Between Two Worlds: Pardis Mahdavi on Identity, Exile & Return

I have this favorite magician, and he's like, I can't be a magician without an audience. I can't do magic tricks in front of a mirror. Just like a magician can't be a magician without an audience, this exploration of self can't happen alone. It happens as you relate to other people. We are who we are through intersubjective relationships with people, places and things. The relationship I have with Legendary, I feel like, helps me feel safe enough to keep pulling those demons out and knowing that there's a group of people that'll catch me almost like a magic carpet when it gets to be sometimes too much. They'll just hold that space for me.

Welcome to the Legendary Podcast, an invitation into intimate, soul-baring conversations with the gods and goddesses of our Burning Man camp, the legendary Playground of the Gods. Here you'll meet the visionaries, wisdom keepers, heart-centered entrepreneurs, and edge walkers who make up this extraordinary soul family. Together we'll journey through the turning points that shaped us, the failures, the victories, the breakdowns and the breakthroughs, and what it truly means to arise and build something sacred from the ashes. If you've been searching for your people, if you've longed to find a community that inspires you to rise, you found your tribe. So join us now for another sacred journey. Welcome to the playground of the gods. Welcome to Legendary. Hello, Legends, and welcome back Welcome to the Legendary Podcast. I'm here today with Pardis Mahdavi, beautiful sister of the legendary Tam. I'm Celine DaCosta. I am your guide and your host for today's journey. And today we're going to dive deep into Pardis's story, see what this woman is about. I have heard rumors. I have met her briefly, and I will be honest, Pardis, I don't know much about you. And that is why I love these interviews, because I like to think of me and whoever else gets to know you is sitting in the seat right now where I am, and I get to surrogate and get to know you with very fresh eyes for the very first time. So welcome.

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

Me too. So for those of you who are meeting you, Pardis, for the first time, Can you share a bit more about what is it that you do for life, for work, and what makes you come alive?

Wow. All really big questions. I like it. You just go right for it. I don't like small questions. Right. Let's just dive deep. Let's just go for it. Let's see. I describe myself in the following 2 phrases. Uh, I'm a recovering academic. And a mystic cowgirl.

Ooh, that's really juicy, both.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So recovering academic, I was 25 years in the academy. So 25 years ago, I got my PhD and multiple masters at Columbia. I got my PhD in medical anthropology, and medical anthropology essentially is the study of the connections between soul, mind, body, consciousness, and looking at how different cultures approach these different connective tissues or cosmic linkages. So I became a professor for many years. I taught courses in sexuality, a lot of courses in sexuality. I taught courses on consciousness. I taught courses on migration. And then I rose the ranks in the academy. I was a professor for 11 years. I became a dean. I was a dean at Pomona College, then a dean at the University of Denver, and dean at Arizona State. Then I was the provost at the University of Montana, and I was a university president. And the higher up I went, actually the more unhappy I was and the farther I got from Feeling like I was in alignment. In the process, wrote 9 books. So on the outside, I was sort of like the picture of success and achievement. And on the inside, I was just in more and more and more pain. And my pain happened to dovetail with the pain of everybody who was around me, the students primarily. And I was in my career dealing with one mental health crisis after another amongst the students and many, many suicides, unfortunately, and having to be the one who, you know, helps to award the degrees posthumously. And, you know, that was a really profound mirror for me. What got me through all of that was turning back to my roots, turning back to The experiences I had in Iran, being originally from Iran. My first book was on Iran about sexual revolution. And while I was there, I actually learned to ride horses. When my depression and anxiety just hit a pretty, pretty major spike, I turned back to both the realm of the horses and the realm of consciousness, all the things I had been taught to try to find my way. And discovered my grandmother's story, discovered all these insane stories about my background and my life. But I like to say it was the horses and the mysticism that pulled me through.

Beautiful. Thank you. I can feel the depth of that. There are several layers that I'd love to unpack with you today.

Yeah.

Let's begin by tracing the roots, which is who you were Before you became the professor, the leader, the visionary. You mentioned that you're from Iran. You mentioned that growing up, and as you, you know, were in going into academia, you were just performing, performing, achieving, achieving on the outside, but feeling this really big pain on the inside. And so where did that

I think it's a combination. You know, you talk about the roots. I'm a child of the revolution. My parents came here. My mom was pregnant with me when the revolution in Iran was unfolding. And so she came here. And so I was born in the United States. My mom was, you know, pregnant with me when they left. Iran. And the plan had been to, you know, for them to, you know, my mom was very young. She met my father. The plan had been to raise us, you know, in, in the home country, in the old country. And then Iran was no longer the country that it was. And of course, it's interesting that we're having this conversation today because so many of those, that pain from back then, 46 years ago, is coming back right now. So—

And for those who are listening months later, can you give context as to what just happened a couple of days ago?

