Navigating the AI Revolution in Marketing - Kim Jackson - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode #59

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be.

Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy.

Welcome. I'm excited for today's guest. She's an experienced leader in both the capital markets and marketing. She's a thought leader in female entrepreneurship and how to use AI for marketing. And she is owner of Personal Brands Media and is a fractional CMO at Your CMO. Welcome, Kim Jackson. Glad to have you.

Thank you, Joe. I'm very excited to talk to you today about my favorite subject, AI and marketing.

Thank you. Yes, I'm always excited to interview one of our fractional CMOs because it's such a different way to get to know and expose you to the world and your genius that is you. So let's hop right into it. The first question I want to ask you, I ask all of my guests, it's, you know, what is one thing that you think C-suite leaders need to be thinking about today that they may not? That you're definitely thinking is important and something that should be top of mind?

Sure. And to begin with, I mean, they may already be thinking about this, but I absolutely unequivocally believe that every C-suite leader should be thinking of how to integrate, how can AI have an impact in their businesses? Absolutely should be thinking about if they haven't already formed a tiger team on the subject, that it needs to contain, you know, cross-functional leaders, different roles in the company. I think often CEOs will make the mistake of thinking AI is just an IT topic. It absolutely is not. In fact, I think you're really missing the boat if you're just putting kind of your IT guys and gals on the problem. It's really how the business business can leverage AI to be more successful.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I've heard many other people on the topic say, like, if this— if, if the CEO doesn't own it, yes, meaning it's going to be a strategic initiative for the entire organization, uh, nobody can own it and it won't get done.

Absolutely.

So, but I like what you said, and it can't be owned and then given to just the IT organization to implement. AI tools. It's, it's much greater than that. So what are you seeing as some of the— I like to use the cross-functional. So you're a marketing leader, but you're advocating for some sort of cross-functional tiger team. What does that look like? What are some of the key people that should be on that tiger team, or does it change and differ for a company?

I mean, I, I think obviously in every company it could be different, but I think the, the guiding principle when you're forming a tiger team, obviously You need the absolute most senior leader in the company sponsoring this initiative. It's really hard to get people to adopt new ideas, especially in banking, where I probably already know, but I write a biweekly newsletter on the subject. But for me, I think the people that have to be involved are, are people who own a business line in the business. If you take, you know, banking as an example, you know, the Small Business Admin— the SBA loan division, the commercial loan division, because I think that you've got to connect the clients that you're serving, the outcomes that they're looking for, and how AI can help you achieve those goals. And that's just impossible without the business the owners of the business lines in the organizations. You obviously need an IT person, but I would— I could be controversial, but I almost, I almost want to say they should almost take a back seat in the beginning. To me, figuring out how AI can be leveraged in a way that is advantageous to business is most important. The IT piece for me comes in as, okay, well, how are we technically going to achieve that goal. And again, I hate to say it's secondary. It's obviously very important. They need to be in the conversation very early on. But, you know, not just marketing people, you know, people who run the businesses, obviously marketing, the messaging, especially I think in highly regulated industries. You know, AI is such a hot topic. It's kind of given, I think, a bad rep in the news often, especially now. With elections coming, I'm getting a little off topic, but I want to make sure we talk about this because I think about it a lot lately. I'm really scared that if you don't message properly with AI, it could end up setting you back and then keeping, you know, making everyone gun-shy from wanting to move forward with the initiative. Doesn't have to be quick, but I think you need to be thinking and You need to be thinking along the lines of this will become a part of our lives and our business. It is inevitable. So let's start to get our arms around it.

Yes. And you think that because of some of the news media around the negative aspects of AI, the fearmongering around AI, you think with absence of a clear message, the default will be to do nothing.

100%. I think they'll it'll be kryptonite, right? Like, they'll worry again, like a bank is a great example. Trust is such a big element of brand messaging in the financial sector. So I, again, I think getting ahead of all that, thinking through, you know, I really believe there's going to be sort of this backlash against AI. And I really think with the election year coming, that's going to set it all off. And, you know, I hear very, very smart people that I respect expect say just the silliest things about AI. Obviously, I think there's a lot of— oh, another person who should be on your tiger team is someone I think who is charged with thinking about all the ethical implications of using AI. Very, very important. And again, like getting that messaging right, addressing it, getting ahead of what I believe is going to be coming in the next year or two. Is going to be crucial. And I think anything handled in the right way, you can get that messaging through. But I lost my train of thought. But anyway, the message—

let me pull you to the messaging.

