Results vs Outcomes - The Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode # 003

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be. Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy. Welcome, welcome, welcome. My guest today is the host of the Drop In CEO podcast. She's also on the board of directors for the Women in Flavor and Fragrance Commerce. We'll have to talk about that a little bit. Founder at Illumination Partners. Welcome, Deborah Koviello. Do you go by Deb or Deborah? Would you prefer Deb or Deborah?

Deb would be great. Thank you.

Yes, that's what I've been calling you. So Well, thanks for being on the show today.

Well, I am excited. Thank you for the opportunity. I've so enjoyed getting to know you and your organization, and hopefully I can give back a little bit today to your audience. So thank you again.

Oh yeah, you've been great, and I'm excited to have you and talk a little bit about what it's like being a fractional CEO, fractional COO, and kind of the different roles that you've played in the past and what Why don't we start with one simple kind of thought, which is when you come in as a fractional executive to an existing business and C-suite, what is one opportunity you see that a lot of C-suites are missing out on right now?

Oh, this is a big one. You ready? You know, having been in corporate for so many years, we are celebrated for getting results. And again, stakeholders, shareholders, interested parties, you are judged by that. And so people scurry, hurry, and get results. But I would propose the thing where they're missing out is while they are seeking results, leaders are often in pursuit of peace of mind. And it's two completely different things. You know you want to get the results, but if you continue to be in that hamster wheel and this month you get the result and the next month you don't, have you really achieved peace of mind or are you still up at night? And so I propose to leaders, stop being so results-oriented. You're killing your people. What you need to do is be outcome-oriented. Oriented because there may be months where you don't hit the mark. But if you're in it for the long game and have all the right people in the right roles with the capacity and capability aligned on the same purpose— and a lot of this is about the book— you will ultimately get to peace of mind. And when leaders get that, they know what that feels like. And if you've never felt settled about your role and your ability to lead others, you are missing out on something very critical to your leadership and organizations.

Wow, that was well said. There's a lot, lot to unpack there. Um, the question that came to mind when I was just listening to you say that was, what's the difference between results and outcome? You said that too much focus on results, but they should be focused on outcome. So explain that to me a little bit more.

So an example of this might be a company wants to be number one in quality with their customer. And so people can game the system and get you those results. But so often they're done in silos and at the detriment of other metrics in your organization. So this month you may be great on quality and service, but your inventory or some other area, your pipeline may be off your profitability. It means you took your eyes off of that because you asked people to get a result. And if one organization is focused on customer service, another one on your sales pipeline, people are going to work in silos and not together. But if you pose to your organization something different, which is a greater outcome, we can get these results, but what would it look like to be the favorite of our customer? Which doesn't necessarily mean number one, you may not be the cheapest, you may occasionally have a hiccup or a defect, but it's that deep relationship that maybe you've built with the organization, partnering with them, organizations working cross-functionally towards an outcome of being the favorite. And you ask people, what will it take to be the favorite? Then you completely change the landscape from people saying technically, technically, here's how I get that result, and their heads down and they become transactions. That's what you've reduced your organization to, are simply transactions. When you ask people to come with their minds, what does it mean to be the favorite? People start thinking creatively and cross-functionally and greater opportunities of things you should be working on. And yes, we still have to pay attention to the results, but when we bring people together and say this is what it looks like to be the favorite, your customers are going to align with that because they know that they can trust you, you're loyal to them, and ultimately they're going to be— you're going to be the one they're going to want to partner with. That is an outcome of what you really want in terms of what does it take to be number one. It's very different.

Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's very interesting. So I want to keep going there because I've got some questions that came to mind. The first comment I have is I've also recently realized that the less I am fixated on a specific, and I'll say result, and detaching any emotion to reaching a specific result, the more comfortable I am at moving forward. And when things jiggered, you know, go back and forth a little bit, I'm okay with it. As a visionary, I see a clear future where I want to take the organization and I get very fixated on that picture and I get very emotionally attached to it. And then when something comes into my world, I get a little anxious and upset and maybe lose my peace of mind. But when I detach from the end, the specific result, then I'm open to those, those backs and forth and those changes in direction. And so I've realized that personally, as a leader, that that's helped me. But what you're saying as an organization, having that same approach to not tying yourself to specific results, but more of a a themed outcome, uh, is transformational. And I want to ask the follow-up question, that is, so then how do you set goals?

Oh, you still have goals. I mean, but are you setting the right ones? You still have to set goals. You still have to measure people. You need to be able to provide feedback, but goals might be different. I mean, traditional easy goals are, do we have the right quality, uh, score? Is our service 99-point whatever? Are we having 3 inventory turns? Again, you can hear I'm from the manufacturing world, yeah, you can have those, but I propose that those are often lagging indicators, lagging indicators of validating the health of the organization. Are you moving forward? So for instance, I want to make sure that I have people that are cross-trained in all the different functions. So if I need to put more people out there in the sales arena, I can take some of my customer service people, I can bring some people from operations and go face to face with the customer and build a partnering relationship. That's building capability in your organization. So a leading metric you might want to start focusing on, or how many people are cross-trained in other functions? Are we meeting with our people on a month-to-month basis, having those one-to-ones, not only making sure they're getting the results, but as a primary responsibility, how many people have personal development plans, whether it's elevating themselves within their current technical area, or are we teaching them other functions, getting certifications? So if we needed to move around the resources towards a, a particular area, we could. We should be measuring things like that. In addition to the traditional ones that are easy, and I might say lazy.

