Reebok Founder & Syntilay's Ben Weiss: 'Big Dreams Begin Where Others Don’t Look'

Today I'm joined by one of my heroes, Joe Foster, the co founder of Reebok. His grandfather literally invented the spiked running shoe. Joe took that legacy and ran with it. Him and his brother built Reebok into the number one sports shoe brand in the US by 1989, before it was sold for a massive $3.8 billion. Joining him is Ben Weiss, founder of Centale, a new startup building AI design shoes that are custom built to your feet. Joe Foster has backed and teamed up with Ben for the next chapter in footwear. What is your advice? As somebody who's right now having too many conversations in their head? A lot of our younger listeners are overthinkers, in my opinion, and are thinking more than taking action. What would you say to them?

If it's driving you crazy, get out of the business. Do something else. You can enjoy the bad times as well as the good times. Getting out of that problem is really fun. Finding your way out is really good fun. It's finding the key to the door. And if you're not having fun, change direction.

I just wanted to take a quick second to say thank you for being here. You're a learner, you're a doer, you're my kind of person. And if you want to join people just like you in our growing community of entrepreneurs and hit, subscribe right under this video. You grow, we grow, we all win. Thanks. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Joe Foster. Ben Wise. So wonderful to have you here on the podcast. This is such a special conversation for me. I'm going to explain why in a moment, but first I have to say congratulations to you, Joe. You just celebrated your 90th birthday. How does it feel?

Feels 90 years old. Yes. It's actually not bad. It's one of those things that it crept up on me. You know, it's like what happened to the last 20 years or even 30 years? Yes.

I'm 45 myself, so I'm literally half your lifespan. And so I got a lot to learn from you today. Ben, what have you learned from Joe? Working with him closely about his longevity. How is he still doing what he's doing at 90?

Well, I think he's somebody that just stays active, you know, in every form of life. And if you have purpose and meaning in your life, you know, there's reason to keep going always. And Joe's doing things that people, you know, 45 years younger than him would be doing today. He's traveling around the world speaking, you know, he's, he's talking about his book. He's helping advise on new companies. He's working with us to bring out the future of footwear. You know, when you're doing things that I guess younger people would be doing, you always feel young and you can stay young. So maybe that's the key to the success and to the longevity.

That's a good point because I'm around a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of my friends are at the stage in their entrepreneurial career where they maybe sold the business. I just sold my software company of 10 years a year ago. And there's this moment of trying to seek purpose again. How do you continuously find your purpose, Joe, and kind of have that fire?

Well, I, I guess really it started with writing the book. I think that that really started the. I, I stepped back and just taking life easier like you are and, and enjoying the sunshine in a tropical island and thinking this is good. And then we didn't have computers, we didn't have smartphones, then we got computers, then we got Google, then we got Wikipedia. And then they started telling me how Reebok began. And of course it was a lot of made up nonsense. So after putting up with that for a year or two, I decided the best thing to do is write a book. Wrote a book, took a while, published it. And then the, the university said, joel, we know what you're trying to do, tell a story, but this is a business, this is a business book. And from then on I invited, come and explain, come and talk to us. So that's what we've been doing. I guess that, that got me on the move again and never stopped.

Love it. Love it. I can't wait to get into so many topics, but I want to start with a story that I just thought of. I just remembered when I was ordering my new pair of Scintilles, right? I was, I was going through the process. I was ordering my beautiful custom made shoes that you guys created, which is incredible. And I'll go through that whole experience later on in the conversation. But it reminded me of my first pair of like really nice pair of sneakers. I was nine years old, it was my ninth birthday and my dad surprised me with a pair of Reebok Hexalites. It was my first pair of like shoes that I was like so excited to wear to school the next day. There were black hexalytes. I remember they had like the honeycomb in the back and the bottom of the, of the sole. And I kept those things so clean. I took care of those things. I wore them until my feet hurt because I was growing, you know, but what I remember the most about them, and this is, this is 89, 1989. What I remember the most about that was that I was one of the cool kids. Now I had a pair of Reeboks, right? I want to go back to that moment in time in 1989 when Reebok was the thing. Like everybody wanted a pair of Reeboks, everybody want a pair of pumps, right? How looking back at that time and knowing that you are at the height of urban wear and the height of, of, of sportswear, do you look back and say, you know, of course I made it, you know, I worked so hard. You know, like shoemaking is in my DNA. Or do you look back at it and say, I got lucky. What are your thoughts when you look back at those days?

It is a mixture because you do need luck. If you don't have luck on your side, it's going to be hard. So number one, enjoy yourself. You know, you got to have fun. And if you're not having fun, change, change direction, do something else. I mean, I stepped back at the beginning of 1990, so we had made it. And by that time we'd become number one. We'd overtaken Adidas, overtake Nike. And whilst I built the international distribution, it became a point where I'm just in an airplane, you know, business class, staying at the best hotels, eating at the best restaurants and just really waving the flag. So the excitement had come for me, you know, that's the difference between Reebok then and Scintillay now. Scintillay now is very similar to 1958 when we stepped away from the family business and said, we're going to have to work on our own, build our own business. So that's the excitement, the, the not knowing what tomorrow brings. Because when, when tomorrow brings you, as it did with Reebok, three five star shoes from Runners World. When you get those things, that's the excitement. When it gets so big that there's thousands of workers, you got lots of lawyers, you've got lots of accountants and lots of people in between.

Okay, I wanted to touch on what you just said. You know, your, your grandfather invented the first track spikes, which is incredible if you think about it. If anybody has, you know, run track, they know how essential that is and just how essential just modern footwear when it comes to sport, you know, people used to blister and bleed back in the day. Your brother teams up with you and you guys start Reebok, you don't take on the family business and you, you go for the adventure, right? Take me back to that decision. It's a huge risk. You know, a lot of the people that listening to this show are taking risks. They're calculating risks, they're thinking about their next move in business. How do you do that without feeling like you are being irresponsible?

Well, I think really it's probably the opposite. To us, we, we, it was our responsibility to earn a living. We needed a company, we, something to do. Because Jeff and I, we'd just done national service. I'd done two years in the raf, Jeff had done two years in the army. And you're away from home, mother's not there, your dad's not there. You're making your own life and your own opportunities. So for two years, we've been away from the family business and the family. We came back and we immediately saw it was failing. And I took my father to task on this and said, we better start marketing. He didn't even understand the word marketing in those days. Get on with your work. So it fell on deaf ears. And unfortunately, our decision had to be, what do we do? You know, do we just wait for this collapsing? Because my father said, when your uncles are gone and I have gone, because they ran it themselves, they inherited the business from my grandfather. When your uncle's gone and I've gone, the business is yours. You can do what you want with it. And I said, well, that's all right, dad, but unfortunately, this business will go long before you and Uncle Bill will go. This will be gone, this will be dead. But didn't make any difference, just fell into fears. So Jeff and myself, we've been away from the family, we could look after ourselves. We decided we'd go back to college. So at nights we went to shoe college and learned a little bit more about shoes. But although we learned about shoes, what happened is that when we did leave and we wanted a machine and we wanted materials and we didn't know where to go, we went back to college and asked. So they became our go to place. Where do we get this from? Where do we get this from? And so that was really good, but we had to do something and we'd stepped away from the normal family life. So going on our own really wasn't a challenge, it was a necessity.

