Ep 58 Rooted in Disruption A Conversation with Kieve Huffman

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no performance, just 2 people thinking out loud. These conversations are not about delivering insight. They are about thinking together in real time, exploring what emerges when 2 open minds stretch each other. The intention is simple: to create a space where clarity can emerge and where listeners don't just consume perspectives but feel permission to engage their own thinking more honestly. There's a moment in emerging industries when belief isn't enough. Momentum requires structure. Today I'm joined by Keith Huffman. Keith has spent decades building businesses where the map doesn't yet exist, across digital media, cannabis, wellness, and plant medicine. Over the past 30 years, he has helped to build more than 60 brands. and contributed to generating more than $1 billion in revenue. From the outside, that looks like entrepreneurship. But this conversation isn't about launches or funding rounds. It's about what happens when new ideas collide with systems that weren't designed to hold them. We explore the tension between vision and infrastructure, Between innovation and the patience required to build something that can actually last. Because every emerging industry eventually reaches the same moment when the question stops being, is this possible? And becomes, can this be built to endure? And with that, Keith, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me, Markus. I'm excited to be talking to you today.

It's my pleasure. So before we begin, when I speak of coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is in conflict— body, no fear driving the moment. And when I speak of stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the part of you untouched by expectation or performance. The place that knows before the mind tries to manage it. That's the ground I'd like us to meet on today.

Well, I think where we are right now in, in, in the timing of Everything that's going on, it's so apropos to be having these kinds of conversations. I don't know if you've been feeling this or not, Markus, but 2026 already is off to an incredible, disruptive, fascinating start. And it's moving faster. Time just seems to be speeding up to me. And so I think that the importance of remaining still, of being present, is even more important than it's ever been before, because it can be quite overwhelming right now with all the changes that are happening.

I definitely second that.

All the truths that are starting to come out. this year, which are quite unsettling. And, you know, the whole universe right now is, is going through— so I'm— it's funny, I've never been a big astrology person. But I recently learned about the Year of the Fire Horse. And I don't know how familiar you are with that. But it comes every 60 years. And 120 years ago, the year of the fire horse coincided with the invention of the automobile, which was a hugely disruptive— Interesting. It changed the way people were able to move around, right? 60 years ago, the microchip, the computer chip processing, computer processing made incredible advancements. So some version, I would believe, of AI now with this being a fire horse year is kicking off. This next 60-year cycle. But we're just getting started. And for me personally, I'm very excited about it because I feel that we are at a moment now where the opportunities for people like myself that are trying to change the way that certain aspects of of society are working. And in my particular, I'm focused particularly on wellness and trying to provide more support for the business owners and the businesses that are trying to bring more natural holistic healing modalities to the world because we've gotten so far away from that, you know, over the last— Arguably 120 years, uh, has been in particular. And as a result, I feel like we are in this moment where, because we're at the beginning of a new fire horse year, I'm sensing that more people than ever are more open to exploring other alternatives around their wellness, around the way that they approach their lives in general. Mm-hmm. And a lot more questioning, you know. Well, is, is the doctor really operating in my best interest, you know, or is there something else going on there? You know, is the government operating in my best interest, or is there something else going on? Or is the financial system— you know,

it's usually follow the money, right?

It's, uh, yes, they all, they all kind of—

it's all this rhyme. Follow the money.

Absolutely.

You know what's interesting, Keith? When you started talking, I first thought I would interact, but I decided to listen. And I suddenly realized, hmm, Keith is not talking about divorce right now. He's not talking about the political turmoil we're in, in the US right now. No, he's actually talking about Positive stuff like AI advancement. And I said, it's actually cool to find a brother who is not spending his entire day in fear about when the world might go down now next, right? So that Year of the Horse, or the Fire Horse, I think it's called, right, is for you much more chance than danger. Is that correct?

Yes. Well, I'm a— I guess I'm an eternal optimist. And I'm a believer in love will win out over hate, that good will prevail over evil. And I feel like it's

enough

that the evil— evil wins out when everyone's fighting amongst themselves. And that's fear-based, right? And so for me, now is the time where we need to be rising above that and recognize That the powers that be that are wanting us to be so fearful of all the different things that are going on in the world and are getting caught up in these arguments that really, at the end of the day, aren't all— we all as humans have far more in common than we have differences, right? Mm-hmm. So, let's focus on that aspect and how we can now take advantage of all of these technological advances, all these— well, when I speak about medical, there are some amazing advancements being made on the longevity side. But quite honestly, Markus, most of the advancements that are happening now is actually us going back to the basics. You know, which is, we were given everything we need, you know, we were given sun and water and air and, you know, and plants and, you know, it's like, okay, we've gotten so far away from that with, you know, what we've been told, what we should and shouldn't be doing, what we're presented as food, which quite frankly, at least in the United States these days, it turns out

to be not food, right?

