The Impact Of Healing Journeys With Pardis Mahdavi, PhD | I Love Being Sober

Travel, it can be really transformational because you're taken out of everything that you know, which is almost like a blank slate.

Mm-hmm.

And it allows your brain to form new neural pathways in some ways. And also you're exposed to different ways of thinking, right? You're exposed to different ways of doing things.

Hi, this is Tim Westbrook. Welcome to I Love Being Sober. We talk about life in recovery, mental health, biohacking, alternative therapies, and everything related to living a kick-ass sober life. So let's dig in. All right. I'm, uh, so happy to be here today with Dr. Pardis Mahdavi. We originally met, um, at, I went to a Back to Basics 12-step kind of program and you were there for the 11th step. Marty McLean brought you.

That's right.

And you talked about meditation and it was awesome. And, and I was so happy that I got to meet you. And, and then shortly after that, I saw you with Joe Polish, Genius Recovery.

Mm-hmm.

And you guys were out at the Maha Film Festival or whatever it was. And you went on and saw Dr. Phil and all that kind of stuff. So, um, and then I saw you at the Genius Network event.

That's right.

Yeah. And we're like, okay, here we are. We gotta do a podcast together.

We gotta do it.

Yeah. So I'm glad you're here.

I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Tim.

So Pardis is an anthropologist, author, and former university president who left her career in academia after discovering she could make an even bigger positive impact through transformative travel. She founded a wellness company called Entheon, which focuses on transformational retreats and coaching for personal growth. Pardis brings a unique blend of science and spirituality to her work. She loves exploring the intersection of science, psychedelics, and soul as tools for healing and personal transformation. Welcome.

Thanks so much. Thanks for the intro.

To start off, you've had a really fascinating journey and we're not going to get into all of it, but we're going to talk about some of it. We only have an hour, an hour or so.

Distill all your 46 years of life into an hour.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So You went from being a university dean and even a president to founding Entheon and leading these transformational retreats. Can you share a bit about that personal journey and what made you step away from academia and take this travel towards wellness, travel, and personal transformation?

Yeah, that's a great question. I, I describe myself now as a recovering academic. Uh, so it's a different kind of recovery.

Right, right, right.

Um, but, but no, truly, I mean, I, I had gotten to a place where I was a workaholic. Um, but, and it was, it was getting me out of alignment. And most importantly, I felt that higher education was really not serving the population it was designed to serve. I felt that, and not just felt, I had a front row seat to students experiencing very, very serious mental health crises, one after another. The students who weren't in crisis were still talking about feeling really disoriented. They would come to college, half of them wouldn't even complete college, right? You know, as, as we sit here today, 43 million Americans started college but dropped out. I mean, that's a staggering number. Right. That is a staggering number. And, and that really, you know, points to something is wrong, right? And, and as we sit here today, you know, more than 2/3 of Americans believe college is not a good use of time, let alone money. So, so something is off. And being in the system for, for more than 2 decades, I started feeling that way myself. I started feeling like, I'm not sure if we're doing, you know, right by our students. I'm not sure if we're doing right by workforce. And then I personally, you know, I started to feel that same, you know, that same kind of pain points, right? I was constantly running, constantly working, you know, that whole workaholic thing. And I felt like I wasn't really making much progress. And I felt like we weren't meeting the needs of students today. And I was, I was seeing that, that evidence of that was coming to me. Mm-hmm. as a leader where I was, you know, constantly in the trenches, if you will. And really with students and families who were experiencing a lot of pain and suffering. And that then made me kind of look at myself and realize I was also experiencing a lot of pain and suffering as an individual within that system.

Right. And numbing through the workaholism.

Exactly right. I was numbing. That was my escapism, right? seeking validation through success, right? Right,

right, right. And

constantly going, going, going, going, looking for that next sort of rung on the ladder and at all costs, right? Right. That's how you know it's workaholism because my family life was starting to fall apart. My own mental health was suffering severely. I was in a very severe depression. I got divorced. I ended up, you know, my family, my 2 of my kids remained in Arizona. I was provost at the University of Montana and then president in California, commuting to see my young, young children.

Geez.

And it was like everything had just fallen apart and I was so unhappy. I was so unhappy I could barely breathe. You know, I would barely stop to like breathe and take stock. And I was just running on a hamster wheel and I knew it. Like I knew that I was running on this hamster wheel and I knew that I was like getting burnt out. But I couldn't stop, right? That's that addiction component, right? Where you're just addicted to success and you're addicted to validation. And so, even though as you're in it, you know that there's something wrong, that you're not feeling good, you just keep numbing out through the like, well, I have to. I mean, I can't let my team down. I can't, you know, and I have to do something about education. I have to do all, you know, it was constantly, I told myself a lot of stories and then, you know, I had to start realizing like, No, the, the greatest thing I can do is heal myself so that I can be a better support for the people around me.

Yeah. It's like the best way to teach is to be an example.

That's exactly right. Yeah.

And then as I'm listening to you talk, it's like the, that one of the most basic definitions that I really like is addiction is something that you continue despite negative consequences.

That's exactly right. And over and over again.

Over and over and over again.

Yeah. You're like, you know, I, when I'm addicted to this, let's say it's a substance, it's like I have all these consequences. I'm losing my loved ones, I'm losing my money, but I'm continuing to do it. Right. And that's how it was.

Expecting a different result.

Yeah. You're just, that's, you're, you're, and, and it's also something that you continue to do to fill a void so that you don't have to turn and look inwards.

Right.

Right. So that you don't, it's this constant focus on managing the external world. Hoping that if you just get to that place in your external world, that then your internal world will calm and get to a place of peace. And that's what everybody gets wrong, right? Mm-hmm. Everyone focuses on controlling their external circumstances and their external world or escaping it and thinking that that'll somehow make your inner world feel better. And it never works that way. You have to focus on calming your inner state or getting to what my teachers call a beautiful state,

right?

That non-suffering, that beautiful state inside. Once you're there, then the external world starts to change.

How did you finally identify like your, your issue or what you needed to do differently?

Yeah. I mean,

unfortunately, 'cause you, 'cause you, you were stuck. Yes. I mean, you had, you were probably stuck for years.

Years. At least a decade, I think. Yeah. I think so. And I just wouldn't, wasn't honest about it.

Right.

You know? And then within the 3-month period where I was getting divorced and becoming geographically and emotionally estranged from my young children, I pretty much hit rock bottom. I had been for 7 years on SSRIs, right? I had been on Prozac. I had been trying to medicate through it like so many leaders do, medicate, achieve all the things, and then you hit a wall. Everybody hits that wall at some point, right? Whether or not you keep running into it, that becomes your choice.

Right. Or how many times you need to run into it to—

So really, yeah, exactly. So I definitely hit a wall when it became clear that I was going to have to be living in a different state from my children, doing a job that actually made me miserable. Like, I would have a pit in my stomach every day going to work, right? And I started to reflect on that. And I was so severely depressed and nothing was working. And then I thought, wait a second, I have a PhD in medical anthropology. Like, I spent the first half of my career studying the ways in which different cultures, traditions, bodies of knowledge help people all around the world and throughout history view and make decisions about their mind, body, and soul connection. Like, I studied this and I had studied shamans, right? You're an expert. I had sort of, but I forgot, you know, because one of the things that happens when you go into leadership, you become a dean, all the things, you're then, you're a bureaucrat. I mean, you're an administrator.

Correct.

So, you're not as much focused on your subject matter that you trained in and you got your PhD in. And so, I was writing a book about these amazing women in Afghanistan who had formed this all-female army that were fighting the Taliban and thinking about their resilience and thinking about how they marshaled that. And it was like this stark contrast for me between The women I was writing about and how strong and free and powerful they felt when they were on horses and all that, and how weak and vulnerable and terrible I felt. And I thought, well, you know what? Let me go back to all of the shamanic work. Like, let me go back to all of the writings on the inner state and how do you get back into your body and how do you get back into your soul? And I did that actually, honestly, after I hit rock bottom. I had a suicide attempt. Thank God it was unsuccessful. I wouldn't be sitting here today if it weren't for that.