Incredible. Ben, let's fast forward 70 years from that time period. You're starting your company, you're starting scintillay with Joe. Tell me a little bit about the genesis of this Idea why? I know you guys are big on, you know, influencers having their own branded, you know, footwear, you're big on customization. But where did this idea come from? How did you team up with Joe? How did this all come about?

Yeah, so for some time I was thinking that there should be a brand built around, you know, the next generation of consumer Gen Z thinks differently. It aspires to be like different types of people and you look at it across the board and when it comes to the footwear space you have, every brand today has been pretty much born and bred in athletics, specifically running and then pivoted some of them towards basketball more because it's sport with a non spike shoe you can wear as a lifestyle product. Right. Football, your football is bigger than basketball. You know, there's other sports that are bigger than a USA football but you can't wear those shoes casually. So basketball become the biggest and you know, it's shifted. We've seen the influence shift towards people and hip hop can sell their own shoes and it does. It's not necessarily tied towards performance of that individual in a sport. You want to wear their shoe because you like their lifestyle appeal. So for some I was thinking that there's going to be this third wave, you know, and the numbers already proved that of instead of it being basketball players with signature shoes and then it's shifting towards hip hop. There's going to be content creators, people with influence on social media platforms that have lifestyle appeal because they already sell millions of dollars in merch and hats, shirts, shorts, hoodies, everything under the sun. But generally across the board they never do shoes because you can't make shoes a merch item. You have to do it right. There's a level of quality and a standard that's set in the space. So unless you're going to make that investment, there's kind of no way for you. So we realized that if we had an interesting method that could make shoes faster and more affordably than what was traditionally in the space, we can now give creators a shot. And some of the biggest hurdles have been mold costs. You have to spend a couple thousand dollars every single size. You've got to go and then take your minimum inventory requirement and then house that somewhere. You still have that requirement and you've got your design expense. So what if you can make something faster and more affordable? And so we thought AI design 3D printing could do that. And it turns out it could. It took our time down from, from you know, 18 months to three months to make A new shoe, and we don't have molds and we don't have minimum inventory. We could just print on demand. Now we can say to anybody, hey, you're a creator. Let's give you a shot. And we don't have to deal with the same risk profile. So along the way, you know, alongside this kind of creator idea, basically I was thinking, how can I get somebody who's, you know, been there, done that, who has this expertise to guide this along? I mean, I'll have a much better chance of success. And I've worn Reebok, you know, all my life. I've read the book Shoemaker. It's a great book. And this adventure and excitement was, you know, and the journey was there, but also just so many lessons in the book. And I was like, I gotta get Joe to come on my team. So reached out online and he and Julie decided to take a meeting, which was, of course, a good decision. And, you know, then got to meet up with them in Fort Lauderdale shortly after, and they decided to jump on. And I think liked the idea, and also liked the idea of creators, but also like the idea of integrating technology more into footwear.

That's an incredible story. And like they say, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. So, you know, Ben took a shot and as you could see, he scored. So that's, that's, that's the lesson to take from that. I am so impressed by the whole experience of buying a Centele shoe. I went through the website that you sent me. I, you know, chose my color. I got the red ones. I think they look really cool. And I'm sure I'm gonna post it on my Instagram once I receive them. Hopefully I'll be getting them in a couple of weeks. And I went through the process of ordering them, taking photos of my feet. The process inside the website would scan my feet to make sure that it's built for my specific shaped feet sized feet, all that kind of stuff. And I just thought when it happened, it was kind of like the iPhone or driving an electric car. It was like, why didn't this exist before? Like, this makes total sense. Like, why am I trying to fit my foot in a shoe that's not made for me? You know, like, especially me. I'm. My wife makes jokes about me because I'm very finicky about my. My fit in my shoes because if it's just a little bit off or my heel is slipping or, you know, something is just not feeling right, I just Return them. I can't. I can't play in them, I can't walk in them. I just won't put up with it. That kind of innovation is so needed and it's so incredible and it. I can't help but think of how that is kind of in the DNA of this company and the influence of Joe, because the Reebok pumps were huge when they came out. Everybody was just like, this is. Makes total sense. Can you walk me through, Joe? How did the pump come about? What is this idea of tightening the shoe through the tongue, all that kind of stuff? And how did it just catch fire so quickly?

Well, I think with lots of innovations and it was an innovation, okay. Nike were using under the heel in a nice sort of cushioning way and they also tried to put a bladder into the upper. The difference between Reebok and Nike is that Nike, they, they designed it so you had to use a pump, but like a cycle pump to pump tires up. That's what they did. So you had to have something extra to. To screw on to their idea. Whereas, of course, Reebok used the. What looked like a tennis ball or a basketball half of that, and you just pump it by pressing it. Now, it's just the innovation. It's just that caught on. People didn't want to have a pump to pump things up. How do you carry that round with you? Whereas, as we know with Dee Brown, he just bent down, just pumped his. No, look, dunk wall, and that was it. So really, it's how you present an innovation. The idea that you've got a bladder in your. In the upper, which will now make it fit better, that's a good idea. But I tell you, it took an awful lot of getting it right because you've got, you know, we'll say a tire on a car or a bike, it's fairly rigid when it's blown up and it doesn't go anywhere. You can press it a little bit, but the shoe has to move, as, you know, your foot is moving all the time. So they had a lot of problem in designing that bladder, right. So it didn't. It didn't fall apart all the time, but, yeah, great idea. Hexolite was a great idea as well. So if you've got some ideas. And there's the same with Ben now, so with AI designing 3D printing, fitting with scanning, there were three ideas that. Brilliant. Catch on. That's great. The only downside to that is that 3D printing doesn't allow us to make millions of Them if we want volume, we've got to improve. So we're looking at that, trying to get people to get these machines to work a little faster and then that's it, we'll own that business.

So what is your advice to somebody who is looking to innovate in their space, whether they're a coach, whether they're a software, you know, founder, and they're trying to kind of differentiate themselves from the competition because a lot of people, they just try to maybe just look at the other companies, their features, their kind of highlights and improve upon it rather than do something totally different. What advice would you give them?

Well, when you wanted to get into a market, it's finding space. For us, white space was the important element and that is where can we be different? You know, when, when Jeff and I left the family business, Adidas had come into the UK and taken on the soccer business. So the soccer business was the place for us to go. We didn't have any money, so we had to move to things like cross country running, fell running rugby. Rugby was the north of England. So you can look for spaces or you can look for technology. With technology you need some knowledge, it's something else. And if you're moving in that direction, fine. Ben found 3D technology. He found the right people for doing that, and that's great. The reason that the larger companies are up there is because of volume. They can't get the volume and they need to be traditional to get the volume because that's the only way you get to where Nike are now, over 20 billion in revenues. You need to be able to make and make fast. So, but what this does give us, it gives us uniqueness, it gets us onto the market and it gets the name Scintillay well known. And now we can move, we can move left, we can move right, we can do traditional, we can do different things, which is what we're doing. So it's getting that momentum which is now there, plus the fact we're going to try and get 3D printing to get a little faster. If you can get that, that'd be brilliant. But you know, anybody who wants to find space, they've got to look at all the different areas where they would like to make a difference.

