127. Past Guest Status Check with Brodie Mueller

Our guest on today's episode is a returning guest, and it's Brody Mueller from the Market on the Plaza in Aberdeen, South Dakota. We are actually kind of looking back into the archives, and so we're kind of debuting this as a where are they now, if you will. It's been a couple of years since we last had Brody on, and we just take this opportunity to catch up with him. He's got a small business in a town of 26,000 people, so not exactly a small, small town, but also not a giant metropolis either. And it's really just fun to catch up with Brody, talk a bit about some of the things that he's learned in the last couple of years and also just his overall perspective on making an impact in his community, which he does a great job with. It's a an honest and real conversation about the challenges of running a small business. And he's again just one of my favorite people. And so enjoy this catch-up episode with our friend Brody Mueller. Well, welcome back to the Growing Small Towns show, Brody Mueller.

What is going on, Rebecca? So it's been a hot second since we have talked, so I'm really glad you reached out. I think this is super fun.

I do too. So what I love, and again, for our listeners, this is a— we're calling this like a Where Are They Now series just to get an update from some of our favorite guests. And so I'm proud to tell and excited to tell our listeners that you are in your studio. So your podcasting studio is still a thing.

It is.

Let's start there since I just called out the obvious thing that I see. Talk to us about that.

So we're here in Aberdeen, South Dakota, or I am. Rebecca is not, but Aberdeen, South Dakota, sort of north central or northeast of South Dakota. We're a town of about 26,000 people and I own a couple of different businesses here, but the one that I'm sitting in currently is the Pheasant Canteen Podcast Studio. So the quick story about the name, because it's kind of weird, but when World War II was happening and we had to ship soldiers from, well, from this part of the country to the East Coast. They would come through Aberdeen and then the women who worked for the Red Cross would make sandwiches out of pheasant. So obviously South Dakota's big, it's our state bird. So yeah, from what I've heard, the governor like took off all limits and like, just go kill as many pheasants as you can so we can feed our boys. So we are in the depot building that that happened in. And then specifically we're in the room that used to be the museum for the pheasant canteen. So anyway, it's a piece of Aberdeen history, but that's why it's called that. It is the definition of a side hustle. No one's retiring off of this, but we have a couple different podcasts that are produced outta here that it's fun. It's fun to do some little side projects, some little passion projects. And then we have, uh, two full-time podcasts that go outta here as well.

Why don't you plug them?

And trains. Um, okay.

So we, I don't, by the way, I can't hear the train.

I know they, oh, okay.

Sometimes you can on the, yeah, I can hear it.

On the recording, but you're good. So the podcast that we've had here the longest is Shrinkwrap. So it's Shrinkwrap with an R, and it is two local mental health therapists who take a lighthearted look at mental health topics and just events of the day. So they're in their fourth season now. You can find them wherever you find your podcast. One of the new ones that we've picked up, a local sportscaster, Dave Vilhauer. He has the South Dakota Sports Scene. And that is a paid website where you can go get box scores and schedules and interviews with Northeast South Dakota high school and college players. So he does a podcast outta here now too. So they're going on probably 20 episodes and that is going well for them. I've done some of my own podcasts as well. And then weird things like, so my, my best friend from high school used to play and now coaches youth Ultimate Frisbee. And so. He and another coach did the Minnesota Youth Ultimate, or YUP, Minnesota Youth Ultimate podcast, uh, where they talked about— they just kind of broke down the season, and it was really fun because they did it like Rebecca and I are doing it now over Zoom, and then they just sent me the audio file, and then I could split it up and put in player interviews and stuff, and it was a good time. So I mean, they never stepped foot in the studio, but we can still produce it and get it out there for the content.

That's fantastic. Love it. Love it. That's awesome.

You know, the barrier to entry for podcasting is really, it's the equipment, right? And so that's what I was trying to do. And not that everyone wants to be a podcaster, but sometimes it's good just to have some professional, quasi-professional equipment when you need a voiceover or something like that too. So it's, yeah, whatever this room can be used for, it's good.

Your equipment's great. And I've been doing this now for like 4 years and I still, my equipment's still just totally. Kind of ghetto. It's fine because I'm not concerned about it.

But I don't know. Yeah. Well, I think we're past the era of the sterile podcast where everything had to be done in a deathly silent room and you could hear every single breath and all of that. I think we're past that point. And so especially during the pandemic, everybody and their mom started a podcast. So you can sit at your kitchen table and do it. And as long as it's not too distracting, it's just fine.

Right. Okay, well, so there's one, there's one business down. How about an update on the market?

Yeah, so my main squeeze is the Market on the Plaza. So it's a coffee shop, eatery, tap house, and then we also do some locally themed apparel and hats and sweatshirts and stuff like that. So that is going on its third year or so. We're two and a half years now. And that has been, that's a wild ride. It is way more intense than I ever thought it was going to be. It is way more challenging than I ever thought it was going to be. And it's. Especially being in year 3 now, like you're looking for the bottom or trying to figure out like, okay, where do things even out and how do you play the economy and how do you, what is a problem and what's not, you know, and we can kind of go into all of that. But yeah, we're right on Main Street here. We had a 70-year-old furniture store burned down tragically about 5 years ago. And so there was some city entities that bought that land from that family. And so they put a plaza there, which is the first public plaza that Aberdeen has had. And then we are a retail store there. Then there's a radio station and some other offices. So we feel very fortunate that we're right on the shores there of Mao Chow Plaza and, uh, we like it.

So what we'll do in the show notes is like obviously link back to all like our previous episodes. We had a couple of crossover episodes because you had a podcast at that time.

Yep.

But we've kind of told the whole story of the market on the plaza, like how it started, what you guys— and that's quite a ride. So let's, let's talk about it. Like, what have you learned, Brody?

