Ep 50 Service Without Attachment A Conversation with Darren Mitchell

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just what becomes audible when the noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. These conversations are not about delivering insight. They are about thinking together in real time Testing ideas against stillness, letting 2 open minds stretch each other. The intention is simple: to create a space where clarity can emerge and where listeners don't just consume perspectives but feel permission to engage their own thinking more honestly. Today I'm joined by Darren Mitchell, Darren has spent decades inside environments where performance is measurable, pressure is constant, and outcomes matter. From elite sport and high-performance coaching to leadership advisory and organizational transformation, his work lives as the intersection of standards and humanity. But this conversation isn't about trophies. It's about alignment. We explore what happens when discipline is no longer driven by fear, how culture is not built through slogans but through lived behavior, how high performance begins to shift when people stop performing for approval and start operating from internal clarity. This exchange is not about optimization of frameworks. It's about embodied leadership. Because when the nervous system steadies, execution sharpens. When identity stops clinging to results, results often improve. What matters here isn't intensity. It's the quality of awareness inside the pressure. And with that, welcome to the show, Darren.

Thank you, Markus. What a, what a great introduction. It's absolutely a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Thank you for taking and making the time. So before we begin, when I speak of coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is in conflict. Body, thoughts, emotions, and action aligned, moving as one. No push, no urgency, no fear driving the moment. And when I speak of stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the part of you untouched by expectation or performance, the place that knows. before the mind tries to manage it. That's the ground I'd like us to meet on today.

Cool. Sounds good.

So with that, Darren, where can you just be yourself, untouched by expectation or performance?

So say that again. Where, where can I be? Or where am I?

Where can you just be yourself, Untouched by expectation or performance?

Well, it's a really interesting question, Markus. And one of the, one of the areas that I have got into that state is actually doing podcasts like this one. Well, it's, it's a case of you get to speak to, and you've, you've done this as well, you get to speak to people from Different industries, different positions, different countries in the world, and you're exploring people's stories. And we talked earlier just before pressing record, it's like a fireside chat where you're really showing a level of interest in the other person. And in that sort of situation, irrespective of the seniority or the experience or the performance of the individual, you're coming together with 2 curious minds that are just there to try and understand, A, what makes each other tick, and B, what's the story behind what makes people tick. And there's no pretense they have to be a certain type of person. We're just having a conversation as 2 human beings. And for me, having done this, my podcast for over 6 years now, it's an interesting space where I don't have to prove anything. I don't have to list credentials or I don't have to list outcomes or wins or even talk about the named clients or the brand names that I've been associated with. You're just 2 humans having a conversation, which is very freeing. So you can actually be yourself, which is really cool.

Has that once been different?

What was that? Sorry.

Has that once been different?

Yeah, it's sometimes when you're out in the industry, I'm not saying we all do this, but sometimes we become products. Well, we all become products of the environment, but a lot of people go through their life and sometimes through their career in an unconscious state, not knowing really why they're doing what they're doing. And you said to me before, just again, before we press record, asking 2 fundamental questions, why am I here and why am I here?

Mm-hmm.

Once you understand that, then it doesn't really matter what sort of results you're getting because you're on a journey, you're on a hero's journey. And that hero's journey doesn't necessarily end, it just goes into different phases. So I find that when I'm at my best, when I'm at my most content, I'm not taking on a certain archetype, I'm just being me. And when you're being yourself, you don't have to apologize for anything. You certainly don't have to apologize for who you are. Will that be that people will resonate with you? Yes. Will it also mean that sometimes people won't resonate with you? Yes, that's true. But I'm okay either way because what you get is me. So I almost like to think, well, every conversation, every client, every workshop, every interaction, I want to make that interaction as authentic as it possibly can. So I bring myself to that. So I'm not having to pretend who I'm potentially not to fill the void of what other people might think.

Before I lose my thought, it's such a fascinating thing. So it's the easiest for you to be yourself, untouched by expectation or performance when you do podcasts. So I was wondering, so what happens when Darren is off podcast? But then you add almost seamlessly, when I'm in client work, when I do, you know, workshops or seminars or anything like that, it's almost like a seamless continuation of that. And then you mentioned something interesting. So there is a motive behind that you actually can be so easily yourself. It's being of service.

Correct.

So does that mean if you would not be of service, let's say if money would be your driver number one, which I don't think it is, money is a result even for you as well, I don't know. Would that mean that ego would take a much more prominent, um, place if you were not literally dedicating yourself to a service?

