Working Hand in Glove - Aditi Karandikar - Fractional C-Suite Retreat - Episode # 052

Growing a business is hard, but it does not have to be.

Once a week, we take a break from the hustle and bustle in business to talk about innovations and what's new in the C-suite. This is the Fractional C-Suite Retreat, and I'm Joseph Frost. Pull up a seat at the fire, grab a drink, smoke a cigar, and just join me as we relax, learn, and get inspired. This retreat is sponsored by Your CMO, helping organizations grow with better marketing strategy.

Welcome. I'm excited to have our guest today join us. She is a data-driven performance marketing executive with over a decade of experience in demand generation. She's grown and mentored lean marketing teams from scratch. She was named one of the 10 Most Inspiring Women Leaders in 2021 by IERA Women Leaders Magazine. And she is a CMO at Your CMO. She's one of our own fractional CMOs, and that is most endearing to me. I welcome you to meet Aditi Karandikar. Aditi, nice to have you.

Thanks, Joe, and glad to be here.

Yes, and today is not the day people will listen to this, but today is National Women's Day. So happy National Women's Day.

Thank you. I really enjoy that aspect of the fact that we are recording today because it's really close to my heart.

Yeah, it's terrific. And we have a lot of great women on our team at URCMO, and you are one of them. So I'm excited to explore you and your thoughts further here. But before we jump into a general discussion, I like to open each of our podcasts with a simple question, and it's an opportunity for you to share with something that you think is interesting or a problem or an opportunity that you see that you believe other fractional chief marketing officers or fractional chief professionals in general, or other C-suite members should be aware of or be thinking about?

Sure, I think the evolution of the C-suite, especially from the marketing perspective, has been that back in the day, marketing was seen as a cost center, you know, or the brochure generator, however you wanna look at it. I think that has flipped to be, we are now considered the revenue creators in the company. We have a seat at the revenue table. We are taken seriously by the C-suite in terms of what we bring to the pipeline for sales to close, whether it's marketing influenced or marketing sourced directly. And in a lot of the go-to-market motions, whether it's partner first or direct, to market, there is a recognition that marketing has to be a key element that we plan for, not just, you know, the product, but also how we go to market and what the impact would be in the market. So I think that is very gratifying as a marketer. And having been in the core area of demand generation and marketing ops, I feel that I have lived in the world between marketing and sales and very tangibly measured on results, which I like because I'm— it's not about anecdotally, oh, marketing didn't do its job, or, you know, it's very, very, very tangibly measured in today's era of digital marketing. And we can show the value of marketing very attributably to the efforts that the team has put in. So I really like that iteration of marketing we have today. Having said that, that puts pressure on marketing, right? We cannot be considered a fluffy team. We have to have all this, you know, results and goals that we have to work for, kind of similar to what the quota-driven world of sales looks like. You know, you carry a target, you have to have the back calculation of the sales goal and what you need to carry. So you're measured by the achievements that you have made every quarter. And in a way, it's a double-edged sword, because if you make your goals, they give you harder goals next time. So that's been my world, you know, doomed if you do, doomed if you don't. But I love it. I love the excitement of making the goals, you know, hitting targets, and, you know, feeling very much a part of the team that has driven the company to scale. So that is something I enjoy.

Um, there's a lot there that I want to get into, but first, could you explain to me what your definition of demand gen is?

Yeah, I mean, it is not really one thing. It's about how do you make sure that the campaigns that you structure are resonating in terms of content messaging, and then the persona that you're targeting for them. How do you reach them where they are? Which are the watering holes that they exist in that you want to be also present? Because in the buyer journey, you want to intersect them where they are at the right time. And whether the right time is when they are beginning to feel the pain point Or they have already realized what the solution is and is looking at a couple of vendors, and you want to hijack that narrative by putting your brand and your solution in front of them. Or it is when they're almost ready to buy but are hesitant. How do you incentivize them to get off the fence and actually take a decision? So I think demand generation in my mind is a end-to-end, you know, strategy and tactics which lead the purchase funnel to sales to close. Sometimes it is to go with sales into the market. Sometimes you bring to sales what they didn't even realize is out there. So I think, you know, how you do it is, yeah, it's integrated across multiple channels, whether you're doing search— and when I say search, I include organic SEO, paid search, account-based marketing. You You have content syndication, you have email marketing and optimizing your database segmentation to go out to people. You have the cross-sell, upsell campaigns and retention campaigns for your existing clientele. You have your net new logo client campaigns, opportunistic campaigns. Let's say it's COVID and you find an opportunity, or it's seasonal campaigns, always-on campaigns. You have the whole ecosystem of events and webinars, and they have evolved with COVID so much. So there are so many ways that we want to kind of reach our audience, but at the end of the day is getting to disseminate the knowledge about the product and solution in the time of need to the right people.