Like, well, I guess the quick and dirty of it is, is that I— so we, my business partner and I at the time, we signed the LLC March of 2020. And then we all remember what happened in April of 2020. Her and I both had separate businesses. So we, everyone just kind of circled the wagons and did what you did in the summer of 2020. So, but we continued to work on it. We kind of had got some of our building figured out. And so anyway, long story short, we opened in April. Essentially May of '21. It was crazy. It was super fun and we learned a lot. But in that experience, my business partner learned that she didn't really wanna do this anymore. So she left and went home and has had two more babies since then.

And right.

We wish her all the best. So for better or worse, I think, yeah, she doubled down on that decision.

I mean, like legitimately. And that's so great, but it is so challenging.

Like, right.

Oh my goodness. And I know that's—

I don't, I don't have, I don't have an MBA. I have a master's, but it's in social work, which doesn't really help me here. And so, well, yes and no. And so like I had to learn and I'm still learning all of the ins and outs of what running a business is like, you know, it's sales tax, it's payroll, it's all of these things. And then on top of that, you're trying to carve out time to do all of those things while you're sometimes literally firefighting within your own business and still trying to figure things out and keep the doors open.

Well, and let's be real, the firefighting, it's like maybe somebody— you're serving the public food. Okay? Right. And I've talked about this to you. You dig the pace and stuff. It overwhelms my brain immediately. I think about trying to run the business that you're running. Every single day, right?

Yes.

And so it literally is like somebody doesn't show up that day, or, you know, suddenly somebody's sick or someone has a sick kid, and then you have to deal with the realities of not having the team you thought you were gonna have. And then no matter what, this brilliant strategy that you maybe had on your plan for the day just kind of gets— yeah, it gets set aside, and then you, you find yourself on the line, like, making sandwiches or whatever.

Exactly. And, you know, I want to be, like, super clear, like, I don't have the problems that many, many, many other people have as far as staffing. Like, my team is phenomenal. And I couldn't do all of it without the team. There's a lot of really great younger kids, even who— kids, college-age adults who they have a lot of buy-in. They see what I'm doing here.

Let's pause there because this would be something, given my background, that I really want to dig into a little bit. Yep. Because you're being very humble and you're saying, I'm fortunate, right? I don't have these problems. I don't have the same problems. I would argue just because of my history with you, the fact that I know you and that some of the conversations that we've had around this topic exactly, that it's not just a fortunate circumstance. I think you're fairly intentional about what the culture of employment looks like for the market. You think a lot about your strengths as a leader, like where and how you show up for people. I think you're very intentional about it. So can we talk just a little bit about what it is that you do. Like, you know, because I think the idea of engaging younger professionals is something that scares a lot of people. It scares a lot of people because it's so much easier just to say, well, like, they're young and they're entitled and they don't work hard. Well, that's missing the bigger picture, and we have to figure it out because they're the next generation of people that are gonna work in all of our organizations.

So we gotta figure it out.

Right there.

Unless you're gonna hire a team full of boomers. I mean, that's, you gotta figure it out.

Right. So I think this is worth spending a little bit of time on. Just because it's such a present issue and challenge for so many people.

So I'm going, I'm gonna attempt to do that. It is difficult for me to do that a little bit just because I wish I could get out my playbook of like, this is how you treat employees well.

Yeah.

But I don't have that. So I am making up a lot of this as I go. But the principles that guide me in that are, we're all adults, right? Like, and I've had even, well, some of the people I employ are not adults, but I'm gonna treat you like that anyway. So if you need a day off, if you're traveling for whatever, if you just let me know and we will sort it out. I am not going to make you show up to work because a request off is just a threat that I'm not going to be there. So, but I need that time as well. So like that was first off is, you know, as far as scheduling goes, you just got to tell me when works and when doesn't, and then we will sort it out around there.

Do you have a PTO policy?

No, no, I don't even have an employee handbook.

So I know, all good, all good. I, I'll ask some of those extra questions because again, I think, and I'm gonna give you credit where it's due because again, you're not like, I'm figuring this out as I go. This is where actually I would argue your social work background is wildly helpful. I do, because you understand humans differently. I think an MBA would have served you less, frankly. Yeah, that's really strong statement, but I, I just think that really what it comes down to, your business in particular being very public-facing, your employees are your business. I mean, right? Like, yeah, you need to put out good coffee, serve good beer, you know, make great sandwiches, like no doubt. But your employees are the ones that do all of that. And so I think for your business in particular, and honestly most, if you hire people, it's a people business. That's all it is. So I think you're, you actually have a rich set of skills that serve you really well in this capacity.

I think one of the things we did early on was you can pick whatever personality test you want, but I think they're helpful. So we did the Enneagram. And so I have a general sense of what everyone's Enneagram is and that it has helped me just personally in my own personal growth. But more importantly, I think it's predictive of working with other people. So I'm not going to put somebody in a situation that I know based on their personality type or based on their Enneagram or whatever metric you're using. That they're going to be uncomfortable. It's not their strong suit, or we're going to butt heads or they're going to butt heads with people. Right. So kind of understanding where people are coming from and what their motivations are was a big part of how everything sort of shifted out in the hierarchy. Speaking of hierarchy, I mean, it's our org chart would look like me and then everybody else. So that's what our— hell no, I would put, I guess I have to be above everyone because I'm the owner, but I just would rather we just do all of this together.

Right.

Yeah.

But then really democratized. Yeah. Democratized, diffused authority kind of thing.

But we're working with people who are like, so who's in charge? And I fully understand that there are situations where I have said before, like, okay, I'm leaving. So-and-so has the bridge and you all do what you need to do. Give me a call if you need anything. And 9 times out of 10, that works just fine and will work good. So we have a kitchen manager, so everyone knows that all of the Food stuff goes through her. And then we had a gal who stepped up and said, "I really want management," or, "I want more." She has since left, but she was taking care of our events and scheduling and stuff. But the really fun part was when she left, I had several people come up and say, "I'd like some of that opportunity." And that's the thing that is wild to me. There's no advancement here, kids. You're not working towards something. There's no promotion on, there's no corner office that you're working towards.

