Nir Eyal interview with Dr. Mike Rucker

Hey everyone. Welcome to the near and Far podcast. I am thrilled to introduce you to a good friend of mine, Dr. Mike Rucker, who has just published a new book called the Fun Habit. Mike, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me, Nir. I'm looking forward to this.

My pleasure, my pleasure. So you've been working on this book for years. I remember we sat down several times and discussed the research that you were doing. And I would love for you to kind of share the basic thesis of the book and kind of what you've discovered over the years studying this topic around how to make a fun habit.

Yeah, so it's really twofold, I think. One, as an academic, I really studied the construct of autonomy in the workplace, you know, DC's work, and was fascinated about how lack of autonomy not only affects our psychological well being, but also clearly correlates to physiological outcomes. And so looking at that construct outside of work, that so many of us, because our lives have essentially been overprescribed with outside duties, that many of us aren't having fun. And it's clearly having interesting consequences. And so how do we course correct that? The other half of the book is more existential that I really leaned ON One professor, Dr. Iris Mouse in particular, but others that especially in the west, this over concern about our own happiness has been leading to interesting negative clinical outcomes. So it's kind of a one, two punch, one that, you know, how much toxic positivity has really impacted us and how to sort of undo that by living life more deliberately and then also by deliberate design. How can we take some time off the table for ourselves, you know, whether that's in the service of others, that we're at least enjoying it. And so, you know, oftentimes the framework I like to use is, you know, changing from I have to do to I get to do. Even if there are things that still need to happen, how can you organize them in a way that are somewhat pleasurable rather than just feeling so depleted. Right. That, you know, eventually it does lead to burnout and all these negative health outcomes that we're seeing.

As you did your research, what was the most controversial or thing that made you change your mind the most?

So the biggest, like illumination was a piece of research out of Harvard, MIT and Stanford called the hedonic flexibility principle. And so it's really looking at this interesting ideology that we believe we're pleasure seeking animals. Right. And so it was a huge sample size, 28,000 people, amazing data. Scientists using Csikszentmihalyi's time survey, where you essentially get asked at random times of the day what you're doing and how you feel about it. And so what it found is that people that are engaging in poor uses of leisure, right? In literature we call it passive leisure or escapism, like going out for drinks, things that you talk about, social media usage, not necessarily consuming entertainment, but consuming entertainment mindlessly. Folks that were in this negative loop, this downward spiral is the way I describe it, were the ones that showed up the next day depleted. Ultimately it grinds down on you and then it becomes perpetuating. You're more tired the next day, so you look to displace that discomfort in more negative ways and kind of, you know, until it leads to some sort of, you know, really bad outcome. But what was fascinating, again, because the idea, right, is if we seek out pleasure, we're going to want to seek out more pleasure, right? As the, the thought goes, that actually was found to be not true. So there's two amazing things that kind of happen when your fun cup is full, especially when you're engaging in fun through what we call active leisure, right? Things that are leading to betterment, like fun hobbies for us, writing or engaging in pro social behavior. Things that are really enriching. Not only do you show up the next day with the vigor and vitality to actually be more productive, so paradoxically, these folks that are grinding it out till 9pm are actually likely producing less good work. And these folks are actually showing up and being really productive in the time that they've time blocked for work. But the second thing is they're the ones that seek out the hard challenges. So they actually, whether that's at work or after work, within their leisure, they're the ones that might go crush it at kite surfing or go mountain climbing, or really engage in deliberate practice or in their work, look for harder challenges so that it leads to a trajectory of betterment rather than just kind of using our heuristics and the algorithmic sort of thinking to get through the day, because that's all we have. And so I found that really compelling, right? And then, you know, anecdotally, after doing a lot of interviews, that certainly was validated by the folks that I saw that were living a life that was sustainable rather than, you know, just feeling like life was passing them by.

So do you have like any changes that you've made since doing this line of research? What have you specifically done to change your own life?