Yeah. So about 10 days ago, Israel attacked Iran by launching an unprovoked attack and has led to very serious and significant violent suffering. People are trying to get out. It escalated very quickly. And then on Saturday, President Donald Trump attacked Iran as well, an unprecedented United States involvement in the conflict. A ceasefire was announced last night. However, it remains to be seen whether Iran and Israel are going to accept that ceasefire. And so I'm literally watching my home country You know, live, be destroyed. And it's very painful. And it sort of takes me back to that time, you know, when I was young and, you know, born here and initially growing up in Minnesota, because that's where, you know, my parents, where my dad got a job. And, but growing up, you know, in the middle of You know, Iran hostage crisis, Iran-Contra, and constantly seeing, you know, my 2 countries at war, constantly seeing the United States narrate Iran as this great threat. Iran narrated the United States as the Great Satan. Seeing images of, you know, the United States flag being burned in Iran, seeing images of Americans condemning Iran. I mean, what does that mean for those of us who grow up with Iran and the United States in one body? If Iran and the United States are constantly at war, what does that mean if you are both? And so that liminal space— to add to it, my parents kept a suitcase packed in the corner of the house, like, we're ready to go. We're ready to go back to Iran, or we're ready to leave. When you grow up that way, that sense of liminality, of neither here nor there, of where do I fit in this world, becomes very heightened.

Thank you for sharing. I'm so sorry that's happening in Iran. And, you know, this peace that you're speaking into is I really deeply relate to what you're saying, although I can't know what it's like in your specific context as a, you know, I immigrated to the US when I was 10. I'm half Italian, half Brazilian. So that split that you're speaking into of how do I reconcile all of these different identities that are in one body, especially when they contradict each other, or even worse, when they are at war, literally at war with one another, which, you know, Thankfully, I haven't. It didn't go that far for me. But you sharing this, I'm curious to hear about what was your felt experience of that as a kid. For those of us who are listening, who can only fathom, we're looking from the outside in. And how did it then affect you or contribute to the pain that you're sharing, this pressure that you were feeling as you were making your way up the ranks, figuratively speaking?

Absolutely. You know, I think it's a couple things. First, I think that when you have that feeling of, oh my gosh, I don't know where I belong, am I safe here? That can lead to an intense desire to over-function and over-perform. And when you feel that you're For lack of a better word, resident somewhere is like, well, hey, you, you're lucky to be here. It makes you feel like, gosh, I've really gotta, I've really gotta step my game up all the time because I'm, I'm a guest. I'm always a guest. I'm never the host, you know? And, and then, you know, my father said something to me. So of course we were in Minnesota and then 5 years, when I was 5 years old, 5 or 6 years old, I came home from school one day and there was a sign outside our front door and it said, burn this house, terrorists live here. Like, who, who, what? And, uh, you know, my, my parents had experienced a lot of discrimination, racism in Minnesota. And so my parents decided to move to California. Um, that's where a lot of the community, Iranian community was, you know, Tehranjilas. Mm-hmm. People talk about big Iranian community in Los Angeles, but my, my dad didn't wanna move to LA. That wasn't really his speed. He was not from the big city in Iran. So he, you know, this is the early '80s, he visited San Diego and he was like, okay, more my speed. You know, sleepy beach town reminds him he grew up on the Caspian Sea. It was much more resonant for him. So we decided to move to San Diego. But my father said something to me in that move, which I'll never forget. And he said, you know, Pardis, People can take everything from you. They can take your belongings, they can take your home, they can even take your country. But the one thing no one can ever take from you is your education. And that really hit me hard. And I thought, oh gosh, I have to, I have to really excel and achieve. And then it, those same words were what led me to wanna be a leader. Mm-hmm. in academia because I wanted to help others get that which can never be taken away. What I didn't realize though was that he was speaking about a framework of education that was different from what education later became. And so that— those words always sat with me, the like, you gotta educate. So going to school became my job. achieving became, for me, my currency, right? That became the coin of the realm, I think, for me in legitimating my right to be here and that kind of that feeling of impermanence.

Thank you for sharing. Yeah, it's funny, my grandmother used to say something to me like that. She didn't make it Like, she ended up basically having 11 children starting when she was 17, and she had to drop outta school early. And she would always say to me, your knowledge nobody can take away. And I, I see the traces of the collective pattern of the immigrant child who really, really wants to succeed. And so like doubles down, like, let me learn English, let me get it right. Let me like, you know, let me be, get so good and so smart and achieve so much that it, Now you can't see where I'm from anymore. Or like, it's bigger than that. Does that resonate with you?

Totally resonates with me. Totally. Yeah, exactly what you're saying. Like, let me not only just learn English, what you said, but let me be really good at it. Not just learn something. It wasn't enough for me to learn Pilates and yoga. I had to get a certificate in teaching it. that same double down.

Totally. It wasn't enough for me to learn English. I had to become so good that everyone around the world thinks I'm American.

I thought you were American when I first met you.

Yeah, there you go. No, it's my third language.

Yeah, it's my second language. Second. I learned English and French at the same time.

Yeah. Beautiful. So let's go deeper here because this is really— what you're saying is really powerful. And what I what I love about your share is the way it illuminates the mechanism, the mechanisms through which we become in our success. There's the healthy fuel, and then there's the, I got to do this or else I won't be love fueled, which obviously, as we mature and evolve, we look to transmute. So you went into academia, and then you started killing it, and you started getting really good at it and really succeeding. So talk to us about this, you diving in and what that started to look like in your career as you're creating all these things. But can you tell us more about that dichotomy, that stretch that you were feeling inside?