How long had you been thinking about suicide before you actually made the attempt?

So, well, since 2014, my, I had had like, I'd been thinking about it since 2014. I had like a kind of pseudo attempts in 20, I think, '17 and '18, but this was my, My big one was, was 2021. So 4 years ago now.

And what, and like, what did you, like, what was the plan?

I was in the shower, had my razor, was like ready to go and was getting ready to do it. And I'm so, so, so lucky because my, my father just happened to be, my parents happened to be visiting. And I think, you know, the other, the guest bathroom was taken or I don't know what it was. My father walked into the, to the bathroom and I was so shocked that he was in there and I was like naked that I just dropped the razor and it It sort of snapped me out of that trance.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like there are no coincidences.

There are no coincidences. Yeah. No, there really aren't.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then, and then what?

And then I, you know, I'll never forget the expression on my father's face. His face just completely fell. And—

Did he know what you were trying to do?

I mean, it was, he could tell, you know, and I could, I, he was just like, just get outta the shower. Like, just get outta the shower and wrap a towel around you. And, I was just like stunned and my dad started crying.

Wow.

And it was his tears that released mine. And, um, and that was a really hard moment, you know? And, um, my dad, you know, he went from grief then to anger. He was angry at my soon-to-be ex-husband. He knew that this was happening and, you know, I had young kids and then he got angry with me. How could you do this? And, and then I was like, you know, he's right. How, how could I do this? I, this is not sustainable. I, I can't. keep living like this and I can't keep fantasizing about death like this. I'm going to turn it around. Like, this is— I don't want to feel this way. I don't want to suffer. I'm going to turn it around. And so I was very lucky because I got back in touch with a couple of different shamans. I got off the SSRIs and I started doing my inner work.

Okay.

And That was a really, you know, just started with meditation and breathwork. It's where we started breathwork and meditation. 6 months of that, I was crying my eyes out.

But I know, prior, okay. So prior to the incident in the shower, had you cried? Had you been crying leading up to that? Like, cause I, and where I'm going with this is I, I, I know there have been periods of time where I've, I've just had so much that I've held inside and then, and then finally I break down and cry and then I like 2024. For me, you know, I cried at, at a retreat that I was at and I basically cried for all of 2024. Yeah. You know, but prior to that, I didn't cry at all.

Yeah.

So I don't, that's kind of where I'm going with that.

Prior to that, I, I didn't really cry. Right. Not much.

It's like the walls are up.

Yeah. The walls are up.

Right. You're just, you're just protecting.

You're just pounding forward.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But it was, I think it was that moment and then thereafter.

Right.

That then I think I cried for like 2 years. The floodgates open and you cry every day. Yeah. Like, so this was, this was Christmas Eve, 2021. And then I think I cried all of like 2022 and 2023. I think it was like 2 years of tears.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then when, so from there, okay, I guess what next? So you, you, you focus on prayer, meditation, breathwork.

Mm-hmm. And then, you know, it got to the point where my shamans were like, you know what? Like, you need to go deeper.

Okay.

And your, your mind, you know, we talk about those walls that we've that we've erected, right? The walls of division, judgment, right? Being in judgment rather than being in curiosity. And my shamans were like, you're fighting this, you're fighting this, you're resisting this letting in this healing. And I'm like, I know. And then I was wrapped around the axle about that. And, um, and then, you know, finally one of my shamans was like, look, it might be time for some plant allies here. It might be time to call in the plant allies, you know? Okay. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. You know, and I, as an anthropologist, as a medical anthropologist, I had a somewhat complicated relationship to that. So, you know, I'd read, of course, Carlos Castaneda, the teachings of Don Juan, right? And so even the very first time I heard the word ayahuasca, like the words, like ayahuasca, I was like, I don't know what that is, but it like definitely spoke to me.

Mm-hmm.

And then, you know, I was reading more about it and there's different approaches or different thoughts, schools of thought on plant medicine. Some people say you shouldn't need that. You just, meditate and, you know, you're going to hike up a mountain, whereas plant medicine, it's like a chairlift or a rocket ship, depending on which plant. And some teachers will say there's value to that hike. Other teachers will say, well, look, sometimes a chairlift can be helpful in leveling you up. People have different perspectives on it. And I decided, you know what, playing by all the rules hasn't really gotten me anywhere. Like, I had played by all of the rules my whole life, Tim.

Right, right.

You know, The minute I finished college, I was already accepted to Columbia University for my first master's. Then it was like, then another master's, then the PhD, then another certificate. Before I even graduated with my PhD, I had a tenure-track job at Pomona College. Like, I had played by the rules. I had done everything right that I was, you know, I was the good girl doing what I was supposed to be doing.

Yeah.

Except I was so miserable, right? Like, the higher up I went and the more things I checked off the list, the more I like gripped life, the more miserable I was, you know? And from the outside it was like, oh my gosh, she's so successful. She's publishing all these books.

Right.

Stanford University Press books. I was tenured by the age of 30. I was full professor before 40. You know, I was department chair of like, again, youngest woman, you know, all these things. So on the outside I looked incredibly successful and incredibly put together. But on the inside, I was in so much pain, so much pain. I mean, it was like, there were days where it was hard to get out of bed for a good 10 years there, I would say, probably longer if I'm being honest. So, you know, I think that's the hard thing. So when the plant medicine was—

Now, were you making progress through breathwork and meditation? And I don't know if you went on any other retreats or any other Sort of.

Not at that point. At that point, it was all breathwork, meditation, energy work, a lot of energy work.

Okay. And was it working?

It was working.

Making some progress at least?

Oh my gosh. A lot of progress. Okay. Okay. A lot of progress. But I'm one of these people who never does anything halfway. Okay. If you can't tell, right? I'm like, no, I'm gonna go all the way. Yeah.

Right.

Um, and at that point in time, so now we're at 2022, I wasn't as gentle with myself as I am now.

Okay.

And so I felt like I had hit a plateau.

Mm-hmm.

With the, I mean, it was working. I was, I was feeling better. I was off the SSRIs, but then certain things would happen in my life and it would knock me down, right? So I was in a relationship, dating somebody, and I've also had to recognize that I have a lot of love addiction, right? And so when that love started to be pulled back, I would get really anxious and it was really, really tough. And so it would knock me off my kilter again.

Mm-hmm.

So I was like, no, No, no, no. If whatever I have to do to go deeper and to excavate all these things, I'm going to do it. And a lot of my friends, you know, at the time had gone to retreats and they had, they had done a lot of this, this work. And I thought, you know what, let me give it a try. I want to try because I, you know, first of all, as an anthropologist, I love ceremony. I love ritual.

Yeah.

Ceremony's our birthright. So, you know, I'm Persian. Yeah. I come from Iran, come from the land of Rumi and Hafez and Ceremonies are so beautiful in my culture and everywhere that I've lived. I've lived all over the— I've lived in South Africa, Japan, Singapore, India. What I've always loved about where I've lived and where I've gone are rituals and ceremonies. It's what made me want to be an anthropologist. So when I learned about these retreats and the ceremonies and the shamans who were performing these ceremonies, I was like, okay, I'm curious.

Mm-hmm.

If you can go and really dedicate a few days to healing ceremony, like, I'm in for that. I'm in for that. And so, you know, I, it was, yeah, I think it was 2022, um, that I, I started to be open to these retreats and these ceremonies. And that's what really cracked me open. Like, I had been making progress, but then I got cracked open and it was just a whole other, whole other layer. And so I think that the plants, They have a place, right? They like, they crack you open and then you're, you know, you're, you're really, you're taking a bigger spin in the washing machine. You know, like the breathwork is like, you're getting there, you're getting there, but this is like you're in the washing machine and, you know, you're gonna, you're probably gonna spend some time in the washing machine. Um, and I was glad for that.

