Modern Day Marketing - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode # 028

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be.

Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy.

Welcome. Today's guest believes that every person and brand has a potential waiting to be untapped. He has strong B2C experience in marketing. He's a dynamic marketer and a commercial executive. He's actually one of our CMOs at Your CMO. Welcome, Eric Johnson. I'm glad to have you on the show today.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Yeah, it's always good to, to officially interview somebody from my own team on the podcast. But in this capacity, you're certainly a fractional CMO that's got a lot of experience to share with our audience. So I want to start off with the same question I start with all of our guests, and that comes straight from the thought process of how can we help educate C-suite leaders. So what's the one opportunity that you see that, you know, many C-suite leaders might not be aware of or might be interested in learning more about?

I mean, obviously there are a lot of things to consider as you're thinking about your business. One area that I have had a lot of experience with over the years, and actually I'm working with right now, the client I'm working with right now, is really aligning sales and marketing. Now, that, as I say that, that sounds pretty simple. That sounds to a lot of people probably pretty obvious. And, but what I've seen over the years and what I'm seeing right now with my current client is that's not always the case. A lot of times marketing is doing one thing and sales is doing another thing. And they don't take the time to really connect so that they're really working off the same sheet of music.. And so I think that's one of the most powerful things I've learned over my years is just how do I, as a marketing executive, as a marketing leader, really build plans with sales in mind? And so everything we do, what is the sales application of that, that we just built? And so I think that's a, that's a critical thing. And I think that's what I'm seeing right now with the client I'm working with now, are they're responding to that really well, is to say, I'm going to develop this and the sales approach from that is going to be this. And I think that's a huge thing.

And without naming names of the client, but just kind of going through some details about that process, what does that entail? Does that start with reaching out to the sales leaders and getting in a room together and huddling and figuring it out together? Is it like, how do you go about approaching that?

I think really the, you know, when I think about leadership, and that's really the role that I'm in with this client, when I think about leadership, a lot of people talk. A lot of people say we need to do this. A lot of people say we never did that, etc. A lot of people say a lot of things. But for me, leadership is really taking that first step. And so let's lay this out. Well, you know, let's put it on a piece of paper and lay out this is the goal that we're trying to shoot for. This is the plan that we are building, that we are going to chase. I think so. I've taken that opportunity and I always have throughout my career. And also with this current client is I put it all on paper. I mean, 4 or 5 pages. I'm able to articulate, this is what I see as our plan that we're going to go follow. And then very quickly, once I've kind of taken that lead, is absolutely getting the whole sales team on the phone and walking them through every single page. Walking them through every idea to say, help me make that idea better. What will work better? What will not work? You know, what do we need to change? And really work it that way. So we've done, you know, so I laid out this whole plan to the sales team the other day, and I allowed them basically an hour and a half to really go through the whole plan and critique each part of the plan to say, this is what's really going to make it work. And so I think that It was my leadership was to kind of bring them the plan, but 2, to share that plan. And now 3, I've digested that plan and I've played it back to them. This is what we landed on. So I did that this morning and everybody, including the head of the whole group, says this plan is awesome. You've done a fantastic job bringing the marketing and sales together.

And so what does that look like when you bring it together? Is it, is it about aligning the objectives, about aligning the message, about aligning the the metrics, how we're going to measure success? What are some of the particulars that go into that?

I mean, the key thing is aligning kind of the objectives. So, this is what we're shooting for. And so, they basically set a goal of we need 30 new, we need 30 new basically meetings a week. That's how they sell because they have a meeting with their clients. So, our goal was to hit 30 a week. And so we lay that goal out and then we lay out here all the marketing tactics that I'm going to put in place, you know, whether that's going to be social media, whether that's going to be, you know, email, whether that's going to be, you know, different things that we do, how we're going to bring kind of all those, you know, people to the table. And so that's kind of what we're going— well, I'm going for is how am I going to make sure that you hit your sales goal. Of 30 a week. And so that's really what we, we laid out. And through that conversation, we basically said we know these tactics will work and we believe that we're going to generate the needed, you know, the amount that we need.

And then do you get involved in also kind of scripting some of the conversations that happen during the sales meeting and then after sales activity, or is it more just right now the alignment's focused on let's get you the get to conversations?

Um, at a high level, I basically helped draft, you know, here is the message, um, for the— so we basically mapped out for 120 days, this is going to be our marketing and our sales approach. And so with the plan that I just reiterated, I mapped out for each one of those months in that 120 days This is what the sales message needs to be to tie to the message we're going to be having going into the market. And so this month is going to be about get your athletes ready. You know, this month is make sure your athletes are on the field. And basically map it out month by month. This is the marketing message and then how does that relate to here's the sales message. So now when they have phone calls and when they're talking to people, Hopefully they just got a marketing message that's now gonna be exactly what they're gonna talk to them as a salesperson. So that's how we did it.

