Data-Driven Marketing - Stacy Kamigaki - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode #44

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be. Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy. Welcome. Today's guest is a marketing executive. She has 25 years of experience successfully managing go-to-market strategies for startups and high-growth technology companies. She believes strongly in working collaboratively— collaboratively, she likes to use big words— and she is a CMO at our company, your Sumo. So welcome, Stacy Kawagaki. How are you?

I'm well, Joe. Thanks for having me on.

Good to be here. Yeah, it's great. It's always good to have one of our own on the show. And I say that a little bit in jest. You're definitely your own woman, but glad to have you on our team.

Awesome. Thank you. I am too.

So let's get started. I know that the question I like to pose at the beginning of the show is, is simply what, what's an opportunity that you see that you think other C-suite leaders should know about?

Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about that. And one of the biggest opportunities I think for the C-suite today is building more intelligence into their business, right? And leveraging data across all areas, across all departments to basically, one, collectively make decisions, share more information and insights across the teams so that people can bring more buy-in. You get everyone on the same page, and they can even ask more relevant questions, bring their perspectives to the conversation.

How do companies do that?

Ah, great question. You know, I'll draw from a little bit of my experience. In a few of the companies I've recently worked for. And of course, as head of marketing, you know, I'm going to look at the marketing discipline first, right? So for example, you've probably heard the term data-driven marketing, and that's been around for a while. And data-driven marketing really focuses on understanding the buyer, right? What are their preferences? What are the— what's their profiles, their needs, and even the behaviors, right? We start to really track their behavior throughout the buyer journey. And this helps us bringing in that data to guide marketing strategy and the programs that we invest in. It helps us drive bigger ROI because we have that data to say, here's what's working and here's what's not. So that's just on the marketing side, right? So we look at, you know, where they buy as well as, as how they buy. And it's really interesting over the course of, of my career, for example, I know when we started, when social media became a big thing, right? But I sell B2B. And so the main platforms that we used to spend money and market in were LinkedIn and Twitter, right? And so, you know, most recently over the last several years, we've had, you know, people ask us, agencies ask us, well, what about Facebook and Instagram? We're like, that's, you know, great for B2C, but not really for B2B. Well, do we really understand any shifts in the buyer behavior? Because a lot of feedback that came to us from those experts who maybe tried it out with other organizations organizations did find that there was more and more activity success in, in, in those platforms. And so I think it's, you know, understanding your buyer, having that, those data, data-driven insights, but staying on top of that and keeping pulse on maybe shifts in the market and the way that the buyer buys. So that's just a marketing example of how, how I usually bring that in early in to an engagement.

Yeah, well, clearly from a marketing side, there's so many more metrics than there ever have been. And so sifting through the data and understanding what the right insight— not insight, but the right metrics are, and gleaning insights, no easy task. So what do you tell somebody who's just got information overload? Like, how do I make sense of this data? I've got it all in front of me, but How do I make it make any sense?

Absolutely. And I think, you know, that's, that's been, um, something that also has evolved because I don't know, maybe about 10 years ago, big data, big data was big, right? And, um, so we were hearing a lot about that, but, um, and read an article recently about, you know, we need to look at small data, small data groupings, increments, and, and, and to help us make decisions in a very focused way. And so, um, I would say you don't have to look at the vast amount of data and drinking from a fire hose, but really hone in on the things that you think can move the needle. So I talked about, you know, marketing. And the other thing is, you know, very important is really that collaboration across the C-suite. So once I put the marketing metrics in place, you know, just the last few companies that I've worked for, you know, I also collaborated a lot as, as they grow— grew to see the value of data, you know, on the client success side, right? We, we need to look at the customer experience feedback. They're in touch with the customers. Are we solving problems if issues come up? What's the net promoter score? You know, those type of things really help us. And because in a service organization where you add services onto the technology, they are a key touchpoint because they're customer-facing. So a lot of the data they can bring back post-sale is also very valuable to the marketing and sales department, but also to, I think, the business as a whole. And then again on the financial side. So, you know, marketing and CFOs sometimes, you know, because we like to spend and they like to pull back, it's really important to collaborate to really understand. So what is the financial leaders looking at, right? The last one, for example, was in recurring revenue MRR software. And so some of the things that they were looking at were, you know, the customers. Where were they coming from? Were they coming from the channel or, or from the direct? You know, what was the mix of current customers? Were we upselling to them versus net new? And what's the lifetime value? Are we increasing those sales? So again, there's a lot of interconnected data, but that directly impacts sales and marketing and the growth of the company.

