A Rock and a Plan - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode # 005

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be.

Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy.

Today's guest is Sharon Meen. Sharon is a QuickBooks Certified ProAdvisor, member of the Ohio Society of Certified Public Accountants. She has proven expertise in driving efficiency and productive— productivity through evaluation of financial management systems and implementation of process improvements. She's a fractional integrator, a chief operating officer at Entrepreneurial Advisor Institute, and a lot more. Welcome, Sharon. Glad to have you here.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Yeah, it's great. Well, I'm excited to have you. And I love our first question because it gets right into some of the opportunities that you and I and other fractional professionals see in the C-suite. So what is the one or two opportunities that you see when you're working with clients at the C-suite level that they may or may not be aware of? From your perspective, what is one opportunity they might be missing out on?

Yeah, I think the big opportunity is just the people aspect. And there's a, you know, a great number of people resigning and it might be a great opportunity for people to bulk up their org chart or accountability chart, as we say in EOS, to maybe get some people that they have been looking for or would kind of move the needle for the corporation or firm to,, you know, kind of get better and to grow and for some strategy into that. And also to make sure that, you know, your accountability chart, the people that you have there are in the right seats and they're the right people. Because, you know, this might be an opportunity to either move someone to a different seat and replace that person with, you know, another person, or, you know, kind of help them out to see that they should be somewhere else, because obviously there's opportunities right now so that you're not kind of leaving people high and dry if like it just doesn't work out with your firm, which I know is a difficult adult topic. But I see that this is a good opportunity for people to really shore up the, the people that they're working with and for and make sure that they're, they're on the, you know, the right page and the same, you know, right people in the right seats.

Yeah. So I hear you talking a lot of EOS traction there. Yes. Right people, right seat. We'll get into that in a second. But first, let's talk about the great resignation that's going on. How have you seen How have you been impacted by it yourself, and how have you seen other, other clients be impacted by it?

I mean, fortunately, I haven't seen too much of it personally, but I do know that there's a lot of movement out there. And when people are trying to hire, there just does seem to be, you know, a more amount of candidates, more people that are coming in. So it seems like it's— there's a lot of movement where, you know, some Some years you could throw a job opportunity out there and nobody would pick it up or you didn't get a lot of responses, but it just seems like there's a lot of momentum for people to shift into different things, but I really haven't seen anything yet too negatively other than a lot of the wages are going up, salaries, than maybe we were accustomed to. Previously. But other than that, I think, you know, the, the amount of candidates out there, it's pretty, it's a pretty good number.

Yeah.

And do you see those candidates being segmented in different levels, hourly versus salary versus even C-level leadership? You see some movement there at all different levels of type of employee?

I really do. I think that, you know, you know, people are kind of taking stock of where they are and what they want to do. And so I do see movement movement in all levels of, you know, people just trying to perhaps move to something that is a better fit for them than, you know, where they have been previously. And I think it kind of like opened people's eyes to new opportunities and, and kind of like swinging for the fences for what they really wanted to do.

Yeah. And so how can companies really embrace that? Is it as an integrator, EOS implementer, someone who's follows EOS quite a bit. I understand that you've got the org charts and the right people, right seat, but practically speaking, how does a company or a business owner think about seizing this opportunity right now?

I think, you know, it comes down to the org chart or the accountability chart to make sure that you kind of audit, um, who is in all of the seats and, um, if they actually, you know, get it, want it, and have capacity to do it is what we say. It's a GWC. And they want to make sure that, you know, they're utilizing everyone to their best abilities and their, and their best skill sets. I mean, putting somebody who's not detail-oriented in a very detail-oriented position is, you know, a recipe for disaster and failure. So maybe that person could be helpful in other areas. And I think this is an opportunity for people to kind of reevaluate and then go out and get somebody that, you know, maybe wouldn't have been available or wouldn't have looked at, you know, them as a company, making it attractive. To work there.

So I think the great resignation is a symptom of people just being dissatisfied in general, historically with work and wanting to pursue their passion or their happiness areas. And it's now easier than ever to do that with the virtual workforce and remote workforce. But what I just heard you say was interesting. It might be an opportunity just to take advantage of maybe that dissatisfaction internally. Like they don't have to— someone doesn't have to leave their company maybe to change their role, right?

Oh, no. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I mean, that's one of the first things you try to do is try to move them to something that better suits their skill set. They could be a right person, meaning, hey, they're a great individual. I like Joe. He's a good guy, but he's not detail-oriented. And it's like in my business, it's AP work. And it's like he keeps making some mistakes, but maybe he'd be better off auditing something on a one-off or getting you know, diving into, you know, the being at a higher level of things than actually inputting something. So I think that that's, you know, taking stock of people. You can do like a delegate and elevate exercise, which puts, you know, things that you like to do, things that you are good at but don't like to do, kind of puts them in different quadrants. It's one of the EOS tools. And so like using something like that, you could say, oh well, you know, Joe really likes to do this So maybe we need help in our marketing department. Um, maybe he'd be a better fit over there than when we hired him in to do an AP clerk.

