Focusing on Retention - Nanda Grandison - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode # 053

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be. Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy. Welcome. I'm I'm excited for today's guest. She is an accomplished and disciplined B2B marketing executive. She has a solid track record of developing and executing growth marketing strategies and has an extensive expertise and experience in managing multinational teams. Welcome to the show. She's one of our own CMOs at Your CMO, Nanda Grandison. Nanda, how are you?

I am well, Joe, and thank you, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat.

Yeah, it's great. And, uh, we were just, uh, chatting right before the show about one of your, uh, newest clients, which we might get into talking about some of their, um, uniquenesses on the show. But, uh, let's start by answering the question I like to ask every guest, and gives an opportunity for you to share something that's top of mind for you, but what is one thing that, that you're keen on right now or very interested in that you think other C-suite professionals need to know about or be thinking about?

Absolutely, I think that's a great question. So what I am keen on now, and especially in the current climate, is ensuring that there is a renewed focus on driving growth through retention. You know, and, and having said that, it's not an or, or retention versus acquisition, it's an and. But however, I think that as we think about, as marketers, our spend and our LTV, especially now, you know, it's, it's important to have a focus on the clients that we have inside of our organization, right, and ensuring that we are doing what we can to understand what makes them stay, the value that they're getting, and how to course correct as appropriate.

Yeah. And how much time do you think traditionally marketers spend on retention?

None. I think, I think in, you know, from my experience, it's become— it becomes an issue when we have a high churn and then it's okay, what's going on? Why aren't our clients staying? Let's focus on that. Because what we typically focus on is marketing and advertising, right? There's this sense of how can we make sure that we're bringing more into the top of the funnel? And when you think about marketing and advertising, um, paid ads, you know, paid social, um, you know, working with a vendor, um, to do LinkedIn advertising, and over time that can add up. You know, we're also spending money on, you know, when you think about bringing that person in, we have to have a salesperson to vet that lead. We then have to do research to, to get more information so we can follow up with that lead. And even when we're following up with the lead, they may not respond. And then once we bring that client in-house, you know, for some companies, it can take up to 5 years for us to make back that profit on that client. And so And I think that if we, you know, shift that focus, we can still focus on acquisition, but let's look at who do we have in-house, how long have they been staying with us, you know, what is their, uh, NPS score. And then it gives us the opportunity to upsell or cross-sell, uh, to that existing client. Um, and then if we're dealing with clients who are having issues, right, they've told us that they're not happy with this person or this service, then it's an opportunity to think about how can we then reinvest in that client. And the piece that I love the most is referrals. You know, most companies that I've worked with have grown through referrals, and that referrals is typically organic. So think about if we took a step back and be really thoughtful about how we educate our clients on why referrals are important, how we then create a system and a process in place so there's transparency with clients in making referrals, and then how we appreciate or thank— and I'm using quote— our clients for those referrals. I think that can change the game in not only getting organic referrals but making sure that we have a systematic process around how clients refer, and that can increase, and that will increase as well.

Yeah, I think it's so important to think about it. But it's, it's retention, but it's oftentimes not a marketer's responsibility initially, or is it not thought of as a marketing responsibility, it's more of a customer service or operations. But if you put that marketing hat on or that lens on and look at it from, it's not just a service issue, it's a lifetime value of the client issue, it's a loss of potential referral issue. But all all of the marketing-related aspects can be easily integrated into the retention conversation. It's almost more productive, I think, and positive if you look at it from a marketing lens instead of just operations or customer service lens.

Of course. So I will share that I worked for a company and they're in the subscription space. And for the executive team, we had an assignment to read a book. And that book is called Retention Point. And what that really means is that retention point is the point where a client becomes emotionally invested in the service that we provide and they become lifers. And lifers can mean anything for any company. It could mean 5 years, 10 years, 15, 20. But the point is they stay for as long as we want them to stay. And what, what stood out for me in that book is that if we then learn what that retention point is, if we become aware of the retention point, so what makes them become emotionally invested in the company, our LTV can increase 3 to 10 times. And I actually have the book right now.

I have just— well, I just— who's the author? Because I just made a note, retention point.

The author Robert S. K. R. O.