Yeah. And full disclosure, I think that started actually— so when I was doing my PhD, I did my dissertation, which became my first book, on Iran and on sexual revolution in Iran. So I went to Iran for the first time in my life when I was, you know, 21 years old. I went back to the home country thinking, okay, I'm gonna go to Iran and here I'm gonna fit in. And then something extraordinary happened. I didn't fit in there. Like, so I was too Iranian in America, but I was too American in Iran. So either here nor there. And then I had gone to Iran to study the women's movement. Mm-hmm. And got to Iran and everybody, first of all, you know, Iran has this huge youth population and it's a result of, you know, a lot of the population got wiped out during the older population, got wiped out during the revolution, the Iran-Iraq War, and then the regime implemented pronatalist policies. So by the time I got there, 70% of Iran's population was under the age of 25. This is in 2000. Of course, I was also, I was 21. And I'm like, it's amazing. 3 outta every 4 people who pass you on the street is your age. I mean, it's incredible. And yet facing very high levels of unemployment, very disenchanted with the regime, highly educated, but no jobs for them. The regime did not resonate with them. And so the— Mm-hmm. I was in there watching them turn to the realm of the intimate, turn to the realm of sexuality. to negotiate their citizenship. All systems had failed them. Their government had failed them. Their education had failed them. Many of them, family systems had failed them. And so they turned to community, to each other, as a way of negotiating their identity, of figuring out who they were in relationship to this world. And some of it was in and through intimacy, but all of it was through this movement. And I was completely bowled over, fascinated, inspired. I'm like, wow, look at, look at here, people who are finding their way in and through each other. And so I spent the next 7 years, you know, back and forth between New York City and Iran. So I was studying this. It became my dissertation topic, studying sex and sexual politics and how people use their bodies. to speak back to the regime. And so here were young people enacting the sexual revolution. And they really, I mean, it was profound. I mean, we sit here and we're probably like, what do you, you know? For instance, wearing red lipstick was illegal, but they would go out wearing red lipstick even if it meant their lips were getting slashed. It was their resistance. It was a numbers game. They would organize. I talk about Summer of the Cockroaches, one of the summers I was there. Prior to that summer of 2004, if you went outside in public wearing red nail polish or red toe polish, you'd have your hands or toes dipped in cockroaches. And then somebody had this brilliant idea. They were like, well, if we all go out with open-toed shoes and red toenails, there aren't enough cockroaches in all of Iran. So everybody did that. And then after that summer, we were able to wear open-toed shoes. So, I mean, these are things that people are like, Well, you know, who cares? And I'm like, it's significant because America's most elusive enemy is this regime. And look, young people my age are besting this regime. They are cutting it off at its knees by using their bodies to speak back. They're making change much more, you know, effectively than military. So I became really interested in that. 2007. So I, you know, I finished my my PhD, my master's, got a professor job in Los Angeles, went back after I wrote my first book and went back to the University of Tehran where I had been teaching. And I was, you know, in the middle of my lecture and, you know, the auditorium doors banged open. I was pulled off stage. That's a different story. 33 days later, I was kicked out and stripped of my citizenship. Um, after, you know, a whole lot of, uh, a whole lot of, of, of pain. So now here I am.

Stripped of your Iranian, which, which citizenship? Can you clarify?

