Advancing the Fifth Industrial Revolution, Horasis India Meeting 2021

Right, we're live now. So should we just start while we wait for Atul? We have an order and we can— Yeah, since we're recording now.

Thank you all. Thank you everyone for coming tonight. And as we discuss the Fifth Industrial Revolution, my name is Andrew McGregor, and we're waiting for our official chair to join us, but In the interim, I think something that might be useful is if we all define what the Fifth Industrial Revolution actually is, because something I was noting in studying for this panel is that all the previous industrial revolutions have revolved around a specific technology, be it the steam engine, or in the Fourth Industrial Revolution, robotics, blockchain, IoT, things like that. But in terms of the Fifth Industrial Revolution, the goal seems to be a moral and policy fusion with the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and also like the human-centered design. And kind of a question within that is, are these technologies intrinsically human-designed in their profitability, or is that a decision we can now make with this break with COVID also the fact that many of these technologies don't have the cost that was normally associated with producing a steam engine and things like that? Um, so Yeah, let's get going on that front. Gopi, would you like to begin with your robotics?

Sorry, Andrew, thanks a lot. I don't know about my robotics, but interestingly you said the word profitability. So I mean, at Green Robotics and internally and personally myself as well, we feel that we should no more look at it as an industrial revolution because industrial revolution always looked at driven by 1% of the people and 99% just followed it. So we started saying that let's call it an inclusive revolution, right? Let's take the solutions from a very inclusive perspective where people, purpose, and profit can thrive together. So not look at it as an independent silo where people are independent, profit is independent, and purpose is independent, and trying to find the juxtapose of each and another while you're driving the two or the one independently. So we come from a thought process that we should look at it henceforth is on how do we create a revolution where people, purpose, and profit can work hand in glove, right? So from that thought process, you know, we started thinking that, you know, when you say human-machine coexistence or human-machine collaboration, what does it mean? Does it mean— so we say when humans are creating robots, right, why is there a conversation everywhere in the world where we are afraid of robots replacing humans? That stems from the past, right? A machine, a mechanization replaced thousands of humans. Automation replaced thousands of humans because we never thought technology from a perspective. So that's where the fear stems out of. So we, you know, I mean, individually, I started thinking, you know, from a thought process that it's important to look at it from a coexistence and collaboration. If we created robots, let the robots assist us. If we created AI, let AI assist us to do a greater good towards how the humanity advances towards a more inclusive environment. Like interestingly, what Suket was talking about, like unifying and educating humans with the right intelligence in hand so that they use energy efficiently and intelligently. Because just because you have access to a resource does not mean you use it how you please, which is why we have millions of tons of food wastage globally while there is an X percent dying hungry on a day-in, day-out basis. So from that thought process, you know, I would just say, I mean, I would quote Jim Collins who said, "Greatness is not a function of circumstance. Greatness is a matter of conscious choice." So I think fifth industrial revolution should be from that thought process of conscious choice. What is that conscious choice? We as a technology companies, we as a humanitarian companies, we as a large organizations and government are taking a decision. Are we taking a decision because I think this is the future, or are we taking a decision thinking this is the future of the 100% humanity out there? So we say that, you know, once again, just reiterating the line that I personally believe that people, purpose, and profit has to be taught in an inclusive manner. So, and before we go deeper, I think, you know, while I think this is good, we can circle around. So, you know, I'll let Suket or Amit, whoever wants to jump in and share their thoughts.

Yeah, um, Suket, something that occurred to me is like, if you think of the development of nuclear power, right, that the United States used that as a weapon initially greatly affected the trajectory of that technology. So as you're looking at all these new things that the Fourth Industrial Revolution has created, how do you see Indian society and Indian economic thinking like applying them? And can there be a political and a policy will in that regard, or even in your own firm are you able to kind of modify the trajectory of these new technologies?

Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. I like the analogy to nuclear power and what happened and why it proliferated so much. I think you've really got to think about why is it that technology is being deployed. And if we look at in Indian context, it's really the small and medium businesses. Which are the lion's share of businesses in India, and that's where the technology needs to get down into and driven through. And I think large corporations, even without a will policy, can help their suppliers, the tier 1, tier 2 suppliers, cascade this technology down and provide them with platforms. I've often felt that one of the biggest things that's lacking in India is manufacturers doing after-sales support. If you think of Maruti Suzuki or Kent Auto, you know, they have the lion's share of the market. I don't think it would be very hard for anybody to destabilize them, primarily because they've got the best after-sales service support in the country. I mean, you can get a Maruti repaired, I don't know, 25, 30 kilometer, 50 kilometer radius, whereas if you wanted to get a Toyota repaired, it would be maybe 200 or 300 kilometer radius. And I think that's where the technology deployment can be large, because you can take your suppliers and you can not only have them as your component suppliers, but you can also put them as part of your after-sales service network and cascade that technology downwards for better inventory management, for better training, for a better customer experience. And that would really, really transform us going towards the use of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Cool.

Uh, yeah, Mr. Sharma, you're part of the Tata Group, which is, you know, one of India's most illustrious and famous firms. Do you see your company kind of merging into a fifth industrial revolution, or even have we seen a lot of the new technologies of the fourth industrial revolution, or do you see changes as more like an imposition as humanity evolves and that we just, we just kind of go along that big river, if that makes sense.

Yeah, thanks, Andrew. Well, um, you know, we at Tata have embraced, uh, digitalization in across multiple sectors that we operate. But specifically for my company that's into consulting, which is primarily the plant engineering, infrastructure, resources, metal, we are finding increasingly the demand obviously there for the digitalization of these assets. And the reason is why— I mean, it's not a fashion statement or a fad. Everybody wants to go digital. I think reasons are obvious. First, we're going through an immense transition across whether you talk about energy transition, whether you talk about circularity, green, the whole change in the energy mix, or even automotive going from the traditional, you know, oil-based to electric vehicles and hydrogen-based FCEVs. So we're going amidst a big transition. And in a transition, the lifecycle of products or your outputs are much shorter. So as you invest money, you need to get an ROI much faster. To do this, you have to make sure that your old assets and your new assets, whether you are in a steel plant, chemical plant, a metro infrastructure for transportation, or even for citizens across the globe, you need to marry the old with the new. So the first key reason for embracing digital is to— because digital acts as a glue, and that glue allows the two ecosystems, the old and the new, to coexist, ultimately serving the end users, which are citizens. Number one. Number two, as we see these cycles shrinking and new, uh, energy dynamics coming into play, This glue has to take decision based on tons of data that comes out. Now, industry, I think Industry 5 is being a nomenclature that is trying to give a more human touch. It still is Industry 4.0, which is cyber-physical systems, because the enormous amount of data humans cannot manage. And of course, you need AI, ML, and data trending. However, there are critical decisions that humans still have a much higher, you know, algorithmic power to take those decisions, and machines aren't yet there. So let's not give machines the credit early on. I think we humans still have the power to take decisions. And so if you marry these two, the ability to handle huge amount of data and the ability to make right decisions amongst most ambiguous situations, you are probably giving out something that's more resilient, sustainable, and future-proofing. Right. And this, this goes across all segments of value chains. Interestingly, the value chains are overlapping. So whether you talk about, you know, transportation with the Ubers and the Hyperloops, or you talk about the energy with chemical hydrogen coming into play, as well as the energy mix with solar and wind competing with, say, the hydro, nuclear, and the traditional coal-fired, you'll have to marry this together. So I think the convergence of data, end user, and the big transition and transformation across sectors where value chains are overlapping, digital provides a glue. And with Industry 4.0, that glue became realistic, affordable, and adoptable across globe at all levels. And it's not just with big firms, But as Suket said, it could be done at all levels of society and maybe more global as well. And I think to me personally, I feel 5.0 is more of a human touch. It's an extension. Fundamentally, I would imagine it's a subset of 4.0, but it's here to stay and we wouldn't be able to run, you know, our specific functions without embracing digitalization across all aspects of value chains. And with that, I think I would say that the way we are repositioning Ford Auto with 5.0, it's of course to remove some of the fears that came up because the pendulum swung towards one extreme and everybody thought, here is technology that's going to remove and replace humans, but actually it's about coexistence and extracting the best. So, you know, let me have Atul, kind of take the floor and we'll circle around back. Circle, over to you.