Yeah, that makes sense. Um, and is that an integrator's job to have those discussions, make those decisions, looking at that, that org chart, or is that a CEO or visionary's job to be doing some of that work?

I think it's an integrator's job to bring up the conversation. I think that's what I see my role is, is that I don't lead people. I don't make decisions for people. And I don't, you know, I tell them what I see, and I'm very candid about that. But I don't, you know, I'm not making the hard and fast decisions and rules. I think that has to come as a, you know, as a group effort with maybe the CEO, the visionary, you know, me, you know, a couple of the key leadership team members to kind of really hash it out.

So for those that aren't familiar with EOS Traction, integrators How would you explain it? Like a chief operating officer, general manager, operations manager? What, what would you use to describe an integrator for non-EOS folks?

So how I describe it is they're the people that get stuff done. So the visionary comes up with, you know, a lofty goal, a thing to pursue, something to look into, and, you know, they hand it off to the integrator to chunk it out and figure it out, the what, how it needs to be done, and who's gonna— and who really is responsible for it. So, um, you know, it's assigning the who to something that, you know, we have decided because, you know, we, the visionary has ideas, but we have to decide as a leadership team that that's what we want to do. And then it's part of the integrator's responsibility to make sure that people are held accountable for getting those things done that we have determined are, is the best direction for the company.

So how is that done fractionally and not with a full-time person?

Right. So, I mean, it can be done with a full-time person. You can find someone in your organization that just, you know, really gets it. They, they like holding people accountable. Um, you know, EOS is not a revolutionary idea in the fact that people have been integrators for decades without knowing that they were an integrator. I mean, they're just the CEOs of the company that, you know, really know how to get things done and hold people accountable and, and that kind of thing. So that's always the first step. But if you really don't have anyone in the company that really has the capacity to do it or wants to do it, then that's when you look for somebody to do it fractionally. And when I come in, I kind of, you know, work with the leadership team, manage the meetings, manage, you know, the accountability of the team members to getting things done, holding weekly meetings with the leadership team. To discuss their goals and rocks. They're, you know, if we've gotten our to-dos done for the previous week, and then we go over, you know, any issues that have come up during the week that we need to address at the leadership team.

Yeah, that's interesting. You've got, as a fractional, your role, particularly a fractional integrator or COO, you're the boss now. And in my role and our company's role as fractional CMOs, we come in and lead a department but not the entire organization, right? How easily do, or do people accept you, uh, when you come in as a fractional integrator that's not full-time and you're trying to direct and tell full-time leadership team members what to do and hold them accountable?

That's got to be a challenge.

It's, it's a, it's a good challenge. I like, you know, I like to work with people, and so I, I think Working one-on-one, you know, directly from the start, having, you know, some weekly, biweekly, monthly meetings with, you know, everyone on the leadership team to see how I can help them, how I can assist them, that I'm here, you know, to help and not to just, you know, bark orders at people or, you know, make sure or hold their feet to the fire. It's more of a collaborative issue. If something isn't getting done, it's more like, well, how can we help you get it done? Or what would you need? What resources would you need to be able to get this done? Not just telling people, oh, you should have had that done and why didn't you, but giving them the tools to complete what they were held accountable for. So I think the first thing that I try to do is just help. I lead with, how can I help you? What can we do for you? And then I think that that builds trust. And then we eventually get to a place where we're holding leadership meetings that are very candid and fluid. We have some nice discourse with people agreeing, not agreeing, but getting to a good resolution.

So who's usually bringing you in? Is it a board? Is it a team that recognizes a need for some support and infrastructure? Is it a visionary owner that just doesn't— is trying to exit that role, him or herself? Or all of the above?

Yeah. I mean, typically it is the visionary because what the visionary will try to do is try to hold both seats a lot of times on their own. And so once they realize that the better purpose, their best use is to be a visionary, and that really everything about being an integrator is kind of contradictory to visionary attributes. I mean, there are very few visionaries that can be both. There are some, but there again, that's a tough load to have. And I think in meeting situations, especially like when we do, you know, our weekly L10 meetings. I think it does, it helps to have somebody else there besides the visionary holding both seats because it tends to be very visionary heavy and people just want to please the visionary, the CEO, and they don't, you know, they'll just go along with things because they're like, well, I mean, he's the owner, you know, I should, I should go along with that. So I think it, I think when they see that fact that they're not getting the traction that they would like to get, I think they try to bring somebody in. And then I've also gotten, you know, if there's an implementer involved in their EOS process, they pretty much, you know, they say, hey, you're going to need an integrator. And if it isn't someone in the company, or perhaps somebody in the company has tried to be the integrator, You know, a lot of times they're just like, oh, well, you know, Frank looks like he's good with, you know, having meetings and agendas. We'll have him be the integrator. If he doesn't really want to or have the capacity to do it, he's not going to be able to, and it's not— you're not going to get the full benefit of EOS and implementing that.

Yeah. Do you work with non-EOS companies, people that don't have any strategic operating system or a different one?

