Leading with Heart - Maura Kautsky - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode #57

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be.

Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy. Welcome.

I'm excited to have today's guest. She is a thought leader on all things sales and a little bit of marketing, she says, but I think it's a little bit more than that. She's an integrator, which means she gets stuff done in the old-fashioned way. She's a doer, and she's also a servant leader, someone who leads with her heart and wants to serve not only her team but others in her life. So I'm really excited to have Mara Kotzke on our call today. She is the president of Sales Acceleration. Welcome, Mara.

Thank you, Joe. Well, um, welcome back. This will be a good time for us to just chat and share some thought leadership together.

Yeah, terrific. Well, let's start with something that I, I like to ask all our guests, which is, um, what's something that's going on in the C-suite or that you think other C-suite leaders should be thinking about today that they may not be?

Yeah, and I'm gonna take it literally from a sales angle, but really this could be for anybody. I think what I've seen, and I don't know if it's something— it's always been prevalent, but I think even more so with COVID If you really break down the C-suite leaders, what their leadership team is spending time on, it's never the core job. So for example, a sales leader on average spends really 2 hours a day on what they should be doing because they're brought into product meetings, strategy meetings, all these other things. And sales leaders are losing sight of an and then disappointed when someone doesn't deliver. And that's really because they're dragging them into too many other things that don't really affect what you've asked them to do and hired them to do. So I really would like to ask C-suite leaders to step back and really look at that. And, you know, a lot of people like to be involved. I mean, that's within my team. Well, I want to be there and I want to hear it, but that's not what I'm paying you for, right? I can give you the Cliff Notes version. I can come back and cascade the right messages, but I need you spending out of your 8-hour day, 6 or 7 hours on what you hire to do, which is sales or marketing or whatever the responsibility is. CFOs find that case too. So, but I just see a lot more of it really as rapidly happening. And I think a lot of it has to do with COVID It was just easier to get people to join in on calls thinking they had more free time and they didn't. And so people are scope creeped into the wrong things.

I think it's— that's a fascinating topic. In one way, that really sets up the value of a fractional.

Yeah.

Meaning if you only need 2 hours a day of true sales leadership, then you don't need a full-time leader.

But— Right.

And that's where a fractional sales leader comes into play, or marketing or anything. But if you do really need full-time sales leadership, 8 hours a day, how much is the company suffering from not having their leaders really doing those things.

Yeah. And as they grow and expand as an organization, they do. And most of the time, fractional, we do put ourselves out of business, right? Our intent is to come in and build and do all the things that they're supposed to be doing that they're not. And probably most likely because that person doesn't have time, we get it done for them and then it does turn into a full-time job. And that's where then we have to put a permanent body into that role for them. So it does come kind of full circle if you really look at it. Sometimes it's because of distraction. It's amazing We go to companies and really see what their sales leaders are doing. And what is— it's like that has nothing to do with sales. Yeah.

So as an integrator, someone whose job is really to lead the leaders in the organization, right? How much of your time do you spend integrating, doing what you're supposed to do? Or how much of your time is spent, you know, unfortunately, in other areas? How do you measure and control that?

Yeah, you know, that's a great question. I would have to say that I probably do spend about 80%, and at first it starts completely with having a one-on-one team meeting with my staff every week. That is a mandatory so that I can, you know, remove roadblocks, provide them direction on things they need to do, ensuring it's aligning with our strategy or their strategy within their department. But you do have to manage your time accordingly. I mean, I'm very stingy with my time. I don't let someone manage my calendar because I want to make sure the things that get on there important and going to move the business forward. And then when I will make time for other things, um, but they usually are weeks out, right? So it does, it does require you, once again, just like I said, your boss to be looking at what you're doing, for you to also have the discipline. It's easy to do that other stuff and not do what you were hired to do.

And then how do you, um, coach or develop your team so that they can follow the same prioritization of their time.

Yeah, I mean, just asking those questions. What, how's your day going? What are you working on? What are you doing? You will start to hear patterns and signs of things that they're getting involved in that they shouldn't. And then ask the question, why are you doing that? What's the value? How are you, how is that moving your responsibility? And so I think that's a really important question is just to really keep in tune, not micromanaging, it's just asking what they're doing. And then I do empower my leaders to say no. I mean, no is sometimes hard for people. I have certain people on my team and they, they listen to this and laugh. They do not know how to say no. And I'm like, you have to learn how to say no. So you have to be in, in control of your time just as much as anybody else. You're the ultimate gatekeeper of it. So learning how to say no, um, and then asking questions to people. Can you just, you know, give me the Cliff Notes version if you need some feedback? And why do I need to be in that meeting? What, what's my role in it? So being more inquisitive about other things that people are asking you to do. And then Does it fall into anything that helps you meet your goals? Because sometimes you are— to meet your ultimate goal, you may need to be involved in a project, but at a certain point, not the whole project, right?

