Branding From Within - Charles Internicola - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode # 039

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be.

Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy.

Welcome. Today's guest is someone who provides emerging and growing brands with the legal support they need, resources to grow, and strategies to win at franchising. He has over 25 years of experience working with over 200 franchising brands, is a frequent lecturer, and he is publisher of numerous franchise compliance and registration guides. He is founder of the InterNikola Law Firm, and he's our attorney, full disclosure. Welcome, Charles, and to Nicola. Glad to have you.

Yeah. So I, I appreciate, I'm looking forward to this conversation. Thank you.

Yeah. Well, let's just open it right up. The question I like to lead with is, is something kinda simple, something that might be on your mind. Is there anything that you think is an opportunity out there in the C-suite or in leadership space that you would like other business owners, C-suite leaders, or leaders in general to know about?

Well, this is a, it's a good question, right? And so I, to answer that, I just reflect internally on those internal conversations that go on for me about, you know, how do we take our organization? We're a franchise law firm, right? All we do is franchising. And then there's sort of law plus consulting, but how do you take a business and really create a thriving organization and you grow? And, and what I come back to so often, I guess what I would share in response to that question is really integrating the brand positioning and the brand of your business and how a well-defined brand, whether include issue items like value proposition, mission, how it really influences your culture, which then influences your team and really gets organizations to the next level.

Wow. Interesting answer from an attorney. Straight to branding. I love it. From a marketer's mindset. That's terrific. But maybe let's unpack that a little bit. So, sure. You know, when you think of branding, what do you, what do you think about?

Well, and so that, that's the part where I, I guess my communication falls off a little in terms of what I'm thinking about, which is to me, branding's more than marketing, right? Branding is, you know, at, at, at sort of at, at a very thin level, branding is what the public sees and understands about your business. Right? And that just may be a little element of it. What, what I'm fascinated about branding is that there's so many components that have nothing to do with marketing, although they attract consumers. For me, where I'm seeing, I, I think the biggest opportunities, especially for smaller organizations, is to really understand the importance of that brand. Right? Everyone goes through workshops and moments where they list their core values and they do, you know, maybe they'll identify the 3 uniques of their business, but they're sort of just checking the box. They're not living that. So, so for me, brand is not just the marketing or the outward perception, but it's also all those internal communications with your team, whether you're having your traction meetings and, and how you internally understand and see your business, your mission, how you deliver it. And really, for me, I like how it all packages together into the brand itself.

Yeah. The brand's much more than just a logo and a tagline. It's the experience that I believe your customer has and your team has as they're kind of living within and around you as a company and organization. There's so many facets to it. And there's some things that you point out there that I believe can impact it greatly— culture, core values, mission, vision. What are a few of the things that you've done that you really think has established your brand?

So, so again, this— it's fascinating to me that you just don't adopt or say this is our brand. It's sort of a journey, right? And so for me, the greatest vehicle to, to really getting to the point and understanding our brand is, is really working through traction-type planning, team conversations, and really focusing on everything from 5-year vision planning, unique value. So it's really the culmination of everything. So for me, the most interesting element about what a brand is, and I love your definition when— because you said, um, it's the experience that your customers and team have. And I think so many people overlook the team experience, right? Right. And so, so it becomes a slogan, but it doesn't gain traction because it's not real. If, if your brand— if you're, you know, your brand takes shape from your team's actions, your team's core values, what you place priority on and how you deliver product. So everything forms that brand and it has to start internally with the team. And I think you can't take a shortcut, right? You got to go through the pain of making mistakes, of getting frustrated, of trying to really define your brand, your target markets, how you deliver value, why you're probably the best solution, right? And you have to fail at that. For years, unfortunately. And you have to be intense with it. But out of that process, I think comes about, you know, powerful brand team alignment and something special. Now, does every, every business get there? No. Is our firm there? I feel like we're on the way. We understand it. But I just think too many businesses overlook this.

You're in a unique position as a franchise attorney to see hundreds and thousands of brands over the years. And I imagine that somewhat influences this conversation, but you're, you've taken it to a different level when people, when a lot, I, lots of times when you think of brand, you think of those big logos, those big brands as names, but I love how you're real, you're, you're reinforcing how important it is that it's much more of an internal brand than it is an external brand. And when you do the internal piece right, the external piece is also right. And it's— and I've seen it both ways. You can't, can't do one without the other well and be sustainable. Do you think that it— you mentioned EOS and planning, and I know we use EOS or version of it, and others have. How important do you think a framework like that is for small and midsize and large companies to establish their brands, their, their putting some framework around branding.