Yes, I would, I would say so. And the reason, the reason I, excuse me, the reason I would say that is As you know, my background is in sales and there are a lot of salespeople, there are a lot of sales leaders, there are a lot of senior executives in sales who are, at least from the outside, very driven by ego. So a lot of the, a lot of the actions they take, the behaviors they demonstrate, they almost appear to be self-driven and that is self-driven by self-interest. And what I find is there is a small percentage of people, whether it be an individual contributor, a sales leadership type role, or even an executive, where they lead by service. And that is, they think, how can I best serve this person? It could be a peer, it could be a customer, it could be a partner, it could be a senior executive. How do I lead with service so that person can be better for having had an interaction with me? And so it comes from a completely different place. Now, what's really interesting about that is when I talk about that in a form of sales, when I'm doing a sales training or some sort of leadership training and I say things like, well, sales is actually the ultimate form of service. Sometimes, Markus, people look at me as if I'm an alien, right?

Understandably.

What do you mean? What do you mean it's the ultimate form of service? We're here to sell products. We're here to make profitability and I'm here to collect commission checks. And I said, well, just think about it for a second. If you take on the adage or the philosophy that sales is the ultimate form of service, what are you actually now doing? Well, what you're doing is you're looking for opportunities to solve problems. But firstly, you're looking to identify problems that either individuals or companies may be experiencing that they're not necessarily aware of yet.

And

if I can help articulate that, then, and I do it from a position of there's nothing in it for me, I'm giving them the opportunity, I'm increasing their level of awareness. I'm I'm expanding their level of, for want of a better term, consciousness, then they will unconsciously attribute me as potentially having a solution to the problem. Now at that point, it becomes a really interesting juncture because at that point I have a choice to make. Do I now go forth and provide a solution that's gonna benefit me and therefore I'm driven by self-interest? Or do I give them the option and the opportunity to make a buying decision because it's gonna serve them? And through that process, I may get compensated. Sometimes I may not. It's a completely different philosophy and approach because the other thing is that a lot of salespeople have this fixation that it's an individual transaction and then they move on to the next transaction. Now, if you think about particularly in the business that I operate in, the market I operate in being business to business, sales, a lot of your customers and clients will be repeat clients. So you've got to look after them post the sale. So another part of that is the sale does not begin until after the sale is made.

Mm-hmm.

So being of service then means how do I look for an opportunity to help this particular individual or help this particular team or help this particular organization with no expectation of anything in return? So I'm not doing it for a transaction. I'm doing it to potentially help because maybe I can see something that they don't see yet.

So that strikes me interesting what you just said. So let me be a devil's advocate for a moment, Darren. One could say this guy's a smooth talker.

Mm-hmm.

He knows very much how to phrase things so they come across as philosophically so beautiful and self-evident. What is the opposite of self-serving?

Self-sacrificing?

Basically altruistic, right? And if one doesn't know you, they could literally think, gosh, this guy is really trained so well that he can kind of disguise his self-serving motives. But that's not what you are. So what is it that really drives you, Darren?

It's helping, it's serving, it's helping people, helping them become better. I mean, we talked earlier about the hero's journey and every single person on the planet is on a hero's journey and many people are at different stages of that hero's journey. It's a genuine desire to help people and help organizations improve. Now, they may have different ideas in terms of what the improvement is in terms of measurable outcomes. But the other part of this is when you're a person who is there to serve, you cannot be attached to the outcome. Because if you're attached to the outcome, then it's about you. You want that outcome, which is more self-serving. It has to be—

Mm-hmm.

What is the outcome that the client is looking for? Or what is the outcome or the progress they need to make that I can help them with and have the satisfaction that they are making progress? And through that progress, then of course you'll get, you'll get looked after, you'll get compensated, but you're not doing it for the compensation.

Mm-hmm.

You're doing it because you're gonna help this person on the next step of their hero's journey or the next evolution of their company's development or the next evolution of the individual's development. Now, it's, it's really, it's really interesting because people may sit there and say, well, excuse me, that's, it's really unusual in sales. And when you ask most people around sales, they won't necessarily have a positive approach or a positive connotation around it. They'll think, oh, they're all out there to sell you stuff that you don't want, you don't need. So I don't like to be sold to. But if you ask the same people, do they like to buy? 99.9% of people say, I love to buy. So when you think about it, and this is just, this is human behavior. It's not, it's not just in sales, right? How do I help this person make an educated buying decision that fits their criteria and enables them to make progress according to where they want to make progress, not where I want to make progress for them. It's where they want to make progress. And so a great salesperson then becomes almost like a

guide. Fascinating.