Listen, Brody, I'm gonna stop you again cuz I'm gonna challenge the hell out of that cuz here's why. Here's why. Okay. This like lateral development is what you're talking about, right? Like functional development where people are, you've created an environment where A, people are unafraid to come to you and say, I would love to explore this.

And that I've worked really hard on.

Like I, and that's a super intentional choice.

Yeah, for some, you know, I, I've never raised my voice. I've never been like that a-hole boss and always been really understanding because I don't know what I don't know. And so I need people to feel comfortable coming to me, A, with problems, but B, with ideas too. It can't all be from me. A great example, we had, uh, one of the gals who's working there now, uh, used to work in a coffee house in Spearfish or in Rapid City somewhere, and they would make their own syrups. And so she's like, I'd really like to take a stab at this. So I put her and her best friend in charge of it. I said, okay, you're the team syrup, so come up with the flavors and whatever our specialty drinks are. And it's been going great. We have so much more versatility within our own house, but I haven't done anything. None of it. They did it all. And I said, great, go. If we were just drinking what I wanted to drink, we'd just serve black coffee.

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. And I think this is really helpful. For people that have teams to listen to. I'm super excited that we're talking about this. I'm super excited. I assumed that this is how you would've developed a team after I'd gotten to know you and I knew you were gonna take it seriously. And again, I'm an org development person. This is completely where it's at to me. So again, going back to like, there's no corner office, there's no rungs on a ladder. You don't even have a freaking ladder. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like that's not a thing. But so what you're doing, Brody, is you're giving people this beautiful opportunity to grow within the, obviously the confines of what the business can offer them, but you're giving people, that's empowerment and that's ownership over whole areas of things. And yeah, of course you get to benefit from it, but that's a lot of trust that has to be in place, like both ways. Yeah. You know, you have to really trust them, they have to really trust you. And there's something very cool about that. So in my, in my mind, you know, given everything I know about culture, I would argue there's, it's, completely understandable that these people are just diehard Market on the Plaza fans. Like they're proud to work there. Like it's crazy. There's like key factors that drive employee engagement.

Mm-hmm.

You know, like across organization sizes, it doesn't matter if you have a ladder or not. It doesn't. But you're literally just naturally embodying all the things that make a great place to work. I, I, so kudos to you.

Well, I, I appreciate that. I, it was, I don't know, a couple weeks ago I stopped one of my employees and I said, hey, like, I see you, like I see you've taken on a lot and I want you to know I really appreciate it and value you and the work that you're doing is not going unseen. And she said, thank you for saying that. And she goes, this place is pretty important and it's important to me and it's pretty special. And it's, yeah. So like I said, I wish I could give you my playbook and be like, this is how you build it. So I have gotten a little bit lucky that my instincts were just right. But it's just treating people like people. Like we're all just here to do a job and then go home to our families. Like that's what we're doing. And if we can have some fun along the way, then great. I've had jobs that have been terrible that I hated going to all the time and jobs that were super fun. And I want this obviously to be the latter. So I'm fortunate for a good crew.

Well, and I think you're giving them an opportunity to be a part of something bigger than a job, which I think that's kind of also what you're tapping into. And then to be able to demonstrate that with the younger generation, I just think is so inspiring right now. Somebody needs to be telling some stories of positive, like, workforce development because it's such a challenge, like, across the board right now.

Yeah.

You know, it is. It's such a challenge. And again, like, so much of the time what I tend to hear is like, it's just really tough in food service. Well, you're an example of maybe some things. And again, I'm not saying that anybody that struggles to keep employees is because they're patently a terrible boss. Like, I would never make that assertion, but I am saying like, Maybe there's some things that you could be doing and you're touching on some of the things that I think are really—

well, and I—

different. They make you different.

I've been on some Reddit, you know, some subreddits and stuff, just, you know, you keep track of small business and coffee shops specifically. And some of the wages that these people are getting are astronomically low, like $8 an hour. Like, this is— we're in 2024 here. We can't, can't be doing that. So all of my employees start at $15 an hour. Is it tough? Yeah, it is. But it's cheaper than retraining people every month when people leave to go find something else. So I mean, they're getting $15 an hour plus at least $3 in tips per hour that they work every pay period. So they're getting paid well. And that is, I like to think that's the bedrock of why we've had turnover that has been so low. Like honestly, I've had to fire 2 people and then Everybody else was in 3 years.

Yeah, that's not bad at all. Let's be real. That's not bad.

And we've had maybe another 5 leave, but they all graduated. So, I mean, what are you going to do?

Yeah, moving on is not losing them, right?

Yeah.

And I think the other cool thing is that no matter what, like, they'll look back on their experience with you as like a formative, great time in their lives. To me, that's the goal, right? Like, I have Bailey working with me here. She's a fresh 22 right out of college. She came and worked with me, which is awesome. I have no expectations that she's going to stay with me forever. I just don't. But what I do want is for her time with me to have been really great, that she looks back on it and feels like she grew, like she developed, like she learned. You know, like, yeah, that's—

I did have one guy quit and he was great and he was really quiet, but he had a lot of great ideas and he was just such a big personality even though he was really quiet. And I had a really hard time with that. He left and went to a different restaurant. And I've since learned that his girlfriend worked at said restaurant. So whatever, you chase what you got to chase, buddy. But I had a really hard time with it because I had this thought in my head that people don't leave jobs, they leave people, right?

Well, generally speaking, but that's not— Yeah.

I mean, it might be a general idea.

I don't know.

I just noodling about it, I guess I came to— He's got to do what he's got to do. And he didn't say, screw you and this place can burn to the ground. He still comes in all the time, which which was every job I've ever quit has been kind of adversarial. So that's just never been my experience. But it says something that he continues to come in for coffee. He just doesn't want to work here anymore. Totally.

Yeah, totally agree. And it's hard because you're a 7, right? You're an Enneagram 7. Yeah, I know. Same, sir. That's why we like each other so much. But it's very hard because I tend to take those things personally.

Right?

