The 6 Minute Formula That Built An 11 Mil+ Audience. How @JordanHarbingerShow Started Again.

Jordan Harbinger. Jordan Harbinger. Jordan Harbinger. You can't have just one of the pieces and then hope to be good at it. It doesn't work like that.

How important it is to innovate, Push yourself.

I try. New things. Are they brand new? Brand new. No one's ever seen it before. Nah. But it doesn't really matter because it has my blend of presentation.

What is it like losing everything and having to start from scratch?

Yeah, that's a good question.

Today on the podcast, we have an extended conversation with Jordan Harbinger. He's also known as the Larry King of podcasting. Now, full disclosure, Jordan has been a friend of mine for over a decade and we decided to sit down and have a discussion in a recent trip that we did together to Paris. So this is an in person conversation. I can't wait to share it with you. We get into some really interesting topics. Jordan is a former Wall street lawyer turned talk host and been podcasting for over two decades, which is absolutely insane. He's been podcasting from before the iPhone. I mean, that's pretty crazy. He's interviewed over thousands of guests and today I sit down and interview him. I want to find out what makes him so successful. I also get into his. His story of leaving his former podcast, which he ran for over a decade, and having to start all over from scratch, creating the Jordan Harbinger show. That podcast, the Jordan Harbinger show that he runs right now, is a top 50 Apple podcast of all podcasts. So in my discussion with him, I want to find out what he thinks about what's happening in podcasting today, what makes him successful, what makes a great interview show, as well as how to bounce back when you are down in the dumps, when you have to start all over, when you are in the mud and you have to clean yourself up, pick yourself up and keep moving forward. This is a raw and honest conversation with Jordan Harbinger. Can't wait to share with you right now. I'll be back to wrap up the episode and tell you what to do next. Let's jump into that conversation right now.

Jordan Harbinger. When I was thinking about doing this interview with you, I was thinking to myself, how am I gonna start this interview? How do I.

Don't blow it.

Yeah, exactly.

So far.

C C in the first five words. But I thought of you and how you have a knack to get people to open up really quickly on your interviews. People share things they don't share on other shows.

That's True.

How do you like to start interviews? How do you like to get people to open up?

So I usually start before the cameras roll. I usually start with something personal. It's not really a secret or anything. I just will find something. Like with Ed Helms from the Office I had on recently, I think this actually got left in the show. But I said, what is this about you loving radio control cars? And he's like, oh, that's funny. He told me a little story and I was like, I love RC cars and I play with them with my kid. And I really got into them when I was bored this time. And he was like, I got into it because I was bored in Michigan doing, shooting a movie. So he got really interested and excited about this, like kind of admittedly silly hobby for an adult to have, you know, two grown ass men playing with radio control cars. It's a little juvenile, but we were both kind of into it. So having him admit that puts him in a space where he's like, well, I guess I'm talking about things that don't make me look like super cool guy, pretentious Hollywood. Not that he's that guy at all. Right. He's not that kind of guy. So getting him in that mode was a deliberate choice. And for me, I wanted to walk through the door first with that and be like, I'm also not going to pretend that I am some sort of cool, sophisticated guy. I'm going to admit that I have radio control cars that I pretend I buy for my kid but are really all for me and I don't share. And so he got a kick out of that and, and we, we started off that way. And then when I say things like what's up with the tooth in the hangover? It looks like it really came out. He's like, oh yeah, I have a tooth that you can remove. And he goes through all these sort of anecdotes that people maybe wouldn't necessarily talk about. He showed me a photo of him when he was a little kid to prove that it was really missing because he's, he's got this horrifying photo of him as a kid where he's like got braces that are just doing a lot, holding it all together.

Wow, that could have been easy.

He's missing a tooth and he's like, see, it's, it's really gone. So you kind of like try to figure out how to get people into the mode that I want them in as early as possible because otherwise it could take an hour. Hour and a half to get somebody to really admit something deep or talk about something real. Why would you spend all that time doing that when there's shortcuts to get there early?

Yeah. And what I find that interesting is that it's, it's a personal but not like, so, you know, private kind of question. And it's something that he probably never gets asked doing, like, press junkets and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, of course.

