121. Rural By Choice with Cory Hepola

Our guest on today's episode is Cory Heppler. Cory is an award-winning journalist who lives outside of the Twin Cities with his family in Minnesota, and he is one of the creative minds behind the YouTube documentary series called Rural by Choice. And so, of course, Cory and I dive into that. As soon as he and I connected the first time, I immediately went out and basically binged the entire series. And then promptly reached out and said, please come and talk to me about this. And so this conversation, we really do cover a lot of ground, but I have a feeling you're going to really enjoy the depth of this conversation, the nuance of the conversation. One of the things Corey is very passionate about is doing whatever he can to kind of bridge that divide between urban and rural America. And so we have a big conversation about the fact that we're more alike than we're not.. And when it comes to where we live and what we desire and what we deserve in the places we call home, there's a lot of commonality. And so beautiful conversation. You're going to hear his intellect. He's very smart, but he's also just extremely compassionate and incredibly relatable. And I loved this conversation, so I hope you do as well. Without further ado, friends, meet my new friend Corey Hepler. Well, hey Corey, welcome to the show.

So glad to be here. Thank you, Rebecca.

Oh my goodness. So you're one of those people that came into my world through— I would call it a mutual connection. Maybe my name got mentioned to you when you were visiting the Fargo area here in North Dakota. And then I went on just a rabbit hole. I watched everything that you produced. So I'm super, super happy to have you.

Yeah, I'm so thankful to be here too. And can we say the group? Can I say the group? I'm so thankful for the Kilbourne Group in Fargo.

You absolutely can. Yep. Shout out to the Kilbourne Group.

And the work that they are doing that really helps inspire our communities. And so, and by the way, you have such a great reputation in the Fargo-Moorhead area. So I was so glad that we were able to connect.

Well, that's sweet. And I, it's funny. Um, so the Kilbourne Group were the developers for Block 9, which is a pretty incredible little block of real estate in downtown Fargo. That's actually where we, I stayed just last week and took in a market outside. And so they, that whole experience for me was part of the inspiration to create a park a gathering space like that right here in my little town across the street. Um, and but so what I said to our local folks was like, you know, in Fargo you've got developers like the Kilbourne Group. Well, we have to be our own Kilbourne Group. Like, you know, when we're in a small place and you're lacking that kind of maybe visionary, that kind of thing that someone's going to say, yep, we want to develop this, then we have to do it ourselves. So we— I talk about the Kilbourne Group often, and they are doing great work. It's incredible.

Yeah. And I look at, you know, I grew up in Perham, so in Minnesota, just an hour east of Fargo-Moorhead. And Fargo-Moorhead was the big city to me, right? Like, totally. We would go there all the time. I would go shopping, school shopping at West Acres. We would go to concerts and games at Concordia where I ended up going to college. But college at Concordia and in that Fargo area, Fargo's totally different today. It is just 20 years later than when I was there. And that's really a credit to all the the community leaders and the businesses that stood up and said, like, no, this is our home and we care. And that's kind of the inspiration for the work that you're doing and I'm doing too.

Absolutely. So let's talk a bit about the documentary series that you created. So it's really fun because I had Eric on the podcast before. And then, I mean, that's crazy that at that time we didn't talk about you specifically as a human. And I just— so it's crazy and great that we finally got to meet. But I really loved Rural by Choice. So can we talk a bit? Of course, this will go in the show notes, guys. If you're listening to this and you're like, what's that? We'll make it easy for you to find. But can you talk to me a bit about how it got started? Maybe just a little bit about your intersection with this work because you aren't in a small town anymore, correct? Yeah, correct.

And I think what's important even to— and I appreciate the kind words. And I think what's important is to kind of back it up and even tell the story of how it led to that too.

Yeah, please.

Important. I mean, I grew up in Perham, went to college at Concordia. I knew at 8 years old exactly what I wanted to do. All I ever wanted to do was be in broadcast journalism. Rebecca, I'm not kidding. At 8 years old, I told my parents that I'm going to be a TV news anchor in Minneapolis. I just, I knew, like, and I was laser focused with it.

I have to stop you, and I know it won't take you off track. I think that is the most fascinating thing. I do. I just think to have, and again, because I have children, like, all 3 of my children are beyond 8 years old. So I've seen every single one of them at 8. I can't imagine one of my kids knowing it the way you knew it. And you also— I think you told me that you had sticky notes of— your room was plastered with— what was it? Was it just future— what did you have all over your walls? You had said that you were just kind of obsessed with it that year.

I wrote down goals on my wall.

That's absolutely incredible.

I shouldn't say on the wall. They were— yes, they were—

Like on sticky notes or pieces of paper attached to the wall. Sure.

The news anchor in Minneapolis, that one happened, right? I will admit I also had one that said I want to play basketball for the Gophers one day.