Yeah, lazy. So is it, is it more about looking at internal than kind of the external metrics as far as goal setting goes?

I mean, we have to get a little bit more into specifics, but I'm a very human-centric person, so I tie a lot of goals to those activities with humans because humans still run the world. So we can have an ERP system, a system that runs our operations, makes us better, faster, cheaper, but the goals we might want to set is, yeah, the system can get us more transactions on a per-month basis, what have you, but are the humans trained enough to be able to respond to it? Not just how to operate that, but know how to troubleshoot things when things go wrong. Again, I think you just need to look at more things that are around humans and their capability and the ability to pivot quickly as conditions change. That's the thing that leaders don't do, is they don't necessarily have their eye on when conditions change, and they fall victim to, oh, we had a pandemic, oh, we had a supply chain issue. We should be doing more risk and opportunity work to try to mitigate risks before falling victim. And that's where those companies see those highs and those lows. So again, it's more of a mindset of what are you looking at? And what do you— what are the risks and opportunities you're looking at?

Okay, that makes sense.

Yeah.

So tell me a little about yourself. How did you get into this fractional role? And what would you call yourself, a fractional CEO, a fractional COO, fractional integrator, fractional coach? What did— how— what's your title for what you do, or do you have just one? So how did you get to this point?

You're not going to like my answer, and this is thinking on my feet, but I would prefer not to be put into a box. Yeah, people pay for the value of the skills and ability and my agility to be able to solve business problems. Now, if you wanted to put me in a box, my pedigree is quality and operational excellence, and so I can run it, drop into an organization if they need quality leadership or a strategy. I have saved companies millions of dollars because of my operational excellence in cost savings and supply chain issues as well. You can also drop me in as a troubleshooter if we happen to have a recall, get to the root cause so we never have that issue again. Put me in wherever you need to, but this drop-in CEO is about a mindset. It is the mindset of whether I drop in and partner with the COO or the CFO. It's the ability to drop in and look at the landscape, look at what is working, and then based on the collective input of the organization, their talents of what they can do and your expertise, develop a plan that gets them through whatever the transformation is. So I'm a chameleon. If the COO needs help on an additional partner to give them capability, I'm a partner with the COO. If the CEO hires me, I'm their partner. So the drop-in CEO is that fractional leader that helps solve the business problem during that particular transformation. If I can't solve it, Fractional Professionals Association and everybody that I've networked with, I got people I can bring in to solve whatever business problem it is. So I haven't heard anybody say CQO, Chief Quality Officer, or C, or COXO, Operational Excellence Officer. You don't hear that. So I'd rather come in with what's the problem I can solve.

Yeah, I love that.

Thank you.

How did you get in this place?

Um, dropped in a bunch of times. I mean, I might say in my corporate, uh, role in the last 5 to 7 years, when I finally ascended to those vice presidents of operational excellence or quality, I was always dropped into a crisis. The organization was crumbling, not staffed well, not well aligned with the rest of the organization. It was about building the foundation. Getting the resources with the right talent, and then creating the processes and systems for which that's my expertise to get something that's getting the results. And so I was able to do that when I was dropped in as the head of quality. I'd never been a vice president of quality, but I had the skills. And ultimately, through figuring out what was needed, I moved my organization, North America, from being in a number 4 out of 4 regions to number 2 in 18 months. But it was because I did things a little bit differently. I talked in terms of an outcome, not necessarily getting the results, and that's what everybody else was doing. And so I was already doing that in corporate, but then when I was given the opportunity to transition out of corporate, I said, I can do this on my own. So I started my own business in November of 2018 and was fortunate to drop in again to very different situations, but the common thread was a C-suite leader going through some kind of operational transformation. And it could have been a downsizing of a company, loss of a leader, new customer requirements for which they didn't know how to get there, or simply the capacity to be able to fill a role or even build capability that they just weren't equipped to do. So those are the business problems I've solved, and I am attracted— or the ideal client is attracted to me— usually a mid-sized company that recognizes they have those needs but just don't have the capability within.

Yeah.

A better customer, however, is not one that it's in crisis. And I have this crisis scale. You can either be in crisis, meaning you're about to close, chaos, you're firefighting, control, things are okay, but they see into the future, they might need help. And then certainly the organizations that are on a continuous improvement track or have a competitive advantage may not need me. I love the leaders that are not in chaos. But they see if they don't make a change and bring in that expertise, they may be in chaos later on.