Yes, I was stripped of my Iranian citizenship and passport, and I was told I could never return. So here I was now, an Iranian without a country and an anthropologist without a field site. like double whammy. So it's like, okay, who am I? Uh, and but of course we don't ever stop, people like us, right? If you're just gonna go forward, you're gonna double down. So it was like, I'm gonna write 2 more books, I'm gonna get tenure, I'm gonna, you know. And so I, I had shifted my field site to Dubai. So then I, you know, got a place in Dubai and I started working on sex, sexual politics, sex work, human trafficking. In Dubai. And, you know, I'd been very involved in policy because it wasn't enough to be a professor. You had to be the best and you had to be, you know, in policy and you had to do all the things. And so I was, I was doing that and writing more and more and more books. And, you know, I got tenure before I was 30. I was full professor. Again, that wasn't enough. You're just constantly succeeding. My personal life, I was having a lot of challenges. You know, my, my first marriage lasted, you know, only a couple years. I, you know, got divorced when, when I was, I mean, we got separated when I was pregnant, got divorced when my daughter was 1 year old. I was a single mom, but I was like, nope, I'm gonna keep going. And, you know, kept succeeding, kept achieving my way out of, out of the dissonance I felt. I still hadn't even processed the trauma of being kicked out from my home country. And then got into a marriage, got into a divorce, became a single mom, you know, again. But yet there, then there was another book, then there was another book, and there was another level of success and fellowships and, you know, White House and, and, you know, foreign policy. And it was just, you just kept going. And then, you know, gradually became a dean, gradually, you know, started moving up those ranks, remarried. But again, I, 'cause I hadn't in, you interrogated the things. I hadn't done the self-excavation. I hadn't gotten to know myself and how I try to outrun my own pain. And then I think I just kept achieving. And then I started looking around. I think, again, maybe it was age, maybe it was exhaustion, maybe it was the fact that everything hit me at once in 2021. I think I could no longer really outrun my My anxiety and depression. I got divorced. I had, you know, was moving from Arizona to Montana. That was when I really hit rock bottom was in 2021. I was like, I don't even know who I am. At the same time, I was watching the education system around me, I mean, in many ways collapse. I mean, students were facing unprecedentedly high levels of mental health challenges. People were having to take out second and third mortgages just to afford college. And the workforce was like, they're not learning what we need them to know. And I started waking up to, oh my gosh, this system is broken. This system is irrevocably broken because it's making people feel horrible. So the system that I've dedicated my life to, I've dedicated my life to something that's actually making not just me feel horrible and inadequate, but but everybody, like generations of people. And oh my gosh, people are waking up to that in this country. So then I started reading and I was like, oh my God, 60% of Americans today, it's 70% of Americans believe college is not a good use of time, let alone money. First time in American history that the generation that's coming will be less educated than their parents. And I was like, it's broken. There's something massive happening here and it's not just me. So that was when I then went back to like, oh my gosh, I have the tools. I studied consciousness. I've studied with shamans all around the world. I had, you know, by this point as a medical anthropologist, I'd lived in, I've lived in 7 countries. You know, I was, I had lived and studied in South Africa, India, Japan, like lived and studied with these sort of grandmasters. I'm like, okay, let's go back into my own consciousness and start to figure out like, What is going on here? And like my own journey started mirroring the journey of so many young people around me. And, and as I unpacked and I excavated, I, you know, I started to be like, oh gosh, there's, there's a lot in here. Now in this time period, I'd also learned my grandmother's story. My, you know, my father's side, my grandmother was a sharpshooter on horseback and she smuggled women from Iran to Afghanistan on horses by getting the horses drunk on homemade whiskey. Those women formed an all-female army that fought the Taliban in Afghanistan. So again, I was like, look at the power of community and look at the power of connected consciousness. It helped me make sense of, you know, and I didn't actually know her story, you know, until less than 10 years ago. And so That discovery helped me realize, okay, I'm not just running with intergenerational trauma, I'm also running with intergenerational strength. So I think discovering my story, starting to realize how many people felt like me, gave me the courage that I needed to step off, step off that treadmill and then start what I do now. Start, you know, and now I run a mystery school, a Sort of a cross between a mystery school mastermind, but it's actually a place called The Bond where we teach people how to be in conscious community and how we teach people how to be in relationships. Because that's been the thing that both has eluded me and also fascinated me. When people get into really tough situations, it's actually their bonds, their relationships. Maybe it's turning to the realm of the intimate. It's full surrender to a collective consciousness. That is what allows people to become the best versions of themselves. So I think it was like going through that journey. I know I threw a lot at you there.

Thank you. What really— there's, there's a lot that you have shared that resonates with me, and where I'm taken to is Something you shared multiple times around— I kept trying to outrun my pain. Paraphrased, I kept doing more, succeeding more, pushing ahead. Okay, this thing happened. It hurts. Push. This other thing happened. Oh, my God. There's multiple things are happening that hurts. Okay, but at least I can push and push and push. And I'm sure this doesn't surprise you, but this is not just the story of you. It's the story of many, many Of us who walk this path of desiring to achieve and create impact in the world and coming up against our own trauma and unresolved pieces, and then kind of being forced to look at it for us to really make the impact we're here to make.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you shared about having this aha moment with the system, but I'm curious about the inner workings of you realizing what were you actually— what did you learn you were actually running away from? And what was that moment where you cracked yourself open? What did that look like for you to even get to the place where you could be offering this mastermind with all of your wisdom and teachings now?

Yeah. Gosh, that's a great question. I'm curious how other people answer it. Like, I'm always curious what takes people. So I'm so curious to like, like we should have some sort of like book about it. Like what, what was that point when all of us—

Listen to all the episodes.

Yeah, I will. I will. You're going to get a good— I'm going to make a documentary.

Or call me. I've got a, I've got a living library.

Please. That's. Such a gift to the world is anytime you feel like you're not alone, I think. Um, so you asked, okay, what was I running from? Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

I think I was running from me. Yeah, I was running from me because— so of course it's not, it's not me, it's the story of me that I've created to, to, to navigate and allow myself to be in this world. It's the the version of me that I've put out there. And the more that I tried to people-please, I don't know if that resonates with you, this like, well, if I just please everybody, the less I recognize myself. And the more I tried to be what I thought everybody wanted me to be, the less I could find myself. And So I, I had this moment, and so, like, this is so fascinating that, I mean, we're having this conversation because this is obviously what you do. I had this moment in 2021 where I was like, I don't actually know the real story of me. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't actually know. I know the story I've crafted to perform. But I don't know the real story of me. And yet I've written all these books about other people. I've written other people's stories. I've chronicled my family's story. I've chronicled all these things because writing is how I make sense of the world. For you, it's talking to people and pulling their stories out. It's how you make sense of the world. I make sense of the world by writing. I write every single day. I write, writing and riding. So I write and I ride horses. Like, That's how I make sense of the world. And so I kept writing books and I realized, oh my gosh, I'm writing about things that I don't understand and trying to lose myself in other people's stories and trying to understand how other people make it work or don't through either relationships or bondage or— Sexuality or sub— superconscious or psychedelics or whatever, whatever it is. I was sort of losing myself there, but I didn't know who I was. I had this like really intense realization. This sounds so trite, but I'm like, I don't even know how I like my eggs. So I like went through this whole thing where I like made eggs 8 different kind of ways one morning and like put the plates all out in front of me. Because I was like, I've made up so many stories of me. I don't even know how I like my eggs. So I was like, well, that seems like a good place to start. How do I like my eggs? How do you like your eggs? Hard-boiled.