So I like that approach of like, just talking to somebody like a friend or getting to know them as a friend.

Yeah. So that's, that's why people will do things like, oh, I had Chat GPT prepare me for this interview and it's like, okay, but the problem is Chat GPT is going to go, all right, I read the whole book that you uploaded and here are the main takeaways. But what it doesn't go through is the time that they mentioned that they had a tire swing in the backyard growing up that they had made and that he spun around a bunch of times on and barfed. And you're like, oh, I've done that. So, like, you could start the interview with the story about how you made a tire swing in your backyard one summer and then he spun around on it and barfed all over. But that's not going to make it into, like, your assistant who read the book for you is not going to put that in the summary that they give you on your iPad. That's what a lot of hosts do. They do that stuff. So they all have the same commoditized interview questions because they got all the air quotes. Important stuff. But the unimportant stuff is what makes the interview really colorful and good in the first place. Otherwise you don't even need the person to be there. Just summarize the book.

I was looking at my camera roll on my phone and trying to figure out, when do we. Did I meet Jordan? When I get to know him? It was 2014, I believe it was some one day mastermind with, of course, John Corcoran, who invites everybody to everything.

That's right.

John Corcoran, like invited, like, introduced me to like half people. I know.

That tracks.

Yeah. Yeah. And I just remember you were there. I actually remember you rolled in. In a scooter. That's what that was.

Very memorable. Like a push scooter. Must have been in San Francisco.

Yes. You were in San Francisco at the time.

Like a kick scooter. Like a razor scooter for adults.

Yeah. And ever since we've been Friends. And we've been, you know, going on holidays together and you know, your wife Jenny and Nicole, good friends. And so one of the things I noticed about you early on is despite the fact that you've had a lot of success in your career as a podcaster, and you're probably one of the most successful podcasters I know personally, you still don't take yourself too seriously.

No.

Still make a lot of jokes. Even, even self deprecating jokes. How do you keep that in check? Do you intentionally try to like, you know, keep your ego in order or like, how is that managed?

I think it's. Yeah, maybe. But also maybe, do I deliberately keep my ego in check? Well, I have two little kids, they don't care what I do at all. My wife thinks it's kind of cool, but you know, like, whatever, she's over it, you know, it's been a while. Yeah. So, you know, and when you have friends that aren't trying to get things from you, which is like what real friends are not just like industry people, what are you gonna do? Be like, I'm kind of a big deal, so we have to go to the place to eat that I want to go to. I mean, you're gonna have real friends for very long if you do that. So unless you're only, you know, I think part of it is I don't take all of my self worth from doing the show. And the success of the show has had. I think I'm sort of discovering this answer as I tell you it out loud, say it out loud. I think if it's really easy, if your entire sense of identity and self worth is wrapped up in something you do, like if you're a famous actor and this is the only thing you do and the only thing you're known for and the only thing you're proud of yourself for, then you're the guy who's like, do you know who I am? I can't get a table here. This is ridiculous. Right. But if you pride yourself on raising kind children, you're not going to behave that way. If you pride yourself on having a really good group of friends, you're not going to treat them poorly because that would put that in danger. If you pride yourself on being in great physical and mental shape for age 45, you know, no big deal, then you're not going to go out and do a bunch of drugs and make a fool out of yourself. Right. So the. All these little things that I feel like I do that are not. Have nothing to do with the show are what make up the core of my personality. So it's really easy to make fun of myself because there's a lot going on that is ridiculous in my life. And so pointing that stuff out and being fun and funny with it is more important to me than, like, I got to show everyone they realize how important I am because I have a successful podcast and it's this kind of a ridiculous, Exhausting. It's exhausting. Also, I lived in Hollywood for a while and like, if you meet. You'll meet someone who's like, really famous or really successful, and they're just kind of busy comparing themselves to this other person who's on the billboard in the restaurant behind them in the restaurant. And then that person, if you met them, they're probably like, oh, I wish I was not a TV actor, but a film actor. And then that film actor is like, yeah, but I was the supporting actor to the. This other actor in this movie. And that guy's probably like, I don't know, trying to figure out how to have dinner with Donald Trump or something. So, like, nobody is. None of those people ever feel like they're at the top of the game. And it's realistically like, I'm a podcaster, right. So it's not like I'm ever going to win that game. Like, I'm never going to be like, well, finally made it to the Oval Office. Yeah. You know what I mean? So there's no point in really, like, playing that game and comparing yourself to other people. And so when you stop doing that and you stop putting your self worth in this weird hierarchy, that it doesn't matter if you take yourself down a peg to make everyone laugh because there's unlimited pegs. The pegs are irrelevant.