Yeah. So as a, as a drop-in CEO, fractional leader, yeah, what do you see the value is to an organization as opposed to hiring somebody full-time to try to solve that process, or looking at an agency or a firm to come in and solve some of those problems? What's the value of the fractional or the drop-in leader as opposed to the more traditional route of hiring for it full-time or finding an agency or firm?

So the advantage is it provides the organization the agility they need to flex to the needs of the organization while focusing on their core competency, whether it's marketing or technology or services. Let them focus on what they're good at. And if they don't— if they do a good evaluation about the work that's needed once the systems are set up, you may not need a full-time person once everybody is trained and the processes are established. You may simply need somebody to check and make course corrections as needed or training. So often we hire people full-time and we never go back and look at the value that they're providing or what the work content looks like. And if they may only have 40% or 60% work, they stretch it out over 100% of their time. And then companies start losing money. So you need to evaluate the value of what they need done initially, and then what does that ongoing business model look like, allowing them to focus 100% of their attention on the core competency. And you could have us on a retainer basis, on a project basis, but it's very intentional and high value. That's the benefit.

Yeah, I, I would agree. That's definitely the benefit. So how does a company go about about setting their criteria to find a successful drop-in leader or executive, fractional executive?

That's an interesting question. Um, a couple things that come to mind is, um, certainly if you don't have the expertise within, uh, obviously you want to look with somebody that has been there, done that, often somebody with large corporate experience. Um, it's a little bit also beyond the experience of the individual. Is this an opportunity to upgrade talent in your organization. So it's not just the technical problem of providing a CFO offering, a chief marketing offering, but does that person also elevate the people in the organization? And that's my brand, because you can drop us in, and you know, if you never build the internal capability, you're always going to need us. And that is not the fractional leadership model. We design ourselves out of the organization. We can continue to advise as needed, but you should be looking for a personal— that person that has high ability in their own personal development and their ability to develop others, because we need to elevate the capability of your organization and maybe build the future CFOs, CMOs, COOs, etc. That's what I think you should be looking for.

So expertise, one thing you should look for, but then a person's ability to develop your internal core competencies and people.

Absolutely.

And not with a, a lasting dependency, but more of let's develop it and transition out over time, or maybe transition into a different area of the business or different phase of the business that you can help with.

And, and that's the beauty of what we do. That's what makes our work so rewarding, because clients come and go. We might forget some of them along the way, but it's the people that we impact. And I dropped into a particular situation while I was chartered to actually develop the quality leader, help them build build a roadmap and execute it, because so often these medium-sized companies simply live in the day-to-day. And I also had an opportunity to develop a junior person, simply teaching them their technical competencies. And oh my, oh my, well, I was chartered to really develop the higher-level leader. They went through the actions of developing a strategy, but each time I would return, there was always an excuse for, uh, I didn't have time, there was this crisis, etc. But then the junior person saw and recognized capability of teach me how to interface with the plant manager. I need to know how to articulate a more significant message so they understand the importance of the role that I am assuring in the organization. And oh my, that person ran with it. They were even to the point where they were frustrated because they were engaging with the senior leader and they were being challenged on their knowledge. I said, that's good, because now you're starting to influence up and have conversations with leaders to influence them. That's the beautiful work we do. We, if if nothing else, we can awaken people to their truest capability far beyond the technical problem that we've solved. We have a unique opportunity to elevate people and change organizations, not just solve a problem.

Yeah. And isn't that what the best leaders are supposed to be able to do is develop the leaders underneath them? So as a fractional leader, you can have that same impact on an organization.

Yes.

Maybe even a greater impact in some cases, because you're you're external to the day-to-day, so you might have a more, um, third-party type coaching relationship and mentoring relationship that a colleague next to that may not, may not have the same.

But it's just a matter of capacity or capability. If a senior leader brings you in for just that, it's not a knock on their capability. But I think I talk about this a bit in my book about corporate courage. Courage. A lot of leaders start feeling uncomfortable, lack of peace of mind, and they know they have to do something but don't even take the time to recognize maybe I need a fractional leader. And then even when they find organizations such as ours, the Fractional Professionals Association, they don't have the courage to pull the trigger because they say, I can do this on my own. The true tragedy is when they're in crisis and they say, oh my, I need somebody now. There's a bit of flurry of activity as we get things stabilized. The true leader that I I love working with is the one that's starting to feel uncomfortable. And if they're smart enough, they may enlist our services sooner before it's a crisis, and maybe we can identify and mitigate risks that they may not even recognize.

Yeah, that's great. One of the challenges of being fractional is it's hard to feel like part of the team. What do you do to, to combat that?