Absolutely, yes. I work with, you know, companies of all different, you know, types. It doesn't have to be EOS. I think a lot of the— just the strategic planning of it are, you know, are really universal, and you don't have to do a full-blown implementation. Some, some companies are too small. I mean, quite frankly, you need a nice leadership team to really roll out EOS in its proper form. So if you just want to kind of instill the values of those kinds of things with having maybe a smaller team or you know, just a solopreneur kind of thing, then you definitely, you know, modify it however it works for them.

Yeah. So how did you get into this role of a fractional integrator? Can you share that story?

Yes.

So I work at Redmond Accounting as their COO and was going to an accounting conference. And someone there was talking about the book Traction. By Gino Wickman and didn't mention EOS, but mentioned the things that he was instituting in his firm and how, you know, it was really beneficial. And so I brought it to our leadership team at Redmond Accounting and said, hey, I think this is something we should do.

And it's, you know, that's one of those things in life, right?

You, you like find something and then like you see 3 other, you talk to somebody else and they're like, oh yeah, I'm doing it. And, oh, I did it already. And so it kind of like confirms that, hey, this is probably what I should be doing too. So we implemented it at the accounting firm, and then I really liked it.

I was obviously the, you know, natural integrator because I just really, really liked it. And I just thought, well, we should roll this out to our clients as well, not just us. So We asked a few of our clients and, you know, they were game. So we helped them implement EOS. I was a fractional integrator and they had an implementer that they were using.

And so then I just thought, well, not everyone has that opportunity to have an integrator in-house or, you know, is one of our clients. So I kind of rolled that out last year and have been taking some fractional clients on as well.

Yeah, that's great. Now, do your fractional clients need to also be clients of your law firm? I mean, your accounting firm?

Or no, no, there's— yeah, so I'm doing this separate from the accounting firm.

Yeah. So do you like the fractional integrator role more than the accounting role?

I've been a CPA for 30+ years. So it's, yeah, it's nice to, you know, kind of step out of it a little bit and, you know, just be the integrator. One of my favorite things is when you know, we're going around the leadership table and there's a CFO or controller that's holding the financial seat. And, you know, when they ask for numbers, they go to them instead. I mean, I know the numbers and I'm, you know, helpful with them, but I like that someone's responsible for the accumulation of the numbers and, you know, presenting them.

Yeah, I think it'd be hard to, you know, bite your tongue sometimes, I suppose. Yes. Being so attuned to the numbers. How do you— do you feel like that gives you an edge as an integrator, having that background?

I think it does, because a lot of the groundwork for EOS is financial. I mean, you— they want you to come up with a 1-year plan and a 3-year plan and a 5-year plan. And a lot of times, you know, companies don't have any basis in that. They, you know, just run in their numbers. They don't have they do a tax return, they don't have any forecasts or budgeting or anything in place. So it's hard when an implementer sits down and says, okay, well, what, what do you think our 3-year goal is? And they're like, I have no idea. I mean, we just, you know, this is what we've done this year and last year, and we have no idea. So I think when you have somebody like I am, because, you know, as an implementer, you don't have the kind of time. You usually do like, you know, a day meeting So you don't have time to go through their financials. So that's where I think it helps if I can step in and say, okay, you know, this is kind of leading them what they need to do and the kind of the process. I think EOS is sometimes a little high level, and it doesn't tell you the how to do it. For example, even in the marketing aspect of it, they'll say, you know, what are your 3 uniques, or what's your ideal client or demographic, your psychograph? Well, those are all things that, you know, you do as a marketing person, but they might not have any marketing help at all, so they're not going to have any idea how to do that.

Yeah, definitely. It's a great framework, but it falls short in some of the depth.

Correct.

Yes.

It's almost like, yeah, you're supposed to have additional help. It's like the implementer, he's going to come in, he's going to tell you how to implement EOS. But then if you really want to do it correctly, you're not going to just listen to your implementer who tells you maybe what your 3 key uniques are. Because how would they know, really? You need someone with some experience.

Yeah, and our big deal is I love EOS. I like the framework they give for thinking about marketing. It does simplify it for a business owner that you gotta— who's your audience and how can you be unique and different to that audience? But it still works around the idea of let's figure that out together in a boardroom with all the owners who are very insulated from real-world customer-client conversations. So what we do, and I recommend all business owners do this, is actually go out and talk to your customers, do the buyer interviews, find out, you know, what, what really the problems they're having that you're solving, and what they really are looking for from a decision criteria. So you can understand how you can differentiate solving their problems. Having those conversations with the actual clients are so important and valuable. As, as a marketer, I'll put my marketing hat on just for a moment there. Uh, you just— that doesn't happen naturally in EOS, um, and really in any strategic planning process.

No, no, because it again takes a level of expertise that one person that you were gonna, you know, outsource this to wouldn't have. Um, and that's a, that's a great example of getting out there and asking your clients what they want instead of, you know, y'all sit at a table and say, this is what we think we're offering. Like, well, that's not really why they're going with you or why, you know, they've picked you. And it would be a great marketing angle to use that instead.