Is not food at all. A lot of these It's, it's quite, it's quite, it's quite awful. You know, all of the money. Exactly. Well, it's part of the, once again, you know, the cycle, right? That the system of like, all right, let's feed people this, get them, you know, and then that gets them sick, that then puts them into this other system that then will give them these, these pills that then they're gonna have to take for the rest of their lives. And wow, what, what, what great customers they are.

Yeah. And if you go and look who is in the end the recipients of all of the money, so interestingly enough, pharma, medicine, all these industries land more or less in the same hands in the end. And that's the craziness people don't see.

If you look at who actually owns the majority of the brands, In big food, big ag, and big pharma, they're pretty much all the same players. Exactly.

Exactly. And they're often the altruistic people who, you know, behave in the outside like being here for society and wanting just the best. And then you suddenly realize in the end, It's actually my best if I be them. And why I'm giving so much is probably partially to make me feel not so bad about what I'm doing and what I'm intending to do. So it's really interesting where our conversation goes. It goes somewhere I did not plan, literally not plan.

Usually that's the way with me, Markus. I have to say, I'm not, I typically have traveled the non-traditional routes and paths. You touched upon it in my intro. I'm very comfortable traveling without a road in places where there's no roadmap, right? Working in industries where we're basically making up the rules as we go along. And so As a result of that, I don't know if it's a result of that or it's just because of the way that my brain works and the way that I'm wired. I tend to not necessarily have the same answers that maybe everyone else might have to similar questions.

That's why I enjoy chatting with you because, you know, I should not have been surprised, to be honest, because the times we spoke, We always had this kind of conversations in the end, right? Let me ask you something specific, but just go ahead and I'll come with my question.

No, no, no, please.

Okay. So where can you just be yourself, untouched by expectation or performance?

Where physically can I be, or In

general.

In general,

because we are living in a noisy world. Let's be honest.

Absolutely. Well, I recently started to, to do transcendental meditation. Uh, oh, I don't know if you're familiar with TM or not.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. Uh, and I am, I am finding I've been meditating for many, many years. Um, And where I found it useful, I also never really found that— I always thought that there was something missing, that I wasn't doing something right. Because like, I was usually doing guided meditation, I would put on like a, you know, a YouTube, you know, video or something, or Spotify or something. And it was useful. But what I'm finding with TM is that it really truly gets me, makes me present. And it gets me— I've had some experiences that are, you know, I'd say as close as I've ever had in an awake— in an awakened state to dreaming.

Mm-hmm.

You know, where I've really had very vivid experiences both in the past and in the future. And for me, that's really been quite eye-opening in general for me. But those are the times I would say where I feel like I can be the most myself and present because I am able to completely not be focused on the outside noise because you are absolutely correct. It's—

So let's stay, let's stay here for a moment. And you know me, I'm a little bit of a provocateur. Why the heck are we human beings not able to be more ourselves, untouched by expectation or performance? Because let's be honest, this should be the natural state we're in.

It, it is. However, as someone who was brought up in a very traditional and religious household, I can tell you that there are from day from from the day you're born, there are very specific rules that you are taught. To follow, right? From— and

it's the environment in the end.

And a lot of this, you know, some people call it programming, right? But whatever, whatever it is, you know, the way that the school systems are set up, the way that, you know, it's like, this is, this is what is considered— this is the path that you're supposed to take. This is how you are considered to be successful in life. And this is how you are considered to be a contributing member to society that's in good standing. And that typically means don't question authority. Mm-hmm. Just do what you're told and work hard, you know, and make as much money as you can. And And then raise a family, have kids, and retire when you reach a certain age. And then, you know, that's kind of the whole, the whole program. So when you're, when that's, you know, and I'm speaking from my personal experience, which I think is a pretty common one, at least in, in, in Western civilization, particularly in the United States.

I agree. Yeah.