But also guides are not there just for purely altruistic reasons. They will be there to prod, they'll be there to challenge, they'll be there to maybe give some harsh talking too when it's necessary, but all designed to help and to serve.

Would you say that the actual sales, and I'm not naive if I ask that, I know there are skills and techniques and everything required to actually get there. But would you say there in the end, and that actually could apply to anywhere in life as you put it, that the actual sales is actually superfluous as a result from being in service plus knowing what you do?

Yes. And that's why I say that you've got to remove yourself or disassociate yourself from the outcome.

I think that's

deep. Well, it is, but it's also, many people might think, well, that's counterintuitive because they'll be sitting there thinking, hang on, I'm in a sales role. I have a sales target that I have to hit. And if I don't hit my sales target, then my manager is going to be having conversations around performance, right?

I'll be on a performance improvement plan.

So, and what I say to people like that is, okay, you've got to think really deeply about why you are in this particular organization and why you are in sales as a profession. And at the end of the day, you're not gonna convert every single customer. So not every single person you come across who you'd like to help and to serve is gonna see the same thing as you do or want the same things that you want for them. And so you've gotta have, and this is where the numbers game comes into it, you've gotta have enough people to be able to talk to that across the law of averages, you will be taken care of because the overall philosophy is I'm here to serve, I'm here to help. I just have to talk to enough people that there'll be enough people wanting to make a decision at that particular time that my targets will be taken care of. Because if I go to the market with the pressure on myself to hit a particular number, energetically, psychologically, almost unconsciously, you're gonna come across with a hint of desperation and people can detect that. And we talk a lot about selling. Yeah, well, and we talk a lot about this concept called commission breath. You can tell when a person who's trying to sell you a service or a product or a widget or whatever they're trying to sell, even an idea, they're trying too hard. There's a hint of desperation and you get a sense of, hang on, they want this more than I do. There must be some ulterior motive. And most of the time that ulterior motive is selfish driven because they need to hit a quota or they need to hit a number or they're under pressure from somebody. What I'm trying to say is if you get into a position where you are of true service, you talk to enough people just by the sheer weight of numbers and the energy that you create, there'll be people that will be coming to you because of the attractive force that you create.

I think what's really interesting, you know, I've been in sales myself for more than 20 years. I realized that the more coherent you are, The fewer conversations you need to actually hit your quota. So this is like a statement. Then there is a question. And the question is, is it possible that quite a few people are in sales who actually should not be in sales? And many people who should be in sales are not. Because of the examples the other ones have set in the world.

Correct.

Because if you think about that, if we think about sales is a superfluous result of being in service and knowing what you do, that requires quite a special type of person. And one of my former mentors said it really well. He said, you have to become more interested than wanting to be interesting.

Correct.

And I believe that's the biggest hurdle for salespeople, isn't it?

It is. And what's, what's interesting about that is often I'll use that terminology in a sales training. And again, people look at me as if to say, what do you mean? Because here's the thing, the vast majority of salespeople across the world are trained predominantly in their products, their services, their processes, their sales methodology. They're not trained near enough on the art of human-to-human connection and what actually drives that human connection and ultimately the results that they're all saying they want. So if they spent time on the soft skills, if they just took that, if they just took that phrase that you just shared, just be more interested in others and through that process you're likely to become interesting. If you did not do any sales training whatsoever and you had a concept where that person who you instill into an organization And that's the only thing that they're gonna become world expert in. I guarantee they'll eventually outperform most, if not all, of the sales team.

I definitely believe that.

Yes,

I definitely do believe that.

Yeah. And I know that because I've seen, I've seen people do it. I've seen people come into an organization and they've known absolutely nothing about the product. They've known nothing about service, but they've been placed in front of customers and they've been able to get more information out of the customers than the salesperson who's been involved in that account for like 3 or 4 years has ever been able to do simply through the level of curiosity because they lived and breathed that concept. I'm genuinely interested in you and through that process, I'm not doing it so I can be interesting. It's a byproduct of me being genuinely interested. And it's legitimate and people can feel it, right? People's BS meters are pretty good, right? Particularly in Australia.