Oh, I wish I could solve that problem, you There's a couple things I see here. So actually, as soon as we're off this call, I have a client— we're done with our project, but I still, if they reach out to me, I'll answer a few questions. They love you when you're working with them. They feel like, oh, you've saved the day, that, you know, they so appreciate you. And then maybe if the project ends, they go dark. Wait, wait, um, we had this great relationship. Why aren't we still talking to each other, kicking around some ideas? It gets very, very lonely in the silence. And I think when we are just results-oriented or transaction-oriented. We have to just put that aside because when they call you and say, hey Deb, can you help me? Which I just got an hour and a half ago, you know that, oh, the relationship is there. It's just like almost a friend that you haven't talked to in a couple years, but when you pick up the phone you feel like you just picked up. Those are the best customers. But in the meantime, as a fractional leader, suck it up. It's going to get lonely in between. You want to be part of it, but that's the trade-off of doing the work we love to do. It's either you can be in a and being part of a team all the time. On the other hand, were those relationships really strong, or are the relationships you build with your fractional clients— those are the ones that you just want to hug them?

Yeah, for sure. And then when you're in an engagement, like in the, in the weeds doing the work, yeah, how do you intentionally create relationships maybe outside the— your core person you're in contact with to the rest of the C-suite team, to others that that might be just tangential to the relationship, but over time might be really important to establish? Because you're not walking down the halls, you're not sitting by the water cooler. How do you, or even do you, reach out and try to make those additional relationships?

It's, it's a very interesting question because there's a fine line between the work that you've been called to do and the evil consultant thing of kicking the boxes and walking around and trying to do business development and get your next gig. They are on And I remember going through the factory, we had a problem we were solving, but then I said, gee, have you thought about this? And have you thought about that? Because you already have a good relationship, you have— it's okay to make those suggestions. And they say, yes, we've thought about that, but that's not in scope right now. I said, okay, okay. So I think it's just still about building relationships. Don't be out to get your next gig because when the time is there and if they know you and say, hey, can Deb do that? You're top of mind. So I think the goal of the outcome is to be top of mind, not necessarily mustering up your next gig.

Yeah, for sure. So I had talked to you earlier about the 7 compass points. And I thought that was an interesting conversation we had. Can you explain that a little bit more?

So 7 compass points, it's actually 8, but true north is peace of mind. And that's ultimately where we're trying to get to is peace of mind. Around that, there are 7 compass points that have come together after so many years of just seeing what is is and is not working. And I'll talk to you about being a STEM professional, Lean Six Sigma black belt, have my toolkit, solve any problem with people, process, and tools. That's how we're trained, and it solves most problems. But as I moved up in the organization, I realized there were more complex issues that needed to be resolved far beyond those tools that were taught. So fast forward, corporate the last 5 years, and in the last couple years in my business, I had all these observations and The compass points, I'll just describe them briefly, really are my approach to going into an organization, assessing the landscape, and identifying 1, 2, or 3 that if you just pull on them just a little bit, it'll start steering the problem or the ship back to true north. So people, process, and platforms, those are 3 that are about not retraining people, not writing procedures, and it's not buying the latest technology, but it is more about how do we develop the people people to be able to interact with their situation, how to get teams the process of interacting with each other, and then giving them the tools to be accountable, to have difficult conversations. There's a lot of human development and leadership development there, not just the old way. And the key thing is that the senior leader of the organization has to be active in that, not just assume the HR wing of your organization is going to take care of that. Purpose is common to many business models. But the performance, uh, compass point's a little bit different. It is not your lagging indicators of service, top-line growth, etc., but it's once you've set your purpose, does every person in the organization have the skills necessary to be able to achieve that purpose? And wherever there's gaps, that's the performance that you have to manage. So again, a human dimension, but the two ahas that I had When I was in a corporate role and we were integrating smaller acquisitions, they were hell-bent on it being a technology solution, getting them on their platform so we could realize the value of the new portfolio. And the end result of not doing it right was we brought the supply chain to our feet, like we couldn't move supply, and the customers were impacted, and they were missing 2 ingredients. Was understanding the past and the culture. Past is one of the compass points. The culture of why was that organization so valuable. We didn't take the time to understand it. And then the pride, and it's the pride of the people. It's the intersection of their humanity and their intellectual property, not their subject matter expertise, but deeply understanding what made them value, what are their successes, what are they known for. Because when we don't pay respect to that, and I talk about this in the book, they will They will not engage with you, especially at points of crisis. But when a leader takes the time to understand the past and the people and their unique gifts, when we finally all come together, whether it's a team or an organization, regardless of the situation, they will have your back. They will trust you. They will perform at a higher level had we skipped those two compass points. And I find big corporations skip those two compass points. And so again, the book that I have, The CEO's Compass, talks about that. But I have found that that formula of using a compass to take already a strong leader and look at what's missing. The book talks about developing the leader and then giving them a how-to manual, how to course correct to get to peace of mind.

You really have wrapped a lot of things into what you do as a drop-in CEO. There's a bit of personal development, leadership development, and there's certainly operations, project management. I mean, there's just a lot you do. It is hard to put you in a box, Deb, that's for sure.