Oh no, thank you. Sorry, gentlemen. I mean, there was some technical glitch and I was getting in as attendee but not able to join as a panel member. Anyways, sorry about that. So let's continue. I mean, I don't want to disturb the flow that already there because the audience is also listening to it. Yeah, but some of the thing points that I picked up during the last 5 minutes or so that I've joined, I think the challenge in India would be while we were still looking at IR 4.0 and then now suddenly we see that 5.0 is coming or is around the corner. Yes, agreed, in India we'll be more than happy to see more human intervention because that's is where our strength lies. I mean, as Indians, we, we definitely consider to be more intellectual in that sense, and therefore I would think that Industry 5.0 will give that advantage to India. But then how do we— I mean, since you are experts from the field, my question to you would be, how do we really see this unfolding? Because We're still not there at Industrial Revolution 4.0, and suddenly we see a new version. So your views on this would be very helpful because many of us, you know, would like to see how this is going to really unfold. No doubt this is going to be a great tool for India to really, you know, get into the global league and the platform that we aim to be. But then I have this, I mean, concern, or rather I would say I'm looking for a way forward from experts like you. Anyone of you can possibly—

So, Akhil, I mean, I'll just kind of continue my thought with what you said. You know, as I mentioned, there is an energy transition or transition across various value chains, and we've also seen these post-COVID dynamics playing out. We've got a strong manufacturing economy, but so is our service sector, which dominates. And I think with post-COVID, a lot of digital connects will happen, both in service delivery and other aspects. And with these digital connects, there would be a natural advantage that the Indian economy would have in order to provide services and goods across the globe. But the digital glue must marry the old and the new and enable these transitions across various sectors. So I believe, as I said earlier, 5.0 is more, you know, putting humanification of the 4.0 rather than a new thing. And so we should— we shouldn't be too worried about these jargons, right? I mean, this is a way to categorize certain thoughts. What I believe is man-machine-data will come together and coexist. And there has been tremendous leapfrogging in India across various sectors, whether you talk about metals, where steel or power, you know, we're looking at calibrating power plants across India, looking at data coming out of that, integrating smart grids, smarter product categorization and production using smart systems, MIS, going to the next level. So there's been a lot of leapfrogging. At the same time, digital currency, for example, with COVID has taken a new dimension altogether. While crypto is a different subject, but in terms of digitalization, I think we are very much there. And as you marry the captive and non-captive— non-captive is the traditional dot-coms and the captive is your plants, your infrastructure, your factories— as both of them digitalize, including the work being done at smart cities across India, the work on transportation and integrating various aspects of consumer-based or citizen-based services, I think we will have a natural advantage of spearheading and going faster on this. COVID just accelerates the whole thing rather than impedes it. So I'm pretty positive about that. Suket, over to you.

Yeah, and Suket, I would like you to comment on the point that you mentioned. I think the fact that COVID pushed the government system to look for more digitalization or use of technology for various demands that we have across the country, do you think this is really going to help that big system to move much faster?

Yeah, I mean I was just going to add that. I agree with a lot of what Amit said, but I disagree with some of it. I think what Amit said works really well for large corporations and some of the larger, more mature medium corporations. But in India, that would account for 8-10% of the number of companies that exist. For 90% of the companies, the problems are very different. And my conjecture, what we're seeing with our supplier base, for example, as the GST network came in, in whatever it was, July 2017, companies who were not used to operating on transactions, on processes, on data, realize that actually, you know, even my financial transactions now need to be accurate on a weekly, monthly basis. Earlier it used to be a once-a-year basis, you do a cleaning, you get it going. Companies have realized that attendance systems, you know, a number of different systems, because I can't go to office even though I am the sole person, you know, for a lot of even medium-sized companies, there is only one person who kind of runs that company and they get to sort of ₹500-800 million turnover quite easily. They've realized that I actually now need to have some different control systems. And to me, I think this is the platform, the springboard from which we want to build what is digitization data, which is the glue. But you got to do it in small steps, uh, because that's only when— otherwise it's too much of a chasm for a small business to run. And I think these government systems, because a lot of applications now are online, are GST network, everything is done online, income tax is done online. It's getting the business owner, the proprietor, used to running things in a more structured fashion, and that should make it easier for them to do the same for their production systems, do the same for the supply chain, do the same for their quality systems. That's my thought.

Gopi, you would like to come here?