Yeah, I think that type of planning, EOS-type planning, is— I would equate it to magic, right? And it's that process. It's those weekly core team meetings. It's following just the basics, right? Tracking those rocks and tracking those issues. And it's— I think that process is is so critical. I— you— whatever formula or whatever methodology someone follows, but without that, I think it's like flying a plane with all clouds around you, right? And you don't— you don't have markers to navigate from.

Yeah, I think the emphasis on scorecards and weekly meetings were the biggest takeaways that I had from EOS versus other planning operating systems that I've been around from and seen and heard. There's lots of them. They're all really good. But when we started implementing weekly team meetings and clear scorecards to measure objectively what was going on in the business, that was the biggest aha that came out of EOS for us. Where I have been spending more of my time internally is around the concept of kind of decentralized leadership and trying to go from this kind of top-down hierarchical goal setting, vision building, rock and to-dos to more of a team-based approach. And it's an interesting deviation from EOS. We're kind of plodding through it a bit. The outcome's the same. You still fill out the same paperwork at the end of the day, but how we're getting there is, is, is interesting. So we've started asking people to come up to our meetings weekly with their own personal core values and sharing a personal core value story and integrate it with our company core values because we want to make sure that we're not only building this brand around the company, but we're also trying to build around our team members. And as we've been doing that, Charles, it's been amazing how much we're learning about each other inside of these weekly meetings and reinforcing each other's strengths and positioning and values within the team. I can't tell you how, how deeper that has gone with us just in a very short period of time by incorporating that that little spin on core value conversations.

Yeah. Well, it's a great exercise, right? Because it helps realign why we're here. And at the organizational level, understanding that as stakeholders, part of the value the organization needs to deliver is help those core team members achieve their personal goals. So There's power in that. You know, years ago I would sit at conferences and I'd be like, let me just get the business first. I'll worry about all these, like, you know, but can really culture and all these things transform a business? And you're like, when I get there, I'll focus on it, right? Because it sounds so esoteric, but yet it's so powerful. And so your example, there's so much— the power of that communication, focus on those personal goals really magnetizes what you're doing as an organization. So I love that.

Yeah. It's something that's been working for us, and I've been sharing with other organizations and teams that I work with to try with their own teams. And the response has been great. So I'm curious what your take is on leadership. How would you define leadership?

That's a— I mean, that's a really good question. I wish I had like this canned answer too. I have no clue.

I didn't give you any prep for that one, did I?

No, and it's okay. It's good, right? Um, for me, leadership is looking out for your team and, and letting them know and taking the action so they see that you're willing to do everything that needs to be done to help the organization grow. And to look out for them. I mean, it's, you know, it's so cliché, but leadership's all about supporting your team and empowering them. It's all about empowering, um, and then everything else takes shape. And it's also understanding that growth and a thriving organization doesn't just come from you as the leader, it's the value of everyone together. So to me, it's, it's really about unifying the team aligning the goals and the trajectory and then supporting everyone. It's really a support role.

Yeah, I love that. I tend to come from that position of thought when it comes to leadership as well. So what does successful leadership— sorry, what does successful leadership feel like inside of an organization?

Yeah, you know what's so great about this conversation? Just, I feel like it's a therapy session. It's like, it's like getting me to focus on things I should focus on. They all spin around in your head. What does it feel like? It feels proud. Like, you know, in a different way, the same way you're— you have moments where you're proud of your children, you're proud of your team, and you're proud of the organization, and you're proud of your clients. I mean, there's a sense of pride and there's a sense of, you know, there's a sense of gratitude in being a part of it and seeing something take shape. I mean, I love seeing our team members grow professionally and personally. I love and want them to be so valued that other people want to hire them. Right? And proud of what they do. And every day, just knowing that no matter how difficult the day is or how hard they're working, they're proud of what we do. No one hides from anything. It's just really proud to know whatever small thing we do, we're doing the best at it.

Yeah, that's awesome. What are a few components of a successful leader?

