120. Growing Communities for Humans with Jeff Siegler

Our guest on today's episode is Jeff Ziegler of Revitalize or Die. Primarily at this point, he writes on through Facebook. That's where you can find Revitalize or Die. Of course, we'll put that in the show notes. Um, but he is a repeat guest, and today we talk a bit about how we were finally able to take this online relationship offline meet in person and spend some time in another city together. And of course, because we're both into community development, like the nerds that we are, we talked a lot about the community. Um, we were in Richmond, Virginia, and, uh, but this conversation is actually really fun. We dive into really some of the human things that not only impact community development but also just cause to maybe further divide us, even in the sense of the rural versus urban conversation. We talk about a really specific situation in which we saw it play out, and it involved me personally, and he witnessed it. And it was just a— it's an important conversation, I think, that we have today. And we're talking about just what are some of the simple things that we maybe can do to lessen some of that division and focus more on connection. Jeff is just a— he's just a great human, you guys. And I'm super excited to bring him back He also has a book that we talk about a little bit. So if you enjoy listening to two old friends, uh, we're old friends now, we are epic friends, we talk about that. You're gonna enjoy this conversation. It's nuanced, it's kind of challenging, it's kind of tricky, and we both felt ourselves confronted with some different things while we were in Richmond, and we talk about what that means for all of us. So without further ado, folks, enjoy this conversation with my friend Jeff. Well, Jeff Sigler, welcome back to the Growing Small Town Show.

It's good to be back. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, well, and now we've spent an entire day in a city that wasn't our city, enjoying that city, eating and drinking our way up and down the streets of that city. We really did a good job, didn't we?

We did, we did. We contributed substantially to the economy and to the service industry.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm super excited to talk to you about this. And it was funny, we were just having a conversation and I'm like, yeah, this should all be on the show. Like, let's just actually— we just naturally went into this conversation. But for people, again, we are going to reference your previous episode so people can get kind of an overview of who you are. Like, I don't prepare. We're just having a conversation. It'll be in the show notes, folks. I don't remember what the episode is, but you've been with us before. And then by some, like, Actually, random stroke of fate, wouldn't you say?

Yeah.

I mean, it's pretty weird, right? We ended up speaking together at a half-day conference in Richmond, Virginia for the Urban Land Institute, which makes me a super weird outlier. Like, why was she there?

And then you—

what were the other keynote speakers? So then we got to— we had already met like this, you know, online, and then we got to come together. So it was really awesome.

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, it was very exciting to get the email and see that you were the other speaker that day because, right, we had a great conversation, but it's always fun to have a chance to meet people in person. And it turns out our online friendship is better even in person.

Yeah, exactly. That's the other tip for everybody here. Like, if you feel like you're really good friends online, try to take it offline and then see what happens. Shenanigans. Some beers maybe. I mean, just get into some trouble. It's good. It's fun.

It was, it was, it was great. So yeah, super fun to speak together and a great time. And we had a, again, we had a whole afternoon to go and commit shenanigans on the town. So it was outstanding.

Yeah. So it's kind of fun. Again, our, our audience I think knows I live in a town of 1,800 people, 110 miles from the biggest city in North Dakota, which is still by most accounts a small town. Like a small-ish town, right? Fargo is a couple hundred thousand people with the kind of the cities around it. And Jeff, tell us again for point of reference where you hail from. What's the smallest town you've lived in? Maybe just to put some context around it.

Sure. I grew up in Lima, Ohio, which was probably around 30,000 to 40,000 people. Kind of a struggling Rust Belt town.

Okay.

And then I guess the smallest town I ever lived in, I lived out in Montana for about 2 years and Livingston was a smaller town.

I don't think I knew that until just now.

Yeah, maybe you don't think you mentioned that Livingston's a small town.

I mean, yeah, like smaller than even where you grew up. So yeah, you have some, you definitely have some small town experiences.

Little, little. And then, um, moved around for quite a while. Actually went to grad school down in Richmond, so I'd been there before. But, um, now live in Pittsburgh. And so, but I guess I kind of, you know, I don't have a ton of small town experience. On the other hand, I was a Main Street manager for a couple years, but I also was the— what's called the Main Street State Coordinator in Ohio for 10 years. And through that job, I was always, you know, driving around the state visiting with communities of all sizes, but typically the smaller ones, to try to help them, you know, with their revitalization efforts, to try to help them figure out like what Well, what's going wrong? What needs to be better? And I figured out through that, honestly, that a neighborhood in a large city really behaves almost exactly the same as a small town. It really is about connections. It's about having, you know, local commerce. Like, it's all local ownership. I mean, it's all same concepts transfer pretty easily. So I kind of think I get it right.

No, you definitely get it. And so you're just talking a bit about how, you know, I leave my town. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm like well-traveled. I just I get out of Oaks fairly regularly for my kind of my other work. And every single time I do that, I come back a little bit changed, you know, not like it's not like massive changes, right? But it's you suddenly you look at something and especially with you, we had a really rich time together. I thought like I loved it so much, right? I think you called it an epic friendship, which I'm keeping in my back pocket. Like I have an epic friendship with Jeff from Pittsburgh. You know, I don't, it doesn't, there's no street cred happening with this, Jeff. It's fine. But like, there's some, there's maybe a little, right? But your perspective on what makes a, a place a great place to live, I mean, that's the mission of Growing Small Towns is we wanna help the communities that we're in be great places, places people wanna call home. I really focus on the people side of that. Like, how do we give the people opportunities to grow, develop, get better, change, potentially shift some constricting viewpoints or open some minds, open some hearts? Like, it sounds very fluffy, but humans are the thing that matter in every situation. Right? And then you apply that kind of lens to the built environment, right? Was that how you would describe your work?

Yeah, correct. I think that that is accurate. I mean, the point of, you know, I have a consulting firm and I do a lot of public speaking around these ideas, but yeah, that kind of nails it that I, you know, learned my work from all the people, you know, I went to school and learned about this stuff like, oh, here's how you do revitalization and kind of I learned all of it from people that were already doing it. And what I— what took me a long time to break out of was to understand that a lot of them were wrong, that, you know, I approached it from what they taught me, which is like, oh, it's all about economics, it's all about money, it's all about planning. It's, you know, it's very technical, it's very fiscal. Here's how you help a community: they have to have jobs, they have to have investment. And so that's, you know, I just kept repeating those things as, oh, I know what I'm doing, obviously, let me fix this for you. And it took me a long time to realize, like, but it doesn't work. You know, it's not working. And if I just keep repeating it louder, it doesn't make— doesn't mean it's going to work. If, you know, it's like you go back to the same community 10 times, you're like, you stupid idiots, why aren't you listening to me?