B. All right. I will put that on my list and check it out.

I have so many notes, so many to-dos. Um, and, and as, and as part of that book, one of the things that I learned, so Netflix, Netflix, Netflix a few years ago published some fascinating data where they showed streaming and the hooked episode. And essentially what they've shared is that after a certain point, 70% of viewers get hooked on that series. And what we learned was that drama, it takes 2 to 3 episodes for them to get hooked. Hooked. And then comedy, double that. But essentially, once Netflix figured out when, at what point, a viewer becomes hooked on that series, they have since for sure worked to increase that. I believe I get hooked after the first episode. I am like, I have to watch it until it's done. But I digress. But if we as B2B companies and B2B marketers think about it from that point. At what point does our clients become hooked? And how do we increase that so that they're hooked sooner rather than later?

Yeah, one of the— I wonder, to digress with you, I wonder if that's why they drop like 3 episodes at once sometimes on those shows, so you can binge the first 3 and now you're hooked and you— then they'll drop one at a time.

Absolutely. So for instance, I don't know if you watch You, Like, that is my guilty pleasure. And I've watched 2 series already, so now we're on the 3rd series and they just dropped 3. So after— I mean, you're hooked. So I couldn't wait for 2 weeks to start watching, you know, the next, um, episode. So I think they've learned that after, you know, after the first, uh, episode or even the 2nd, you're hooked. So now they want to delay the gratification and then stop. They give a 2-week pause and you get to watch the next episode, which is fascinating, right?

Yeah, they're just playing with us.

I know, I know. Um, and so, you know, as I think about this, uh, in terms of, you know, I have a client right now and, um, you know, thinking about when they become hooked, it depends on a few things, right? So when they get onboarded, we need to think about that onboard onboarding experience and making sure that we're being super thoughtful, we're documenting that process, we know who is doing what at each point. And then after the onboarding, how do we ensure that when we're now providing service to that client, we are checking in on a regular basis? I think that checking is important because it is at that point where we learn what that client— the value that client is getting at each point.

Yeah, yeah, onboarding is such a crucial point. The other thing I had heard about retention in professional services, and it's not easy to do, maybe depending on the service you offer. But if you can get 3 touchpoints or 3 service points into a client, that's kind of the magic. Because if you just provide one service, it's really easy for them to, you know, replace you. If you have two, it's harder, but when you get three services that they're relying on you for, that's when it's really hard for them to—

that's right—

go away. And ideally, you want all those three to be earned individually, you know, for all the right merits. Not, not, not that you've got them tied into a knot and they can't escape from you, but, um, it's that magic of three service offerings. Have you run across that in any of your experiences or readings?

Absolutely. I think about, um, um, the, um, coaching organization that I worked for, and we had multiple services. It starts with the CEO, and then we had a key executive service, we had an emerging leader service, and it runs off the key— the, the CEO, because the CEO then puts their key executive in a group, and then they put their emerging leader or rising star in a group. So think about that one company, we now are providing services to the CEO, their number two, and then their number three or four. So in that case, they are so deep in the organization and they have multiple people getting value, it's harder for them to leave because they're seeing the value and that's why they're investing. They're having more people invested in the organization.

Yeah, that latter point you made where they're seeing the values is also, I think, an area that's easy to overlook in the professional services area. Because sometimes it's really hard to show value all the time. It's like, in our business, marketing, it's really hard often to show the value of marketing, unless you have some direct response of some sort. A lot of times, it's It's subjectively valued, especially as a fractional service provider. You're going in there and you're providing a service, but how do you institutionalize methods for constantly communicating value to not only your major point of contact, but the whole organization so that you can show your worth on a regular basis? Because that's going to lead to retention. As soon as somebody doesn't see that value or can't see it because it's not being communicated, it's very easy for them to discount the service.

Absolutely. And that's a great question. And I think that our model at Your CMO allows me as a fractional CMO to provide value at— in every department across the organization, uh, because we're not only working with the the C-suite and helping them solve some of the roadblocks on the challenges they're facing, even if it's outside of marketing, right? We then work with— within marketing and the marketing expertise to provide them with a roadmap to make sure that they know what they're doing, that we can share the results of what we're doing. And then as we think about within the product space and whether it is with, you know, in a, in a, in a specific vertical, we are working to help them navigate, um, the services that they provide and making sure that they're also providing value to their clients in a meaningful way. So I think that as I think about my role as a fractional, it's not putting blinders on and just focused in marketing, is making sure that we're touching all aspects of the organization and providing value to multiple departments, if that makes sense.