So if I, if, if I had a company that needed help with evaluating my seats right now with, and try to take advantage of this opportunity that, that is the great resignation, what would be your approach? You get engaged, not, and just fictionally, it's my company. Do you have a process you follow, kind of a standard procedure, or You kind of make it up as you go, or walk me through your steps of doing this work.

Yeah, so definitely there's a process for everything. That's also a big part of EOS is, you know, having a process and being able to replicate it because that's the best way to do things. Um, but, you know, starting off with looking at, you know, your org chart, if you will, if you have something like that. And then when we go through it, you know, really evaluating all the people that are on it, And then underneath each person, you put, you know, their 3 to 5 things that they do in that role that are the most important. And that's a real telling way of figuring out if one person has got everything in the company because, you know, they're, um, they're, you know, they, they're the one, one manager, and then there's 20 direct reports, and then the rest of, you know, um, so, but they're also doing work.. So that's a good way to kind of balance out what your org chart actually looks like, your accountability chart, but then also, you know, making sure that those people are, are really accountable. So, you know, coming up with, okay, you know, they're accountable for the marketing. So what does that look like? What does that mean? Um, you know, what, what metrics might you use to make sure that, that it's getting done? Um, so that's the kinds of things that, you know, discussions that we would have.. And then, you know, kind of revamping it as we're going along. And then from there, you decide if those people are in the right seats, if they're the right people, and what other seats might you need, especially given the, you know, if you can get some talent out there, what would you, what would you want? Maybe a business development person that you never thought, you know, you could get or would be available. Maybe that's something that you want to add to your, or, you know, your accountability chart. And then when you're having the right people, right seat questions, then going through and doing a roadmap, because then you want to say, okay, well, let's give this person 90 days. And in the 90 days, we're going to meet with them. We're going to tell them, you know, this is what we need from them, or we're going to, you know, push them off to a different department or a different role. But we give that a finite number of time as well in a process so that everyone feels like you know, they were given an opportunity to either, you know, stay in the role that they were or move to something else in the company, or, you know, worst case, like, you know, it, it honestly is very magical in the fact that if you do try to work with somebody for 90 days, they usually figure it out and they will kind of almost move on on their own without you having to do much because they realize that, yeah, maybe this isn't a good fit for them. I think it's being kind to them as well because there's a place for everybody. It's not necessarily here.

It's better for them to be somewhere else.

Yeah, for sure. Then how do you assess individuals internally and then new potential hires? You recommend going through the testing, the DISC assessments or the Culture Index or the Kolbe's or Or is it a series of interviews? Do you have a process that you follow there that you recommend?

Yeah, we like to use Culture Index when we're evaluating, and that's just so that we can figure out what's the best use of, you know, for that person, and so that they— we can make sure that that is, you know, somebody that would fit in that role. And then also, you know, we— part of EOS is you come up with core values. So listing out the core values in an interview process and making sure that, you know, hey, can you give me— this is our one of our core values— can you give me an example of how you think maybe you've accomplished that in a prior experience that you've had at work? And letting them know upfront how important those are and how we really hold ourselves accountable as well to those so that, you know, they know that that's something that we're going to be looking for. And that, you know, we're part of EOS and, or, you know, at least the core values and the mission statement of the company so that, you know, they also are interviewing the company as, as well as we are interviewing them to make sure it's a right fit for them.

Because if they don't really want to do any of the core values or they're really not, you know, they don't think customers should come first or something like of that nature, then, you know, they'll probably, you know, see themselves to another opportunity.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like almost a lot of HR work in this integrator role that you do. Do you work? How do you collaborate with existing HR team members? Or do you bring in vendor partners? How does— how do you not wear like 5 hats by the time you're in the seat long enough as a fractional?

Yes. So that's a very good question. So I just finished a good book book by Dan Sullivan, That's the Who, Not the How. So when things come up like that, that is the first thing I think of, is that I don't want to take on this responsibility. How can I find someone who is good at it?

And, you know, either way, you know, get another fractional person in there, a coach, a consultant, something of that nature. Or do— is this something that we need to, you know, fill on our accountability chart. And it is a, you know, the people aspect is a big component of any organization, um, you know, so it, it does take up a lot of time, um, you know, a lot of issues in our L10 meetings, our quarterly meetings, our annual meetings are of people, you know, and you know what we need to do.

Yeah.

What else does an integrator do besides make sure the right people in the right seats?

So one of the big things the Integrator does is work with a Visionary. And I think we have, like, a same-page meeting is what it's called, either weekly or monthly depending on the cadence that, you know, the Visionary wants. But it's to make sure that, you know, I'm being candid with the Visionary. You know, he's or she is coming up with ideas, and, you know, just seeing what— telling them what I see making sure that when we go to a leadership meeting or an annual or quarterly meeting, that we're on the same page and that, you know, we know what is best for the firm and that we can speak about any issues that we may have between us. But I really do think that it helps the visionary a lot because sometimes they don't have people to bounce ideas off of, or they don't have people that will tell them, Yeah, you know, what I like to do is we have issues and we have rocks for the quarter, but sometimes an integrator or a visionary will come in and they'll say, well, we should implement Salesforce this quarter. Let's do it. And it's like, okay, well, that's a nice idea, but we already have all these other things that we want to do. Maybe we could park it in long-term issues, and then when we come up for our quarterly meeting, maybe that that's something we want to look at. And I think that that's really beneficial because a lot of times, you know, the leadership team would just say, oh, that's a great idea, you know, and let's just move off of all the other things that we were doing that we all agreed were the best things to do for the quarter to hit our revenue goals or hit our, you know, quarterly goals of some sort. So I think that that is a big role of the integrator is to say, hey, just, you know, put up a flag, Let's, you know, let's talk this out. Is this really something we need to do this quarter, or is it really something that we could kind of wait on? And I think when you park it somewhere, I think they get a sense that, hey, you know, that's— it's going to be looked at.