Yeah, I found that ownership also is a key component to this, making sure that each of the leaders clearly knows what they own and what they don't own. So are you working on things that you don't own because it's part of what you own, like as you said, or Is that a good way to separate? That's not my— that's not my— it's not like you want to get anybody to not do— like, that's not my role, I'm not doing that. But yeah, whose role is it? Make sure that they clearly understand that that's their ownership and, uh, and then support them to fix it. But, but you don't do it for them. I see a lot of that happening.

I do too. Yeah, you're just a contributor. So when and where do I need to contribute to help others meet their goals, which ultimately could help you too? And you don't want to be in the way of other people's goals, but bringing you in at the right time. And that's a lesson that a lot of companies have to teach is we don't need all the executives in every meeting. When is the right time? Except for like monthly, weekly team meetings, right, where you move the barriers together. That's really where a lot of that stuff should be handled.

Yeah. I also see that in the C-suite. A lot of times there is a good leader that is wearing two hats. And so what you find is in our world, head of sales and marketing. Yes, we've seen heads of HR and marketing. We've seen heads of anything in marketing. A lot of times it's the owner who also is doing marketing. And we've identified, you know, for our purposes, anyone with an and marketing title is a prospect for us because we as fractional leaders want to take that ownership and responsibility off of an and marketer so they can do more of the things they need to be doing that maybe that more of their passion area and let marketing be led by marketing leaders. Do you see that internally at all in your organization and then externally with other organizations?

Yeah, I do. I see it often. And I have to say, in my career, I've worn the sales and marketing hat. And, you know, I'm not saying it can't be done because I've done it myself. But what you need to make sure is that you really do understand they're completely two different disciplines. And I think, you know, you and I have mentioned this to you before, is I think that people don't believe that or don't really understand the discipline of marketing, which is so much more sophisticated now than it was in years. And sales is not just somebody who's, hey, I've got a great personality and I can just go tell, you know, talk, you know, just talk to somebody and sell. You know, there's processes, there's key things you need to be listening for and saying and scripting and value propositions that need to be conveyed. And that's where sales and marketing, you know, collide and putting a lot of that materials together. But then there are, you know, skills. In both of them and particularly in sales, you know, how to listen correctly and how to close the deal because usually marketing has done all the upfront work. I mean, it's like 89, somewhere between 89 and 96% of people have done their homework before they even start talking to the salesperson. So that's where sales has to see, well, what has marketing put out there to make sure our messages align, you know, and are we partnering together and driving that messaging cohesively? So I do think there's alignment there, but in the bigger picture, Um, what I also see is making sure that, you know, those leaders that are running those, they have two separate teams. They really get the black and white of what each one does. But what we see a lot when we go into clients is the, um, owners trying to sell.

Yeah.

And that's probably the biggest mistake a company can make. And I mean that in so many ways that I can't even begin to share with you because sales— and I think owners do it because they know the product, they built it, and they think they're the best one to talk about it. But you're not really then focused on running your company, you're focusing on running sales. And so the, it's the biggest investment a company should make because it's the only thing that's gonna make a business grow is to have the salesperson in the seat driving the business forward and letting go. And that is a big shift for a business to think that way, particularly when it's founder-led and they're in and they're doing all the work themselves. And that's really where our advisors come in and you have to pry that, you know, CEO or founder away from that and say, when we free you of that, it feels like a burden off of you, and it allows you to really step back and look at the business and still provide incredible direction and, you know, the thought leadership to that leader. But someone else that's really qualified to do that job who is really a hunter, you know, there's definitely a difference between a hunter, you know, and a relationship builder. And so we are seeing that happen in a lot of organizations today too. So it gets really kind of convoluted on who's sitting in a lot of seats, you know, back to what you said. And I just, I think that more than anything, someone has to be running sales, and it cannot be the leader or the founder. Um, and so it's getting clarity on that and then moving forward as an organization is where we really step in and help people let go, build those right processes and systems, and get that right person in the right seat.