It's marketing spans lots of different areas of the business.

Yes.

Operations, sales, you know, we don't really impact the financial side, but they certainly can impact us with budgets and expectations. But it can be like the glue, if you will, or the source of all data truth could could live in the marketing department if, if you wanted it to, because it does incorporate so much of the different areas of the business. Do you see in your experience that marketing is used as that kind of bridge, or is it marketing usually more silent and they just bring them in when they need leads?

Yeah, yeah. I, I think, and again, I think that's why that's one of the biggest opportunities right now, is because it isn't traditionally used that way. I also, I think you're facing some different obstacles, whether it be systems, right? There's different systems that are capturing the data. You need to make sure that they are all talking to each other, right? Whether it be your, you know, support tickets and those type of things and the different reports that client success runs to, you know, QuickBooks or some of the larger ERP systems that's holding the, you know, the revenue information. All of those need to be able to talk to each other. So system level, you know, you need to have that foundation built. When it comes to the different decision makers, I think all of the C-suite needs to have ownership in different parts of that to make collectively and collaboratively to make decisions together. I think marketing can help, and I think if you have a data-driven marketer, they can bring expertise from, you know, past experience.

So It's one of the nuances of being a fractional CMO is you are not in the organization as much, or like sometimes even physically in the organization like other C-suite leaders are. So does that compound the problem with marketing getting its fingers into things and, and getting access to the data and showing Data is a valuable, valuable part of marketing, or is it indifferent in your experience?

I think it's indifferent if you can show the value of data. If marketing can, and again, that's where I start. But if marketing can show some data insights that are impacting the business, right? I look, I think it's really important to look at some of the metrics typical marketing metrics of how many visitors to a site, how many clicks, those type of things. But I, I drill further into where is that leading to, you know, leading us, right? What are the conversion rates from a sales perspective? Sales and marketing have to align and they have to work very closely together. So, you know, what are the conversion rates throughout the buyer's journey? So those are some of the metrics that we have to uncover, and we have to share to the leadership. Um, as, cuz I wear two hats, right? As a CMO, I wear the marketing hat and that's very important to help drive business, um, and, um, increase sales. But I am a chief officer, right? So I also have a business hat and I am part of the executive team that all of us should care about ways in which we can move the needle.. And so I think, you know, marketing, if we have a seat at the table, can demonstrate the value that we're doing with very targeted programs driven by data and what our buyers prefer. Then I think we start to build that credibility and that trust. And then I think there's ways that other executives, because they, you know, again, they care, they want to want the company to succeed, they want to be part of something greater, they too will start to look at, oh, well, maybe I should be, you know, looking at these KPIs, these different metrics to see. And then as we start to share that, we could see how that interaction takes place as well.

Yeah. What are some of the insights that, like, customer experience data can give to the marketing team to help with lead generation?

Yeah, well, one example I gave about social media platforms, right? So, um, is it, it, it's really about where do, where do I invest? Where do I put my money? And so, um, to have those, um, customer experience insights, to really ask the customer, right? Because if, if we don't, then we're making a lot of assumptions, right? Uh, we think they go to, uh, they, we think they open our emails, you know, we think that they, uh, go to these different platforms. Those type of things. We, we guess on what their behavior is. Well, what if we asked those, those different buyers and, and found, you know, patterns, nuances, those type of things, so that we can say, you know, based on collectively this group of buyers, they basically buy through the channel. Okay, well, maybe we need to invest in our channel programs. Maybe we need to bring awareness and save sales enablement because again, I'm, I go B2B tech, right? So it's a big investment, most likely $200,000 and above in an investment. So they often turn to trusted advisors. Well, who are those? Right? Especially for smaller organizations who maybe don't have the brand recognition. You know, the path to the customer may be different. Yeah.

And I, I know we, we, we internally at YourSumo, we spend a lot of time understanding the buyer journey. And in doing so, we'll interview with new customers in the last 6 to 12 months to understand what those newer customers' buyer journeys are. But also, I know a lot of times in marketing, we're doing net promoter scores and trying to understand how a current customer feels about the product or service. And there's, you know, besides NPS, there's other There's other surveys that we do and there's other feedback that we get from an existing customer. And I'm just curious, like, is there valuable insights to be learned from existing customer experiences that can impact lead generation and conversion? Or is an existing customer, you know, once they're a customer, their buyer journey is the only thing that we wanted to learn from them. Everything else that happens afterward doesn't impact bringing a new customer in.