Sure, that would be the kind of goal I'm used to hearing in an 8-year-old, right?

That didn't happen. Uh, it turns out you actually have to be, you know, semi-talented to be able to do that, and I didn't quite make it there. But I was 8 years old, I ran out of the dentist office, uh, was very upset, and my mom was like, what happened? Everything okay? And I said, well, the dentist said I need to brush better and, and otherwise I'll get a cavity and I'm on the road to a cavity. And mom, if I get a cavity, I won't be able to be a news anchor in, in Minneapolis. Like, of course misguided on a number of different levels. You could have a cavity and probably, uh-huh.

And still be hireable.

But he, he told that story and that, and I remember it. I vividly remember it. But that's how laser focused I was. It took me to Concordia because I knew Fargo-Moorhead TV market. I mean, I was one of those nerds that throughout like middle school and high school, I would flip back and forth between all the stations in Fargo. We would also get a couple of them from Minneapolis. So I would like go, what's the difference? Who's having what story and what are they covering?

And like, can I ask, so from that time period, who was your favorite news anchor?

Ed Schultz.

Really? Oh, that's so cool. I grew up watching Ed Schultz.

And what's interesting is Dana Mock took over for him and was still watching Dana Rocket at WDAY. And so, and Kevin Wollivand is from Otter Tail County too. And so I've known Kevin for a very long time, but Ed was my guy to begin with because he was in sports at the very early start when I remembered him. And he would host like basketball games at Concordia. And there were these high school teams from North Dakota, but also Minnesota. And he would just make the event so big.

Yeah.

And you would see like these small towns from all over our region. Everybody would just pile into Memorial Auditorium at Concordia and Ed would make it bigger. Here under the big lights. And I remember watching this on TV being like, I gotta be there. Like, I just, I gotta be there. And so I grew up really looking up to Ed and then wanting to be at Concordia because of that.

So, so cool.

And then my first job was, I was a junior in college at Concordia, interned at the CBS station in Fargo at that point, Ed, where Ed had worked at one point. Mm-hmm. And, uh, they ended up hiring me back and I was anchoring the sports on the weekend and still going to school full-time. I was a junior in college. And so, but that only lasted a year. I, the station was being folded. It was bought by a different company. And they ended up laying off a bunch of people, myself included. And so I was kind of kicked out. And I always say that I had a plan for my life, but the Lord said, look, I got to kick you out. Like, my plan was, you're going to be in Fargo, you're going to be at your home, and then, you know, I'm going to go to Minneapolis. But the Lord said, you got to go and experience. So I got laid off and I applied 150 different applications before I finally ended up in Helena, Montana. Wow. And so I was out there for 2 and a half years and then upstate New York for about 3 years and then got to another station in Rochester, New York, then Austin, Texas, Houston, Texas, and then back home to Minneapolis in 2015. So Rebecca, sorry, this is a really long—

No, you're good. I think it's interesting, Corey, really.

It'll pay off. So I got to KARE 11 in 2015. So think about this. I'm doing exactly what I wanted my life to do. Exactly. I mean, living the dream. In fact, in college, my professors were like, look, we believe in you, but don't you wanna have a backup plan? Like, this is, you know, cuz I just was solely focused on getting to Minneapolis and that's what I wanted. And we did it. And I was there, very blessed, very thankful, and anchoring the news. And we were doing really well. In terms of our team and ratings and, and all of that. Everything was great. But in 2017, it just felt this whisper, or I could hear this whisper inside that just said, you're not to be doing this the rest of your life. And I, I just couldn't explain it. I didn't really know what, but I just decided that I'm going to start to listen to this whisper. And so I developed really this process that I call Learn, Listen, Mission, learn more about myself, really ripped it down and started to listen more to how maybe the Lord was inspiring me or speaking to me internally. And then just kind of like plant seeds of goodness out there, figure out my mission, which is to unite urban and rural America and just kind of see where that leads. Planted a bunch of seeds and one of those seeds came back kind of unexpectedly. But in 2019, Eric Osberg, who you've had on the show, He works with Otter Tail County and he reached out to me and said, hey, um, we've got this problem and it's that we know the data shows that there are people, uh, young adults in that 30 to 50 range who are either thinking about moving to rural and or have done it but don't really know where to start or just need some encouragement and they're not really thinking about Otter Tail County. They're not thinking about Otter Tail County as a place to visit or even to maybe raise a family. And he said, we could do tourism videos, but who watches tourism videos? And what does that even mean really anymore? I'm not gonna get in the tourism video business, but it just was— I couldn't agree more. Like, they can be a waste of resources because the only people that end up watching them are the people who create them.

That's right.