So what, what would you say to, to, to, to someone that is curious about, um, about plant medicine? 'Cause I can tell you, Like you, you were hesitant, right? And so what was the process and, and leading up to it? What, like, how did you know it was the right thing for you?

Yeah. I think that finding the right community, the right shamans and the right guides, because I think plant medicine can have the opposite of the intended effect if you don't have people who are going to help you integrate. And I've seen that. I've seen that at retreats. I've seen people go on one-offs and they're just like, Bucket list, ayahuasca bucket list, right? And so they show up in Costa Rica or Peru and they just find a shaman and they take some ayahuasca and then it actually makes them feel worse because they see a lot of things and they don't know how to process it. They haven't prepared mentally for it. So I think for me, it was finding the right shamans, working with my own shamans who prepared me for months. You know, I prepared once I made the decision. I spent 3 months preparing for it and getting the tools, because there are actually tools that you can use when you're in the medicines, which you like actually move your hand and breath to make the experience. Because this is not, and this is where I want to say, this is the distinction. A lot of people think of plant medicine as like, oh, it's like a drug, right?

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, couldn't be further from, there's a lot of people who—

Right. Yeah. There's, there's, there's quite a few people that are, that are in and they think it's a drug. And then there's more and more people these days, I believe, Or I've seen that agree that it's like, well, I mean, there's too many people that are healing from plant medicine done correctly with the right setting.

Um, guides, shamans, intentions. But the other thing is, is that I find that the people who think of it as a drug are the people who've never done it. Because if you've done an ayahuasca retreat, if you've done 3 nights of your head in a bucket and, you know, people say it's like 7 years worth of therapy in 7 hours. And I'm like, yeah, and you better be ready to do 7 years in 7 'Cause it's exhausting. Yeah.

You know, when you come out. It's exhausting. It's hard. It's—

Right. So who's gonna be addicted to that? You know, like that, that's, people are like, this is another drug you're gonna get. People say, oh, aren't you worried people are gonna get addicted to ayahuasca? I'm like, you've clearly never done it. Yeah.

Right. You're definitely not doing ayahuasca to have a good time.

No, you're definitely not. You're doing it so that you actually have a good life afterwards. And there are parts of, as you know, the journey during that are really amazing and uplifting and wonderful. But there are parts of it that are really, really, really hard. And so it's not like I'm hallucinating and seeing beautiful colors and all of that. It's really different, right? And that's why it's an empath— it's an entheogen. It's really about connecting you with yourself. It's much less like a hallucinogen, ayahuasca or ibogaine, and much more about going inwards and connecting with yourself in a container that allows you to sort of see those moments of your life in a different way.

Mm-hmm.

The things that you've been pushing away for so long, it allows you to go back in and like pull out your demons and touch them and figure out what are their shapes and their sizes in a much safer way. So, you know, I, but I think back to your question of like, what would be your advice? I would say, you know, get yourself mentally prepared, right? Soulfully, mentally, physically, and then have a really good integration coach for before, during, and after.

Right.

I think that makes all the difference.

You said you've seen it go the, the opposite direction. And tell me, tell me about that.

Yeah, I've definitely met a lot of people who they did it again, bucket list, or their friends had done it and they were like, oh my God, I saw like a jaguar coming out of the tree at my face. And I'm like, well, yeah. And so they go down there, they haven't done any of their own kind of inner work. And so they, they take the medicine and they actually get, they get very angry or they get really freaked out by what they're seeing. Memories are coming up for them. They're expecting to go and have this interesting ride. Maybe they'll puke, maybe they won't, but they'll have this really cool ride. And they're not prepared for pulling those demons out. They're not necessarily going in with that intention because they haven't, like, done that work, right, to get ready. And so they see things about their past lives that horrify them or that make them angry. And then they, you know, I've seen people really act out in the middle of ceremony and retreats. I've seen people get up and leave, and then you've got shamans who have to go find them.

Right.

You know, they're out in the Right,

right.

And then I've seen people who, who did it and, and then afterwards they'll, you know, they'll call me and they'll be like, I'm stuck. Like, I, I saw some stuff, I can't process it. Like, and we, we say, you know, in, in, in medical anthropology terms, they're stuck in bardo, right? They're stuck in this in-between space of, I saw it, I'm, I'm haunted by it, I don't know what to do with it. And so they end up being Lower. They end up coming out feeling lower than when they went in.

Right.

And sometimes, I mean, we know like with this work, sometimes you have to feel, you feel worse and get better, but they really feel a drop and they don't know how to get back to here, let alone, you know, we're, we're trying to get up to a high, high point. Like we excavate. The whole point of it is you're self-excavating, you're unburdening so that you can really elevate. Right. And a lot of people, not a lot of people, but some of the people I've known over the years, they've They kind of fall off and then they're like, okay, I wish I'd never done it because then I could have just kept those memories tucked away.

Right. I was, uh, I was talking with, um, I went to a buddy's 50th birthday party in the Bay Area. I was talking with a couple of people about, about ceremony. And, um, one of the guys, he said, you know, I've got a bunch of stuff in my past that I just don't want to dig up.

Right.

He's like, I just don't even, I'm just, you know, he's like, I'm just not going to do it. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just gonna keep on living my life.

Yeah. And I mean, that's fair.

Like, what can you say to that?

But, and if, if, but at least that your buddy's clear that that's what they want to, you know, that's what they are. Now, some of my teachers over the years would say, that's gonna haunt you. Like, you think it's gonna stay there,

right?

It's gonna haunt you. But everybody has to make their own choices. And it may be that your buddy, you know, in 2025 is saying that. But 2 years from now, 3 years from now, something could happen and he might say, you know what? I'm ready. I'm ready. You know, I wasn't ready for a full decade to face a whole bunch of the things that I just kept— I was like, I'm fine, I'm great, I'm killing it. Like, look at my life, I'm killing it. I'm a university president. Like, I'm, I'm really nailing it. I wasn't ready. You know, I think people, they, they get ready at different points in their lives because different things transpire for them.

But yeah, I mean, and I can say, like, for myself, I, you know, I got sober 2011, and for my first 10 years, I was just focused on the 12 steps. I was focused on, on that. Yeah. And, and I was not open to any sort of psychedelics.

Right.

Or healing in any other way.

Right.

But then after about 10 years, I kind of, you know, I just kind of got a little more curious because I was just seeing so many people have positive results.

Yeah.

After doing these, these ceremonies. Right. And other things, whether it's psilocybin, ayahuasca, ibogaine, ketamine, ketamine. Like there's so many other things. I mean, we offer transcranial magnetic stimulation and ketamine-assisted therapy. I mean, there's so, I've seen so many people have positive results and it's just like, how can you?

Yeah. How can you pretend like that doesn't exist?

Exactly.

But I will say that when it comes to the positive results, there's a real force multiplier that comes in the form of community.

Yes.

And so, I think, you know, to your point, you were following the 12 steps. One of the things I think AA gets really well and, and, and, and, you know, is the community and having this, I call it, we call it like magic carpet to kind of catch you when you're falling. Um, you know, that's something I think, you know, we talked about, about, about Joe Polish and, and, you know, Genius Recovery. I think one of the things Joe does really well is curate community.

Yes.

You know, that's what, that's the magic of Genius Network and, and 100K and all the groups. is a curated community because you can go and you can do an ayahuasca retreat and it's like a one-off, but to make it sustainable, you need these unbreakable bonds. You need these bonds, these community, this community, because otherwise you go and, you know, we didn't talk about this, but the other people I see who kind of feel worse afterwards is they'll go, they'll have this peak experience. And people who, by the way, who go to like, you know, things like Tony Robbins have talked about some of that too. They go, they have this peak experience, they're epic. They feel amazing. They feel incredible about themselves, right? But then they come back home to their real life and, and they're like—

Reentry.