Oh. Oh. That's, that's so much.

I know. Portable. It's portable. I was like, that's interesting. I like the taste. I was like, don't like 'em runny. Like, that doesn't taste good to me. You know, but it's, it sounds so basic, but down to that level, I didn't know, I didn't know me. And so here I was teaching people about relationships when I wasn't even in a good relationship with myself. So yeah, I think what cracked me open was, you know, I met, I met and started working with a shaman and started dancing with the things that I had studied a long time ago that had fascinated me, but I started dancing with this other realm and this other approach and realized, first of all, there's an absolute intersection between sex, psychedelics, and consciousness, but also realizing that these are the best, absolute best vehicles we have to turn inwards. And Until and unless we start to get a handle on our inner state, nothing in our external state is ever gonna make sense. Like, until we stop the suffering inside, you will never be able to outrun, or you can never be able to run enough to outrun your pain.

Hmm.

And I realized that I had spent all my life focusing on the external. world, and what I needed to be doing was paying attention to the inner world. And that was a huge eye-opener for me.

Thank you. So practically speaking, you know, it's what you're sharing around focusing on the inner world, and because that is the real shift and change. This is, you know, paraphrased a million and one ways. It's what the The enlightened, our enlightened masters have been telling us for eons.

Yeah.

I'm curious about you, Pardis, the human. What did it look like, practically speaking, for you to make that shift within yourself?

I think for me, I, I had to really significantly change my life. And first of all, I think one of the things about academia is you're trained to critique rather than being curiosity. So that was the first shift. Get curious rather than critical. You're trained in duality. You're trained good, bad. This is good. This is bad. This is, as opposed to, this is. Stop labeling everything. You're trained to judge. And you're also, as a young person, I was also trained to judge because judgment was how I could get safe. It was like, Okay. Friend or foe? Are you gonna attack me? Are you not? But judgment is one of the biggest walls and barriers that we create to feeling that oneness, that collective consciousness. As long as we're in judgment, judgment and mirroring, those are the 2 big walls that we have to punch through if we ever wanna get to know ourselves and how we relate to the world around us. So I had to drop the criticism. I had to drop judgment, including judgment of myself and judging myself through other people's eyes. That was my biggest one, was like, I judged me by how you are responding to me. I used to do that. Like, it was like, so that was exhausting. I mean, I just was like, I'm not doing that anymore. And when you— when I dropped critique and I went into curiosity, I started realizing Wow, there's a lot of people who are in a lot of pain because of that approach. And we gotta stop doing that. We gotta stop teaching young people all the ways in which they have to be in division, in competition, in disconnection. I mean, all the things, 'cause it's not working. We're raising up generations who are in more and more pain, just like I was. So You know, I, I had to really shift that mindset and then I had to really start asking myself some hard questions. Like every single thing that I said and did, I was like, why are you saying that? Why are you doing that? I mean, it was like the mirror had been so close to me, I had to literally like pull it back. I had to like pull it 6 inches back to be like, first, like, let me see and then let me get curious about why I'm doing what I'm doing. So that I could keep coming back to my, to my center. I mean, it wasn't, I mean, there was like a good, I would say I was in the, you know, spin cycles in the washing machine for a good 2 or 3 years. And it wasn't until I finally stepped down and stepped out of the academy a year ago that then I could be like, oh, okay. This is the washing machine. Like, I'm out. Now let's look inside again and figure out without all the thing, without all the titles, without all of the accolades and accomplishments, who am I? And that's kind of been, you know, that dedication to finding my center and my anchor has really been a huge part of this process.

Beautiful. Thank you. And you know what, when you speak into This washing machine process. Can you define what you mean when you say that? And what was the difference between washing and washing and washing again and washing again and washing again and actually being able to catch a break and find stability in your life? What did that look like for you?

I think the washing machine— first of all, I recognized I'd been in it a lot longer than I thought. And then I would sort of pop my head out and be like, whoa, there's like this whole other world out there to discover and explore. And then I, and then I also realized that I had people in my life who didn't even know the washing machine existed and had no sense of interiority and didn't wanna even go there. So, you know, what did that look like? I got divorced because I was in a relationship with somebody that— Didn't really like wanna go there. That sense of interiority. I had to start flipping how I approached all the relationships in my life. We're, we're taught to approach relationships very vertically as opposed to horizontally. So I'd been taught, you know, power relationships, et cetera. I really, I have 3 kids. I started relating to my kids really differently. I started like, I would pop my head out and be like, wait a minute. Mm-hmm. I'm parenting either the way I wanted to be, wished I had been parented as a kid, or the way that I was parented, as opposed to asking them how they wanna be parented. Like, I just have to reframe all that. But practically speaking, I was still like in it where I was still in these leadership positions and I, I, I felt like I was almost living 2 lives, like the public version of me where I was like, Yes, this is what we're doing. And yes, we're bringing in more students, we're starting new degree programs. But then the inner version of me, which was like, holy cow, I'm hurting so much. I feel my pain. I see all the things I've been trying to outrun. I feel it. It was like night after night of dark night of the soul. I think I cried for like 18 months straight. Wow. Like I literally cried every night for a good year and a half. Like literally, I would come home from work, make sure I had everything done, the kids, you know, and at the time I was living with one of my kids and the other 2 were in a different state. And I was started looking at my life like, how did I get here? Like I'm not even living in the same state as my children. And, you know, I would just hold it together long enough and then by 8:00 PM I would just let myself fall apart. Because I was realizing that I'd become a workaholic. Work had been one addiction. Love had been another addiction. I had like love addiction, you know, that I was like living through all these addictions that we don't really talk about. And so I finally realized like, until and unless I step out of all of that, I'm gonna stay in the spin cycle. Mm-hmm.

