Pardis Mahdavi on Driving Innovation in Higher Ed

Welcome to Workforces. I'm Julian Alcid.

And I'm Kaitlyn Lemoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Workforces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

It feels like the last few weeks have been a whirlwind of activity between the kickoff of a new academic year, coupled with our own rebranding, Caitlin.

Oh, I know it, Julian. There's been so much activity, and it's exciting to see our podcast and consulting efforts now housed under the Workforces umbrella. There are so many overlapping themes across our podcast discussions and consulting work that it really just feels right to have everything live in one place. One theme that has emerged over time, and really it's come up time and again, is how higher education keeps pace and remains agile in a fast-moving, ever-changing economic landscape. So I'm looking forward to our discussion today to dig deeper on this topic.

I'm thrilled to return to the topic of higher ed. And today we have a higher ed leader who is at the forefront of innovation. Pardis Mahdavi is a professor of anthropology at the University of La Verne. Prior to this role, she served as president at the University of La Verne, provost and executive vice president at the University of Montana, as well as dean at Arizona State University and the University of Denver after serving in multiple roles at Pomona College. Her research interests include gendered labor, human trafficking, migration, human rights, and public health. In the, in the context of changing global and political structures. And she's a widely published author. Pardis is a lifetime member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Young Presidents Organization and has been a fellow at the Social Sciences Research Council, the American Council on Learned Societies, Google Ideas, and the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. She also serves as a board member for the Lumina Foundation, our sponsor, and the Human Trafficking Legal Center. Welcome to Workforces, Pardis.

Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I am thrilled and honored to be here today.

Well, we're thrilled you could join us. And so as we get started today, Pardis, we'd love to learn more about your background and the story of your career path in higher education.

You know, interestingly enough, my story actually starts when I was a pretty young girl. I'm Iranian American, as my name suggests, and my parents came here during the revolution. I was initially born— I'm a child of the revolution, so maybe I'm dating myself, but I was born here. My parents, you know, they came here during the revolution, so I was born here in Minnesota. And we lived in Minnesota until I was about 6 years old. And one day I came home from school And there was a sign posted in front of my house, and it said, "Burn this house! Terrorists live here," which of course my Iranian American mind, my six-year-old mind, could not get my head around. I thought, you know, my dad is a doctor, my mom is a health provider. We are, you know, and but it was this was you know Minnesota, you know during Iran, you know Iran-Contra, Iran hostage crisis, and so really growing up at a time of antipathy towards Iranians right in this country. And so my father made the very difficult decision to. Pack everything up once again and move from Minnesota to California. But my father said something to me in that move, and that's really what drives me, you know, in higher ed. He said, you know, Pardis, people can take everything from you. They could take your belongings, they can take your home, they can even take your country. But the one thing nobody can ever take from you is your education. And that's really what drove me to understand the value of access to education, because no matter where you go, it was having that education that always opened up doors and opportunities. And, you know, for an immigrant family to be able to do all the things that we were able to do, it was education that allowed us to do that. And so that really propelled me to want to be, you know, part of making sure that everybody can access what can never be taken away from them. So that was really sort of my journey into higher education. School became my job. And I really, you know, it propelled me to becoming a leader in higher education because I saw the value, the power, and the importance of being able to access higher education. I also understood the role of education in upholding and supporting democracy. Coming from a place like Iran, I actually went back between 2000 and 2007. I taught there and really felt the weight of trying to be a part of higher ed in a place which is so heavily regulated, I thought, gosh, you know, there's so much we take for granted in this country. And the power of American higher education in upholding democracy is one that we can't lose. And so, you know, over my career trajectory, I watched as the perception of higher education for Americans has gone down. You know, as we sit here today, more than half of Americans believe college is not a good use of time. And, you know, we're facing the possibility that for the first time in American history, the generation that's coming up, my kids' generation, will be less educated than the generations that came before it. That is not a trend that we're bucking in the right direction. That to me is a national security crisis. It's a crisis of democracy that keeps me up at night. And so really what I've always wanted to do is figure out ways of making higher education better and being able to both meet the needs of students and meet the needs of the democracy, which, you know, of which workforce is a huge part of all of that.

