Creating Meaty Content - Wendy Lieber - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode #56

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be.

Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy.

Welcome. I'm excited to have today's guest. She is someone who has started her business to solve a huge marketing problem, creating real connections. She's a revolutionary marketer who has the ability to revamp a company's content strategy. As a content concierge, she helps brands along all steps of the process from strategy to execution. She is co-founder of Content Bacon. Welcome, Wendy Lieber. Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me, Joseph.

All right, I have a standard question, but before we answer that, I, I want to know why bacon? How did you come up with Content Bacon?

Well, come on, everyone loves bacon, right? If you don't like bacon, you're wrong. And so it's just an easy way for me to filter out people that I don't want to do business with. But seriously, bacon makes everything better. Our content makes everything better. So it was just the perfect combination of two words that tell a good microstory.

Yeah, I love that name. It sticks with you too. Everybody sees it, remembers it, and is intrigued by it. So, well, great. Well, the question I like to start with, with each guest is, what is something that you think all— anyone in the C-suite should be thinking about these days? What's going on in the world where you think we should bring some attention to in the C-suite?

Telling your story in a way that is compelling to all your different audiences is something that sometimes as you get higher up in a company, you might get removed from that. And I think it's really important to be asking the question, you know, what are we doing to attract, you know, new audience members? What are we doing to engage? What are we doing with our current customers, past customers? What are we doing with our referral sources? So I think just being really interested in what's going on and what's being communicated, because again, I, I believe every company has a compelling story to tell. Most are doing a rather poor job or maybe not doing it at all. And so that would be part one, and then it would probably be I'd be remiss not to mention, you know, AI is everywhere today. Everyone's talking about it. Everyone thinks it's going to replace everyone. And be interested, be curious, be engaged, but don't be distracted. Don't let it distract you from your core business, connecting as a human being. Like, be, be an advocate, be a stand that AI is here to serve us, not us serve AI. And so that would probably be Like, I think just all around, we should all really embrace that and really be interested in that conversation.

Yeah, AI, we can definitely touch on that today because it is the hot topic. But I want to dig deeper into your thoughts on telling your story. And at the C-suite level, a lot of times, you know, there's clarity in vision and mission there, but it doesn't get disseminated always well to the rest of the organization. From a marketing perspective, there's pretty clear messaging that we want to deliver from the C-suite that doesn't actually get to our audiences. How do you go from strategy execution? What are some of the steps or things that C-suite members should be thinking about?

Actually doing it, having a strategy, having a plan that you're involved with, determining how you want to communicate with your audience, making sure that you're adding value, solving problems, educating, that, and, and those things are, are clear to the rest of your organization, I think is super important. I think a lot of times in the C-suite we can become very focused on, you know, ROI, right? And ROI is super important and we all know that, but your message, your story creating relationships is, is what creates that ROI. And in order to do that, you actually have to, you know, be interested in, you know, how do we communicate that, what are we communicating, and be, be willing to invest in that so that you can build those relationships and that you can get that ROI. So I, I think the steps to doing it, you know, not to be overly simplistic, are just to do it, you know, have a plan, be interested, be involved. So often the way a leader can, can share a vision can be so inspiring. And, you know, being able to use that as the foundation for additional content, whether it's, you know, to generate awareness, generate interest, you know, keep your current customers aware of what's going on. Like, so, so often there's so many exciting things happening at the company level, but we're all so busy doing, doing, doing that we don't stop to share. And that's It's where often the magic can be.

How much do you get involved with plans for internal audience communication and content versus external marketing audience communication?

That to me is super important. It became more important as teams became more and more remote, where companies that, you know, were used to being able to hold informal company meetings or, you know, just walk from office to office, where all of a sudden they didn't have that at their fingertips. And so having kind of more structured internal communication became more important. So we do a lot there from a couple different perspectives. One, making sure that kind of your hiring materials, your culture, that that's— there's a way for potential employees to get a glimpse of that, because again, often that's hidden, right? It's like you don't know it until you're part of the inner circle. And in this competitive marketplace, being able to communicate that so that you are, you know, differentiated from maybe others in your field. But then also having kind of like regular cadences with your team if you are now spread out and remote is super important. It could be as simple as a weekly, you know, maybe version of a podcast, or, you know, we're very big on Slack in our organization and have different channels. But Often when I am involved on those channels, you know, I get a lot of feedback from my team how valuable it is, and it just is this constant reminder of just how important it is to have those touch points for your, you know, internal as well as external team.