And I think that's, uh, that's a great description of strong marketing effort in general. And where I get hung up, and it's maybe it's semantics, forgive me if we're going down a rabbit hole here. But what is not demand gen that you would consider marketing? Because you laid out a lot of marketing tactical strategies and campaigns. And that's what many people consider marketing. And you labeled it as demand gen. And I know there's a differentiator in your mind. I'm just curious, what— how would you describe what is not demand gen that is also—

yeah, most of the companies I have worked with, and it's different in every company how they define it, for example, web, uh, you know, the website, etc., sometimes is owned by digital teams. There are companies where definitely they delineate marketing into marcom, you know, it's corporate communications, AR, PR, analyst relations, those kind of elements. There is product marketing and there is demand generation. But I feel like these are not laid out in, you know, stone because product marketing and demand generation, for example, go hand in glove. Demand generation, when it's doing SEO, is causing branding. It's reaching wider than ARPR sometimes does. It is only after you have created brand and product knowledge that it can trickle down into lead generation, you know. So I almost feel like the elements which are overlapping in these definitions, then we don't kind of speak of the— what is the non-sexy part of marketing is marketing operations, which is under the hood, which makes the machine hum. This is where the execution happens and how that ties back into your reporting and analysis. You know, so all that tech stack which enables modern marketing is really the tip of the iceberg is what we are addressing here. But it's really something that I have— I'm a bit of a nerd and I love the tech stack and, you know, getting into the weeds of Marketo and Salesforce and, you know, the chatbots which are now AI chatbots, which I feel like a lot of the innovations in technology, find application marketing. And almost the CMO is the one that the CIO is serving in modern companies because they are the ones who are making the decisions about the tech stack on how to be, you know, whether it's predictive analytics, whether it's account-based marketing, uh, all those real-time elements that are happening in the cutting edge of modern marketing is you know, happening, which is so exciting. Even the conversational AI and all these elements are coming together in how you bring them together in demand gen and also in broader terms, marketing.

Okay, well, that was a, that was a good clarification, and it is subjective, probably different definitions for each company. I hear the term thrown around a lot Oh, we need demand gen. Well, I mean, everybody probably at some descriptor needs demand gen versus fuzzy marketing and branding, but they do go hand in hand and it's a holistic effort generally. And it also needs to be, as you mentioned, aligned with sales, whether it's directly integrated or loosely integrated. You can't have one without the other and really be able to showcase success. So, um, are there certain industries today that you think are benefiting more from the modern marketing than others?

Yes, I think some industries are definitely by the nature of them, like high-tech industries or fintech or regtech, compliance tech. All these are— even health tech or biotech to an extent are gravitating more towards, uh, these, I wouldn't call them shiny new objects, but they're early adopters. You know, what I feel though is the traditional industries, even though they have a lot of fears about HIPAA or fraud or compliance and regulation needs, they do need to, and they realize the need to enter the modern world of marketing. And in fact, when I I see fractional CMO being recruited, or any CMO, people tend to gravitate towards people with experience in their domain or vertical. But it might sometimes help to have somebody who has a background in something which is in an adjacent, you know, industry, which brings a new perspective. Because let's say it's enterprise sales motion. Now that's common whether you're doing it in one vertical versus other. So somebody who's steeped in the B2B tech motion to enterprises or even SMBs or mid enterprises can bring some of that knowledge is portable to some of the more traditional industries. And that actually opens up the way things have been done in the legacy of these companies to maybe try something new if they've already exhausted and reached a plateau of growth.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of, a lot of the modern market that can be measured is mostly digital, right? You still struggle with traditional marketing being attributable easily to certain outcomes. There's ways to do it.