He said, what, you have any ideas? And, um, we kind of put our heads together, but I went back to him with a pitch that said, how about this? How about we tell an authentic story? How about we do a documentary? And I said, here's the honest to God truth. I'm 40 and I am married and I have 3 young kids and I'm constantly in my mind thinking, am I living joyfully right now? Am I where I'm supposed to be? Would moving home create more joy? Would that be a better experience for our family? I'm constantly thinking about those things. So what if we did that? And also, I'm not your typical quote unquote Otter Tail County guy. Like I grew up on a lake, but I don't fish, I don't hunt, I don't do any of the things that make Otter Tail County unique. So why don't I go back? I love where I grew up. I love my home. I still call it my forever home, but what do I really know about it?

Mm-hmm.

So we go back, we look at the county through that lens of Now I'm 40. Now I'm thinking about moving back here, but what do I really know? And so I go and I meet with community leaders who kind of show me around and get me to experience different things. And, but what really is cool about it, yes, all that's cool, but what really is cool about it is we, and this is to Eric's credit, he said, we can give this thing some teeth. Okay. We don't have to make these tourism videos, like ask tough questions, like pose big thoughts. And we did, and we just decided we'll see where it goes. And so we really tackle those larger themes about living in rural Minnesota.

Right. I wouldn't say that I'm a harsh critic. I do watch things with kind of a critical eye, maybe. I'm looking for that exact thing that you and Eric identified. You maybe didn't completely identify. It's this nebulous thing of, like, what's off about the typical approach to these things? I feel the same way about traditional economic development practices as I do tourism. There was like a traditional way that we went about doing these things, and then at some point the results of those traditional methods kind of starts to wane. And if we don't reinvent that or we don't take a different approach, right, we just keep doing the same thing and wondering why nothing's changing. And so when I first went out and started watching it, I mean, I was— I have to tell you, it was like I was immediately delighted because you as a human are, um, the humility and vulnerability that you have to take on to put yourself in a position to just look so dumb about things. And I don't mean that like you're a dumb human, but it's that you don't hunt, you don't fish, you don't do these things. And so you have to put yourself in that position to just be like, I'm an open book and I'm here to learn and I'm here to try and to actually film that. I loved the style of it. I mean, it was a little bit, you know, you to camera. I thought, I just thought it was a really, it was just really cool. Honestly, one of the coolest visual storytelling series that I've seen. And so, yeah, I hope everybody listening to this for sure goes out and watches it.

But yeah, well, I really appreciate that. And I'll tell you though, the best comments that we received about it, because we didn't know it was really shoestring budget.

Yep.

Um, and we really worked really well as a team and we put this out there. Very limited marketing. Like, we didn't really do anything to boost it or anything. We just put it on YouTube and Facebook, and it took off. It took off. But I think what people responded to was that vulnerability that you talked about, larger themes that we discussed, because I think everybody can relate to what did I appreciate or not appreciate about where I grew up.

Yeah.

You always hit a certain age and you start reflecting upon your youth.

I think so. I think every single one of us does that. I do.

And if you've moved away, you're always thinking about whether or not it's, should I move back home, or would I do well there, or what? Like, so I think those themes really hit. But I'll tell you the other part of it too was that, and this goes along with my mission, is that I look at rural America right now, and it's unfortunate because there are not people who are advocating or championing for these communities.

Agreed.

And so that was a part of what we wanted to do. And it's not necessarily, hey, this is better, or that is better, or this is better. It's more or less introducing the idea to people who may not know it existed or have a popular misconception about it or may have a negative stereotype about it but have never experienced it. And that was really our purpose, was to say, hey, look, Maybe this is out here and maybe this is the perfect place for you and you didn't even know it existed. And how great is that? You can have work-life balance here, right?

It's so interesting, you know, everything that you just said about, so this urban and rural divide, the episode that'll air probably right before this one, um, I just recorded it with Jeff last week. We reflected on an experience, a recent experience of mine where I went to Richmond, Virginia. For a speaking engagement. And I was met with a very East Coast lens on who I might be as a person. And this played out in real time. And Jeff, as a guy from Pittsburgh, caught it. And I'm only telling you this because what we're talking about, it's— I think it is perpetuated by people that have never been here. And by here, I mean anywhere that looks like Perham, Minnesota, or Oakes, North Dakota. I live in this small town. I live in a town of 1,800 people in flyover country. There's air quotes around that. You know, the places where people just go, yeah, you just maybe look down on it from a plane, but you don't stop. You don't go there. And there are people living meaningful, rich, you know, vibrant lives in these states that so few people know about except maybe the soundbites that they've heard. And the soundbites that get picked up in a national level are generally extreme. Because that's the only thing that they wanna pick up, right? They're not picking up the mundane, daily, regular stuff that all of us are doing. And that's why your documentary to me was so important. Because you were talking about big themes, but you were showing it through very ordinary, and by ordinary, I'd say that is in no way a negative thing, just very ordinary people doing very ordinary things. And I just think that's a really important thing that isn't being shown. Enough.

