Author Pardis Mahdavi on Education, Human Rights, Leadership & the Future of Learning

Well, it's wonderful to meet you. Thank you so much for taking a minute out today. I appreciate it.

Great to meet you too. Thanks for having me on the show.

You bet. So let's begin our journey with this. The biggest air bubble, the biggest change in our lives was living through this pandemic. I don't think anybody thought this was going to happen in our lifetimes.

Yeah.

How, how much of living through that affected the way that you create and live today?

Great question. You know, I think one of the things that the pandemic showed us was this, you know, it laid bare this notion of— I'm writing a book right now, and the book is called Public Secret. And it's this idea that when institutions fail, trust doesn't die. It migrates. And it migrates to the underground, and it migrates to the margins, and it migrates to the machines. And I'm writing a lot about, like, when the system of education fails, people kind of start to, like, not trust education. They're more likely to trust ChatGPT than a Harvard professor. And medical system to people find alternative healing communities. But I have to say that I think the biggest thing for me during COVID was I realized, um, A, just how much I love and need to be creative. And the fact that we did slow down societally. So, yes, there was a lot of negative things going on. I mean, obviously, there was the panic. Obviously, my kids were being homeschooled, all of that. But it was also a pause. And that pause opened up— if you want to use your notion of like that air bubble, the pause somehow opened up enough oxygen for those of us who had found ourselves on hamster wheels to stop for a moment and say, wait a second, is this what I really want to be doing?

Yeah.

Or is it not? And for me, I'd always been a writer, but I had shoved it to the side. And actually, the pandemic was the moment when I turned back to my writing. I wrote 2 books during the pandemic and I found that that creative energy was really my life force. So it definitely changed the course of my life.

So there's a lot going on, a lot of titles, a lot of things in your world. If I put you in front of 12-year-olds right now at Career Day and you had to sum up your day job, like right now, what you've kind of done in your career, how would you answer that child at Career Day?

Oh, I would say I'm a recovering academic. So I went all the way up to the top of the ladder. I was a professor, department chair, dean, Dean, Provost, President. And when I got to the top of the ladder, I realized there was a lot of things that were broken. So I literally jumped off and started to create the solution. I saw that education was not supporting the students and not supporting workforce, and I knew I could build something to bridge the gap while also having more time to create. So I jumped off the top of the ladder. I now build solutions to bridge the gap between learning and earning, and I'm writing my books.

So what did you want to be when you were 12 years old? What was your dream gig?

I wanted to be a journalist. Do you remember Christiane Amanpour?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God. I wanted to be her.

Yeah, yeah. She's awesome. She's a badass. I mean, she did everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted to be her.

So talk to me a little bit about where you were born and raised and what were the seeds that were planted that made you want to be a journalist that got you into academia, and now you're a writer and putting books out into the world. What— how did this happen?

Yeah, good question. I'm a child of the revolution. So I was born in 1978, which is the year of the Iranian Revolution.

Yeah.

And my mom was, you know, 8 months pregnant with me. They came here to the States. So I was born in Minnesota. But that's only because the revolution tore our home country apart.

Yeah.

And then when I was 6 years old, a very pivotal moment was 1984 for us. And I remember because I came home from school one day and there was a sign posted in front of our house, on our door, and it said, burn this house, terrorists live here. And I was like, who are they talking about? This was after Iran hostage crisis, Iran-Contra. There was a lot of anti-Iranian sentiment. But I'm thinking to myself, like, my dad's a doctor, my mom works in hospitals. Like, we're trying to help people. What's going on?

Yeah.

My parents at that point made the very difficult decision to move to California because they knew a lot of Iranians were there. A lot of our family was in California, and so we we promptly moved. My dad was not quite ready to move to Tehrangilas or Los Angeles, so we moved to San Diego, close by but a little bit more laid back. But the importance of this moment was something my dad said to me in that move. It's something I never forgot. He said, you know, Pardis, people can take everything from you. They can take your belongings, they can take your home, they can even take your country. But the one thing no one can ever take from you is your education. And that stuck with me. You know, it was like, okay, school, school is my job. And so then later you asked me what made me become an academic. I wanted to help other people get that which can never be taken away, which is an education.