Ben, what has been your strategy or even your challenge when it comes to your go to market strategy? Getting scintillate into the hands of people, getting people aware of your brand, being educated on how to buy this shoe, It's a different buying process than a normal pair of shoes. What has that experience been like for you?

It's a great question. So initially we started out by trying to focus around how this design is something different and then the fit experience is something different powered by AI. And I think that that's done really well with, with traditional media, with legacy media, because it's, it's, it's a headline grabber and it's something that is, it's exciting and different. And there's so much talk about AI that seeing AI make a physical product, something so new in general, let alone just for the sneaker footwear category, just AI making physical products, you know, something exciting and different. But I think with social media we have to have a different approach which we're, we're still actually in the process of today and we're rolling out, you know, fairly soon where we're going to, we're going to have it be more experiential. So we'll maybe do some interviews in person with people and get their reactions to what they think about it, what they think AI can do for shoe, and then what they think about, you know, seeing an AI shoe, like how that, how that looks to them and how that feels. Because a 3D printed shoe feels so different. Specifically the ones we've made. Like it's, you know, it's one print, but it's really comfortable in some areas and softer and then it's harder on the bottom. It's the same one print, but it has these triangular structures inside that make it strong and give a different density, different areas. And the visual images, visually it looks so different. It's so exciting and unique. So there's a curiosity that we really want to really focus on more from, from the social media world. But we're, we're focusing also on in person experiences and I think that people are unaware of even that you can get a fully 3D printed shoe, but let alone one that's scanned to fit you, let alone one that's designed by AI. So we have, you know, I think we have to get in person with people, show them what this is like and let them, you know, touch, feel it and try it out. And so we're going to be opening something fairly soon in a couple months to have that experience for them because I think it's essential. It's just so new and, you know, it's great to get something out there and get something into people's hands so they can, you know, kind of put something in their minds of really what this is with an experience.

What's the Number one thing that people say when they try them on, well.

People are just surprised by how comfortable they are. I think that people have this notion, like, 3D printing anything is kind of hard. You know, if you look at, like, if you've ever owned a 3D printer or felt something 3D printed, usually it's like these, you know, hard objects that are, like, one piece and, you know, they don't necessarily even look soft. So people feel the 3D print shoes, and they, like, expect it to be, like, not that comfortable. But then they see it and they're like, wow, this is. And they feel it. This is really comfortable. It's quite squishy in some areas. It's even, you know, more comfortable than some of the traditional shoes out there. So that's one aspect that's surprising. I think also, just like, people are unaware of, like, what you can do with design today. So they see something that's 3D printed just. It's just so ahead of its time. That's like, you know, people, is this a real shoe? You know, I can actually wear this. It's going to last me, you know, six months, like I would expect, traditionally. Yeah, it's going to be fine. So getting over some of those hurdles has been important.

Incredible. Joe, I read your book Shoemaker, and it's an incredible story. And your journey is a lot of ups and a lot of downs, a lot of tough times, a lot of challenges. A lot of people look from the outside and they think, oh, Reebok, huge name. Everybody knows is Shaquille o', Neal, Allen Iverson. They think all the people that are associated with Reebok. I want you to just think for a moment how you got through some of those tough times and share your advice to somebody who's listening right now. That maybe is in that trough of sorrow right now, is in that dip in their business where they need to see it through, they need to kind of grow out of it. What would you say to them?

Well, I think anybody who stays in business as long as we did with Reebok, you're going to go through a lot of times. But it all depends how you approach it. We were only 18 months into our business when we had to change our name. That was probably the first time we felt, oh, what is all this about? And, okay, there's a story. You've read the book. There's a story to how we got the name. So we changed our name. Four years into our business, we had a letter from the lawyers of Adidas, and they're saying that our silhouette, we had two stripes and a T bar. They said that infringed three stripes. By now we're saying, well, we still don't have the money to go to court and say, no, no, no. We're totally different. So we change. And I think people, you know, we learned the lesson that when you get problems, when you get challenges, think of them as opportunity. And if you think of this as an opportunity, you'll probably find a way around it. And so we did. We just changed our silhouette and we came up with the vector which we now see on all Reebok shoes. So. And I think that applies to lots of things. We had numerous times when we could have got out of business. Our distributor, he. He went. He went bankrupt, went out of business. And so we had to find a. All of a sudden production, nowhere to sell it. So we had to find a different way to sell it. And we did that. We turned around. I think it's being nimble on your feet, which at 90, I'm not quite so nimble anymore. But certainly when we were younger, we were fairly nimble. We just went out and we did different things. Yeah, I learned that in those early days. I mean, now you look at retail. Retail has changed tremendously. When we started out, the sports stores were very small. Just a small sports shop, maybe two or three in a town very small. Now we've got fewer sports stores, but they're massive. They're absolutely global now. And I used to go to these small sports stores, take my shoe in and say, I'm Reebok. And the guy would say, oh, yeah, okay, who are you? What's this? And look at the shoes. Say, yeah, light the horse. Very nice. But I've got. I've got Adidas and I've got Dunlop. Why do I need Reebok? And the number of times I got. Why do I need Reebok? And they didn't. They didn't need Rebot. And as soon, as soon as I learned that, that they didn't do Rebot, that was. That was the time to give up trying to sell to shops. I had to sell to the athletes. I had to sell to my consumers. So we started going direct, and we found different ways of going direct. And since we're in the running scene in the uk it's the three A's. The Amateur Athletic association, it's still the three A's, but there's no more amateurs. They're all earning money these days. But in those days it was. And they Produced a handbook with about 400 different clubs in the UK and they had the name and address of the secretary of every club. So that was it. I could go to any club I wanted. And then I advertised with the clubs for agents and I got agents. And of course the agent wanted to shoot. So in my first letter, I got 100 agents. I sent two or three other letters and eventually ended up with about 300 agents. And we actually took the running scene in the UK with this because we were dealing direct. So it's finding the way to get your product sold. It's finding that way, and you have to do it and eventually, eventually go different.

I just love what you just said because those who are listening right now, business is a contact sport. The more contacts you make, the higher likelihood you're going to have success. I've seen emails from my listeners saying, you know, I'm struggling with marketing, I'm struggling selling my products or services. I asked them, how many offers have you made, how many emails have you sent? It's like less than 10. Like, you, you gotta. You gotta give your business more of a chance of, of success, you know, you gotta give it more opportunities for you to, one, refine your sales pitch and sale and your product and how you present it and even just your. Your ability to connect with people. You know, I could tell just from the brief conversations we've had, Joe, that your sincerity and your earnestness is something that's likable. You gotta be a likable person to sell your products, you know, So I think that's a huge takeaway and I just wanted kind of to point it out. One of the things I absolutely loved about your story, Joe, is even in the worst moments in your struggles, you never felt sorry for yourself. You never said woe to me. You just get on with it, you know, just pick up the pieces and keep going. What is your advice as somebody who's right now having too many conversations in their head? You know, a lot of our younger listeners are overthinkers, in my opinion, and are thinking more than taking action. What would you say to them?