And then you stepped out.

And then I stepped out.

And then you stepped out. So that's— I'd love to hear about that because we know that on the other end of that stepping out was— is you creating this community that's really based on relationships and conscious community. And I'm curious about when you stepped out, What patterns of truth are you now able to see with clarity that you once couldn't? And how did that lead you to being on the mission that you're on today?

It's a great question. Well, I stepped into the abyss, and it was so frightening. It was the scariest thing I've ever done in my life. People are like, oh, my gosh, you're so brave. Like, you've, you know, I've ridden horses into gun battles. You know, I've, you know, Afghanistan, Turkey, Iran. I've had interfaces with Iran's morality police. You know, I've been through a lot of things, and the hardest thing I ever did was step off the Amstel. That was actually the scariest thing I've ever done. I had no idea what I was going to do. All I knew was I couldn't keep living that way. And I had no idea where I was gonna live. I didn't know what I was going to do. So, you know, I had, I was like, well, my kids are in Arizona. I guess we're going to Arizona. So I left California, moved to Arizona. I remember I was, I was moving, I was moving into my house in Arizona and, uh, my middle child, my middle son, he was 11 at the time and I was trying to, you know, hang a piece of art on the wall. And it was like 8 o'clock at night and it was my 11-year-old and I were trying to hang it on the wall and it keeps, it keeps falling 'cause it's too heavy for his little hands, you know? And so finally it, it, it actually falls and thank God it didn't hurt him or me, but it falls. And I had this moment where I was like, how is it that I'm 45 years old? And I don't have a single person I can call at 8:00 PM to come and help me hang this. And of course I do, I have friends, et cetera, but I felt this huge, huge sense of loneliness and stagnation. Mm-hmm. And I realized that, you know, okay, I had been in this spin cycle and I'd been on this personal journey, but your personal journey hits a ceiling when you're not in community. And community is a force multiplier.

Yeah.

Because when you come together to share your collective stories and your collective pain, and you're finally seen and heard, that's when you form these really meaningful bonds. And actually, that's really what it's about, is, is, is learning to bond and learning to be vulnerable and ask for help. And so I just remember that night, I'm like, we, this can't be, it, it can't be that we're at this place where these things happen. And I shared what had happened with some friends and they're like, people were sharing that version. You know, I had this one friend and he's like, that happened to me with the TV. Like I was trying to hang my TV. I didn't have anyone I could call. I was like, you have a free pass. You can call me anytime. You know? And it's so, it, and then I, I kind of had to step back from my life to realize that I'd been relentlessly pursuing new ways of knowing and Relentlessly pursuing relationships and the power of relationships with the self and with the community. Like, all that was— that had been the theme across all these books I'd written. And I turned— I'd turned to— I've now been writing fiction, and I'd started writing this fiction novel. And it was— at first, I, you know, when my agent's like, what's it about? I'm like, well, it's on, you know, 3 people who are on these spirit quests and they're trying to find themselves. And I was like, nah. By rewrite number 12, I was like, no, it's actually about relationships. And I realized everything was about relationships. And, uh, and that was what had been missing from all the systems that I had been trying to work inside of. So I basically create— was— decided I was gonna create the thing that I most wanted in the world. And, uh, and then I took that to my writing and I, I was like, okay, what's the thing that scares me most? What is the thing that I fear most about people learning about me? And let's put that on the page. So I kind of flipped everything.

What is it?

That I find relationships really, really difficult.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, people think I'm, you know, because I teach about them, I Help people. And I actually do. I help people get into great relationships and great relationships with their kids. And I actually feel like I'm very good at parenting now, not before. But, you know, being in intimate relationships is very difficult. I feel that now, if you had asked me 2 years ago if I would date me, I wouldn't have dated me 2 years ago. I would date me today. But man, did I go through hell to get here.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah. You know, we were, we were making a little, I forget if we were on record or before record when you were joking about how you'd rather have this interview than your, your TED Talks.

Yeah.

And I don't know if you know this about me, but I, my, my TEDx talk was, it's called An Unconventional Approach to Human Connection. So it's, I really deeply resonate with what you're saying. And that desire, that deep, deep yearning to understand and innerstand the beauty and art of relationship and how to move through it harmonically.

Yeah. I got to watch your TED Talk.

Yeah, yeah, same.