Yeah, absolutely. I, I do think all of the data is, is important and current customers, you know, some could be as, as new as a month ago, right? Really understanding, you know, who all was influenced in the buying decision. And I think it's really important to keep a pulse on that as time passes, right? So not looking, probably not gonna take data at or valid use Consider the data as valid if it was from customers who purchased 10 years ago, right? And they're just using our system, say storage, right? Data storage. All right. Using our system, but those within the past few years, especially because I think it's really important to try and have that recency and that relevancy of the different buying options that are available to buyers in today's world.

Yeah. I know when we talk to prospects about our service and we share with them that we do these customer interviews, the first feedback we get is, oh, we— our customers love us. And it's, it's rare. Then, then we have to explain, well, that's not what we're interviewing for. We're interviewing to find out how they found you and what challenges they were facing when they went to look for you. And 'Cause a business owner, their mindset is customer interviews is all about how well they like my product or service. And a marketer's lens is oftentimes different, which is how did you find us and how do we find more people like you? But is there feedback about how well they like our service that's valuable to marketers?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, that, right? Our service is, it's the product, right? Same with, you know, if, if we really bring in all departments, right? And I haven't mentioned HR yet, but the people, right? And hiring and having the people and, you know, having them all in, right? That they feel part of an organization, they know where it's going, they're 100% behind it. And that comes through in every experience, every touchpoint with the customer. So absolutely is important to understand how their experience went, went. And how satisfied they were. Because one, you know, will they buy again? If they're MRR customers, we have to worry about churn. You know, there's competitors out there and you can, you know, change in a month, less than. And so, so you really need to take into consideration all of those aspects. Marketing's job is not done. And everyone in the organization is a marketer. Marketing to a client And selling to a client is, is never done. Um, in the current client base I'm seeing more and more is actually your bread and butter. And so you really want to protect that.

I think that's, that's the big aha that a lot of, um, people miss about marketing is yes, we can bring in leads and that's our focus. And of course we have to, that's one of marketing's major responsibilities, but also extending client lifetime value by reducing churn, looking for opportunities for upsells or new products or enhancements. Like, marketing can play a big role in that, which may be a more valuable role for some companies, especially B2B tech. You know, retention and churn and, um, client lifetime value goes a long way in ultimately valuing that company in, in the light of an exit or other purposes, but those numbers might be more important than net new customers.

Well, if you think from an entrepreneur perspective, Joe, right, you, you think about— you're always thinking about new things, new ideas, right? And the best marketer I know of is Jeff Bezos, right? I mean, he has— right, everyone's standard is Amazon, right? And so What was he when they first started? It, it isn't what they are today. And it's always that continuous improvement. What new services, you know, what, you know, ways that I can engage my current customers. And the, you know, one of the last companies I worked for, over 80% of our sales for that year were new services, new products to the existing customer base. And I, you know, again, I, I agree.

I think that's untapped sometimes.

Yeah, completely.

You're— yeah, one of your greatest assets is the existing customer base. Um, new customers are much harder to find, much more expensive to find than retaining an existing customer. The, the data's super clear on that. You touched on recruiting, and I, I always— I think recruiting is just a marketing effort, and the product's the company, and the prospects to hire. Recruiting has gotten really difficult lately for a lot of companies. And if you put your marketing hat on, what kind of advice would you give the, the, your, your, your CEO or your CHRO peer from a marketing perspective to enhance or help the recruiting efforts?

I, you know, I honestly think that what employees are looking for today has changed so much. I think they want to be a part of something bigger than themselves. I think they want something that they can bring value to, that they are recognized and rewarded. I think culture is such a big part of recruitment right now. And so I think it's— I definitely think it's beyond marketing. I think it starts with the CEO and You know, having someone for me, right, and someone with a clear vision, someone that, that communicates that very well, so I can see and agree with, yes, that's, that's what I want to be a part of. I believe in that company, I believe in its products, and, and I want to be a part of that. So I think it starts within. So HR and CEO are a big part of that. And then just communication, you know, having, building and amplifying that culture and leveraging that. I think that's where the marketing can come in and work real closely with those key stakeholders to amplify and get that out in the market from a recruitment perspective. But, you know, very much like a buyer, right? Buyers do a lot of research before they purchase a product. Employees do a lot of research before they sign up to, you know, join an organization. And you've got a lot of those Glassdoor— they're looking at reviews, right? And so what if we look at full transparency, you know, of companies and such, you know, what is— what are the people who are part of it saying about it? And, um, and, and so I think that is so important to hopefully bring the best and offer a really great environment for, for these employees. And then I think recruitment's easier and hopefully retention as well.