So the salespeople know what the marketing message is. So when they're talking to a prospect who may see that marketing message at any time during the sales process, at least there's not a disconnect into what marketing's saying.

They get the same message. And so it's connected across the same message, either on the phone or in the mail or online. Online. So, yes.

That's terrific. So, you know, just launching, we'll have to like follow up with a second podcast to see how it went in 120 days. So, you can brag about the results. But right now that alignment has started and that's the key, getting both sides to work together, same sides to work together is the major opportunity for other C-suite leaders to learn from, that we've got to get that sales and marketing alignment happening earlier in the process. Right. So from a, from a marketing perspective, what are some of the other unique things going on in the industry or going on in the marketplace right now that you think are worth being aware of? A lot of stuff going on in our world with post-pandemic and global issues with the war. And are there things that are impacting marketing that in a general sense or even a specific sense that you've been tapping into?

I think, you know, I think one of the big things that's definitely surfaced, you know, I would say over the last year is, you know, and I, you know, and I grew up in marketing for, you know, some very large companies with relatively large marketing budgets. And so we were able to tell a pretty big story, you know, and we told a story of hope. We told a story that made you feel good. We told a story that made you laugh. I mean, we were able to tell some pretty big stories to really change the way you feel about us, but also about yourself. And I think as, as you know, and that was fun. I mean, as a marketer, that there can't be anything more fun than making people laugh. And so I think that's always great. I think what I've seen change, you know, and over the last year is we've got a lot more, you a lot more things going on in the world that are not positive. They're not hopeful. They're not uplifting. They're not funny. Whether it be different shootings and things like that happening, the pandemic basically crushed us all, putting us in our house and things like that. And so I think, and now, and depending on whether you care or not, the stock market is down for the last year and a half. You know, and so if you care about that and you see that, that's also a little bit disheartening. So I think one of the things I've seen from a marketing standpoint is, although all those things I said earlier are definitely still positive things about marketing, I think marketing today has got to be a lot more transparent, a lot more honest. You You know, and I think you've got to be, you know, you're not really selling the dream. I think you're really selling the, I understand you, I know what you're going through, you know, we're going to get through this together. And so I think it's a lot more transparent. It's a lot more, you know, down to earth kind of a message than probably it was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. And so I think that's a big thing. I think right now from a marketing standpoint, it's that search for authenticity that's probably never been higher.

Does that make sense? Absolutely. And it is, you know, people are more responsive to authenticity always, I think, more than a sales message. But especially now after what everybody's been through, like, let's be real, let's get real is on everybody's mind. And do you see that as a primary message, a primary role of the marketing group, is to craft that authentic story for everybody in the organization to be aware of and to be telling at any point in their interaction with the customer?

I think it's critical. That's why I think on every level, as a company, as we go into the market, I think we have to tell that, an authentic story about who our business is. And that's gonna happen from a marketing message standpoint. We gotta have salespeople kind of telling that same authentic message. And even then, and even in roles like investor relations and things like that, this isn't about, we're gonna hit this big target and all these great ideas. It's more about what is our authentic, we're gonna hit the growth that we believe is possible. It's a much more authentic message across the board.

Anyway, so I know one of the challenges that many people are having right now is, is hiring and retaining team members at all levels of the organization. How does market— how can marketing play a role in helping an organization with its recruiting retention efforts?

Well, I think, I think marketing at the end of the day has got to be the ones that tell the story. And that story needs to be broader than just a marketing story. I think that needs to be the story of the company. So what does this company believe in? What does this company live by? You know, what are the goals and objectives that this company is going to, you know, talk about? And then how do you as an individual fit into that? You know, and I think companies have got to do a much better job of telling their story. This is what we believe in, this is how we're going to make the world a better place, and then if you work here, this is how you fit into that, and this is how you personally can benefit from that, but also, you know, really let your voice sing in what we're trying to do. And so I think that's a big thing right now, is companies have got to take a bigger role in having a bigger message, but then they also have to enroll their employees in that message and how they fit.