Totally. You left me. What did I do wrong?

I know. How did I fail you?

Yeah, you did nothing wrong. And it's just He made a choice.

Yep.

Okay. So anything else on employees and kind of culture? Because that's a huge deal, Brody. Like I'm telling you, yes, you had some base instincts. I would absolutely agree. Like there's, there's no way that that's not true, but you really value your employees as humans first. And I wish more small businesses in particular would understand that incredible opportunity that they have. Yeah, like it's really— it's so—

I have a team, and maybe the way that I'm doing this is a little bit different. So like, I don't work on the floor anymore, which is good and bad. Like, because I should be there, the public like it when I'm there, the staff like it when I'm there. I can tackle things. I don't get much else done because I'm just running around and doing whatever. But the staff have— everyone is in their roles now, you know, and everyone's pretty comfortable, and we don't have any new people. So it frees up the opportunity for me to go do other things like this in the community and do the other things that I'm a part of, which is great, and still own it. So I mean, that all being said, I'm not taking a wage from it, and that might be very different than the way that other people are doing it or need to do it. But at this point, it's just that's how we chose to do it. Right.

Well, and the truth is, if you were taking a wage, then probably one of those humans wouldn't be employed.

Right.

You would be more operator than simply owner, right? And that's a choice everybody has to make.

And it's a weird— it's something I'm struggling with currently, like just trying to figure out. I never thought I'd be where I am and I never thought I'd be doing it alone. And so what does the next year to 5 years look like, you know? And it's, it's all still kind of a brave new world. But now I don't know. So I've had also in the past year had the opportunity to sell a business. Start a business and sell it. So myself and 2 other people started Engels Event Company here in town or in Aberdeen. So we took an old furniture store and turned it into an event center for downtown. And we did that for a year, a little, just over a year. And then the partnership, I think it's Dave Ramsey that says the only ship that don't float is a partnership. And partnerships are tough. So I'm 0 for 2, 0 for 3 actually. Partnerships at this point.

But so smart you're getting though, right? Like, oh, I know. All the life experience.

Even though I hate doing it alone. Like I'm a social creature. Like I want to bounce ideas off of people and have it not all, if it goes wrong, that it's all on me, you know? And I guess if it goes right, it's all on, no, cause it feels like if it goes right, it's a group win, but if it goes wrong, it was my idea. So that's, That's where it sits. So yeah, I mean, the selling of a business was a different thing as well. And it was very good that somebody came along when he did, and it is all for the best. And I was stretched way too thin anyway. I mean, it was going to come to a breaking point.

You had shown me that building, right? We'd walk through it. I hadn't seen it done. And I kind of— this is like news to me, right? I can't believe that you sold it. That's actually quite amazing. So is he running it as an event center? Yep.

So he owns— it's a guy here in town, owns all kinds of stuff. And so part of what he owns is a catering company. So I think it was—

yeah, super smart.

Yeah, that tied together. And so that— it's almost been a year since we've had that.

And well, I am ashamed that you and I have not— like, it bothers me actually. But I was like, at least we get— so I said, you know, we get on this call, we're like, oh my gosh, it's so good to see you. Let's just record our reunion. Our reunion conversation is essentially what we're doing.

But yep.

Yeah, I just— I really love you. I do. I'm just going to say that, like, I love your energy. I love your spirit. I follow along. I do. I follow along. And I just haven't been down to Aberdeen in a while where I've gotten to come and see you.

Well, I haven't been up to Oak, so it's—

I mean, I know the roads go both ways. It's fine, but it's just really good to hear. And so, okay, so you're down that business, which is great. And again, to find somebody that wants it and you can sell it and get out from under it, that's great. And by the way, I don't know if you remember. Well, again, we're going to, we're going to link to our old episodes, but I know on one of them I flat out just said like, I would give anything to have a partnership. Like, I would give anything to have a partner because I too am so social and I'm just like lonely in this all the time, right? I know it's really hard.

It is really hard, right? Like, let's talk about that for a second because it's like no matter what you do, like I said, it's all on your shoulders, right? Win, lose, or otherwise. But you don't want in those dark moments as an owner where you're like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. You can't show that to your employees. Or at least I feel that way. Or maybe I should be doing it. I've, there have been times where I've been vulnerable before and just said like, look, I'm struggling with this. I don't really know what I'm doing. So thanks for staying with me and blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I don't know. It's been a weird, like 6 months and I don't super know where I'm at, but I. Feel like I have to— it's the— there's that book, The Energy Bus, right? Like, I have to be driving the energy bus, but if my cup's not full enough to do it, then what happens, right?

Right. So do you— you have a pretty solid entrepreneurial kind of network built in down in Aberdeen? Yeah.

Yep, I do.

I feel like you guys have— you have that, right?

Yep. Yep.

Is that helping to kind of Augment the energy piece of it?

I guess part of it is like, okay, 3 years in, not taking a paycheck, not growing exactly the way that I wanted to. Like, is this all going okay, right? Or are the rats fleeing the ship? Or— and maybe this is just me catastrophizing too. What I've started to do is reach out to— and my life is filled with women and I love all of them. Um, sometimes you need that bro energy though too. And so I've started to reach out to some of the other guys and especially the ones who are farther along than me and say, This is where I'm at. Is this normal? Did you experience anything like this? What am I missing? What do you got? And that's been really valuable and I need to do it more. I think we tend to, when we don't know what to do, I mean, we can reach out, but I've tended to withdraw lately. And so I haven't reached out.

That's not good for your personality.

No, it's not. And I can, you know, the hard part about knowing your personality so well is you can tell when you're starting to drift and when you can tell when you're starting to get into your unhealthy parts. And I've been flirting with it for a while, I guess, if we're being honest, just because I don't know what the next big thing is. And I'm, I'm not saying I'm out of ideas per se, but now it's the, it's the grind, right? And maybe I am, I guess if we're doing therapy here, maybe my 7 is afraid of that, that I'm out of, that the well has run dry and I'm out of ideas. Am I just going to regurgitate the same 3 t-shirts and 2 puzzles every Christmas?