As long as you're comfortable enough in that world, it's sometimes just easier to stay there than to reconnect with sort of all of these things that I, at a much later— at a later age, have discovered that are open to every human. Right? The power of meditation, power of breathwork. I, uh, lately I've been doing breathwork too. I— breathwork's like a cheat code. I mean, it's incredible what can be accomplished just through breathing. Again, getting back to the basics, Markus, like—

Yeah, think about what is breathing. It's the engine of being a human being.

And breathing and breathwork can unlock so many things. Absolutely. Are fundamental to healing, to all different kinds of things, spiritual awakenings, to clarity. I mean, all of these different, you know, everyone has their own different experiences around it. But yeah, it's breathing in air, you know, like, that's—

So let's talk about the moment The opposite, what you're just talking about, Keith, has become the norm. People shallow breathing up here, right? Most people have never even heard that the diaphragmatic breathing exists. They're always up here shallow. And the society literally has declared that as the normal state.

Yeah.

Because the craziness is if the majority does it, it must be norm. No, I think it's very important to understand that the normal system, and it's interesting, I had a client and she always tells me the same thing. She said, suddenly you said to me, now you're breathing. And she thought, What kind of an arrogant statement is that? I've been more than 40 years old and you are coming and say, now you're breathing. But then she understood what I meant. It's not meant to be blocked all the time. Breathing, it breathes you if it works fine. It's not that we should control our breathing. That's BS. That's stress resolution. But literally, we should not look at you, Keith, and think, gosh, this guy is a pioneer. No, he's actually returning to the origin of himself. Correct?

Yeah. And it's been quite a journey, I will tell you. It's, as is the life, anyone's life, but particularly the life of an entrepreneur. It's never a linear path, right?

Yeah, that's what life is, right? It's not a linear path. So let me ask you something. I'm curious. What was it that brought you to the point, or let me even ask you more. When did success stop being enough and what broke first?

Well, for me, I think I reached the pinnacle of success in multiple industries and I completely left both those industries for different reasons. One of them was in the music industry and I helped to build the digital business for BMG and Sony BMG, you know, Pioneer, helped launch the iTunes Music Store, helped figure out all the early music subscription models, loved it in the early days. However, I reached a certain point working, I was working We had just merged, so I was working for Sony Music at the time where it just became very clear to me that the only continued path up would have nothing to do with what I did as far operationally and really everything to do with how I managed my superiors. Right? It just became about politics at that point.

Yeah.

And, and so for me, I just, I had zero interest in that. Like, I like to get stuff done, right? Like, that's, and so once it became clear, I'm like, okay, I've kind of reached my point now where I've kind of played out here. So I took a step away towards entrepreneurship at the, at the heights. I mean, I was run— I was one of the top digital music executives in North America at the time. And a lot of people were surprised, you know, that I would leave. Why is that? You know, a lot of people, it was funny though, Markus, a lot of people came to me and said, Keefe, you know, I've always wanted, I've had this idea, I've always wanted to pursue it. And, you know, you've, you left like, You decided to pursue, you know, your, your, your visions and your dreams. You know, tell me all the secrets. And I'm like, well, first of all, there's no secrets. Second of all, what you have to ask yourself before you try it is, are you willing to lose it all?

That is right. Are you willing to pay the price?

And mo— almost Every single person that I talked to was not willing to do that.

Yeah.

And they all stayed and were comfortable enough, yet miserable and unfulfilled because they didn't follow their dreams. But, and so that leads to the second time where I was in the cannabis industry. I was running, built from zero to a $68 million valuation. The largest media company in cannabis.

When was that?

That was in— so we launched in 2015. It was 2015 to 2019.

Okay.

And we were on the— my co-founders and I were on like the covers of magazines, you know, we were, you know, it was like, hey, Keev, congratulations, you made it. And that industry completely imploded in the back half of 2019. And my comp— my $68 million company went from that to zero very quickly. And so that was a very different experience.

Mm-hmm.

But a very important one because I'm a big believer in everything happens for— everything's a lesson, right? And so for me, I needed that lesson because if I had cashed out, then we wouldn't be talking right now, Markus, and I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing because I probably would've retired somewhere and really not been a huge benefit to society. Like I would've, like I, because I was in a different place then, you know, different sensibility. And having gone through that though, I then had a very, because then COVID hit and then I started my next company and I was not able to raise as much money and it was very challenging. And so what I became, what I became aware of over time was that, wait a minute, why am I striving so much for a dollar amount? Like, that's what I was just always, always taught. Like, what's your number, right? Like, that was something that you're— like, what's your—

What's your, your worth in the end, your value?