Yeah, absolutely.

And they know that it's— oh man. And if you've got somebody in front of you, they're asking all these questions under the guise of I'm really interested in this, but they're not actually listening to what you're saying. Then very quickly the radar goes up and says, well, the antenna goes up and says, hmm, This is a sales technique and I'm gonna be on guard. I'm not gonna give as much as I would normally give if I feel that somebody was genuinely interested in me.

So the whole stillness character for you, was there a pivotal moment when something shifted in you? When you realized success basically stopped being enough for you?

Yeah, it's a lot. It was a long time ago though. And it was, it was when I was making the transition from an individual contributor into a sales leadership role.

Interesting. Tell me a bit more about that, please.

And well, I'd spent, I'd spent about 2 years getting ready for because I wanted to be a sales leader. I wanted to be able to help people, mentor, coach, develop people. And I just felt that I had more impact in that area. And so through that 2-year period, I had a number of, I guess, mentors, both good and not so good, that taught me principles around how to be a good people leader, how to be really present with people and just demonstrate some of the behaviors that I think are linked to being an exceptional leader, full stop. And then I had other examples where perhaps the leaders who are responsible for a team didn't necessarily exhibit the attributes or the characteristics or the behavior that underpinned exceptional performance, but sustainably exceptional performance. So it gave me the opportunity to formulate, I guess, my own approach to it. And then when I got the opportunity, it was the opportunity for me to start to implement a lot of these philosophies, a lot of these principles. But even then, it wasn't easy because there was the internal self-driven ego that said, I want to be part of this particular deal. I want to get the accolades. I want to make sure that people who are important, particularly within the organization, know that I am part of this and I had a part to play and I contributed and I'm valuable and that sort of stuff. And then I sat down one day and said, yeah, and then I said one day, you know what, it really does— why does it matter? And the language I use with myself is, who cares? Who cares who gets the accolades? The important thing is that we as an organization, as a team, are able to provide a solution to a problem that a customer has. And if they're happy with the solution, then it doesn't matter who gets the recognition for it. And so this stillness came over me and that's when I started to completely change the way I ran the team. The conversations that I had with the individuals within the team changed. And yes, there was still a sense of urgency because we still had tangible targets to hit.

Mm-hmm.

But the way we did that, and I knew that I had to be the example that I wanted to see play out in the team. So I couldn't be the ego-driven, hard and fast numbers, numbers, numbers, sales leader, but I had to be more of a human individual that enabled people to maybe express themselves in the way that they did, still use some common principles and some common values that we established as a team, but literally be themselves. And over time, that worked. Now, there was challenges because it still— we didn't win every single deal that we went for. And you can, you can never do that because sales is not perfect. But what I look back on is I created a culture where people loved and learned to love what they did and they started to have a different approach to this thing called selling and what selling actually means.

It's interesting. So this leads me to an interesting question for myself. If I were to meet you, let's say somewhere in a coffee in Melbourne, would I meet the same Darren Mitchell that I meet in a sales training or even on here on this show right now?

That's a really interesting question. Now, my answer to that, Markus, is yes, I would like to think that is the case. But that's me through my filters, right?

Yeah.

What, what we would have to do is probably ask others who have experienced that and say, are there any differences? One of the things I've—

So why do you think we even have that need of being different on a podcast or on, on a sales training than How we are, it's just when we meet people.

I mean, I don't know, there could be lots and lots of different answers for that. My own personal response to that question is all of us play different characters at different times and in different environments. So we're almost putting on the mask or putting on the cape or putting on a different character, stepping into a different character. I've come to realize that playing different characters in different situations is just hard work. Right? Because you've got to remember in this particular situation with that particular context and that particular individual group of individuals, I have to behave in this way, which means there's a lot of mental effort that goes into that and the chance of making some errors and coming across as disingenuous increases versus if I know who I am and if I'm really comfortable with that and I'm working hard on being me. So whether you see me in a coffee shop, when you hear me on a podcast, when you see me on stage doing a conference, when you see me running a sales training, It should be, it should be exactly the same. It's, oh, you're exactly— and the test for that for me is often when I'm meeting people who have seen me in different environments, they often say you're no different. And I take that as a huge compliment because it's something I've had to work really hard on and not want to be somebody that I'm not.

Do you remember when I was a guest on your show, we talked about pseudo imposter syndrome? And I called it nothing else than we have no bloody clue who we are.