Well, thank you, and I appreciate that. And you know, that was on purpose. Like, we wanted to show— because if people are gonna live there, it's in a rural community, we don't want to show the weekend of the year that it's like— in Perm we have Turtle Fest. Yeah, right, that's awesome, great. Like, there's parades and fireworks and all that. But you know what, like, if you're going to choose to live there, you're going to choose to live there because on Tuesday night you can go fishing and just, you know, on a Tuesday night, right? Or you can go hunting on the weekend. It's not like this big vacation that you have to plan and take time off from work. It's—

yeah. And that's the challenge with traditional tourism approaches too, by the way. I think, you know, if we're highlighting this one thing that isn't reflective of daily life here, then we're missing that opportunity to talk about the other 364 days of the year, you know, besides that one day. So I just thought it was a really, a really neat approach. And I do think there's a lot of us that wrestle with it. I would say that for people that, at least this is my perspective, there's a lot of people that didn't enjoy their upbringing in my community or your community, right? Those folks aren't reflecting on whether they should come back here cuz they, they shook the dust of the sandals of this town and they moved on. And, and that's okay. I think it's recognizing that there's this huge audience of people that loved their upbringing and that have these thoughts. And yet, for whatever reason, there's things in their brain, whether it's society or whether it's, you know, just maybe it's self-contracts that they made with themselves. That was a big thing for me. I didn't make a contract with myself that I'd never move back here, but I had a contract with myself about how I wanted to show up in the world, and I couldn't reconcile that with Oaks as a context. If that makes sense. But the context between when I graduated from high school and now has completely changed. And who I am now, I wouldn't have been able to do work, you know, like the way you and I are communicating right now didn't exist when I graduated from high school, Corey. So it's really a phenomenal thing. I think we all have to recognize that so much has changed in just 20 quick years. Yeah. That those conversations, if people are having them, we wanna draw those things out. And talk to them about what life can look like now. And not just day-to-day life, but career-wise too, because I think that's where people get hung up a lot of times, right?

100%. And I think this goes along with the point that you made earlier about the narrative. You go out to Virginia and people have this, oh, North Dakota, eh? You know, like it's—

they did all of that and then some, right?

It's really unfortunate. But I think One of the things that we have to do in the Upper Midwest, so I say the Upper Midwest because that's the work that we're doing at the Brookshire Company. And, but one of the things that we have to do in the Upper Midwest is we have to start to own the narrative. And a part of that narrative is to forget being so humble. Um, like the aw shucks. Yeah, we're, we're pretty good up here. No, if you look at the demographics and some of the changing demographics in terms of the population. And, you know, in Minnesota, we are very much stagnant in our growth. We have to own the narrative and tell people, no, this is a really great place to live. Like, it is. It's awesome. Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, even Wisconsin, I guess.

I mean, it's Montana, even though they tend to get like, once you get west in that big giant state, it feels more like the west west. But still, you know, all of these states around us, I totally agree. This modesty and this humility, it's a disservice to us because we're not speaking up for ourselves. That's maybe a different way to think about it, right? We don't have to brag about ourselves, we have to stand up for ourselves and speak out for ourselves because that upper bigger picture narrative is going to continue to push that. And why wouldn't they, especially when we come around with election cycles, right? It's every time that's what happens. And And I guess it's such a cool— I just am so appreciative of the fact that you took such an authentic approach, first of all, and that you allowed yourself to be at the center of it in terms of the person going through it because it was just incredibly relatable, which I think is exactly why it struck such a chord with so many people.

Well, and I know that it is hard. Like you mentioned it, it's hard because we do like to be humble here and all of that. Because we work hard and we don't really want to, you know, most people don't want to tell other people how great they are. So let me do that for you. Like, like, I'm good at that. Like, I can tell people's story very, very well. And I can go in and diagnose and say, like, here are the 3 things that make you different. This is special. Like, you should champion that. And so, like, the work that we're doing at the Brookshire Company, that's just a piece of it. But we're really helping these, you know, these rural communities with not only job creation, but access to different healthcare and housing and childcare. And so, but it's really at that intersection where, and you're living proof too in Oaks. I know that there's really great business partners in and around Oaks and in the region.

Mm-hmm.

But that's what it takes. Like these rural communities, the ones that are really thriving, it's when they kind of understand that the companies that are there, they choose to be there for a reason. And it's because this is the best place on the planet to be. You can have work-life/service balance. You can play a critical role in our growth, but it's also understanding that it's not just about us, it's about all of us in here together. And that's the work that is so inspiring that you're doing, that we're also doing at the Brookshire Company. And it's fun to see your work in North Dakota and ours in that upper Midwest in Minnesota too.