Yeah, yeah. Thanks a lot. So I mean, personally, first of all, see, I feel that Fifth Industrial Revolution is a very important thought process from here. It's not just about humanification or humanization. The most important thing we need to remember— so I'll start with one anecdote. What if human body was governed by 20 independent brains? Just imagine how funny we would walk, how funny we would talk. Right, my brain, one brain is saying that, is telling the left hand to do this, right hand to do something else. Imagine, just imagine how funny we would look. That's how all the revolutions have been. Each system is so independent and trying to operate in an independent silo with zero autonomy. So now my question back to each of you is, what of a smart city do you really experience to be smart, whether it's India or anywhere else? Nothing. Because 99% of its citizens are not a part of the data collection, not a part of the decision-making process. The city managers, which are the municipalities or the government, political leaders or bureaucracy or anyone, they're not making decisions based on the citizen intelligence. The services to the citizens that a city is supposed to provide is only provided by the 1% decision makers. So Fifth Industrial Revolution is very critical That's why we say that it's, it's bringing focus back to humans, which is the 99%. So let's start making decisions keeping 99% in mind, and the 1% should act from that perspective. So from that thought process, what we say is whether it's a large organization like a multi-billion dollar conglomerate or a small startup or a city itself or a defense setup establishment, you have to take the decision based on intelligence collected, not data that is processed, because data collected is of no good. Okay, I know that Amit is 6 foot tall. What do I do with that, right? If the data is about intelligence that I'm building a door that needs to be 6 foot and 3 inches because Amit wears shoes that are 1.5 inches, so I need to build a door that's 6 foot 3 inches, that's intelligent. So that's where I feel that Industry Revolution 4.0 technologies bring us is the intelligence. The 5.0 is about how do we leverage that intelligence. And convert that intelligence into inclusive, sustainable decisions towards the largest set of this world, which is humans. I think what's happening is AI will replace humans, machine learning will replace jobs, you know, robots will replace humans. This stupid conversation needs to end now because we created those robots, we developed that AI. The only reason we speak that language is because the 99% was left out of the equation whenever we design such systems. So I think IR 5.0 is a very important revolution, which is what, you know, Atul, we were saying before you joined, I was personally saying that we should call it inclusive revolution because we need to include all the technologies that we have from the past, whether it's electricity, whether it's a steam engine, whether it's AI, whether it's computers, mobile technology, or internet, we need to club it together and now think it from an inclusive perspective. How can this serve a larger set of the world in a better, more responsible and inclusive manner. So I think I would let Andrew speak. I can see that what the hell these guys are just talking. Yes.

I was about to request him because he's seeing it from a different perspective. Obviously it's important to see what he has to say on this.

Yeah. So I think there's some fascinating facets here. So one, it's interesting to note that Silicon Valley money was responsible for a lot of the kind of hegemonic firms, right, your Uber, your Airbnb, and these are very much the platforms of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, right? Like, there's that famous quote that, you know, Uber is the world's largest taxi service but owns no car, and that's kind of a telltale sign of it. However, I'm curious, given the lack of inclusivity of those, right, because Facebook, you know, owns all our data, but that data is not readily shared with cities, to make life better for all of us. Does the Silicon Valley business model of going for that unicorn billion-dollar firm and privatizing so much for that 1%, both of the population and of the financial sphere, does that business model structurally prohibit the Fifth Industrial Revolution from naturally occurring? And would a better model be provided by India which something I also deeply admire about Indian society is these vast moral movements from, you know, Gandhi ushering in the end of the British Empire to the like decades-long work that Modi was responsible for, things like that. So India has a cultural precedence of long-term moral thinking. Um, is it possible to marry the idea of a better life for all of us within the Fifth Revolution while getting rid of the Silicon Valley model, which just intrinsically it's all privatized, and that's like the exclusion to most of us. Do you even see this as a feasible option in Indian culture and society?

So, so I'd like to, uh, yeah, Amit, if you allow me, because I'm going to bring both Kate and Andrew together and put that question to you, uh, with, with whatever little that I, I wanted Sylvie, and that is India is primarily a country which is of entrepreneurs and especially not the large corporates. And we have MSMEs, SMEs, and also the village industry which is thriving. Now, how do you take this to that extreme, to the other end? Because unless we have everybody, I mean, participating in this, we won't really get the desired I mean, goal that we are looking for. And that's my question to you, putting these two things together. Please go ahead.