Reentry. Exactly. And they're like, oh my gosh, like this does not feel good. You know, I've, I've had that experience myself, right? You know, you go, you have an incredible time at like Burning Man or what have you, and you come back and you're like, oh my gosh, my real, you know, now I have to go, like my son needs to get his homework done or I gotta go get milk. You know, or, you know, I remember I, like, I'd gone to Burning Man. It was this incredible peak, amazing experience. And then I came back and I had just moved houses and I was like, okay, now I'm back. I got my kids back and, you know, they were like, mom, school starts in 2 days and I don't even know where my backpack is. So here I am trying to move boxes at like 10 o'clock at night before school starts.

Right.

And this box like falls on me and almost like I break the box. I almost hurt myself. And I'm like, How is it that, you know, I was like, I'm 40, at the time I was like 45. I'm like, how is it that I'm 45 years old and I don't have anybody that I can call? I mean, I do, but I don't have anybody that I can call to help me after being at, you know, 7 days of like Burning Man and community and we're all love and we're all together. Like, you know, who am I going to call to help me find my 9-year-old son's backpack? You know, and that's where I think the community aspect is really important. So plant medicines have a place. 'Cause they crack you open and all of that. But the challenge is that they operate at the individual level. And that's why the guide, the bond, the group is so important for making the results of plant medicine have a force multiplier effect.

Right. And what I'm thinking about as you're talking is just, you know, I'm the aggregate of the 5 people I spend the most time with.

Right.

And so Whether I go off and I do a Tony Robbins retreat or any other motivational retreat, mm-hmm, or Genius Network for that matter.

Mm-hmm.

Or, um, an ayahuasca retreat or any, any of the, any of the journeys.

Yeah.

You come back like, who are your people?

Yep.

Like, who's your circle?

Yeah.

And, and, and sometimes when we go off and, and do one of those retreats, like you might realize that your circle might need to change a little bit.

Yep.

And your circle probably does need to change.

Yeah.

Actually, especially as you start doing the healing work, 'cause you attract what you are, or you attract who you are. And so it's just, it's all part of the process and part of the journey in my experience.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. And so it's, it's also about finding your people, right? And so you're going through these processes and then to your point, you're attracting them, right? Like you're meeting people or meeting people like you and I meet, right? Or we meet people, you know, like Joe, who are all really committed to Like living life in an elevated state, right? Living a better life.

Right.

You know? And that's what we're all looking for.

Yeah. It's recovery, it's healing. Yeah. It's wellness, it's health. I mean, and I know I just think about like the 12 steps. That's my foundation. That's kind of where, where I started.

Mm-hmm.

And then I started doing yoga and then I started doing Ironman. Yeah. And then, and then I'm a member of Genius Network and there's all of these communities and there's crossover. Yeah. And so I'm, I'm part of all these different communities and I'm a cyclist and I'm training for this cycling trip in Costa Rica. Amazing. And, and you know, Some people are also in recovery. So there's like crossover.

Yep.

In all these different communities. And that's how I find my people.

Right, right. And I think one of the things that it can be helpful is also to have like a place, you know, a place where you go to be with your people.

Right,

right. And, uh, 'cause I think so many, you know, social clubs nowadays are organized around alco— you know, you've got Global Ambassador or whatever. Most of the social clubs or societies are organized around either a substance like alco— not plant, but like alcohol or whatever. Or it's like, you know, a country club that's organized around, you know, golf or whatever. And, and if those kinds of things don't resonate for you as an adult, it's harder to have like places to go, right? To be with your people. You know? Yeah.

Well, I mean, I know when I, when I used to drink, everything I did revolved around drinking.

Yeah.

And then for someone that's trying to get sober, it's like, well, you know, my, my life is gonna be terrible because everything they do revolves around drinking and doing drugs.

Right.

And I'm, I, and when I hear that, I'm like, you're crazy. I mean, my life is amazing. And there's all of the things that I do are revolved around health and wellness and all of the, the, the things that, that I love doing and drinking and doing drugs is just not part of it. It's not part of my life. That's not who I attract. Mm-hmm. That's not what I wanna do. And I don't, I don't have to worry about

it.

Same.

Right. Yeah, same. But I think you're right. A lot of people are worried about that. They're like, well, of course they are. What am I gonna do? You know, how am I gonna have, of course they are. How am I gonna make friends?

Yeah.

You know, without a social lubricant like alcohol. Yeah. Right. So I think I think we are really lucky in that we're living both in a place, Arizona, I think has a lot more people like us. And certainly it's a place where there's a lot more wellness, biohacking. I mean, there's so much of that biohacking and wellness and all of that. So much. And we're living in a place and in a time, in a period of time, in an era where more people are starting to be open to forming lasting bonds around things other than drinking or, or what have you.

One thing I was thinking about as you talked about ceremony and, um, and just the process. So like if someone does a psilocybin journey, for example, it's like a, it's like a kind of a one-shot, one and done. Whereas with an ayahuasca retreat, for example, I mean, one of the things that, that I, I just love about it is the community aspect. It's like, it's, it's full on, like, The meeting before the meeting. It's the ceremony. And the ceremony is like a 6 or 7 hour process. And there's just things that happen. And, you know, it's like there's something to be said about doing hard things with people.

Yeah.

And the ceremony is a hard thing.

It is a hard thing.

You know, on Saturdays I do a big, a long bike ride with some, with some friends.

Yeah.

And it's doing something hard together. We bond over that.

Yep.

And then we go out to eat at like The Henry or the Global Ambassador or something like that for brunch.

Right.

Which is like just a way to, to kind of further bond.

Yeah.

And that's kind of the same thing with, uh, with an AYA ceremony is there's just a few days of bonding.

Yeah.

And, um, and I think that's one of the most beautiful things about it.

Agreed. Yeah. I think the bonding is key. I mean, that's, I feel like, and people ask me, what's the through thread of, you know, you've written so many books. What's the through thread of all the books you write? And I'm like, bonding.

Hmm.

That's the through thread of all the books that I write. Bond, people who bond to, to, you know, create a social movement and change, you know, in Iran to change governments or people who bond, you know, who leverage bonds for nefarious purposes. I wrote a bunch of books on trafficking, people who bond around identity. I wrote a book called Hyphen, people who bond with horses and, and all of that. I wrote Book of Queens and Riding, like bonding. I mean, We are who we are through, you know, relationships. You know, it's like, I, I, I, one of my favorite magicians, he's like, well, I can't be a magician in front of a mirror. I need an audience. A magician is not a magician without an audience. Right.

Right.

And, you know, I think so much of, like you talked about the ayahuasca ceremony, so much of, I felt like, yes, there's the 6, 7 hours that are beautiful and powerful, but the greatest harvest for me is the next morning when you do this integration circle and the whole group talks about what they saw and what they experienced and you're processing it together. It's that these, you know, an academic term is intersubjective relationships, basically relationships between 2 people or, or, or you could have a relationship with a place or a thing or an animal too. Like, you know, my horses bring out different parts of me. Um, I have intersubjective relationships with like places like Kauai or the ocean. Like it brings out different parts of me. You probably on your, with your butt, you know, but we are who we are through relationships, certainly with, with people.

Well, it's like the opposite of, uh, addiction is human connection.

Exactly right. That's exactly right.

It's the same thing.

It's the same thing. Yeah. And, and community.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. So what, uh, let's see, I think we've already talked about a lot of this stuff. Oh, Entheon. So what, what does that mean and why did you choose that name?

Yeah, so Entheon means the journey to find the creator within.

Okay.

And, you know, one of the things people talk about addiction is, is, you know, it's basically like a broken heart. You know, people become addicts because they're brokenhearted or there's this, they don't have a necessarily a spiritual connection. They become disconnected, right? And I do think spirituality is different from religion, right? I think both— Yes,

agreed.