Yeah, I like that. One of the things that you touched on right now is that we've been friends for over a decade, and when we hang out, when we spend time together, when we travel, I can probably count on one hand how many business conversations we've had. It's more personal conversations, things like that. And one of the reasons why I was excited to do this episode with you is because I get to talk business with you a little bit. Yeah, we're in Paris. We're walking the streets of Paris and we're chatting a little bit about this. And I want to kind of dig a little deeper.

A lot of people have a different.

Understanding definition of what a podcast is. How do you describe yourself as a podcaster? What do you think your job is?

Yeah, That's a good question. You're right. There's a lot of flexibility in it. It's like, does it include video? Are YouTube Things podcasts or our interviews Podcasts? Podcasting is really just sort of like any recording that goes up on the Internet, in my opinion. As long as it's put in a series, right? Like, is it a show? So, like Fridays, we have our advice segment that's part of the Jordan Harbinger show. But then I do interviews that's part of the Jordan Harbinger show. The skeptical Sunday scientific ones. Those are part of the scientific air quotes. Those are part of the Jordan Harbinger show. But other people, they make, like, dramatized true crime and they've got music. If that's obviously a podcast, too. Two comedians riffing about the Diddy trial. That's a podcast too. Not one that I would listen to, but it's a podcast accounts. So I try not to gatekeep the whole thing because when I started in 2006, I remember everybody compared us to radio, but not favorably. Nobody was like, this is the new radio. They were like, oh, if you're a loser with no talent, maybe you can start a podcast. And then when I worked at Sirius XM Satellite Radio, a lot of the hosts there were like, oh, podcasting. Yeah, isn't that. Why did you. Why do you still do that? You have your show here now. You'd have to be like a loser with a podcast. And then it's. It's kind of comic comical now because now in 2025, those same guys will lose their contract at Sirius, and they're like, hey, how do I start a podcast? And I'm like, oh, step one, start. Back in 2008 when I told you that this was something that you should have done and ran the whole time alongside your radio show. Step two, good luck, man. It's tough out there. When I told you to start, there were maybe 2,000 podcasts. Now there's 2 million four. I know, 5 million. So have fun standing out now. I mean, it's not impossible. Now, I don't want to be a jerk about it, but I always thought that was kind of interesting. I don't really know how even important it is to define what a podcast is because.

But, well, how do you see yourself?

Like, when you walk into your office, what do you think about, like, this is my job. This is what I do. What are you trying to achieve?

So the mission of my show is to make people better informed, more critical thinkers. So on Sundays, when We have Skeptical Sunday. I'll debunk a topic. Like energy drinks is one we did. And it's like, hey, these are not good for you. Here's why. But they're not also like pure poison, like you'll see on some vegan blog, right, where everything has to be made.

Usually something in the middle.