Right?

Once you finally realize, like, oh, I'm saying the wrong things, like, I'm giving them bad advice, that's why nothing's happening. And to your point, like, what I finally realized, it's not a fiscal problem, it's an emotional problem. It's not just about money, it's about humans. And It's a human habitat. Like, our cities are human habitats. It's the built environment that defines your relationship to that place. And so that's kind of what has shifted my work, is to think about why can't people be attached to their place? What's keeping them from being, you know, having these emotions about the place that they call home? Because we want to have those. And, you know, you can go— all of us have had the experience of going somewhere and having this kind of emotional attachment to a built environment. But we've all also had the experience of going somewhere, of having a— while an emotional feeling about a place can be a very negative one, about feeling crummy, about feeling sort of downtrodden and worried or anxious, just because the clues, the visual clues make you feel a certain way. So like, it's kind of, I guess, think about it as like setting the stage, right? You know, what kind of emotions do you want people that come to your community, or more importantly, that live in your community to experience? Like fear, negativity, pessimism, or like optimism, joy, attachment. Like, it's all in the design. It's in the built environment.

And I think, okay, so you're touching on a few things. Like, if you remember when I was there in Richmond, one of the frameworks that I talk about is that exact thing, right? Like, we don't spend enough time talking about the feelings, the thoughts, and beliefs that people have. We don't spend enough time talking about that, period. And that's what drives people to take action. And that's always ultimately what drives our results. As again, if we're talking about this particular frame, that's true for all results-driven, like we're all eventually ultimately trying to accomplish something, right? Again, at a company, in a family, in a church, in a community, it doesn't matter. Like we're all, there's like an end game we're all running for. And I think the challenge is that we sometimes we think, okay, we're gonna start with the end in mind and then we're gonna back our way into it. We don't back up far enough to go, okay, but what are the thoughts, feelings, and beliefs of the humans involved in this thing? And what do they have to— do we have to change some thoughts, feelings, and beliefs? Is it a clean slate and they have no thoughts, feelings, or beliefs about the thing? That's real work. And then we create— all we have at our disposal is the experience that we generate for them. And I think you just nailed it for me. To me, that's it. You can either operate from a place of, well, everything sucks. And our best days are behind us and the good old days, it's never going to come back. Don't you wish it was like the way it was in 1950? I mean, when I actually hear those things, right? And again, that was a very mean tone of voice. But just like the cycle and it's a vicious— we just like spiral the drain of that. Or it's okay, but what do we want for the future?

Right?

What do we want for ourselves? What do we want for the next generation? And it's more of a hopeful, optimistic outlook, right? You can't really live in both.

So, right. I mean, it's about, you know, being intentional. I mean, I was just kind of writing about that before we jumped on, and it's like, I think about food a lot as an analogy to place. And it's like, well, we're pretty intentional when we go to cook. It's like, oh, what do I want to make? And then, you know, now I need to get some ingredients and find a recipe. Like, if you weren't intentional when you went to cook, it would be bad, right? Like, oh, I'm just going to start. I have no outcome in mind, no idea. I'm just going to get started. And like, what are you making? And I feel that way that we're not very intentional about our built environment. It's like, well, we're just going to build. We're just going to— somebody came to us and said they want to build this thing. So that's fine. Who cares what it is? Who cares what it looks like? They've just decided they want to build it. Well, of course, without any intention, without any sort of vision, these places are going to be terrible because nobody thought, what are we trying to create? And so there's this really fascinating story about that kind of ties this together about the Medici family. This powerful Italian banking family that kind of helped pull humanity out of, of the Dark Ages into the Renaissance. And one of the things that they were— they were very intentional. One of the things that they realized is like, look, we want society to usher in this Age of Enlightenment and art and science and ideas and beauty and creativity. We're gonna have to be intentional about the built environment. We're gonna have to make it pretty. We're gonna have to make it nice. Like We're not going to build a bunch of food courts in strip malls and then all of a sudden expect like, oh, of course, Leonardo and Michelangelo, like, sprang from that. Right, right. From this time, like, no, that it would— we've created habitats that are so sort of detrimental. I mean, they're not creative, they're not interesting, they're not inspiring. And so people feel— are affected by them. People feel downtrodden by them and as they should, like, that's They weren't built with any intention in mind. They weren't built to make people feel good. They were just built to satisfy some national chain.

So talk to me a bit about how, like, what is the argument or how do you position this with the leaders of a community? Because what I feel like I come up against sometimes is just this idea that aesthetics are just a nice to have. Like, you can't— it's hard to tie that. It's similar to company morale. Right? Like if a company feels like a shitty place to work, it absolutely affects your bottom line.

How?

Well, you can articulate maybe like people will leave, customers will say bad things about you, you know? And it's like, how do you drive it back to the bottom line? But what does that sound like in conversation in terms of, of a community? Because like you said, it, it tends to be driven by economics. And I understand that, that makes sense to me, right? Like, our community, we have to like tax base. That's probably one way. But I'm curious to how you've navigated that conversation if you're dealing with a group of people that like doesn't prioritize aesthetics for themselves.

Right. You know, it's pointing at the— it's obvious. I mean, it's human nature. Like, it's just— yes, there, there was a— I was in Iowa a couple of weeks back and there was a survey that they were reporting out and One of the things that the survey asked, like, oh, what do you value most about town? And everybody pointed to the county courthouse. Like, yeah, that's the thing that we love most. Like, oh, that thing that's exquisite, that's beautiful, that you would never pay for today, that you would get up in arms about the cost of that. Yet 100, 120 years ago, you understood that that was worth paying for. And you know what it's done? It's increased your sense of civic identity, your sense of civic pride. It's raised property values around it. Like, The emotional and economic impact of that are untold, yet everybody gravitates towards it, but they never do it at the end of the day. So like, there is an absolutely emotional side of feeling good about where you come from, about like, if everything's run down, that's when people are like, ugh, why would you move here? I hate this place. You know, why would you build here? Why would you open a business here? Like, that is a really common, you know, that's like low civic self-esteem, and that comes from your place looking like shit. Because that's pretty natural, you know. And so when you invest in it, people not only feel better about it, they'll have a sense of pride, uh, they'll feel better about themselves. But simultaneously, of course, there's an economic impact. Like, businesses want to be located in attractive places. Smart people, you know, talented people, whatever, like people, right?