Well, I mean, you've almost answered that yourself. You know, you need to do things. You need to get on. You need to, if it's driving you crazy, get out of the business, do something else. Don't worry about it. If that bit fails, don't worry. Move on to the next one. Move on to something which is working, that you can make work. It's like many things, if you can invent something, but if nobody wants it, don't try and keep on making people want it. If nobody wants it, move on, move on. Whatever it is. So whatever driving you crazy, if it's marketing, go see somebody. Go have a word with somebody. Talk to somebody who really is good at marketing, and you'll find something different. But basically, are you in the right business? If you have that much trouble, are you really doing the right thing? Because you can enjoy the bad times as well as the good times. Some of the bad times, getting out of that problem is really fun. Finding your way out is really good fun. It's finding the key to the door. It's whatever it is. And if you have the. The attitude that the people around you, your team, come on, guys, let's get it. And somebody can just mention something. That's the idea. Let's do that. As you say, meeting people, we built a team. And you've got to listen to your team, listen to people, because that's where the answers are. Lots of people will come up with a simple idea. Wow, what's that? Like our guy in Los Angeles, his wife was going to these classes, and he said, what are you doing, Frankie? And she said, aerobics. And he said, what? What's aerobics? We all know aerobics now, but in those days, what's aerobics? And so he followed up, just a simple sort of, what's happening? What are you doing? Because she was coming home and she was full of it. She was so excited. Okay, so if you look at Reebok, we started off with my grandfather in athletics, in running, and we stayed in running. But what made Reebok into what we know now as Reebok, and that's women. Once we got into aerobics, our volumes grew. And then we had that horrible time when we said, what are we now? Are we in aerobics? Company? Are we a woman's company? Are we a sports company? What do we do? Because about 70 or 80% of our business was aerobics at one time. And it was a question, well, let's become a sports company. Let's go into basketball. Because basketball was big in America. And the one thing I learned, if you wanted to get into a market, first of all, crack America, go to America. If you can get into America, the rest of the world is easy. Get into America because that generates all the awareness that you need, is get it into America. You know, it's just like Reebok. Now Reebok is trying to come back. And so they've gone Back into basketball, which will work, but they've also. They've also got to get into the moles now, get visibility. You. You got to get that visibility now in the moles. And, you know, you'll. You'll get back again, but you've got to think of new ideas, new ways.

I love what you said, Joe. You know, I get asked a lot. You know, my journey of building and selling my software company, Webinar Ninja, and people ask me, like, you know, what was your, like, most proud moment? What are the things that you remember the most? And to be very honest, the thing I remember the most or the thing I'm most proud of is getting out of jams, getting out of a tough situation, solving a big problem that can make or break my business. I can remember them vividly where it's just like, I don't have the solution now, but I'm going to sleep, and I'm gonna wake up in the morning, I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna talk to some people. And that's. It's not the sales. It's not even the, you know, the 30,000 customers we got. Whatever it was, you know, it was that ability to solve a problem. Okay. And I think that's something really important to be addicted to, that feeling of like, I'm a problem solver. And I love that about business in general, but especially just building and growing a business. Ben, I want to move and shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about your journey building Centale, trying to get the word out. You know, we talked about, you know, how unique it is to buy a shoe. But I want to talk a little bit about, like, the future and what you perceive that you're going to be able to accomplish in your business with this brand in the Next, let's say five to 10 years.

Well, we see it. We see ourselves becoming the content creator shoe company. But also we have another part of what we're doing which is backing brands that are, you know, have lifestyle appeal, that are established, that have never done shoes before. So we think these two areas are going to be. I mean, I think they're gonna be massive. But the content creator space in general could be the biggest niche today in footwear. I mean, you look at how many content creators there are, there are more than there are top athletes in professional sporting leagues today. Their audience is derived from everyday engagement. You know, it's not a byproduct of their performance somewhere else. So there's a Massive competitive advantage in that. And they connect with their audience very differently than the traditional athlete connects with their audience. And you can see even now from sports like F1, everybody there has become a content creator. They're posting videos on training, on getting ready for the races. This is now the way of the future. You need to go and engage with your audience that way. That's what people are expecting from you. The people that truly do that on an everyday basis, they have that advantage. And so we have partnerships we've already signed with different various people and brands and we have more that we're working on today. And we think that we signed one recently with a brand as well. And I think that that will kind of bring forward this, you know, this opportunity of giving these people the ability to be creative or brands and you know, in this space and do something from zero to hero in a couple months that's authentic to them. And to truly find out can they do shoes or not, you, that's a big question that we just has kind of been evaded because there's this half a million million dollar cost to go and do something in this space. You have no idea what you can do. And if you can do something well, you could potentially have the biggest revenue stream, especially for raiders, the biggest revenue stream possible to you. So we want to do a couple of those and then ramp that up 3x 5x 10x and then that becomes the market and the appeal is already there in that space. But there's also a lot we want to do from a technology standpoint. We're developing new technology now that enables your experience to be better wearing shoes and to be. We've seen already the trends are around lightness, but we think that there's more that can be done there. The perfect fit experience is really cool. We have something we're developing that's an in person experience around that to get a really amazing fit experience done. Even more than just what you can do from the phone, which the phone is still pretty good, but you can go even more high quality than there. So from a tech standpoint, there's a lot more we want to be able to do to push AI to its limits, to have it generate more designs, to give you the opportunity to use AI to make your own designs without maybe even us involved. So I think that there's so much that it can do and it's just kind of doing one thing at a time so we don't overwhelm ourselves.

So let's say, for example, somebody's a Travel vlogger Rick Steves. I love Rick Steves. Right. Is the idea that Rick Steves can just create his own walking shoe and then have the Rick Steves shoe, and he can promote that to his fans and followers and say, hey, if you want to walk in my shoes as I go through Europe. Is that the idea?

Yeah. Essentially, he'd be able to come in and create his own shoe.

Rick, if you're listening, this is your chance.

Become the creative director on his own shoe. Work with our team. We automate four major stages of the process, including the initial concept phase, the 3D model creation. We have a generative model that creates patterns and textures all around the shoe. And we can go and work with him and or anybody make a new design, and then they can help promote to their audience, and we can help promote it. And, you know, based on how it does, we could say, hey, let's make something similar traditionally and go and invest in all those molds and at least we'll have an idea and find out. We have to hit those that volume, like Joe mentioned. But one of the best ways to just get going is without that and to see what you can do, you know, with ad design, 3D printing, and then you can go into volume, which is a much better route, instead of never giving any of these people a shot. And you can take more swings at bat, you know, a lot more than what you can do traditionally because you don't have this huge cost expense. So, you know, and you can test out comedian sell shoes. Can UFC fighters sell shoes? Can WWE performers sell shoes? Can, you know, ex musicians sell shoes? Yeah, you know, there's so many categories that have been just completely not tested yet because of the cost hurdle. And then once you find out if they can do shoes, my gosh, I mean, the market's massive. You could go and just, you have the case studies, you can go and get everybody else over there. And some of these areas are so big, and they're just as influential, if not more than the basketball athletes.

So I went through the process, like I mentioned, ordering your first model pair of shoes, which are a really cushy, nice pair of slides. I can't wait, because I change out of my basketball shoes into slides after I play basketball because my. My feet are all sweaty and I don't want to, you know, have all funky feet. But is what are some challenges you're having with the types of shoes that you can create and how do you guys look to overcome that? Or is it more of an adoption of an idea of like, maybe we don't really need shoes with laces. We just need customers to understand that this is the evolution of shoes.