Yeah, I think it's a, it's a big opportunity for the marketing department to help out with that, that big need that companies have right now from a—

I mean, you look at some companies, I mean, if you look at a lot of companies right now because of everything that's kind of gone wrong, whether it be supply chain things, whether it be pricing, what all the things that we're dealing with right now a lot of companies have kind of taken a step back. And so instead of saying anything, they've basically gone the other way. I'm going to be quiet. I'm going to shut up. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to, you know, so they're really not representing themselves. And so I think that's a big piece. And so if you've got a company that's not telling its story and really trying to uplift the world as an employee, you're like, do I want to be part of that? You I want to be part of somebody that's really making changes in the world. So I think that's part of it.

Yeah. I think I saw a graph the other day about the great resignation and it had rates of resignation by age group, which I thought was interesting because I initially look at it as a younger problem. Like you got kids out of college that are moving around and switching jobs. But actually the largest increase in resignations was at the 50 to 60, the older age groups. And I look at that as, I don't know if it was exactly 50 or 60, but it was the highest age group on the graph, which would mean more senior people typically. I think you would think about that, senior in the management. And that dovetails right into what we do as fractional executives. We're in that class of age, senior experience. And so I was surprised at how many people at that age group are actually resigning and going out and doing something different. Now, I don't know if they're getting rehired for another full-time opportunity or if they're doing what what I see a lot of our team members do, which is go out on a fractional space and become consultants and build practices. You're relatively new into the fractional space, going from full-time to the fractional. What do you see as that trend? Is it going to continue to grow? Are people looking for this as a career path? And then what does that mean for C-suites and opportunities to bring in people differently rather than full-time in a fractional capacity. What is your take?

My take is I think it's going to continue, and I think it's on two levels. I think one, on the employee level, you know, when you hit that certain age, as you laid out, you know, I've done a lot, I've seen a lot, you know, I've got a lot of experience that I've developed over 20, 25, 30 years. You know, now I would love to be able to use that experience and really help other people who really need it. Like my current company, I've been here for a while, might not see everything I can do. They might not appreciate everything I can do. And so I can actually go out working with new companies who actually will see the value that I bring immediately, and I can really kind of operate at a much higher level. I think from the company's perspective is, I think you've got a lot of companies, and I've worked for a couple of them, where you have a lot of the senior leadership there. That senior leadership has been there for a while, and now we are in significant need of growing, significant need of increasing margin, and really, you know, in significant need of new thinking that we haven't had. And so I think from a company standpoint is how do I go out from a fractional perspective and bring in some new thinking, you know, in a fractional way. So I'm not making a 10-year commitment to you, but I'm making a fractional commitment to I need you to really jumpstart my business or really think about things differently than we've been thinking about. And so I think that's going to be the power from the company's perspective.

And what do you think the, you know, the companies that haven't embraced fractional work or, uh, or in this, in this manner, what would you say are the— what are the top 3 real what's the right word I'm looking for, reasons why that a fractional solution might be better than a new full-time? What would you say the top 3 reasons to choose fractional over full-time might be?

Whether it be marketing, IP— Why would fractional as an employee, as a company?

Yeah. What would you tell a prospective company? And it doesn't have to be marketing, but like what are the top 3 reasons why you would choose to engage a professional fractionally at the C-suite level or the leadership level versus hiring full-time?

Well, I think, I think one is, you know, I think in a simplistic way it eliminates some of your risk. And so if you make that commitment to a new full-time you know, C-suite person, you've made some sort of financial commitment and some sort of a, just an overall commitment to somebody. Whereas if you hired someone who's a fractional person, you've made a commitment, but that commitment is for a shorter period of time. And, you know, I think that's going to be, you know, that's something that you might be able to work better with, you know what I mean? And, you know, and do that. I think the other piece of this is One of the reasons you would hire fractional is, and I'm seeing this now because I've been hired fractionally in some different roles, is I can make things happen faster. Whereas the person that's already sitting in that seat, or if I've hired somebody full-time, things are going to move slower. You know, things are going to be more deliberate. Things are going to be thought out more so that basically you're protecting yourself. You know, I had a great, you know, our, our, our president today that I'm working for at my current one current client. He said to me, he says, look, Eric, I don't want you bogged down by our organization. I want you taking the reins. I want you working with other agencies. I need you to be the one providing direction to everybody. Nothing against our team, nothing against them, but I hired you for that reason. And I was like, perfect, you know. So I think that's another benefit to a company is you can hire this fractional person to do some things that you may or may not be comfortable with telling your own people to do, or to go faster when they might not be comfortable doing that.

Very interesting. Yeah, certainly the, uh, having an outsider come in at any capacity It gives a lot of different freedoms for the ownership team or leadership team to be able to let them go a little hog wild that they wouldn't want just the traditional full-time person to be doing. That makes sense. What are some of the challenges you see as a fractional leader that are different from when you were a full-time leader?