Yeah, for sure. So when you think of content from a marketing perspective externally, what all do you get involved with? Do you go not just creating the content and copy, but you get into what are the right tools to use to, to share, and what are the right networks to be on, and what should be lead gen content versus branding and awareness content. Is that stuff that you work on as part of your strategy with, with folks?

Yeah, I mean, our best customers come to us typically with their marketing strategy somewhat planned out. And then we, we really support the marketing strategy plan with, with a content strategy or plan. And all of those things you mentioned are part of that. And we refer to it as, you know, the flywheel. So we look at, you know, what are you doing to generate more awareness, attract more strangers? And there's obviously different types of content that support that in different channels to get that content out. So that could be more organic, you know, your own website, your blog articles, your social media. Then there's what are you doing to engage with your audience? So like, let's say you're getting lots of traffic to your website, but no one's doing anything. It's like, well, is there something for them to do? Like, a lot of times companies' websites can often be just like brochureware, and there's not really a way to engage. And that's so important today that your, your, you know, your website is a place where people can come, come back to and do something. So, you know, we work with companies to figure out what those things might be at different stages, because not everyone's always ready to book a call, right? It's not all about, you know, that sometimes they just want to opt into a listen to a podcast or a newsletter. So creating that, and then, you know, what's going on with your CRM. I, I love working with companies that have like just a gold mine in their, in their database, but they've just not done anything with. It's like one of those assets that's there. And so that's something, you know, we work on is figuring out how to use what you already have to, to create some gold. And then, you know, again, so often companies completely ignore their current customers. You know, like you get a customer and then you stop telling them what— like you may be doing what you need to do to support whatever they're, they're working on with you, but you forget to communicate the new things you're doing or the additional things that you could do for them that maybe they weren't ready to do when they first came on board with you. So that constant customer communication, I think, is also just so important for retention and growth. So we help strategize all of that or parts of that, because not every company is ready for all of those things at once. But over time, our hope is that we can get that flywheel spinning and you're just in, in momentum mode.

Now, once I hear you say SEO, so how important is those kind of technical SEO components in creating the right content for external audiences?

I think it's really important. I mean, we always say we write for humans first, search engines second, which is our belief. Because, you know, if someone does land on your content because they found it through keyword search and it's, you know, pardon my French, shitty content, it's not going to do any, any good for you. But we certainly use an SEO approach to determining what are the right topics to be talking about. We structure it. When you're working with an SEO company, you know, content is usually one of the key pieces of an overall SEO strategy. So that's where we come in. But we are not an SEO company. We don't do the backlinking strategy. There's a host of things we don't do. We do the content piece to ensure that the things that your audience might be looking for, or, you know, you've got the appropriate content for. I think a great first step for companies that are like, you know, I'm not really doing much in this, where do I start? I want to do this on my own. Is— I love the, the frequently asked questions, just coming up with all the things your, your prospects or your customers are asking you, or you wish they would ask you. That is a very effective way to create a great content strategy and just start writing content around that. Because if someone's asking you. They're, they're typing it into— I used to say they're typing it into Google, they're typing it into Google ChatGPT now. So, you know, having, having the answers on your digital platforms is really important, and it's just a great way to also just stay sharp and like, what, what are our, you know, our customers asking us? What are our prospects asking us? What do we wish they would ask us. And that's another thing about content that I love is like the more you do it, it's like the better as a company it makes you because, you know, communicating is not easy. Communicating effectively is even harder. And so having like a really strong process internally, like how do we talk about things? How do we do it in a clear, concise manner? How do we take complicated things and make them simple? You know, how do we make things entertaining? Like those are not all easy things to, to do, but the more you do them, the better I think internally and externally you're able to articulate things.