Yep, yep, yep.

Gravitate towards attractive places. Like, where do you— where does everybody go to vacation? Where does everybody— like, where are the highest real estate values? It's— of course it's beauty. The idea Just goth beauty is so backwards and asinine. Like, and it's funny to think that it's like, oh, that's not business. Like, business is just about dollars and cents. It's like, no, it's not about cost, it's about value, right?

Yep.

Like, car companies know that beauty matters. Car companies know that they have to make an emotional pitch. Like, BMW or Mercedes wouldn't exist if people only made decisions based on cost. Like, those are irrational decisions. Farmers markets wouldn't exist if it was, you know, it's like these things are emotional and they have something to do with our identity. So of course, you know, pretty places have a value and have a much higher return on investment. And again, emotionally, but fiscally as well.

That's— I appreciate your work so much because again, you're a dude and you really talk about beauty a lot. Like that's a— again, and I get that beauty is absolutely subjective as well, but it's not totally subjective. Yeah, right. So talk about that because that's what I hear people say. Like, oh well, what's beautiful to you isn't beautiful to somebody else, but you've got a hot take on this, so please share.

Yeah, that is a kind of a fascinating subject and one that I've appreciated sort of delving into. But yeah, it's not— beauty is not that subjective. Like, you know, even there's— even with faces, you know, you can, um, science has shown that like certain faces have proportion, and the closer you are to this— these exact ratios and proportions, the more attractive a person is. And it's that that's not something that— that's actually a function of, like, is that person healthy? Can I see, you know, that's their face displaying some sort of genetic health, which then leads to being like, oh, that's a safer bet for procreation. And that's right. Like, that's what drives us. And there's a lot of that. It's the same when it comes to place. And Anne Sussman, the author of Cognitive Architecture, has written a lot about this. But she's, in essence, she's like, the environments that what we call beautiful are instead probably be better described as being safe and calming, you know, places that, that our brain feels very comfortable and protected and safe. It's like, oh, when I'm here, I realize that like I probably might not get attacked on, on, you know, my flanks that I've got, you know, I can see up ahead of me. Sort of these are places where our older brain feels very calm and relaxed and protected. And so that's why everybody, like everybody thinks that Main Street's the prettiest part of town, or everybody gravitates towards, you know, those historic districts because like, they have a feeling that's more appealing. So it's, is it that subjective? If absolutely everybody's going to vacation in the same places, you know, the real estate values are all higher, like there's just certain landscapes and designs. Again, that's the Medici going back to that was like, when they went to sort of design Florence or whatever, they, they didn't just pick it out of thin air. They looked at, they looked at ancient Rome, they looked at ancient Greece, they actually studied and found the proportions and realized that there were certain heights and angles that were immensely satisfying and that gave people that sense of comfort. So yeah, it's— if everybody agrees, you know, certain things are attractive, or like, then, then how is it that subjective, right?

Yeah, I think that's such a fun argument. So let's talk a bit about Richmond, like what we some of the things that we maybe experienced. So you early, when we were— when we first met, by the way, we're going to plug the Boulevard Inn. Like, we're just going to do that. Holy crap, it's amazing. And I've told so many people, like, if you ever go to Richmond, you have to stay there. So we'll make sure we get that in the show notes so we can— we'll just craft a little Richmond trip for all of our listeners. But early on, like, we're staying at this, you know, all the speakers were staying at this Airbnb, and I overheard you saying that the neighborhood that we were actually we're staying in, I think you said the best neighborhood in the United States, like one, one of the best neighborhoods in the United States. And I remember thinking like, how does he determine, like, at the time, right? But then we walked through it. So talk a little bit about the Fan as a neighborhood.

Sure.

And just like what possesses you to say that, or what makes you feel that way?

Sure. I should qualify that that is a subjective, uh, uh, yes, that is certainly, that's an opinion. It's one of my favorites. I mean, I haven't seen every neighborhood in the country, uh, certainly, but that's one of my favorites.

And don't reach out to Jeff and be like, come to my neighborhood, I bet it's better. Like, yeah, well, you will probably for a fee. Jeff will come to your neighborhood.

Um, you know, I mean, I certainly had a, um, yeah, it's a bit of a sentimental neighborhood for me having gone to school there and, uh, lived there. I really love it. But I also like, it is one of the better neighborhoods I've seen in the country. Like, it's just It's large. I mean, it's pretty big area, you know, it takes, uh, covers a lot of ground, but it's just gorgeous. I mean, it's just, it's like that density that I really love that I think most people just, um, love where there's one of the best things about the Fan too is so, okay, so sorry, the Fan is this neighborhood in Richmond that was, I think, quite built predominantly like 1880s, 1890s, maybe even up to the 1920s, but sort of turn of the century. And it's, it's called the Fan because it's kind of an alluvial pattern. Like, it's narrowed down at the, where it starts down near Virginia Commonwealth University in downtown, and then it sort of spreads out wider as it moves west. And it's just, yeah, it's gorgeous. It's beautiful. A lot of, ton of front porches, extremely walkable. One of the coolest things about the neighborhood is like there's little corner stores and little bars. So it's, it's just a nice, very walkable and beautiful and livable. And I don't know, just, it's immensely appealing. It's one of those things that honestly like it's hard to sort of pin down, but you can really know it when you feel it. And it feels good to be there. And I recall us walking around and it's just like, oh yeah, this is a pleasure. It's a feeling. It was emotional.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, it feels a little like for me coming from a state that we really value our wide open spaces. Right. Like, that's a thing where I live. Like, the hardest thing about this, it's like, well, yeah, because We need wide open spaces to farm. Like, there's things that economically go along with that desire. But when it comes to where, like, a community, right, where you actually live, for me, it was the fact that I felt a little bit socked in, but like in a, like a cozy way. I felt like the community, like, enveloped me, not in a suffocating way. And I get that there might be people that are like, oh God, I would hate that. But I don't know that you would. I think you might think you would until you literally walked up and down the streets of that community or, you know, that neighborhood. It's just, it's such a cozy, protected hygge. That's the word, right? Like the H-Y-G-G-E. Like it's that word that just describes that feeling of like coziness. That's how it felt to me.