I think in that same storyline we were just going is One of the powerful things about coming in as an outside leader to these organizations is now presidents, CEOs can tell you, hey, I need you to go faster, I need you to think bigger, I need you to, you know, get more done than maybe my team is doing that, without insulting the team. And I think so, one of the big challenges is I realize that, I realize what he's doing, I realize what he's asking me to do, At the same time, I have to work with his team. I have to work with the people he's already got in place. And so I actually spend probably more time than if I was actually employed by them, working to make sure I'm aligned with his team, you know. So I've spent like this week, I've had 3 meetings with the sales team. And if I was actually the guy running the show at the company, I probably would have only met with them once. But I've actually taken the time to meet with them 3 times to make sure the sales team is aligned with what we're building. And then I have a marketing team under me now who works there, and I'm doing the same thing as I'm walking her through. This is how I'm thinking about things. This is what we've done in the past. This is how I think we can do this better, and really bringing her into the conversation so that she can ultimately own it. And so without me kind of being the heavy that the big guy brought in, I'm actually now working through the team to make them go faster, to make them think bigger, to make them really be better. And so that's kind of what I'm trying to do.

I'm curious, do you think that you have to spend more time because you have to— there's a trust gap because you're not full-time, that the, the team members needed more time with you to trust you, to work more collaboratively with you? Or do you think it's because you're hybrid in a way, it takes more time to get the same amount of stuff done than if you would have been there in person?

I think I view it as a trust gap, you know, and potentially a trust gap, you know, and so I'm trying to avoid that. But I think, you know, I think that's— they know you're being brought in by the boss and You can only assume that if they're bringing in this guy to do this work, what I'm doing is not good enough, right? And then we obviously never have that conversation. Um, and I don't want to have that conversation, but that's the trust I'm trying to overcome is to make sure they realize I'm just there to help you. I'm not here to take your job. I'm not here to replace the work you're doing. All I'm here to do is to help, you know, I'm really here to help make you perform better and to help your performance. And so this is nothing about me taking your job or anything like that. All I'm here to do is to help the company be stronger.

And if you were there full-time, there would still be that trust gap? Do you think it'd be different because it was a full-time commitment, full-time role? There would be some accepted or assumed trust that came with that? It's a new idea that I hadn't really fleshed out. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on it.

I mean, in any role, and I've been, you know, and I've been working in large companies for a long time, um, I think in general large companies or any even mid-sized companies, just any size companies, anytime someone new comes into any situation, there's always going to be a trust gap. What's his angle? What does he really want? What does he think of me? You know, why is he here? I mean, there's always, doesn't matter if you're full-time or what, I think you always are having to, you know, overcome, sounds like a big word, but you are overcoming a trust gap. And the only way I think you can do that is to really clearly demonstrate I'm not here to take over the work. I'm not here to do it my way. I'm here to make this team better and I'm here to make you better. And so that's it, you know, and I think that's something I know that sounds really simplistic, but I think that's something I've always just focused on because I've come into, you know, I've been appointed by other CEOs and presidents when I was at full-time companies and they say, Eric, you're the only one that can get this done. I need you to come in and lead it. Okay, fine. But you know, someone's leading it now. And he goes, yes, I know that. So, but at the same time, I'm coming in to basically do that better. And so it's the same thing, I think. So whether I'm fractional or whether I'm full-time, I think you're always kind of, you know, overcoming that trust gap sounds negative, but that's sort of what you're doing.

You're building trust with the team. But at the same token, it's a— what I heard you say at the beginning is there's a little extra energy and effort as a fractional than as it would be as a full-time? And is that because there's more gap to overcome because it's not a— you're not a new full-time player, you're a potential part-time short-term critic, if you will? Or is it just because of logistically you're not able to spend as much time, so it's got to be much more intentionally determined?

Well, I think it has a couple different factors. I think one factor is you're truly coming in as an outsider. And so you didn't grow up in the organization, you didn't come from a different department, you didn't come from another part of the company. You're truly coming in as an outsider. So I think that's one gap that you've got to overcome is like, this guy doesn't know anything about our business at all. And so you, you're kind of overcoming kind of your knowledge gap of like, okay, I know what this company does. I don't know how this company can operate. So I think that's the first one. I think the other piece of it is obviously you're coming in as an outsider, and people are like, well, why couldn't we solve this inside? Why couldn't we solve this internally? And so there's always going to be that gap of like, why they have to bring in somebody from the outside to do this work? And so I think that's the other part of it. So I think it's, it's a multi-factor, it's a multi-dimensional you know, thing you're overcoming. And a lot of it is really just— it's, it's less about making sure you've got all the boxes checked, and it's as much about learning. So I have to learn this company quickly. You know, I've had to learn my latest client— I had to basically learn the whole client in like 3 days. You know, I only had 3 days to learn it because I had to present something the end of the first week. And so I don't have 3 months to kind of dig in and go meet with everybody and I don't have time to spend the time to learn the company. I got to learn it quick. So anyway, so that's another piece.