It's not going to be forgotten. Yeah, I am— I've been described as a visionary in my own company and through the assessments, so I get the visionary side of things. I don't get the integrator side of things very well, but I do know how important it is to have that same page conversation and be— and make sure that you're, you're having a unified front when you're working with your team and trying to execute the plan. Is that a difficult thing to do as a fractional? Because you're not in the office every day, you're not around all the time, you're a fractional integrator by definition, you've got multiple clients that you're supporting in your role. How do you intentionally make sure that same page is happening or the conversations are happening, happening enough so you guys can stay on the same page?

Yeah, I think I get kind of a sense. I mean, I definitely schedule them out ahead of time, but I think I also get a sense of, you know, if we're going through an L10 meeting and it just doesn't seem seem to be firing on all cylinders. It seems that maybe the visionary is frustrated or the team's frustrated with the visionary. So then it's like, okay, let's call a timeout and schedule a 15, you know, half-hour conversation. And what we like to do, I use an app called 90.io. And what's great about that, and I don't make any money from it, so, you know, I just think it's a great product. But What you can do is you can put issues as you're going along in the week. And so a lot of times my visionary will start adding the things that he's frustrated about or things that he needs to bounce some ideas off of. So it's a good opportunity when I see like, okay, we've gotten a buildup of things that are going on in the same page, meeting issues, then maybe we should schedule something so we can kind of hash these out. But as a fractional, it is a fine line to, you're not available all the time. But I think in large part, you know, if you can work around it and make sure that you're giving everyone the time that they need, I think it works out pretty well.

Yeah. So how does an organization know if they need an integrator or fractional integrator? What would be some of the symptoms or problems they were having?

So I would say if they're really trying to, like I said, get off the ground and, and get some goals moving forward, and they just always seem to be bogged down.

Things never get accomplished. There just doesn't seem to be anyone in an oversight position to make sure that these things are getting done. One of the things in 90 that I like so much is that if you've got a quarterly rock, you can have milestones underneath it because a lot of times someone will say, okay, We're going to implement Salesforce this quarter, and everyone goes, great, that's going to be your rock rate. And then every week you're supposed to say if it's on track or off track. So meaning, are you working on it? Is it going okay? Off track means, hey, I got to raise my hand. I don't—

I'm getting stuck.

Well, a lot of times people just blow through it and say, oh yeah, we're all good, we're all good. And then it comes to the end of the quarter and then someone says, hey, yeah, I didn't do— I didn't implement that. So the nice thing with the milestones is the milestones can be set and then they actually roll into your to-dos. So as you're going through the meeting, you can say, hey, doesn't look like you contacted Salesforce, or hey, doesn't look like you, you know, are starting to implement it or see if it, you know, works for our system. So it's a, it's a better way to gauge how you're going through it.

So without an integrator to kind of like manage that, things kind of like fall through the cracks, and then I think people get frustrated with the whole process.

And then what kind of criteria should a company use when they're evaluating hiring a fractional professional integrator?

I think a lot of times it comes down to, you know, how well that, that person's going to work with your visionary and how willing the visionary is and accepting to listening to an integrator or anyone from outside. You know, I've had a couple of conversations with one individual. He was— he said, well, his implementer said he needed to get an integrator. And I said, okay, well, there'll be meetings, you know, we'll have an L10 meeting, we'll have department meetings, we're going to have, you know, same page meeting. And he said, well, I can't— we can't spend any more time in meetings.

At my firm.

And I get that. I'm not, you know, I'm—

but it's almost like he's checking a box.

Like, my implementer said to get an integrator, and so, you know, here we go. And I'm like, that's not going to work. So I think you have to be willing to want to put the work in because it's not just going to happen organically. You know, you're going to have to actually do some, you know, some work yourself. When you get the integrator, they're going to push you a little bit. And so I think it's a lot about the personality meshing. And then also, you know, if that person is, you know, someone that you're comfortable with and want to be on your leadership team.

And if it's, if it's a decision that they're willing to make the time, and they found the right person that they're comfortable with, what are some of the other criteria that you think are important that businesses consider when looking for a good integrator?