But that's then why the drop-in CEO brand resonates. Now, I'm the founder of my own company. I've had to figure out operations, sales, marketing, and all of that financial stuff. But sometimes people say, I'm a fractional CMO, I'm a fractional CFO. But the point being is we shouldn't put ourselves in a box. We have our technical areas of capability, but we also can see all the other interconnecting parts that may not be working. And that's the work of a CEO. To be able to put all the pieces together and not be the smartest person in the room in all the areas, but we leverage our colleagues in the fractional space and pull on them when we need them. Yes, you can have a CEO that was maybe a chief sales or chief marketing officer, but we know enough about business to pull in the other leadership that's needed. So there's a lot in there. And yeah, yeah, for sure.

Well, let's talk a little about your personal life. What—

tell me some—

what do you like to do outside of being a drop-in CEO?

Well, just before we got on, I'm talking to my husband. I can't find my pumpkin fudge recipe because I love to cook, and cooking is how I build community. And in a few hours from now, I'm actually heading over to our curling club where, yes, I throw 42 pounds of stone on ice. I sweep really hard and scream at people. It is an athletic sport. It is on on the Olympics. Stay tuned for February 2022. You'll get to get your fill of curling. So I love the sport of curling. I'm pretty good at it. I, um, got a silver medal in, uh, 2017 in arena curling nationals, that level of, um, that sport. Um, so I love the sport, love cooking. That's awesome.

You know, today—

I'll stop there. No, that's great.

Let's, let's talk curling because I'm a curler, and today is the first night of the curling trials, the Olympic curling trials in Omaha, Nebraska. We're hosting it here, so we have all of the, the best curling teams in the country are curling in Omaha, Nebraska this weekend.

So fun fact, and I'm so excited for you. I know people that are going there to be umpires at that. We actually do have umpires and judges, but I also know I know a couple people personally that are vying for those Olympic sports. There is a gentleman by the name of Thomas Howell. He is on Team Dropkin. They are going head-to-head against Team Schuster that won the gold in the previous Olympics. And then Allison Howell, also on, I believe it's Team Bear on the women's side, vying for their position to be in the Olympics. We, their mother and father, Rachel and Bob Howell got my husband and I into curling over 12, 13 years ago at a small curling club in South Plainfield, New Jersey. It was rough, but we stuck it out because it was just a wonderful sport. And because of that chance meeting, we curl, and now we know two people vying for Olympic spots.

Isn't that cool? I would consider myself a drop-in curler. I love the sport. I just started picking it up a few years ago. Uh, some buddies of our— of mine, uh, we show up and curl. We've not been professionally trained or coached, but we're keeping our record of losing intact. But we have a lot of fun. It is such a unique sport. I think we are fortunate to have played it. A lot of people have seen it on TV and like, oh, that's— it's kind of mesmerizing to watch it when it comes on during Olympic season. But when you actually play it and realize how unique it is and how hard it is to throw that stone on the ice and sweep and, and the strategy behind how it all works, it's a fun sport. It's a lot of fun.

So what position do you like to play?

Well, so I am the, the best of the worst, uh, so that means I get to be the skip.

Okay. Yes, yes. And for those who are listening, skip is usually— is the captain of the the team. We have to play the strategy, work with the ice conditions, work with the skills of the people, and some of it's just hope and a prayer that the stone lands where you want it to.

Yeah, there's a lot of strategy involved, but then when your team can't execute, it's a lot more luck. It sounds kind of like business, right? You know, the best strategy, but if you can't execute, who knows where that stone's going to end up.

You know, there are so many leadership lessons in curling, and in fact, it's so blended with business. On my website, on the front page, I actually had a professional video done where part of it was in my Curling Club, and I talked about how we bring together people's skills and then the conditions and then knowing what the outcome was and then playing the strategy. And then it cuts over to how I perform in business, and you see me in a business environment. So again, it's the Drop-In CEO. You're dealt the hand, you're dealt the cards of who are the players, the conditions, etc., and then you leverage and do the best of what you have. I remember I was still a kind of a junior curler, and I had 2 people that were less experienced. And I remember asking them to make hard shots, and they were missing the hard shots. And then my vice skip came up to me mid-tournament and said, Deb, he said, you're not playing to their strength. Have them make these shots, and then we as the more senior people will pick up the legwork. And as soon as I started changing the game, listening to a person mentoring me, and I changed the game, we eventually got to the semifinals. So it is so much about business, listening to the people, playing to their strengths to get the outcome you want.

Yeah, I love that. It is, it is important. I didn't recognize it, but I certainly look at who's throwing and determine what I'm going to ask them to do.

Yeah.

Um, because so many times you want them to do some amazing thing that like I can't even do it, but you, as a skipper, oh, this is the shot we should 'But the reality is nobody in my team could make that shot.' So understanding that and just being a little more, uh, aware of people's limitations, then you can adjust the strategy a little bit. And, um, that's probably better than trying to make everybody hit a home run shot every single time.