Yeah, that's a big piece. You got to learn fast and you kind of have to focus on the most important things in order to learn fast. You can't learn all the nitty-gritty, but you got to learn the 20% that gets you 80% of the way there. What are some of the other nuances of working as a fractional versus full-time?

I think the— some of— one of the other nuances that's been a— has been a good one for me working in a fractional space is obviously I'm bringing in a wealth of experience, you know what I mean? So I've worked a lot with consumer products over the years. You know, I did a little bit of B2B work when I used to work in pharmaceuticals years ago. You know, I had kind of a B2B role at a large packaging company. And so I had to basically work for that company, really supporting other industries. And so, you know, so having to really take on a B2B role to how do I help other companies become better using our services? And so I've been able to kind of— I'm lucky that I've been able to kind of work on a broad array of different clients. And I think one of the things, even in this latest client that I'm working with, I realize is, you know, I've got this experience in this one chance, in this one opportunity I did here that is closely related to what we're doing here. And so you're being— me being able to kind of pull from my arsenal of experience, you know, whereas people who've been working at this company for 15, 20 years only know that perspective, only know that company's perspective, whereas I can bring in experience from 10 different companies and share with them to say, oh yeah, well, I, one time I had a chance to do this and this is how it worked. So I think that's another big thing as a fractional, is you're working with different kinds of industries that you can actually bring in experience from across the industries. Yeah.

If you were to tell a potential company owner or C-level leader who was tasked to hire a fractional XYZ marketer, IT, CFO, whatever, what are the 3 things you would say definitely hire for this, this, and this? Personalities, characteristics, what do they need to look for?

What personalities they need to hire for?

Well, what are the 3 things you think they need to look for when they hire? What are the 3 litmus tests you need to hire You do this, this, and this.

Um, I think if I was looking to hire, you know, I think the, you know, the first, the first thing I want this person to be able to demonstrate is, is that they have a growth mode point of view. How are we going to grow? How are we going to change so that we can grow? And so having that, I think having a growth perspective is always first. I think the second one is I need someone, you know, who's going to go beyond talking about issues and jump right in. I need somebody to really tackle the problems head on, you know, without dancing around the edges of the problem, but just like, let's dive in and really tackle that problem head on. And really understand what's holding us back. What do we need to do? You know, what are the obstacles we need to overcome? But a lot of people have a hard time just jumping right in and diving on the problem. And so I think that's the second thing. I think the third one is you've got to have a really strong rhythm about how you're working with the organization and how you're bringing forward kind of your MO as to how we're going to win. And so I think it's kind of bringing in your own personal MO of here's how we're going to win, here's how we're going to do things, but doing that in a way that actually makes the team stronger and not, you know, against the team or alienating the team. So I think that's the third piece is you got to be able to really be clear about what you're doing but also bring the team along with So those are the 3 things I would say.

Those are great. So somebody with a growth mindset, somebody— or perspective— somebody that's going to jump in, tackle the problem head-on, figure things out, get to work, uh, and then somebody who's bringing kind of a proven process that can be integrated with the client's proven process and collaborative, not just a, uh, my way or the highway approach, right?

No, I think that's right. I think those are the 3 things for me.

How important is a cultural fit with the organization?

I think it really helps. You know, I would say that it's completely critical, you know, but I've worked in some organizations where I wasn't a perfect fit that I was able to make positive things happen. But at the same time, the places where it was a very strong fit with the way I believe, the way I, you know, behaved, etc., it was a hell of a lot easier. It was a lot easier. It was, it was a lot easier, and it was a lot more fun, you know, to know that you're in lockstep with the leadership of the company. Um, and so you're not, you know, I'm not worrying about my words. I'm not, I'm not kind of running upstream. I'm not doing any of those things. I'm really it's downstream, it's how fast can you go, how much growth can we unlock? So you're aligned with that leadership that way. It's just a lot more fun and a lot easier.

Yeah. I hear that a lot from other fractionals. It's a full-time issue as well. There needs to be a culture fit. Everybody's much stronger when there is a fit and it works best if you can flush that out early on in in the engagement, before the engagement ideally, if that fits there or not. Well, let's shift gears just quickly just to leadership in general. It's a topic that I'm exploring and trying to understand from different viewpoints, different leaders. What do you think are— how would you describe the main priority of a leader? Like, what is a leader supposed to do? What's the role of a leader?