Well, I would caveat that. No, in no company have I been that knows end-to-end what the marketing is attributable to. Even if they're very sophisticated, there are always these gaps. I mean, did you see my ad first and then later remember the brand name and come back by typing www, the domain? So then are you attributable to paid search or direct or to SEO? Maybe used Google navigationally to find the right spelling of the website. I'm just giving you, even within digital, there are all these gray areas of first touch, last touch attribution, multi-touch attribution. There are all these models out there. But I will tell you that sometimes, you know, you tend to go and follow the data too much. And sometimes it's also a gut check that needs to happen because you may end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You might say, oh, I'm not seeing any direct contribution from Google AdWords, let me cut it because I'm not seeing anything directly correlated. And you do that and you find this halo effect of things going down overall, and you're scratching your head. And it's actually because that created this ripple effect which you were not tying back to Google AdWords, but it was definitely creating some traffic and volume that now you have cut. So I think I, I would take that with a grain of salt to say that all digital marketing is perfectly mapping to what we can attribute.

Yeah, no, that's a good point. And so then how do you, how do you advise a company on what the right mix is if you don't really know?

I think each company is different. I, while I've worked in various domains and verticals and different size companies, I always come into a new company or a new client with this attitude of let me first learn and test and iterate. So something may have worked well in my past with one particular ecosystem which may not work. So let's go small, test out some of the ideas that have worked previously. Let's see if it resonates with this audience and this ecosystem and then scale it, right? Whether you're scaling it to other product lines or other countries that the company wants to enter, or, you know, other use cases or audiences. So definitely, you know, you have all these arrows in your quiver, but the channel mix that you want to gravitate towards, in my mind, is a mix of guaranteed versus high quality but non-guaranteed. So let me give an example. You go to an event, or you do a webinar with a thought leader, you're guaranteed, let's say, 100 leads. Coming back from that. Whereas you do paid search, is there a guarantee? No, that you will get that many leads. But you need to have that mix because paid search or SEO-driven, and SEO has a long-term impact rather than the pay-to-play model. You will see that you need to have a mix which is best suited by testing each channel and then scaling those channels in the mix.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a lot of art and science in the marketing space these days. There's more science than there used to be, which is nice, but it's still not, as you said, it's not crystal clear. A lot of A/B testing, a lot of intuition, a lot of data insight polling. Now, how do you, how do you work with companies that may not have a baseline of success. So now you have to— you're just starting completely from scratch. Are you pulling what's worked for other people and introducing it and then seeing if it works? Is that the best way to work?

No, I would start with what does the company want to do. Do they want to create brand awareness? Do they want to go to market because they're coming out of stealth? Are they in the stage where they have reached a certain amount of success and they want to You know, just look at the company goals. What does the leadership or the C-suite define as their goals? And then get into how do we reach those goals. If there is a certain type of audience that works best going to events rather than digital, or is it that you want to be in certain, you know, content syndication plays? It's all about, you know, understanding if there has been previous success or benchmarks, then it's easy to do that. But if you're starting net new, you have to take some educated guesses and see where that goes.

Yeah, that makes, makes good sense. So I think you said you were kind of a nerd when you talked about martech and the different types of technology out there. What are some of your favorites and least favorite technologies in the marketing space today?

You know, I like the mix of predictive analytics and ABM. So let's say sales comes to you and says, I have a wishlist of these 1,000 accounts that I want to get into. They have identified it because of demographic, firmographic, you know, technographic reasons. They want to displace a competitor, they want to go in and create awareness of us. So when you work in alignment with sales, you take that 1,000 You know, but marketing's value add is that you are going to look at these 1,000 logos and see through predictive analytics who's even in market. Maybe if you're laser focused on, and you know, only on those 1,000, you might miss out, you know, lookalikes who of our customers who are actually in play but are not on sales's radar or that list. So you want to uncover those and bring to sales and say, these are exactly lookalikes of who we have won in the past. They are not on your list, but they are showing purchase signals. So let's also go after them. At the same time, if you are seeing, you know, certain of these lists have people, have companies that will buy, but they're not likely to buy for 2 years because they just replaced their storage system. Or they just went to the cloud. So yes, they are our target audience. We need to maintain our brand awareness with them. But let's not do the high-profile TLC for impact of this quarter or the next. Because depending on the length of your sales cycle, you want to work with sales to help them reach those goals in the near term while keeping an eye on who we are going to nurture for the long term.

Yeah. What, uh, what technology do you like to use to help do that work? Is there specific vendors that you like? Are there tools that you've come across, any of your favorites?