Yeah, I think the most impactful is the transition ritual and so, especially in the area of knowledge work, you know, obviously always give a tip of the hat to your research here. The idea that there's multiple headwinds, right, with regards to knowledge work, we don't really know where the goalposts are. And so oftentimes our to do list can become endless unless we know where is that transition, you know, from work to our personal life and being deliberate about it, that can become problematic. And then also that some of these apps, you know, both email, things like Slack, Discord, they can be just as addictive as some of the apps that get villainized more, right? Like Instagram, there's still a variable reward component. If you see an email from a friend, like, what's in there? So having a clear transition ritual from my working life to my leisure life, sometimes it's as simple as just flipping my hat backwards, which kind of signifies to my kids, like, I'm here for you. You know, let's have some fun. You know, I. This is something that I took from someone else, but now sometimes I'm literally putting my phone in a fairway box so that, you know, it just doesn't even get a signal. And, you know, one, it's out of sight, out of mind. And those things, you know, right now because they're so mindful, like, I still kind of yearn for my phone. It will bring me back into that mindful state of, like, no, this time is preserved for leisure. Because I'm certainly still a work in progress myself. You know, I'm very driven. And so knowing that the utilizing leisure to be more productive the next day and also feel good about how you're spending your time is so important that I'm putting those things into practice for myself and acknowledging that it's not easy, right? I mean, you know, whether you want to call it the, you know, purest puritan work ethic, whether it's, you know, this ethical aversion to hedonism and thinking that if you are enjoying yourself, somehow you're not moral. You know, there are all of these headwinds, especially in the west, that stop us from really enjoying ourselves. Because, you know, oftentimes, you know, it can either be guilt, it can be feeling like you're not productive, you know. You know, both genders have interesting social norms that can contribute to this. You know, for women, it's that sense of duty. A lot of times, as a generalization, for men, it's because we've been bred, you know, through meritocracy, to believe, like, you know, time is money. Right. So if we're wasting our time, somehow we're devaluing ourselves, and each one is going to be unique to the individual, but there's certainly so many headwinds working against us.

Yeah, it reminds me. The transition ritual reminds me. One of my best memories growing up was that my family had this religious devotion to Friday night dinners that you had to be home for Friday night dinner. And it was part of this Jewish ritual. My family wasn't particularly spiritual, but we made sure that we had this, what we call Kabbalat Shabbat, which is the welcoming of the Sabbath. And you have a dinner and you say a few prayers and you light candles and you eat a special kind of bread called the challah. And that transition, that ceremony of, okay, the week is over, now comes the day of rest, was really beautiful. And it's interesting to see kind of how ancient wisdom. Right. This is something that's been done for thousands of years. And I'm sure Judaism is not the only religion that has that factor. And again, there's nothing spiritual about it. It's just the practice. And, you know, I'm sure you can make a secular version of that, and it sounds like you've done that as well. Are there any other transition rituals that you do that you might want to share?

Well, I think one that's important, and I've been trying to integrate, too, and it's adjacent science, so I'm not intimately, you know, like, I can speak to it, but I don't intimately understand it, but I think it's important. And that's the idea of how the different identities that sort of dictate how we operate within certain contexts can really bleed into others if you don't mindfully clear it. Right. And so I know this to some degree from my clinical background in psychology, because to be clear, I'm an organizational psychologist, but I studied with clinical psychologists, and they, you know, especially if you have an empathic slant, you need to sort of clear the palate, especially, let's say you just had a client that had a traumatic experience and you're helping them work through it. And then you need to work with the next client.

Right.

If you don't complete clear it completely, sort of clear that space for the next person, your thoughts from the previous session could bleed into it. It certainly appears to be true as well for us just in our personal lives. Right. And so if you're in a very demanding role, especially a leadership role, where it's more, you know, commanding and. And you have A different Persona than you want to have with your kids. Where can you find a space to sort of completely clear that previous identity and come in with your new set of heuristics and modus operandi for that particular environment, especially if you need to evolve them because they're in their infancy. Because so many of us, especially during the pandemic, there was really this blend of identities where it became quite problematic. And it's sticky, right? You can't really focus on a specific outcome, but it's clear that we really had to meld all of these things that might not be appropriate in certain situations. So to answer your question, I've tried to really be mindful, really clear that space of work through five minutes of meditation. I've heard others that are still in a commuting paradigm, go to a park, just sort of unpack anything cognitively that needs to be thought of, work related, take a deep breath and then walk into the home and say, I'm now here to be a part of this family rather than have some sort of heavy work problem still on my mind.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Something that I've done is to do certain work in different locations. So I tend to do email at my desk, but I don't really write here. I write in coffee shops because coffee shops for some reason make me feel creative. They make me feel like more of an author. And so even though I could very well write here, there is that transition. Maybe it is also kind of that, know, few minute walk to go to the coffee shop down the street and work from there. Gives me that transition period. Can you jump into, tell us more about one? How to form this fun habit and how do we differentiate what is real fun, good fun, from what just might be, you know, hedonic pleasure? How do we know the difference and how do we plan for one and not the other?