I mean, for me, in simple terms, it's about— leadership is about engaging a team and engaging that team to build a plan that's going to make us more successful. Whether that's growth, whether that's margin, whether wherever that, however you define success, a leader is able to engage a team and bring that team into, you know, bring that team into an agreement is that this is how we're going to lead the company into growth. And I think that's, for me, that's the, that's the essence of leadership is how can you take the team and really build a plan for action and growth. So anyway.

And what are some of the characteristics of a good leader?

I think what we talked about earlier, one of the essences of is finding that leader who will really take things head on, you know, and really kind of go after, here is the issue, here's the opportunity, you know, here's what's holding us back. Or here's what can allow us to grow.

And really, what would you call that? Like, is that, uh, what term, what describes that? What word would you use or phrase?

I mean, for me, it's like, you know, what is the true north of this company, you know, and how do we achieve that, you know, versus what we're doing today or what we're thinking about now? It's like, how do we really define—

so is it vision? Like a leader has vision?

I think, I think a leader has vision for what we could be and vision for what we need, you know, vision for how we could get there. And I think that's, that's the key thing is like, what's the destination and how are we going to get there? And so a leader is able to kind of tie those two points together very quickly and then secondarily engage an organization in a way that makes it feel like it's their plan. You know, so the organ— he brings the idea, he brings forward the framework, but he engages the organization in a way that allows them to build it out. And so that then ultimately they own it. And so a great leader is basically able to build an aligned plan for growth.

If you think of some of the leaders that you've been around that meet that kind of, uh, have those characteristics that you think make them great? What are some of the other words you'd use to describe those leaders?

You know, I think when I look back across my years of doing this, looking at really, you know, the really strong leaders that kind of came around in my life, you know, I think those leaders came to me and said, You know, I need you to dream a bigger dream. I need you to understand where could we be. Don't worry about where we are, but where could we be if we really took the right steps? And so I think when I look back at some of the leaders who influenced me in life, they asked me that, you know, and I need you to dream a bigger dream. Tell me where we could be. I think the other, you know, the other, I had a great leader you know, to this day. He sat me down in his office and he's like, and he says, Eric, you know, I've chosen you to take on the role as you're taking on, because you've proven to me among all the people in your, you know, in your group, you're able to get things done quicker. You're able to make things happen. You're able to move teams. He says, the one leadership quality I need you to remember, he says, there's no one else in my organization that I would pick to lead us up the hill. No one else other than you to lead them up the hill. But what I need you to realize as a leader is when you get to the top of the hill, when you look back, did you bring the team with you or are you there by yourself? And so that was his way of saying is like, Eric, you're 3 steps ahead of everybody. But you've got to make sure you're leading a team. You got to make sure your team gets to the top of the hill with you. So if you leave everybody at the bottom of the hill and you're on top, you didn't accomplish it. So that was a great— he was a great leader in my mind. He reminded me of that. It's like, my only power is that I get a team to the top of the hill, not just myself. And so I've always kind of— that's always stuck with me, is making sure that I'm focused on the team, and is the team tracking with what we're doing? So I think that's another great—

Yeah, I love that. That's a good one. That's a really good one. Yeah, leadership's hard. I mean, there's so many— I ask this question a lot and I get a lot of different answers. Vision comes up common. A leader, good leader, has the ability to establish a vision, share a vision, coax vision from others. I like how you mentioned the leaders that have influenced you have asked you to bring vision, to have a bigger vision. Because that's different than them setting the vision for you. They're embracing your ability to create your own vision. Development has come up quite a bit as an answer, developing your team, developing others around you, developing. And I think that's kind of what you're alluding to. You got to bring the team with you. They got to develop and they got to go and they got to grow to get there also. But really team, building that teamwork, everybody top of the mountain, That's kind of a fresh idea that I hadn't heard before. I like it.

Yeah, that was a good one that stuck with me for 20 years. So, yeah, you know, because no, I do— it's funny when I'm leading a big thing and we're moving at 75 miles an hour and everything is going forward, I always take a chance to like look around to make sure there's still people with me. I didn't leave them, you know, you know, as, you know, ashes in the background, they're actually still with me. So anyway, that's something I still look at.

Well, that hits home to me as a visionary leader. I am oftentimes, and other visionaries that I know are oftentimes way ahead of the rest of the team. And that's— there's a lot of positives from that. And but then, as you mentioned, you need to stop and just look back and step back sometimes and just make sure everybody's come along with, because it's no fun getting there by yourself. And sometimes you can't get much done there by yourself either.