Oh, you know, I don't know. All I know is I think it's— I go more— I think I'm probably a more emotional person than, you know, fact-based, or— right? So I think it— for me, the only thing that comes to mind is, is for your team to know you got their back, right? And that's, you know, I may be one-dimensional, right? I'm not running a Fortune 500 company, but That's where I focus on is, you know, and that may be a bunch of things, right? It has to do with workflow. It has to do with taking responsibility for team members if they haven't had the right support. And even if they've had the right support, maybe to shield them. And also, um, on their compensation. And, you know, it's interesting because people just say this, but it's true. If, if I'm concerned about business declining or not declining, You know, just as much as if I— not really, but I mean, at the state, but as worried as I would be for my family, that's how I'm worried about our team. I don't want to disappoint them. Right. So, I mean, it's really just having their back and then it works both ways. Right.

Right. If you think about other leaders in your organization, what are some of the characteristics that come across?

In mine, we're small. So, I, you know, the thing I'm proud about the most, I think everyone's accountable for their actions, right? They're willing to say what needs to be said, and they're accountable. No one hides from things. I would say, and they're consistent, and they're steady-handed, and they're just, you know, our team's small, and it's, I think everyone's just willing to do what needs to be done. And no one's gonna get caught up in the, I can't, or how do I do it? It's like, let's just do it. Or what I like to, and this may be a bad leadership quality, I like acting without having a full plan. Not that we're not gonna land the right way. I like chaos. I think chaos in an organization, not, not in operations. I'm all about systems and processes and procedures and delivering a finely tuned product. But when it comes to expanding the services we give or improving them, rather than sitting and writing a checklist, I like to just say, hey, we're doing this and then we just got to figure it out. Now we got to deliver, right? So I believe in that type of disruption. I'd say chaotic disruption, but I don't know, I think it works. And reflecting on our team and their leadership, I think a great value is they get it done. And they just, you know, roll with— as long as everyone's aligned on why we're doing it, if it's for the benefit of the client, which is our core focus, everyone gets the job done. Yeah.

Sounds like you've got a great organization there. So when did you start?

So, I mean, I'm practicing law for, you know, decades. Our core team's been together over 10 years. And it evolves. I mean, there's so many mistakes we've made along the way. And when I say mistakes, not doing things, but I mean not building an organization, not building a business. And really, you know, I started with brand, right? Everyone thinks they have a brand. Maybe we thought we had a brand, but we didn't. And it, it's not until you really dive into that service delivery, customer experience, client experience, and that continuous improvement process. Again, I, you create great services, you create great client relations, but your team and culture, it sticks together, right? So we have an amazing team. I, you know, even the other day I, I got a text from not a client, but sort of a client supplier that we work with, praising one of our team members and texting me about it and saying he'd like to steal her. I don't hide that text. I texted it to her. Yeah, right. I'm proud of that.

Yeah, that's, uh, it's nice when you get those. Yeah, it's even nicer when you get to share those because that's such a warm feeling for everybody when that comes in and gets shared.

Yeah, no, for sure.

How has, uh, how has your world changed in the last few years, uh, with— not with necessarily the pandemic, but just with the way business has changed and reacted? We're much more global, uh, we're much more, um, virtual, hybrid in some cases. How has that impacted your business?

It's gotten a thousand times better. Right. Really? Yeah. And look, again, for anyone, personal issues aside, and you want, you know, anyone who suffered and whatnot, you know, you take recognition there. On a, you know, I'm fortunate on a personal level, it helped recalibrate, you know, how we view things and quality time. So that's a positive. On a business level, it jeopardized our business, right? It, you know, immediate, you know, we actually suspended client payments and still provided support. We didn't let anyone go on our team. There was uncertainty. But for me, it was a great opportunity to say, hey, how do we recalibrate? And we launched projects we always want to launch in terms of weekly podcasts and live streams and interviewing our client brands and interviewing business leaders and building internal for our clients, great masterclasses and programs. And so I think it made us stronger, right? We could— I could for sure look back on that time and say every bit of it was productive. It also made us more aware of our own strategic planning. You know, we did a livestream with, I think it was Annie Duke, who's a poker champion, World Series, and she wrote a book on thinking in bets, which is really great. You know, her exercise is about backcasting, you know, so if you envision 7, 9, 12 months ahead, what does success look like? What does failure look like? What are the guideposts that you'll have seen along the way to lead to that success? What are the risks, chances? How do you hedge? And, you know, when we— following that exercise, we actually put together a workbook for our clients, but it actually helped our internal team, you know, to get through our planning. I think we came out stronger.