Well, would you say that your TED Talk reveals the real you?

Yes and no. Yeah, it was the best that I could do at that level of performance that I was operating in at that time.

Yeah,

it was the most of me that I could bring to the table with what I knew at the time. And I think it's easy to look back at it now and be like, oh, I could have done that better. I wasn't being authentic, or I was being performative here. But the truth of the matter is, I didn't know how to let go of the mask. But what I was saying is still the truth of what I meant. I love that today.

I love that. Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that. I love that. I mean, the same with me. You know what I was saying was the truth. I mean, it was what I had discovered. It was what I had learned. It was all the things, and yet it was still the math. Yeah. So yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Yeah.

Mirror, mirror, how do we do that? Beautiful. Well, Pardis, you share that now your focus is really creating conscious community, and I'd love for you to share what legacy are you most committed now of leaving in the world and beyond just your work, but in how you live, show up?

Yeah, I'm trying to show up really authentically in the world. I'm trying to You know, even as I'm talking to you, I'm like, look, I'm just gonna answer her questions like honestly, as opposed to be like, okay, well, what would she want to hear? Or what would the listeners want to hear? It's like, I don't wanna do that anymore. I did that for decades and I don't wanna be that way anymore. I'm trying to show up authentically. And so I think what I want is to lead by example and hope that if I continue showing up authentically in the world, That more and more people will drop the masks and be authentic. And I think some of that is actually must be working because I feel like I've called into my life, called into my life, you know, just the fact that we're having this conversation, such an honest conversation, Céline, with you. I think about the legendary tribe. It's the most authentic people, you know, I feel like, and a group of us recently gathered in San Diego 2 nights ago. And, or 3 nights ago, it was Saturday. It was the day that, you know, Trump attacked Iran and there was a gathering of, you know, a bunch of the folks from the Legendary Tribe as well as this other beautiful, beautiful community here in San Diego. I'm in San Diego now. I'm, you know, visiting my parents. I'm also escaping the Arizona heat. But, you know, it was devastating. I was on my way to the gathering when the news of Trump attacking Iran hit and And I started getting calls and requests for interviews, which I did. And I thought, oh gosh, should I just go home? And, you know, I'm not, probably not in a space to gather. And I was like, no, this is the perfect place to be. And I walked in and I only knew probably a third of the people there, but it was like everybody was like, how are you? You know, they, they asked, there wasn't, there wasn't this need to perform pleasantries like, hey, good to see you. Good. No, it was like. How are you? Are you okay? I see your face. You don't look like you're okay. And I'm like, Trump just attacked Iran. And some people knew and some people didn't. And people who didn't were like, oh my gosh. And then the community came together and we said some words and we spoke calls for peace and we said some prayers and we really set intention for sending some healing to Iran, to the Middle East. As a community. And that felt so good. It just felt like such a gift. So I feel like somehow, some way, me showing up as the authentic me is calling in people who are authentic and calling in a community that's dedicated to living an elevated consciousness life, a better version of themselves. And I just think if more and more of us can wake up and be intentional about living in a beautiful state, not a suffering state, right? My teachers in India say there's only 2 inner states, a suffering state and a beautiful state. And if you can be committed and set the intention to wanting to live in a beautiful state and spreading that beautiful state, that's such a gift that we can give to humanity. So more so than my writings or whatever I do, I think that just showing up and holding that commitment. And helping to build community around that commitment, I think, is like the greatest thing.

I love it. As an only child who grew up as an immigrant in multinational countries, it's very soothing for my soul. And I feel that as well, this need to— and this is what we get to experience as well with the Legendary Tribe, just this ability to be able to lean on each other and support each other. You know, even the other day I was having like a little bit of a meltdown. I was like, oh, what am I gonna do? I'm, I'm so screwed. I don't, like, I'm, I don't know how to, what to do about this. And I was like, wait a minute, hold on, stop. I, I have, like, metaphorically speaking, I've got a lot of people I can call to put the, the thing up on my wall.

Yeah.

People will do it. There's people that will come over and we'll put the nail in and the thing and write it. And I think it's like the importance of Number one, being that community, but then also remembering and recognizing that we do have each other. Right. And that's such important medicine.

Beautiful. Community is the best medicine. I love that.