Yeah, right. It's usually something in the middle. So we're like, here's why it's bad for you. Your heart rate is a, you know, 158bpm. Your resting heart rate, that's not good. That should be avoided. But if you're tired and you don't like coffee and you have an energy drink, it's fine. It's just not that bad for you compared to the thing you were going to drink that you've been drinking your whole life anyway. You're going to put 16 sugars in there. Fine, get the sugar. Like, oh, my God, diet soda. It's going to do this. All this bad stuff to you. It's probably not great for you. Is it better than going to get a Big Gulp and a slushie in the morning? Yeah. Is it better than a coffee with 20 sugar packets in it that you're drinking over the. Yeah, it's fine. It's just not that big of a deal. So we try and do this sort of unbiased stuff. I'm not going to sell my own energy drink. Right. So that's the grift. Right? That's the grift. And leaving money on the table. I was talking about this with Ryan Holiday. Leaving money on the table. Integrity is really expensive because you got to leave money on the table. If you want to get more clicks, you make up some BS and you get people scared and you share it. If you want to make more money, you tell people that everything in their house is poison, but you've got this one thing that's not, and you're selling it. And like, oh, if you want to be a strong guy, you need this protein shake, but not all these other ones. Get the one that I have that has my face on it. That's what these guys do. And it's a grift. They might even start out with good intentions, but the money is in telling people that they have to get the thing that you sell because then you sell more of it. So it's a slippery slope. And so I just decided not to do that. I don't sell anything of my own, and if I did, it would be, like, more content on my show. In a premium tier. Not like a protein shake or a diet drink or something like that.

It's a tough one. Yeah, I love that line. Integrity is expected. Expensive. I mean, as soon as you said that, I thought of, like, Muhammad Ali losing his boxing license because he didn't refuse to go to war.

Like, he had that kind of stuff.

Stood for something, and we admire somebody like that because of the cost. That's incredible. I love that line.

There's a lot of things in life that show that integrity is expensive. Not just in podcasting. I mean, there's. There's all kinds of. Ryan and I talked about this on his show the Daily Stoic. Just about parenting and things like that. Actually, parenting makes it easier because when I was a single guy, I think it would have been easier to say, well, I need to do this because I need the money to invest in my business. And so what? It's just marketing. But then when you have kids, you're like, how are my kids going to view this later on in my life? Or their life?

It's on the record.

And it's on. Yeah, it's on the record. So it's like, okay, did dad do this because he thought it was a good idea, or did he do this because he wanted to make a quick buck? Didn't he tell us not to do that kind of stuff? Okay, so he didn't act. And you're just like. You're imagining your kid who's like, 25. My kid's 5. You're imagining your kid at, like, age 25 being like, oh, so dad was kind of not really putting his money where his mouth is.

Yeah.

And then you're like, oh, I did it so that you could have a nicer, I don't know, apartment in college. And they're like, yeah, whatever, man. Whatever.

Yeah.

You know, and you got to look your kid in the face and be like, yeah, all that stuff I taught you when you were growing up, that was mostly just bs. I was just telling you that because I want you to be a better person than me. That's a tough argument.

That's a tough one.

That's tough. So integrity gets. Actually gets easier when you have kids because you have to look them in the face.

You mentioned you started podcasting in 2006. I do a talk on stages about my trajectory in podcasting. I started in 2014, and when I started 2014, I looked at all the top podcasters in itunes. Back then, it was before it was Apple podcasts. It was itunes. And I mentioned in the speech that, you know, I had to get real. How am I going to compete with somebody like Jordan Harbinger? Jordan Harbinger, who literally podcasts before the iPhone?

Like, yeah, that's right.

There is no iPhone. Forget about the podcasting app. There's no podcast, no iTunes store.

There's nothing.

So you started out very early, some would say. So what was the initial idea of why did you want to leave your career as a lawyer and become a full time podcaster?

Why did I want to leave? So this is. I'd love to pop this myth. So I started the podcast because I was recording talks I was giving and I was burning them to cd and people would go, oh, I need more. I need these.

What were these talks about?

They were about dating and relationships initially. So I started a networking class at the University of Michigan Law School where I was going to law school, and nobody signed up except for like three women. And then the room we were supposed to go to in the law school that this is like a free class. It wasn't like a real elective. It was just like a after school program. The room that was supposed to be us for us to use was always locked and. Or a hundred thousand degrees Fahrenheit, like a straight up oven with sun blazing in there. And it was awful. And so we started going to this bar called Ashley's in Ann Arbor. And I would teach the class at Ashley's at a table because it was like three women and me. And I was just talking about networking and networking systems. Now that's my six minute networking course, which is still free. And guys would say like, how come you're in here with all these, these girls? And we started to talk about dating and relationship stuff because that's what they were interested in. And I noticed the overlap between networking for business and job stuff was actually like really closely related to dating and relationships. So then the girls started bringing in their girlfriends because they were like, this is so interesting. This guy talks about body language and reading it. And we pick out a couple and he'll analyze the couple. And then it's like, all so interesting. So then the class was like 11 women and me and guys started to go like, who is this dude who walks in here with like 11 girls every Tuesday? And it's just like the center of attention. What the hell's going on here? And then guys started to sign up because they were like, I want to be in a class with a girl. Bunch of attractive women learning about dating. So then the problem was, I'D already run, let's say, eight lessons. And the guys were starting on day eight. And they're like, what about this? I'm like, I've covered this so many times. Here's a CD of my previously recorded lectures. If you.