Yeah, well, I just think it's just so needed.

Yeah.

You know, there are people in these Every little town, if it exists, it exists because of people doing really great things. It's humans that make places great places to live. Um, and so just to find ways to celebrate that and tell those stories, that's why this podcast exists. We randomly get to meet people and they're in small towns all over the place, and it's— there's so many ways to make a living now too. That's a very interesting shift, you know, whether you want to call it the gig economy or however you want to kind of think about it. It truly is amazing to be able to be anywhere in the world and have access to a global marketplace for whatever your idea is or your service or your product or your goods. It's just, it's really, really cool.

I wanna see what you think about this because at least from my experience, what I find too, and if we go back to the part of where this conversation started from was basically the narrative, the narrative being kind of broken for rural America and how there's all these popular misconceptions. So if we go back there, I don't find that in my interactions with like maybe 90% of actual human beings that there is that sort of like, oh, you're from the country, that must mean— I really don't experience that. Even people who I interact with daily here in the metro in Minneapolis-St. Paul, they don't think like that. I have always felt that that narrative is really perpetuated by the two political parties.

I agree.

And to keep, look, this is our base. You need to own it. This is that. When I speak with people, whether they're in the cities or in small towns, people are nuanced. People get it.

Right.

But the political parties, they want to politicize it so that they can stay in power and continue to own it. And they're the ones that continue to divide. And that's where I just, I've had enough. I'm like, we need more uniters and we need more positive people. And so that's where the work that you're doing, I really appreciate it. And the work that we're doing too is, I think is so critical and important because it reflects the actual human goodness that is out there.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. This particular experience that I had, I don't experience that everywhere. Um, that's why it was so stark. It was such a dark thing to experience. And Jeff and I debriefed it because it's fascinating. He actually said, you know, we're sitting at this table of people that should have felt like my people, and he put air quotes around that too, right? Like, even politically. But he said, and then they treated you as if you were an other. And we talked about that. Like, if you actually just sit down and talk to somebody, the biggest thing that they lacked in that conversation was curiosity. So I would say that that's absolutely one of our biggest tools. That's for every single person. Instead of thinking, you know, or making that assumption of that a person standing in front of you is going to reflect exactly what you've been told they'll be, just ask a question or two. Like, all of the feelings that I had about that conversation would have been completely eliminated if they had just asked some questions. Instead, they made statements, and then I was in a posture to have to say, well, I had to educate, you know, instead of just— there wasn't curiosity about who I am, right? It was super fascinating. And I also told Jeff, like, if that had happened 3 years ago, I would have crumbled under that, you know, in real time. I would have just shut down. And instead, I decided to engage in— I would just, would, like, catch them and say, yeah, well, no, that's not really what it's like at all. And it was just really fascinating. But I do— I think, like you said, we politicize everything, and then we push it to the extremes because that's sellable. It's both sellable, it's bankable, it's hireable, it's electable. It's the things that, you know, and then there's just this giant glut of us actually living life in the middle somewhere, and it doesn't look anything like those extremes. And so that's a really challenging thing to resist against, I think.

You know, so yeah, where the 75 to 80% live in that sort of center You know, so you brought up even just the, about Roe v. Wade and the narrative that we had and, and how the news cycle goes to the extremes and stuff. And having worked in news, right, I completely get it. And it was really one of the reasons, one of many reasons why, I mean, my purpose led me to a different direction, but it was a reason where I'm not meant for this. I'm also by nature, I'm like, really optimistic. And, uh, I was in kind of a cynical industry for a very long time. And that cynicism is good too. It's needed. Like, we need journalists and we need journalism so that our leaders are held accountable.

That is, we need journalism in its proper form.

Correct.

And I feel like it's maybe been a little bit weaponized as an industry or as a profession. I'm— I mean, again, that's a bit of an assumption, so I'll turn that more into a question. I mean, is that some of what you feel like you have seen happen with journalism as a profession?

So I think there's just so many outlets all kind of raising the hand to be like, pay attention to us. But I think, and this is kind of where I was going even from a larger perspective, but we're really in the middle of experiencing a communications crisis. And I think there's two parts to this. I think there's one part that is really kind of innocent. In that. So to use an example, the person I know the best in this world is my wife. I talk to her every day. I see her every day. We spend a lot of time together. We've been best friends before we were, you know, engaged and married. So like, I know her extremely well. But if you think about how we communicate in the world, okay, so Rebecca, you and I have actually never met in person. Correct. So just think if we met in person, we'd have all the context of me entering the room or you entering the room or having this context of all the asides. We'd see each other. We'd have the nonverbals. We'd have the tone.

Right.

It's great. Like, this is the closest that you can do to replicate that. This being Zoom, right?

Like, correct.

You can see that I use my hands a lot. You can hear the tone in my voice. Yep. You can hear all of that, right?