Yeah, so I think the to answer the second part first, it's really what leads to betterment, right. Do you feel good about it? And one good litmus test that I found is can you remember what you did? Right. So even if it's something like, I don't like to villainize watching entertainment, right. If it's with a partner and something that you are really into. Like, I remember we used to have lost parties back when I was still in the East Bay of California and we would unpack the philosophy of the show, right. And like, I can remember those nights because I really enjoyed the environment I was in, the people I was with and the activity I was doing right. So does it lead to a rich encoding of memories? Because that's one of the arguments I make in the book. We know when you've habituated your behavior and you're not really enjoying it. The brain understands it's not important. Right. And so you're not storing these memories that you can look back on, which creates an amount of resilience, Right. And also makes you look back and it helps dilate time so, you know, you don't feel like life is, is moving you forward. So that's one good way to suggest, like, am I using my time in a way that at least seems important to me? Oftentimes you want it to lead to some level of mastery. So I tend to engage in, again, what we call active leisure, things that lead to betterment. So is this something that I'm enjoying, but that also is contributing to either the greater good or the good of myself? Right. So is it moving me forward? But then intermittently, you know, if I have a few drinks with, you know, we have a mutual friend, Micah, or whatnot, I'm not going to beat myself up over it. Right. I still think those things should be interwoven as long as they're not detrimental to your health or mental well being. Regarding the first part of your question, to habituate it, I mean, that's fairly easy lift, right? It's essentially, you don't want to add just having more fun to your to do list. I think that's essentially another facet of toxic positivity. But can you look at the rhythms of your life to potentially turn down the levers of things that you don't enjoy? Right? Which is often fairly easy at first blush, everyone's like, I don't know, I live a busy life. But nine times out of 10, if you do look back at your 168 hours, it's easy to identify pockets where you really are just displacing discomfort. And so start there and then integrate two or three hours back into that 168 of things that you really enjoy doing, and then do it for two to three weeks. Right? Because again, oftentimes, especially someone's latching on to an old hobby or something that brought them joy, you know, that initial, like, you know, let's say it's playing guitar, right? Like, I used to be so good and now I suck. Like, is this really going to be fun? And so giving at least two or three weeks and then being a little bit self aware, like, check in, are these things that are kind of leading to that hedonic flexibility principle the next day, am I showing up better? Am I glad? Was that a good use of my time? And am I starting to reorganize, you know, this spiral and an upward momentum rather than a downward momentum, you know, if not, you know, use curiosity and variability, two great tools of having fun, right, to maybe try other things. You know, low hanging fruit is pro social behavior. Reconnecting with friends, you know, having coffee, you know, whatever it is, right, but just play with it, but take some time off the table, right? And this is really a prescription mostly for people that have made their lives too busy, right? Either engaging in admin work or again, you know, are so burnt out that they're displacing discomfort in negative ways. I'm, you know, I always want to clarify that I'm not prescribing a life of whimsy and saying quit your job and go to every burning man that you can. Right? But it's clear that so many of us are so burnt out because we're not enjoying life at all. I think, you know, you know, from an academic standpoint, who I've studied the most is physicians. And you know, just this year is the worst year for them with regards to burnout. So it's an all time high at 63%. And they're just one of many vocations, right, where they're, they're so overworked that when their work life is done, they don't even have the energy to enjoy themselves. So we're sort of in a state right now where a radical course corrective is needed.

Do you think this is a uniquely American problem and a uniquely, a unique problem for this, this phase of history, or is it something that's been a.

Problem for a long time? I think it's got unique aspects for sure. So let's start with the fact that the US is the second to last with regards to providing leisure, right? We give on average 10 days off per year for one year's worth of work. There's only one country in the last, Micronesia at 9.

Okay. At least we're not the worst. Thank you, Micronesia.