But if I could react to that, you'd never know, because I can tell you I was in another tournament. I'd only been curling for 2 or 3 years, my husband 1 year, and we just wound up being matched up The total years on our team was about 10, and we were matched up with a team that probably had about 50 years of curling experience. And I remember I was holding the broom for my husband. There were a lot of stones in the house. My hands were crossed behind me. My back was to the warm room, all the people looking at me, and my husband made a shot that popped out their stone, and we wound up sitting 6 and beating the team. Team. So you just never know how the game can change. So don't short-sell people on your team. Ask them to do something hard. They might actually succeed, and then you wind up with a win.

Yeah, I think there's so much— I love the parallels between curling and business. That would be— I'm going to check out your videos if it gives me any ideas, but that could be a fun blog or lesson to teach people.

I've written a couple articles on life lessons and curling.

That's perfect. That's perfect. Okay, besides curling, what else do you like? You got curling, we've got fudge.

I love to cook. I mean, you look at my husband, he's gained 50, 60 pounds since we've been married. Love to cook. I have also been, you know, I've done volunteer work over the years. I was a Cub Scout leader, Girl Scout leader, committee chair. I always seem to rise to that board or committee chair position. But right now, a couple organizations I really, really love, and I also do mentoring, is the Women in Flavor and Fragrance Commerce. It's a niche organization for which I'm on the board, so I will plan events to help network and educate, but also I mentor the next emerging leaders within that organization. I'm also on the board of the American Society for Quality for my Cincinnati chapter. I organize programs programs, lunch and learns. I also mentor people there. There's always a develop— a point of serving the orator organization but also mentoring others because the big story is I didn't have a mentor up and coming. I had to figure things out myself, but had I had a mentor, who knows where I would have been. So that's one of the things I absolutely love, and I will tell you some of the stories in my book, The CEO's Compass, come from those opportunities to develop others and just see the light turn on. So that's a little bit more about what I'm made out of. And love to walk. And my sidekick Reagan is in the room right now, my dog, a breed between Schnauzer and Terrier. Hopefully the postman doesn't come by and start doing a cameo appearance.

Exactly. Well, that's really, really about my kids.

You want to hear about my kids too?

Oh, everybody likes to talk about kids. Absolutely.

Real quick. So I used to think that my legacy was in my kids and what they're going to do, not necessarily what I I do since change that, but I do have one child. He is in Switzerland, married, uh, joined, uh, Deloitte, and his wife is doing a postdoc. And then my middle son is in Germany. He, after school, uh, went back in the military. So he is in Ansbach, Germany. So I had the good fortune of back in August when COVID started settling down to visit both of my children in the country and see the countryside. So kudos to my children that recognize the value of international travel while they're still young and not being tied down.

How did you end up with two children overseas? Do you guys have connections to that part of the world? Or happenstance?

It's just happenstance. You know, my, my son and his wife had already been to Ecuador and a couple other countries because of her PhD work. So being young and adventurous and being very worldly, because my son also did some traveling while he was in college, he was part of several organizations where we were promoting the voice of youth in economic and environmental studies. So my eldest son even went to Taiwan as part of a tour of college students and spoke at, uh, in front of a group of 100,000 people, uh, about, you know, the voice of youth in society to create the future versus letting the next generation create that. So we've always been an advocate of them, uh, touring. Um, my boys also, one of them went to Ireland for a work study. And when one of them says, oh, I'd love to go see my brother, my husband and and I looked at each other and we wound up sending him over for a week so he could experience Ireland with his brother. So it's— we don't have connections, but my husband and I have been around the world and we see the value of understanding. And my daughter, now in architecture, next summer will have the opportunity to go overseas. So we're already talking about the different countries that she can visit as well. It really, really helps your perspective. Again, we're part of a global organization, but it helps. It's very helpful in business to understand the different cultures that come together and how do we to pay respect to those different cultures in order to get a certain result. So it's very— it's valuable part of their education.

Yeah, I think post-pandemic, the idea of a global workforce is even more norm than ever before. We personally at URCMO, we have 6 full-time employees that are in between Mexico and the Philippines and Canada. And we think the global workforce is just a great way to to find interesting and diverse talent. Do you see any much of that going on in your experience with your client work? Are they— you've seen some globalization of the workforce at all?

Not so much in the client work. I've been working very locally. They're just very focused on the talent within the region, not so much. But I might— personally, I have done work in the U.S., in Europe, and also I've got a client in Singapore. They see the value of reaching out to people in other countries. But so far, my client work has been mainly focused on the talent within the local region.

Yeah, we see clients outside of the US wanting— it's a great way to access expertise in the US from finding fractional leaders. So we've got people in Australia and Europe that are trying to sell into the US, and they want a US-based CMO to help them do that. That makes a ton of sense for lots of different reasons. And I sure— I'm sure anybody that needed to establish operational issues or manufacturing in the US would see value in having some fractional leaders that can help them pave the way in a foreign country. Just like if I wanted to start selling my services in Asia or Europe, I'd want to hire a local fractional leader to help me do it.