I think it would make a lot of sense to, you know, really make sure that that is a direction that you want to go with either externally or— first of all, look internally, of course, because if there is somebody that already knows your business and, you know, hey, then that works out great. But if you're looking to go fractionally, I think you want to make sure that that person is somebody that, you know, has the same kind of work ethic, work style that you have. Maybe even bring them in for you know, a meeting. And, you know, I— that's at least what I do— and kind of, you know, sit back and take some notes and on how their leadership team is, is working. And then maybe the next time, you know, I'd lead a meeting just to see, you know, how things would go utilizing me. And then that way gives some sort of comfort level of, is this somebody that we want to work with? Do they have the, you know, characteristics of what we were looking for?

Yeah, as an integrator, you've got to be— I mean, you're overseeing everybody at some level in the organization. So it's not just appeasing or making sure you can work well with the visionary. No, making sure you can collaborate well with every leader. Correct. Yes. Does it become kind of a decision by consensus then, or is it ultimately still a decision that that visionary is making and the others leaders might have to just live with it?

I think it starts with the visionary, because I think if that doesn't work, there's really no point in it being collaborative. But I really do think that it is part, you know, the leadership team should weigh in, and they should, you know, decide if that is something that they're comfortable with. That's the whole point of the leadership team is, you know, making decisions so that it's not always just the visionary and their point of view, but also the leaders that he's you know, they're paying money for, and they're paying for their expertise. So they want to make sure that they're utilizing them and asking them, you know, their opinions.

Yeah. How many times has it happened where you've come in, you've come in and realized there's a person on the leadership team that might not need— shouldn't be there for one, maybe not the right person, or right person, but just in the wrong seat?

How often does that happen? So that happens a lot, unfortunately, especially when I don't come in in the beginning. What ends up happening is the leadership team is seen as like a big shiny star of, you know, everybody wants to be on it. And it's a lot of work and people don't realize that. And it's not just I'm going to attend meetings, it's I need to participate. And, you know, a lot of times it's everyone, you know, was invited who's a manager. Well, that's sometimes that doesn't need to happen. And, you know, there could be one person that manages, you know, another person that that other person doesn't need to be on as well.

So that is a conversation.

It doesn't always mean that they're, they're not in the right people, right seats. Sometimes it just means like they just don't belong in the leadership team. But their role is still great. And they can be ahead of a department meeting, because we also roll out, you know, we have department meetings that so that Not everything is hashed out at a leadership level. Some things need to be hashed out on the finance level, marketing level, so that you can then bring the solutions or bring what issues really need to be addressed to the leadership team. But yeah, and then it's an uncomfortable conversation, but you have to ask people to, we're gonna move forward without you. But that's definitely part of the process.

Yeah. Do you find yourself spending a pretty normal amount of time with each client, or some clients have a higher demand than others, or does it, does it ebb and flow based on, uh, you know, type of business, seasonality of business, um, fires that come up, you got to dive in? Like, how does, how does your workflow change?

Yeah, it ebbs and flows pretty, you know, substantially. So, you know, one person, they'll need, um, you know, uh, extra attention if they're you know, in the middle of an acquisition, or they're in the middle of trying to, you know, hire or fire somebody. Sometimes there needs to be additional attention paid, or, you know, they're going through their annual process of, you know, coming up with their goals and rocks for the quarter. And maybe, you know, we need a couple of meetings just to figure out what our revenue goals are, or what we're going to do for the year. So it just, it depends. So kind of depends on the clients, and it could be seasonal, could just be a one-off.

So you come from an accounting world where everything's typically by the hour. Is that how you approach your pricing as a fractional integrator, or is it more of a flat scope of work?

Yeah, it's more of a flat scope of work. I find that even in the accounting realm, we have gone to, you know, fixed fees. Because I think people are just, are comfortable with that. I think that they will, you know, raise their hand and ask you a question or want to put a meeting on the calendar more than if they're, you know, they're thinking, oh, that's going to cost me X amount for, you know, her to be there. So I think that everyone's just more comfortable with a, you know, a set amount and that they know what's going to happen.

Yeah. And then that's where the scope Correct. Comes up and when things ebb and flow with a flat fee, how do you manage that?

So I think, you know, you have to give people grace to know that it's, you know, if it's just a one-off or, you know, they just need some extra help. But if it does seem to be like, you know, you're being pulled into too many things, you kind of have to throw up a flag and say, hey, I don't think I need to be involved in all of the HR meetings or, you know, all the finance meetings, like, you know, because that's not what we agreed upon.

Upon.

And I think generally people are, you know, pretty okay with when you tell them, hey, that's kind of stuff.

If you've got a good core value fit with the organization, you've got a good relationship with the owner, you can have those conversations when they're happening, and you can jump in when you need to solve the problem, put out the fire. If it starts to be coming too taxing, you say, hey, we— this is—

we need to adjust our expectations or engagement and Yes, I think that's a lot about life is just, you know, getting the expectations managed and making sure that you're upfront. And, you know, you're like, I'm not hiding anything. This is what I'm going to do for you. And yeah, when you have something that comes up, I'm willing to help you. But, you know, we have to maybe negotiate that if you're going to continue to have that come up.

Yeah.