You know, my stepdaughter just moved to San Diego in December. And I remember telling her, she's 20 now. I remember telling her a few years ago, she was going through some things and trying to figure her life out. And I was telling her the exact same thing. I said, the one thing I, my was a little different. I said, the one thing that no one can take from you is your dream.

Yeah.

That, that will always be you. That will always be yours to, to go with. So yeah, it's very essential for us to understand that in this world of things that go away, especially coming from a country that again is in the spotlight again with another war and another uprising, is that there has to be things that cannot be stripped away from who you are and what you are.

That's right. 100%, Joe.

So right now, is it painful for you to see what's happening?

You know, the hardest thing is we had a lot of hope, certainly after 2022. You know, you had the Women, Life, Freedom movement. There was a lot of momentum. So even my own— so it's not just that I'm from Iran. My work has also been on Iran. Right. I've written a number of books on Iran. I, you know, it's been my field site and A lot of the work I and many, many, many of my friends did was really about shining a light on human rights issues, women's rights, gender rights. Like, and, and, you know, my, my first book was really about the youth movement and these young people fighting for their rights and, and pushing back against the regime. And, and we saw the movement getting stronger and stronger and stronger. And like I said, in 2022, it was just mass pouring out into the streets. 2023, you know, women, life, freedom. And then again, you know, just, just a few months prior to, to the war that, you know, began earlier this year, people came out, they were protesting the government. So what started off as like young people saying, we don't agree with the government 25 years ago grew and grew and grew and grew. And so now you have this situation where the majority of the Iranian people do not agree with the government, right? But And I think many of us had hope, so much hope that the regime— this is a brutal regime— and many of us had hoped that the regime would finally, uh, you know, be, be displaced so many of us could go back. You know, I, I was there between 2000 and 2007, and then, you know, I can't go, couldn't go back after '07. And many of us thought, this is it, we're going to go back, Iran's going to be liberated. And, um, I think it's, it's Right now, we've just seen so much, so much death and destruction just even in the last 6 months. So the hardest thing, honestly, Joe, right now is keeping hope alive.

Yeah, I get it. So let me ask you this. As a writer, I would imagine creating these worlds and putting your ideas and stories out into the world is quite full of empowerment and freedom and all of the things that creative licenses give you. What, what in the beginning were you reading that, that, that made you want to write, that gave you this love of literature?

Yeah, honestly, it started when I was young. I would read anything I could get my hands on. I, you know, I was that voracious reader who, you know, my mom was like, it's time for dinner. And I was like, just one more chapter, just one more chapter, you know, anything and everything I could get my hands on. But, you know, my favorite writers— it's interesting, some of my favorite writers from age 12 that are still my favorite writers would include Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Jane Austen. Like, the things that we read in middle school and high school became incredibly formative for me. And then I would say not so much his writings but his fervor, William Shakespeare, certainly. You know, obviously I don't I don't write like that at all, but his fervor and his willingness to just like dive in and just keep going was definitely an inspiration for me when I was young. You know, I was reading Shakespeare constantly because I was like, how does he make these sentences? But I would say probably, you know, Jane Austen, the Brontë sisters for sure, and then, you know, Hemingway and then some Persian poets. So being Iranian, I grew up reading Hafez and Rumi. They're 2 Persian poets. And to this day, all these years later, I still read one Hafez poem each night before bed.

Wow.

And, you know, there are parts of the year, like when Iranians celebrate Yalda, which is December 21st. It's winter. It's a long winter. So our holidays are tethered to the solstices. And so the winter solstice is our 2nd biggest holiday. The first is the spring solstice. But the tradition for the winter solstice is you stay up all night reading poetry. And so, you know, my kids and I will read Rumi, and, you know, it's— so I guess I would say I was also heavily influenced by Sufi literature as well.

Yeah. So do you remember the first thing that you wrote and you got a visceral response from somebody, and it felt like, I can do this, I can convey the stories and move humans?