My favorites— one thing I love is to remove the anonymity of who's on the website in real time. So I love the Drift chatbots. There are other technologies out there I've used who can tell you who's in real time on the website. And we would see some really good clients as well as net new logo prospects on certain pages of the website. So in my previous company, we dedicated resources to chat with them, whether proactively or reactively. So let's say we see somebody who's on the wishlist and they have been brought through various techniques, whether it was paid search, SEO, email marketing, or LinkedIn. We have brought them and they're on the page, we want to probably direct them to content which is more aligned to their industry. So let's say they're sitting on a generic page, but we have a case study in the healthcare space, which would make more sense for this particular company. We want to make sure that we personalize the content on the website. And then we also want, once they leave, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack as to these big companies who might have visited us. Yeah, you don't want to lose them and then try to go on LinkedIn and then reach out via sales or inside sales. So I have led inside sales teams in two companies, and their, uh, you know, charter— part of the charter was to grab people in real time while they are on the website.

And, uh, I'm wondering, with the advancements in AI, is Is it even possible yet to do that with AI or you need that human behind the scenes in real time grabbing that opportunity?

So it's already, well, Drift works on the, it's like when it started, and I don't want to misquote here depending on what they are doing right now, as a decision tree. So they would self-qualify and then we would decide this is a good person to flip to a human and take up the human's time. So it's the productivity aspect of the inside sales team. As well because you don't want to waste their time. So you need the bot-to-human flip happening when you realize that this is somebody we want a human to take over. And that happens through the decision tree, the AI, through the routing logic in the backend for that.

I'm curious, With the advancements in AI and all the chatter about ChatGPT, which is nauseating to me, I am enjoying kind of watching it, but I'm waiting for it to all filter out. But I'm curious, more specifically with Microsoft Bing as a search engine, do you see Bing getting a boost from all of this activity that's sustainable or just a blip?

So yeah, Google has 90% dominance, right, in the search SERPs. But Bing may, you know, at least get this momentary blip, but I don't know how much they will capitalize on that. But I'll tell you on ChatGPT or any generative AI, my excitement is that content has been always the bottleneck. Let's say for campaigns, you need versions of content across the buying funnel. At the top of the funnel, you wanna create awareness of a solution for a pain point. At the middle of the funnel, You want to explain why your product, as opposed to the competition, you know, is the best. And at the bottom of the funnel, you want to incentivize them with an offer that they won't be able to say no to. So, but, and, but imagine all this with permutation of combination of multiple personas, multiple industries you're selling into. So with ChatGPT, I was just testing you know, SEO-rich content for certain keywords. For a nonprofit I help out, I volunteer for women's, and today's, you know, very, um, it's, it's a nonprofit I work for, Lead in Heels. So I was trying to find content, and you know, they don't, they can't afford content writers. So I think for especially those kind of industries, when ChatGPT can create this content-rich with data points and research done in minutes, bringing me all the, you know, I was, I gave it an exercise of write a content rich in SEO keywords of women's empowerment, financial education for women, etc. And it generated something which of course I needed to tweak a bit, but you know, it had all the data points that I would have had to research, you know. So I think market research, content writing, all this might be replaced to an extent.

Yeah. And how does that play out? As, as you, as you can imagine, I've heard the analogy when you make a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, it eventually you can't see the original photo. Do you see that being what's going to potentially happen to content if it's just getting regurgitated and reiterated and regurgitated without anything new. Will it be effective at all?

Yeah, so it's very interesting to me that Google doesn't like duplicate content. It likes original content in their algorithm for SEO. So I wonder how they will look at content which is, which is generated by AI and which probably pulls together content from various sources to create this original content, if you will. But at the same time, you know, as marketers, we need to adopt what we cannot change. You know, the future is coming, and I tell this to some of these companies that are not embracing some things that are inevitable, that we need to jump on the bandwagon and find out how to best leverage it. So I, I would be interested to see how Google ranks content written by chatbots.

Yeah, I think that's going to be the big, um, the big, uh, aha in this whole movement. Because, and I don't know if the average person knows this, but all of us marketers know that Google has a search engine, and its primary goal is to get people content that they want. And, and they measure that by spending more time on the site. And so as readers, as we're Googling, we've come across good content, we stay and we read or we watch or listen, that page gets ranked higher. If ChatGPT is effectively able to do that, and takes your content and makes it more engaging, and people stay longer, it'll work. Um, but I also know that Google has its own ability to determine where that content was sourced, and if they make it to an algorithm change, it says we will not showcase any AI content.