So you record them when you're teaching?

Yeah, like on a Sony mini disc player. And then I would go back to my room and burn them to a CD. And guys stopped giving me the CDs back. And I was like, what's the deal? And they're like, oh, it's so interesting. I got to keep it. I'm like, no, I got to give this to the next guy. And they're like, what if I buy it from you? So I was like, fine, 20 bucks. They're like, oh, okay, I need five. I'm like, wait, wait, wait. What do you mean? Oh, I want to give one to my brother. My cousin desperately needs it. My dad just got divorced. I'm going to give one to him, and I'm going to keep one for myself. And I'm just thinking, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm not going to get rich selling CDs. But a lot of people love this information. How do I distribute a cd, but, like, on the Internet so people can download it? There was nothing that existed at the time. And my friend was like, oh, it sounds like this new thing called podcasting, where you can put, like, an mp3 file on a server and people can download it. And I was like, oh, I need that. So we set it up, and that was the beginning of the podcast. And then I was like, oh, this is kind of like Internet radio. So then I turned it into a show instead of just, okay, I'm talking about my stuff at this bar. And then after that, it was like, hey, welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. I'm talking about this today. And I would prepare a lecture, like an outline, which is similar to what you do.

Yeah. Interesting. I think what I love about this story the most is, is you didn't think about how to monetize it from, like, the first moment.

Well, what were you going to do? I mean, there was no such thing as a podcast.

Yeah.

In 2006. Like, there just wasn't. And also, I was going to be a lawyer on Wall Street, a finance attorney. I think I already had a job.

Yeah.

Lined up. So I was like, I was going to make, like, 160 grand a year. So how many $20 CDs is that at that point? Right. I Mean, it's just not a realistic thing.

Like, totally.

Making money on the Internet was not really a thing in 2000.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not discounting that. You have to monetize, you know, monetization and earning an income is important, but this idea of, like, I have something valuable here, let me get it out to the world. Let me not taint it with trying to milk every dollar out of it. I think that's a very important point because I see my own story in that. Because when we started the Hundred Dollar MBA show, I was really worried about getting sponsors in early. I wanted to just have a great show. Like, I knew that if it wasn't great, then it'll never grow and I'm just gonna be back to square one again. So we literally said like, no to everything until we, like, we're hitting 10,000 downloads an episode.

Yeah.

It took like about six or seven months, but it was. And we needed the money. Trying to be rent. Yeah. But that point of like, let me just focus on making this great. And usually that's my answer to anybody who's starting a podcast. Just make a great show. Like, why do you watch Breaking Bad? Why do you watch whatever movie that you just saw in the cinema and you can't stop talking about? Because it's just good content. This is great, valuable, entertaining stuff. What do you find is the hardest thing for, like new podcasters to get over this concept or just getting better off the mic?

Yeah, I think you're right. People are kind of disingenuous, I think, even with themselves, about why they start shows. People ask me this all the time. They'll say, like, what do I need to know? And I go, treat it as a hobby. It's probably always going to be a hobby. And they're like, okay. And no, no, no, really do that. Treat it as a hobby. Because I like Legos. You know, now the secrets now with the RC cars and the Legos. And now I have a kid, right? My kid walked into my office the other day and he's like, who's this?

This?