Well, and I agree with that because then there's that access. But I will tell you, as part of my business development and brand development, because I spend a lot of time building the brand, is I use LinkedIn heavily to put out my thought leadership and explain the problems that I solve. And as a result of that, from podcasting— because not only do I have my own podcast, but I've been sought out to be a podcast guest on their shows. I have— I'm recording next week one in Malaysia. I've done one in Singapore. They, I have been told, are thirsty for knowledge and expertise. And I've, I've seen and talked to a few people that wound up going overseas that they respect our expertise, and if they don't have it in their country, they are— have the courage to reach out. So there are untapped markets for the fractional leaders out there to potentially put your brand out there. There may be opportunities outside the local domestic area.

Yeah, for sure. What do you see as the future of fractional work?

I wish— well, I wish more senior leaders in the medium and large organizations would just see that as an extension of the work that they're doing. I hope and wish and believe, based on the demographics and the economy, the future of fractional work is going to be significantly higher. But what I do see is we have to develop the capability and expertise of that fractional professional to know and understand what it's like to do business development and be able to create a business and sales and marketing. We don't necessarily have those skills. And so I'm even— I've been on a journey. What is sales? What is marketing for me that I take from the gurus? What is putting together a budget, setting a vision, setting a long-term strategy? That's what the fractionals need to do right now. Yes, we're lucky if we're able to bolt onto a fractional organization, but just know this is going to become our reality as we get downsized out. People don't want to go back to the corporate life. Not only will— should we practice our skill and help businesses, we need to develop the skills of being an entrepreneur and knowing what it's like to build a business ourselves. You can't just do your technical work, but I see it as a growing area by virtue of all of these organizations popping up. I've been courted by a few, and really it is a smart model because, again, as I said in the beginning, businesses need to focus on their core competency. If they're large enough and can have full-time resources, kudos, but they may not be necessarily leveraging the best way. So I definitely see businesses think about fractional work as a positive change in their business model?

Yeah, I look at the fractional world. It's still in its infancy. There's a lot of unknowns about what it's going to become. There's also a lot of confusion, I think, in the mind of the business owner. What exactly is fractional? What isn't? Is it part-time? Is it interim? Is it a flat monthly fee? Is it just a consultant that calls themselves fractional? Is it an extension of an agency that has one person out there that's doing biz dev calling themselves fractional? Fractional, it's kind of the Wild West. So what advice would you give a business owner to find, to find a true fractional professional that they can trust that's in it for the same reasons you and I are in it, to, to help a company build the right strategy, execute on that strategy, and then exit out after developing the people and the core competencies? How would they go about finding the right person?

Well, certainly I noticed a lot of the C-suite leaders are not doing as much networking as they should. I definitely think they should be part of some C-suite board of advisors or professional networking groups, because if they're having an issue, somebody else in their network has probably had the same one. They should be looking for warm referrals, and I just think that they need to do more networking, uh, at this point, um, because it's kind of lonely. They know their business, but they don't know what's outside. So get associated with something like the Fractional Professionals Association. There's also the GigX organization organization where there's a whole database of fractional professionals in there that you can pull from. There's quite a few out there. Just start finding those organizations, and I would say just start building a relationship. Don't worry about the transaction or the sale. Just start learning and finding out those people that gel with your particular organization. If you don't need them now, you may need them later, so make it part of your risk and opportunity planning of what kinds of talent am I going to need in the future and where can I I find them.

Yeah, I think that's great. And how do you separate yourself from others that do what you do or say they do what you do?

Because I'm the Drop-In CEO.

There you go.

I created my brand because, well, quite honestly, when I entered this space of being my own business owner, it was terrible. I had a lot of doubt, like, oh my, how am I going to compete with, I don't know, the Price Waterhouse, the Accentures, all of these business consulting firms? And then I had to deal with consulting marketing gets a bad rap. And then I, I just— there was no way of me ever catching up. But instead, the brand is to differentiate myself and what makes myself different. Out of the mouths of babes during the middle of a podcast interview, somebody says, what do you do? And I said, well, I'm kind of like a drop-in CEO. Drop in, assess the landscape, do X, Y, and Z. And it was all because I remember being in an IPO startup company where we were flying floundering, and the venture capitalist dropped in a CEO. He rolled up our sleeves, showed us how to manage operations on an Excel spreadsheet, built our capability, and got us out of trouble. And eventually we went IPO. It was because of that leader from the venture capital private equity world dropped in and did the work that was needed now, knowing that they're going to need different leadership in the future. That's what came out of my mouth, and he said, "That's brilliant." And I said, "What?" And I said, "The drop-in CEO." And it took me about 5 months to realize that's the differentiator. It's dropping into the situation and solving the problem for what they need. Then that's the noble work. So I don't compare myself to consultants or business advisors. I'm a trusted authority that helps people through operational transformation as the drop-in CEO.