Yeah, for sure. I like how you said, all right, we write for humans first, SEO second. But I'm curious, with AI and ChatGPT, when does that start to play into your writing? I know I'm digging deep with another person we both know, Abduis from— Yeah. From EO and we've actually started a bit of a consultancy called 7ways.ai and it's at the tipping point of trying to understand how you get found when people search you or something that you want to be found for on ChatGPT. We're discovering what worked for SEO doesn't work for the AI. It's actually much more of the human element that they're trying to discover. The fact that you're already writing for humans, first, I think puts your content above others that have been writing first and foremost for SEO. Because keywords aren't being searched. Right. Meta tags aren't being searched. Right now, it's doing a light search of the web, usually bringing 1 or 2 topics back, and it wants to understand what that stuff means based on the context of your prompt. So there's a big mystery of how the algorithm is going to end up playing out for people writing content for AI in the future. What have you discovered or been thinking about?

I mean, definitely been thinking about it. I don't have any answers. I've seen some of the stuff that you and Abe have been doing. I'm fascinated by it. I definitely think it's, you know, it's all disruptive. And I think it's, it's, it's going to have a lot of great things that come out of it. It's going to have some things that aren't great. And, you know, we're at the end of the day, you know, our mission is, you know, we want to, we want to help our customers tell stories that resonate with their target audience and that connect with our target audience to get them to, you know, take the actions they want them to take. And so obviously, AI is going to play a role in that. I don't know exactly to what extent. You know, I've said before, and like, in some ways, I don't care how the content gets created. I just want to make sure it's effective at, you know, connecting and helping move things forward. I guess my personal preference is I think when a human's involved, when there's a personal connection, when the heart is involved, it's better. Um, but I'm also, you know, at this point right now where I'm like, you know what, I just want to be open so that I I can just make sure that, you know, I'm guiding our company correctly and I'm, I'm guiding our customers correctly. So I feel like we're just in, in a new territory where, you know, I don't, I don't have all the answers. Yeah. Questions though. Yeah.

It's a discovery process for sure. I think when people are, uh, think about SEO and, and, um, AI today, the where their mind goes first is, oh, I can use AI to create all my content. I can use ChatGPT to build all my content and therefore my SEO will be better. And I don't necessarily believe that to be true or not true. I know Google says we don't care how it's created either, as long as it's compelling and the reader enjoys it and does something with it. We're looking at it from the other side, which is when someone does search through ChatGPT, how do you make sure your content is getting delivered to that search? There's a difference there. And whether it's written by a human or written by AI, I don't think that answers that question. Yeah, that's what we're trying to discover. I do know that the reason we named 7ways.ai, the reason we named it 7 ways, is that we asked ChatGPT, you know, how best to communicate with it, and they gave us 6 ways, and we figured the 7th way was the human element. And I think that's the key. It's still The humans are going to be the ones figuring out all of this. You're not going to be able to ask ChatGPT how to optimize my site for being found by you and get an accurate answer. It's still coming down to humans that are figuring this stuff out.

Yeah, I mean, I like to think that what's going to be most useful is going to win. And then it's like, okay, well then what creates the most useful content? And again, I think that it's ChatGPT is a great way to jumpstart a lot of that. It makes a lot of things easier. I think a lot of CEOs or people that maybe haven't been involved in the intricacies of content before go to ChatGPT and it can do something for them very quickly and they get kind of mesmerized by that and they think it's good when it really may not be or may not be effective. So I think we're still in a little bit of that like shiny object syndrome right now where so many people are just like, experimenting and mesmerized by it. But we've yet to see kind of what's coming out the other end and how all this new content that's being created so easily is actually providing value, or is it just providing more noise? And yeah, it's an interesting time.

So are there some AI tools that your team is using effectively that you can share?

Yeah, I mean, we're using a lot of tools. We've been using Jasper, you know, for a couple years now. We've been using some SEO tools. I think we use a whole host of them. Obviously, we use ChatGPT. We've been, you know, playing around with a lot of the AI PRMs, you know, the different prompts, like creating some of our own. There's probably a lot, a lot more that they're using and experimenting with. I mean, It's like the amount of stuff coming out, you know, every day, you know, we're just like, we're also using tools for our own operations side of the business, right? So there's like, what we do as a company, which is, you know, creating compelling content. But we're also a company, right, that's doing a lot of things like hiring. And, you know, so, you know, our team this week did some demo of something I don't remember We just had our, our, our leadership meeting earlier this morning, and they were, they were super excited about it. And we're actually looking at building some stuff. So there's a lot going on. You know, I think the way I'm looking at it is, you know, are there ways we can be more effective, more efficient, you know, faster, better, cheaper as an organization, which of course there are. And then I think that goes hand in hand with, are, are there tools that help us produce better, more compelling, more sticky content. And so, you know, we're looking at it from, from both perspectives to just, again, just make sure that as a company we're providing the most value to our customer base.