I'll get a little off topic there.

You're going right way because messaging is so important. And I'm just curious, when you say messaging, about AI, are you thinking of that as an internal messaging dilemma or external messaging?

Great question. Absolutely both. Because again, I'll take banking as an example. I spoke at the American Bankers Association on AI, and I was shocked. You had kind of 25% of the room that was like, this is incredible. We need to get our arms around this. Let's jump on this train. 75% of the room was like, oh no, no, we can't do that. No, it's so impersonal. And in fact, I would almost assert that the internal messaging is almost more important and should be prioritized first because you have to have buy-in, right? And it has to be collaborative and cross-functional. If you're going to have a bunch of naysayers and nervous Nellies about it, it's not going to be successful.

Yeah, that's where I was thinking you were headed in because the external messaging is going to be very different for everybody. But internally, the message has to be clear. AI is not a fad. It is here forever. If we do not embrace it, we will fall behind. Our competition will embrace it.

Yes.

And the CEO has to set that. Sorry, I'm talking over you, but the CEO has to set that, right?

Absolutely. And, you know, I think it's sort of like when your parents always tell you you should do something, it's like the last thing you want to do. And I do think there's a little bit of this AI fatigue going on as well. Yeah, people who are hesitant are intimidated. And I see this even in my own family. I mean, my own, my son, my husband, like, you guys, please let me walk you through ChatGPT. Please let me show you Perplexity AI. It is such an incredible tool. I can see the look on their face like, oh God, not the AI thing again. So yes, but it's just crucial and really you should be. And there's actually some really interesting companies out there that actually specialize in pulling people along, getting their buy-in. And I'm happy to refer people to that. But I think it's really important. That could be sort of, if you put a tiger team together, that could literally be phase 1. In the first 6 months, teach people internally why we think AI is important. You know, I think educating people will make them feel less afraid and will empower them then to buy into the process and contribute.

Yeah, I think it has to start with the why, like most things, to get everybody understanding the, the why behind AI. Why is it important for our organization to embrace AI. And without that why being clear, then it does get a little fatigue, like, ah, another tool, another bell and whistle. I mean, the number of people that have told me how they can write poetry in AI, I mean, I just shrug my shoulders and I say, why? Great, you can do that, but I'm not getting excited about AI because of that. But when I hear I can, I can 10x the productivity of my software development team by embracing AI tools, or I can reduce my 8-hour content planning session to 2 because of AI, and now I can do 4 times as much work in that department. Like, that's some of the, like, clear whys.

Yes.

And then you talk about, well, well, why not? If you don't do it and your competitors advancing their business at 4x or 10x, you're just gonna fall behind. So you've got that why to it. And those are the things that internally senior leaders need to be addressing the why first, and then it'll start to make sense.

Yeah. And you know, there's kind of the boring why, which is it makes business dollars and cents. I always try and inspire creative teams in that it unlocks creativity too. I mean, it's what I have learned with AI, the obvious time savings is I feel like I've multiplied myself by 20. But I have expanded my mind. I've gotten smarter. I'm training myself to be better at out-of-box thinking. And I think depending on who your audience is, I think you also, it's just like external marketing. You almost have to segment, okay, your audience, the IT people, why? Okay, the C-suite, dollars and cents, why? Your creative team, why? The customer service team, why? They're all gonna be different whys, but I think they're all equally exciting and could be motivating to those people.

Yeah. What do you say to the people that are justly concerned about the loss of jobs to AI?