So in your journey in higher ed, in addition to, you know, per your very impressive resume, you've worked with many different kinds of higher ed institutions. And I guess I'm really interested in understanding, you know, kind of your take on the state of higher ed with respect to that national security and democracy and workforce development issue, and then segue to really what is the problem that you are now looking to solve for as you've stepped away from higher ed?

Yeah,

or being a higher ed president.

Yeah, no, you know, I think that's a great question. I think for a long time you know, we, the conversation in higher ed was about access, right? It was, how can we get as many people to be able to access as possible? And then we talked a lot about attainment. How can we make sure people are finishing, that they're not stopping out, you know? And now we're talking a lot about narrating the importance and the value of higher education. And I think one of the things I've observed, and as you mentioned, I've been at, you know, top 10 small liberal arts college. I've been at America's largest university, ASU. I've been at the land grant Montana. I was president of a Hispanic-serving institution, private, in Los Angeles. And one of the common themes I see is that there is this absolute disconnect between what students are demanding from the higher education experience, right? So you've got students saying, hey, you know, we want to be trained with, you know, technologically enhanced learning. Coming out of the pandemic, we see students are more risk-averse than ever before. We see that lecture is dead, no more chalk and talk, and we see students asking for engaged and experiential learning, very clearly asking for these things and saying, help us connect the dots, help us to develop, you know, we're working so hard developing that pipeline from K-12 into college. Now we've got to help develop that pipeline connecting those dots from college to career, right? What does that look like? And how do you start to render that legible? Not to say that there isn't a role for liberal arts, but it's a larger picture. And students are asking for, you know, legibility. They're asking for curricula that are— have both horizontality and verticality to it. They're very clear on what they're asking for. And on the other end, workforce is very clear on what they're asking for, right? They're asking for students who are able to be critical thinkers, problem solvers, effective communicators, having certain skills. And yet, you've got kind of higher ed sitting right here, not necessarily making the changes or being responsive to the needs of, you know, and again, we wouldn't ever narrate students as customers, but to the needs of the people who we're trying to serve. We're trying to serve students and we're trying to serve the democracy. And so the question is, how can we best do that? We've seen in the last decade or more the emergence of edtech as a field, right? Educational technologies, technologically enhanced learning, things like virtual reality. We know that they are incredibly effective for learning outcomes, right? I think about You know, at Arizona State, Dreamscape Learn is a VR modality that was deployed for gen ed classes like Biology 101. And the results were staggering. Students were retaining much more of the material. Students who were neurodivergent or from diverse backgrounds, English as a second language, they were all doing much better. So the data are clear that technologically enhanced learning modalities both help meet students' needs and also help students develop a skill set that they can translate to workforce. And yet higher ed is sort of sitting here in this moment of, oh my gosh, there's these different needs being articulated. There's a whole slew of possible solutions. And I think that what's happening is that it's becoming increasingly difficult for us in higher ed to have the conversations that we need to have because it's become so politicized. become so fractured. And we've lost the focus on service and on serving our role. And we've lost that mission focus of sort of serving students and serving the democracy.

Yeah, we are in the middle of a very complex landscape. And I'm curious to hear more about your thoughts about what are the ways forward, right? Like, at a time of So many competing, I wouldn't say priorities, but competing needs or maybe different levers that are being pulled. And how do we serve both the needs of students and the needs of industry and make sure higher ed is fulfilling its mission? And higher ed, of course, very broadly defined, right? It looks very different in different places. 100%. But what do you see as some ways forward in this conundrum? Complex space.

And again, you know, you don't want to say something is a magic bullet, let alone do you want to say technology is a silver bullet that's going to solve everything.

Right.