So I have two thoughts. Number one is whenever you have new technology that comes in, there's always a unicorn or someone who leads that, you know, the tip of the arrow. And probably the last two decades it's been the Facebooks and the Ubers. Of so-called who have led it, and I think they've done a wonderful job. Now we need to look at all the positives, what they've done, and then look at the collaborative nature of how information can be more inclusive, leveraging almost 99% of the society and make it more collaborative. And I think that's what we're trying to aim with between 4 and 5, right? Now you'll be surprised to know that using WhatsApp, as well as Facebook, the amount of marketplace that has developed in India at the grassroots is amazing. You'll also be surprised to know that technology has really helped agriculture, which still continues to be a large part of our economy in India, to really digitalize agriculture, insurance, the way, you know, fertilizers are used, the planning of the crops. A lot of us in the privileged parts of the globe feel that digital hasn't penetrated grassroots. I tend to disagree. I'm more optimistic. And I feel it has done a wonderful job. The amount of smartphones that India has is crazy. The marketplace these smartphones allow is enormous. I do go to the interior parts of India and I see a very optimistic picture in the way these people have really latched on to technology. And there are these unstructured marketplaces today. You'll be surprised to know the amount of penetration in deeper interiors of India. The second part I would say is India is not about large firms. We, as rightly Atul, you said, are a pocket of bunch of entrepreneurs with almost 25 countries or 30 countries together, different language, different style, you know, but still it all comes together. So there's a glue which is basically cultural glue, and digital is strengthening and cementing that further. The recent changes in GST could be looked at in a way that it makes it more data and process driven, but it also opens up the gates across states for goods to go across. You know, we don't have those barriers that we used to have in the past, right? So there are a lot of positives. And I think this is where lies the optimism that as we gather this data, leverage all the good that has happened, learn from some of the gaps that are there, create more regional and local collaborative networks rather than a global marketplace. I think future is about more local marketplaces, a more identifiable marketplace. If I'm a producer, I need to sell to sustain myself in my region, 100-kilometer radius. Is there a mini Facebook there? Is there a mini Amazon there? And I think those networks powered by digital will certainly propel not India, but of course other parts of the globe as well, the so-called developing portions of Africa, Southeast Asia, to also leverage technology. I think technology and digital is like an equalizer today. And that equalizer is allowing wealth to be distributed fairly across. We do not have the barriers in past where capital and the amount of money you can raise drove your large industrial ambitions. An entrepreneur in India with just a smartphone and some product that is locally produced becomes a seller, right? With digital currency and the work that we're doing in India with, you know, the so many wallets that without naming any, with so many wallets and the mega applications that are coming will truly revolutionize and get all these things together. Last but not the least, I would say that, you know, every movement would have its pros and cons. And again, I'm optimistic. Smart city is not just about technology and digital. It's about a way of thinking. It's about thinking differently, being a more responsible citizen, looking at your city as an ecosystem which you have to develop further. And I think the seeds of that have been sown. You go to the tier 1— sorry, tier 2 and tier 3 cities. Beyond the Mumbai, Bangladeshs, and Delhi, you'll find amazing innovations, amazing facilities, and the decision and data out there is actually based on citizen. We're using at the command control central across 100 cities in India smart devices to manage traffic, to look at a more fair manner to divert water to areas which is required, to look at hospitals' readiness to tackle pandemics like we, we've done. And of course, the whole world is grappling on this, looking at oxygen supply, looking at medicine. So data has started delivering. Smart cities have started delivering. There is a lot more to do. And I think with optimism, we would have much better chance to achieve our desired state of utopia than with looking at what we don't have.

Because—

but of course, Anything that we don't have should propel us to ask questions, to debate and improve. But I'm very optimistic. I think 4.0 is delivering at grassroots. It is the smaller industries, the MSMEs, which will take innovation at a rapid pace, then the larger behemoths that have enjoyed a much larger share of economy. I think both will coexist. But we'll see far new entrepreneurs, smaller marketplaces, buyers and sellers, and a more localized regional approach, because identity is much more important to the youth and the citizens of tomorrow as compared to in past. So with that, I'll say, Atul, that I think it's about being local, thinking global, and leveraging digital glue to reach your ambitions. And we have that in India.