Yeah. So I think our biggest hurdle right now has been cost. You know, it's just been fairly expensive to make a fully 3D print shoe. It's been three times, I would say more expensive than traditional. So that eats away your margins and your ability to scale is not fully there yet. You can do thousands of pairs, but. And now we're seeing tens of thousands are possible, but you need to do millions and more. So, I mean, those are some of the issues that we've experienced, which is fine. Like we put something out to build awareness around what we're doing and, and it became a breakthrough in this space to make the first AI design slide shoe that you can get is something different, exciting. We still also need to make more styles aligned with what is present out there. I mean, this is something a bit different. It looks like a yacht, the way the shoe is shaped, and then it has a yacht bridge on it. And then there's these patterns and textures that are influenced by sci fi artwork that are generated all around it. Something very different out there. I think we need to be different, but be a little more on trend with what's currently going. But still there's a room for these types of interesting products that push the category forward. So we still want to make those, of course, but now make them for lower cost and be able to sell them at lower cost too. I mean, when we came out, we were the first, we were the most affordable, fully 3D printer you could get. Omar, that was a big deal. I mean, Adidas just came out with something at $140, $10 cheaper, like five months later. And I think we're going to surpass that by a lot fairly soon, which will be a big deal. But I mean, it's, it's just really cost inaccessible. And even, I mean, this has been $150, I think is pretty good, especially for a custom made shoe. You know, you can't get anything kind of custom for that, that cheap. So we really strive to make it as affordable as possible, but you know, it has to have those margins built in, you know, as we go too. But yeah, there's, there's an education hurdle, but I think it's about making designs that are also more on trend that fit within what's traditionally accepted.

Yeah, I actually really love the style. It has this kind of avant garde look to it, a little bit kind of eye catching. Like, that doesn't look like a traditional kind of slider shoe. So I kind of, I really love it. Joe, when you came on board, when you started working with Ben, obviously it was an exciting time. But what was one of the pieces of advice that you gave Ben from your experience in Reebok?

Never become a shoemaker. Don't learn how to make shoes. Let. Let shoemakers do that. You just have ideas. You just tell, tell them the, the, the craziest ideas where a shoemaker will say, can't do that, can't do that. Like when we started up with, with aerobics and they wanted to make it out of glove leather. And I said, you can't do that and you can't. And, and they, they were wrong because it broke apart, but they aligned it with nylon to make it stronger. And I said, no, you can't do that because it stops it breathing. Leather breathes. Oh, right. So what did they do? They punched holes in the front, and when they punched those holes in, that allowed you to breathe. So being a shoe. Yeah, being a shoemaker holds you back. You know, you've got to have loads of ideas which are not shoemaking. And so marketing is key. Marketing is key to everything. Just have ideas. And I mean, eventually we got the leather right for the aerobic shoe. It was more like a garment, garment, leather than a glove leather. But if we enter, started off with glove leather and worked our way through, and that's marketing. So marketing is always the best key. You know, you'll never make a profit off 3D printing. Yes. Will you? I don't know. It may come. Somebody may get the key to how we can print these shoes in three hours or 30 hours instead of, I think it's 30 hours now to print a shoe. Maybe you can do it in three hours, maybe do it in less. But if you're a Nike and you want to keep your volumes up, Nike must make between 15 and 20 million pairs of shoes a month. So you've got to get to think, well, that's it. I've got to get to some sort of quantity like that maybe whether we get as big as Nike, I don't know who knows where you can lead this to. But you've got to think differently. You've not got to. You know, you go to college, we went to college to learn shoes, and you learn a certain way of making shoes and then it's, how do you make them differently? That's where the marketing comes in. Somebody has to have an idea. You can do Something different. I'm sure that you can go to any shoe college in the world, and they won't show you how to put a bladder into an upper so you can pump it up. They won't show you that you're making. That's marketing.

So you learn the rules so you can break them.

Yes, yes. Somebody has to break.

I love that.

Yeah, that's. That's. That's the way to make a difference. It's the way to make people think, wow, that's. That's odd. That's. Let's have a look at that. And people are interested in something novel. Something. But it. It might be novel. It has to work. It has to work.

Yeah, I. One of the things that really struck me about your story was your drive to succeed with Reebok and. And. And pursue your passion of creating an innovative type of footwear and kind of superseding what your grandfather did. That was at the forefront of what I found very important in your story more than trying to get rich. You know, a lot of people, they get into business because they're like, oh, I just gotta become wealthy. I gotta put money as the top priority. I found that when you put money first in front of your customers, it's very hard for you to be successful. It's very hard for you to actually become a market leader, to become even just a profitable business. Tell me a little bit about how you tried to balance financial success with your passion to put out a great product.

Well, I think if you really do get a great product, finance looks after itself. But you're quite right. I do a lot of talking these days. When people talk about you're an entrepreneur. Well, what is an entrepreneur? I don't think I am an entrepreneur in one sense. One sense is. And we have a good friend who's just written a book which is start, scale, sell, repeat. That's the book. Start, scale, sell, repeat. And that's okay. That makes you money if you've got some good ideas. But I'd rather be known as a brand builder because people like entrepreneurs who can start, scale, sell, do they ever own any brand? Do they have. What is the ownership part of that? Whereas with Reebok, okay, Reebok is no longer in my hands. But I'm a founder, and they can't change the founder. You know, we made something. They can't change a founder. So whether they agree with me or don't agree with me these days, it's. I'm still the founder. And that in itself, so building a brand is great. It doesn't necessarily have to be your first job. You could be doing other things. But if you've got in mind you. You want to build a brand, Scintillate could become one of those brands where people just remember, wow, you remember Scintillate? Yeah, the first AI shoes. You know, these are the things that you. That really make a difference. There's certain things that stick in your mind when you're growing up through life. They stick in your mind. Like you say, the first pair of shoes you got were the Hexalites. And you now you. You can still picture those shoes without a problem because you can still feel them. You can still, you know, think about that. Like, wow, that was it. Okay, so Jeff and myself, we founded that brand. That is something that's different, that. That's something to hold on to with, with Scintillate. Ben, he's founded Scintillate now. Let's make it big, let's let it grow. Let's let more people know about that. And, you know, Ben's 25 now. By the time he's 30, he'll be a billionaire.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you're totally right about this idea of building a business, building a brand that's integral into people's lives. You know, that's a core memory of mine. Those first pair of Reeboks and just how meticulous I took care of them because I valued them so much. They were an extension of my personality. Like, this is who I am now. I'm a person that wears Reebok, and that's the power of a strong brand. Ben, I want to ask you, what have you learned from Joe about building a brand as you're building Centele?