I think you're so spot on. I see it all the time. Mm-hmm. Myself and my business owner friends, they've at some point in time as they founded and grown their companies, they've probably been in a sales role. It could be from the beginning until the end. But what I found is the biggest challenge is that it seems like in my experience that the hardest thing to do is find another salesperson that is as good as the owner. And because the owners are the ones that are supposed to be hiring or finding somebody to replace them. It's that like they can't let somebody do it that is in their minds, maybe less capable or less productive. And so that's big. That's the big gap. And some of it's maybe who, not how, you know, maybe they just don't like the way that new person's doing it because they do it differently, but the outcomes might be the same, but it's different the way I would have done it. And, but some of it's just they're not good enough yet because you don't have 20 years in the business to be as good as you are today. Um, but that's where it's like, I don't wanna give up my sales role to somebody who's less productive than me. That scares me as an owner. Like, oh, how do you deal with that? Because that's gotta be what you face every day.

It is, you know, Joe, and it's, I'm so glad you said that because that's a mindset and it's not the truth. So if you have really done built a sales infrastructure, the right strategies, the right messaging, the right playbook, then that would not be a problem. So what's happened, and I know this from inheriting a founder-led company, too much of the knowledge is in the founder's brain and it hasn't been documented. There hasn't been, you know, SOP, standard operating procedures. There hasn't been a playbook written. And they hoard the information, not intentionally, but they are. And what they're doing is a disservice to their entire organization because all that isn't documented, that secret sauce, that, you know, that thing that really makes their organization unique. That's the tool book, you know, toolkit for the sales leader. And if and when that's done, which is why you can hire people like us fractionally or you, they pull that out of you and then you can equip that sales leader to be as good as you, if not better, because remember, they have sales skills that a founder in 9 times out of 10 doesn't have but thinks they do. And they only think that because they know the product better. And that's not what makes a good salesperson. So I can't stress enough that it's a mindset that is one of the hardest things to change for people. And that's because founders want to protect their baby, but they're really actually not protecting their baby. They're basically not giving it the opportunity to fly and be all it needs to be. So I couldn't have asked you to ask me a better question because I'm extremely passionate about that and I see it all the time. And so they just need to say, Do I want to grow this business? Do I want to invest in it? And am I going to be able to let go? And if— and take all that noise that nobody can do it as good as me, because that is not true. It's a mindset. Nobody will do it your way because everyone is unique, but they will do it right if they're given the right toolkit, that playbook that they need. And that's hard to create. Yeah. On your own.

I think it's so spot on. It's a mindset. It's very difficult for somebody to commit to that, giving up their baby, or as you put it. How long does it take to extract and build a thorough playbook and toolkit from, you know, a founder-led company so that you can start seeing results at the other end? So that then, ah, You know, I, I trust the process, but do I wait 6 months for it, 6 years for it? Like, when does it— and maybe it's different for different types of companies. I don't know.

Yeah. You know, on average, to really build a solid playbook to start with, you know, you can do it in 3 months and do it well. And, you know, there's no playbook is ever done, right? Because the world is evolving, the business is evolving, and then it just continues to stay up to date. But the good news is, is after you equip the sales team and leader with the initial sales playbook, they'll start to learn things that don't work and do work. And what, you know what's really great out of it? They find new things that the founder never knew, right? Because they never tried it because they got comfortable in the way they did it, not knowing that it could be bigger and better and different, right? And then you'll be amazed is once they finally breathe and see somebody doing something, then they become much more receptive And then when you bring stuff to them and say, hey, we're kind of uncovering this, what else can you tell us? They feel like a kid in a candy store. It's like, oh my God, yeah, let me talk about that. You know, so it reinvigorates them in a different way than just looking at the business the way they always have. And that's what I love about it. But yeah, we have a, we, you know, we do all that building, that messaging and framework, and it's done in sessions and it's a process that we, we call the Sales Acceleration Framework. And, and it takes about 3 months, but it's it's like full day meetings, a couple of them that we get together. We have them go out and road test it. We even do like role playing with people. And that's where, you know, if the founder wants to sit in and listen and comment, they can feel good about how they're equipping their leader and then their ultimate sales team to go out there. Yeah.

Yeah.

And then it evolves. Yeah. Evolves over time.

Yeah. And I think it's not just sales. I mean, it really, every owner, uh, has some unique especially that's part of their business. And tech founders are a good example. Like they're the coder, the developer, that's their passion area. And separating them and bringing in a fractional CTO to support building out that process is also equally difficult. Operations is another one. People don't want to give up control. Finance is a big one. I see that a lot of owners, financially, I don't want to give up like any processes related to making sure down to the point where they still sign checks every week.

Like, yes. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? They treat it like their own personal checkbook. And that's a, you know, a shift in thinking too, right? You know, it's, as businesses mature, you do have to step out of your own way as a, you know, founder or a leader of a company. And I, I mean, I have to do that as a president sometimes and go, I need to stop doing some of the things I'm doing because now I've gotten into stuff that really is not what I was hired to do. Right. The, are the people that own us, that's not what they expect me to do. So it doesn't mean you can't help your team once in a while, but you have to be careful you don't scope creep. And then you've now taken on a new job in the company besides the one you already had.