Absolutely. The last thing I'll say about retention is that we do an exercise in our foundation sessions around client lifetime value with our, with our clients. And when we start to do the math around retention, specifically with an increase in percentage of retention rate and how that impacts lifetime value. It's something like, I want to say, 5 to 7% increase in retention doubles the lifetime value of the client. So it doesn't take much when you just— if you can move that needle 5 to 10%, you can literally double the lifetime value of the client.

Absolutely. And I think— go ahead.

I'm sorry. I was just saying, it's just that from a pure ROI, to focus a little bit of marketing time to solve that puzzle is gonna be worth a lot more than getting 5 to 10% more at the top of the funnel, because you've got all of the fall-through through the funnel to deal with as well.

Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things I think too, I think that that lifetime value starts as soon as that prospect comes into our funnel. You know, it's, it's, it's how we communicate to them, uh, before that initial sales call. Um, it's then how we help them understand what the next step in the process are. It's then once they decide to sign that contract, you know, how do we map out or provide them with a roadmap for what's next and, and what's coming. Um, so I recently, uh, with this client, we did some buyer interviews, and, um, you know, one of the things that we consistently heard is that these clients want to know, yes, I'm getting value right now, and I love working with this particular client, but how can you help me see what's coming down the pike? How do you help me provide visibility in Am I truly taking advantage of all the services that you offer as part of what I'm paying for? So I think this idea of helping clients see what's coming and, and what else we can do for them is important in providing value.

Yeah, it's something that you start crossing over that into the service side with marketing. Okay, now that we have the services being had, marketing can still play a part in helping to bring in new or upsells or referrals from, from that, from that lens that maybe the traditional servicer isn't thinking about that. Absolutely. So you've been in marketing for a while, and you've worked for multiple organizations. And I'm curious, because you've worked remotely and full-time for an organization or more, and now you're working remotely and fractional. What do you see as the main difference between a fractional engagement with a client versus a full-time, even though they're both remote?

That's a great question, and I've been, I've been thinking about that. I think That's a, that's a really good question. And you know what, I'm gonna answer it differently. I, I actually, I actually don't see a lot of difference. Um, I think that the client gets the same value. Um, we are invested as organization. We are connected across departments, um, with the employees. We want to understand the issues, um, departmentally and help them solve it. So at this point, I don't see a lot of difference as being a fractional versus a full-time employee because we're bringing the same value as we would as a full-time CMO versus fractional.

Yeah, that's kind of a cop-out answer, but I'll give it to you.

Give me a bit more time and maybe I'll see a difference. But right now, I really don't.

I really don't. No, I think it's— I know I was joking. I think that is a fair answer. A lot of times when I ask that question for somebody who's kind of newer into the fractional space, they're coming from an in-person kind of full-time engagement. And there is a huge difference, but I, but why I wanted to ask you is because I don't think there's as big of a difference between remote full-time and remote fractional as there is between full-time in-person and remote anything. And I think remote is the, is the real interesting way that people are having to figure out methods to deliver value remotely, whether it's full-time or fractional. That's the main difference that I think most of us that are new to the fractional space have to overcome. And certainly I think executives that are working remotely now full-time have, have same similar challenges, like how do you communicate remotely when you're not all in the same room outside of the meetings? Like inside of Zoom, it's pretty, it's pretty similar to being in a conference room, but it's the hallway conversation, the water-cool conversations, and the just hopping into your office after work or in between meetings. You don't get that as a, as a remote employee or fractional. How have you developed methods to kind of counteract that?

Remoteness? Yep, and that's, and that's a good question. So in my previous full-time role, I worked remotely, and to develop the relationship, you know, that you would in person over the water cooler, in the kitchen while you're getting snacks, or even going to the restroom, I think it requires, you know, being intentional about communicating and not via email, but calling someone. I love to talk over the phone. I like to, I like to do this. I want to see you, and I will just, you know, if I have a question, I am reaching out to someone via Zoom video or Teams video just to have that conversation, and I think what I like to do is make sure that we get the in-person time, so whether it's a quarterly meeting or an event, or if, you know, that person lives in close proximity, I want to make sure that we're spending time in person. And when I was in a full-time role, I made sure that that happened. And that's what I'm doing now in fractional role, because that's how you stay top of mind. That's how those casual conversations come up. And you get to understand really what's, what's going on within the organization where there's discontent, or even, you know, folks are content and are happy within their role. So I think as marketers and as leaders in the marketing space, we have to facilitate those just-in-time connections.