Yeah, but that came much later for me. You know, I mean, Yes, I had teachers who encouraged me through high school. In college, I took a little bit of a detour. I studied diplomacy and world affairs. And, you know, that was great. I was getting to that— the sort of diplomacy side of the journalist out of me. But actually, yeah, I would say that it was my senior year of college. I was so fortunate I had an internship at the Los Angeles Times Magazine. Wow. And I remember my very first article that I wrote was about manhole covers in the city. of Los Angeles. And, like, my editors loved it because they were like, oh, you're also funny. And I was like, oh, I'm glad you— you know, like, I'm glad that that worked. And it's interesting because studying diplomacy, doing human rights work, there is this feeling like you got to always be serious. Yeah. And what I loved was being able to write in a way that showed the range of emotion and the spectrum of human emotion. So it was probably that piece I wrote for the Los Angeles Times Magazine And then when I moved to New York City for graduate school, I joined as co-editors of Slant Magazine, which was the magazine out of Columbia University, which was where I was doing my master's and doctoral work. And I got— every piece I wrote for that magazine, I got really good feedback. And I was like, maybe I can do this.

Yeah.

That was the— it was really like that senior year of college into grad school. That was that sort of, I'd say, ages 20 to 22.

That's wonderful. So who's been your inspirational force, your muse, your hero of sorts that's allowed you to navigate, to figure things out and to get to this place where you know what you want to do with your life?

Yeah, I mean, I think there— I've been fortunate. I feel like I've had a number of different, different folks, you know, who were like, look, I'm gonna follow my heart. I'm gonna follow my passions. And some of them are people who I'm fortunate enough to be friends with. And so I'm very lucky. I have some phenomenal creatives who I'm friends with. But one of those— a dear friend of mine is a man by the name of Jad Abumrad, who started Radiolab. He's a dear friend and somebody I turn to in those creative moments. And he's always followed his passion and his heart, and he makes really beautiful art, and I just love it. Like, him being true to his art has helped me stay true to my art. I think that's been important. You know, an author that I absolutely love is Maggie Nelson. And I just, I love the way she writes. I love the forcefulness with which she writes. I love the way that she just, like, goes after it. She doesn't even, like, does not even hesitate. She goes after really tough topics and she just puts it right out there. I've always loved that about her. Viet Nguyen is another one, and Hector Tobar. The Barbarian Nurseries was a book that really kind of— that was the book that got me writing creative nonfiction again. It just like plunged me right back in. Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot. I guess I would say right now my biggest muse are my 3 kids. Yeah. I have teenage kids. And, um, I'm writing for the world that they are inhabiting and going to continue to inhabit. And so in a way, they're like my greatest muses, probably.

So if you could put that journalistic hat on and get into that Christina mindset, if you could cover an event or interview somebody today that you find fascinating to cover it journalistically, who, what event and/or human would you love to sit down with and talk to?

Oh, gosh, what a great question. I mean, the first one that comes to mind is Michelle Obama. Like, I'm just fascinated by her endlessly. You know, how she's made— you know, how she— they tried to get her to run for president. She was like, uh-uh, no way. You know, I'm just like, you know, how did you find that fortitude? And I've just always found her to be an absolute inspiration. I think she's just an incredible, incredible human. You know, I think Angela Davis is another one I would have loved. I met her actually twice and I was like, I think I was so nervous I could barely say anything. I was like, oh my gosh, like, what is your— how did you get to be as amazing as you are? You know, and she just, she has a way with words, you know, and it's just fascinating to me. You know, another one, this one I guess lately has become a lot more controversial, But I've been always because I kind of— so much of my life, you know, the whole Harry Potter thing is J.K. Rowling. I'm like, how did you know? And I have written a young adult book and I'm just like, I love worldbuilding. And so I'm like, how did you—

Uh-huh.

How did you come up with that? In terms of like, you know, events to cover, I guess I would say, I would love to, you know, be able to go back to Iran right now and, and, and cover what's happening there.

Yeah,

that would be it.