So there's, I mean, there's a lot I've learned from him. I mean, just one piece of this is just the level of persistence needed to make something happen. I mean, you read the book, so you understand the North American distribution, you know, in America, just figuring out how to go and bring this to America. How many times he attempted, I think it was six times over 10 years to try to try to make this happen, and then finally found the right person. And then when he did find the right person, the brand just took off. But he kept going. He kept going to these trade show fairs to try to find this individual and didn't give up over many years. And that persistence doesn't change. I mean, it's as essential today as ever. Maybe it will happen faster with social media and stuff like that. With the right, bringing in the right partners and getting the right eyeballs in what you're doing. But, you know, that persistence is massive. And a lot of this stuff only happens when you have somebody that has that drive and a team that has that drive and will go to great lengths and never give up until they make something happen. But like Joe's also mentioned, like, you have to have fun in what you're doing, you know, and I've heard him say this a couple times when he talks, and I think it's so essential. I think people forget about that. You know, it's like you really need to enjoy what you do. I think you'll go much further if you are passionate about it and you really enjoy the process and experience, experience. Solving some of these problems can be a lot of fun. And Joe's already shown that, you know, he's had the adventure of the life of a lifetime. You know, he's become a living legend through this incredible experience of taking a brand from nothing, barely affording his own equipment to make shoes through the best selling shoe brand in the world, you know, and if he can do that and give, and give me some lessons from there, you know, I'm in a much better place. So that's what I've been fortunate to get so far and looking forward to more of that.

That's incredible. I mean, you can't really dream of a better partner, really. Honestly, I just want to just talk about that brand element a little bit more. Joe. One of the things I noticed about Reebok in my life is that everybody, despite what they loved or do, wore Reeboks. I vividly remember my basketball team wearing Reeboks. But then also my uncle plays tennis and they wear Reeboks. And my aunt, she is, she has a fast food restaurant. She's on her feet all day and she's wearing Reeboks like the walking shoes, you know. How did it become so ubiquitous? How did it become the shoe for everybody? And, and it's a style icon. People wore them and cuff their jeans in the, in the 80s, it was just so popular in all these different types of lifestyles, regardless if you're an athlete or not. Did that happen by chance or that happened by design? How did that all come about?

There is an element of luck if you're around at the right time in the right place and something happens, as happened in Los Angeles with Arnold and Frankie, his wife. And aerobics. We could have been pushing on the running game for a long, long Time. But we, you know, if you hit on something which is. Catches the imagination, I mean the thing about aerobics was. And this, this again is Arnold Martinez. His idea, it was brilliant. We make it just for women, women's sizes, make it in glove leather to make it feel brilliant. And men couldn't get it. Men couldn't get. And they were looking at these shoes and thinking, why can't we have this nice soft leather? Why can't we have soft shoes? So it creates images and after a while we moved it to tennis and basketball where this softness re brought in comfort, a soft feel to it. Yeah. And. And that, that hit something. You know, it hit. And once, once that hit we, that was good fortune though. You get your good fortune and then. Wow. And you know when Jane Fonda wore them in her videos. Yeah. Excited. It. It just happened. One thing happened after another. And there's a lot of brands out there today and a lot of making. Yeah. You look around and on. On have got something different. They made a space like Seoul and their uppers are different. So. And they're working. It's working very well. And yeah, the one thing is other.

Their quarter profits are crazy.

Yes. Well, they're all over. It's great. I mean right now. And the one thing I didn't expect was Crocs, you know, they're. And everybody. They've been going for some time. I used to know the CEO and they came back.

Yeah, yeah.

And the. But you know, some. Somebody in marketing said, well, why don't we've got these holes in. Why don't we put things that can clip into those holes so that everybody star or something. And now it's just, it's crazy. But yeah.

I just love that. That comment about luck but also just timing. You know, I, I was, as I was reading your book and as I was looking back at the history of Reebok and the timeline, you know, and I just looked at for example in basketball in the 80s, people were ready for something new. You know, it was, it was a bit of Nike for a while. It was a bit of Converse for a while. And you know, Adidas kind of had their foot in the game a little bit, but people are ready for something fresh and something new. And it was kind of getting stale and the designs are kind of getting. Seem like, you know, everybody's kind of copying each other. You know, if you look at the first Jordans, the Jordan ones, they kind of look like Converse. They kind of look like the All Stars. And then when Reebok came out with the pump and they came out, it just looked different. People were just like, I want something different, I want something new. I'm sick of everything else that's out there. So I think that boldness is rewarded when the timing's right. I think that's. You hit it on the money.

You have to have that bit of luck and you have to have somebody with good ideas and then you have to carry it through. And we were very fortunate with aerobics because we were only a 9 million company when we got into aerobics, and in four years we became 900 million. But to do that, a lot of things have to work for you, because financing, that sort of. In fact, financing wasn't the problem. It was finding manufacturing. How do you manufacture enough? We. We were up to 5 million pairs a month.

Good problem to have.

Yeah, you think it's a good problem, but factories can't do that. You know, factories. You can't just build a factory overnight. And we were thinking, fortunately for us, it was a time when Nike really hit a wall. Nike hit a wall. They came out, about four factories just came out and we went straight in. So the factories were lucky as well, because they had to go back in and keep them full. So it works. Works for everybody. Yeah. Being in the right place, right time, have a bit of good fortune. And, I mean, I know when I first started going to America, There are about 10 or 15 other British companies who were all sponsored by the government and we all went to America and Reebok were the only one to make it. Everybody else just didn't get that distribution. Because I remember my first visit to America. The Americans, they loved it. Oh, Lang, your product. Where do I get this product? And I'm saying from England. And they're saying, is that New England? No, it's across the water. Oh, they didn't want to import within. And that's. That's when I realized I need a distributor. But that needs. That needs money as well. So we needed things to come together. Fortunately, when we got Paul firing, he had connections. And even though that connection was to the uk, can you believe it? Because he got his money from the uk. Yeah, he got his money in the back end. And that backing was just really a credit line. That's all we needed. Right, a credit line.

Once you get a credit, just to get the flowing. Yeah.

So right people, right time and right product. So you need a few things there and a good bit of luck.

Yeah. And I'm going to add something here. Joe, because I see history repeating itself, you know, with the. People don't understand how big the aerobic space was in the 80s. It was kind of the first time exercises democratized. And it was especially big with women, which is more than half the population in most of the world. And, you know, I find this as one of the smartest moves in business history because a lot of people don't go after underserved markets. You know, this is a very underserved market at the moment. It's a booming trend. People are into it. Jane Fonda was like bigger than Whitney Houston. She was a celebrity, right? And she was the poster child of aerobics. And people had her VHS tape and pop it in and do the aerobics at home and all that kind of stuff. So this is a market that was kind of ripe for being served. And a lot of people, they're trying to go after all the same markets their competitors are going after. And they don't realize that there are people that actually need your product and service that are not being recognized, they're not being seen. And I say I see it repeating itself because with Centilla and with Ben, you know, influencers are being ignored. And people for the longest time have been saying, okay, I want to sell shoes or shoes, I want to sell my shoes. I'm going to attach it to a celebrity or to an athlete. Forgetting the fact that media has changed in the last 15 years and especially the last five years with social media, and influencers are now the underserved market that you're going after. Ben, I want to ask you if there's an influencer listening right now, somebody who has a following, somebody who's kind of built a loyal fan base and they love what they're hearing about Centale. How can they kind of get started? Is there some newsletter they can sign up to? Is there something that they can learn more about? How can they get on the early track of being somebody who sells scentille shoes?