I don't know what they'll do, but my personal opinion is if the content is resonating with whoever the reader is, is very relevant to their search term, why not? You know, does it matter where it originated?

Yeah, um, I mean, that is the question, right? Why not? I wonder at the end of the day if the user fatigue starts to factor in.

Yes, but the positives of it is it democratizes, uh, from companies, right, who cannot afford expensive agencies who will work on this many dollars per word or whatever. Smaller companies, nonprofits, they can definitely, you know, leverage this. And I think it's beneficial in terms of how this can be used.

Yeah, I think it's fascinating. It's definitely an evolution in our world as marketers. And it's fun to watch the hysteria that's going on in the conversations. I'm in several chat groups, and the sheer number of AI-related things that are popping up and things you can do, and it's mind-blowing. It's going to be amazing what comes out of all this. I'm just along for the ride right now, trying to see what—

I think what will come out of all this is for our next generation, is they'll get the universal basic income.

Yeah.

If that's a good outcome, I'll take it. That sounds terrific. So the other thing I heard is that the AI is going to still— for it to really function long term, it will need injections of fresh original content into the ecosystem to kind of avoid this sameness factor that iteration of the same content. So I think there's gonna be some opportunities there to figure out how you can be that injection leader, thought leader into the ecosystems.

I think AI cannot take over human creativity. You know, it can be more efficient about how they use existing stuff, but I don't know if they'll be at a level of creating originally creative stuff. So that's the whole EQ versus IQ debate, right? That I don't know where I heard that Google is training for EQ, but I don't know.

Yeah.

Wow.

They make movies about this kind of stuff. So Aditi, what do you like to do for fun?

For fun? I like to embrace, embarrass my kids. Like, you know, show up and do stuff that they find silly. And please don't post this on Facebook.

And so you like to torment your children? That's your, that's your source of fun?

That's my entertainment here.

How many children do you have?

I have a daughter and a son.

Yeah, very good.

And I'm a newly minted empty nester.

Ah, yes, we are going into the empty nester phase next year, in September of this year, I guess. It's not even next year, it's coming up. So what's been your biggest, what's been your biggest joy about being an empty nester?

You know, I have, I think it's the fact that I can open up my career ambitions, right? Because for the longest time, I was on the mommy track. And then I had to reinvent myself because I came from India and I waited for my work permit. And the kids, I thought, you know, when the, um, when I was waiting for that, I studied, and the only productive thing I could do is produce kids. So, so that took 10 years out of my career. And there I was in international business. Here I reinvented myself and started from scratch in digital marketing. But I always would say no to jobs in San Francisco or, you know, anything which didn't revolve around the school and, you know, how— when I have to get to pick them up and stuff. So now I feel this freedom to say yes to a lot more of things that I want to do. Um, but I have actually, looking back at my career, been blessed to be able to work as a contractor where, you know, you have to roll up your sleeves and actually do the work, hit the ground running very fast, adapt to different teams. And, uh, and then I had the privilege of working in different environments, right, from Series B stealth mode to midsize to enterprise, you know, like hugely matrixed organizations. So I feel I have understood how they do this business of marketing very differently depending on the luxury of, you know, the Rolls-Royces of marketing ops and tools and tech stack and budget and bandwidth of resources. So, you know, there are so many things I want to pursue, which is why fractional gives you a lot of leeway in exploring all these avenues that you feel that you've missed out on because you limited yourself as a mother.

Yeah, that's fascinating. So your, your empty nest era is going to be an entree into work, which is really different from many people who think of it as more of a winding down retirement opportunity. So that's fascinating.

Yeah, people who have been working for without break, whether it's husbands or even wives with little kids who have stuck to companies and the same tool over 20 years because they wanted that job security while the kids were little. I think I have retained my excitement about working. I'm not as jaded because I took this break and I wanted to get back there now. But coincidentally, I used to choose my working timings, do part-time contracting, take off in the summer to go help my mom with her knee surgery. So many things that I used to think that when I'm finally out of all this, I can do the 9 to 5 and commute in this Bay Area traffic. But it so happens that now we are post-pandemic and work from home.