But I do think that, you know, in higher ed, we're in this, we're finally starting to feel the very real tensions between an ecosystem that has, even though you have the protections of tenure, has been a bit risk-averse. Right. And I think, I think one of the reasons that Arizona State has been so successful in innovation is that there is a very high tolerance for failure. There's a high— there's an ecosystem where there's a high tolerance for failure so that experimentation is kind of, you know, sort of the coin of the realm. Right. Experimenting because, you know, high fidelity. I always talk about myself as when I was a president, I had high tolerance for failure, high fidelity to data. You know, you do your homework and then you start to experiment. And, you know, we're in this moment where there has been a flourishing of edtech. There has been a flourishing of technologies like, I mean, just at the very basic level, ChatGPT, right? And, you know, learning how to teach with these technologies really requires us to have some hard conversations about what is the infrastructure that's necessary in higher ed to create a sustainable architecture where technology can enhance learning and allow us to meet the needs of students and employers. And so that's what I'm doing now. My colleagues and I, you know, we've started our own consulting project, EES Associates. And what we're trying to do is actually help leaders in higher education figure out first, what are the technologies that, as you mentioned, Caitlin, you know, universities are different. It's not a one-size-fits-all, right? And so something that's gonna work for Arizona State, you know, something like Dreamscape Learn, which is, you know, scalable, big, you know, that's gonna meet that population of over 100,000 students, is not gonna fit for Pomona College, right? Which has less than 2,000 students. But that's not to say that Pomona College can't benefit from technologically enhanced learning, right? And so actually places like Pomona are great places to have those conversations about technologies like ChatGPT. And what are the ethics? How do we think about it? How can we study it and then use it as a problem solve? Other people have used this analogy, sort of like when the calculator was invented. At first, math teachers were like, how are we ever going to teach math? And now, of course, we can't imagine teaching math without calculators. Someday we won't be able to imagine teaching many subjects without ChatGPT, but we still have to learn and harness. You know, there is a place for different institutions to plug in. And so what we do is we try to figure out, okay, what's the best technology to meet your needs? And also, what is your unique skill set as a college or a university or a tech group? What is your unique skill set where you can serve this larger mission of kind of cracking this code of what do we do to continue to make higher education Relevant for workforce, relevant for student needs, ultimately relevant for social mobility, right? Because social mobility is, is really what all of this is about. So we help match what the right technologies are with the right institutions. And then I think even more importantly, we help to make those technologies sustainable because sitting in the seats that I've sat in— dean, provost, president— we all know that sometimes we go with a one-off and we spend lots of money and say, okay, we're going to use this software, or we're going to use this, and this is going to be our magic bullet. But we don't make it sustainable. We don't make it a sustainable part of our ecosystem. And so it just becomes an add-on, or it just becomes something that is a point of frustration, either for the leadership or for the faculty who are like, how am I— because we don't build the ecosystem to support it. So for example, we say, This, the pandemic was a great example. We're like, okay, everybody has to now teach online. Now, the institutions that succeeded at that were the institutions, again, like ASU, that had an infrastructure that said, look, teaching online isn't just about turning your camera on. There is an art to it. And we have a team of instructional designers who are going to help you, right? We have a team of people who have this expertise and we're gonna leverage that. So I think, you know, we're at this moment now where we can, where we have technologies. It's really about building that bridge and figuring out how to harmonize what higher ed does really well with what edtech does well. And then figuring out what the sweet spot is to serve the needs of students and the democracy, broadly speaking, workforce being one component of that.