So we're second to last place. But what's even more telling is that even though we're in such dire straits there, only 50% of Americans are even taking that time. Right? And so I think that's just one micro example of a much broader problem. And then, you know, again, it's as complex as obesity, right? You know, everyone kind of picks their lane with obesity. Is it plate size Is it lack of activity? Is it urban design? I think the same things at play here. But another big issue is the modern era. Right. They call it the sandwich generation because for the first time ever, we're having our kids a lot later in life and our adult parents are living a lot longer. So where we used to have backup from our parents, they could help out with child rearing and things of that nature. We're now having to take care of our kids and also our aging parents. And so we have a set of duties that were never on our plate in previous generations, as a generality. And then all of the things that you already know about knowledge work. Right. I mean, we're working harder than ever, you know, I know you know this as well, but there are certain headwinds in certain vocations. It looks like the gig economy, you know, most of the major companies have used technology to be able to extrapolate out more work from workers for less pay and kind of trick them into working harder. And I think that's true in knowledge work to some degree as well. When you look at my field of organizational psychology, a lot of consultants are, how do we increase productivity while keeping wages low? And so this is more of a theory, but I do have some hope that part of the great resignation is people, you know, we all got prescribed Simon Sinek's why. Right. We thought about that, you know, ad nauseam. But I don't think enough of us are asking the what. What are we giving away, you know, why we see these issues of parody and other things in the modern era where there's not a fair exchange of value and people are sort of waking up, especially after the pandemic of, you know, is. Is. Is life fair in this manner? And should I be doing things outside of my vocation? So there's a lot there. And it's likely not one thing. It's a complex issue. But to answer your question, absolutely, it's clear that they're modern issues that other folks in different eras didn't have the same.

Yeah. Do you think everyone can afford to have fun? I mean, if you are someone who's working two jobs and you're sandwiched between kids and parents, and are there ways to insert fun even when you have a super hectic schedule?

Yeah, I think so. So there's certainly always going to be an aspect of privilege to this narrative. Right. So I always want to make, you know, I think we know, and this is from rich data sets that if you're below the poverty line, you know, Whether you want to call it at the bottom of Maslow's triangle or whatnot, there are certain things that you need to think about before you think about fun. So this is certainly a higher need. I never tried to, you know, sort of skirt that issue. Right. But I think when you look at who is having the most, quote unquote fun, a lot of times it's in lower socioeconomic classes because, you know, this outcome focus on productivity and happiness, for whatever reason, whether that's social norms or because it's been relinquished, is not there. And they can really engage in pro social behavior with their families and all of these things that enrich our lives. That for, you know, the folks that are grinding out on the weekends because they're trying to get that next promotion don't have. Right. And so again, to answer your question, there's a lot of complexity there, but it's clear that you can have fun, you know, across the spectrum. And that's backed up by data. The person that needs, you know, like I was talking with a colleague of mine where they do work with a lot of immigrants where their whole life is dedicated to having two vocations so they can send money home, you know, for their family, because their whole sole duty is to provide financial means for, you know, their family back home. I think they're going to be those, you know, situations where. Should we talk about fun? No, I think we should figure out, you know, how do we deal with global parity so that there are going to be outliers where I want to be really careful. Because yes, there is, you know, a sliver of privilege when we have these conversations. Right.

But are there ways to integrate fun into our work lives as well?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's funny, you know, Clay Whitehead just had passed along an interesting study about social contagion. And you know, essentially I'm making a big inference here. I'll send it along to you if you want to put in the show notes because it's amazing. I think you'll love it. The idea of, you know, there is a pretty straight line with regards to companies that aren't fun and how that can be detrimental, you know, with regards to company culture. So, you know, at the leadership level, I think, yeah, there are ways to organize it that aren't forced fun. It really requires first creating a level of psychological safety so that people can have input and then co creating what that looks like because, you know, everyone has different tastes. Right. And so it does become somewhat difficult. But when folks do that hard work and sort of avoid forced fun, as it were, and co create things that are really enjoyable for the entire group. You see all sorts of positive benefits with regards to the individual. Again, what I sort of prescribe in the book is reclaiming that autonomy that you do have. Right. And so if you can't necessarily organize your life in a way that's fun at work, or, sorry, create, you know, fun things in that regard, how can you take back your break? You know, there was a wonderful piece just recently about again, you know, a western problem, but how we're so busy that people are not connecting with their partner. And I'll send that your way too, I think you'd love it. And so people are now having their quote unquote date nights during lunch because, you know, work sometimes isn't fun. And so they're having this fun break in the middle of the day, reconnecting with their partner and then going back to work, you know, again, energized. Right. So it's a one, two punch again, you know, pro social behavior with your partner and strengthening that connection and then having a real break from work. Because what I did find, and there's great studies to back this up, is that. And for any leaders listening, what's a shame is the boss that thinks that they're having fun by taking out their employee to a fun lunch. They think that that's creating a fun environment. But most employees, you know, the perception there is it's just an extension of work. So essentially you've made that employee work now nine hours. And that's not fun to say out loud, but it's, you know, one of those inconvenient truths. Yeah, yeah.