That's it.

And that's the key.

That's it.

That is the key. So why would we dare to drop the roles and the capes if we do not know who we are behind that? If all we stand on is a foundation that basically has been provided by our environment, Yeah. I would not do it either. I think it would be suicide. So I do understand people who are under constant noise never get to that level of stillness where they actually can ask, is this it? Is there more? So interestingly enough, and I assume you have experienced that yourself, Darren, there comes a time Where this little voice starts asking these questions inside. Is this it? Is there more? And I believe that's when someone begins to kind of wake up and becomes alive.

Yeah.

Because that way you're really being— yeah, please go ahead.

I was just going to say, when that happens, often, often they live— people like that tend to live according to other people's expectations or fitting into the narrative that they believe they should be in the context of the role they have. But outside of that, they tend to live with that external locus of control. So everything that's happening, it's happening and I can't really control that versus the people that ask that question, is this it? Is this who I am? Am I happy with this? Am I content with this? They have a level of self-acceptance. Then they start to turn and create the internal locus of control to say, irrespective of the circumstances and what's happening in my environment, I have the power to choose how I respond to the things that are happening in that environment. And it doesn't mean that everything you, you, you touch turns to gold and you're not going to have any challenges. But what it does mean is you've got a choice. in terms of how you respond. And when I have a choice, then at least I'm in control of the language that I use, the behaviors that I demonstrate, and the thinking that I, that I have through that process, irrespective of what the outcome is going to be.

Because— Now think about, let's go to sales for a moment.

Yeah.

Now we have the sales leader who is not coherent, who basically believes what his environment told him he is and has to be. How can this person be a great leader? It's almost impossible.

Yeah, correct.

How can that salesperson be a great salesperson? It's almost impossible. Because interestingly enough, I believe you can only become interested more than interesting when you have reached that level of self-awareness And you realize, gosh, I can just show up on this show as a host and just see where we're going instead of making sure that I come across as the Croesus in the end or put you on a pedestal.

Mm-hmm.

So isn't know thyself actually a key to success?

I think it's probably one of, if not the most important keys to success.

And it makes you interesting. And that's the, that's the fun stuff, isn't

it? It is. But you don't go out there trying to be interesting, right?

That's the thing.

And, and you, and you go back to all the key philosophers in the world, and the biggest one that just comes to mind as you're talking, that is, is Jim Rohn, who used to say, work hard on yourself. than you do on your job, right? And personal development. And we hear a lot of, a lot of people talk about the fact that your, your outside growth will only be in line with your rate of internal growth. And it staggers me, Markus, and I'm interested in your take, the number of people that don't read books, don't listen to podcasts, don't self-educate, they don't take responsibility for their own development, expecting others to do that for them.

Yes.

And yet they're plateauing, right? So the philosophy that I've lived with certainly for the last 10 years is how do I help others, but also how do I help myself become better today than I was yesterday? Even if it's just one small thing, what do I know today? What can I find out today that I didn't know yesterday? But how can I look forward to tomorrow and learn something about tomorrow, which is continuing to develop that self-awareness? And there's a lot of work in that, right? Because sometimes you might understand things and see things that you don't really like. But that's part of the hero's journey. You've got to understand that maybe that's one of the, not the internal mentors, maybe that's one of the challenges you've got to face, maybe the mirror.

But you see, at the same time, I'm not sure about you, but I actually dare to say it's for you as well. You know way better what your flaws are and what's wrong with you and your weaknesses than the opposite.

Yeah.

So sometimes people tell me, Markus, you have to be careful to not only show the good stuff to people. I said, no, actually I do not have to be careful because believe me, they have enough negative mirrors. They know enough who they're not are and what they're afraid of. So if we actually show other people what their greatness is, that's actually when they start to grow.

That's it. That's it. And when you think about it, I'm not sure who said this, but as human beings, we are hardwired to be tilted towards the negative. It's almost like part of our DNA as a human, as a human being. So being optimistic, taking that glass half full, instilling that growth mindset actually takes work. And you just see this all the time. And if you had 10 pieces of feedback from clients and 9 of those pieces of feedback were extraordinary, one wasn't so great. where do you think most people are gonna focus their attention? It's certainly not gonna be on the 9 that were fantastic. It's gonna be the one that wasn't so good and they're gonna be asking, what did I do wrong? What's wrong with me? Oh, therefore—

Do you know why that is?

Why is that?