Maybe.

I'd rather not, but I've got to change with the times and all that. So yeah, it can certainly be lonely as the owner. And I guess I'd like to hear, I mean, is it— can you share that stuff with your team or with your employees, or do you just kind of have to share it with your small group and then go forward?

Yeah, so I guess I have a few thoughts about it. I think within reason, it's not only okay, but it's actually welcomed to be pretty vulnerable about where you're at with things. I think the line we have to walk is what's the honesty that will create or incite fear and worry in our teams versus just a healthy honesty. Yeah. And I think as long as we're not looking to our team as like a dumping ground for all for our fulfillment or for our personal therapy. I think it's just really being honest about why am I sharing this? Why am I feeling compelled to share this with them? One, before you say anything out loud, right? Maybe just having a little bit of that internal dialogue about, like, am I doing this for me or is it going to benefit them?

Yeah.

Because I just think, like, you are— you're a human, Brody. They need to know that. They need to understand that. And the more the more that we can do to encourage that kind of honesty, I think that we're leading from a place of honesty, authenticity, vulnerability, all of those things. But I do think it can end up becoming a little bit self-serving.

Sure. No, I totally agree.

If we're trying to extract something from them that we may need to find another outlet to get.

Yeah.

So I feel like you're doing better than you feel like you are. And let me just— so to the whole, like, is this normal? Is this where I should be? You're 3 years in. I am 2 years into this organization. I still do not draw a salary either. Okay. I pay somebody else, right? Like she gets a, she gets a salary. Your team gets payments, right? And gets, uh, paychecks. And I think what sometimes we need to stop and take a breath and what we need to recognize is that you're freaking paying people. You are doing well enough in your business that you are paying your utilities, you're paying your mortgage, you're paying your people. And that— celebrate the hell out of that, Brody. It's a big deal. And you did it too. Like, started in COVID. So did I. I bought my building at the end of 2020. Like, we were going through this at exactly the same time. And it's very— our businesses are totally different, so there's no real parallel there. But the difficulty and the challenge and the ups and the downs and the days that you're like, too many downs in a row where you go, oh my God, I need to win, right? But then you get one. Like, in my estimation, it makes sense that you're feeling all of those things. And I don't want you to ever forget just to celebrate what an amazing job you've done in these 3 years because you're paying other humans, you're providing a real need for the community, and you're taking care of your bills. Like, that matters.

I appreciate that. And I think I do struggle to stop and look at that or to identify the small wins, right? And so I think my main metric of success is the sales numbers, right? And so we've seen those all over the place. And of course you can rationalize it all away by saying, well, it's your, your first year, so things of course are going to be huge. Well, then the second year wasn't as good as that was, and then third year you got to work a little harder to get butts in seats. And I think there is an ebb and flow to that, but what I'm hearing you say is that might not be the main metric to look at, or at least just include others, right?

Yeah. And I think that's part of the strategy is to sit down and say, how do I determine as the owner of this business whether we're doing well or not? Like, sales numbers matter in that you've got real bills to pay, right? No doubt, no question. But then there's you, your well-being, your connection to the business, right? Like, what do you need to have in place? Like, what makes you feel great? Walking in or out, you know, what makes you feel great when you start the day? What makes you feel great when you end the day? And, and looking for some of those other things because yeah, it, I don't wanna ever suggest that you're not in control of sales numbers because clearly you are, but to an extent.

Right.

And so then how do you feel fulfilled and content and not like almost hopeless on a down period sales-wise? Right. And I think, you know, it's the other thing that's tricky, I think being 7s, like 7s are, we seek novelty and we seek excitement and interest in all of that. And there comes a point where your business has to have some sustainable things that don't change.

Yeah.

Because, you know, if you wanna be like a daily part of people's lives, which I think early on was kind of one of your jams, right? Like you wanted, you wanted the Market on the Plaza to be like, I wouldn't start my day without them kind of a thing, right? Right. Yeah. Well then you have to have, some sustainable things that you offer and that balance of what's expected and then what's new and novel, just super challenging. So I guess I think an idea for you going back to your syrup team, which I love, I love that you have that. I mean, maybe there are other things like that that your team would love to run with and that becomes part of how you introduce novel ideas to the community is you let your team initiate the novelty and you sell it that way to the community. Like, yeah, you know, so it never just feels like Brody's brain. It's everybody's brain. It's everybody's idea. Like maybe there's a cool way that you could have a, a new thing, like maybe once a month and different people on your team get to creatively, and maybe it's a product, maybe it's a sandwich, maybe it's a coffee drink, maybe it's, I mean, whatever.

Yep. Yeah. And we've done some of that, especially with like drinks of the month. And I will purposely stop and say, okay, Jamira, this is your month. So I need like 2 coffee drinks and they can be your favorite. They can just be totally made up, whatever it is. And I, I think that was, people really liked that. And not only the, the staff, but the customers as well, that totally, it's your barista's choice, right? There's so much romance and sexiness around a coffee shop. Oh, agreed.

It's like my favorite feel. It like, it gives me a feeling.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the other thing you could do is user-generated content and stuff. Like, is there a way that you could start to really engage, like let them tell you the next thing that they wanna create? Mm-hmm. So what's, what's potentially cool about that too, right? Is that people love their ideas to get picked.

Yeah.

And then there you have like a built-in network. That's not yours, that belongs to them, that they'll share.

Yeah.

So again, random ideas, but it's because like you worry about running out of ideas. You'll never run out of ideas, I promise you. You might in your brain, but just remember that you've got like devotees of the Market on the Plaza. You've got people that love, love, love, love you so much. So that a guy that quit still comes in and drinks coffee all the time. That's a big damn deal.