And I just started to realize is that You can't put a value. Like, my my value is on how happy am I? You know, how how much value am I adding to society? How great of a father am I? You know, how great of a family member? How great of a friend? I got like though like and so I started and this has happened over the course of. Quite a bit of time, but I became much less materialistic, much more focused on experiences. And as a result, on where I am now and what— and on the projects that I'm building, they're not driven through greed or driven through like, oh, this is— these are the numbers that I'm looking to hit. They're driven through, I'm serving, I'm serving, like, and I'm a couple of things. I'm only going to do things that are good for the world. I'm only going to work with people that I enjoy working with that are good people. And the money will come, you know, like, that'll be an amazing byproduct, right? It's—

Yeah, but let's stay here for a moment. What makes you say the money will come? It's not that I don't believe, get me right. I'm the devil's advocate right now. So you say, do what you do and love and what you do well, right? And serve, and the money will come. Because this is one of the old spiritual mantras. Do what you love and the money will come. Louise Hay, right? It's like the classic. So what makes you believe that— and you try the opposite— that not chasing the money will actually make the money come? Tell me a little bit more about that, please.

Well, it helps, it helps that I've got some real-world experience because I've had success. You know, I've, I've generated a lot of revenue in my career. So I know— so my passion right now is I'm I'm building out a venture studio and accelerator programs for wellness businesses. So I know that if I apply everything that I've learned to great businesses and incredible founders, we are going to be successful and we are gonna— and being successful in business means you're gonna be making money. So for me, it's just It's just the natural byproduct of being a business person, you know, and a business development person.

Let's talk for a moment the opposite. You know that many people strive to make money, and in order to make money, they're willing to do things. You're different. You do things because you know it's the right thing to do and you know it fulfills your why and the what for. So the money will follow. How would you change and what would change, Keith, if you would switch and say, I'm after the money? Because I kind of want to feel the different tension, different dynamic.

So, well, I've already experienced it. So I was after the money when I built the media company because that really Wasn't, it was an opportunistic play. It wasn't a passion play. And we were originally a sort of a more focused on the recreational cannabis market as a media company. And I just saw that as a big, as a big, you know, it was, I, we were there during what was called the green rush, you know, where it was just, things were just going, you know, crazy. Yeah. And I saw how that ended because you know what? It didn't, I didn't build something based on my core beliefs. And as a result, it didn't pay off for me. In fact, you could argue that I lost more money than I made in that industry because I invested my own money into a lot of these businesses that I created. in that industry. So I have chased the money and I know it's not for me. It hasn't worked out. And so really this is, so when I first started my career, it was in the music. I knew I wanted, my passion was music and I wasn't sure what that was gonna mean. And I just loved, I was living in New York City at the time and I just loved working in the music industry. And I actually had 3 jobs. I was— Wow. I was, I was working my day job working for a direct marketing company. It was called Columbia House, which was the mail order. I was managing bands on the side, and I was doing music supervision for films. And like, I didn't sleep. I was like going nonstop. And I loved it. Because it was like, I love music. And it was just so much fun for me. And eventually, that ended up leading me towards the path of Because I'm always focused on the what's next, I just naturally fell into the internet and digital music. And as a result, I just rose through the ranks really quickly and was able to have incredible financial success from a corporate standpoint. You know, I maxed out on my bonuses every year and, you know, lived a very comfortable life, you know, traveled business class, you know, and all those things. That happened more organically because it was like, it was a byproduct of my passion. And had I just continued to suck it up and just like stay in the music industry, I'm sure I could have figured that out and found a place that made sense for me and certainly would've been a much more comfortable last 20 years of my life, I'm sure.

It probably would have tainted your soul, huh?

Yeah, it wouldn't have gotten me to this point where I, you know, having done as much meditation as I've done, having done as much kind of seeking and really kind of going into the spiritual side of things a bit more, I have learned to recognize that I was brought here to do more than just sell music, you know. So I don't think there's any coincidences that I somehow, you know, ended up into wellness and healing because ultimately that's something that I can be passionate about again because it's fundamentally what is Like, you know, hey, like we as humans deserve to be healthy, you know? And quite frankly, there's a lot of arguments to be made that with the way that AI is moving and the way that technology is developing, that with people having so much more free time in their hands in the future, that health becomes the new wealth. Right. And so I feel that that's exactly where I'm, I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be right now is, is helping build the ecosystem for this next evolution of what health is going to be all about.