I was just watching today a Tim Ferriss TED Talk about fear setting. I don't know if you'd seen it or heard about it.

No, no.

He shared how he uses this tool. He came across it through studying some stoicism papers or articles or letters written by Seneca or something. But it's essentially going through and thinking about something you wanna do and then writing down what are all the things that you're afraid of if you do this? So if you want to launch a new product or service or start a new location, what are all the things that are kind of holding you back from it? And then there were 2 or 3 other steps to that, like first page, he called it. And then the second thing was, okay, now what are, what might be the, a modest success that could come from this? Then ultimately, then there was some sort of rating system, like on a, you know, How do you rate the scale versus the upside opportunity? And he does a much better job of describing it than I do on this TED Talk. But same concept of kind of use this fear setting to talk through and to get real clarity on the goal of the opportunity ahead in a way that mitigates some of those challenges that some people seem to get stuck not being able to make a decision at all because of the fear. It's a framework to walk through it, I think. I'm a quick start. If you have— if you do any assessments, I— we have a Kolbe assessment. I'm like a 9 out of 10 quick start, so I have no fear. I'll just go. But my business partner and others are— need to have much, uh, deeper thought or a process to kind of break through some of those perceptions that are real.

You know, it's interesting because those are important exercises. And one of my biggest critiques internally that goes on in my head is I know I think too small in terms of the goals we're achieving. So you really get stuck in your space and what you're doing, and even if it's perfecting what you're doing, but not thinking outside of that perimeter and growing from there. And sometimes it's the fear which that exercise sounds great. My biggest concern is I probably very much like you. I don't have that fear, right? I will just do. My concern is I'm not seeing that opportunity to even be fearful of it. Right. That's what I worry about often, which is what am I not seeing? And yeah, content with the way things are, but there's, you know, what's that other opportunity I'm missing?

Yeah. And what are some of the blind spots? And it's not, let's say negative blind spots, but what are some of the other ways to think about the opportunity that you're not thinking of that could be a better way to do the same thing? I went to a talk once where the lady was sharing a simple top 10 exercise. So take the same idea. We wanna move, relocate, we wanna start a new office.

All right.

What are the top thing, top 10 things that would make this a better start? And everybody individually or on a team, you start thinking, well, we could move it, we could do it, we could rent a space, we could buy a space, or we could, you know, whatever they might be. And, and lo and behold, that best idea or way of going about things is usually in 7, 8, 9, not 1, 2, 3. And when you're quick starts like you and me, it sounds like, you know, hey, we'll just go 1, 2, 3 and just go and figure it out. But if we pause for a moment work through it a little bit, maybe 7, 8, 9 pops in and it's a better route, a better way to go. Well, I thought that was a simple, simple exercise too.

I think that's a great exercise. And then, you know, I could see being in that 1, 2, 3 category. I could also see being in 1, 2, 3 being the most expensive way of doing it.

Yeah. Right.

So I could see that too. Whereas 7, 8, 9 are like lean startup and like, you know, big impact and right. So yeah, that's definitely, I, that's a weakness I would share for sure. Um, which, which is also interesting because there's so much opportunity out there. I don't have all the, well, I don't have the answers and I struggle with them, but there's so many opportunities for community building and community engagement in an organic way. Some will call it marketing, but it's really not. It's, it's really adding value. And there's just some people and brands and businesses, no matter the industry, that are just great at it. And some that don't see the opportunity. I feel like our organization, we're in the middle. We see the opportunity. We put a lot of good effort into it. Maybe that 1, 2, 3 categories, but, but haven't hit that sweet spot of really uplifting that community and motivating it. Right? So that, that's where I think there's a lot of opportunity for any business right now.

Yeah. So you, you alluded to a personal reset, if you will, during the pandemic. What, what do you like to do for, for fun? What's, what's outside of work for you?

This is bad, right? So I love work, which is crazy and like so horrible because I could sit here and say hiking and all this other up. It's not true. Just spending quality time, you know, you know, with my sons, my wife. Just the basics, which sounds so boring, but it's true.