So that's why they often say leadership is lonely. You know what I mean? That's what they always, you know, I've heard that term and I never understood it, but I can understand it. Like, I'm the only one that understands this. I'm the only one that's, I'm really diving in hard to get this done. And it's like, well, that's your fault as the leader, not bringing people along with you. And so that's why you're alone is because you've created it. So anyway.

Well, and that's why I think probably to your earlier point, that's why you spend that extra time early on with your team so that they're with you and they understand you. And those extra 2 or 3 meetings that you had with the sales group or the extra 2 or 3 meetings you have with your marketing leaders, underneath you or with you is so that you're together and that, that's building that teamwork and that's getting them aligned and that's getting them to the same place with you, uh, ideally when you get there.

Right.

That's— that makes sense. That's awesome. Um, let's switch gears again. What do you like to do for fun?

Um, I've got two sports that I play vigorously. I play golf and I play pickleball.

Yeah, which one do you like more?

I don't know. I mean, I love, I love both. I really, I've really become kind of a pickleball junkie. So I'm looking at playing in tournaments and stuff like that. So I'm like, yeah, so I don't know. I love both. I love my golf game has been really good lately. I've been shooting some of my lowest scores ever. Problem is my handicap's going the wrong way. I can't have a lower handicap. That doesn't make me competitive.

No one wants you as a partner.

I've been playing, yeah, I've been playing really good golf, but I love pickleball.

Yeah, pickleball is something I picked up a few years ago at the little camp, summer camp we always go— not a camp, but a summer location we go to with my wife's family. There's like 30, 40 of us that get there every year and they had this pickleball court out there, a couple of them, and we just started playing for fun. And I had never played before and it's a fun game. It's just, it is, you can play it at any level. Like you don't have to be super athletic to enjoy a game of pickleball, but if you are, it's a little more fun, but it's just, it's a good game.

Yeah, no, I play 3 days a week on the dime.

So I was at a pickleball tournament a couple years ago. I came back from this summer vacation and was talking about playing pickleball with a buddy of mine and he's like, well, let's go play at this tournament that's going on at the Y. Like, okay, that sounds like fun. And then he goes, should we sign up for beginner, intermediate, experienced? I go, I don't know, we're young enough, let's just be intermediate. So we sign up as intermediate. Neither of us had played a whole lot. We show up and I'm in my late 40s and he's in his late mid-30s. So I figure we got a good shot at at being competitive. And then I see the people we're playing against and they're all looking like they're in their late 50s, early 60s. We got this. Those guys and gals just lit us up. I couldn't believe— I'm like this— they're— that we were bumping into each other, running. We were looking like dazed and confused after the first 2 games. One of the team members, one of the players on the other team said, 'Uh, do you guys want some lessons before we play the next game?' We had no idea what we were doing. We just got chewed up. There's some good players out there at all ages.

Oh, it's amazing. There's a guy that plays with us, name is Bob. He's 65, 66, and he plays 5 days a week. Um, and he could, you know, and he plays, and I, I joke because I play at the country club. And so I played country club pickleball, right? Whatever the hell that means. And he plays in the city. I said, dude, I can't go down to the hood. I can't play in the hood. I got to play at the club. And he always jokes with me. He's like, just not the hood, man. It's good. But he plays like 5 days a week, but he comes out to the country club like 1 or 2 days a week. And he just wins every match. You're like, damn it, you know. It's like he's 65 and like, how the hell? And he's just— every shot is perfect, every shot is well placed, every— I'm like, God Almighty, you know what I mean? So I'm like, I'm on Bob's team. As soon as he shows up, I'm like, I'm on Bob's, just so I can win, you know. Because it's just like— because he comes out and he just— he wins like every— I'm like, how the hell does he win every match, you know?

Yeah, too bad they can't handicap pickleball players.

Players. But it's just, but no, but to your point is, you know, some of the older guys are just awesome. There's one guy that plays with us, 85, and he's, he's kind of a freak of nature, to be honest with you, because he still plays tennis. You know, he even plays tennis with my wife and she's a 4.5 and he plays tennis with her. And I'm like, yeesh. Um, you know, and it's like, but he plays pickleball with us and he's mean as hell, hit it right off your damn head. I mean, he's just like, he hit you right in the chest on purpose. You're like, Jesus, dude, you know? And it's like, but he's, he hits the crap out of the ball and he's like 85 years old. But I'm like, you know, I'm like, you're like a feisty old man. What the hell? But yeah, no, but this is a fun sport because it's, what's cool about it is you can play to your point. So anyway, it's, but I think it's a, it's a cool sport because You can play young, old. Now we got some young guys coming out, like really young, like 17, 18-year-olds coming out and playing with us, you know. And then we get, you know, then we get a couple of the college kids come back. When they come back in the summer, they play with us. So now we've got a whole litany of like 17 to 85 playing with us.