Yeah, it's very exciting, Pardis, and for sure the technology does offer all these new tools that we've never had before to make these connections and, you know, really begin to bring the people what they're clamoring for. I guess I'm interested to hear a little bit about, well, I love that you're thinking about your practice in terms of, you know, kind of focusing on, you know, the superpowers of each of your partner institutions. Who can drive this? I mean, you were talking about presidents, provosts. I mean, where would you begin? I mean, obviously coming in as a senior leader, I guess, is the top, but I'm interested to hear you riff on that a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, and thanks for allowing me to kind of think into that with you. You know, I think one of the pitfalls that often happens is that these initiatives and efforts are often driven by the IT office. Right. The tech office, you know, or offices outside of academic affairs. And so then it's just seen as a, well, that's an IT issue. That's not us. Or, you know, how do we fit it in? And I think where you see the most success is when it's both top-down and bottom-up. Right. And I think it's where you see the most success is where you have leadership that says, yes, I want to innovate. Right. I want to do this. And I want the buy-in, you know, from all parts of the house, because if it just becomes one more thing that, you know, a provost has to make the faculty do, I mean, that's not going to work. And if it's just one more thing we pile on the plate of a faculty, you know, I was that faculty member at one point, you know, when I was at Pomona. At one point, I was chairing 2 departments, teaching a full load, directing an institute, and I had, you know, 3 young kids at the time. I mean, it just was not sustainable, right? So you can't— and so I think about, you know, the 2016 version of me, of Pardis, and I think if my dean or president was like, okay, well, now you have to teach with this technology. I mean, I would have just exploded, right? Or imploded. But if my dean or my president had come to me and said, you know, we have this offering, we have this team of instructional designers, And actually, you know, for me, the biggest kind of aha moment for me was having gone from being at Pomona where there was zero online teaching and I couldn't, I was like, oh my God, that's a huge lift, to then actually teaching online at ASU. I suddenly realized, oh my gosh, so much of my time was freed up. I remember I had this semester where I was fully teaching online, right? And, you know, you can be anywhere in the world. So, and, you know, my PhD is in anthropology. I suddenly realized, I could be doing fieldwork. Like, it actually opened up time, you know? And I could be grading, you know, at 10 o'clock at night when my kids went to sleep, or I could be recording. I remember I was recording a lecture at like 11 PM when my kids went to sleep. It meant that I could be home with them during the day. You know, it actually opened up more time and possibility, but no one had narrated it to me like that before, you know, when I was at Pomona. And importantly, No one had given me the resources, the scaffolding to support that. Right. So I was suddenly much more open to it because it was supported and it was somebody sat with me and walked me through it. And it actually opened up more time for me. And that was such an aha moment because for 11 years, I'd been a faculty member at a small liberal arts college thinking, holy moly, absolutely not. I could never teach online. That seems like totally out of the realm of possibility. That's just one more thing. And then when I did flip to teaching online, I thought, this is magic. I suddenly have so much more time, right? And it was just kind of getting over that hump. But I think what you can't, as a provost, what I could not expect my faculty, that's, you know, I put on my provost hat at Montana. As a provost, I could not, I could not in good faith go to my faculty and say, okay, now you all have to teach online without saying, Right. here are all the ways we're going to support you. Here's the scaffolding. I think, You just have to approach it with intentionality.

Well, right. And I, my brain is going in a lot of directions right now, but, you know, I think you're, you're saying so many things that are prompting different thoughts, but I think, you know, one thing that just sticks out to me is, you know, it's like with education, with, with edtech, there are, there's so much opportunity, but it's also like, what's the unique problem we're trying to solve? Right. And making sure that the technology that you're bringing in is solving the challenge that your students are facing or that your institution is facing or that your faculty are facing, because otherwise it can feel instead of, you know, like an opportunity, as you're saying, it can, it can feel like a burden or an additional, you know, barrier.

Right. Right. And I think at that macro level, I think the problem we're trying to solve is articulating and narrating the value of what we're doing. And I think is, is also, you know, being what education is, which is the great equalizer. And I think now that we know the power of technology, in leveling the playing field, right?

Yeah.

You know, it's almost unconscionable for us to not use it. Like, if there is something that starts to close equity gaps, why would we stratify them by only allowing certain people and certain institutions access to a technology that we know can enhance learning for, let's say, traditionally underrepresented or, you know, historically excluded populations. It's unconscionable for us to turn a blind eye to that.

Yeah, it sure is. So you're, you're touching on so many critical aspects of what it takes to do this work. And I'm interested to hear, Pardis, based on your lessons learned, what are practical steps our audience can take to become forces in the future of higher ed?