No, no, I mean, Amit, I fully agree with you because I also work in the rural and not so, I mean, known area of the Northeast India, and it's a phenomenal change that we see on the ground. So my question to Gopi, Suket, and you would be, I mean, the initiatives of Government of India, whether it is Smart City or whether it is the Digital India or Startup India and things like that, How do you see this actually, I mean, turning into a wave and a common Indian adopting this or embracing this and not really the government-driven, you know, agenda? Because as of now, there's a lot of effort that the government needs to do, you know, in educating people, in telling people that please go on to the technology platform, please move to the, you know, these digital platforms. So how do you make this more friendly in that sense and also more safe and secure? Because that is one of the biggest concern in the country. We go into the interiors that, no, no, this is not safe. This is, you know, different frauds that you see using these technology platforms. So how do you ensure this? Anybody? Gopi, if you want to take this first and then we can move.

Sure. Yeah. Thanks a lot, Atul. See, Atul, I think the most important thing is, like I said just a while back, is that there are some very important stakeholders, whether it's a citizen or various technology companies that are coming up. For example, let us take an example of a very, very widespread app for COVID, that is Aarogya Setu, that's been across India. I tested positive while I was in India in June last year. I tested positive, but Arogyasetu showed negative all the way, safe, everything, and a month later it showed positive. And that's literally me, my wife, and everyone else. The point is not that the app is working or not. The point is not if the call center is taking the relevant responsibility and coming forward or not. The point here is there are much more able technology companies out there in the country. There are much more young technologists out there in the country who would do a far better job than a 65 or 70-year-old scientist trying to develop, sitting in a bureaucratic chamber and taking a decision for 1.3 billion people, which is exactly what I'm coming back to you from, right? We're working on 23 smart cities with a very large PSU. I'm not going to take names. And there is no responsiveness. See, if there is a responsiveness in a smart city, then you take decisions. Why is there still a traffic jam? Why is an ambulance stuck in the road? Why are there still ambulance deaths being stuck in the traffic more prevalent than the ambulance reaching the hospital? And why doesn't the citizen services being provided in a certain manner which is more accurate the way— see, why is Swiggy successful? Why do you love a Swiggy? And why are you frustrated with the government app? Because for driver's license, you have a separate app. For water, you have a separate app. For electricity bill, you have a separate app. Are you kidding me? Are you really going to— it's like I have to download 100 different applications for 100 different restaurants. Would you download 100 different applications for 100 different restaurants? So I think it's important that government of India reduces— I wouldn't say red tape. I would say their forthcoming attitude towards how a technology has to be developed. You cannot develop a technology protocols in silos. And suddenly accept the young technologies to follow, which is why you give birth to a cryptocurrency, because there will be technology rebels out there and they will dominate the dominance. So whether one likes it or does not like it, so it's important for government in India to take a purposeful action than very restrictive decisions that this is how it's going to function. Like whether it comes to drones, drones are— drones can be a boon, drones can be a bane. Now, to protect drones from being a bane, government has to include the right partners, right stakeholders who have that ability to bring that intelligence to government, so that government can create that protocol so that there's a healthy environment. So I think from there, you know, I would just simply stop by saying that it's important to have a more inclusive conversation in India, which is what is very different, has been in America. I do agree with Andrew that Silicon Valley is, you know, is a behemoth. It is a very profit-driven, capitalistic mindset, but they have the ability to reach global levels and make that impact because they are very profit-driven. But at the same time, they are also serving a purpose. I think here we are missing out on purpose and profit and people because we're looking all of that independently. So from that, I would say it's important that Indians and India looks at it from a very inclusive perspective. And how do we take those decisions so that it benefits every single stakeholder, not just 2 or 3 or 4? Like, how do we benefit all the stakeholders from a very responsible fashion? So Suket, over to you.