Yeah. Um, it's fun. It's a good game. And then, uh, yeah, it's one of those games you can play for a long time. You know, like even like golf is the same way. You can play golf, it's different, but you can, you're always playing at any age and competitive because of your handicaps and because of the, where you can drive from. As you age, you can still enjoy that game. Pickleball is the same. You can still enjoy pickleball as you're aging. And it's nice for us that are aging that we can find sports like that, that we can enjoy for a long period of time.

Yeah, so those are my, those are my two things. And I'm, I'm kind of a dog lover. We have two cool dogs and I do spend a lot of time with my dogs.

Yeah. Yeah, we've got a new puppy here. It's a, she's a Maltese-Poodle mix and she's like a teddy bear that is alive. The cutest little thing. And we've, it's about 9 months old now. We're finally Gunning her over the potty training. Still has an accident here or there, but man, that— I hadn't had a puppy in the house for years. I had forgotten about that stage. That's a lot of work. Getting those dogs ready to be potty trained is not something I wanna do again anytime soon.

Yeah, we don't have that, you know, but we have— our dogs are funny. Like we have a Brittany, if you know what a Brittany is. So he's basically a hunting dog. And he just cracks me up every day. 'Cause we have a 2-acre yard and it's got the, what do you call it? The mobile fence around the yard so they can't get outta the yard, but it's 2 acres. And so they can run for their life. They can run for days. And he'll go out, he'll go flying outta the house. And it's just like, he's just on the hunt. Like he's sitting there, he's like pointing at a, he's pointing at squirrels. I'm like, You're not going to catch the damn squirrel. He's not going to come out of the tree. And then he goes down, he goes down, the geese will come off the lake onto the backyard, and him and the other dog will chase the geese. And it's funny, my big dog, because our other dog is— his mom was a golden retriever and his dad was a Polish sheepdog, so he's basically a big, big hairy lab. Um, and he went down the other day, I watched him, those two ran after all the geese, and they've had their babies. And he rolled over one of the baby geese. Oh, like he, he somehow got behind him and then rolled over one of the geese, and the two mama geese like bowed up on him and like started to attack him. I mean, they were like going after him. Oh yeah, this big 75-pound black dog, these two geese were like bowed up on top of them. I'm like, Jesus Christ, because he was trying to kill one of their babies.

Yeah, here's my little, here's my little teddy bear.

She's a—

oh geez, she's a doll.

But yeah, but those, those two dogs make me laugh every day. They do something really funny.

Yeah, dogs are great. Um, yeah, but between, uh, between dogs and, uh, cats, I think I would take a dog 10 times over a cat.

Personally, but yeah, I don't understand cats. I got a— my best, my best friend has two cats, and I'm like, you know, I never tell him this, but my cats suck. They bite you, they're mean. I mean, they're like, you know, my dog would never bite me, you know what I mean?

Yeah, they don't have much personality. Like, dogs love you when you walk in the door.

Yeah, my dog's like waiting for you to come in the back door. They can hear the car show up, they're sitting at the back door when you get there. I mean, it's just like You know, my dog is funny because he watches who gets up. So my wife gets up and goes in the kitchen, he'll go and jump in her chair. Yeah. So he sits in her chair, and then when she comes back, he'll run out and then he'll go find his sofa. They have the sofa. And then when I go into my office where I'm at now, I'll come out, he'll be sitting in my chair, and I'm like, all right, dude, get out of my chair, you know. But it's really funny, he just like wants to be near mom and dad. You know, and so if they're out of their chair, he sits in their chair. I'm like, okay, whatever.

So if people want to reach out to you when you're not playing pickleball or golf, when's the, what's the best way for somebody to reach out to, to, to learn more about you or to touch base with you, Eric?

I'm a pretty easy phone call away. I'm on my phone all day. So I'm kind of attached to my phone. So Text me, call me is the easiest way to find me.

So we'll have the notes in your— in the show notes in the podcast so people can reach out to you by phone and learn more about what you're doing and learn more about pickleball and your recent handicap. Yep. All right. Well, thanks for being on the show today and good luck with your golf game and your pickle game.

All right, man, thanks.

Yep, thank you.

And that's a wrap. There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by YorCmo, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at yorcmo.com. Yorcmo.com, spelled wrong on purpose.