I can see your smile, right? Yeah. Like, all of it. I get it.

Yeah. So if I'm on the phone, You're gonna miss the smile, you're gonna miss the hand gestures, but you're gonna get the tone and the energy. Now, the primary form of communication today, yep, is text.

Mm-hmm.

And text, you don't get any of that. You don't get the nonverbal, you don't get any of the context, you don't get any of the tone. And so my wife will text me in the afternoon, and if she doesn't use punctuation, I'm going projecting now. Uh-oh, what happened?

Ooh, yeah. Or, ooh, she's not doing great today, or something. Yeah, for sure.

And then as her husband, I'm like, what did I do? What did I do wrong? But no, but if she uses an exclamation point or an emoji, I'm like, this is great. She's in a great mood. Something great happened, whatever. Now, I'm completely projecting, right? I have no idea.

Correct.

Now, rip away the fact that this is the person I know best in the world. Now strangers are communicating through text.

That one.

And on social media.

Correct.

And now you have all this ripe opportunity for misunderstanding.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's created a lot of confusion. Now I think that that is, that's just a product of text communication. I think that's more innocent. But to your point, there is a whole side of this that is being weaponized. And a part of that is to, hey, look at me, look at me. So I think about the news and even the non sort of news that kind of maybe tours as a news organization, right? Or is like kind of an imposter in that space, but they're using headlines to get you to click. And a lot of people don't click, but then they assume that they know the story when they haven't even read the story. So you have that going on. You have opinion places masked as journalism and news. And that's confusing people and/or people are gravitating towards the place where they feel safe. And then on top of it, you have these big tech companies that, I mean, their whole goal is to keep you on the phone the whole time and the dings keep you going. So it's like, what'll keep them going? Well, I understand their algorithm. Let's push a ding here. Let's push this here. So we are being really taken advantage of and it's it's in a non-healthy space. And so we really need people to be— I'll go back to the core value you talked about— curious. Like, you need to take some ownership of it and really kind of have some self-awareness. And even when people see a video that may be upsetting or they see a post that may be upsetting, to take a breath and really have to ask the question, okay, well, who posted it? And this is the unfortunate thing. Who posted it? Could it have been edited? What was the purpose of this post? That gives the context. So it's that curiosity. That's the only way through this, I'm afraid.

I agree. I agree. And I love this whole conversation about communication. As an org development consultant, I still take on client work. I mean, we talk about this very thing, even just from the standpoint that if as businesses, you know, for, if I'm usually when I'm, if I'm talking to a client, they're a larger, maybe regional business, right? Most of them have some sort of a footprint in rural America or they wouldn't be working with me probably, right? And we talk about the fact that if you as a strong anchor organization on a main street in a small town, if your folks aren't leading the way in communication when you have all of these resources to be better, like we have to be better. Those of us that have the resources actually have to be better. And I don't mean better than, I'm talking from a communication standpoint and how easy it is to just slip into texting or emailing. I mean, emailing, it's the professional texting, but it's still just fraught with miscommunication. And so my general thing with that is if there's any emotional attachment to this conversation, at a minimum, pick up the phone, you know, at a minimum. If you can't sit down face to face with them or do Zoom where you get that kind of more of that context, Man, I mean, it's just, I, I don't think we even can begin to fathom the cost of miscommunication.

Yep.

Due to just the push for email. It's a fascinating thing, but I, I think that's something, again, that's technology. And so instead of like fighting against it, we have to just constantly challenge ourselves to still use it in an appropriate way and think about how to be better.

I do find it, and that's why I think it goes back to the value that you shared about curiosity because I think it's only going to get more difficult with artificial intelligence and ChatGPT and those tools because now there's going to be great ways to utilize these things and they're going to be of great help and they can make us be more efficient, all of that. But it certainly can be weaponized too. And I think you've already seen that in the political realm with, you know, deepfakes becoming more prominent. I know that school districts are already very concerned about, wait, we ask a student to do a report, how do we not know they're just getting it from ChatGPT. And so how do we distinguish between what's real and what's not? Lawyers, same thing. Like, how do we know this text chain wasn't just completely made up? And then there's impo— so there's a lot of things that we have to be careful of as a result of these. And then of course, you think at a higher level with, you know, in terms of our government and how we keep our homeland safe and protected and election secure, all that stuff. I mean, we just— it's— so we created this tool that, yes, it has all of these really neat things that it can be really helpful, but at what cost? Sometimes you have to kind of ask yourself too.