Yeah, I, I like to say time plus touch equals trust. And when I say touch, it's in-person communication, or in some cases a hug if you're a hugger. And I find that in the remote world and the hybrid world is without that human touch, like in-person connection, that trust is lowered. You can have— I've known people for over a year and I've never met them in person, but as soon as I meet them in person, exponentially I have this trust factor go up.

Absolutely.

In the fractional space, one of the reasons that at URCMO we decided that we want to do all first meeting kickoffs with clients in person was for that reason. We knew that if we're invested in this relationship together, we need to spend a little bit of time in person, at least at the beginning. And if not, it's, you know, quarterly is what our preference is. But sometimes budgets and logistics don't allow for it. But at least the first kickoff in person is, is one of the things that we always do.

Yeah. And I think that's brilliant because for me and going through that experience, it allowed me to connect with the clients in person. We went out to dinner, um, you know, we shared personal information, and now I can say they know me a bit more and I do the same. So then that sets the pace for our working relationship going forward.

Yeah. So then how do you extend that to members of the team that you're starting to work with as a fractional not just the executives who are in that kickoff meeting, but the, the rest of the team that you're having to operate on a routine basis with? Is it as important to see them in person, or some various levels of importance there?

You know, um, I think it's, it's, it's more important to see them in person because, you know, we're coming in as fractional leaders where we're gradually changing the way that they have operated to drive growth for the business. And working remote and not being behind the scenes to hear what— whatever the issues are, it's important to build that connection in person. So I met my team in person as part of the foundation session, and, you know, I want to make sure that going forward we have regular cadence obviously budget permitting, where we're getting that in-person connection and I can build that relationship with them to understand what's going on and, and to make sure that I'm building that trust so that we can have crucial conversations.

Yeah. Now let's get creative for a minute, if you don't mind. What are— I like to do this from time to time, so this is one of those times, and I can tell already that you love being put on the spot, so I don't mind it. Let's build a top 10 list for creative ways to get your team together that would be budget conducive. Okay, so you go, we'll go back and forth, one, one each until we get to 10. So you can be first.

Um, um, events. So, uh, tack on a meeting to an event, to a company event or a client event or a conference.

Yeah, that was a good one. That's almost 3.

So is that for me?

Yeah, a company event, a client event, or a conference. That— we will count that as 3.

Okay.

All right.

So no for Joe. None for Joe.

Yes. Yes. All right. I'll go for 3. Budget ways to get together. Okay. Training. So a mutually beneficial training for people in cross-functional teams would be an interesting way to get remote people that weren't in the same kind of division or area together. So it could be leadership development versus sales training. Sales training would bring just the sales team. Leadership development might bring everyone. So that would be— there's 2: divisional training and cross-functional training. Okay. All right, all right, that gets us to 5. We'll go back to you. I got 2, you have 3, you can do 1 now.

All right, so I think that another budget-friendly way is, um, I'll use your example. So let's say you're traveling, you were traveling, you traveled to my, my city, and it it just made sense to connect over. We didn't get to connect. So I would say if I am traveling to a city that is in close proximity to a team member, trying to schedule time to meet them there.

Yeah, that's, that is a good one. That's definitely a good one. Um, well, let's come up with a, uh, A, well, so a company event, but taking it a little bit more specifically to an annual holiday party or summer family party is a great way to spend some money that's for team building that can grab a large amount of people. So it could be incrementally less expensive and picking a central destination where multiple people come to. That, that would be a good one.

Okay, so now we are at 7. We need 3 more.

Yes. Ah, okay.

Okay, I'm gonna get a little crazy now. So let's say I'm traveling and I have a connection in a city for several hours. I think that would be a good time to maybe connect with someone over coffee. Is that a stretch?

That's a stretch, but we'll give it to you. I owe one more. A healthy event like a marathon, half marathon, triathlon, some sort of adventure outdoor event where It would appeal to people that were personally interested in doing some sort of healthy, motivated activity that would get them to a destination that would bring multiple people that might also be involved in that to the same place.

Okay, all right, that's a little bit of a stretch, Joe. It doesn't happen often, but I'll give it to you.

I'm doing a half marathon right now in Lincoln, Nebraska, and I have one person from the Netherlands that's flying in because he wants to participate.

Also.

All right, it does happen.