It's interesting that you say like double down on the things that work. Like there was a point probably this spring where we were thinking about maybe we transition to like a full-on service restaurant at night. And like, I think a couple people was like, no, stop it. Do what makes you money. Do what people are already coming in for and double down on those things. And it was, so yeah, I, this year has kind of just been about steadiness and not changing too much. You can introduce little things here and there, but otherwise we just have to stay the course. Right. And that even comes down to like hours. Like, we're taking it in the shorts some nights, being open till 9, and driving bar traffic can be tough. But I don't want to keep changing things all the time, and then we end up being like super sporadic and people don't know when we're open or when we're not. Then that's its own problem. So it's balancing that, paying the bills and paying the staff when no one is there, hoping that you can have the content to drive the traffic for it.

So yeah, like Seriously, all so challenging. But that's, I think, a question you guys can ask yourselves at any time is when people think of the market, they think of what? And then that's again, those things that you just say, okay, but this is what we're known for and this is what we'd be crazy to stray from. And then for you and your general personality, it's just how do you keep that interesting to you? And that is a real, that's a real thing. It's your business. If it ever becomes uninteresting to you, A bad place for a 7 to be, right? This is why you also don't work for other people. I mean, this is why you're an entrepreneur. This is why you've had several businesses because you're not wired for monotony.

There are days where I'm like, I just, why don't I just go get a shift work shift job over at 3M and I can go make N95 masks and then come home and that's, that's all I got to do. And I remember the last time I got fired, it was because of my plucky attitude and like, we should change this and we should change this and we should do this. And they're like, no, I think we'll let you go. I think that'll be good.

Yeah. How about we change your employment?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, let's not change the name of the store.

Brody, there's a lot of things you've said over the years that we've had in passing conversation that I've related to. I swear to God, probably every handful of days, I'm like, should I just go get a job? I know. Just someone tell me what to do. But ultimately, I bucket. And I'm not. That's not where I'm meant to be. So this literally just becomes like not our cross to bear. Like, every single human has things that set them up really well for certain things, and there's going to be downfalls, right? Like, every single one of us has strengths and then things that we need to continue to work on. This is just going to be our thing. Yeah, it's a serious challenge, but the world wouldn't be the same without you doing what you're doing right there in Aberdeen. So let's actually— let's pivot into that a bit because you're actively involved in quite a bit of things, right, across the community. So let's talk about that. What are some of the ways— and I mean, how do you think, and in what ways does that intersect with your business? Yeah, kind of your community focus.

Yeah. So, well, I'm not on as many boards anymore. I'm on the Chamber Board, and that's, you know, they're our neighbors, and it's kind of— it's the right thing to do. I mean, they're a good organization that stands up for small business, and, and so, you know, they throw you some business as well by catering events here and there and things like that. And just the visibility, that's what I get most of from the stuff is the visibility. Oh, I saw you on Facebook, or, oh, I saw you here doing this and whatever. We're— we as a business are real active with the Downtown Association. We have a new executive director, so being someone to welcome her in and say, whatever you need, let me know. And by the way, we're working together on 3 giant downtown concerts, and I've done them and you haven't, so like, let me know what you need as you're figuring out. That's been great. You know, part of what we strive to and what I tell my staff is we're not saying no. Like, when the bank down the street calls at 5 o'clock at night and says, can we get 45 sandwiches for the next day? Yes, absolutely you can. Because there are places in town that will say, no, I'm sorry, that's too late of a turnaround. What do we have going on in the morning that we can't make some sandwiches? It doesn't take that long. And now we have the support and the gratitude of the people who made it work. They know they're late, but it's— Right.

Yeah.

It's what you do.

I think being a place of yes is a really, really cool stance to take. That's my general stance as well. Does it burn me out sometimes? Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yep, it does.

I'm not sure my staff like it all the time, but we've started to tell the joke around there that queso is Mexican for cheese, but queso is Midwestern for Okay, here's the plan and you're probably not going to like it.

Oh my God. Okay, so I love it. Like, I got it. I got it the second it came out of your mouth. I'm like, oh, I think I say that multiple times a day.

Angie. Okay, so Dakota Bank called and we need 45 sandwiches in the morning.

Oh, Brody, that's amazing.

So it's— yeah, but it is. It's fun. And that was something we learned with Engels is we were doing things that no one else was allowing people to do, even just put a nail in the wall, you know? When some spackle and a little bit of paint and you're back to normal. Like, but it made a big deal to them. And then they remember you as the people who will bend over to make your event what it needs to be.

Right.

So I think that's a big piece of what we like to do, even with our catering and our event space as well. The other big community-driven jump that I've done this year is I sit on the fair board. So the Brown County Fair board, which the Brown County Fair is the only free fair left in the state of South Dakota. It is normally, I think it's the third week in August. It's in the teens this year, whatever that is, but it's a big damn deal.

It's a big damn deal.

I like being part of big things and especially when you can be, and no one wants to do the marketing. Like everyone, the fair manager knows that they need to take marketing more seriously. And so I came in saying I'd like to run marketing. And so I did all of the Facebook for the fair and that, There was a little bit of pushback from some other fair board members because I was watching the rodeo when they were all scanning tickets, but I was also recording the rodeo so that I could turn that into content so that we could sell out the next night and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, neither here nor there. What the point is, is it took people a little bit of time to understand what I was trying to do. All it is is posting on social media. That's all. You know, it's not novel and it's what we all should be doing, but it's content creation, it's video editing, it's all of that stuff that goes into it. But it gets my face out there as well. Like, if we're being selfish, not only is it fun to be part of big, big projects doing big things that people remember, and especially experiences that people remember, but then if I'm the only one willing to put my face out there, then fine, it has to be somebody, so it might as well be me. I'm a whore for the spotlight, so I might as well do it anyway.

That's your 7 talking. Oh my God.

Yeah, I know. So then knowing full well—

I seriously miss you so much. This is so much damn fun. Oh God.

So yeah, if they see me on the F.A.I.R. Facebook page, then maybe that will spark them to, oh, what does he do? Oh, he owns that coffee shop. I should go down there. Or it's, you know, it's just little things like that. But it's being part of the community is such a big thing. Like you have to and you have to give back and you have to be involved and I don't have the money to do a lot of the things that people ask or charities or whatever, donations and things. But I do have time. My kids are getting older and talent, and we can do some things that other people can't do.