And you know what's really interesting? You mentioned a few ingredients. It's not just passion. that, you know, will lead to money in the end or to financial abundance again. It's knowing, pardon my French, but knowing your shit. And I believe that's where many people who are visionaries fail because they don't understand a dream plus passion is not enough to make it. into today's world. Because I was wondering, what will you bring up as the reason why you have this conviction it will pay out? It plays out, absolutely. But you know it will pay out because you have a blueprint which you followed, but now you're following it with a different attitude. Before, it was money. And now it's service. And I believe what we're talking about right now will be so helpful for so many people because I don't think these kind of conversations where we have a convergence between real world and spirituality, where we have business and a convergence of wellness. They are one in the end. This is not a rah-rah, woo-woo conversation we have. This is not a hardcore business conversation we have. This is helping someone to land in reality.

Well, it's funny you mentioned blueprint because what I call my ecosystem growth programs, the Wellness Blueprint. And I'm basically applying all of everything that I've learned for the last 30 years in, in, in business and now putting it and applying it towards, towards wellness. And, you know, and I, I, I define wellness quite broadly. It's really anything that, that's focused on improving, you know, not only body, but, you know, mind, body, and soul, right? All 3 of those, because they're all— if any one of those is out of whack, then it throws everything else off, right? And so, you know, so I've been working with everyone from, you know, longevity companies that are doing, have the latest technologies that are helping people with a lot of different things that are improving their ability to be, live healthier, like physical lives to working with some brain health companies that are helping, you know, for the neurological side to help with the, the, the mental aspect and then working with some more healing modalities that are a bit more spiritual in nature. And I am getting back to our very beginning of our conversation. I believe that this, what we're kind of entering into this next 60-year cycle, is a convergence of all these different things. Right. And it is the beginning of the next version of reality on this, on this planet. And that's why I'm very excited about it. Because I've been laying the foundation for this for many years now. And arguably, you could say I've been laying the foundation for my entire life and career, right? Mm-hmm. And so for me, they all make sense kind of being together, because they were always meant to be together. We have just not necessarily always seen it that way. And myself included, like, my ability to see everything kind of coming all together this way has only really developed over the last several years. And so when I think about how long I've been on this planet and how long my career's been, it's a relatively recent development. But I think the reason for that, Markus, is that I needed to go through everything that I went through before that, and I wouldn't have gone through it the same way if I had already kind of had this moment where I saw this convergence. And so as a result, I'm seeing this as being a really I'm choosing to focus on the positives and, and the, the world. It's, it's a scary place for a lot of people right now. It really is. And my biggest advice, and I am trying to learn myself, I've got a couple of apps I'm using, but do your best, best thing you can do for yourself. Stay off this as much as possible, especially social media. I

agree.

It is the worst. So I have a friend, Markus, who does a lot of coaching and consulting as well, and she works with a lot of really successful entrepreneurs, CEOs, and she's like, the single hardest thing is like getting these people off their phones because they say it's one thing to say that, you know, it's not good for you, but it's another thing to actually do it. But have you, have you done a detox? Have you done a digital detox before?

You see, the thing is, like, I wouldn't even know where my cell phone is.

Oh, that's amazing.

You're already there. I'm one of those. I'm one of those. I have an iPhone 13. iPhone 13. Think about that. In how much? Like iPhone 16, 17, 18 now? I don't know. I have an iPhone 13 mini, which literally fits into my pocket. I don't use Facebook. I even found an app that stops the entire feed from showing up. That's cool. It replaces it with a quote because I need to be connected with some people through Messenger because they don't have anything else, right?

Yeah, but it turns out it's hard to detox away, be disconnected, because then you lose contact, right, with people.

Yeah,

but that's amazing. So you are far ahead of most, uh, Markus, in that respect. And I've got an app, um, it's called— well, there's 2 apps that I've been using. One is called Minimalist and one is called Opal, and they help you They help, you know, one of the things that like most people don't recognize is that the phone itself, the interface with the icons is set up to be just very engaging. Like you're at, like you're showing up, you're like, oh, look at these like colorful buttons that I want to push. And I know that if I'm going to get that dopamine hit when I usually push this button and minimalist It turns into a completely black screen is your, is your front of your phone, right? So you don't see any of that stuff. And it is amazing how much less you go on your phone when that's the case.