Yeah, definitely. And I think the interesting thing— and again, I too tend to be an optimist, right? I want to see hope in situations. And so when it comes to education, I just think that the question then becomes, how do we change the measurement of their learning? You know, maybe how we're asking them to prove that they're learning the material has to shift. And again, that's a big, big question, and I'm not suggesting— I don't have any answers, but I think that's a good question to ask because I just generally think that, you know, we can innovate I think there's a lot of opportunity for us to innovate in a lot of these institutional kinds of things like education in particular. The way we used to do it isn't going to hold up anymore. And that's scary. I mean, that's scary for everybody that's in education. It's maybe scary for parents, all of it. But we really do have to figure out, I think, how to adapt and still, still teach our kids even on the home front, right? To teach them the things we want them to know, help them understand how to use these tools, how to do them in a way that's positive. How to be aware of the influence of it. I mean, all of that, it's— as a parent even, I think it's just, it can be mind-blowing.

Totally. And you bring up a really great point, and I think that this— your audience will really appreciate this too, because the way that I look at it too, when we were, you know, through high school and then going through college, and of course even before that, it was, you know, learn this thing, start in this industry, And then if you're lucky, in 40 years you will climb the ladder to a leadership position, right? In that specific field. That model's outdated. And now there's still, of course, a place for more than ever actually, but learning a skill, becoming really good at it, learning a trade, becoming really good at it. And I think the way we talk about college has shifted and should shift where—

Agreed.

It's not necessarily like Okay, what college are you going to? It becomes more of a, no, what's your purpose? What excites you? And we can put you on that track. However, for some of the kids that are on that 4-year track, or, you know, they want a career in some other field, it's not so much anymore go into an industry, climb the ladder. I think more and more, and this is what can really benefit rural communities, is that I don't know about you, I was able to be in basketball, cross country, baseball, National Honor Society, the band. I was interested in so many different things. So that's always kind of kept me, like, just prepared me in a unique way because I understood things about a lot of different things. Never an expert at really anything outside of probably communication, but like, I knew a little about a lot of different things, right? And That's where I see work headed.

I agree. Oh man, I agree.

It is more on that. It's like, how are you listening and learning about yourself and preparing? Because it's not just about, do you check this box on LinkedIn and say like, yes, okay, yes, I can do that. No, like my experience in this over here actually prepares me for this because I bring all these other skills and you already have people that can do this.. And so I think that really encouraging young people to think like that, a little bit abstract and outside the box, but don't just think like you're in this silo because work is not siloed anymore.

Yeah. I love, well, this is one of my favorite conversations actually. Like, so I just told you we did this bus tour just yesterday.

Yeah.

And so we have these leaders on this bus and we always have them introduce themselves as we're driving down the road, right? The bus. This bus— and this bus, normally we have the last few years, we've had a handheld mic. This bus had like a CB radio, which was delightful and hilarious. But they had to physically get out of their seat and walk up. Anyway, it was fine. But this year, because we were focusing on the stewardship of their talent, they were not allowed to tell us where they worked. In their introduction, I actually said, because I have a feeling where you work and what you do for a living is probably the least interesting thing about you. And again, it's not to say that work doesn't matter. I just, I really do think that this idea of being a Renaissance man or woman, that idea of just being really well-rounded— isn't even quite the right word— but just diverse in thought, diverse in experience, diversity, openness, open-mindedness and heartedness. These are like things that we can cultivate. Every single person can cultivate it. And that's, I think, super important for our kids.

Yep.

It really is. Like, everything that a person's experienced personally, professionally, that's what makes them who they are. And those are all things that can be drawn upon. And that's why no two workers in even the exact same job ever perform it exactly the same. Right? It's just— I just think it's a really human-centric way to look at education and to look at learning and then the application of that. Certainly it's clear that we're moving in that direction.

So yeah, I agree. And I think if people really— and I always encourage everybody, you know, learn about yourself, listen to how, you know, whatever that means to you, right? Like, I use prayer, but like prayer, meditation, but really listen to where your life is leading you and then figure out your mission and just go after that because there's so many different spaces where you can do that. That's what brought me to the Brookshire Company. I've never, ever been this joyful. Like, and I think there's a difference between joy and happiness. Happiness is an emotional feeling. Like, it's not that every single day is perfect or everything's gone right or anything, but I've never been more joyful. And it's because of our purpose, like in what we do and how we impact these communities and these businesses and what we're doing in terms of helping businesses grow and expand in the right ways and bringing services to these communities. And also advocating for these communities and these businesses too. It's the perfect set for my skills, a perfect place for my skills. But you know what? If I hadn't been open to it, I never would've landed here, right? I would keep working.

Yeah. And that's why I love your story so much. Again, because you were 8 years old and you knew what you wanted. And I think it takes a lot of courage, personal courage to achieve a goal And when that moment hits you that you realize that, man, this, you know, either like so thankful for this and at the same time, this doesn't feel like the right thing anymore. That can be a very hard thing to be confronted with. And that could be a personal belief. It could be the achievement of a goal. It, again, I call those self-contracts, right? Like we make these things up in our brain at some point and we said that we're gonna do something or be something, and then it can be really hard to change your mind. But changing your mind is absolutely a part of staying open-minded, open-hearted, and curious about the world, right? It is definitely a countenance that people carry. And I think it's one to— I absolutely think it's one to encourage in everybody.