Yeah, thanks. I'll just take a quick 30 seconds. I am very optimistic. So if I didn't come across as that, I'm sorry. The reality is that IndiaStack, UPI, they are transformative. Nobody in the world has done anything like the UPI infrastructure. The challenge with technology is don't deploy it for the sake of deploying it. Deploy it when you know how to use it. When you're putting in place smart cities, yes, there are lots of projects, but it has not changed the way in which the citizen is served. You know, Gopi was referring to it as inclusive. If I deploy technology in my company, there's no point in me putting in place a system unless I change my process, unless I change my people, to deliver to me a different outcome. And I think that's what Swiggy and Zomato did. They made— they gave every little restaurant access to customers that were not accessible earlier, but there was a reason for that. Changed the way that supply chain in every town and city around restaurants work. I think I'll just quickly ask— close— Andrew raised a very important point, and I don't know how structurally this has changed, but I've been using Instagram, people I follow, to understand the emotional health of people for the last 16 months because that is an indicator of what's really going to happen in our business going forward. It could be Germany, it could be Australia. That's a very important piece of data. It's only my brain which is drawing that judgment. Machines aren't capable of drawing that judgment yet, thankfully. If that data was accessible, it would give people who were taking decisions about lockdowns and restrictions a far richer canvas on which to tailor decision-making, and maybe a different structure is needed to manage that.

Andrew?

Yeah, so I know we're almost out of time. I think a good way to go about this is to share best practices. So if you've ever looked into the government of Estonia, they're mostly digital now, and they have a very aggressive Russia on their border, but they're still able to have a functioning democracy Healthcare is all digital and online. So I think if Estonia can do it with Russian aggression, uh, you can just share those best practices. And, you know, it's like a node of the internet. Like, once one best practice is established, if it works for people, if it helps their lives a little bit, you don't even have to make a company out of it. It's just— this is a functional thing because the technology is ubiquitous. So yeah, I think sharing the best practices, and Estonia has done a great job in the face a lot of adversity of digitizing their civic life.

Yeah, I think, uh, we've already, uh, overshot about 15 minutes, although possibly we might have started late because of my glitch. But then we will have to close this. Uh, just last comment. Yes, yes, please, please.

Yeah, I think we should keep in mind the big success of India in the IT domain in the last 2.5 decades was not because of government, but because of lack of government control. It was because of entrepreneurs, dreamers, innovators who were ambitious. We need to be very careful to demand things from the government. ID revolution, where India dominates, still dominates, is because of lack of government. But bodies like NASCOM, the WIPROs, Infosys, TCSs, Ed Seals that made that happen. And today, Accenture has more people in India than Accenture worldwide. IBM has more people in India than IBM worldwide. And it happened not because of government control. I think we need to also look at our new budding entrepreneurs in college and universities and let them think freely to look at things they can do with their own hand and mind. And I think the lesser the control, I think the governments should provide a base. Everything else will happen on that. And the US provides a strong judicial system, a strong base for entrepreneurs to flourish. I think parts of that needs to be leveraged wherever good things are. But I believe an example I want to put in point was the IT revolution of India. And I always look at this when I hear things about government support. It is the lack of that that propels innovation. And I think we should be very careful to ask more of this government change. We should be more about us changing and leveraging the opportunities that come at us. And with that, Atul, I would say we've had a very healthy discussion, but I'm very optimistic. And I think 5.0 is there. There would be probably 6 and 7 in future as well. Let's look at a more collaborative, inclusive, I agree, more human-centric system, people and coexistence and make it truly global and benchmarked.

Thanks.

No, definitely. I mean, I'm also very optimistic and since I work with youngsters, I mean, they are phenomenal. Go to any part of India and the youngsters are doing extremely, you know, amazing stuff that we possibly never thought of. So I mean, just to conclude from my side, I'm going to say that the 5th Industrial Revolution possibly is going to give us the experience which the past generations never had. In that sense, I am definitely optimistic that this is going to be a very, very different experience. And this also has the potential to initiate a new socioeconomic era, which is also important for India, that it will close the gap between the top and the bottom. This is, this is to me the biggest advantage that the 5th Industrial Revolution will bring to India. It will close the gap because no more are going to be the haves and have-nots. Everybody will be having it. You can't stop it because it's on technology, because it's available to anyone sitting anywhere. So, so I think this is, this is what therefore Industrial Revolution 5.0 is going to bring to India. I'm very optimistic. I just wanted to, you know, play the devil's advocate so that someone who's not from the technology— I mean, in that sense, the technology background— can make it simple for people, common men, to understand. Thank you, gentlemen, for your time. Thank you, audience, for your patience. Look, we'll see you again.

Thank you.

Thank you all.

Namaste, everyone. Thank you.

Thank you, guys. Bye.

Thank you.