Great example. Okay, all right, so one more. We have one more, one more. Um, I don't know, it's a tough one. Joe, help me out.

Um, lean on your vendors or strategic partners to host event. For your team that would benefit them from getting people to show up and learn more about their service or offering to share the costs?

That is a good one. Okay, all right, so we're at 10. Who's the winner here?

We got 10. There's no winner. We just— the winner is the listener.

Our listener is the winner. I'm competitive, so I'm always—

okay, then you can do the bonus one. You can do the bonus winner.

One? I don't know. I, I, I think we came up with 10 great ways to connect. So this is gonna be a little different. I think this is a virtual connection, but it works. So in my prior role, we celebrated birthdays and we would order food for everyone and meet on Zoom for an hour. And just kick back, talk it up, laugh. And I think that is also an inexpensive way to connect, not in person, but virtually, and, and, and build some connections. So I'll use that one.

Yeah, I like that. I heard somebody the other day said they have monthly, um, all-team dinners remotely, so they send a virtual— or not virtual, but some sort of Uber dining certificate to everybody. Buy something, show up at 6, eat your food online virtually. We're just gonna have dinner together. And they do that once a month as an organization. I thought that was pretty interesting too.

Okay, there you go. Yeah, that wasn't bad.

No, that wasn't bad at all. So, uh, what do you like to do for fun, Nanda?

Okay, outside of work.

Sure.

So, um, 8 years ago I moved from the East Coast to the West Coast, and, um, I wasn't very athletic, but when I got here and I saw, you know, everyone was outside running half naked too, but I saw that and I was like, wait a minute, I gotta do something. So I started working out and I I fell in love with hiking, Joe. Who would have thought? A city girl. I know, love to go out. I find new trails all across Southern California, um, and I hike with my girlfriends, and it's one of the best feelings ever to be out in nature, to breathe in that air, to connect with nature. It just feels absolutely amazing. So I love love, love hiking. The weather hasn't been good recently because it's been raining, but I'm looking forward to the sun coming out and staying out so I can get out again.

I love that. Yeah. Have you gone to some interesting hikes outside of California?

No, I haven't done that yet. So that would be my next step, is to start venturing out. Maybe not even outside of California. I haven't been to Northern California. Um, I haven't been to some other places that is on my bucket list, but right and still focused in Southern California.

Yeah, I mean, that's a beautiful place to be and hike for sure. Maybe we could reach out to Stacy in Colorado and have her host your CMO hiking event to get some of us CMOs together that are all in disparate locations.

That would be awesome. I would be there for sure. I would be there.

I think that would be really nice. There's a thing in Colorado where you hike a 14er.

You know what that is?

No. So 14er is a 14,000-foot peak, and that is, uh, there's— I don't remember the number. I want to say there's like 30 or 40 in Colorado mountains that you can hike that are 14ers, and some are easier than others, and some you can almost get dropped off at. So only a couple, but, um, to do that, if you have a bucket list, if you're a hiker putting a 14K on your bucket list is a, is a certain must-do. And we could, we could make that quite an event. We could have a lot of fun getting some people together to do that over a weekend. I'm sure we'd get some takers.

Yeah, I'm, I'm in. I've never done that before, but hey, I am in. And if we can take it slow and socialize as we do it, I think that would be awesome.

Yeah, I think that'd be great. We could even invite some clients, like big shit out of it. There you go, I like that. Yeah, um, I had a great hiking experience in Switzerland. We went 2 years ago, there were 9 of us, and we— one guy had put the whole trip together. He found this mountain range and this particular trail called the Hardergrat. And the Hardergrat is a 14-mile route with about a 6,000-foot climb. And the first 4,000 feet of that climb is in the, in the first 4 miles. So it's a really steep initial climb and then it's like 9 miles of just kind of up and down ridge climbing and hiking. It doesn't get extremely technical, like you're not roping up and, you know, you putting on your climbing boots or anything, but there's some very dangerous narrow stretches where it's big drops on both sides of the ridgeline. And when I heard about it, the invite I got was, hey, how would you like to go hiking in Switzerland with some friends? We're going to go from town to town to town, be a lot of fun. I'm like, oh, that sounds great. And then it's 3 months into it. It's this Hardergrat. I Googled it. And if you Google it, it says like one of the hardest climbs in the world or most dangerous, not hardest.

Did you complete it, Joe?