There's a lot of tools out there and new ones every day. It's hard to keep up. Good to hear you've got a few core ones that you've been using for a while. Jasper's one I've seen a lot of people been using for more than the last 6 months.

Yeah.

ChatGPT is the one everybody gets excited about. But the other question I have for you, so we have a fractional CMO firm. At your CMO, we've got 25 different fractional CMOs on the team right now. And a big thing for us is, is utilizing buyer interviews, and market research, but more customer customer interviews to generate those key insights that we think should then drive the messaging and content towards. So from those insights, we're under— we're uncovering what pain points are really there in their own words, and what they're really looking for in a product or service, what the decision criteria really is, as opposed to a lot of times it gets done in a boardroom where you you ask the owners or the marketing team or the salespeople what they think, and it's— there's a lot of correlation there. But when you hear it from the voice of the customer or from interviews with customers, um, you're more spot on. And then that drives the copy and the messaging. What kind of research do you do to support the messaging that you're building for your customers? I'm curious.

One of the things I'm so proud of with our company is our processes and systems. We really have amazing processes and systems, and our onboarding process is one of those. So when we onboard a new customer, you know, we have a questionnaire, which is, you know, always evolving and changing. So, you know, part of it is, is input that our customer gives us. Certainly during the sales process, some of that information is getting captured and carried forward, but so some is, you know, customer-supplied, certainly competitor information, industry information. So there's, you know, there's all of that, but then we also are very much in line with what, you know, you just spoke about, you know, doing subject matter expert interviews, you know, really hearing from the voice of the customer. And, you know, factoring that in. So it's really not one thing, it's a host of different things, which also goes to, you know, what are the goals? Because making sure we understand the goals of the company, who they're trying to reach, learning about that, you know, audience, what's important to them. Because again, sometimes the customer thinks something is so important from their perspective when their buyer isn't interested in that. They're interested in something else. And so trying to bridge the gap there. So we spend a lot of time in research, evaluating what we do against the goals. But always the best research we get is when we can connect with the customer or their customers and and hear from them what's important, you know, what problems they solve, what pain points they solve, and, and use that as, you know, some of the, the foundational content to, to build on.

Yeah, that's good. Um, so how did you start this business, Wendy?

Yeah, so I was in the, um, EO Accelerator program at the time with a different company called Athena Marketing. I was doing just kind of more high-level strategic marketing consulting, if you will, and had a nice-sized business doing well, but it wasn't the game I wanted to play. It was very much dependent on me. I didn't have good processes and systems. So even, you know, trying to hire people was challenging because it was all kind of in my head. You know, I did it always, you know, new approach every single time. All the things you shouldn't do, you know, when you're building a business., you know, I made it very dependent on me, which at the time was my goal. Like, I want every client to feel like they can call me at 3 o'clock in the morning. And it's like, you know, be careful what you wish for. Yeah. So when I was in the accelerator program, which for your audience is a program designed to, to scale businesses to get above $1 million, I really became clear that Athena Marketing was not the company I wanted to grow and scale. And I really started to, to see how companies were struggling with their content creation and how important it was, you know, becoming and was going to continue to become. So I started dabbling with subscriptions with like my current client base just to see how they, you know, were received and, you know, what, what impact it had. And it was like super simple, like all, you know, all or most of my clients were super interested. Willing to, you know, give me a credit card, just charge them every month. Didn't have to have those, you know, heavy lift ROI conversations every month. It was more like they slept better knowing that, hey, at least my blog, my social media, my newsletter is happening consistently. And so that was kind of like the impetus for the idea. And then I met my partner in Accelerator who had a branding company was kind of going through the same thing, didn't really want to grow and scale that business, was doing some interesting things on the content side with videos, whiteboard videos at the time. So long story short, we combined forces, you know, gave birth to Content Bacon while we were in the accelerator program together. And then within a year, you know, was able to grow that company and, you know, graduate into EO. We, we wore dual hats for a while. Like, we were doing content baking. He was continuing his company. I was continuing mine. And then we just had an aha moment one day. I remember I was like walking around in New Jersey and I was like, enough. Like, I want to do this full time. I want to go all in. This is where it's at. And, um, so yeah, just, you know, 100% put all my effort and him too. And Content Bacon, and here we are.