Yeah. So one of the things I see a lot of owners and C-level executives having to take on now that no one else in the organization does is AI. Because there's not a natural born AI leader in your organization because it's so new. Even like your IT individuals and team players don't know AI. So how is your organization handling AI? How are you addressing AI in your organization? I'd be very curious.

Yeah, you know, this has been something that is— I'm all— it's actually near and dear to my heart is, you know, it's part of just as a business, you know, us having to stay on top of it. And it's easy to chase the shiny object, right? So we're out there, oh, there's so many cool tools. There's note takers, there's research tools, there's personalization, customization tools. But what you first have to do is step back and just educate yourself on what is happening in the market. And there's so many sources there's, you know, that you can, you know, get that information from. But what you have to think about, how is it going to best improve your business? So we look at it from not our business necessarily, but in our clients that we see, what are some of the biggest pain points many of them have and how can we help them figure out what the right partners are for AI tools, or can we develop something? And so one of the things that we've done is we built that AI-enabled playbook. So we knew that our playbook could be bigger, better than what we're doing today. That's a lot of manual effort. So we have an intake form that we work with the client on when we're doing, like, building that, you know, that sales book. We put a lot of the stuff from the workshops in there, and then we allow AI to go out and then capture a lot of comparable data, let's say, in competitors. Do a little more deeper dive on those buyer personas to just enhance them and strengthen all those data points for us. So that's kind of how we've looked at it. We've looked at it from where can we improve as a business? And then how can we help our clients better? And then we recommend a lot of tools. I mean, simple things like note taker. I mean, you can have that on a call so you can listen and look at people versus, oh, I got to take my little notes, right? So you're more engaged, you're hearing it, then you can go back and listen to it. Or get a printout version, which I love. But what's also great about that is it now goes into your CRM. And then here comes marketing now that can scan that, right? Listen for those pain points, right? Those things that client said and help you write a very customized email back after a phone call. I mean, so it's just a matter of looking at what are the biggest things that can impact the business today, finding the right partner, right, that you can go out and use to do this. But to go and be. AI is, it's amazing how quickly it's changed. Literally, it's been around for a long time, but it's gotten the hype. You know, ChatGPT has really come out in the last year, but it's been there for a long time, just not in the, you know, manner of people thinking ChatGPT where you can ask questions. But it's going to evolve dramatically in the next 5 years. We did a, we did a workshop on the future of sales with a, a future futurist. And technology, as you can imagine, is going to have a huge impact on where sales and marketing goes. But it's not going to eliminate the need for people to do it. It's going to equip our teams to be smarter, right? So it's the combination of technology and people that are going to drive, you know, I think a lot of growth in this market. So just staying on top of it, reading case studies of what other companies are doing, think about how does that practically apply to our organization., and then focus on those key things that you wanna focus on. So that's all we've done and that's what we're doing too. The things that we know are gonna be sticky and, and support what we've been doing, you know, for off of the, you know, the, the knowledge of our founders, you know, for 40 years, the fundamentals of sales, but just enhancing it and making it better as new technology arrives. Because technology is so critical to sales and marketing today.

Yeah. I love what you're doing with enhancing your, your sales playbook with, with AI. That makes a ton of sense. Yeah, because what it does is that what I— where I see AI adding the most value today, it's, it's taking an already competent person and making them more competent and more productive. And where I see it failing is when somebody takes a, uh, someone who's not competent in an area, not necessarily it. It'd be like taking your, your CFO and saying, okay, I want you to use AI to build a sales playbook. Like, that person is super confident and could use AI to build a really smart CFO playbook, but they're not— they're gonna do an awful job of building a sales playbook with AI. Whereas you take your sales leader and say, I want you to build a sales playbook using AI, it's gonna be done quicker, it's gonna be better and it's, it's going to work, you know, 10x what it would have been just doing that person just doing that work on their own. But I see too many companies and too many people trying to do it, taking it to replace competency. Yes. Instead of enhance competency. And I think that's the, the lesson I'm trying to share with, with, you know, friends and clients is that AI is great. Don't use it as a replacement for competency.