In the beginning, that must be like a shocker, like you're going from paradise into hell. It's all dark.

It's, it's challenging, but it's like anything. It's like any new habit. And especially if it's a look, you ultimately have to make that decision that it's important enough for you to do this. I found it for me; it was important for my mental health, especially especially when the Epstein files came out. I was finding that it was taking me into some really dark places. I know it was important for me to understand. what was in them and to see what darkness was there. But I didn't need to be exposed to it every single day.

Exactly.

And so for me, it was like, okay, I need to just get rid of X, and which is where I was learning most of the things. And, and yeah, and just understand that it's, you know, for me to be someone that You know, is helping to guide others and to help them build their businesses. I've got to come with positive energy, you know, and because God knows how hard it is out there when you're trying to build a business, you know, and if someone's trying to help you, if you if that person is coming with a positive energy, then it's going to be that so much more helpful than. Negative vibes of any sort. And it's so amazing, as you know, Markus, just how whether you actively realize you're, you're coming from that perspective, people pick up on that energy just by the basis of just how you're interacting with them. And so a lot of people don't even realize that power that social media is having on them. Yeah. Where I realize that I don't get triggered as much. I like almost never yell at people anymore. Not that I was ever a big yeller, that's not my personality type, but, you know, like I don't get road rage anymore, which is so funny. You know, like, like I think the combination of meditation and, and not doing as much social media is like, Oh yeah, I realized how little importance it is.

It brings you into calm, literally.

Well, and it also just puts perspective on things where it's like, you know, this really isn't that important, you know, at the end of the day, that this person just cut me off and made me so that I'm gonna be, you know, 3 seconds later, You know, or something like, it's really not that important. You know, you

see what's interesting, what you just mentioned about the social media, people have become so reactionary. Did you notice that? It's almost like incident, reaction is here. And there's a, there's a video out there that says, look, when you and I were born, There was a, a, um, a skill which most people have lost. You know what this is? Critical thinking. And that has been lost thanks to social media consumption.

Yeah, well, just short attention span. Um, yeah, apps and everything. Yeah, like my, I, my son, um, has a really hard time reading books. I mean, because he's grown up with just short bursts of entertainment his whole entire life. Yeah. I mean, the human brain in future generations is going to behave very differently, right? Because we, you know, we as a species evolve over time and things that we don't need and use anymore are not passed along. And so that's pretty scary, right? That

it is

that, that part of the brain, the critical thinking part of the brain is going away over generations.

Makes you receptive for control.

It absolutely does.

That's the part I am afraid of for future generations to come.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because when you don't develop that anymore, And you don't even realize it. And that's the sad part. That's the sad part. You don't realize it.

Well, I'm holding out hope. That's why I'm holding out hope, my friend. Like, we've got—

Absolutely.

Good people like you and me. We have to continue going.

And we continue. We continue. So before I let you go, I have one final question for you. If someone feels overwhelmed right now, listening or watching, what would you want them to return to?

So I personally find, like, even if it's 5 minutes, just go to a quiet place and just take deep breaths. Like, just Return to silence if you can. If you can be, even if you have to put headphones on and have noise cancellation because you're in a noisy place. It is amazing. Also, follow your inner voice, you know, and in order to hear your inner voice, you need to be in those silent moments, right? So they all kind of work together here. But realize that, you know, better than most, you know, like you're, you're, when, when something's like, you feel that like, I should be doing this, then you should be doing that. Like, that's, you need to listen to yourself. And I think that's another Part of, I don't know, of people's sort of way of being that is also, it has kind of gone away, you know, particularly over the last couple of centuries. But it used to be like, that's all you had were your instincts, right? As humans. And look at how resilient we've been as a species, right? Yeah. And that's just from listening to, you know, our inner, our inner voices. So when you're overwhelmed, get some silence, take some deep breaths, and just listen to yourself.

Thank you so much for this conversation, Keith.

Thank you for having me, Markus. It was a pleasure.

Welcome. This was Remembering the Forgotten. As you move on from here, notice what may have been quietly remembered. Perhaps something set aside by trying to survive, perform, achieve, protect, or optimize. If something shifted for you, let it stay. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.