So of course it's a concern, just like the Industrial Revolution, similar concern. I don't know what the answer is other than to say I think jobs will be different. I think there is going to be an adjustment period. Yes, part of it will be painful. Another part of it will be exciting. I think the best way you can prepare yourself is to understand how, you know, the application of AI, how it can help you, how it can help customers. I think what it will— if you can embrace it, I think people, it will open people's minds to think of, well, we used to do it this way, now we're going to do it this way. I think it's actually going to create more opportunity. You know, becoming an AI prompt expert, I mean, that wasn't a job, you know, a few years ago. So again, I empathize and understand and I acknowledge that yes, it will eliminate jobs, but I also think it'll create jobs. I don't know exactly what they're going to be. We're in the nascent stages of this. Machine learning and AI isn't in the nascent stages, but kind of its introduction to the public is. So I think be cautiously empathetic to the issue because it is absolutely a real issue. But again, I think, you know, and if that really is a concern in certain companies, I mean, you know, offer training opportunities, you know, how can you get more well-versed in AI? So again, I think, I think you need to accept it's here and then, you know, figure out where you're going to fit in. You know, there's that, that quote that flies all over LinkedIn, which is AI won't take your job, but someone who knows AI will. And that is the truest statement I have heard in the last year.

What I was thinking is I found a lot of people are trying to replace competency with AI, and it doesn't work. I think you have to enhance competency, not replace it. What I mean by that is I've had people that— let's use marketing— that are in marketing and then are tasked with go do something that's outside your competency and go use AI to do it. And they'll go do it and they'll come back and they'll bring the results. And it just doesn't make any sense to somebody that is competent in that area. As an example, go and build me an accounting spreadsheet for the data on this research we've done. Well, that's probably a bad example. Go, not spreadsheets, but go build a process for the sales steps to market this product or sell this product. And you might go to AI and say, hey, what are the sales steps to market, to sell this product we just built in marketing? And you bring that back to a sales leader and they're going like, this makes zero sense. If you went to a sales leader and say, I want to sell this new marketing, this new widget, we think these are the top 3. Benefits of it, build us a sales process that we can enhance. That sales leader would come back and say, here's the sales process of how to sell it. And it would make all the sense in the world. So you just can't like use AI to replace competency because it doesn't work yet. Maybe soon it will, but it just doesn't in my opinion.

Well, and you're bringing up a great point. And someone we both know, Abdu'l-Wiss, said that in a talk, which is the number one mistake you could have is is not put it in the hands of a subject matter expert. The real power of the generative AI tools is, I think, unleashing, unlocking, you know, a subject that you're already well-versed in, but to get you think about things or to just get you to do it more quickly. And I think when people say, oh, your job's going to be replaced with AI, I mean, is it really? Because, you know, AI on its own in isolation, as you said, you can get into a lot, a lot of trouble. So you need that human element, sort of that quality check. And I agree, I mean, it probably will get a lot better, but I think people need to, need to see it as an enhancement rather than a replacement for their expertise.

Yeah, 100%. And marketing, because the marketing discipline deals with so many different expertise in the thought leadership that we have to market. We, we can't pretend to know how to do, how to be a subject matter expert in eye care, but we can 100% know how to market eye care messages. And when you try to, you know, dovetail, I'm a marketer, I know how to market eye care messages and then I'm also going to produce the subject matter content for that. That's when it breaks.

Yes.

And I think you see a lot of people trying to do that. Like, oh, I know I have this tool that is an expert in everything, and therefore I assume that it is accurate and I'll market it. And it's not.

Right. And I think one thing that's getting a little bit of a bad rap is just the mountain of garbage that can be created in terms of content marketing. When you get into sort of the SEO game and it's all about having long-form content, a lot of content, I think marketing teams are starting to lose sight of quality versus quantity. Certainly there's a huge lift in terms of quantity that you gain from using AI, but I'm really scared actually that there's just going to be so much garbage out in the universe that again, This AI is going to get a bad name. They're not going to want to use it. They're going to say, oh, did you write that with AI? My biggest pet peeve is people say, oh, did you write that with AI? Well, yeah, but guess what? I gave AI all the important inputs. It just put it in a pretty little box for me. I literally, Joe, I don't think I do anything without running it through AI. I always feel like it could be said better. I try and hit all the important points. I question myself. I asked AI, you know, am I missing anything? But yeah, to your point, like, if you're not an eye care specialist, you should not be writing content marketing on eye care. Huge mistake.

Oh yeah, big mistake.

And it's obvious. I mean, it's so obvious.

Well, we've all, we've all read content that we go, that was AI generated, right? It has a certain, like, format. Like it's got perfect number of characters per paragraph. I mean, it's just, that's not human generated. And at some point, we're at a glance, you like dismiss it.

Yeah.