You know, when I, I listened to Michelle Obama's book and she made it very clear at the end that she wasn't going to run, but there's a part of me that believes that she may have if we had sane politicians like McCain, right? It's like instead of lunatics that, that do things that aren't okay to other humans, I think if it would have been the way we knew politics were around the time Obama was running for office, maybe. But yeah, with this level of like lunacy, it's not gonna happen. There's no way. And the fact that people even pontificated on her doing it, it's like you obviously haven't read anything that she's put out and any reasoning. Because I think in the book it was when that brick went through the front window of the White House, right? At that point, I think that was when the sea change happened and she was like, I'm out. Yeah.

And who could blame her?

No, of course.

You can't.

Yeah. Why enter the circus, you know, when you want to get out of it? You know?

Right, exactly.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, what is it that gets you up every day to do the work that you do between the creative part, the entrepreneurial part, everything that you do? How do you stay grounded? How do you— what's the energy when the alarm clock does or doesn't go off to do all this at high level?

Yeah. So I'm one of those people that the alarm clock doesn't need to go off. Right. I'm actually, I wake up every morning just before 5. Even when I try to sleep in, Joe, I can't. Um, I wake up at 5 with like words just coming into my head. I'm, I'm just, I think I'm just one of those people. And for the longest time I fought that and I thought, well, try to get more sleep or, you know, go make lunches for the kids or go answer emails. And then it was really during the pandemic when I was like, No, like, there is a create, you know, I think, I can't remember which episode it is, but it's season 2 of The Telepathy Tapes. And Liz Gilbert talks about the idea genie. Have you heard that? Have you listened to that episode yet?

I listened to that. I don't remember that specifically, but that series—

So fantastic.

Crazy.

So fantastic. And so this, there's a particular episode, I think it's episode 3, but I'll find it and send it to you. And it's season 2 of The Telepathy Tapes, and it's Elizabeth Gilbert, And, and then, and then they interview like Tom Petty and some other musicians who corroborate what she says. Liz Gilbert is saying, she says, and this was, this is definitely my experience. She says, you know, these ideas, these words, they're like genies, they're like fairies, and then they come and visit you. And when they visit you, you've gotta grab them and you gotta write it down. Yeah. You know, and, and, and several songwriters say the same thing. Tom Petty talks about like he's driving on the highway and then he has to pull over because like a riff comes into his head, you know, and it's definitely that way for me. And Liz Gilbert adds this caution that if you don't write it down, somebody else will. And she says, have you ever had this experience of you have an idea for a book, you never get it done, 6 months later somebody else writes it? We all know that story, right? Or with a song or whatever. And so it's definitely the case with me. I'm woken up by the words. Like, they're just, they come to me. They're like, it's like this wants to be written. And I don't always know where it fits in the puzzle. I don't always know which book this fits into. But I get up every morning around 5 and I write for an hour. And then I'm part of a meditation group and we meet every morning at 6 AM for 30 minutes. And on Zoom, there's actually, we started out with, there was 4 of us 2 and a half years ago. Today there's 60-something of us. Wow.

Cool.

And we don't miss a day. Every morning, 6 AM, we meditate together for 30 minutes. So you asked me what helps keep me grounded. I would say it's really that.

Yeah, that's wonderful. So let's say you had a dream tonight, you ran into that 18-year-old version of you. Yeah, you walked into a room and there's a film projector, you click play and a 60-second highlight reel of your life comes up on a screen. Is that young version of you going to believe that your life turned out this way?

That the way it is today?

Yes, that it came— that all of it led to where you're at today.

I think that 18-year-old version of me would laugh, then cry for a while, and then finally now would probably give me a high five. I think that there would be a good decade of my life in there, probably more, decade and a half, that she would cry for me. Yeah.

Yeah. Would you give any advice to that young version?

I think I would say, you gotta follow your passion, like, live your life on your own terms. Own your own narrative. Don't let someone else write your story for you. And don't, like, live a chapter out of somebody else's book.

Yeah.