Because I had the, this Optimus prime in the box. It says 18 plus adult Legos. These are grown up Legos. He's like, is this for me? And I was like, no. And. But nobody, nobody buys Legos and then builds them and is like, man, I cannot wait to monetize this. This is going to be so awesome. I'm going to be famous for building LEGO sets in my living room. Nobody collects model trains. And it's like secretly, one day though, I'm going to be the model train guy. Everyone's going to look up to me. No one has a stamp collection or a comic book collection is like, I am really going to be a cornerstone of the stamp collecting community with this new thing that I'm doing. Nobody does that. Maybe, maybe there's some people, but I can't even imagine the person who would do that with Legos, for example. So nobody's really doing it with podcasting, though somehow, for some reason, people go, yeah, no, it's just a hobby. It's just a couple guys talking about sports in Boston over beers. And then in the back of their head they're like, but really, we're kind of like the next Joe Rogan. We're going to start talking about aliens and conspiracy theories. We're going to have famous people on eventually. Because my friend's cousin's friend's cousin's friend knows Derek Jeter's hairdresser, right? So it's like, I don't know where Derek is. He a Yankee?

Yeah, he was Yankee.

It's been a minute. So like, these guys, they, they say that it's a hobby, but it's like secretly they, they have an idea that it's going to pay for their next vacation or something like that, and it's just not the case. And I think the reason that happens, there's a few reasons for that, right? Because there are no famous Lego builders, but there are famous podcasters. But it's really unrealistic. You have a better chance probably of moving to Hollywood, getting a job at a gym, and trying your hand at acting as you do to become a famous podcaster. Because there literally are millions of podcasts. How many well known podcasters are there? I don't know. Double digit or maybe like low triple digit number? Probably double digits, I would imagine. People who are making a living doing it like a good living, nobody goes to act at their local ymca, community theater. And it's like, yeah, I think my next thing is I'm just going to be in the next Mission Impossible with Tom Cruise. That's just not how it goes. So why do people do that with podcasting? And you really need to examine your motives because if you're doing that, you're just going to quit, except you're going to invest a lot more than you would if it was just a hobby. Because you're going to think secretly, oh, this is going to pay for itself eventually. You should go into it thinking, there's no way that this is ever going to even pay for the equipment that I'm buying. It's a hobby, it's entertaining, it's. Otherwise, it's kind of like a gambler's fallacy where you're like, if you go to a casino and you play blackjack, are you thinking that you're doing it for entertainment purposes or are you thinking, I'm going to be a professional blackjack player? I'm investing in my education by playing this. That's one is delusional. And you probably actually have a better chance of being a professional poker player than you do at being a professional podcaster.

Yeah. I think one of the things I think about a lot is when I look at some of the biggest, most popular podcasts, what are they podcasting about? But also like, what has this person done? Like, usually these people have interesting lives.

Yeah.

They've written interesting books or have been comedians or are sharing a journey that's unique. I honestly think the only reason why I've had any success with the show is because I was sharing lessons that I learned building my software company with Nerninja and a lot of people kind of got tired of, you know, the banter or maybe like long form. Definitely type of stuff that. And I was trying to just like, hey, I'm an ex teacher, I'm just going to teach lessons. And I think that really is the only reason why I was able to kind of get some traction is because there's some unique value that you're offering. And I think that's kind of hard to find if you're not doing interesting things.

I agree with that 100%. When I go on trips like this, I often think, oh, I'm going to talk about this type of thing on the show. I mean, look, walking around Paris yesterday, It'll be a 10 second conversation on the show. But my trip to China, Yeah, I'm like, I gotta do this weird thing that's kind of exciting and then I'll talk about it on the show. Going to North Korea. Oh, I want to go to this place. But then I also want to make a side john over here because it's going to make for good content.

Yeah.

So I do that too. And I live my whole life that way, obviously. But yeah, you're right. You came up with lessons that were shortened to the point that people could really apply right out of the box. I don't love Joe Rogan content, but the reason he's famous and good at what he does is because before that he was an actor and he was a comedian before that. So he's got these presentation skills, conversation skills. He.

Connections.

He's connections. He's got interests that a lot of people have. I don't share them because I don't care about conspiracy theories. I like, you know, prefer science. I don't care about.