I love that. I'm going to borrow that from you in going forward. You know, it is true because here's a, here's a frightening point of AI that we— because ours is all behind a firewall. If you go and you put copy and paste, let's say, all your processes and your tools and just put it out to any AI tool out there today, you've now made that out in the wild, wild west. So now me, if I'm going out and pulling, extracting, you know, let me know my competitors, I may all have your playbook in my hand today if you have not put it behind a firewall. So I can't stress that enough. And so You're gonna replace yourself as a business because you're giving away your secrets. But I totally agree. I think that AI is never meant to replace the human expertise and the knowledge. It's used for the two together, quicker access to data to validate, review, enhance to then for speed to market, right? So you kind of get out there a lot quicker. So that's really to me what we're gonna see is the beauty of these things becoming really more like, you know, sales and marketing holding hands. Now we've got AI in our triangle of 3 things working together.

Yeah, I was talking to a couple entrepreneurs this morning about, we're actually gonna do an AI workshop for a group of entrepreneurs. We were trying to figure out what's a cool thing we could do for everybody that would apply to everybody. And the idea we came up with is building a custom GPT, which I don't know how familiar you are with that, but And we were going to build it so that it would allow a salesperson to prospect, be more prepared for a prospective meeting. So the tool would say, go out and search Mara's LinkedIn, her X account, her Instagram account, and then search my business website, and then suggest 5 questions that I might ask Mara that would help her, help us connect and, you know, on a better discovery. And so we actually modeled it out and played with it this morning. And when it spit back the answers, it was pretty good.

Yeah.

You know, so those are the kind of things that I think are available with AI today. Like, how many different ways can your sales team, your marketing team collaborate and figure out how do we use this tool to enhance what we're doing and make it valuable for everyone in the organization? I think there's So many openings out there.

Yeah, there is. You know, another thing that we're— we, we have a tool today, just speaking of cool tools and cool things, but I love what you guys are doing because you're right. It's just dream it up and try it, right? That's really what I tell people is if you have an idea and you've read enough and you're like, I want to go explore, then explore. That's the only way you're going to learn. There's a really cool tool out there and from a company, I'll share who they are because I really think a lot of them is KnowledgeNet. And they do. So if you really know who your buyers are, so you have those good ICPs, ideal candidate profiles, and then those buyer personas, they'll go out and look for lookalikes for you on LinkedIn. And then you can then tailor the messaging that, you know, that worked with the someone that looked like me when I purchased, like I bought KnowledgeNet. What was it that, you know, made me want to use, you know, use them? And so it starts to change the game for you on refining your prospect list, though, using data points and insights from current customers. And so it's amazing what is out there for companies to explore. And so many of these new AI companies, they're willing to let you try a lot of things too, right, to see what the value is before you actually make an investment. So you just have to ask, hey, can you give me a quick little data file? Can you try this little thing for me so I can better understand what it's capable of. But it's going to be fun to see where it goes. So I love what you guys are doing. We've got a lot of other stuff that's on the, on the docket that we're going to be rolling out next year with AI. But we really test a lot, all of it behind the scenes because we don't want to bring anything to our clients that hasn't been fully vetted and we really feel like is providing value and enhancing what they're doing today.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So you run one of the largest fractional organizations, uh, the— probably the largest fractional sales organization. But of all of the fractional organizations out there, you're one of the largest. Um, what have you learned about the fractional space that would be valuable for others to know? Like, how is it different being a fractional organization versus a consultant or a, you know, even a full-time leader? What are some of the things that you've learned over the years?