Yeah. And certainly the type of employment has changed. I mean, we are in a fractional executive space and it's— that wasn't, at least in marketing, that wasn't around 5 years ago. I mean, it wasn't popular. How has that changed, in your view, an employer's access to really great talent at a price point that's a fraction of what a full-time person would be?

I think it's exciting. If you look at my career, I've worked for smaller organizations, SMB. And so what I'm excited about with fractional CMOs is it brings— and let me go back. I've always liked the challenge of making those smaller guys appear bigger, right? And the internet helped with that, right? But appear bigger, a lot of capabilities, a lot of smart team members, customer-oriented. And I just really appreciate that opportunity to compete with the big gorillas out there. I think fractional CMO, fractional positions help as well. Because, you know, the enterprises, they can afford to bring in the in-house C-suite. At, you know, the SMBs, they can't. And so how can you tap expertise and experience? Because that— you can't get that just by giving someone a title. It really comes over time. And so, you know, with the fractional C-suite, you have the opportunity to really take some of the most talented people out there, um, and, and their expertise. And I've worked with a lot of them. We have the peer-to-peers, right, on your CMO. And I'm impressed every week of, you know, the different levels of expertise and that they bring. And, and that's what, um, you know, businesses will be able to tap into. And, um, again, I think it will just help them propel their business, um, without a huge, you know, um, cost, um, for them.

As we're going into the, you know, what looks to be some sort of recession, the fractional option for talent becomes even more appealing because cost is a real consideration. And with the fractional model, you can leverage somebody's expertise in a way that you can't by trying to hire that same person full-time. And a lot of times companies don't need 20 hours a week of Stacy, maybe they need 10, right? Or they don't— certainly don't need 40. And so Stacy now has the flexibility to give 10 or 20 or 30 in a fractional way. She's only got 40 to give unless you work extra. So you're going to give some of it to other clients. That's the kind of the tradeoff is that the employer's got to split the person with another person. But as long as it's a full-time fractional person, you're still responsive, you're still there, you're still available, and you're sharing your talents with multiple companies. So it's a, it's a real win-win, especially going into today's or tomorrow's economy.

Right, right. The other, one of the other values I think that they can benefit from is real-time learning. Right, that's transferable, right? As a fractional, right, I'm working with, say, 3 different clients. And so learnings that I gain from one, you know, program or strategy with one, one client, we can take those lessons and apply them again in the now, right? And so, so I think there's also real-time benefits of working with someone who's very plugged in and testing things across, you know, various, companies and clients.

Yeah. Well, and I, I like to think that, at your CMO, we scale wins. So a small win or a big win or a win that any client has, not only can that CMO share it with another client, like you mentioned, but because of our peer-to-peer, we can share it with each other and share it with multiple clients, and we can truly scale the wins that our CMOs are having with their clients in a way that you can't get from hiring a full-time person. You can't get it from an agency. You can't get get it from an independent fractional CMO. You can only get it from an organization like ours, and I think that's a huge value proposition for prospective companies for sure. Yep, I agree.

Yeah.

Well, let's switch gears a little bit. What does Stacey like to do for fun outside of work?

Well, I'm a family gal, so I love spending time with my family. I have 2 adult children, So I am a bit of an empty nester, but still love spending time with them and my husband. And I would say we're a bit of adventure seekers, right? So we love to travel and, you know, in most of our travel, seek new adventures. Caribbean's our favorite, one of our favorite destination spots, the different islands. But when we're here, I'm based in Colorado. And so, you know, just enjoying the outdoors, the beauty out here, love getting in the mountains, hiking. We also own a boat, so we go boating in the reservoirs around here. And yeah, just very active, staying very active.

I'm a soon-to-be empty nester myself, so share with me the joys of empty nesting.

Oh, I can focus on me and my husband and doing some, you know, kind of this new chapter, doing some things that we're passionate about, more, more of that traveling. Our kids were very active in sports. So, you know, the weekends, the nights, we're always getting them to and from the courts and fields and stuff. So yeah, it's— there's that freedom is really nice. The con, one of my, one of my kiddos is in California. So they're not close. But again, a good portion of our traveling is going to visit her and visiting all parts of California as well.

So yeah, it gives you an excuse to travel or a place to travel for sure.