I love the fractional integrator role. It's— it to me, that's the scariest one for a an entrepreneur or visionary or business owner to let go of. I've been thinking a lot about entrepreneurs just really should only have one hat. I think that's the biggest lesson.

Well, absolutely. That's what they say in the accountability chart is that you can't have two seats. So, you know, you're at your best use if you can just have the one hat.

Yeah. So if you're a visionary,. And that's— you started your business and you can grow your business, you can see the next business or the next opportunity. That should be your one hat. And when you're wearing multiple hats, it just takes energy away from the one hat you're really good at wearing.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I understand when you're first starting out, you want to do all the hats, you know, everybody does. That's just, that's just human nature. But again, you know, going back to what your best use is, and what the best use of your time is for the company and, you know, how, you know, you can propel it forward.

Yeah. So if a company is run by an integrator, and that's the right hat, then they don't need a fractional integrator. But if it's companies run by a visionary who's also playing the integrator role, then that, that company should think about fractional first, full-time second. I'm a firm believer in that walk before you run, as you're especially as you're offloading leadership level duties within the organization. I see it all the time in marketing. A lot of times the leaders are wearing marketing hats also. It seems to be another one that's hard to let go of. Yes, absolutely. And if with the advent of the fractional leader and the great resignation, now is the opportunity for organizations to look at their leadership team completely differently than they've ever been able to and those that are getting that top-tier talent into the boardroom, into the leadership team, and solving bigger challenges and finding opportunities that you can't do if you're wearing too many hats.

You just can't see all those different opportunities as well. Absolutely. Yeah, it's an opportunity cost, really. I mean, you think that it costs money, but it also costs what you could do. And what, you know, what business development you could have. Or, you know, if you brought in somebody for marketing who actually knew about marketing, what could you accomplish?

What—

how much more could you get? I need to get you into my sales appointments with me so you can talk opportunity costs with my clients, because you're an accountant, you can have that conversation a lot better than marketing.

Anytime, anytime.

I'm a big proponent of it. Yeah, you gotta, you know, You know, it's like the who, not the how, you know, you can, you can, I mean, you can learn accounting, it's, it's not rocket science, but who, you know, if you don't want to, and it's not, it's not something that you're good at, then outsource it, give it to somebody else.

Absolutely. And companies have historically outsourced accounting pretty easily and, and legal pretty easily. But when you get to things like operations, customer service, sales, marketing, that's a hard one to let go of. And then when you look at the leader, the business owner typically has done all those things as they've built the business. And now they're holding on to ones they think no one else can do better.

That's a hard one to, to break. Yes, when they think no one can do it better than them, that is a hard thing to get over. How do you overcome that for some? I think just like really Showing them that that's not true, that there are people that, you know, expertise out there that they're missing out on because they think that they have to do it themselves. And also, you know, showing them that it takes so much time when you're not good at something to do something. And it's so inefficient when you can, you know, outsource it to someone else who can get it done in a fraction of the time And then you can do what you, you know, what you do best.

Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here.

I know, I know. So what else do you do for fun besides accounting and Integr8ing?

What's your, some of your hobbies? So I'm from Cleveland, so big sports. So I love the fall, you know, the Cavs and the Browns and watching that. And then on top of that, I like to volunteer. I've got a couple of organizations that I'm on the board for, and I like to, you know, kind of give back and also do something a little outside of what I do on a day-to-day basis and, you know, help other people.

So it's a good mix. When you give back, are you giving back your time and expertise, like as a accountant or an integrator? Are you giving back your, you know, your other—

are you donating your energy in other ways? Um, typically it's, uh, you know, on the finance end because that's usually, um, the big need. Um, so, um, but, you know, I also, you know, love to facilitate and help out where I can. So I do, you know, try to do all things and whatever is necessary.

Yeah, I think that's great. So many nonprofits and other organizations have struggles with getting good leadership expertise. And right, it's not that they don't have good team members already, but some of that strategic really experience is out of reach, right? To be able to bring that level of expertise into a team and help out is so meaningful, so valuable.

Yes.

And then to get a different perspective on, you know, to have a nonprofit and to work with them and, you know, their struggles instead of, you know, just a for-profit corporation is a little different too.

So it's very interesting. Yeah. When I got into marketing, I actually left the mortgage industry and started into the marketing industry. And I went in with an intention to do at least half my business with nonprofits. And so I ended up starting a video production company about a dozen years ago. And I still have that video production company, we make the videos that make you want to cry and get more money. But I got to know nonprofits really, really well, and the need is so great for what they do. There's not a nonprofit out there that doesn't do good work. Absolutely, absolutely. And there's not a nonprofit out there that doesn't need help, and whether it be resources or time. So the more people can give— I just focused on trying to provide a good service to help them raise money at a affordable cost. And it was super fulfilling work. Still is. But gosh, it's, it's tough.

The last couple years for nonprofits has been really hard. Very difficult.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's hard to raise money when you can't have an event. I mean, that is their bread and butter.

Now, some of the nonprofits did find ways to go virtual with their events. Oh, sure. It was interesting because some of our clients on that side of the business, uh, or in my other business, they raised less money but netted more because they didn't—

right, because expenses.