Like, you are your own book. And if you're constantly trying to fit yourself into something else and you're constantly trying to live a life, you're playing this guessing game of like, well, I should have this title and I should be making this amount of money and I should— the tyranny of the should that's going to leave you feeling empty more days than not.

So on that highlight reel, what are you the proudest of? What are you the happiest about?

I think I'm proudest of the fact that I got to the top of that ladder and I stepped off.

Yeah.

To follow my passion. That's probably the hardest thing. I mean, that I've— it's the hardest thing I've ever done. And I've like lived in war-torn countries. I've ridden into, you know, I mean, I've done some crazy— I've been locked in shipping containers with traffic survivors. That all pales in comparison to getting to the top of your game and then stepping off to pursue your passion. It is not easy to do. And, and, you know, There was a good like year in there where I was like, oh my God! What did I do?

Yeah.

You know. Now we're in year two, and I it's a totally different feeling. I've come to such peace with it and such exhilaration and gratitude for the life I get to lead now. You know.

For sure. So everyone has a perception of you: family, friends. Colleagues, fans of your books, knows you in all these different realms of life, but you run the show that we see. What's your perception of you? Who do you think you are?

I think I'm evolving. I think I'm somebody who's evolving. I think I'm a curious explorer. I guess I would say that's the— those are like the defining words. I'm endlessly curious. I love to explore and excavate the inner and outer world. It's— I just have this hunger. And maybe that's the journalist, maybe that's the anthropologist, maybe that's any number of things. But I have a curiosity and a hunger to explore that I think, thank God, will never be quenched because that's also what makes me a good writer.

So if you could get into a time machine and go back to any part of your life and be a fly on the wall and watch it unfold, what Age, what event, what would you love to have seen happen?

To watch it? Like I get to go back and watch?

Get to watch that version of your life unfold.

Hmm. Wow, that's a, that's a really tough one. Um, I guess I would want to go back to the period of time where I lived in New York City.

Yeah.

And I was in graduate school. And that was a time where I was really figuring out, like, finding my voice. And I think what happened is I scared myself, like, as I found my voice. And if I found out it was a lot louder than I thought it was, I scared myself.

Yeah.

And so if I could go back in time, I would want to do almost an autopsy of, like, What— why did I stop writing?

Yeah.

What made me feel like I gotta be an academic, I have to fit myself into this cookie-cutter box, like I have to, have to, have to achieve in this specific way? What made me feel that way? What made me do that? I guess I would want to better understand it because that's the one part of my life, and I loved it. Those were such formative and important years, right? I lived there between 2000 and 2006. Such formative years. And I think I, I really like— so many things happened. And of course, we're sitting here having this conversation on 9/11, and I watched the towers fall,

right?

You know, I was there in New York on that day. We were evacuated. I watched the towers fall. So it's a somber day for somebody like me.

Yeah.

And being Iranian, like, my life irrevocably changed that day.

Absolutely.

And, and we know so many Americans weren't even born then, but like, and, you know, I was there. I was studying human rights. I was studying journalism. I was Iranian. I watched the towers fall. And it was like, ever, I just, it was like in slow motion watching everything I understood just kind of crumble. And so, you know, I sit here, right, 25 years later on this day and Of course, I reflect back on that moment and I reflect on how did that change my life's trajectory in all these other nuanced ways that I maybe didn't think about before.

Totally. Yeah. What that, that cascade of all of the narratives is such an American story of just where we were and how things— yeah, it's just wild.

It's wild.

So if anybody wants to get your latest book, previous books, any of the good work, anything that's going on in your world, where do they go?

They can come to my website, www.pardismahdavi.com, or you can follow me on Instagram @mahdavipardis, or on Facebook or Twitter or X. And if you ever want to get in touch with me or learn a little bit more about my company, you can go to myuni.org or thresholdadvisory.org. I'd love to talk.

Excellent. I will put links in the show notes. What an absolute joy. Thank you so much for your story, your passion, your time. I really appreciate it. It's been wonderful.

Likewise. Thank you, Joe. Appreciate being on your show. All right.

Absolutely. Thank you.