Yep.

Um, so we've got one left and, uh, we're looking forward to, um, what our next chapter looks like as well. Mm-hmm. But I know there'll be some sadness that goes with it, just missing the, that activity and, and, uh, being, you know, close to your kids. But I found, I don't know if you've seen it yet with your kids, A few of my kids, two of my kids have been out of college for a couple years-ish each, and they're going through all these career decisions and journeys, and they come back and they ask questions to mom and dad and want advice and experience. And I just have personally got a lot of joy about participating in that experience as a consultant almost to my kids. I don't want to tell them what to do. I want them to figure it out. But I'm glad that they appreciate my input. And it's also energizing just to— I guess it's the way you say living vicariously through them, because the possibilities they have at this age and all the routes they can go and the choices they make, it's whatever they want it to be. At this stage, they can't make a wrong decision.

It feels like. Yeah, absolutely. I love those adult conversations. And, you know, being more of a, honestly, a friend, um, than the parenting. And, um, and then also I don't mind sharing it, you know, if I knew, you know, then what I know now, I would have done this differently, a few lessons, you know, and things like that.

But, um, yeah, it's, it's wonderful. It's like being a fractional parent, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Uh, yeah, no, we, we contrast that right now with, with a daughter who's a senior in high school. And so we still have to be very much a You know, a parent, uh, hands-on more than, uh, we'd like at times. But, uh, then we have these, uh, young adults that are— we can't parent it. My daughter came home last weekend and she spent the, uh, the weekend with us and she went out with friends one night and they went across an hour drive away and, and she didn't come home. I, I'd assumed she was spending the night out at her friend's house. And Amy, my wife, was, where's, where's Julie? Is she coming home? And I go, she's probably spending— well, she didn't tell us. She didn't. She's an adult. She's not— you know, she doesn't have to. So the next day, Amy's like, it would have been nice if you told us, Julie. She goes, well, I've been used to being out on my own. I remember I had to tell mom and dad what I'm doing.

I know, we still worry. We still worry.

Yeah, for sure. But when they're away in California, we worry a little less, I think, than when they're sitting in our 60-mile proximity, right?

Absolutely. Yeah, I will say I'm happy that our kids have the same interests and likes too, you know. So my big thing is, um, and I mentioned the Caribbean, I love— I really want all of us to be— get scuba certified. We've done our first dive in Cozumel, but we've not been scuba certified. And so I'm like, okay, Christmas gift. But then they both have significant others. And so I'm like, okay, so I had to ask both the significant others, would you be interested in diving and getting your— and they're like, yeah. I'm like, okay, great.

And stuff. Yeah, it gets expensive as they grow. You got plus ones, twos, and threes over time. For sure. We took our whole family this summer to Costa Rica. That was a big trip for us. We didn't know if everybody would be able to make it because they have vacations they have to request off, time off. But we were able to get everybody, all 6 of us there. But we specifically said no significant others. That's an expensive trip. And they were okay with it. But holidays are different. There'll be plenty of significant others around Thanksgiving. Family's growing. Yeah, it is. It's fun. Yeah. What is boating like in Colorado? Is it cold water? Like, can you get in the water?

It is. What do you do? July, you can get in the water. Um, it's, it's not like the ocean. Um, like my daughter, you know, she, uh, kind of went to school in SLO and so the central part of California and they're all wearing wetsuits when they're surfing, right? So no, you don't have to do that. Um, and stuff. 70s, I think. But yeah, the reservoirs, you know, there's not a lot of water. So everyone goes to the same destination. I grew up in the Midwest. So, you know, lots of different lakes and things like that.

But go to Lake Mack.

Now, where's that? McConaughey? Oh, McConaughey. I've heard about it. I actually haven't been there yet. But so we go to Horsetooth and Carter and up to Glendo, which is up in Wyoming. And but our favorite place is Lake Powell. Which is so far down right now.

Yeah.

And so, uh, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's fun.

We love, uh, the water's really low in Lake Powell.

It is. It is. Yeah. Some areas you can't get to that you used to be able to.

Yeah. What's the prognosis?

Is it going to fill back up? I, nature will tell, you know, we just, I don't know. We have to have lots of good snowpack years and yeah. Um, Not anytime soon, I don't think.

I think I heard it might be a, a wet and, and snowy winter for, for many of us, and that's, that would be helpful, right?

That would be great.

Yep.