So how, if you are a manager or if you work in a company that is instituting too much mandatory fun that nobody's actually enjoying, what's the difference between real fun at work that a company can facilitate versus the cringeworthy mandatory fund that nobody likes?

Yeah, again, so the first step obviously is the hardest and that is how do you create the psychological safety so your employees feel like they can tell you, you know what, I'm an alcoholic, I don't want to go out to happy hour. As a micro example of that, how can you create the psychological safety where people aren't going to just abide to what you say because they want to be a good employee, but rather listen and say what would make your life here, you know, more pleasurable so that you're actually enjoying the things that you're doing and getting that feedback so you can Create it. Because there's not one prescription, right? If I tell you what to do, all of a sudden that skirts the empathy that you should have for your employees. Once you do that, then also, and you know, this is some wisdom that I picked up from you, quite frankly, to give another tip of the hat is how do you allow them the space to be an anthropologist so they can potentially look at the work they're doing and see is there any way to recreate it in a way that is more fun? Because a lot of times, and this is something that's hard to actualize unless you actually get into it and you're like, wait, there's no other way to do this. Is, is that true? You know, and so sometimes, you know, a particular problem can be approached in another way that becomes more, you know, fun for that employee. Or you can role switch, right? Like, you know, you, you talk openly to your cohorts and you're like, wait, you'd have a lot more fun actually building the deck and you'd have a lot more fun researching. I'm so sorry. Let's reorganize this so that everyone's enjoying what they do more. But it really takes that upfront work and being a little bit premeditated about it instead of prescriptive.

It sounds like it comes back to agency, autonomy and control from a psychological well being perspective. That's kind of the prescription for what's necessary. More than, you know, hey, we're all having fun necessarily. It's more of how can we, how can we have a say in what we do together versus being prescribed? Am I on the right track here?

Yeah. And one other thing I'd like to add. I just had an amazing conversation with a gentleman by the name of Colin west that I talk about in the book because he's looked a lot at how people spend their time, especially at work. And the same thing that I advocate for in your personal life. How do you find these pockets of things that you could potentially eliminate or change the direction of it so that it is more fun? You can do that in work as well, but it becomes much harder at work, and maybe you've seen this too, where when we have these algorithms of things that have to get done, we never take away, right. A lot of the quote unquote, unfun stuff has really just is essentially a relic instruction of the past that really doesn't need to be done anymore. So a way to create the space so that more fun can thrive is looking at the way you go about your work and is there anything that you can take out? Right. That's really just essentially something that's always been done that way. So you're still doing it, but doesn't contribute, you know, any value. Take that away so you can start to play with elements that make the team more excited about what they do.

Awesome. Any additional questions? You wish I would have asked that? I didn't. No.

I think we touched it. I meant, I know we both like product design as well. I think another interesting aspect of all of this is looking at hedonic tone with regards to behavioral design. I think for folks that are trying to make things more sticky, we often undervalue whether you want to call it System 1, System 2, or whatnot. Things that really do attract folks to the habit you're trying to create or the script that you're trying to get them to engage in. If you can look at things in a playful way, either in your own life or whether you're designing something for others, it really can be a valuable tool. So sort of celebrating that and trying to make life more fun because, again, the context of what we've just talked about, it's clear we're heading in the wrong direction in that regard. And so getting people to kind of enjoy the things that they're doing more, I think is worth the effort.

Absolutely. That's a great place to end it. Thank you so much. Mike Rucker, PhD. Thank you so much for being with us. And thank you all for listening to the near and Far Podcast. We'll see you next time.