It makes total sense because if you think about that, when we were children, we believed we were capable of everything. And suddenly the environment came and said, Darren and Markus, let me share some piece of truth and reality. So a programming happened. So if you have a programming, of course, you only resonate to the stuff that is accordance with the programming. Hmm. So you probably meet rarely people who say, you know what, I know exactly who I am and I know what I'm capable of. There are not many Arnold Schwarzeneggers who grew up with the moms Saying, Arnold, you can be and become anything you want in the world.

Yeah.

That's why. So when he heard the positive news, that's what he put into his scratchbook. But most people take that one negative, dissect it into thousands of pieces, so it becomes 100 times more potent than the other 9 success stories.

Yes.

And that's the craziness.

It's fascinating.

But you see, let's open a door for one moment. Before that moment happened where we started adapting to the world, we had that moment where we had all the executive functions. I just mentioned some: curiosity, courage, creativity. How many grownups do you meet who share these 3 to a strong point? Not many, right?

Not many. Not many. No.

And that's it. That's it. These executive functions, you could literally put into ChatGPT, for example, share with me 10 creative functions starting with C. Courage, creativity, and whatever. And you will see there's a whole plethora. So think about, Darren, we are born with all those creative functions intact as little seeds. If they had been nurtured at a young life, at a young age, it is so much easier at a later stage to actually return to them.

Hmm.

Because I believe that's what you've been doing when you described your own hero's journey. You suddenly remembered it's not the stuff that I've been taught outside, not the seminars, not all the workshops. The answers are inside.

Hmm.

And I believe that's the real hero's journey. I believe it happens and starts when something whispers inside. Markus, is this it?

Hmm.

You know, that's where the moment comes where success stops being enough. And, you know, I work with 2 people and the second is the worst if you think about that. They have literally accomplished and accumulated anything a human being could accomplish and accumulate. The one guy sold his company Has half a billion, with a B, US dollars on his bank account, and he's crushed.

Yeah.

Because now the inner being starts asking the question, is there more? This can't be it. Yep. This can't be it. So we are coming to the end. I have one more question for you. If someone feels overwhelmed right now, you know, in all the noise, what's going on in the world at the moment, what would you want them to return to, Darren?

Well, the first thing is remove all distractions from things like these, the mobile phones. One of the things I actually talk to leaders about is giving themselves the gift of A tea, well, a tea with me or a coffee with me, and that is 30 minutes per week. And it doesn't sound like a lot, but it's amazing how many people say, I'm just too busy to do this, Markus. I'm just too busy. You don't know how busy I am. 30 minutes per week of purposeful reflection time where they do 3 key things. One is they start thinking about all the things that have happened over the previous week that they are really pleased with. So what were the wins? What And this is trying to teach them the positive psychology of what they did well. But also consider what didn't go so well and what were the themes that came out of each of those that can be a catalyst for performance next week. And so that doesn't require reading books. It doesn't require listening to podcasts. It just requires you to have the discipline to put something in your diary to say, you know what, for 30 minutes, I'm going to have uninterrupted pure thinking time. And I say that if you can't come up with anything that's positive that's happened in the last week, then you're going to spend 30 minutes just thinking and maybe some questions will pop up, some realizations will start to happen because you're in silence, you're actually present with yourself and you're not being distracted by any external factor. Now, if you can do that as a discipline, it's amazing what will happen to people in 3 months' time, 6 months' time, let alone 12 months' time. And I've known people that have said, well, I now take an hour per week and I do that. And it's almost like a meditative state that they go into. But then there are others that don't do it because, ah, I'm too busy. I've got to go and do this next thing. So they forget the fact that they are human beings well before they are human doings. So the way I would do that is just take some time out where there's no distractions and I'm just thinking. You go internal and just ask some questions. What am I happy with? What have I worked on that's worked well? What are the wins that I've had? And don't move forward until I can identify at least 1, 2, or 3 things that are positive for the week.

That's beautiful. So let me add to that. So whenever someone gets to that point you just described and the question pops up, is this it or is there more to my life? The one thing that I recommend to do is to ask back, what if, question mark, there is something

more?

And then just listen. So with that, thank you so much for having been my guest, Dan. It's been a great pleasure.

Thanks, Markus. Absolute pleasure, my friend.

This was Remembering the Forgotten, a conversation held in clarity, not performance. If something in this exchange shifted how you see, let it stay with you. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.