That's awesome. Um, so let me— this is me just going to ask you some nerd entrepreneur questions. Yeah, I love it because I love those stories. So how do you, um, how do you have your team? Is it all employees? Do you— in the marketing space, a lot of times it's freelancers, or it's a combination?

So it is a combination. Um, there are a couple of key things. So when we started, you know, we thought we were going to have this office you know, full of creatives. I like envisioned this like Saturday Night Live writing room where I peek my head in every once in a while and just creativity off the charts. So we realized early on that, you know, to hire the best talent, geography, you know, shouldn't be an issue. So, you know, we were a virtual remote company before the pandemic, but we're a combination. So our leadership team, which is you know, I am the CEO. I have an integrator, or I refer to her as my chief of staff. We have a chief of content, chief of production, HR, and, you know, VP of marketing. So that's, you know, kind of our core team. We have editors and our account managers, we refer to them as strategists. So they're all part of our full-time team. And then, yeah, we do have 50, 60 freelancers at any given time that work underneath us because we work on so many different industries and even within industries, different levels of expertise. So our ability to build the right teams based on, you know, our, our customer is super important. But we do have a pretty core freelance team that's been working with us a while, but we're always adding to that. And if anyone's ever worked with writers or creatives, especially in the freelance, it's, you know, they can be amazing and consistent and then poof, all of a sudden they're, they're gone. So having like a freelance team where like our editing team, our strategy team is more fixed really helps with any disruption. So we've learned that there's really no single point of failure where again, a lot of companies that have maybe worked directly with a writer or a writing team, they've experienced the pain of like, oh yeah, and then they're like, you know, they're gone and, you know, it's such a headache to try to rebuild that. So we've kind of developed ways to minimize the risk of that.

That's great. How do you differentiate between your chief of content and your chief of production? I was curious.

Yeah. So chief of content is really like responsible for the actual product. So all the writers and editors are underneath her. And then our chief of production is really more like traffic, deadlines, you know, making sure that all— everything's running within budget and within timelines. So they, they work hand in hand, but that's the, that's the distinction.

Okay, that makes sense.

Good, I'm glad it makes sense. So I'm saying, is this going to make sense?

Yeah, no, it makes great sense. And somebody I've ran I have a video production company that's done some creative and I completely get it. The skittishness of freelancers is real. And I tell people all the time, it's really hard to hire anybody who's part-time remote, or actually it doesn't matter if it's remote. Part-time is just the hardest thing to hire for because it's inconsistent. They're part-time for a reason and many of those reasons mean they won't be here in 6 months. So having that, those layers that protect the end user, to cut your customer from that pain, super smart, makes a lot of sense to me.

I mean, we're constantly looking at our structure, you know, like our, you know, accountability chart and structure. I mean, it's something that we're always looking at to make sure that it does make the most sense and is, you know, providing the most, most value for our customers and We've definitely pivoted a few times and, you know, or tried some things that didn't work. So it's, it's always up for discussion. But this model has been in, in place for, you know, a while, and it seems to be working really well.

So who ends up being the AI champion in your organization? That's the, that's the question we have in our own, like, who should own AI?

I have a couple different thoughts. I mean, I think as the, the CEO visionary, I have to own it in terms of you know, how do we view it? What's our view on it? And what's our investment around it? Like, what are we going to actually do? So I feel like I own it from that perspective. Really, everyone a little bit is, is owning it from their respective area. But my, my key partner in this right now is my chief of content, you know, where she and I are constantly evaluating new tools. I'll send things to her, she'll evaluate it, let me know. So she and I are really the key owners. But I mean, you know, it does, you know, I guess, keep me up a little bit at night. I mean, not much really keeps me up, but right now, and maybe it keeps me up more from like excitement, creativity, if there is another way, a better way to be approaching this because, you know, it is I think it probably warrants more attention than it gets right now. And again, we're running a business, you know, and so I think, you know, having that, that time for deep dive on just innovation in general, not necessarily AI, but anything, I think is always like a fine balance because, you know, it's just important, you know, I don't want to be the block buster on the block, you know, seeing Netflix eat our lunch.