And that's another good point, because, you know, sometimes you don't need to do a big fancy dinner and realize that, like, maybe if we scale back, like, we could, you know, get the same— because you're doing it virtually, um, you're getting, you know, this much money. So if you just did a simple luncheon or you know, a get-together instead of, you know, the big 5-star event, maybe you would. Like you said, it's at the end of the day net more and have less stressed out people because those events are always so stressful, right?

They are. There needs to be like a fractional event coordinator for nonprofits. That's a good idea.

Yeah, we can—

you coming up with all the ideas.

Yeah, just not going to get it like grant funded so it didn't cost them anything. That would be, that would be the perfect mix for a nonprofit, right? That would be amazing. Well, we could work on that on a little side.

Yeah, absolutely.

Definitely be willing to do that. Solve that problem. That would go—

that'd be a big deal.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, what else should we talk about? You have anything, other thoughts on fractional leadership? You do? Where do you see it going in the future? The the fractional leaders? I think it's an interesting time we're in where you've got this influx of talent. A lot of people are looking to free up and focus on what they love, and the demand's there.

Do you see it continue to grow?

I really do.

I mean, I think it's come— we've come a long way from, you know, needing someone in a seat in an office for anyone that we hire. And to be able to, you know, keep your eyes on them at all times, or if you need something. So I think we've really, you know, in the last couple of years have figured out that, hey, we can do things virtually. Someone doesn't need to be with me 40+ hours a week, and I can get as much benefit out of someone who's just working, you know, fractionally than I can if, you know, I'm getting someone of lower value that's going to sit there for 40 hours and, and do whatever. So I really think people are starting to realize that, and as well, people are realizing that that's something that they want to do, um, that they want to do fractional work. And, you know, there's a lot of good fractional people out there now, um, to help you with that. So, um, you're getting— it's like the best of both worlds. People are finding out that they need fractional people, and people are becoming fractional. I just think it's a win-win. And like you said, you know, you can hire someone fractionally. It's not a long-term commitment. It doesn't have to be 5 to 10 years. And if you decide that, hey, maybe I'd like somebody full-time, either maybe that fractional person would know of someone or could help you, you know, get that person up to speed as well. So I I just think that there's a lot of upside.

Yeah. How do you, how do you see that with the influx of fractional professionals? How do you see the average business owner be able to discern between a good fractional professional and not so good one?

Yeah, that's always a big issue because, you know, it's a, it's a lot to take on and to trust somebody with. So you want to make sure that they are I would say, you know, looking at things that they've done in the past, you know, whatever roles that they've had, kind of, again, going back to, you know, the interviewing process, making sure that they're in line with your core values and your beliefs. You know, maybe getting them in for a shorter consulting period just so that, hey, you know, no hard feelings if it doesn't go one way or the other. But, you know, it's, it's a, it's a big time commitment and a big process that with some payoff, but you know, you need to do the work.

Yeah. And what do you, what would you say to a new person entering the fractional world, that some of the blind spots they might have coming into this space?

I think it's definitely good to get your processes up in place. So you know, when you get an engagement, how you want to run it, and to make sure that you're putting, you know, your things in place so that, you know, it doesn't get out of hand or out of scope or away from you. So I would make sure that you have that foundation built and, you know, maybe what apps you might want to use or how you're going to convey that from the get-go so that you have some idea of you know, the expectations going into it. And to just make sure that, you know, it is— have to be a right fit for everyone. So if, you know, it's not a right fit, you know, you can, you can decide that as well. But to, you know, to have fun with it and make sure that that's something that you want to do, then it, you know, it should just kind of all fall into place.

Yeah, that's great. Well, you've been, you've been wonderful to talk to. You've got a lot of experience experience. And it's fascinating how you can go into a company as a fractional integrator and COO and just take over. It's, it's, it's kind of concerning— or not concerning, but it's just you are taking on a lot of trust in that business. And that business owner has got to believe in you. And you're obviously doing it really well because you, you continue to grow your business and your practice. But thank you, I applaud you for that.

That's, uh, It's a big role.

Thank you.

I really like it. It is really what I've just— all my skills up to now have kind of led to this. It's really—

I really enjoy it a lot. Well, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to reach out?

Yeah, you can send me an email at sharon@eai.vision and/or go to our website, which is eai.vision.

And check us out. Yeah, I'll— we'll have those links and contact information in the show notes. Perfect. Um, well, great. I will, uh, look forward to talking to you again, uh, at one of our Fractional Professional Association meetings.

Yes.

Oh yeah, absolutely. We didn't talk about that at all.

We didn't.

It's, uh, it's a great group of fractional professionals out there, and, um, we get to learn and connect with each other on a regular basis. So I look forward to seeing you next time on the call.

Absolutely.

It's a great organization. I really like to being able to hear other people's perspectives, being fractional and bouncing ideas off each other. It's—

I learned a lot. Yeah, it's great. All right.

Well, thanks, Sharon.

Thank you. It's been good. We'll talk soon. And that's a wrap.

There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by YorCmo, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at YorCmo.com.

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