I think a lot of it is, is that kind of deep listening and, and, you know, we all know it's out there, right? And I think, I think that there is sometimes in some cases been a bit of a stigma from, you know, it's, I'm happy to hear that we talk about workforce development, right? I mean, we've discussed this, but it used to be on the fringes and it used to be like, if you talk about workforce in a higher ed setting, I mean, that's it, you know, you're out of the club, you know, you're canceled, you're out of the club. And yet, you know, that's, if you think about, again, the mission of higher ed, why higher ed was started, that's such a critical part of it. So, you know, I think that deep listening to, to what are the demands of workforce, of the democracy, and what are the demands of students? So if we go back to that technology piece, you know, workforce is saying we want students that are fluent in different types of technology. So not only does technology become an equalizing modality of teaching, but it becomes an equalizing currency, if you will, so that students graduate with a, with a skill set that's very much in demand for our society and for our workforce. So back to your very, very good question, Julian, of like what can be done. I think it's really building those bridges. So building, you know, and I know that that's a lot of the work you all are doing is building the bridges between higher ed and workforce. And I'm trying to build the bridge between, you know, students' demands and higher ed, as well as the bridge between between, you know, you've got all these technological solutions and higher ed, right? Where it's like, this doesn't have to be so hard. You know, there are ways to actually make things easier. And, you know, rather than sitting there and doing, you know, long division by hand, let's start using some calculators here, you know? And, you know, figuring out how we can prepare students to meet the needs for workforce, but also how we can meet students' needs, you know, how we can actually capture their attention, you know, and engage them, I would say. I think that deep listening to what the demands are rather than just saying, you know, we have a product, it's tried and tested, 100 years we've been teaching this way. I think we're at a moment where we can do some deeper listening and say, okay, you know what? Maybe we're falling short and wow, there's all these solutions out there. How can we live into our mission here of supporting our students while also fulfilling our role to, you know, to uphold the democracy?

Yeah. And then, I mean, I guess the piece that also Kayla and I spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to build into our own work and consulting is how do we make sure that this movement, this forward movement, isn't just another flash in the pan fad? Because I do think a lot of times, you know, these things kind of come and go with charismatic leaders or grants. And so how do we make it stick? And I mean, I think you're getting at it through the listening, but, and through the sort of more holistic and institution I'm interested to hear your thoughts though about like, how do we make sure this sticks, especially now that you're joining the consulting world? How do we as helpers and facilitators leave our colleagues in the institutions with a new way?

Yeah, you know, I think first and foremost, the hallmark of a good consultant is that you get in, you set something up, and then you leave and it's running where they're not dependent on any of us. I mean, that's right. That to me is like the hallmark of a good consultant. You come in with an offering, you, you build it, you know, and I know this is what you all do too. You, you help to build an ecosystem that runs as opposed to them suddenly being dependent on you. You know, you say, look, here's some, and here's the way to make it sustainable. I think that's so key. So we talk about the deep listening. I think having the commitment to creating a Sustainable infrastructure where these— that's how you take it from being a fad, right? So that's how you go from, okay, well, everybody else has VR goggles. I guess we should— you know, it's— I always use the analogy of the climbing wall where it was like, well, all the other universities had climbing walls, so now we need a climbing wall so students can see it on their tour. Well, like, what's the purpose of that? You gotta narrate the value of that, right? I mean, that's a little bit different. But with technology, rather than being like, look, you know, I remember at a certain point, you know, makerspaces was all the rage, right? Everybody had to have a makerspace.

Right.

Okay, but how do you build that into the entire ecosystem? How do you build that into classes? You know, with technologies like virtual reality, again, that's why I admire what Arizona State University did. They said, we're gonna take this incredible technology that has this incredible power, and we're not gonna start with like the electives. that like a few people take. We're going to go in with Bio 101 and we're going to make it part of gen ed. You know, and I think that's the difference. That's what makes something sustainable because that is then now something that's part, central part of the ecosystem. The worst thing that can be done is, okay, we're going to set up an institute to do that. Right. I mean, and we saw that, you know, we've seen waves of that. You know, there was a wave of everybody had a cybersecurity Institute. There was a wave of everybody had a human rights institute. Everybody had a diversity. That was the narrative around like a diversity officer. It's like, you can't put all of that on one person or on an institute. It has to be baked in. You have to empower your diversity. I mean, I have so much respect for chief diversity officers because, you know, and the ones where they're super successful are the ones where the president has empowered them to be transforming the entire ecosystem. One thing Pomona did really well was say, okay, diversity is going to be a strategy, a hiring strategy, but we're also going to bake it into our tenure and promotion processes. So again, it's really about how you kind of bake it into your ecosystem. The worst thing you can do is have it be an add-on where you're not supporting it with resources for implementation and you're not actually articulating how and why it's central to the mission of the institution.

What's your perspective on the fact that everything in our landscape is moving so quickly? Economic changes are happening so quickly and something like spinning up, you know, as you said, the theme of spinning up cybersecurity institutes, well, how do we respond quickly while also trying to bring a whole institution along with us?

Right.

How do you move quickly to implement these initiatives when you're also trying to, you build momentum across hundreds or thousands of faculty and staff?