Well, though we are consultants, which is a dirty word, right? Because people think they just come in and go, oh, go do all this and walk away. Um, we actually do the work for them, but people still think of the world, the fractional world, as a consultant. It's changing. And I love that fractional is now getting its own brand because it really is about hiring people that come in and do the work for you, fix the problem, the root cause, and sustain it for a growing organization. But the biggest thing I've learned is that people are more open-minded about it. When, you know, when we, when our founder started this business 12 years ago, it was a lot more conversations to close because people were hesitant. You know, it's like the used car salesman. Oh, is he really going to do what he says he's going to do? But now people really understand the fractional model, the buyers out there, and come looking for it. Now they know, like we talked about before, that maybe they only need someone 2 hours a week. Right? Because that's what maybe a newer, younger business needs. But now you want to make sure that if you went to a fractional company that is vetted, that really does have the processes, has the case studies, has proven their worth. And, you know, I think our biggest asset is that we have so many advisors. So it's a matter of two at a time, that, you know, that our business is successful, right? We've been around for 12 years. We've got this you know, large population of advisors. If something happens to someone, someone else can step in. They lean on each other too if there's a unique problem in an organization, who's experienced that. So, you know, when people do shop, I think I really encourage them to really look for larger organizations like you guys that have more people that you can leverage the talent of. And that help is, is also a mind shift in the fractional world. People are looking for that. They're not looking for the one and done little shops. They're looking for these larger organizations like us that really have, a team that they can rely on and feel like they've hired a team. So, but I think it really boils down to is fractional is finally deserving what it deserves is knowing that these are people that are gonna come in and transform your business. So that's what we, and I, I can say that really started taking a shift really in the last 5 years. Yeah. Been an uphill battle, but I think we finally got there. And it's an exciting time, right, to be in this fractional business because it's 38% of the workforce is fractional. 38%. Mm-hmm. It's a lot. Yeah. And, you know, I think COVID helped increase that a little bit, right? Because people were losing jobs or they were reflecting on what do I want to do? And you will find that most people in a fractional role want to leverage the experience they have and share it with others. I mean, in our advisors, they have to have a minimum and they're so seasoned. We have an extreme vetting process because they have to really have the background experience to lead because it's a combination of all of our processes and procedures with the skill set and a proven track record. Right. You can't just train somebody to be a fractional sales leader that hasn't done it and walked in that shoes. And so that's another thing, just like marketing. If you've not been a proven marketer, you are not going to be able to come in and make an impact. So it's an important question when client— when, you know, we have clients is for advisors to you know, inform them of my background, but as well as our processes that have, you know, helped transform thousands of companies.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because that's one of the things that we really think is important. One of our core values is value the ex— let's see, it's trust the process, value the expertise. And it's those two things combined that we find that are very important. And what's interesting is when we work with clients, if they don't trust our process or value our expertise, it always doesn't work out. But also internally, for managing and growing our business, we have processes and we have expertise in different areas, and it applies that way. But I look at a lot of organizations that are in the fractional space that don't have a process. They have great expertise, but they don't have a process. And for organizations like yours and mine, we've spent the energy and the resources to develop proven processes. In our world, they're kind of more frameworks for the expertise to be done within. And I think it's yours as well. So it allows for personalization, customization. It's not an agency-like cookie-cutter approach. No, it's proven frameworks to deliver successful outcomes. And that's important. And if you don't have a proven process and you just have a valuable expert, it can work, but it's more likely, we feel, to work when you can marry the two.

I agree 100%. Um, and that's really why leaders come to us because they have the knowledge, but they don't have all the tools and the, the, you know, how you, you go about taking that in now at a small to midsize business. Um, and really what are the steps to take, right? What order so that I can get in and out of there, right? Because they could just come in and fix infrastructure in our world, or they can come in and manage the team if there is one while they're building it, right? Which is that, you know, they can kind of go in in a couple different ways. But it is, it starts with expertise to be able to execute those processes, right? Because those processes go back to expertise, right? So it comes full circle. That's why it's a process. Yeah.

Yep. The other thing that I've found is that it's very important and, and I call it being a full-time fractional. So what we have is in our organization, which I think is very similar to yours, we have professionals that have committed a full-time work to be a fractional, and they're not working full-time for somebody else and doing part-time consulting. And I think there's a lot of fractionals in the space or that are trying to get into the space. And I don't have a problem with somebody trying to get into the space, but it's different if you don't have somebody that's full-time but vested into the fractional delivery of services. It's, as a client, it's very hard to get the true value of that fractional if you're having only certain hours a day you can reach out to that person, or they're working overnight instead of in real time. It's just different. Do you, do you see that true in your organization as well?

Yeah, so, you know, our, all of our fractional advisors, they come in and this is their, this is their business, right? This is their own business that they're out and they license our materials and tools, but they, they are working full-time. So what's great is they do dedicate in certain hours to each client, but it doesn't mean that, you know, when you're running a sales department, you have to be able to answer emails and keep the business moving. And so that's the beauty of it. Since they are working a 40, 50, you know, whatever they choose to week, um, they're not— they're always available to their clients. And so, and that is, you know, in this day and age, as quickly as things move, that's, that's table stakes, right? For— but then they— the client knows I've also paid for when I have to go in and run a strategy workshop or build that, then I'm giving that one-to-one time to that client. And that's, you know, that's an expectation from the client. So, but then in between, I'm staying, you know, engaged depending on what it is I'm doing for the client. Obviously, if you're managing their team, then it requires more resources. And, um, so yeah, we do. We, um, and that's really a, a requirement of our advisors that, you know, you— this is your business, right? Because you have to focus on it and be there for our clients because it's a reflection of their brand and our brand because they're powered by, you know, sales acceleration with our tools.

Yeah. And I think I believe that independence also that comes with owning your own business, that the independent mindset that comes with owning your own business. And then I would add in our case, you know, there's also this fiduciary role that we expect our CMOs to play when they're working with clients because we don't have anything else in our orbit to sell. Like we're not an agency, so we don't have creative work or design work.

Right.