And that is— That's another, by the way, it's an important note, like this trifecta of time, talent, and treasure. I mean, those are the things that we get to steward forward into our communities. And so again, for every small business listening to this episode right now, like as they're listening to this, it's recognizing that like you don't have to say yes to every single request for money.

Yeah.

But actually what, like what if you just started to think about where can I show up authentically me? That's actually my talent. And then, you know, usually time and talent are connected, right?

Yeah.

But I just think that's super important because it does, it really matters. You're doing it in the way that it feels right to you. And again, aligned with you. I mean, we're kidding about being a whore for the spotlight, but it's, Like, that's a thing that some people can't and won't do.

So yeah, if you have a local news agency or even your regional news agency, right, and they, they're always looking for content. And so I now have the cell phone number of several of the reporters who, when they have nothing else to report on, they'll call me and say, you got anything to talk about? And it gets me out there because I'm like, yeah, come on down, like, we'll talk about it. And whereas getting in front of a camera is not everyone's strong suit, but if you don't At the very least, you don't mind it, put yourself there.

Agree.

Because other people are running, so you can put yourself there and you start to hear, "Oh, I just see you everywhere." Well, good, then it's working because that's—

Exactly. That's the whole point. Yeah. Well, okay, so let me ask you this, given that this is such a thing that I feel deeply, like, I mean, 100%, like, if you want to record something and you want me to be in it, I don't care. It doesn't bother me at all. Really, really down for it. Do you ever feel like the community sees that as a self-serving mechanism? Does it ever concern you? Does it ever hit your brain? Or are you just pretty comfortable with the fact that, like, you know that you're doing it for all the right reasons, so it doesn't matter what people think?

Yeah, I guess I'll MC the— Safe Harbor, our women's shelter, has an event every winter, and I'll MC that. I've been MCing that for 10 years, and I'm not asking them to, that's my check. I'm not saying, "Hey, can I come emcee this and can I get out there?" And I really, most of the time, do not take the opportunity to say, "I'm Brody from the Market on the Plaza. Be sure to come down and support me." Unless they're specifically saying, "Please take a minute and hype yourself," I don't do that. So when I'm— this whole emcee gig, maybe I might need to monetize it somehow, but I emceed the Miss Aberdeen competition. So I've done that 2 years in a row now. I take a minute to just say, I'm your host, Brody Mueller from the Market on the Plaza. Thank you so much for coming, blah, blah, blah. That's it. So no, I guess if there was a long line of people waiting to emcee or to be the face of some of these things, and I have no problem doing that or stepping back and saying, you bet, go for it, because you need different voices as well. And I fully understand that I'm a straight white landowning Protestant male, so I'm at the top of the food chain already. So I don't need the exposure. So if other people want to, or if they want to come in and do it with me, like, that's great. So no, I guess I'm cognizant that I don't want to be in too many places because that also dilutes your— the attention, and then people don't know which organization you're coming to them from.

Totally.

Yeah, you know what I mean? And so, yep, but that's why things like the Chamber is great because you're wearing your Chamber hat, but every Chamber member owns a business. So, and they expect you then to pump yourself and do all this. So no, I guess I haven't only because I don't see anybody else being like, well, where's my spotlight? And so I, right here, knock yourself out if you want to do it. But until somebody else says, no, I want to, like, okay, I'll keep doing it. It's a community service at some point.

And by the way, you let me know when you're ready to monetize your MCing gigs. I can help with that.

I don't know that the two places I do it for now would pay me to do it. So I'm going to settle for free dinners.

But it's understandable. Well, like you said, it's one thing when it's an organization that you're aligned with personally. And so then that becomes your contribution or your way to support them.

That's—

I feel like I do that a lot.

Yeah. So I know my wife would like me to work less events. There's like one event in town that we can go to as a couple and just like go and do the event. So she would certainly, certainly like that. But I—

that's a challenge. I think that's a huge challenge. Or I just get like social burnout, but then I never really like doing my own thing or just doing it for my own fulfillment. Yeah, it's interesting. But again, that's probably just a curse of a 7. I mean, when you're highly engaged and you like, you want to be all the places.

But I know, and I think about that though. And like, at least for me personally, like, that's changing with like, just for me personally, like, I'm becoming more I don't know if introverted is the right word or if I've just protected the social things that I want to do and then I don't need other things, you know, like, and maybe it's also just post-COVID. No one's going out, but the last thing I want to do is go to the bar or go— sometimes you want to go to a party, but largely I'm like, okay, we're going, cuz this is what you do. But I don't really super want to, I guess I'd rather stay here. But maybe that's just me. I don't know. It's been in— I think about And maybe it was COVID that did it, but 5 years ago, like, yeah, let's go out, let's do it. But I don't know, the wife and I are kind of circling our wagons and just, I see and talk to people all day long. I don't really need to do it in my social time either. Okay. And maybe that's just the whiplash. Now I'm just talking, but it's a whiplash of where, where I was before I started the market. So I had a, started a brewery that never took off. Long story short, I was alone all the time and watching water boil and playing video games and it sucked. That's why I took the team so seriously when we got started, because I finally had a team. You know, like you get started in business and you read all these books and you do all these things and you're like, yeah, one day when I have a team, I'll do X, Y, and Z. And then I finally had it and I knew what I wanted it to feel like. And I knew what I wanted the culture to be like. I just didn't have anything written down. And so it's been a, I think you're right that the social work certainly helped with that, but it's been important to treat people like people and yeah, just be good. Be good to each other.

Yeah, be good to each other and be good. I think along with that, it's like also be good to yourself. That's the balance in how you're spending your personal time and then how you balance that with your community work and your business. It's a huge challenge. To me, it's not surprising. Also, I think there's an ebb and a flow to all of this with our family.