Yeah. So, I mean, the first step is really engaging with our team and talking to us. And we can see is there an opportunity for them to make issue with us? If there's somebody that wants to help more on the selling side, we are going to roll out an affiliate type program, I think drawing some inspiration from what Joe did in the running world. Going direct like that. I think going direct is so powerful. I think if we can give influencers the opportunity to go and become their own salespeople for it and have a simple program where they get cut in that's something that really has a lot of potential to amp up and to scale. But when it comes to design, you know, design is something that, you know, that we can have them involved in and work with us on and, you know, just about seeing, can we work together. Does this make sense? Do we think there's an opportunity, you know, in this space and that's just, you know, through simply reaching out? But I think we're more open than most brands in this sense is like, I think we're the most open of anybody in terms of trying stuff. Like I was mentioning before, like, can. Can a comedian sell shoes? You know, can you have. I mean, there's just so many areas like that are just so unexplored. And now it's like, not as expensive and not as long to test something. I don't have to wait a year and a half to find out, can a Canadian sell shoes? You know, like, I can find that out maybe in three months, you know, so. Or even less than that. It's getting even faster.

So we're more open.

Like, we want to try things. We want to see what's going to work. Can the reality start from this, you know, type of show genre work for selling shoes? And, you know, we want to test stuff. So the net is wide. I mean, it's not infinite, but it is pretty wide. So reach out to us and let's see what we could do.

I love this because, you know, as a, you know, I'm not a huge influencer, but I have over 100,000 followers on Instagram, and I take a lot. You know, Nicole, my partner in life and business, we love taking photos, and often people ask us questions like, oh, what shoes are you wearing in this photo? What is that? And I'm like, oh, this is this, this brand. And I'm like, wait a minute, what? Why am I promoting these brands? They're not giving me anything. So this makes total sense that you're allowing the influencer to actually be invested in what they're displaying, what they're wearing, what they're, you know, what they're, what they're living with every day and experiencing. So I'm definitely somebody that absolutely love the experience of buying this shoe. So I think that is really kind of that kind of turning point where people are going to start realizing, okay, we've been buying shoes the wrong way. Like, why am I buying shoes and trying to fit my foot into something that's kind of already made instead of something that's made for me? So I think that's huge.

Yeah, it's definitely a whole different experience. I mean, you mentioned earlier, like the electric car and just some of these other things. Like, it's a whole different experience. It makes customization much more accessible, which has been pretty rare. And once you try on shoes that are made to fit you and you just realize like, wow, I wish everything was like this, you know, I wish all my clothes and everything I have is like that, all my shoes, because it's so good when it's done right, you know. And I mean, we're taking in information, 12 different data points we get from simply a photo of each foot next to a normal 8 by 11 piece of paper you get from your printer. We get your arch height, your length, your width, your instep information, and we make each shoe individually to fit you, you know, per foot. So it's not like you just get like one profile. Like, and sometimes people like, this is the first time ever they find out that my left foot's bigger than my right foot, my right foot's wider than my left foot. They never even knew that. Yeah. Why are my shoes not fitting me right? You know, so it's, it's, I think that it's something that, it's just so exciting and different and like you mentioned, you know, you need to do something different to really stand out. And, and I think people are ready for that. They want something that's, that's next and they want something that, you know, is designed for the age we're living in now. I mean, we're just seeing so many rapid developments in software and digital stuff. And what about the physical world? What about the way we look? Like everybody wants to look different now. Each shoe here is one of one. You know, every single one of them is one of one. Only one pair exists like that in the world. Everybody gets to be in and have something that's individual oriented for them here. So I think that's something unique.

Yeah, I mean, when I went through the process, the thing I thought of is like a lot of people don't realize your feet change as you grow, you know, like, you know, you start growing bunions. You start, your feet start to have a different shape. Some people develop flat feet, all that kind of stuff. And people probably buy shoes the same ways they've been buying since they're 18 and those shoes don't fit right anymore. And I think that this is like such a no brainer. When I went through this experience, I was just like, wow, this is how we should have been Doing things all along. Joe, I just want to touch on that topic and ask you, have you. When you, you were in Reebok, when you were obviously trying on the shoes that you're creating, right. What was kind of the litmus. Litmus test for you to say, okay, this shoe is going to be a hit or this shoe needs to be scrapped. It's not going to work.

Well, I think really you've got. If you can produce 10 shoes, test them on the market, you choose the one that works because it's the market that tells you it can be a color, it can be a design, it can be a soul, but the market tells you. So you produce enough for the market to tell you. I, I think it, it's probably too arrogant to say this, this one will work and you throw all the rest. No, let the market tell you that. That's where you go with the market. You know, if, if the pump and with the market, Reebok wouldn't have been selling pumps. But, you know, it's it. The market chooses what you will sell. And this is what scintillay is about. Scintillay is about giving people an opportunity to look at it and think, just as you were saying, wow, yeah, I can get a shoe which is custom fit. Okay. The bulk business in shoes, that can't happen, but you can make something nice and special. And if we can say, if we can speed up 3D processes, then that is the future.

Yeah. And I love the fact that there's so much. It's almost like this was meant to be because, you know, Reebok pumps were to help you have a better fit. And scintillase are exactly that. It's the perfect fit shoe. And what I love about it too, is that what Reebok did with a pump was that it allowed the customer, allowed the wearer of the shoe to interact with the shoe, like to pump them up to release the air, all that kind of stuff. And this process of scintillate, allowing you to interact with the creation of your shoe, allowing you to kind of feel like you're part of the process. It's not like, okay, wear them and I don't want to hear any complaints kind of thing, you know, just, just deal with what I give you. So I love this idea of interacting with the product. And I, I feel like in a lot of ways you value the product more. Kind of like the IKEA effect when you build things yourself. What was like the initial feedback that you heard when people were, when the market was Wearing those pumps. What were they saying?

I think we got a lot of things, and that is that the youth, Young, young people wanted them. They saw them. And I meet people probably your age and maybe a bit older when I come to America and say, oh, the pump. I was only a kid when the pump came out, and I just wanted those. And I had to. I had to get a job. I had to go on a paper round, do something. I had to get a job. And it's. It is that because people just found something that. That bit different, and they. They enjoyed being different. Like you say, they also had a relationship with that product. They did something.

Yeah.

And. And I think that that was. That was a uniqueness. Probably one of the best uniquenesses that that has come in footwear. I don't think anybody really has produced anything, though, where you can actually do something like that with footwear. So. And, and it's obvious again today, I know that Reebok are not as. Well, we don't have as big an audience as we used to have. But Shaq now is in charge of that with. With Allen Iverson. And, and, And Shaq has employed his son because he said his son knows what. What they want today. They are.

Yeah.

Colors. What's, you know, so they're going after the youngsters again, which I think is a good idea. And, yeah, I think we'll see.