100%. And, you know, there's something you said earlier in this conversation that I can't get out of my head, so I'm just going to bring it through now, which is you said you spoke into the intersection of sex psychedelics and consciousness and how they're all like perfectly connected to each other. And I'm like, my little ears perked up. I'd like to know more, please.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's, that's kind of what my discipline, medical anthropology, is really about, right? Is like, how do people and how have people across cultures and, and time for thousands of years, how have people connected Their bodies, their minds, their souls, their hearts. Like, how have people rooted in and like gotten in there and done some of the, you know, everything that we're talking about today is like self-excavation and self-actualization so that, you know, you can become that sort of go into that oneness with your community, right? And your, your community's a force multiplier, but, you know, you gotta heal that relationship with yourself so that you can show up in that authentic way. And I think To your point, now you have people you can call and who will help rise up that painting. So do I now. But part of the reason I didn't before is because I didn't love myself enough to even ask. I didn't even want people to see, oh my gosh, she can't put an art piece on her wall. I didn't want people to see that. So part of that is yourself. Now, thousands of years, people have been figuring out how to connect with themselves and then connect with other people in the world around them for thousands of years. If you go back, what is the one thing that people have been doing? What's the one thing that all the cultures— so I've of course studied Persian culture, I've studied and how people connect and access their consciousness, realize who they are and connect in. I've studied this in India, in Japan, in Latin America. There are certain themes that come up over and over and over. Right. When you look at the rituals and the practices, how people view and engage with sex, psychedelics, and the conscious, superconscious, sex, psychedelics, and the superconscious, how they engage with that. First of all, there's a lot of commonalities. So we talk about ayahuasca, for instance, it's becoming a very, that's big. And we talk about know, obviously it's rooted right now in Latin America and, you know, Peru, and there's this long history. Guess what? There are records of 3,000 years ago, people in Persia drinking ayahuasca. It was just called suma. You know, you've got things like that that date all the way back. I've studied in India at the Khajuraho temples, which are all, you know, these ancient, ancient temples. When you look at them, they're just carved different sexual positions. People across cultures have been using sex, the body, psychedelics, and consciousness activating, let's call them mystic technologies like meditation, whirling. You know, I'm a Sufi, so whirling, whirling dervishes. People have been using all of these as a way of finding themselves, locating themselves, if you will, and then connecting in. to a collective consciousness for thousands of years. Those are the intersections, and they, all of them kind of get you into this heightened state of connection with self, source, and your community. All of these are ways of tapping into this other realm and plane of consciousness. So psychedelics, sex, and mystic technologies. They all kind of elevate you to this realm of consciousness where you can start to root around and figure out, like, where am I located? How do I connect with people around me? And when you look across cultures or when you look across history, it's when people have woken up to that power and then the collectivity of that power that the most significant changes in history have taken place. And we're seeing it even in our lifetimes. The fact that young people created a movement in Tehran, actualizing themselves, often accessing these consciousness levels through sex or other rituals, they created a movement and the movement was able to destabilize a regime that even the United States military couldn't. Like, it is, there is something there. And when you look across history, you know, there's examples of the sexual revolution In, you know, the Czech Republic and in Weimar Germany, you have instances of, you know, revolutions, cultural revolutions that have been spurred by, you know, psychedelics and consciousness medicine and have actually brought about regime change. I mean, some of the most significant transformations in history and throughout the world have come from people accessing this other state of consciousness. And that's what I've been studying.

Beautiful. And that has got me very excited and curious to learn more. Well, it is.

It's a rabbit hole, man. It is. I know.

I can totally go down this rabbit hole and probably could for another hour because I've got so many more questions here. But I am conscious of time and our time together today. And so I will say to anyone who's listening, it's like, but I want more. Well, This is great because then you can just go talk to Pardis. Now you know, now you've got a really solid jumping point, myself included. Beautiful.

Don't follow me.

What a fascinating story. Thank you so much, Pardis. This is, it was really, really such a pleasure to get to know you in, in this way, like in real time. And, you know, I, as we begin to complete today's conversation, I'd love to ask you a question that I ask everyone on the show, and don't even think twice about it, just whatever comes through to you. Okay, ready?

Okay.

What does legendary mean to you?

Community. Community, collective consciousness.

Tell me more.

Yeah, it means so much more than Burning Man. Like, you Yes, Burning Man is one week, but what it means to me is a group of people that I can call when I need to hang up the TV or the art piece. Even if they're not physically there, I can call them and be like, this is hilarious. I just dropped this painting. Like, instead of sitting and crying by myself, that there are people I can call or message and be like, man, I just had this— epic experience, like, I want to talk about it with somebody. And have you ever gone through that? Have you ever done that? Or, I'm hurting, I'm hurting, and I need to be seen because I can't see myself right now. I'm— I can't, you know, that's sometimes the mirror comes back and it is too close. And you literally, like— I remember I had this favorite magician, and he's like, I can't be a magician without an audience. I can't do magic tricks in front of a mirror. It's not, you know, and just like a magician can't be a magician without an audience, this exploration of self can't happen alone. It happens as you relate to other people. We are who we are through intersubjective relationships. With people, places, and things. The relationship I have with Legendary, I feel like, helps me feel safe enough to keep pulling those demons out and knowing that there's a group of people that'll catch me almost like a magic carpet when it gets to be sometimes too much. They'll just hold that space for me.

That's a beautiful reminder for all of us. Anyone who's listening, yeah, just know that,

yeah,

that if you're going through something like that, you are held. And let that be your sign to reach out.

100%. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a strong community and it goes far beyond that one week that we're together in August. It's, you know, I think Gerald and Maya Rose have done an amazing job. I think everybody who commits to this community It is a force multiplier. I mean, I just think about all of the great things that just being in this community have brought into my life and have put out into the world. It also helps me remember to show up for others too. So

yeah. Beautiful. Well, we'll let that one sizzle. So, Pardis, thank you. Your story was so beautiful, such a transmission. Thank you for joining us tonight.

Thanks for having me. It was really great. You do a great job. You're wonderful. I can see why this is your superpower.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Yeah.

All right, so, legendaries, this has been Celine DaCosta on the Legendary Podcast, and we will see you in the next enthralling conversation.