How much skiing do you do? I personally, the rest of my family does ski. I snowshoe. Um, I actually, it's my fault because I had, um, knee problems when I was in high school, had surgery, and you know, as you get older, it probably needs to be relooked at. And so, um, I don't ski, um, but I love snowshoeing and yeah, getting up in the mountains and playing in the snow.

Yeah. What is— is snowshoeing just like hiking with big flappy feet?

It is kind of like a racket on your—

and they're not like— yeah, I've seen them. But so, uh, what is the purpose of the racket? Is it because you're walking on like fresh-packed snow and it keeps you from falling through?

Is that— yeah, you can walk in 2 to 4 feet of snow. It's a great workout., and stuff. As you sink, it won't let you sink all the way. Uh, so yeah, yeah.

Oh, and snowmobiling is the other winter sport I love. Now I heard that is, um, that can be quite incredibly dangerous.

How do you snowmobile? Tell me. Well, you, we rent, we go to like Grand Lake and, and it will, uh, you know, they have different areas that, um, the park and stuff like that that you can go back into and just, it's just this open kind of like a bowl, right? Just open snow area and you just kind of go wherever. And as long as it's, you know, not crowded, which they do try to control that and stuff.

It's— yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. I have a couple of friends that are very aggressive snowmobilers and they go like all over the place, tipping over sideways, upside down. It's like dangerous people getting injured. It sounded, it sounded a little bit too much for me. So there is a, a more passive scenic way to snowmobile.

Yes. More controlled.

Yes. Yes. For sure.

Yeah. It's probably like whatever your taste, whatever your temperament. Yeah.

It's the difference between maybe like dirt biking and, and riding a moped. Right. Exactly. I prefer the moped. Mm-hmm. I'm not much of a dirt bike or Harley guy.

I've never. Ever ridden? Nope. I, I've done moped.

I've not done motorcycle. Yeah. Yeah. I got a little, I got a little moped for my son when he was, uh, in high school because we needed an extra car. We had 4 kids, so we just couldn't buy 6 cars. Just didn't make any sense. So I got him a moped and, uh, he loved it. He was riding back and forth to school. And then my daughter, who's just a couple years younger than him, when it was time for her to get a car, I said, well, we got this moped. She goes, Dad, I'm not riding a moped. There's no way. I wear dresses. I wear— I'm a cheerleader.

I can't wear—

oh, the hair, the hair.

So yeah, she got a car. Yeah, yeah, that probably suits her.

Yeah. Well, good. Well, I'm excited to visit you in Colorado. I'll be out there, uh, this weekend, but I don't think I can sneak in a visit. We're taking my son, on a trip to Estes for the weekend. So we'll be out there enjoying the nature. But, um, when I do get out there in person, we'll spend some more time together and I'm looking forward to that.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you need to know of any good hikes in Estes, I can send a couple of my faves. Oh, what are your faves? Um, Gem Lake is really good. And, um, but you always remember you have to probably have reservations right now, uh, just because Ever since the pandemic, I think they've kept the reservations. And I think it's— I want to say Lily Lake is one that doesn't need reservations. But yeah, there's a lot.

There's probably at least a dozen different trails up there, but those are two of my favorites. I didn't even think that we need a reservation, so I'll check into that.

Oh yeah. And if you're going into Rocky Mountain National Park, make sure that—

yeah, yeah, check into that. Okay.

Well, thanks for the warning. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I went up there with my sister one time and we had to turn right back around, so.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I better do that. Hopefully it's not too late.

My wife would kill me. You should be good.

I think it's just the day before. Yeah. It's the day before. Okay. Well, that's good to know. Well, Stacy, thanks for being on the, the podcast. It was a lot of fun and, uh, I'm sure our guests enjoyed it as well, but thank you very much for your time.

Absolutely. I appreciate it. Um, and I look forward to, I guess, talking to you soon.

Yeah. Thanks, Joe. Yep. And to our listeners, thank you. Uh, look forward to talking to you further. If you want to reach out to Stacy, if something she said sparked your interest, if you want to figure out what size snowshoe she wears or anything else, um, you can reach her at Stacy@yourcmo.com, Y-O-R-C-M-O.com.

But is there any place else, Stacey, you'd like people to reach out to you? Sure. I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn. Feel free to reach out.

And yeah, look forward to it. OK, we'll have those contact details in the show notes. So look forward to talking to everybody next week. Thank you for listening. And we will talk soon. And that's a wrap. There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by YorCmo, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at YorCmo.com. YorCmo.com, spelled wrong on purpose.