And that's how it feels to most. I mean, that's kind of where, like, again, I come back, that's not that subjective. Like that's, that's your brain registering that place as being safe, as being— you know, as calming, as relaxing as big box parking lot can't have that feeling and will never. Like, it's off-putting. It's upsetting. It's actually, you know, a little traumatic because you don't feel protected. You don't feel— that's not natural. It's not a landscape that your brain can even process. So it makes it uncomfortable. And I think that there's something really sort of fascinating in here too of like, I end up working a lot of smaller communities, and I'm going to use this term, and I hate it, but rural communities, which I think is— what I don't like is describing a town as rural because rural is a landscape, not a people. It's like urban is a landscape and rural is a landscape. And as soon as you have a couple of houses next to each other, that's already urban.

Yeah. You have an interesting take on this.

You do.

I remember you saying that, and I thought, holy, that would— I don't know if that would land with so many of the people that I know. I don't, but I don't disagree with you, right? I think it creates more problems for us than it helps us. It does in the conversation.

It does. Using those terms like descriptors of landscape to describe people and towns, I think, has created a ton of divisiveness, and it's a really, it's a big political headache. It's like, no, no, that's it, we're rural here, that doesn't apply to us. And it's like, well, wait, that's a farm is rural, a person isn't, you know. It's like a town is inherently urban if people live together and like And that's okay. I think that's— but it becomes such a part of people's identity that it creates a lot of problems. And so what's funny, so I think back to where we were just— I was out in Iowa. Reports came back, you know, it's like, here's what people value. Here's these statistics. Here's what everybody said. It's like, oh, we do want, like, we'd like pedestrian-friendly downtown. You know, we would like people to have priority over cars. We do want cute little shops. We do want walkability. We do want, you know, these pretty buildings on, you know, and hanging baskets and everything. It's like, oh, you just described good urbanism. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't, we don't, we don't do urban here.

We don't talk about urban stuff here. Right, right.

And it's like, oh, that's so problematic because even the idea of this, like, yes, urban, it's just urban. The definition is of city or town, you know. So that's it, that's it. But it's been led, we've been led to believe like, oh, well, that just means some sort of you know, the hellscape, you know, it's like, oh, that's, that's a metropolis and that's a hellscape and that's crime. And it's like, no, good urbanism is really just the built environment. So, so yeah, it's become such a part of people's identity that when you use it, it's like, no, you're, uh, you're way off basis. That is not at all what we want or who we are. And that's created a lot of problems, I think.

Well, let's talk about that a little bit because I think we experienced perhaps in real time some of those challenges just as we sat there. And again, we were just having dinner, right? It's us, that's the speakers, it's the folks that hired us. And I was by, I don't know how many miles, Jeff, 10 solid miles, the most, you know, rural living human at the table, right? And so you and I were sitting on other ends of like separate ends of the table.

Yes.

There was like, what, 9 of us or so? I don't know about 7 to 9 of us. What did you experience? I would like to hear, like, I know what I experienced, but you had a really strong perspective on it that we got to talk about then as we walked about. What do you feel like you saw? Yeah, this isn't to be disparaging to anybody, right? Any single human. That's not the point. It was more just a huh. Like, that's how I felt, right?

Yeah, clearly there were some people had some blind spots, and I think that that was, was pretty fascinating because, right, I mean, here I am always like, I live in a more urban area or whatever, like a more, a larger city or densely populated area, oftentimes, you know, going into smaller towns and trying to have these conversations that urbanism isn't a bad word. Your grandparents had urbanism. Like, this isn't some sort of liberal progressive agenda. Like, ancient Italy is not the world's most progressive— you know, place.

Like, let's move down. I love that, by the way. That's such a great way to frame that up because you're literally talking now about where it gets hot for Americans. Let's just— it's kind of an exclusive to the West thing. Like, this is us. This is an American thing. We end up applying these really clear labels, ideological labels like liberalism and conservatism. Like, You just touched on it a little bit and we saw it play out. I would again, sorry to interrupt, but the fact that you're like, no, no, no, no, back to like Italy, you're just like, you're going to call them progressive? They have great urbanism. You're going to call them progressive?

Like, right.

Okay, so go. Sorry, I just had to point that out.

No, no, I appreciate it because like this is a huge topic and it's one that's I think as important as about anything and also like a little tricky. It is. So everybody now, like, in smaller towns, there's this big divide and it's like, we're real America because we're a small town. You know what that Jason Aldean song is out that's like, is creating a bunch of problems. Like, try that in a small town and it's like, whoa, right?

It's totally hot button presently. Like the day that we're recording this, it's like the whole weekend blew up with this thing. Yeah.

And so there's this idea that, right, like cities are just liberal and small towns are just, you know, sort of conservative and urbanism means this one thing and rural means this other. And that's what divides divides us and we're all so different. And, you know, but it's— I think that's— politicians have pushed that agenda. I think it's, it's media sort of pushed that agenda, and it just doesn't exist as much as I think we're led to believe. It's a narrative, and it becomes people's identities again, and it sucks. And it's so unfortunate because everybody strives for the same thing. Like, when I talk about things aren't that subjective, like, people are 99% on the same I know, right?

Seriously.

Yeah. Like, we all have the same values. We all like, oh, yeah, you'd like to experience joy? That's crazy. Me too. Oh, do you want your family to be, like, happy and safe? Like, that's—

oh, wow. Yeah, right.

You live in a small town and you want to have French, want to have friends and relationships? This is nuts. And that's the idea behind, like, a quality-built environment. It doesn't matter if it's a town of 500 or 5 million. It affects everybody the same, and it should be of quality. It should facilitate friendships. It should facilitate joy and happiness and attachment, whatever. So, like, so in any case, it's often me coming from the city going to smaller towns and trying to like, hey, you know, you can trust me. Like, I'm like, you know, trying to like, hey, I understand you. I'm not, you know, but it was really wild because as we're sitting at dinner, I saw the reverse play out. And so Here we are having dinner and, you know, it comes up that you're from North Dakota. And like I said, I'm like you said, I'm at the other end of the table, but I hear 3, 4, 5 comments of where people are sort of talking about like you, like this is your first, you know, you're a rube that not that bad, but like, oh, this is your first time in the city, country mouse. Like, whoa, well, let us talk slower. And what do you think of these buildings? And you know, how are you, how are you feeling? Are you adjusting? I mean, again, it wasn't that bad, but there was some of it. There was a little bit—

there was a tone of it.