There's a place for both. But I think connecting with spirituality, connecting with consciousness, with transcendence, with this limitless field of consciousness, connecting and plugging back in and realizing that so much of it is inside you. The word entheon really spoke to me because entheos, means knowledge within, and Entheon denotes a journey to find that inner knowledge. And so, you know, all of us are on a journey, are on these journeys, right? We're these seekers and whatnot. And so we go on journeys to Costa Rica or Peru or wherever, but we also are on this longer collective journey, right? To like evolve and grow. And for me, knowledge has always been something that I've thought a lot about. How do we know what we know? You know, how do we know what we think we know? I think, you know, in the era of AI, we've come to grapple with the fact that we thought knowledge was power. Knowledge is really a commodity. Right. It's, you know, it's now it's like, what are the ways of knowing? Right. And what, and, and so what is that journey to discover the ways that you know? Right. And sometimes it's, you go to a different place and you discover a different part of you, or you talk to somebody and that activates something else inside you and it's How do you, how do you get to move and be in the world, right? While you're constantly discovering yourself.

Right. So what was your vision in creating Entheon?

I think my vision was probably twofold. One was around healing, you know, and I think because so many of us have, have hit the wall enough times that we're ready to stop. Um, and so it was like, okay, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're ready to stop and you want to explore what there is out there in a different way. And you want to bond with groups and with communities around the world. You want to find yourself through losing yourself and getting lost because you really want to lose yourself so that you can be reborn in some ways.

Right.

Part of it was healing.

That kind of has to happen.

Has to happen.

It has to happen because you, I mean, especially if you want something different, it's typically, it's so drastic. You, you have to start over, kind of.

Yeah. I mean, the people talk about ego death, right? Yes. Like you have to shed some part of your, your ego, right? You have to put some of that aside and start to be like, wow, like I wanna stop living in the story of me or the manufactured image of me, and I wanna live through me. Like, I didn't even know who I was when I was doing this. I didn't even know how I liked my eggs. Like when I hit rock bottom, People were like, what do you like to do? I'm like, um, write, travel. I mean, I don't, you know, or someone was like, I was like, I don't know.

You're like, I don't really know, actually.

Take 5 seconds to think about it, you know?

Right, right, right, right.

Um, I'm like, what do I, that's a good, you know, or literally it was like, how do you like your eggs? And I was like, I don't know. Like, I literally don't know. So I literally one day sat down and made eggs like 7 different ways to figure out how I liked my eggs. It's the most ridiculous thing, but you know, this is Part of the journey, right? But my vision for starting Entheon was twofold. One, it was like the sort of the help people on this healing journey, but the other was to get people out into the world. I'm an anthropologist, and for me, those moments where I really experience powerful shifts and powerful transformations are moments when I am out in the world and I'm connecting with, and I'm seeing a whole different way of being and thinking. And that makes me start to shift my own. You know, it's when I've been in places like Madagascar or Rapa Nui, which is Easter Island off the coast of Chile, it's like those are the moments when I start to really think differently. Somehow being taken out of my environment helps me, but it also, it pays some kind of homage to the fact that around the world people have been asking these questions and thinking about you know, these journeys and there's so much we can learn from different communities. So it was twofold. I wanted to help people go journey within, journey inside and start to like meet their demons and explore them. But I also wanted to help people get out into the world and connect with different cultures because there's so much, there's so much richness in the world.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and I think when we get stuck in our own, when I think about stagnation, right? What do we really want for human connection? If the opposite of addiction is connection, what do we want connection for? We want connection to alleviate stagnation and loneliness,

right?

Those are the 2 things we want to alleviate, stagnation and loneliness. Well, stagnation happens when we are just constantly in the same environment. We're just doing the same thing, expecting a different result, right?

Right.

Whereas when you shift your environment, when you go and you meet people from different parts of the world who think differently, it starts to get you thinking differently. One of the best ways to describe the discipline of anthropology is make the strange familiar and the familiar strange. Okay. So, it's like, go out into the world, a place that you think, God, that's totally different. It's totally out of my comfort zone, and realize, oh my gosh, that's actually so much more familiar. Like, they're struggling with the same things I am and thinking through this too. And then come back and be like, okay, well, We have somehow in this country or here, like normalized the fact that, so my, my, my son is 12. One of my, I have 3 kids, a 9-year-old, 12-year-old, and a 14-year-old. My 12-year-old son has 5 best friends. Okay. 4 out of the 5 have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD. So they're 12 years old and they're on heavy medication.

Right.

At age 12, a bunch of 12-year-old boys on heavy medication. They're diagnosed like, and we've somehow normalized that. It's like, oh yeah, yeah. So he's gotta take his med, you know, they come over sleepovers. They're like, here's the medication bag. And I'm I'm like, we've just normalized that, right? So maybe we can question that a little bit. So make the strange familiar and the familiar strange. Like, how did we get here?

Right. I like it.

Yeah.

Okay. Uh, let's talk about your retreats. What do the retreats look like and, um, how do they help people in their healing, recovery, and personal growth journeys? We've already talked about a lot of that, but just tell me what the retreats look like.

Yeah. So we typically go into places that are known for kind of Some kind of healing sacred sites, et cetera, places like Egypt, places like India, places like Peru, right? These are all places where, so I will say this, not all the retreats involve plant medicine, right? Some, some do, but for instance, Egypt and India, you're actually going to places where the healing is done through things like meditation and things like rituals. You know, you go into the pyramids and you get to experience a ritual that was done thousands of years ago. And that helps you connect with yourself. In India, we do a lot of meditation work, a lot of meditation work, a lot of Ayurvedic work, learning what foods to eat, how to balance, right? So you're going to another culture and each day you're learning the different healing modalities that have been passed down for thousands of years in these different cultures. And you're also getting a chance to connect with local communities, which ordinarily you wouldn't do. Most people, when they travel, see, I talk about Entheon, it's about journeying versus traveling.

Right.

Most people, they travel. They fly to, you know, they, they show up in, in Cairo, they go to the Four Seasons, right? They might go to the bazaar, they hire a tour, they go ride a camel or whatever. And, and then, and that, you know, you ask them, well, how many Egyptians did you talk to? How many Egyptians? And they're like, well, there was our guide. You're like, okay, but did you really get in? Did you get to meet, you know, talk to some like practitioners? Did you get to talk with some mystics? Did you get to, you know, and they're like, no, I didn't. So I'm like, you went all that way, you spent all that money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you didn't get to see the real magic. You know, so you get to really meet local practitioners, you get to meet families, you get to go into and really experience these countries. Um, so you can absorb that, that healing knowledge that's been passed down for thousands of years.

Okay. I know I had a question earlier. I just remembered what it was. So how long did it take you before you decided you're leaving academia and then you started Enthea Ona, you started these retreats? Like what

about Yeah. So there was some crossover there. I mean, um, as soon as I really started delving into my own healing journey, I, you know, I would tell friends, okay, I'm going to go, you know, I'm going to go down to, or I'm going to go to India. I'm going to do this retreat. And people who knew me, they, they knew that I've lived in 7 different countries. I've visited 88 countries. Like I've visited some of the most far-flung corners of the world, you know? Incredible. And, um, people who traveled with me are, you know, they're always asking me for travel tips. You know, I have a friend who called me last night and she was like, um, do you think I need to bring different currency? You know, they just, that's sort of like the reputation I had. So people were calling me and saying, hey, um, I heard you're gonna go do this thing. Can I come? Or, hey, you know, I wanna take, um, I had somebody call me and who's a CEO and they said, I wanna take my, my team, um, on a trip to South Africa. Can you put together an interesting itinerary for me where we can meet some people? Okay. some folks and I was like, sure, you know?

Yeah.

So I was just kind of doing it because I was on my own journey and I'm, you know, it's always more fun to do things together.

Right, right, right.