Well, especially with content, 'cause I think that's something that people think AI can replace. Oh, I don't need a copywriter anymore. I mean, that's, I've heard that so many times. I don't believe it, but I've heard it. And that's, I think what people will discover is they still need the human no matter how much of the final content's getting created by AI, that there's gotta be a human that runs it. So as a content production company, you've got the humans and you can, you know, I would imagine you can do, you're a lot more efficient and productive with the AI tools than anybody who's never written content before is. Like that's the thing. Like it's gonna take somebody else twice as much time to get the right content out of AI than you would be able to do getting out of AI.

100%. Yeah, 'cause it starts with, you know, what is the strategy? Like what, What are you going to write about? What do you know? And it's also like being creative and innovative. And a lot of the content that we do comes, you know, from proprietary information and not proprietary, like it can't go out there, but it's just like in order to get at it, you have to ask the right questions. AI is not going to be able to tell you that right away. So, you know, one of the things we say is, you know, Like being able to share your story in a way that others won't is really important. And, you know, cuz a lot of businesses are, you know, might feel like commodity type businesses, right? So how do you create content that's not just, you know, same old stuff that's out there? And because like the, like the world doesn't need more of that, but again, it takes something to create that and, That's not AI-generated today. Well, it's AI, actual intelligence-generated.

Yeah, intelligence.

I like that.

So one of the things you said earlier was that you're pretty much a remote, uh, organization, virtual. We are too. Uh, that's one thing I'm very curious about, are, um, ways that companies are successfully leading those remote workers and creating a culture that is distributed remotely. It's a hard thing to do. It's— well, maybe hard's the wrong word. It's much different than the traditional way of building inside of four walls. So what are some of the things that you do to kind of support that strong culture and team building and development through this remote workforce that you have?

Yeah, I think some of the core things, the basics, are, you know, we do a daily huddle. I think that has been so important. You know, we, we have our, our, our meeting rhythms, and so I think the consistency in those is really so important. And, and, you know, the, the daily huddle is really, you know, a place where we connect and align. And I think that We've been doing that for— I can't tell you how many, many years, but that's been one of the most important things is just the overall meeting rhythms. And then again, I mentioned we use Slack so that, you know, it just feels like you've always got the team at your fingertips. You know, we've got some fun channels on our Slack, so it's not just all business. There's, you know, where people share funny things. So, but I think really having a very strong purpose and being able to articulate that to the team, and then we just, you know, it's just kind of reiterated. It's really just the basics, the meeting rhythms, knowing who you are, who you target, just pounding that in day in, day out, um, is what creates that. And, and, you know, accountability. Right? It's like, you know, holding people accountable, rewarding people when they're, you know, when they're, they're winning, but also, like, being willing to have the hard discussions when it's not working. I guess I don't know that I have the, the, the secret answer. But those are the things that I feel like have worked, have worked well for us thus far. But it's, it's always, again, something on our mind, because, you know, I mean, it's like if we didn't have to, to worry about employees or customers, business would be easy, right? Yeah, exactly. But having the, the right fit team members, you know, is, is so important. And, um, yeah, it's, it's definitely one of, one of the, the biggest challenges is, you know, as we grow, you know, being able to, you know, bring those people in fast enough, onboard them fast enough, you know, it's It's part of the, I guess, the privilege of being an entrepreneur, having to deal with all those things.

Yeah. Is most of your workforce US-based, or have you ventured into some outsourcing to nearshore or offshore?

Yeah, all of the above. The bulk is US-based. We've also done some nearshore talent out of Mexico. We've got a couple team members out of the Philippines. And we've done really all of those relationships through other companies. And so versus direct, and which I feel like helps because, you know, then we're, we're really working with, with a partner who's helping us, you know, bring in the right talent. So, you know, we are, I will say, our writing, editing talent Well, that's not true anymore. It used to be fully US-based, but we have found like some amazing like technical writers and, and other locations. So we've kind of opened that up. We used to be a little bit more picky about that because I think there was a perception that, you know, like if you found like really inexpensive content, it was usually because they were, you know, getting writers out of these other countries that weren't, you know, English speaking was not there. Their native language. But again, we've found some pretty amazing talent in other countries now. So we're open to all, but the bulk of our team is still US-based.