Yeah, there was a little bit of condescension. There was a little bit of— yeah, some was ignorance, you know, certainly some blind spots. But yeah, people were sort of treating you as if you were, um, from like— yeah, the first time stepping off a plane into a city. And I just— I wasn't surprised to hear it a little bit, but I was sort of— it kept going and to the point where I finally turned and said, whoa, can we ease up? Or I can't remember exactly, but I did make a comment of, man, this is going on a little too long.

So I love this so much because I do— I think I shared with you that the 5 years ago me would have crumbled under that. I wouldn't have been able to hold my own. So you think about how this plays out in a broader sense for us. You and I just happened— this was like a microcosm of it. But you saw it because you have to do the opposite where like you, like as a city person, you go to a small community and again, not urban and rural, but just like you live in a big city versus being in a smaller community, right? And you have to try to become relatable in the sense that they can trust you and that you know what you're talking about. And you know, like all the things and you're not dumbing yourself down, but you're just, you're trying to tell them like, I don't think I'm better than you. And I was in a position to have to say, I'm as good as you are. Why are you talking to me like that? You think about, um, the lift that that is for a human to do. And it, cuz it wasn't just one person, Jeff, it was several people. And they were digging at me and I can take it, right? But just, it was such an interesting thing to see play out. And I, you and I had such a great discuss, we talked, We bobbed and weaved all around this topic, like, the next day when we were, when we were hanging out. And it's like, well, no wonder we have problems, is what it felt like. Like, here we are. Like, no wonder we can't get along. Like, what media are you consuming that that's automatically what you assume about me?

Yeah. Yeah. It was a little patronizing. It was a little condescending. And it sort of, it sort of hurt too, because it's like, oh, that, you know, I I sort of feel like these are my people. And, you know, here there's this huge blind spot where it's like— and I mean, I'm certainly very liberal, I'm, uh, progressive, and would like to think that we recognize that, you know, the idea like everybody is the same. And that— I don't know, it was sort of— yeah, it was a little bit painful to hear people that I assume are probably consider themselves pretty liberal that live in the city too, that they have this blind spot that they sort of took your being from North Dakota as— yeah, it wasn't ever nasty, but it was just a little condescending. And it was— I don't know, I don't know how better to describe it, but it felt a little painful, or, you know, to have these people kind of make that same mistake and do it pretty openly, like do it pretty brazenly, of kind of make little jabs at you and where you're from. And it's like, can you— yeah, are you— do you know anything because you're from there? Can you be Do you get what's going on? And it was just like, guys, that's sort of what I think that we— again, I believe as somebody that's— I believe that's part of my politics is trying not to do that. Or maybe it's just part of my nature, I guess. And maybe it's not my—

Yeah, right.

But of not making assumptions about somebody just because where they come from. And that happened and it was a little— yeah, it was hard.

Yeah, it was so interesting. I felt like you actually almost took it more to heart than I did. You know, like when we talked about it, it almost bothered your heart more than it bothered mine because somehow I was able to sit there and just think, well, isn't this interesting? It was more like, aha. And then I think the other thing was I felt really emboldened to stand in front of all of them the next day. Where there was more of them, right? And, and felt really in control and in command of the room. Like I felt it almost emboldened me in some respects because, because again, I think, you know, again, kind of the audience we were talking to typically like planners, right? People that, that have this position a lot where if you walk into a situation and you lead with that kind of tone or that kind of attitude, like, you're missing this beautiful opportunity to, like, be a better human through your work and through the process. So it's kind of fascinating. It actually did— again, I don't believe for any at all that it was intentional. I think it was all meant mostly in jest, but it ended up— there was a couple that cut a little deeper than they should have, probably.

Yeah.

And I just had this big thing, like, I don't want to be assumed that I'm anything just because of where I'm from, right?

You know, we're speaking a lot in generalities. Like, what was an example of one thing that was said? I can't really— like, I just remember the feel and like sort of a couple things being said. But do you remember anything specific?

Yeah, so there's a couple things. The one guy, it was— and this was, again, this was ignorance, but it's like he just kept going at it. I was like, okay, could you just— could you just stop? He had said, yeah, I've been to Dakota. He said that, and I looked at him.

That's right.

And I said, well, there's more than one. Which one? And then he goes, oh, the one I've been to Sioux City. And I said, that's in Iowa. And then, you know, right. And I, at that point, I was like, okay, come on now, you know, like trying to be relatable, asking if there was a few good jabs about agriculture that came up. And like, if I, you know, about my cattle. So that would be such a great opportunity to even just say, how do you farm? What does your family do? We don't have cattle, Jeff. We don't personally. It's like, oh, so there's more cows than people in your state. And I said, yeah, probably. It's those kinds of things, like things they've heard. And I get it, like sound bites. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But it was very much like, oh, like you said, fell off the turnip truck and here she is.

Right, a little bit. And I, you know what, the comment about sort of, you know, I've been to Dakota, like, okay, that's, that's sort of fine, you know, like the ignorance, I guess, is fine. Yep. The amusement that he later got from his own ignorance was what really kind of stung, was like he was sort of seemed pleased with himself for having done that. And it's like, that's ugly, that having never been there, right, right. And being dismissive of two whole states and the people that live there as if Yeah, that part kind of stung. And, you know, maybe it isn't so much even like— maybe it's not a— here's maybe where I have blind spots. It's like, oh yeah, I certainly see it from the other side where it's like, oh, city folk like this, not real Americans. And it's like, yeah, I know that plenty of people in cities also, you know, the flyover country comments or whatever. Like, so I know that goes both ways. Maybe it stung a little more because it was from like people that work in urban planning, you know, that work in city planning. Like Yeah, that maybe that's what stung a little bit about it more because it was like, oh, I thought, yes, sir, we're supposed to be pretty understanding of people.

Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, it was a little painful seeing the people that work in this around these ideas about how do we design places for people be a little bit dismissive.