I just talked to the president of a large organization and she was sharing with me that she actually got an email inbox that piqued her attention. It's like, oh, this This is a good headline, right? Subject line. And then when she opened it up, as she started reading, it became more and more obvious to her that, you know, it was personalized. So it had pulled her LinkedIn content. That's what kind of caught her attention. But then, but it was 2 job descriptions old, like 2 years earlier. It was referencing something she did. And then as she moved forward, it like transposed her last name with her title. And, you know, by the end of the The read, it was like something that AI did a great job creating a good subject header line that caught her attention, destroyed the value of that sender because the rest of it was crap, right? She's like, this was obviously AI-generated email marketing. That's awful. Open rates are up, and if that's the only metric you're measuring, maybe it was optimized for open rates, exactly. Not actually working.

Yep, I think having the right KPIs is going to be essential in terms of your strategy when you're leveraging AI. You know, one thing we haven't talked about, but I want to make sure we did it, you know, especially for creative teams and brand messaging, one huge advantage and, and one that just shocks me that more marketing organizations don't use internally is ChatGPT has made it so easy to build your own GPT. And what I've experimented with recently is just loading up a brand messaging guide that I created. And in that way, so if I have, let's say, a more junior person on my staff who wants to create content, it's kind of like me putting some, some parameters around what's going to be written. So it kind of cleans it up a little bit. But what I really like about that idea for creative teams is it's a good way to keep consistency from one person to another in terms of messaging. You know, it could be messaging, it could be something else. But I can see where in very large organizations that is a game changer because it's incredibly hard to maintain, you know, consistency of voice, consistency of brand across large teams.

Yeah. And you've got— I mean, there's nice tools out there that do that too, like Jasper.ai allows you to build multiple brands inside of it.. But the fact that you can do it all now in ChatGPT, you can do it on your own.

It's anything that, that's a little intimidating. And I don't mean to demean Jasper's business model. Like, what I like about Jasper, it makes it very easy. It just gives, it gives it to you on a silver platter. But I'm, I'm more in, again, so it's Jasper doing it yourself. I think thinking about using AI in that way, not necessarily the, you know, I think Bankers, for example, think, oh my God, a robot's going to talk to my customers. Well, that's ridiculous, you know, but you could have your whole brand messaging guide and voice loaded up so every single person that's going to work on any piece of content marketing for the bank is going to be kept in bounds. Um, that's the way I would love people to start thinking about AI and how to implement it.

Yeah, I'd agree. So one of the things that I've always thought was important for marketing was video. And as I think more and more about this content barrage we're going to get with AI, one thing that still remains to me as an easy standout is video. And, you know, little podcast videos like this can go a long way to generate content that AI will never be able to replicate. Okay, I mean, you can put your pictures inside of a tool and you can give it a script and it can create a video of Kim talking and it can probably do the same with me and it could probably create a video of us having interaction with each other. But that's all pre-written scripted stuff. The organic value of conversation inside of a video like a podcast, I think is going to be the new standout for content.

Interesting. No, I, I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's, it's thought leadership, right? We talk about this all the time. Um, and as you say, the more organic, real, clearly not scripted, not created by AI is going to have a bigger impact. You know, it's, it's, it's what will always sell and be effective in marketing is authenticity. And I think that's where, you know, where people are going to leverage AI, that they're going to have to be really careful to keep things authentic. And I think you can keep that in while using AI, but I think what you're addressing is that level of authenticity and again, always going to drive conversion.

Yeah, I think authenticity, but you could authentically also say this was AI created and be authentic. I think the change is going to go from thought leadership to thought creation. And because most of thought leadership is really just regurgitated SEO content over and over again to drives to the top of the funnel and therefore you're a thought leader because you've gamed the system or you have a certain amount of followers that then gives you the leadership position. But what's gonna win out in the end, I believe 100% is creative content and the only way you're gonna create it is humans are going to create it. There'll be a certain amount of regurgitated creation that comes out of AI, but true creative content, I think it's only going to be fostered by collaborative efforts between humans and AI. We could have an AI here helping us.