And I think that too, you know, the world is so much less mobile, like 25, 30, 40, 50 years, that now, you know, young people— and you don't even have to be young, but, you know, just a society in general can pick up and move. And so what you're doing today might not be what you're going to do in 5 or 10 years. And that's totally okay.

That's why it really is. Yeah.

Just really listen inside and figure out your personal mission because, um, that's what'll bring joy and that's where that, that large impact will come too.

Well, and this is why I think, you know, this discussion about education along with it then comes like the whole profession of guidance counselors or career counselors. That profession has to shift. I mean, their approach to this has to shift because, you know, when I, when I was graduating from college and I was putting my resume together, right, thinking about, you know, the things that I would put— if I had to build a resume now for myself, I mean, first of all, I just can't even imagine trying to do that. But the things that I would want to call out wouldn't necessarily be the last 4 jobs I had. And so I just think that that's such an interesting time that We really are. We're hiring humans. We're not hiring qualifications. And so it really does come down to, you know, who are you in the workplace? Not just what exact specific skills do you bring to the table, but, you know, how do you think? How do you process? How do you communicate? How do you dream? How do you hope? What do you believe in? Like, those things matter more than ever.

Amen. I totally agree. And I think the other part of it too is that And this is one of the messages I usually bring up when, um, I speak with kind of younger people, but it's important how you tell your story too. It comes easier for some people. I'm really good at it, but defining that moment in your life or that thing that mattered to you or whatever. And when you're meeting with somebody, that's what makes you jump off the page. So as you talk about like the resume, you know, once you start being able to meet with people and, and if you're looking for a new career or a job shift or whatever, And people say, well, you haven't really done that. That's your opportunity to say, well, no, I actually have. And then I also have done this and be able to flesh it out with a story that says, here's how I did this and here's how I did this. Or even just talking about that moment in your life that was so incredibly purposeful for you and why this job matters to you. But it's important to be able to tell your story because Jesus used parables and we all still talk about them, right?

Correct.

Stories work.

Yeah. Oh, Cori, it's so delightful to talk to you. And this is really fun, the fact that we've never met in person. We will one day. I feel confident about that. And then it's just going to be like old friends getting together, and that's just the best. So I can't thank you enough for your time today. Thank you for the work that you did. I encourage everybody listening to this to go out and watch Rural by Choice. I literally made a pot of coffee and just sat down on my couch and And I actually called my husband and I was like, you need to come and watch this. And then he said, wait, he was like, you were like a celebrity to him. He's like, wait, you know that guy? I said, I haven't met him in person. I said, but yep, we've talked. So it's really, really important work. And I'm so glad that you listen to your intuition or listen to that voice, listen to that calling, because you're exactly where you're meant to be for now. That's for sure.

No. Well, thank you. And I just really appreciate the work that you're doing too. And so it's just been a joy. Like, this has just been a joy to kind of get to know you better and, and to be a, a guest on your show. And thank you for all the kind words. And Rural by Choice is, I am so incredibly grateful to the people at, uh, Otter Tail County, including most notably Eric, who really, I went to them with an idea that had never been done before. And I said, I have no proof of concept. I just know it'll work inside. You have to trust me. And they said, okay, let's go for it. It takes it.

It's amazing.

And it takes innovative thinking to be able to have that sort of impact. And, and we did. I mean, I just looked up this morning and they continue to grow. People still respond to it. 750,000 views, you know, and that's with absolutely incredible no budget, you know, and no marketing really. And a couple of accounts that did not have a ton of followers on it. And so that just to show that.

Yeah, that's another fun takeaway to leave with everybody, is that if you can find one person— if you have an idea that feels that out there, you know, again, just kind of by what's been done in the past, and you can find one person to get behind you, do it. You know, again, we can't actually push any boundaries if we don't try something new. And so there's that challenge, right, of just How do new precedents get set if we don't ever do anything different? So it's really super inspiring just to know that you actually said that out loud. No proof of concept. I believe this is going to work. And it showed itself to be true. I think a lot of people have ideas like that, Corey. And so hopefully this will be an inspiration or encouragement to them to pursue it because we need, right? We need people chasing down their big ideas. It's, it's really neat.

And don't be afraid to fail. I've failed so many times, but I've learned and grown and, and it's led me to this. So, yeah.

Well, and come back soon.

Yeah, anytime. No, I'm a big fan of you and, and the work that you're doing. So hopefully we get to see each other in person soon.

Sounds good. Thanks so much, Cory.

Thank you.