I think it's brilliant. I think it's brilliant. And when you just shared. I was laughing and smiling a moment there because you shared a story. That was my story, you know, when I was about 12 years old. I want a pair of Iversons. The Iversons once came out, they were incredible. They had the Hexalites on the outside. And I was just like, this is gonna. I need these shoes. And my dad was like, hey, why don't you come to work with me? My dad was a car salesman in a car dealership, and he said, come to work with me and work in the wash Bay, wash cars, and I'll give you a ride on Saturday. So I wash cars from 9 to 3 every Saturday. You know, I was earning like something like $35 every Saturday. I saved up like, three weekends in a row. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to go and get my Reeboks. I'm going to go get my Iversons. And then the crazy thing is that I bought them. I never wore them because I was like, I don't want to get them dirty. I don't want to Crease them, you know? You know, but I would wear them when I would watch basketball on TV while I see Iverson cross up Jordan, I was like, oh, wow. This is. This is incredible. Surreal. But you are completely right. Like, if you were living in the moment, there was a sense that this is what you want. You is a magnetic pull to the designs, to the shoes themselves. And also, I think the affiliation of the types of athletes were trendsetters. Like Shaquille o' Neal has an incredible. I mean, people know him now because of. Because of tnt, but he. He. He is an incredible charismatic character. You know, Allen Iverson changed fashion and changed the culture in basketball. How did you guys choose who you're going to affiliate the. The brand with?

That wasn't my job. That was, you know, if you want to do things in America, employ Americans. No, nobody wants a North of England Brit. Come and tell them what works. No, in America, Americans know what works. So that was on the market. They chose Iverson. And I think that was great because he was such a rebel and such a crazy man. But, you know, I mean, unique as well. Unique. And if you can get some of that uniqueness into your product, it's great. And, you know, those are the things that people remember at the brand. And it's.

And he did all right with that lifetime deal.

I'm sure it's all right. Yeah, he's still. Still got some money to come, but he's employed now. He's part of the company.

That's great.

He's. He assists Shaq in helping help him bring back basketball. And I think if they concentrate, get that back, then we'll be back. They are back in tennis, but I think really, where personalities are concerned and influencers do it in basketball. Do that really well and reboot will come back.

Ben, Joe, I got a final question for both of you before we wrap up. I'll start with you, Ben. As you embark and you've been on this journey for a bit now with Scintilla, but as you start moving forward, as you start innovating, as you start growing the company, what is your personal ambition? What do you want to get out of this as a person, as an individual, who do you want to become through this process?

Well, I really want to make a difference in the world. I think that, you know, part of what we're doing here and the reason we call it scintillate is it's about shining. It's based off the word scintillate. And like, right now, if you look at What a lot of brands have done, they've marketed themselves around greatness and around achieving greatness. And you put on, you know, the shoes of X individual basketball player and you can feel like you can play like them, you can be like them, right? And you know, that needs to be extended out. Like, why can't you put on shoes and walk in the same shoes as your favorite YouTuber and TikTok star and maybe even business personality that has lifestyle appeal, you know, like, you know, you should be able to feel like you can get greatness in any aspect in life and not limited. And today, what I've seen, you know, half the youth wants to be content creators. This is who they aspire to be. Like it used to be when a lot of these brands were built, they wanted to be athletes and shifted as you know, media and influence has shifted online in general. So greatness needs to be democratized. You need to have the ability to feel like you can be great in any direction you want in life. And you can go after your dreams. And by wearing the shoes of your favorite people, I think that gets you one step closer. Building a brand around that, that makes a difference in the world, that has a positive effect on people and makes them feel like they can be empowered. To do that, I think will just make the world a happier place and have a lot more productive people and we'll see a lot more exciting innovations that come out of that. That's the goal here. And I Hope that in five years time, 10 years time, we've backed enough people, we've done enough interesting shoes, brought enough unique technology to the forefront that there's many people that are chasing something and going after it with all they have, and they feel inspired to do that.

Love it. And Joe, my final question to you. You're 90 years old, you have accomplished so much in your life and you're still going strong. You're starting this new venture with Centella. You're. You're still just as excited about this project as you were with Reebok. What's your goal and what are you trying to get out of this? What would you like to see in the near or in the next five to ten years?

Those ten years, I'd like to see those ten years. That'd be good. Reaching 100.

I love it. I don't see why not.

Why not? Why not? No, that's it. Ben can push me around then in the wheelchair.

No, no. My uncle, my dad's brother, he lived to 99, but I remember he's Tip Top health. And I asked him, when he was about maybe 91, I asked him, how have you maintained your health? How have you been able to live so long and still have a good quality of life? And his advice to me was, don't let anybody affect your mood. Anybody calls you on the phone with bad news, hang up on them. Anybody who hurts your feelings, just walk away. And I just thought that was incredible. How do you feel about that advice and what has helped you kind of just keep on going?

Well, what, what keeps me going is Julie, my wife. She's much younger than I am, and she's able to do the things that allow me to keep going. So that. That's right. And the fact that having written the book and having met people like Ben, you know, Ben has that much, so much energy and that, you know, that success is built on energy and just keep that energy and that's the excitement. That's what we had when we were building Reebok. What can we do? What can we do different today? How can we make a difference today? And, you know, not every day is a success. Not every day is happy. But if you, if you get up in the morning and say, I'm not going to be happy today, just like you're saying with your uncle, no, you get up and every day, not every day can be happy. But really, the bulk of you can have some real food, you can meet some real incredible people. You know, funnily enough, even today, Today we received a letter from a man who is 95 years old, and he said, I've got my JW Foster Spike running shoes, and they were beautiful and comfortable. They still are. I've got my Welsh 3A's international vest, more or less. Do you want them? And we're going to go and meet them because in one month's time in Bolton, which is where Reebok began, the. The museum there is putting on an exhibition for six months, all to do with sports. And it's Reebok, it's JW Foster's, and it's to do with Bolton Wanders, the whole thing. So. And. And they said, oh, we'd love to have that vest and those shoes and. And the letter. So that, that happened today. So it just keeps on.

That's incredible.

Yeah, just keeps on happening.

I want to thank you guys for. This is. Was incredible. I. I mean, this chat was just something I'll always remember because of the impact you've both made in the world. Ben, thank you so much for your time. And I'm I can't wish you enough luck because I think you've really hit the nail on the next innovation in footwear. I can't wait to get my pair of scintillets in the mail soon. And we definitely wear them. Wearing them and sharing them with my friends. Joe, thank you so much for taking a bit of your time to speak to our audience, speak to our listeners, speak to me. And thank you for the impact you've made in so many people's lives through the legacy of Reebok. I see you as a hero of mine because I see somebody that has created something out of thin air, made it successful, has built such an impact on the world. So thank you so much for sharing it with us.

Thank you, Omar. It's been a pleasure. It's an absolute pleasure. And thank you, Ben.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

It's great. Thank you.

Bye.

There you have it, guys. Wisdom from two founders who built things the world didn't see coming. Joe Foster in our conversation reminds us that timeless brands are born from relentless belief, from determination, from loving what you do. And Ben Weiss showed us that the next big wave is building something better and not necessarily faster. Big thanks to both of them for joining me today. If this episode got you thinking and got you dreaming, share with someone who needs that push today. And of course, visit scintillay.com that's S Y N T I L A Y.com if you want to order your AI made shoes and have them custom fit to your feet. I couldn't believe the whole process. It was a ton of fun. I'm going to get my slides in a couple days. They look fantastic. I got the red ones. And of course, if you want to go deeper and learn more about Joe Foster's story, I highly recommend you check out his book, Shoemaker. I gave it a read and absolutely loved it. And remember, whether you're starting your first idea or scaling your 10th idea, it's all about taking that next bold step, believing in yourself. Until next time, keep on going.