So we feel that that independent and fiduciary client role is very important. And I know you're the same. Your team is, you know, you're sales leaders. You're not also selling HubSpot or some other widget. You've got sales leadership. That's what you are. That's what you bring. And clients then can feel confident that they have a trusted advisor on their team that's making the recommendations and doesn't have another reason to suggest something over another.

Yeah, you know, that's a great point because so you can imagine, and CRM is table stakes, right, in, in the world today. Shockingly, we will go into companies and still 50, 60% don't have a CRM. We will find out what it is that they need and track, and our advisors will recommend, right, certain CRMs. But it's not because they're out, you know, a referral, official referral partner for them or anything that— but we have all these you know, that we, we give them the education on, because you may have used HubSpot your entire career, but you may learn that, oh, a smaller one like a Pipedrive or Claritysoft may be better and more economical for that client. So you'll suggest that. So, and same thing like with you guys is we may find that they don't have a marketing department, and so we look for those glaring holes, and then we, we have what we call a list of what we call partner productivity partners that we say, here's, you know, 3 or 4 CRMs. Do you want me to help you decide which one? You know, which is usually why you're there. Um, and let's take a look at all of them. Or do you just want me to say do this one? Because now what I know we do— so we kind of work in that way. Um, because there are tools that we need, and just as much it's CRMs and marketing help. So that's really where we step in. And then the last thing, more than anything, is hiring. They have the wrong people in the right seats. They have empty seats. So when then we, you know, use— we have a sister company, Amplify Recruiting, that just specializes in sales. We do that. So I can't say that we don't have some other businesses, but those aren't our core competencies. It's just uncovering that need and then slotting in tools that we feel like are really built for our type of clientele.

Yeah, I agree. And I think that's where it's a little confusing sometimes in the client space. When sales and marketing— when do I need a sales leader to solve this problem? When do I need a marketing leader? And if my marketing leader says you need a sales leader also, why isn't the marketing leader doing that? Like, you should— you know, if you— if we have a prospecting problem, is it a marketing problem or is it a sales problem? So we always think that it's great to bring in a sales leader into an engagement, but it can sometimes be a little confusing to a client. Why are you having somebody else do the work that I thought I hired you to do? How do you guys, you know, help support that kind of, not necessarily siloed thinking, but staying in your own lane? And when's the right time for sales to get involved and marketing involved? And how do you handle those issues that come up from time to time?

Yeah, well, you know, all kinds of, not just our business, so many, anything you're selling, this becomes a common problem and it's because you didn't have a good scope of work. Right? What is your scope of work that you're providing to that client clearly documented when they sign up on the project? It's the best way to provide 100% clarity to the client to really have your statement of work. And if you have a contract or if it's just an SOW, whatever you're doing with them, clearly outlined and going through that with them, not just, oh, here's the contract, go sign it and hope they just sign it and don't pay attention. Is it's the start of every project to go, here is what I'm going to be doing. If we have to scope creep or scope or need other areas, I will recommend partners to come into you. And that's kind of a 101 of sales, but so many people miss it. And so we do a lot. And this happens all the time with marketing. Well, but sales is lead generation. Yes, they are. But now more than ever, they need marketing to warm that lead, to help with some of that lead generation. And that is not a sales skill set. You know, they're good at once they get on the phone and maybe doing some prospecting phone calls, but you need multiple ways leads are coming into you in today's day and age, not just a one, you know, one-shot direction. So it's helping that client understand where sales and marketing collide and where they help each other. So hopefully that answers what you were asking, but starts with that clear SOW, then going over when you start the project with them.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So what would you say to somebody who's a professional, whether it's a salesperson, marketing person, CFO, CTO, that's interested in becoming a fractional? What are some of the, like, major differences that they need to be aware of jumping into a fractional role?

Yeah, well, it's work, so you really have to have the grit and determination that this is really one I want to commit to. And it takes time, right? So you've got to ramp your business up. So going in eyes wide open, you're not just going to open the door and 30 days later have 100 clients standing at the door. But with joining a company like yours or like ours that has proven processes, people there to support you in a team, you're going to get there faster. You know, 90 days you should be up and running and your business starting to grow. But really, really self-reflect. Do I want to, you know, do I'm going to own my own business, which now I have to put on that hat of I'm wearing to start, right? I'm wearing the CFO hat, the operations hat, the marketing hat, the sales hat. But can I partner with a company that really is already gets me speed to market? Because if not, it will take you, you know, 3, 4 times longer than paying someone to get your business up and running and then just sticking with it. You know, it's that grit saying I'm going to hold through this, you know, rely on the resources around me and their expertise and listen. Because I can't tell you how many times people think they know a better way to do things. And you're— and we always remind our people, you paid us because we know if you follow our process, because it's proven, it will work. But people get in their own way. And so really committing to when they come into a partnership arrangement, like something like with one of ours, is, is doing what you were paid for. And, um, and that's the most important thing to do, is to listen to the people that you trusted and chose to partner with to be experts. But, um, that's really— it's, it's as simple as that. And, um, not saying that people can't start their own fractional business today, but boy, the learning curve of someone in any kind of fractional business today you can think of is already out there. If you can get into a partnership to start You're gonna get there so much faster and you're gonna have the thought leadership of so many more people to keep your business current. Because when you're a one-man show, it's hard to stay current when you don't have all those other people bringing you ideas. I mean, we have an incubator program and we ask our advisors to bring— what are we missing? What are we not seeing? We're always looking to the future, but we can't do it alone. We can do it with the power of the people.