Uh, one guy said, so our governor had just like the day that I got there had just announced his run for president, like Governor Burgum, and here in North Dakota. And so I made that comment and I said, well, who knows, guys? Like, maybe you'll have to come and visit me in the state that's home to our next president. I was kidding, right? And the guy goes, well, I never went to Chicago when Obama was president. And I looked at him and I was like, okay, so I was almost also like, I'm literally trying to say there's things to see and people to know. Like, whether our governor becomes president or not, it's like not the point. But I just, I looked at them and I said, you know, if you really want to know what it's like, you should just come and visit. And then there was one person said, like, can you even fly there? That was like a comment. It's like, well, how do you think I got here? Do you think I walked? Do you think I rode horses? What do you think happened? You know, so I guess it's just like you said, it was the— it's one thing to never have been. That's fine. I don't hold that against anybody. But it's another thing to be totally okay that you have all these predispositions or thoughts about, misconceptions about it, and that it doesn't bother you that there's actual humans that live out here.

Right.

I guess what it comes down to, Jeff, is I genuinely try to approach humans, all humans, as if there's something I could potentially learn from them.

Right. Yeah. It was wild. It was really Again, pointing out one of my blind spots, like, yeah, I see where this happens all the time, but it was sort of a little, yeah, it was a little bit painful to sit there and hear people that, yeah, make those assumptions about you because you're from North Dakota. It's like, that's just not fair. And it's not even like, it's unkind, you know, and we need to do better, but it's also at the root of some of our political problems. And it was interesting because later I, that was still in my mind all day. The next day and like later, you and I, a couple of my friends from graduate school, we ended up meeting out for dinner and it was very much on my mind. It's like, is this going to play out again? Is this going to happen again? I wonder like how my, you know, these friends of mine, like, are they going to kind of make the same mistake and just assume like, oh, which horse is yours out front, you know, or whatever? And it didn't happen. And it was like, whoo, like, okay, I am glad to know that that just, it was on my mind and had me worried about, I hope these people that I care about, these old friends aren't prone to make those same mistakes.. And they didn't. So that was—

no, they were awesome. Yeah, they were awesome. But that's just it. I think it's— if I had been a less evolved or less developed person, like, even, like I said, like even 5 years ago, just the amount of mental and kind of emotional work I would have had to do to take a stage the next day after that experience would have been a lot harder. And I'm, I guess I'm like simply saying there's a lesson for all of us in this, I think. And part of it's that, right? Like, treat people that you're meeting as if there's something they could potentially teach you, because there probably is. Like, there's no way you know exactly everything they've lived, which means they know something that you don't know, right? What would you say, like, for— again, because this big conversation is about community, it's about, again, not just how our built environment affects us, but how the humans interacting with that built environment, how it affects them, how it affects our relationships. And this was something that played out in real time for us. And it was such an interesting thing that we spent so much time talking about because I'm just going to say this again. My listeners know where I live, are the politics of my state. It's pretty clear. And again, and that's where some of this came from. It was just like, oh, well, and I think even the red and blue thing, I think that came out in the conversation too. At the end of the night, we ended up having a pretty hot discussion about gun control. I don't know if you remember all that. And I did— I wouldn't say like we solved anything, but it was still a compassionate and decent conversation. And I'm not at all talking about what positions you and I had about or anything, but we were having the nuanced, challenging conversation. We had been like, how many days? The day before we got to Richmond was that shooting at the theater at a graduation, you know? So yeah, I just think all I want people to realize is that I think that We can rise above our politics. I think we have to. I don't know. That's what I would love to see happen, I guess. I don't know. What can we do, Jeff? Like, what's the takeaway for all of us from this thing that we experienced?

Biggest takeaway is that nobody's that different. You know, like, we've sort of been given our sides or taken our sides and pushed further and further towards those sides. Unwittingly like forgetting that we're all pretty much the same. And, you know, it's funny, like, my— I was just down in Florida for some work, but I had a chance to stay with my dad for— I'd see him for a few days. And it's like, if when we walk through discussions of policy, we agree on nearly everything, nearly every single bit of policy, it's like, yep, you know, agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed. And it's like, how funny that we vote completely differently. And I think that that is— I mean, gun control is an issue. It's like 90% of the population wants to see more done. But, you know, we've not had any movement on that forever. And so I really do think that it's— we've kind of been— the sides have been pushed further apart, both by, you know, political rhetoric and the media, because there's— that's an interesting narrative, but it's just not true. It's just not the case. And that's one of the reasons, like, I think that this work is so important. It's like, a great built environment fosters human interaction. When I see somebody on the street, what we do when, you know, when you run into somebody in person, you seek out common ground. You know, I would never meet somebody on the street like, who'd you vote for? What's, you know, what's your faith? Like, no, those are topics that would lead us to like, that would be combative. That would be sort of uncomfortable because you know that's going to be confrontational. And so instead what we do, it's like, oh, what, you know, the Pittsburgh Pirates can't get a hit. What the hell? Or what do you think of this heat? You know, we try to use more mundane topics so that we find that common ground. And so that's why it's so important that people be together, that we have a built environment that facilitates that. That's why, like, to me, our walk around the fan mattered so much because like, these are the places that a built environment like this not only makes people feel more of a sense of joy, you know, a little bit happier, safe, calm, you know, less anxious, but also more connected, more connected. And it forces you to remember that, like, oh, humans, they're kind, they're nice. They tend to be— I think 99.9% are all extremely kind, caring, compassionate people. And there's, you know, a small percent that's hardwired wrong. But when you take somebody and they, like, you know, when people live in an isolated environment, the more sort of a healthy small town, even if it's in the middle of North Dakota, still extremely important. It should be like farmers are farmers, that's great, and ranchers are ranchers, and that's fine. You need a bunch of land to do that. Nobody else needs that much land, and it's not necessarily good for people. And I know that, that some people are going to get fired up about that, but what people need is more human connections, those relationships, the ability to count on somebody. And not only that, to count on somebody, but to look after other people.

Right.

You know, when that really is a function of the built environment. So I think when we keep building these places that are like, well, yeah, it's just the 3 of us that live here, but we have, you know, 10 acres, but we don't farm either. And it's like, those I think are places that have helped create a lot of isolation, that are fostering a lot of like that you're different, you're different from me. Like those sorts of places don't allow people to get together enough to experience that sense of humanity and realize like, Again, I see where my dad lives, and some of that's like, the nightly news is terrifying.

Oh, gosh.

They're always in their car or online. And so it's built up a distrust, not only of him, but the people he lives around. There's a certain distrust of humanity, and there's a lack of stability, and there's just this general anxiety around like, oh, society's going to hell. And it's like, man, if you just spent time with other people, if you just spent time around other people, you'd realize like, Oh no, they're actually great.