Yeah, you don't even have to do it. You have to make that consolation. Well, then what is— who is your ideal client?

You know, I enjoy clients who give marketing their dues. Who think it's not an afterthought for them. I'll— even if they are, you know, most of these startups in the Bay Area, at least, they will start with the product and the engineering teams, right? Maybe a CEO or somebody. So marketing comes in later, and to help educate them about the value of marketing has been a pleasure, right? But at the same time, when you go into an organization which is already mature knows the impact of marketing. They need a certain kind of step growth that you have to be very sophisticated about. What works for the stealth media or Series A/B clients will not work with the mid or enterprise where they've plateaued out. They need new ideas. They want you to take it to the next level of growth. So I think it's good to have that switcheroo and practice differently for each of these scenarios.

Yeah, and as a fractional, you can go in and out of the different clients and learn from the different clients. You bring that—

these—

those different perspectives to each client to be able to add value.

I like being a fractional CMO is a company needs fractional CMOs from that perspective too, because they go through different stages of growth. So one size does not fit through all stages of their growth, one CMO. They might need a certain type of CMO early on versus later in their evolution. And if they have a certain skill set that suits well for the early part of their hockey stick growth, it might not be the same person who takes them through the later stages. And so it was smart for companies to think of that when they go through CMOs? Because average CMO tenure is also around 2 to 3 years, mostly, right?

Well, and we, before we started Your CMOs 6 or so years ago, we saw that statistic that the average CMO lasts 2 to 3 years. And it made perfectly good sense then for us as a fractional CMO company to set expectations of, you know, we want to be with a client 18 to 24 months and We have clients that we're with 24 or 40+ months, 4 years plus, but we have many that are shorter durations and it's natural and it's okay. And that's a value add to our clients that they're working with a partner that understands that we'll meet them where they are, whether they're early stage, mid-market, and we're there to drive a certain step change as you've mentioned. But we're not, we're not there to be their forever marketer. We can't be.

Maybe they'll rotate fractional CMOs with you.

Yeah. You know, that's an interesting one. We've had some transitions for, you know, like somebody was going on to take a full-time role. So we transitioned a new CMO to kind of backfill. But we've not had what you're describing as kind of a rotation because the the needs changed or the, the, the, I don't know, roles changed, requirements. But I do see that as certainly something that's going to happen.

From a marketer's perspective, you come in with a lot of ideas and you become part of the team, and then you start doing a lot of internal echo chambering after a while. Yeah, yeah, you know, so it's good for the market also to have that.

Yeah, I agree. And actually, as I think about it, now that you mentioned it, our longer clients, some of that we've had 4+ years, are actually on their second CMO. So it wasn't planned that way, I guess. But yeah, it is. And they— and when— and then when they brought the new CMO, it was a burst of energy and activity and things were different. And the clients seem to enjoy that change as well.

Interesting.

Well, Aditi, if one of those ideal clients wants to reach out to you, or if anybody wants to reach out to you and talk about demand gen or in all things marketing and motherhood, how best would you like someone to reach out to you?

Well, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn, or they can reach out to me at my Your CMO email ID. We can drop both those links in the job description—

sorry, in the Yeah, we'll have both those in the show notes so they can easily get a hold of you.

Yeah, perfect.

Well, thank you so much for, for being on the show today. I really enjoyed going a little bit deeper into the demand gen and, and what's next with AI, and, and briefly about motherhood and the joys of that, and now your new phase. So thank you for sharing.

Thank you for letting me have this platform because Your CMO is somewhere that I found this peer group of CMOs. It's always good to have that tribal knowledge because if you're running into something, you can always come back to people and, you know, talk to them. So I really like this community that you have created. So I really wanted to thank you for that.

Ah, thank you very much. And thank you for our listeners. We, uh, love having a chance to share a fractional expertise with you.. And if you would be so kind to reach out to Aditi, I'm sure she would love to hear from you. And also consider subscribing to our podcast. My producers say that's important to do. So if you can do that, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much. See you next week.

And that's a wrap. There's another successful episode of the Fractional C-Suite Retreat. See our show notes and more episodes at fractionalcsuitretreat.com. This podcast is sponsored by your CMO. Helping organizations grow, save time and money with better marketing strategy and fractional execution. Visit them at yourcmo.com. Your CMO dot com. Spelled wrong on purpose.