Right. And that's what I'm just going to say. I think I am excited to see the boundaries that will be pushed with collaboration between humans and AI. Some of the answers that are returned in AI just blow my socks off. Some are so stupid too, but then there'll be that one little, you know, little nugget. You go, oh, I never would have thought of that. It's just fantastic. But you know, I remind people too, AI was built on the thoughts of humans. I mean, you know, those large language models are built from all the content that's been put on the internet by all the— I always think of it as every human in the world's brain that was ever on the internet is now helping me. On my problem. That's the way I, I get so excited, you know. I, I, I would much rather come up with an idea with 10 other people than just me sitting here. It's always going to be better with 10 other people. We'll think of hundreds of millions of people. I mean, that's really what AI is doing. I mean, what is not exciting about that?

Yeah, it is really exciting. And, uh, I'm an engineer by schooling. And one of the formulas that I learned at the very beginning of, actually my fourth, beginning of my senior year was in equals out. And it became the overriding formula for all of the work we did that year when it came to process engineering and reactor design. At the end of the day, what you put in equals what you put out. And everything that happens in the, in this, in this, in the middle is a factor of the input. If we shut off human brains and only had AI, we have eliminated the input of creative juices, and so we'll never get better outcomes. We're going to always have to have creative inputs from humans as part of this process in order for us to get more output. We'll reach a finite amount of value and output from AI unless we keep inserting more input of creative juices. And they have to come from humans. That's my theory. Now, I could go even deeper in engineering because then there's this plus accumulation minus depreciation conversation, which is around energy. But let's just keep it at in equals out.

When I think what we're talking about right now is kind of part of that internal messaging for people to really understand what is AI, how is a large language model built? It's built on the backs of human brains. You know, it's just like computers, you know, computers, computers are created by humans, you know, create.

And so, um, yeah, it's built, it's built in, um, a bit not by all humans' brains, but only those humans that participated, right, in archiving their conversations on Reddit, right, or other databases captured human conversation and brains. But all of those that are absent haven't participated yet or never did. So historically, we've kind of lost that opportunity. But moving forward, are there more inputs? Are there different ways that we can add to these language models that we haven't done yet?

That's an interesting area. Well, and so you're making me think of something too, which I think is an issue that should be raised. Just like history is his story, it's however it was told and by whom it was told. If you think about what you just said and that large language models were built on anyone who actually participated in the internet, well, if there are large swaths of the human voice that are not participating, we still don't have the full picture. So for me, it's actually more exciting to think we're just scratching the surface. But I think responsibly we should all remember, and natural language processing engineers work on this all day, we've got to think about the biases that are inherently built into any large language model. They have to be because we're humans. We all have our own bias, our own voice. And I think that's going to be another interesting field of work as well is figuring out how to unbiased a model. But again, bias is so subjective too.

Exactly right. So you've got raw data, but inside of the raw data, there is a bias built in it because it's absent of other raw data that didn't get entered into it at the beginning. So you've got this layer of bias data, let's call it. And then you've got the interpretive layer. So it's the people that are training the models, right, are trying to tell others that, you know, this needs to be weighted more because it's— I mean, just think of the, just the political landscape. Like, there's so much disinformation out there.

Yeah.

How do you tell a language model that, no, this is true and this is not true? So there's just so many areas where bias can show up. And at the end of the day, you get a model that's not perfect.

Right. And social media is dealing with this very issue now is what version of the truth? Well, you and I can have a different version of the same truth. I read a study that the way in terms of political orientation that one, a more liberal brain literally is wired and thinks differently than a more conservative brain. And that the human race is literally— I keep saying literally— split almost down the middle, which is fascinating to me. But it's also a little intimidating because, again, like, you're never going to eliminate bias. You just aren't. I think being conscious of it is really important. It's why I actually wrote something recently, but Even, you know, not only having different perspectives, but different genders is incredibly important in terms of efficacy of teams, how they make decisions, how they collaborate. And so I think even we were talking about tiger teams and who should be on a tiger team should be cross-functional. But I absolutely also believe they should be split down the middle in terms of gender. I think it's really, really important and there's so much data to support that. It's actually kind of shocking because there's so much data. Like, why aren't we all thinking along those lines? I had to slip that in too because, because it is important when you're addressing, you know, bias and the way we think and what, you know, whose version of the truth. I mean, we even had this discussion recently, right, on our branding where I thought it was too male-centric. And, you know, other part of the team was like, no, I think it's awesome. I'm like, I think it's horrible. You know, so I think you need those competing perspectives when you're, when you're using these types of models.

Yeah, I think you're right. And, you know, AI in its purest form probably is less biased than anybody else, but in its trained form, yeah, probably more biased.