As an anthropologist, I'm sure we've all heard the phrase, culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And I think that there is a prescience to that phrase because I think you begin with culture. And I know we touched on that, but I think in order to be able to be nimble, I think you have to create a culture of nimbleness. You know, and I, again, I think that there are institutions, Southern New Hampshire is another great example. You know, another fantastic example is National University, right? You know, you've got these great examples of places where they've really made innovation a part of the culture and they've made nimbleness a part of the culture. And so, you know, there, I remember when I was at ASU, there was a joke People would say, well, if you don't like an initiative at ASU, just wait 10 minutes and it'll change. And that wasn't necessarily a pejorative thing. It was like, well, look, we're going to try these things. And what's great is that some of them really work. Dreamscape Learn really worked. Having a School for the Future of Innovation in Society, I mean, when that was stood up, was super fun. forward thinking, it really worked, right? And so actually committing at all levels and, and, you know, from the top all the way to, you know, every staff member, every faculty member, you know, it becomes a part of the culture. And so I think narrating the importance of nimbleness, to your point, in articulating, you know, this is a fast-paced environment we're in, you know, and I think Actually calling that out, right? It's a fast-paced environment we're in, and that can sort of be a little bit jarring. Coming back though to that anchoring touchpoint of, and the students need us, like the students need us to be these anchors and to do right by them. So we need to shift our culture a little bit so that these different strategies can, can grow and flourish quickly.

Mm-hmm.

And we also need to be like, it comes back to what I was saying about high tolerance for failure. We need to be okay with an initiative that maybe didn't work. Right. And to say, you know what, we thought this would be a good idea. It didn't work. We're going to sunset it and we're going to morph it into something else. I think being able to sit with that and be okay with that is also a really important part of the culture.

So yeah, I think that that theme of baking in these The initiative, kind of regardless of what, I guess, what you're alluding to here, regardless of what the initiative is exactly about, baking it into the strategy and baking it into kind of the culture of the place and the prioritization of that initiative within the space is critical. And we really appreciate you calling that out as a key element of how we all become forces in the future of this work, whether from a consulting standpoint or Being a leader or actor in, in, in the future of higher ed. Pardis, I'm curious, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Oh, well, thank you for that. You know, reach out, reach out to me. I'm very, you know, very easy to find on social media. Email me. EES Associates will send you our link. This was something we're doing now, particularly a lot of institutions overseas are, are really asking for our help. help because they are, you know, wanting to take bigger risks, you know, as they, as they start to grow. And, you know, I would say reach out to us any, any time. I mean, this is something, you know, I'm so passionate about wanting to figure out ways of serving and making higher ed better. You know, I, it did require me really stepping down from my leadership role to be able to actually feel like I could live into my purpose, which was to spread the message of, hey, there's a different way of doing things and we can serve a lot more people if we just allow ourselves to have the conversations. And you know what? Sometimes we have to sit in the fire of discomfort. It may be that yes, it's not the most comfortable first conversation to have with colleagues to say, okay, we're going to try something new. I'm the first to admit admit that. But there are ways into that. And there are ways into, hey, this could make your life easier while also serving students and the democracy. And let's face it, we're all here because we want to serve students, because we love our students, and because we love the contribution that we make to society. And so I think the entry point, the intentionality with which you bring to these difficult conversations, and just Recognizing, calling them out. Like, look, I recognize this is not easy. And I recognize higher ed is in a moment of reckoning. So we have a choice. We can lead the pack and we can lead and be a part of the problem solve and actually, you know, keep higher ed as, as this important bedrock of democracy, or we can kind of do, you know, a freeze response of like, there's just too much coming at us. You know, so I'm incredibly passionate about this because I've seen the problem, I've seen the solutions, and I just want to start building the bridge.

Well, you're a fantastic messenger. We are so honored and lucky to have you here and, you know, helping you to spread that message and look forward to continuing to look at ways that we can push this forward together. Really, thank you so much, Pardis.

Thank you so much for having me here. And thank you for the great work that you all are doing. It's incredibly inspiring. It's an honor to be here in conversation with you both.

We really appreciate it. Thank you so much. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes You can find all of our episodes at workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify. Please subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.