Yeah. Yeah. I'll flip the question around and say, if you're gonna talk to somebody in the C-suite, and it's going to be their first fractional hire. What are you going to tell them the differences are that they need to be aware of to make that a successful engagement?

Yeah, well, we're not employees, so you don't— and we are there, we are the experts. So you have to listen and you have to respect what you paid for and processed. You know, it goes back to the same thing. A lot of them think, oh, this is how we do it. This— you paid us to come in and transform your business. So don't lose sight of that, right? That you, you have to let go of those sacred cows and you have to really, really let the people do what you wanted them to do. And it's tough, right? That's a hard mindset to shift through. And so you have to fight for only things that stay true to your culture or your vision of who the company is, but not the nitty-gritty processes and details because they're not working today. That's why you needed us.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's great. Um, I always tell business owners, your job is to be the visionary, you know, in this— and yours too is the integrator also— to know where the company's going and set that vision. Not roles, and— but right, that's your job. Your job is to set strategy alongside that vision, um, and then find— your next job is to find the people to execute that. Yeah. And then if you, if you've read Who Not How, you need to embrace it. You need to find the people who will execute but not worry about how they do it because they will all do it differently. But as long as they know where they're going and the strategy to get there, they can execute and find those people. And if you can do those two things, you know, you can build a successful organization. But when you start tinkering in the hows, or you don't release some of the who work, like the strategy work, you wear too many hats internally. It's not going to allow you to really scale and grow the way you want to.

And you're probably not having fun. You know, when you take on the world as a founder or a business owner, you start— that's when you stop having fun. It goes back to me saying in the beginning, look at what you're doing and you will find that you're doing a lot of things that you shouldn't be doing. So having the guts to let go of that stuff and not thinking that only I can do it, you know, that's a, that's a moment for somebody. But, um, that's really what's gonna shake off that kind of change that you need for an organization. Yeah.

All right. My last question to you then is, what are you doing today that, that you're having fun doing? And what are you gonna let go of? What are you gonna let go of in 2024?

Yeah, well, gosh, I need to let go of a lot. Um, yeah, so, um, but in particular, we have our summit coming up, and I was thinking that my team does such a great job, so it's wonderful. Um, I really think I, I want to let go of doing more product work and really getting an expert in here. So there's my commitment. I'm going to hire someone because I have had to wear that hat, and I just shared that the other day. Um, and so that's what I'm going to do. And then having fun is You know, my, my joy every day is the team I work with. I love every single one of them because I have the people, the right people in the right seats. And I didn't, you know, a different— a year and a half ago. And boy, what a difference it makes when you have the right people in the right seat. We're all having fun together because we all know we are uniquely designed for that role and that hat that we wear. And so that's, that's it for me. I love when my staff just calls me. I have a very open door policy. We use Teams. And it's ringing, I'm like, oh, how can I help you today? Because that is my job, right? So I want them to know that it's never a bother. I'm here for you. And that, that's my fun.

That's great. Well, Mara, I'm so excited for you to be here. Thank you so much.

I'm really grateful. Thank you, Joe. I enjoyed it. And this is another one of my goals. I'd shared that with you earlier. I wanna do more podcasts. So, um, I, I appreciate you inviting me on here today.

Yeah, it's been great. And thank you for the audience for listening. If you do want to reach out to Mara, I think the best way to do it is via email. It's m.kautsky@salesacceleration.com. And those will be in the show notes too. But it's K-A-U-T-S-K-Y at Sales Acceleration with an X. So look for the sales notes or the podcast notes for exact spelling. But don't forget to subscribe and download the podcast. Appreciate you listening and look forward to talking to you again. Thank you so much. And that's a wrap.

There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by YorCmo, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at YorCmo.com. YorCmo.com, spelled wrong on purpose.