Sure. Which it's based on the, the input, whatever they're pulling from the internet, right? So I look forward to more of humanity participating on the internet. I look forward— I think the more that technology, the democratization of technology across the world, I think will really be a positive for AI going forward.

Yeah, I, I would concur. I would concur. So as a female entrepreneur, what are some of the, um, lessons that you learned that you would like to impart on other aspiring female entrepreneurs?

Oh gosh, there are a lot. Um, gosh, well, first of all, I would say read my newsletter. I'd like— did— no, um, for me, I, I don't— I really— I'm not just saying this— I don't think of male and female. I think of fit. I think of I look at how people work together. And for me, the most important thing other than just ability is how do people collaborate? Are they open to new ideas? Are they, you know, are they closed-minded? Are they, you know, are they bullies? Are they, you know, and so for me, it's the number one thing that has to be right for me, for me to feel successful, because, you know, especially like if you're starting a new venture, it's so difficult and the rate of failure is so high if you're not clicking and fitting in a way that you, you know, feel is right for you. You're not going to be successful. And again, you know, take it away from male and female, but I think in particular, I, I feel as a woman I'm very sensitive to that. It's really important to me, and it's hard for me to get invested if I don't feel that connection. And that, you know, how you define what that connection is going to be different for every person. And this is good advice for men too, but as a female, I, I'm, I think, particularly sensitive to it because I am all about collaboration. Um, so if that answers your question, but I, I would say that's the most important for me.

I think I would agree, like, in general, fit's important for So many different things. And I, I know you're, uh, you have a newsletter on, on being a female founder, and I think it's really important that we foster that, um, culture of enhancing the numbers of female founders we have. It's, it's, it's not proportionate to the number of females we have, and that's— this is not a new story, right? Evolving story, but I do think it's important. And so if you, if you do have some, some words of wisdom or some thoughts that you would want to share with other female aspiring female founders, I would love to hear that. Things that you've— lessons you've learned. Following your newsletters, I've read them. They're great. And it talks a lot about real, you know, like real interaction, real challenges, real, real issues that, that are different for females than they are for males. And it doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but there are certainly differences. And how do we increase the number of successful female founders? I think that's ultimately the goal, right?

Yeah. And I think getting funding is an issue too. I think in the last one that I wrote, you look at the statistics, female startups are woefully underfunded. Funded versus, versus males. I mean, this is just— this is such a big boat that we need to steer. I don't want to use Titanic, but it's going to take time. Um, I truly believe that change is coming. It's inevitable. I think, you know, if I look at my daughters, they have such— they have such self-belief. Um, but for me, you know, I think belief that you have the most unbelievable idea and that you can take it to fruition. It really is the most important thing, you know, male or female, um, figuring out how to navigate. Like, so I've been to a lot of seminars, I guess, that were put on by female founders, and one thing that kind of bugged me is they always talked about how, you know, we communicate differently, we present differently, um, My perspective's a little different. I think you need to read a room. You need to understand who is your audience. If I'm going to talk to a foundation whose mission is to fund female startups, my presentation is probably gonna be different than if I'm walking to a room with Goldman Sachs and there's a bunch of, you know, 50 to 60-year-old guys with a smirk on their face because this is the, you know, the 20th startup presentation that they've had. I am going just as any man would. I'm going to read the room and understand who my audience is. So I think women can make the mistake of trying to assert how— this is going to sound terrible— assert how they are and the way they communicate rather than saying, how do I need to communicate to this person so they can hear my message and get excited about my idea?

I think that's very astute. And I'll share another story that's kind of shares a similar message. And it was— there was an organization, I can't remember the name of it, but it's based out of San Francisco, and it was all about getting more females on corporate boards. Oh yeah. And what they discovered in their research and in their work is that there are other— there are mostly men on corporate boards. But that, you know, that's, that's a no-duh. But most new board members come from referrals. And so the pathway for females to get on corporate boards is a referral from a male. And so it's not good or bad, but it was kind of this aha moment. So their mission then is, let's go out and let's talk to males that are currently on corporate boards and find out what it takes them to introduce a female to the opportunities. And they were surprised that there was really no built-in bias. Males just know other males more, right? So it was all about, we just need to connect board members with females that are worthy of being on a board. Connect, connect, connect. And let's just increase the male board member's sphere of influence to have other women leaders in their sphere so that when that opening comes up, there's a bigger chance that they're going to say, oh, Kim will be great for that versus Joe, because they just never knew Kim before, right?