I'm going to make what could be an enormous supposition, or like, but it's just an observation. So thinking about what farming used to be, right? Families used to be huge. And so you actually had a bit of a built-in, like, you were that caring and nurturing for other humans was built into, you know, so you could be on 10 acres or however many acres. And you weren't isolated because you had a lot of humans around you. Yes, you created them, but they were all there. And then they also community-wise barn raising. Like, that was like an activity. Like, you would come together with other farm families and you'd all put your hands on something together and you would do that work together. So there was a time when farming was less isolated, right? Because, you know, so again, it's not in any way— again, any listener listening to this that thinks that Jeff is saying that farmers aren't healthy and whatever. It's recognizing, though, that the evolution of this over time, as technology advanced and we needed less people to run a farm, it's not just that the farm became more efficient. We became lonelier.

Right. Right. And I think farming is something very— I've worked and lived on a ranch out west. And when there were certain days, that community is incredibly tightly knit, actually. I was amazed that on branding day, everybody from the valley would show up. There was a lot of— I loved it. I was kind of shocked. I didn't see it coming to realize what a close-knit community there is in this valley. No, I think it's more about kind of suburban development, honestly. That's like the—

Agreed. Yeah. Yep.

It's not farming and it's not urban. It's not— it's neither. But it's very isolating, you know, and it's created a lot of political problems. It's created a lot of, again, isolation, loneliness, depression, addiction of these places that just like— that's a habitat that's not fit for humans. And that's what we keep building. Like nobody But then it becomes part of somebody's identity. It's like, well, yes, I live here, so that's me and I'm going to defend it. Like, I get that. That's fine. But let's also be honest, like, it's not great, you know, no offense to the person that lives there or that's defending it. That makes total sense. What I find fault with is that's all the bullshit we're building, right? It's like a municipality, city leaders, you know, elected leaders, whoever needs to stop letting places get built that create these problems. So I'm not trying to shame anybody. That lives in a car-centric place. The problem is that we only build car-centric places, and they're doing untold damage on our health.

It's fascinating. It's just the whole concept of cars and how connection can't happen when you're passing somebody in a car. You can wave at them and you have that connection, or you might know somebody that you're passing and you have that connection. But it really is just a fundamental human need to be seen. And again, I think we're suggesting maybe that this is one of the factors that has led to the rise of all of the mental human problems, right? Like mental illness and addiction and suicide and all of it. And then the media, like you said, it's fascinating to me because I would love to see a mainstream media platform that literally just talked about these amazing opportunities to grow and learn from each other. But that's not sexy or sellable. Who the hell wants to get behind that? It's so much more fun to be like, these assholes, those assholes, and then we just, you know, we just keep doing the clashing because it sells.

Unfortunately, it is, it is. But behind the computer screen or your window, you know, your windshield screen, there's just no humanity. Like, you're— the thing that compels you towards being kind to somebody else is sort of one step removed, and we're not. And man, it just matters so much to be surrounded by people. It's just— I mean, it's There's plenty of statistics that show, like, it, it's the most important part of our health, like, our social health, to feel a part of something, to feel connected, to experience humanity, to care for somebody and have somebody care for you. And that feeling of belonging, and like, that's been designed out of our places, and it's— that's what's led to nearly all the societal problems that we're dealing with that, that would be vastly improved if we just connected with people more if we just had this built environment that facilitates. I mean, I know whenever I travel, we immediately gravitate towards the place that's most filled with people. You know, that, like, they'll say Jackson Square or something in New Orleans or wherever it is. But like, what place is full of people? Or do you think about, like, when you're looking for, like, say you're walking around a place, like, oh, that restaurant's full. I want to go there. Like, you know, we're all—

Walking into an empty restaurant is very unnerving.

Right? Like, we're always seeking out people because that's how we experience our own humanity. That's how we experience our own happiness is to be around other people. And we've made it extremely hard to do just by the way we've built. And so that's kind of my big thing. Yeah. And we need more people.

And as we kind of wrap our conversation, which I just appreciate your perspective so much, and I got to know you a lot better as we spend all this time together. It was just so much fun. But you also wrote a book. It'll be out any minute now, and we're going to make sure we get everybody hooked up to that. But what did you write, and what's the premise of it?

Sure. I wrote about my night out eating French food in Richmond and having all the drinks.

Did I make the book? Is that what you're saying? Oh my gosh.

You did. You did.

I'm so excited.

It is about— it's one day. I'm going to say right now, September 1.

OK, fantastic.

It will be available September 1. And it's called Your City is Sick, and it really is about these ideas. It's about like the, how the built environment has such a huge impact on our health. And you know, it affects our mental health because I'll try not to drone on too much about this, but in essence, like humans seek order. You know, we're always trying to put order into place and chaos is kind of upsetting. So that's why if you look at a deteriorating building or deteriorating landscape or even, you know, a lawn that hasn't been, it's unkempt, it's a little bit like, I want to put that in order. You know, like a picture that's a little crooked. Like, it is wired within our brains to try to create order out of chaos. And so when we have environments that seem chaotic, again, like big box stores, parking lots, or buildings that are deteriorating, blocks or just hearing buckling sidewalks, it is mentally sort of upsetting. Here's a better way to put it. Have you ever, you know, walked down the street, you're like, I don't like the way I feel when I'm here?

Yes, absolutely.

All right, so you're like, I'm ready to move off the street, it makes it a little unsettling. Well, imagine that you called that place home. You would either adapt to those chaotic surroundings— well, that, yeah, you would, like, you either leave or you adapt to chaotic surroundings. Yep, yep, right. Which, that screws with your brain, so creates mental illness. There's a reason why you look at a street, you're like, I bet you it's full of criminals and addicts on that street. Like, you're honest, you're not wrong. And that's the conclusion you're jumping to of why it is that way might be wrong, but you're not wrong if you look at a rundown place and think, oh, it's probably full of rundown people. Yes. So it's created— our built environment creates mental problems. It certainly has social issues, social problems, you know, social health. I always say that I'm no more neighborly than somebody that lives in a cul-de-sac. It's just that I have, you know, I live where there's sidewalks and like really close together and we can walk to the coffee shop, like— that's not a function of me, that's a function of design. Fiscally healthy, you know, do you have to own 2 cars, you have to own 3 cars to get by? And physically healthy, do you walk everywhere or do you have to drive everywhere to do everything? Is fast food your only option? So that's, that's the concept behind it. It's that how much our built environment affects our mental, physical, fiscal, and social health, and how we need to build places that foster more health. Like, we're in the midst of a healthcare crisis, and the healthcare industry keeps keeps growing, but we only treat one person at a time, where if we improved our built environment, you could treat 10,000 people at a time, 100,000 people at a time, right?

