So this is like a floating. So you're letting go. Well, that old identity no longer fits. But you don't know what your new identity looks like. And That's a really scary place and that's where people make very, very quick, impulsive decisions which blow up their lives because they, they hate. And of course a lot of my clients are very entrepreneurial and fast moving and you know, they want answers and they can do, do, do all day, but this is about being, this is about stopping and, and almost like being suspended in time kind of thinking and not knowing what the forward journey looks like there.

Makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. It's really tough though, and it's really anxiety provoking. So I, I go through sort of techniques as well to try and keep your anxiety at bay. So. And there's lots of questions and lots of questionnaires and things to think about. And within part two, because that's where a lot of the work is done. But still no movement, no behav change at that point. And then part three is this kind of active experimentation. So you take what you've learned, you know, the old stuff, you kind of have an interest and you have an idea of what you, what you might be interested in. And then the final part is actually to experiment with that in a gentle sort of way and actually really take the cues from the body. Because a big thing in psychotherapy is that the body keeps the score. So the body is way ahead of the mind. So if you're trying to do something new and you're having to force yourself to do, might make intellectual cognitive sense to do these things. Because it might be a variation on the theme, it might be a little bit of a career change, let's say, let's go down this route. But if the body doesn't want to get up in the morning or go to those meetings or it's kind of lagging behind or you can hear yourself tutting, oh, you know, this sort of stuff, the body's saying, look, we're not up for that.

I think that sounds like that applies to what we're leaving behind too. I will speak. That is exactly what comes up with me around for fitness.

Oh yes.

Every time. Well, I, you know, that's the business I had for years and I've pivoted it slightly over the years, but you know, I started in fitness and every time my community or anyone says I want more fitness from you, it's, I get this like, yes, logically I could make more money there, I could, but I get that body reaction like I'm complete, I'm complete, I've moved on, done.

Yeah.

And I have all that stuff out there, but I don't, I Don't have this urge to go create more of that.

No, it's like a deadening. I liken it to an internal deadening that you could do it, but it's like spewing up your guts.

Yeah. I don't want to. I'm just not. I'm not there anymore.

Yeah. So you see the difference between the logical sense and the body.

Say I can feel it. I feel it.

No energy.

Yep. I have this argument with my husband continually because. Let's keep doing. I don't know how to explain it. But you've explained it for now. I'm going to play this for him.

Him.

I'm like, that's. It's that feeling. I just. You just explained it.

Well, the Jungian psychologists call. Call it libido in the sense of vitality, energy. Can you. Can you. Can you, you know, get excited about this or. Or not?

Yeah.

And I find. And I spent a lot of time doing some online burnouts and I was interested in burnout and I was working with a lot of doctors in the NHS and kind of working with their burnout. And then I just saw, I'm done. Yeah, I'm done. That's that. And, you know, they wanted me to do more and could you do a webinar on this? And I think, nah, I can't get the energy up around it. I've got to move on and I've got to, you know, get this book written, get this done for me, you know. And it just so happens there's interest out there. So that's been a nice surprise.

Yeah, no, there's a lot of interest out there. So everyone go and find her book. I'm going to link it up, how to pre order. When we air this, we'll have all the links and all the things. I'll be one of the first people to grab the book. I'm excited to read it. Thank you so much for today. This was so helpful and I love the work you're doing. Thank you.

It's been lovely. Thank you so much. It's been really good fun.