Even— I think even raising awareness of the issue, there wasn't a— it wasn't a purposeful thing, we're gonna go out and get a man. It's just men tend to hang out with men, and, and, you know, most business— you know, the majority of high-powered business leaders are men. And so it just— it's kind of like, okay, well, who are your friends? These guys you're gonna recommend. And so raising awareness, and then I, I am all for initiatives where it's like, look, there are so many smart women out there, let's go find them. I see nothing wrong with that because you gotta, gotta break the cycle. It doesn't mean that they're less worthy, it just means that you're, you're conscious of the fact that, oh, you're right, I only socialize with these many people, these kind of people. Um, so that's, that's interesting. I'm like, I, I'm not surprised to hear that, but I love to hear that, that awareness that is becoming a thing, I guess.

Yeah, and it's, uh, the organization has done a really good job of helping women get on board because they just kind of broke it down to blocking and tackling. I'll also add, like, I, I've been on a board locally of entrepreneurs, EO, EO Nebraska, and EO's a global organization of entrepreneurs, and our chapter had a, um, a lower percentage of females than other chapters our size. And, and so it was a, it was important for me that we increased that percentage. And knowing what I knew, which is board members usually add other people to board members, I think the same thing can be said about membership. Membership usually grows by referrals also. So in order for us to kind of, you know, not to break the cycle, but to add more female entrepreneurs, we just had to make an intention that we were going to go talk to, outside of a warm introduction, female entrepreneurs. And so we put an intention out there, let's just go talk to more female entrepreneurs. And over the last 3 years, we've almost doubled the percentage of female entrepreneurs in our organization and on our board. And next year will be our first female president of EON Nebraska ever. And so, you know, you can make a difference. Uh, it does just take an intention and an understanding of how the world works.

Well, and what's interesting, the, the flip side of that is I, I've also noticed that, um, because they're more comfortable with other women— like, I've joined a lot of, you know, local women's, women's business leaders networks, but they were only women. And I, I remember one I actually left because it bothered me so much that, that they— it was like they were afraid to mingle. I don't know, like it was a safe space. And I'm like, what do you mean safe? It's not unsafe to go, you know, I'm going to the Chamber of Commerce or whatever. And they just felt safe. And so I would— I, I think it's also kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like, you know, if you, you want— you need to make more connections, okay, you need these male-dominated boards to make outreach to women. I think the same time, you know, strong women entrepreneurs and executives should also make the effort to reach out to more men. It's, it's a little scary sometimes. It's not as safe, but it's— that's— it goes both ways.

Yeah, for sure. Well, I love the conversation around, uh, female entrepreneurs because I have 3 daughters and, and I want them to— and they're all growing and some are in, you know, very entrepreneurial-minded, and I just want to see those opportunities continue to rise for them as they have over the years and into the future. And that's very important. I also like to, you know, kind of brag about Your CMO for just a minute. We have a very diverse group at Your CMO, and I think it's representative of, you know, what an ideal organization might look like. I mean, probably 50/50 CMOs, female to male. We've got people of color, we've got different, um, you know, gender, uh, uh, preferences. And, you know, we've got a very diverse group, and it makes us, I think, a better brain trust for addressing the issues of clients and of our CMOs. And how do we help each other out? And we grow. We all grow to be better because of it. If you can capture our brain trust into a large language model that AI people could break, you know, breach our marketing minds just in that group, I think you'll have better source results than a more homogeneous group of CMOs in different organizations that are, you know, much more of the same.

So no, I agree that the collaborative nature of your CMO, I, I That was one of the things that drew me to the group.

Well, we're super glad to have you in the group. You're one of our few CMOs that have really embraced AI, and I'm so excited to see what you're doing with it, how you're growing with it, and how you're leading with it. And for everything that you shared on our show today, I want to thank you very much. You've been a great guest.

Thank you, Kim.

Thank you, Joe. And that's a wrap.

There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at FractionalC-SuiteRetreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at Y-O-R-C-M-O dot com. Your CMO dot com. Spelled wrong on purpose.