It's such a fascinating concept. I mean, it truly is. And it's like you just said, the healthcare industry keeps growing and we keep getting sicker. Like, we're not— it's crazy. Like, as that continues to grow, you would think like, oh, well, these things should be getting solved. Nope, nope, they continue to grow and we continue to decline. Like, it's Right. Yeah. So it's just time to look at a different potential source, right?

It is. Yeah. Improving our places. That human habitats need to be better. They need to be fit for humans and they're not. And so, you know, the point I always make is like, you took somebody from a dying, struggling, you know, whatever, spread out suburban, whatever place it is, but a place that's doing really, really poorly and then relocated them to an amazing built environment., you know, to, uh, I don't know, Savannah, Georgia or something like that, that old district thing, they would fundamentally become different people. They would change. They would become more civil. They would have more self-esteem. They would, you know, experience more humanity, probably more kindness, and definitely they would get physically healthier because they'd be walking everywhere. Like you would fundamentally change so much about their life just by changing the place in which they lead it. And when you say it that way, it's like, oh yeah, that actually makes a ton of sense.

Yeah, I mean, I hope if nothing else, well, first of all, I hope everybody goes out and gets your book that has anything to do with community and/or economic development, or just if you care about your town, frankly, like if that's like a part of your scope. Like, I get not everybody gets into the weeds about this stuff the way that we do. I can completely appreciate that. But that's the first thing. I mean, honestly, I just hope that this, that this conversation of two unlikely friends, like Again, on paper, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense at all that we would have spent an entire day together just walking around bullshitting, right? But we did.

Right.

And again, for me, it's just, it's one of those experiences that I come back a changed human. I come back, I come back to my environment thinking, how do I create more of that here? How do I foster more of that here? What is my job? What is my role? How can I do that? I'm honestly so, I'm grateful for you. I'm so glad I got to meet you. I'm so glad I got to spend that much extra time. With you because I'm a huge fan of your work. It's really important work.

Oh, um, I am flattered beyond belief. It was really incredible getting to hang out in person and know you and understand your work and just to, yeah, to have a new, to have a new epic friend. It was amazing. And so yeah, I really appreciate the comments. Thank you so much. I also love your work and what you're doing too because, right, like there's not enough talk about smaller towns and what needs to be done and how important it is. Because absolutely everybody deserves to live in a great human habitat. Absolutely everybody should have a sense of pride for their town. It doesn't matter the size. Like, it's— everybody should experience a sense of community everywhere. And, you know, a lot of this work and talk about it, it just, it seems to be around bigger cities. So I think it's incredibly important, um, that you're having, uh, creating those conversations in smaller towns. One last thing I want to say to that end is like, I think what drives me so much in this work is that a bunch of passionate people all around the country wanted to help their community and got involved in some way. Like, this is really what, what I'm trying to help is that anybody that's, you know, run for office or, you know, volunteer and gets in this position or that position, they probably saw that their community wasn't operating very healthy, that it wasn't creating the outcomes that they wanted. They saw that something was wrong. They got involved. And then they just get bad advice. You know, they just get this sort of stupid banker fiscal golf guy advice, right? You know, like, yeah, right, like reduce the cost and beauty is bullshit. And so, you know, it's just fiscal and we've got to attract investment in jobs. Like, stop, stop, stop. Don't listen to those people, please. No one's an expert in this stuff more than, than you. No one knows, like, if you are sentient human, if you experience joy, if you look at something and say, that's beautiful, if you are in an environment that makes you feel good, if you like to be around other people, if there's certain places you go that make you happier, like, then you're an expert. Like, literally everyone that is alive and that has emotions is an absolute expert in city planning, in economic development, in tourism, whatever, community development, all of those. Like, If you enjoy something, you can be pretty damn sure that everybody else does. So you're an expert right there. Make those decisions.

Yeah, right.

Just make those decisions. Like, you don't need— please stop hiring people except me and Rebecca. But no, like, you don't need to keep hiring people to interpret this stuff for you. You don't need necessarily have to have a plan or find an economic development expert to unlock the mysteries of city. Like, they're human habitats. If they bring you joy, if they make you feel connected, If a decision makes you feel proud about your community, then that's a win. That's a victory. And an initiative of a project, if a piece of real estate, whatever it is, doesn't make you feel good, if it doesn't make you feel proud, if it doesn't bring joy to your heart, if it doesn't spark, you know, spark joy or whatever it is, don't do it. And if you continue to make a series of decisions that make your community better, happier, more connected, like that is— it's really, really obvious and it's really simple. Make a bunch of decisions that make your, like, everybody in your community feel a little more proud. And over time, you'll have an incredible place.

I love it. I love it so much. That's something that every single person is capable of. Like, every single person can do, right? See something that makes you sad and make it a little bit better and just keep doing that. And over time, yeah, it will get better.

That's it.

Thank you, Jeff. Seriously.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure.

Okay, well, you're going to come back and we're going to do like a big book tour. It's going to be so great. September 1st, your city is sick.

Yes. Yeah, we're going to do an interview. We're going to do an interview about—

it's going to be— yeah, it's going to be awesome. I can't wait for that. So thank you so much again for coming on again. Thank you for seeing— for me, I want to thank you especially, and I don't know if I properly did that when we were in person, but your perspective on that situation with me it almost hits you harder. And that was really— I really appreciated that because again, I just kind of go, I'm being sensitive. Like, is this okay or what's happening exactly? And again, it was just nobody specifically is at fault, but we're all at fault. I think that's part of it too. It's like, okay, do we want to be better or do we not? And I really want us to be better because I think there's a lot we can learn from each other and Connection is always better than division, so I'm all for it.

Yeah, there are a lot of blind spots on display, and it had a— it was a little uncomfortable, but it, you know, it also like you realize like, yeah, it goes— cuts both ways, and we have to be better.

We have to be better. So thank you for being a good human.

Well, I appreciate it. I'm trying.

Yeah, same, same. Come back soon, Jeff. That's what I want to say.

All right, can't wait. Thanks for having me on.