Um, so I was like, yeah, if you wanna come, let's go. Or, hey, you want me to put something together for you? You want me to recommend certain stops for you? Absolutely. And, you know, and, and I speak a bunch of languages and so there was some crossover and, and then, you know, I was finding that, you know, it's like you take stock of your day. What are the things that fill your cup and what are the things that drain you? Right. That, you know, And we talk a lot about that in Genius Network too, right? So I was finding that the things that brought me joy, the things that made me feel good were things like talking about personal growth and transformation and talking to people about where they were in their journeys and starting to get really honest with people, right? And the things that didn't bring me joy was my, my day job, right? It was where I was like in the muck and trying to be like, hey, We need to change this. We need to meet the needs of students, or we, you know, and it was just like politics and, you know, and I was just, I felt like I was like banging my head against a wall, you know? And I was, I felt like I was almost living 2 lives, right? Mm-hmm. And I was having to hide this sort of healing journey life from everything else, even though that's what was keeping me alive. That was what was keeping me stitched together enough to be commuting from Montana or California to see my kids, right? I had to do that healing work to be put together enough to be able to be at least a present parent when I came to see my kids. That, that, that side of my life was, was keeping me held together. This other side of my life was pulling me apart. At a certain point, you can't outrun the mirrors that are all around you.

How long did it take you before you actually started feeling good? Because I hear you had the depression. You hear, was that the, the, the, the biggest thing for you was the depression?

Yeah. The, well, the, I would say actually more anxiety than depression.

Depression and anxiety.

Anxiety. Yeah.

So how long did it take before you, before that started to really dissipate?

Yeah, I think it, I have to say it took a good year and a half, 2 years.

Okay.

Year and a half, 2. I mean, look, let's be honest, these things still flare up.

Of course.

You know?

Yeah. I had something

happen to me like, uh, over the weekend and I was just like, that's hard. But I now have the tools, right? And so I can say, oh, I see that I'm suffering. I see that I've created my own suffering. I can like, you know, the mirror used to be up so close that I didn't even know what I was pushed up against, but I can pull it back 6 inches and be like, okay, I see that I'm, you know, I can catch myself faster. Mm-hmm. Um, I can call a friend, I can meditate, I can, you know, take a walk, I can go see the horses. Like, I know the things that make me feel good. So I can use my tools. So it's, it's not to say that when you go into this work and this world that suddenly nothing bad's ever going to happen again, and you're never going to feel anxious or depressed. I think that's the worst thing, right? Just like when we talk about meditation, people think, oh, when you meditate, like I have people who I talk to all the time about meditation. They're like, well, I just can't meditate because my, my mind drifts in 100 directions. And I'm like, that's the point. Every time your mind drifts—

It means you really need to meditate.

Yeah. And it means you're actually success— you're succeeding, not failing at it. Every time your mind drifts and you bring it back to the breath, that's a success, not a failure. So it's like every time I get knocked down and then I, you know, pick myself back up, it's like, that's a success, right? That is part of me living a better life because I catch myself faster. Um, so I think it was a good year and a half though, I would say, to thaw out in some ways.

Mm-hmm.

Like to really excavate some of that stuff. And so, you know, when I think back on it, like I'm grateful every day for, for feeling so much better, but, you know, things still happen. You still are confronted with stuff. I just feel so much better prepared now.

Well, and I think it's, uh, what do they say? 90% of transformation is awareness.

Yeah.

So I think it's first becoming aware of it. I mean, like for me this morning, I woke up and I was like, I had this feeling in my chest and it's just, I get a little bit of depression and, and so I went and did a 30-minute Joe Dispenza meditation.

Love it.

I mean, like, love it. That, that's what I do.

Yeah. No. And I,

I, I sit, I don't need to just sit with it. Like I'm not, I have tools.

Exactly. And back to the point about community, we, we talked about Marty. Yeah. You know, Marty and I were in a group of, uh, we're about 30 people and we meditate every morning at 6:00 AM, every single morning at 6:00 AM.

You still do that, right?

We still do. I did it this morning.

I have the email, I have the Zoom link. I just, I work out every morning. Yeah. I'm like, I'm on my bike ride, especially now. I can't do any, like anything I'm gonna do, I have to do in the morning.

Me too. Oh, same. I do. So we do it 6:00 AM, which is perfect for me. Yeah. I mean, everybody's different, but I will say for me, the meditation part is half of it. The other half is just seeing everybody's smiling face on Zoom. Yes. And like, you know, this morning I got on and Marty was like, hey, Pardis, I know you're going to see Tim. Good luck. Yeah. You know, I mean, just knowing that there are people there. Again, we come back to what are the biggest pain points, loneliness and stagnation. And knowing that there's a group of people that every morning I turn, I open up my laptop at 6:00 AM and I start my day like that.

You got your people.

It's like your soul family, you know, like it's pretty, it's pretty special.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Let's, uh, transformational travel. So the idea of transformational travel is central to your work, obviously. In your experience, what makes travel so powerful for self-discovery and mental health? And why do you think removing ourselves from our everyday environment, immersing in a new place or culture can lead to such profound personal insights and even aid in recovery or emotional healing?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that when we continue to go through our day-to-day life, we have a tendency to get stuck. We have a tendency to stagnate and we keep rehearsing old patterns. When everything changes, it's sort of like when you throw the chessboard up and all the pieces are up in the air. You're suddenly, you come back to that 90% is awareness. 90% of transformation is awareness. You're suddenly like hyper-aware of everything around you when you can't read the signs on the highway, or you can't read the signs at the store, or you go to the grocery store and you're like, does this have pineapple in it? Like, I'm allergic to pineapple. I was living in Japan.

Okay.

And I was pregnant. So it was like, there's all these things you can't eat when you're pregnant. Plus I had ALTS, so I'd go to the grocery store and I'd be like, I just I just don't know how to get like a can of soup that I can eat, you know? But that was great because it was like, okay, look at how, you know, look at the way your brain functions. And so, I think that, you know, travel, it can be really transformational because you're taken out of everything that you know, which is almost like a blank slate.

Mm-hmm.

And it allows your brain to form new neural pathways in some ways. And also, you're exposed to different ways of thinking, right? You're exposed to different ways of doing things, right? You're exposed to like a whole different set of rituals, some of which will make sense to you. Some, like when my kids were little, we lived in Japan and Singapore. So it's been a decade since we left Southeast Asia. My kids still, they get home, they take off their shoes and they wash their hands because that's how the school was at Singapore and Japan. That was just a ritual for them. And I have all these friends here. They're like, man, your kids are, they always just take off their shoes and wash their hands the first thing they do. I'm like, That was just a ritual.

That's what they learned.

They picked up, you know? And so sometimes you pick up good, not always, but I think being exposed to the ways in which different cultures do things and like picking and choosing, like, what is the right alchemy? What's your spiritual alchemy that you want to have in your like alchemy cookbook? I think a lot about Anthony Bourdain, right? And his alchemy was food. He traveled the world and tried food. And, and, and for me, it's like, What's your spiritual alchemy? Like what, you travel the world and it's like you pick up meditation from India, you pick up energy work from Egypt, you pick up plant medicines from Latin America. You get to build like a really cool alchemy toolbox for the way that you get to live your life. Yeah. And it's constantly expanding and it's constantly evolving. But if you didn't travel, you wouldn't, you know, yes, we all meditate here together. Meditating in India, which is the birthplace of it, it kind of Enters your body in a whole different way. Yeah.

I think the idea of going somewhere else, it's like you want, you want to transform. So just going somewhere else is, is an easy way to kind of clear, clear the slate or help clear the slate.

Yeah.

I mean, even people that come to us for rehab.

Yeah.

When they come from different parts of the country, I mean, I, I recommend a lot of times people to do, I recommend they do a little bit of a geographic.

Yeah.

Go to a different city, go to a different state.

Yep.

Because it's new. You don't know the environment. You don't know that your friends aren't there.

Yep.

The places that you go aren't there. It's a completely new place.

That's right. And you can do that. Obviously you can do like micro trips on your own. You know, I think that's the, like, go to a bookstore, you know, for me, I'm a writer. So for me, like, I love to go to like a used bookstore or like a library, just go, you know, and it just, it evokes different things in, in me, just changing your environment. You're always growing, you know, when you, whenever you change, you're growing.

Right. Yep. So we're talking about traveling and how travel can spark change.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have a favorite example or a story from one of your retreats where you witnessed someone experience real transformation? What was the jour— the journey like for them and what did you take away from seeing that change unfold?