Sounds a lot like us at the CMO business. All of our CMOs are US-based, but we have support team members that are highly talented in both Mexico and the Philippines. I actually, with two other EOs, we started our own business in the Philippines to supply talent to other people because between the three of us, we had enough talent to make it make sense. There is value in having that third party, that partner that you have, at least from our perspective. Our company in the Philippines is providing an additional layer of accountability and culture and teamwork. That we also provide. It's like a double source for those employees to have. They feel like they're part of the third party and that they're part of your company too. And that's a really nice benefit. And then we have an EOR that we use to find people in Mexico and they're great to work with as well. So I'm a big fan about offshore, whether it's offshore or nearshore, outsourcing makes a ton of sense right now companies.

Yeah, I agree, I agree. It's, it's, it's fun too to have, you know, different time zones, different cultures. Oh gosh, yeah, it's really great. Yeah, I actually traveled to the Philippines to meet, you know, some of our team last, last November, which was really great.

Oh well, if you go again, let me know.

I will.

I get over there 2 or 3 times a year. Yeah. So what do you like to do for fun, Wendy, when you're not working?

I love to work out. My new obsession is I love doing infrared sauna and cold plunge. It's become like an obsession. Like, I'm going 4 or 5 times a week. So I love just doing anything that makes me feel good, feel healthy. I love movies. I love, I love cooking. I love, you know, like good food. I love travel. I'm just getting ready to go on a trip with my family. We're taking a cruise out of Southampton, England to Ireland, Iceland, and Scotland. So super excited about that. And of course, I love— I was in Cape Town recently for the Global Leadership Conference. So, but yeah, I just love hanging out with friends, meaty conversations, sizzling conversations.

That's awesome. I missed you in Cape Town. Um, and I love travel too. That's one of my—

yeah.

I saw that there's an Indiana Jones 5 movie out.

Did you see that? I did see that. I can't believe—

I mean, who's in it? Who could possibly be starring in it with any action roles?

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. We'll probably go see it though. It's been— that's one of those that'll be fun to watch.

Well, it's July 4th weekend, right? So they always like to come out with this kind of movies, I think, in July 4th weekend because people like to try to go to the movies, you know, family kind of movies.

So yeah, your trip sounds fantastic on the boat. Is it like a big cruise ship or is it—

it is, it's a, it's a, I guess it's, I think it holds like 2,500 people. I'm not a big cruise person, so being 11 days on a cruise, I'm like, but it's because it's like my, my whole family, my parents, sisters, You know, like, it's— I think it makes sense for those type of trips. So yeah, I'll have to— I'll let you know if I survive on the other end.

Yeah, it sounds amazing. We're doing some kind of a— not all EO group, but at least 60% EO couples are going to do a boat trip. It's— I think it fits 30 3 people, so 15 couples, and it's in Croatia. Oh yeah, we go up and down the Croatia.

I know plenty of people have done that, that like recently went— yeah, that's that. I hear it's amazing. That's going to be fantastic.

Yeah, it's next summer, so we're really looking forward to that one. That should be—

oh yeah, that will be incredible. Yeah, no, I think they started that maybe last summer, and they— but yeah, I, I know quite a few people who've done that. Um, I— it was definitely on my list. I just couldn't fit it all in. But yeah, that's going to be fantastic.

Yeah, there's so many, so many things to do. My wife's a schoolteacher, and so summers are the times we get to travel together. The rest of the time I'm usually traveling and she's teaching class, but we're going to try to see if we can go a little early and do something and stay a little late and maybe bring our rest of our family over to do stuff with us and make a long extended trip next summer.

Nice.

Well, I want to say thank you so much for hopping on the show and talking. And I've learned so much about your business and you, and it's so exciting to hear what you're doing. And thank you for your time. I very much appreciate it.

Oh, no, thank you. It's a pleasure.

If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to capture or to get in front of your—

Yeah, so wendy@contentbacon is my email, or just do a search for me. I'm on all social media, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Insta.

There can't be too many competitors. There's probably not a content sausage out there, but maybe there is.

I don't know.

You probably looked, but, um, well, good. And thank you for our listeners. Uh, appreciate you tuning in. And, and my, my producer always reminds me to ask you to, to subscribe to the podcast. Uh, appreciate you listening and look forward to talking to you again in the future. And that's a wrap.

There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by YorCmo, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at YorCmo.com. YorCmo.com, spelled wrong on purpose.