Yeah, that's terrific. I work with a lot of, um, and talk to a lot of fractional professionals or people that work for me, other fractional CMOs, and also members of our Fractional Professionals Association that we both belong to. And then prospects and people looking to join our organization. And the number one issue that they all have is marketing and lead generation. Because right now, the business owner isn't really aware of exactly what the value is of a fractional leader is. The ones that have them see value. And the ones that are looking are starting to realize that there's— they're out there. But it's very— it's not commonplace to understand that you can go find a fraction— a drop-in CEO, a fractional CMO, a fractional CTO. Probably the fractional CFO has been around the longest, so people kind of heard that term. But the rest of the C-suite, it's pretty new.

So what we do have control over— you talk about sales and marketing. Marketing, we have complete control over. Sales, we may not. It's about that relationship and when the customer when the consumer is ready. But what we are doing right now and what all individual fractional leaders need to know is start marketing yourselves. And it's not a sales pitch, but put out that content, that information, because I'll tell you that now, 3 months into heavy marketing of my brand, when people come to meet me, they say, well, I already know you. I've been watching your content. I've been reading your blog. Make an investment now in marketing about what it is, the role that you fill, and then your unique value. Value. It makes the business development cycle a little bit shorter once you get those warm introductions, and then they have all that content to validate, oh, I get you. Now let's start talking about the business opportunity. It feeds the other, and that's an opportunity for some of the fractional people. But I love the work we're doing right now putting this content out there as well.

Yeah. So what is the marketing that you've been doing that you attribute your recent success to?

The best one is the Drop-In CEO podcast because I've been able to now interview over 170 leaders, authors, other podcasters, senior leaders and organizations to build up my network and build that trust and relationship to be top of mind. That's been the biggest investment. However, there are playgrounds. LinkedIn is my spot. You will see me not only on there 6 days a week multiple times, and it is not only elevating my brand, I elevate other people as as well, is that give back. And also putting out my thought leadership, and that's also been a great playground to hone my talking points, um, and, and get the word out there. And even as late as this week, somebody looked at me and says, if you tweak this a little bit more, it will even further resonate with potential clients. So just start doing something. Push the button on that iPhone, take a video of what you're thinking, put it out there. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's something you can control, and it will help with business development.

Are you doing more video than written content or more written? How are you mixing it up?

I do it all. So you will see short-form posts, you know, 6, 7 times a week. You'll see twice a week audiograms from my podcast. I do a long-form post article that goes on LinkedIn as well as my website and newsletter. I am doing a LinkedIn Live once a week. I bring somebody on and we just jump on and talk about something in line with our brands. Um, but I've been told also, Deb, push the button a little bit more on just, hey, I had this thought. I did that a lot in the beginning, 6 days a week, put out a 1, 1.5 minute digestible video. I'm actually going to start swinging back and doing a little bit more of that. So, uh, don't play the algorithm, just put out something that gets the thought— your thoughts out there and get— forget to get people to know you.

Yeah, don't overthink it, just do something.

Just do it.

Yeah, well, that's a— that's great, and I, I applaud you because it's really hard hard for people to go out and just start marketing, especially marketers. We— you would think that we as CMOs are really good marketing ourselves. And that is not the case. I can't tell you how many fractional CMOs I talked to that have a hard time marketing themselves, defining and determining what their brand is going to be and how they're different, different from other competitors. And And it's hard. I think it's because we get in our head and we think too much and we worry about what someone's going to think about it. And the key has got to be to go out there and just start talking about what you're passionate about, what your interests are, how— and try to help people. And that will come across authentic. And the right people that want that help will be naturally attracted to you.

And also understanding what differentiates you and don't— like you just said something all in your own own head. I will tell you just something that I do as virtue of me being an active listener. In doing problem solving and root cause analysis, I have learned to listen to what people are saying. And somehow, if you engage in a conversation with just an impartial person, we will hear and see things about your unique brand that you just think, aw shucks, that's just what I do. But then we'll say, oh my, what you just said— no, back up a sentence. You you just said this sometimes could be the key to saying, okay, I'm a CMO that does this. And so I suggest to any of your CMOs out there, just get a trusted partner, talk through what it is that you do. You may actually find a unique branding message that you can add to how you market yourself.

Yeah, that's great. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Deb. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience? Or I know we talked about if someone wanted to get to get ahold of you, the best way is on LinkedIn, right? That's your preferred place to connect.

But the best place for the resource, my single call to action, dropinCEO.com. That is my website. You go to dropinCEO, D-R-O-P-I-N-C-E-O.com, one-stop shop for learning more about the book, my blog posts, my services, and the Drop-In CEO podcast. Would love to hear people, and you can contact me. Let's just start a conversation. I love just getting to know you and building relationships.

Well, this has been great. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, and we'll be talking soon.

All right, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thanks, Deb. And that's a wrap. There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at yourcmo.com. Your CMO dot com. Spelled wrong on purpose.