Definitely. I mean, I, I think I've got, I've got 2. Well, one is cuz I just came back from Costa Rica.

Okay.

And so one of the things things that we were doing in Costa Rica is, 'cause, you know, some of it was spending time in nature, right? And, and that connection to earth and nature. And so, as I think I was sharing with you earlier, one of the things we, you know, you do is it's called the turtle senses. And so, you know, you go onto the beach at night and these mama turtles, these large leatherback, they're huge sea turtles, right? Leatherbacks or green sea turtles. They crawl up onto the beach, you know, around 11 o'clock at night and they dig a hole. Mm-hmm. And then they lay like 100 eggs. And so you get to kind of catch the eggs and you sit with them and you're sort of breathing with them. They're breathing and you're breathing. And I had this experience. This other woman was there and she was a single mom and I'm a single mom and she was processing a lot of stuff. And, you know, she had done some plant medicine and then this was the next part of the retreat for her. And we're sitting there and watching the turtle and then she, you know, spends an hour, the turtle's like digging this hole and then it's like time to drop the eggs. And she had this profound experience of moving grief, like, out of her body as the turtles, like, drop. She suddenly realized how much grief she had been holding onto, like, postpartum. She had, you know, she's from Michigan. Like, she's like, I would've never, like, this would've never been something I would've experienced.

Right, right.

And so here she is, and it's just, like, moving out of her, and she's, like, experiencing the release of this grief around motherhood. And she talked about being completely transformed by that. Another one is, I mean—

So what, what did you witness? Like, what was she like after on the other side of it?

She was sobbing that whole night. She cried probably 6 hours straight. Okay. You know, and then I saw her then the next morning. I, I swear to, I, I'm telling you, Tim, she looks like she looked 15 years younger.

Right.

She really did.

That's amazing.

She just looked lighter. Okay. You know, and then she called me, uh, the other day and she's like, I went back and I saw my kids. And I just like, I realized I had never felt true love for them 'cause there had been this thing blocking me.

Mm-hmm.

And she's like, my relationship with my kids is completely different. Completely different.

That's awesome.

Yeah. So I think that's the most recent one, but I've, you know, so many, I mean, every single retreat.

Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine somebody asked me a question about a success story and it's like,

how do I

pick? Yeah. How do I pick?

Yeah. How do I pick?

Usually it's the most recent one. The most recent one is the easiest one to tell.

That's exactly right. But I have people who, you know, 4 years ago we went to You know, actually I had, I had somebody who I had helped take into Egypt 11, 12 years ago. And it's, she's like, I'm still feeling that integration, you know? So those symbols still come to me in dreams.

Okay. So, uh, back to psychedelics. So there's a lot of buzz around psychedelic therapies for mental health and for addiction recovery. And obviously you're passionate about this area and you're, you're even writing a novel that dives into the trippy world of psychedelics and expanded consciousness. What are your views on psychedelic therapy and sacred plant medicines? We've already been talking about this. Based on your research or personal experience, how can psychedelics used responsibly help heal trauma, overcome mental blocks, or find personal breakthroughs? We've already been talking about this. I don't know if there's anything else you want to add.

I would just add this. The data are really clear. There's just been so many studies that have come out, you know, Stanford University, Johns Hopkins. There's so many studies that have come out that have shown the beneficial effects of psychedelics for PTSD, addiction. I mean, the data don't lie. These numbers are very real and we're seeing just incredible results. Ibogaine probably is the one that has the most just staggering results. And right now, as you will have noticed in this last legislative session, it's got a lot of attention in places like Texas, Arizona, Tennessee, across the country. Ibogaine's been getting a lot of attention because the numbers are just incredible.

Right.

So I think I would just point to that. And there's also a burgeoning body of work on psychedelics and menopause, which I think is really interesting because, you know, we don't talk enough about menopause. And I'm like, you know, that affects half of the population, right? Like, if you're a woman, you're going to go through menopause. It's not an if, it's like when, you know? And we're seeing a lot of data on how psychedelics can ease the symptoms and the challenges around menopause, which is so much better than hormone replacement therapy that has all these other risks. So huge benefits coming out with the data.

What about psychedelic therapy for premenopause?

Yeah, same, same. We're seeing a lot of, for perimenopause and all of that. Yeah. We're seeing a lot of studies coming out on that, which, I mean, it just brings a lot of hope.

Right.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. There is a way. It's not through SSRIs.

Personally, no. I mean, they have a place. And I think for some people they do work really well, you know, and sometimes maybe there's a combination and I'm not here to say like nobody should, you know, I think they have a place. For me personally, they did not work. For me personally, they numbed me out and they had me at a place of like, I couldn't feel love for my children. Yeah, it stops you from going really, really low, but you also can't go get You know, you can't experience joy like this elevated state, you know? And, um, and it just kind of keeps you in a bit of a fog, um, for me anyway. And for many people I've talked to, but, you know.

Have you, have you ever seen someone that experiments or utilizes psychedelic therapy and then goes back to their addiction deeper or worse?

I haven't seen that. I've seen people who It's not worse, but actually it's almost always at least incrementally, at least a little bit better because that awareness exists. So it, like, for instance, I have a couple people I'm thinking of right now who drank heavily.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then they, you know, they kind of started doing some work with ayahuasca and it's not that they don't drink anymore, but they certainly don't drink as heavily. So they used to go from like 3 or 4 drinks a night to one drink, maybe 3 nights a week. It's not that they've stopped drinking.

Right, right, right.

Um, or they will drink and they'll say, they'll like the next morning they'll be like, I drank too much last night. Like they have that awareness, whereas before they did it, they didn't even have the awareness. They didn't even know that they were having that much to drink.

Right.

Yeah.

I guess, how are the, uh, how are the tools here? So for people in recovery, the idea of using psychedelics might sound controversial or even scary. We already talked about this. How do you see psychedelic experiences fitting or not fitting into a sober lifestyle?

I think that it's really key to go into the space of psychedelics with a lot of intentionality, like clear intentions, right? Just going into it with, okay, this is what I want to get out of it, as opposed to I'm going to go and numb out, or this is something I'm going to get to do to have some relief from pain, right? It's really the intentions with which you approach it. Mm-hmm. And so I think that it can be useful in terms of, again, cracking you open. But the idea is that, you know, you maybe have a few psychedelic experiences, but you don't have to keep doing them, right? Like you have them, it cracks you open, it levels you up, and then you go back to integrating that and working and working your daily meditation. I think there's nothing better than daily meditation, to be honest with you. I mean, it's like if someone were like, you can never do psychedelics again, I'd be like, okay, that's fine. But if someone were like, you can never meditate again, I'd be like, oh man, that for me is the number one thing is the meditation, the number one thing, meditation. And, you know, for me, I do like a writing meditation right after I do, we do that 30-minute meditation as a group. When that finishes, I write in my journal for 20, 30 minutes. I let out all the things flow out of me. Those are the two things I really can't live without. So I think if you're going into psychedelics, I think having a really clear intention of what you want from that process and having really good support, really good support, you know, a really good coach as you're going in and a coach as you're coming out. It's one of the things I do that's most rewarding. I love coaching people through that. I love coaching people through that and helping them figure out how to relate to the other people in their lives who haven't gone through that, because that's another challenging piece of the puzzle. But yeah, having the right support, having a clear intention, and Just setting a good container.

What's your suggestion to someone that wants to start meditation or they want to start breathwork and they just don't, they don't know what to do? Like, how do they start?

Yeah, I would say start by just humming for 60 seconds. If you can hum in the shower, like just humming 60 seconds, you can do anything for 60 seconds, just hum. And then I would say guided meditations can be really great. You know, there's, I I can send you the links. There's 3-minute versions. There's the 9-minute version that I did with you the first time I met you.

Yep.