Well, kind of. So when we started training for it, we realized that, um, it's, it's a pretty exhausting climb to go all 14 miles. You have to do it in one day and you have to be done by 5:00 PM because that's the last train down. So when we backtracked, you had to leave at like 3:00 AM and it's about a 15, 16-hour hike to get there. So what ended up happening is about 2 weeks before the hike and the trip, a few of us realized that we weren't up for that. Um, we hadn't trained hard enough. We just weren't ready. So we came up with an alternate route, and we call it the softer grot. And so the softer grot, we realized you can take the train up and start at the end, and then we could walk across and meet the other team in the middle and then turn around and walk back. Okay. So that's what we set out to do. So 5 of us were going the softer grot way, and 4 end up going the harder grot The Softa Grot team started with breakfast and coffee and eggs and, you know, had a nice leisurely stroll to the center, grabbed the cab, got on the train, went up the mountain. It was beautiful, it was spectacular, stunning. Um, and that was like 6 hours after the other group had woken up and started with headlamps and, uh, you know, bundled up with you know, all the water they could carry for the next 16 hours. So about the time we ended up at the end to start, they were already up the major part of the climb. So we started walking to meet each other, and it was scary. There were literally crosses along the route where people had fallen off and died. It was not an easy hike that we thought it would be. Um, it was comfortable most of the way, but there were just small stretches where you were on your hands and knees just hoping you could, you know, get by without, you know, getting too—

I don't know what I would do in that case, if I would want to turn back or—

Yeah, we had one guy with our group and he's like, guys, I just don't want to keep going, uh, I'm gonna go down. And you could kind of— you could see how you could go down and switchbacky way across the one side. So we all end up going down with him. And as we go down, we're going down this beautiful countryside in Switzerland that you've seen like all the sprawling landscape pictures and videos and films and movies. And then they had all these cows that had these cowbells that were just ding, ding, ding, ding the whole time. It felt like you were in The Sound of Music. It was so, so much fun. What a great experience. So we got down and then we started getting updates from the rest of the team. Only 2 of the original team members made it all the way and down the mountain that day. The other 2 of the 5 ended up not getting all the way, but they didn't get there in time, so they had to spend the night at the top of the mountain. And then one of the guys had to come down early with another group of hikers because he just couldn't make it across. And we found him back at the hotel when we got there. So it was quite the experience.

But that was— again, and it sounds like you'd have to train for months, if not years, to, to complete it.

I would do it again, and I would do it again and train for it. And I would, I would, I would do the Hardergrat because it's doable. You just have to train for it like, like you would for a marathon, kind of that level of training. You think about it, you get out there, you got to put a pack on, you got to just go, go, go.

Otherwise it's just not doable. Yeah. And do you hike now at home or in your area? I know it's too cold.

Yeah, not much. That was That was kind of a unique opportunity. And so we don't have— and we have roads in Omaha, but we don't have trails around here like you do. It's not as exciting to hike around here.

Well, whenever you come to Southern California, let me know. We can go on a small trail, right?

Yeah, we'll definitely have to get that in the works soon. I always enjoy going to San Diego, but last time I was there, as you mentioned, the weather hasn't been great. It hailed on me. I didn't think it was possible to hail in San Diego.

Yeah, it's, it's been quite crazy here. I hope we have passed the worst and it's now sunny days.

We'll see. Yeah. Well, it's been fun to chat with you, Nanda. If anybody wants to reach out to you and talk about top 10 lists and competition, or marketing, what's the best reason or best way for them to connect with you?

Absolutely. So the best way to connect with me would be on LinkedIn, um, at Nanda Grandison. Um, alternatively, you can email me at nanda@yourcmo.com. And Joe, thank you so much for having me. I have enjoyed our conversation, um, and I'm just looking forward to connecting more.

Yeah, and thank you, and I'm super excited for our hiking trip to Colorado and in San Diego. Yes. And if we have plans, we can try to share it in the show notes. Maybe some of our listeners could come visit us as long as they're not stalkers. To all of our listeners out there, I'm assuming that you're not stalkers. Thanks for being here. My producers say make sure to like the podcast and subscribe and whatever you're supposed to do to make the numbers look better. But we appreciate you listening., and feel free to reach out to Nanda or me if you've got any questions or anything we said prompted you. But thanks for being here, and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you. Bye-bye. And that's a wrap. There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at at yourcmo.com, yourcmo.com, spelled wrong on purpose.