Yeah. We were very fortunate to be able to bring our kids home from college during the pandemic and have— I've got 4 kids, 2 of them were— 3 of them were at school Well, now 2 are at college, one was a senior, and so, and one's a senior this year. So everybody came back home and under the same roof for, you know, 6, 9 unscheduled months. And, uh, we had such a great time just hanging out because you couldn't go out. I mean, that was the only people you could do stuff with. And we did things, you know, played games, played cards. Laugh, joke, bonded in a way that we probably didn't bond 2 years earlier when they all were still in the house, you know, because they're all going from event to event and activity. We like, we were all forced to be together. And I still cherish that time. It was very, very fortunate.

Yeah, same experience, right? It felt— my memory feels like one giant barbecue, the whole thing. I mean, you know, so it— yeah, I think that was a good reset. And also, I think From a social standpoint, I don't know. I mean, there's going to be implication and impact from this for many years, right? So we'll see how that plays out. But even there, too, recalibrating, you know, you get all that time. So now your children are not at college, right? I had the same experience, and I'm not a big fan of college, just, you know. And so we got to talk about, you know, the things we want to talk about. You know, from a non-college standpoint, boring things like Federal Reserve and monetary policies and stuff like that. But all things I wish I understood at their age.

Right.

You know? Yeah. So it's good stuff.

Were they receptive?

Well, you know, that's a good question. Yet to be seen. We will see. Because my— like, everything's implanting like a seed that has to take root. Been mildly, uh, receptive so far. We'll see how it goes long term. Yeah.

Uh, do you guys travel much?

You know, we do. Not— we travel, but, you know, nothing extra, you know, nothing crazy, just, um, you know, domestic and, you know, in the U.S. But, um, yeah.

So being in New Jersey, where are the hot travel spots So New Jersey's now—

where are you based out of?

I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.

All right. So I don't want to be cliché, but New Jersey is underrated. And if you're— you know, right now we're looking at beach homes. If you're on the Jersey Shore, not the TV Jersey Shore, like it's a— it's an amazing place, you know, to have a home.

My daughter just moved to Philadelphia.

Okay.

When she moved there, everybody was telling her about the Jersey Shore. And from Nebraska, the Jersey Shore is the TV show, right? We couldn't understand, like, what is the appeal of this Jersey Shore? Oh, everybody goes. You got to take a trip out there. You got to get on a house. And it's a thing to do here. And she, I think, finally had a chance to go out there recently and it was just an amazing experience. I don't know which town she went. I guess they're all a little different, a little unique, right?

Yeah.

So I would love to enjoy that sometime. And then she's been going up to it around the Atlantic City area for a couple of, like, camping trips or something. And I'm not sure, is that nearby? Are they near one another or are they kind of opposite ends of the, of the shore there? What's the makeup of Atlantic City from the Jersey Shore? Is that part of the Jersey Shore or is that—

Yeah, it could be. Yeah. So for us, it's It's, it's southern, so you'd want to come up more and stuff. And we're, so we're, we're, we're probably where our office is about 2 hours from there.

Okay.

Yeah. So, and you know, I'd recommend, so in between there, Atlantic City and our office, there's some really beautiful places for sure.

What's the best time of year to be there?

Well, in New Jersey in general, any time from, I would say, April through October. Right. And then summertime. But, you know, for the beach, New Jersey is great. Winter's not so good, but for sure it's definitely underrated.

Yeah. Well, I'll be in— I'll be in New Jersey in a couple of weeks. My client is in— she's just outside of New York. Up northwest of New York City, about an hour. I can't remember the name of the city. And then I'll be taking a train from there to Philadelphia to spend a weekend with my daughter and then train back and fly out of LaGuardia. It's not the best route. I figured I was looking at the math like I am going to be planes, trains, and automobiles all over the area.

But if you need anything, we're probably one of those train stops. So let us know. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll see if it works its way out. Maybe I'll try to make a stop. Well, I really appreciate your time today, Charles. This has been great. I liked our talk and I look forward to continuing to work together. You've been a great resource for us and I thank you for your service. Your team has been terrific and now I know why or more of the why. They're so terrific to work with. So thank you.

Yeah, thank you. And yeah, look, that's the best part about what we do. We get to play a little role in our client journey. So we appreciate everything.

And for our listeners out there, thank you. And if you want to reach out to Charles, his contact information will be in the show notes. And if you need just a place to visit in New Jersey, I'm sure he'll be happy to point you in the right direction. But sure, thank you, and we'll see you next week.

And that's a wrap. There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by YorCmo, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at YorCmo.com. YorCmo.com, spelled wrong on purpose.