These guided meditations can be really, really helpful because people have studied the ways in which the combination of breath and things like, you know, the sounds that you make actually have a calming effect on your neural pathways. Like they have a real— so that's why I say humming, it has a real calming effect on your nervous system. So when you start to feel yourself that chest tightening or the nose tight, jaw, nose, different places that people's bodies start to tighten. I always tell people, take a deep breath in and just hum if you can, just 60 seconds. Hum, breathe in and hum out, breathe in and just, hmm. Anybody can hum in the shower or go for a walk and hum or whatever, or do a 3-minute, you know, 3 minutes is a great place to start.

Right.

And then having a group can be really helpful because It's just having that community.

Accountability. It's

accountability, it's community, it's people. Yeah, it's contact, it's connection. There's a lot of days, like, in the— where I get up at, you know, I set my alarm and I'm like, okay, I don't wanna get up and meditate at 6:00 AM.

Right, right.

But then I think of all of the, like, smiling faces of that group and I'm like, I'm gonna do it. Let's do it. You know? And it's funny 'cause now my kids have gotten into, you know, it's pretty spectacular thing. But yeah, I would say start with 60 seconds of humming. Once you're comfortable with that, a 3-minute guided meditation. And then you can go to the 9-minute. Doesn't take a lot.

So, uh, looking back at your journey, you've blended science, travel, healing, and spirituality in a really unique way. What advice or insights would you share with someone who is early in their recovery or just feeling stuck in life?

I think the first thing I'd say is you're not alone.

We're here with you. You're not unique.

You're not unique and you're not alone. And, um, good for you for at least the fact that you know you're stuck, like you're already,

mm-hmm,

you're already halfway there.

Yep.

Like that's a huge piece, right? A lot. I mean, I meet so many people throughout my daily life and I'm like, man, that person's stuck. Like they just need to breathe.

I, I notice it. I mean, a lot. Yeah. Same. And it's like, man, they are not okay.

Not—

they're not okay. But they say, I'm okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, okay.

Oh no, I'm great. I'm okay. Things are good.

Yeah. And you're like, okay, you know, that's all right.

But, but I, it's like, I know you're not okay.

I know you're not okay.

Yeah.

Right, right. So good for you. So like, if someone's like, hey, I'm, I'm stuck, I'm like, good for you for being able to say that.

Right.

And then I would say, okay, like, you know, come and, come and talk to anybody, talk to any of us and, and, and figure out like, what are the things that are going to go in that toolbox for you? What's going to be in your like alchemy cookbook? Like what's going to be in your spiritual toolbox? Like, what does your spiritual toolbox look like? Is it going to be like a daily meditation practice? Is it going to be once a week? sound baths? Is it going to be like, let's start playing with different things. And I think one of the common mistakes people make is like, okay, I have to, I've chosen ketamine. I'm going to go down this path of like, it's like, well, if you did it and it didn't work for you, that's okay. Right. Let's try something else. But, but there, you know, there are so many things out there. And by the way, people have been thinking about and talking about and practicing for thousands of years. Right? Like my ancestors have been whirling as dervishes for thousands of years. That's how they get transcendence. Or, you know, in my culture, a lot of breath, breathing, meditation, mindfulness. I mean, these are things that people around the world have been talking about forever. So, you know, there's a lot out there for you to explore. And the fact that you're stuck means you're right at the beginning of an expansion.

Right.

So that's what I would say. Like, yay, I'm excited for you because you're about to expand and your world is about to get to really expand in power.

Love it. Tell me about your morning routine.

All right. Like, I typically get up around 5 and I write for an hour. Um, not necessarily the, the journaling comes after the meditation, but I write, I, I'm always working on a book. So right now I'm working on Bad Trip Good, which is that novel.

Okay.

Um, I think I'm on revision number 22. Um, but each time I'm like, this is it.

You really like to write?

I love to write. Okay. I love to write my whole life. I've been that way.

Okay.

Um, so I, I see. Do you handwrite

or, uh,

I hand outline. Oh, and then I write. I like, I, I have all my scenes on flashcards and like, you should see my house. Like flashcards are just everywhere. The scenes are there, like a line of dialogue. You know, I'll hear some, I'll overhear somebody say something at like the supermarket. I'm like, that's a good line. I like write it down on a flashcard. I always have flashcards in my purse.

Okay.

And then, yeah.

You don't, you don't do talk-to-text in your phone?

If I'm driving, I do.

Okay.

But somehow for me, the act of physically writing, I always have a pen and a flashcard. So it's somehow the act of it, I actually remember it better. Everybody's different. That this is what works for me. So yeah, I, I write from 5 to 6 and then I meditate with my group from 6 to 6:30 and then I journal from 6:30 to 7. So that 5 to 7 is really my time. And then I have 3 kids, I'm a single mom. So then it's get everybody ready, go to school.

Are they, are they sleeping during this 5 to 7?

They're sleeping from 5 to 6, but they get up at 6. They love listening to my meditation. Okay.

Okay.

They, and like, if they can't hear it, They're like, did you meditate? Like literally yesterday, last night we were at dinner and, um, you know, we're sitting around having a conversation and my youngest son was like, did you meditate this morning, mom? I said, yeah. He goes, I didn't hear it. I didn't hear the humming. I didn't hear the chanting, you know? And I said, yeah, you slept through that one, buddy. Uh, but so they listen to it sometimes. They'll occasionally, they'll do it, you know, off screen they'll do it.

Okay.

Um, but yeah, they're asleep from 5 to 6 and then 6 to 7, they're getting up, they're getting ready. They know I'm meditating and writing. And so, So, um, I'm available starting at 7.

That's a solid 2 hours. That's a solid morning routine. I, I give myself an hour.

Okay.

Um, and then after my hour, I'm exercising. So I give myself a couple hours too, but I think it's the most, it's probably the most important thing I do for myself.

100%.

Is give myself that time in the morning.

100%. That's, I think the biggest difference is people who, you know, if you can have that routine.

Right. Either that, uh, I mean, I remember I used to hit snooze 5 times and run out the door.

Same. You know, or, and like scrambling, like the kids are like all over the place. You know, you, you have your bag, you have your like drink.

I couldn't even imagine doing that these days.

I, same. And you know what's so interesting is that people talk about quantum entanglement, which is like one of my favorite terms, but me healing myself has really impacted my kids.

Yes.

Uh, like my whole family is different. And so not only was I running outta the house like that, they were running out of the house like that. And so then, you know, somebody forgot their—

You were the example that you were, they were following your lead.

Exactly. And then they forgot their homework. They forgot the violin, the flute, the basketball. And so then I was like having to go back. I was actually creating more problems for myself. So now everybody gets up at 6 so that everybody takes a full hour. We're ready to leave the house at 7.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like it.

Yeah.

Is there anything I missed?

I don't, I don't think so. You did a great job.

Okay.

Yeah.

So how can people learn more about you, learn more, connect with you, learn more about your retreats, learn more about your breathwork?

Yeah. Thank you. Um, my website, www.pardismahdavi.com. You can learn, you see all my books, all my writings, my TED Talks and all that. Um, with regards to the retreats, it's just entheonretreats.com.

Okay.

Um, you can see the upcoming retreats and then I do a lot of bespoke retreats. So a lot of people say, hey, can you pull together a retreat? I got, you know, us and 5 other couples. We want 12 people. We wanna go to Africa or we wanna go to Egypt or whatever. Do a lot of bespoke retreats for people nowadays. So you can see some of the places we've gone, some of the sample itineraries. Mm-hmm. And, um, happy to talk to you. I just, I reach out anytime.

Amazing. Awesome.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's, uh, that's all we got.

All right.

That's a wrap.

That's a wrap.

Thanks for, for watching, Pardis. Thank you so much for your time.

Thanks for having me, Tim. This is a real pleasure.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

And

we'll see you on the next episode. Thanks so much for listening to I Love Being Sober. I hope you got something valuable from today's episode. And if you're looking for more resources on recovery, mental health, or any of the therapies we talk about, head over to camelbackrecovery.com. You can find more episodes, blog posts, and ways to connect. Until next time, take care of yourself. Take care of yourself, keep growing, and keep living a kick-ass sober life.