Oh, yeah. The balance is a bit.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's not balancing. It's just being cognizant of where it's at, knowing that there may be seasons that are just way, way out of balance by almost anybody's standards. And you accept it because that's a negotiation for you and your spouse to make and your family only. Everybody else, I mean, they can weigh in, but they also can just kind of kiss it as far as I'm concerned. Like, you have nothing to do with this, right? Because, yeah, that's hard.

And that really has to come first, right? A former friend really throw his marriage away for his business, and then the business didn't even work out. And it's like, what do you have left, man? Like, if you don't have the family to come home to that says, I see you and I get you and I love you and you're doing great, then like, I don't know why any of this— then I'm going to 3M. Like, might as well just, you know, if you have some rent money and beer money then, but I don't have anybody to share it with, then what does it all matter? So yeah, and I think those seasons at home change faster than the seasons at work. And so to keep, especially with young kids, you know, to keep track of that. My wife is a physician, so her schedule can be bananas. And so you just kind of got to go week by week sometimes. And if you can front load the quality time and front load the support, knowing that this week is going to be tough for one or both of us, that's certainly something we've learned. So.

Yeah. Well, so I'll just say this is awesome that you have that kind of rich partnership at home. Like, you maybe don't have it in work right now, right? Because you're owning this business by yourself. But having that support, having that open dialogue at home is so important.

Yeah.

Because, like, really, it's easy for anybody that owns a business to just work themselves to actual death.

Yeah. I just think the risk of that is always there because there's always something to do, right?

Right. It's always— it's all on you. Like, like you said, that can get really heavy to carry.

Yeah.

Oh, it's just so good to see your face.

Absolutely.

And they don't get to see your face, but you've got such a great voice though, too.

Yeah, I'm much better on podcasts than I am in real life.

So stop it. That's not true. So what about Micropolitan? Can we talk about? Yeah. So, okay, so randomly came across that BTW. I was—

well, good. The algorithm is working for zero work that we've put into it. Okay, so Micropolitan is Uh, now the third iteration of the 1 Million Cups chapter that was in Aberdeen. So 1 Million Cups is a, uh, program put on by the Kauffman Foundation that talks to entrepreneurs every Wednesday morning at 9:00 AM in cities across the country.

Mm-hmm.

We were one of those. We started it in 2016. We didn't really follow the rules very well. Right. They wanted— the Kauffman Foundation is— their 1 Million Cups model is a great model and the, the name is stupid in my opinion, but the Story is if you— a business is built one cup of coffee at a time. So if you could put 1 million cups of coffee together, then think how much faster you could build this entrepreneurial ecosystem, blah, blah, blah. I still think it's a silly name, but whatever. So they wanted us to talk to 2 people every week and have a little bit of time to tell their story, a little bit of Q&A, and move on to the next one. We would've, A, burned through our talent pool so fast being a rural community. Wow.

Town of 26,000. Yeah, right. Like, you, you must have been— and just again, for like the audience, by the way, we'll like link to all of this stuff because I think the Kauffman Foundation, they, they deserve credit for this.

Absolutely.

It's a great idea. And I would assume that Aberdeen was one of the smaller chapters.

Probably. So then COVID came, we went totally online, we treated it like a little newscast. Rebecca, you came on during that time and we did everything from like PPP money to, you know, here we're going to meet Twiskone, or, you know, our local ice cream shop. And it was great. But then once we kind of came out of COVID we called Kauffman Foundation and said, hey, we're breaking up with you. Like, we don't need the charter. We don't need to pay for the rights anymore. And I wasn't— unfortunately, I wasn't in on that conversation. But apparently one of the women started crying and said, no, like, we've been pointing people to you guys. Like, this is how it should be done. So, well, that would've been nice to know, but that ship has sailed. So we rebranded as the Hub City Cup Show, but after COVID, we didn't get the butts in seats that we wanted. So if you already have someone who you are dragging, kicking, and screaming to come in and tell the story of their business because public speaking isn't everyone's thing, now you bring them into a theater that is empty. It's like you and your organizing team.

Right? Mm-hmm.

Or maybe like 2 people, and that is not a good experience. So we did that for about a year. Things kind of petered off. It kind of was dormant for about another year. And we said, well, the stories are still so good. That's the problem.

Mm-hmm.

The stories are good and the lessons are good. And so the next logical step is a podcast, right? So a simple half-hour thing doesn't need to be huge. Certainly has potential to be, but the name Micropolitan is, there's a metropolitan, but a micropolitan is a small community that draws from and supports about a 100-mile rope swing, and those communities do the same. And so many of you listening, you might resonate with that. So we have, uh, 6 or 8 episodes out, and I think they're good. The part of the problem is me and the 2 co-hosts, co-founders— I don't know what we are— but the women I do it with, one of them started a new job spearheading Northern's entrepreneurial ecosystem startup lab thing. And then the other one is running for Senate. So Katie's running for Senate.

Of course she is.

Yeah. So Katie Waschnack running for Senate here in District 3, which is great. And then B. Smith, yeah, took over the Northern Innovation Startup Center, which is also huge. But she does a great job at it and she'll be— things will be great. Just really busy here right in the beginning. So we are just working on our own schedule, but I certainly I encourage people to get out there and listen to Micropolitan, where you can find your own podcasts.

Yeah, that's really cool. I've listened to a handful of the episodes, and I don't know if it's because I know you, and so I just like— it's endearing to me. But I also think the story of 1 Million Cups, Hub City Cup Show, like, that whole arc is really interesting because, again, you know, I'm in a town of 1,800 people, and I still think, honestly, even here, the need for some support for people that are doing their own thing. It's really important. It's really important. And it's hard to organize in a way that people can easily get to. Timing, scheduling, like all of it. Medium, like you said, where do you host it? Where do you have it? When do you have it? What do you have there?

I wanted to start, and I still will probably do this, but there's been a couple of people that I've You know, they're within that 5-year range, right? And so I approached a couple of them and said, you want to start like a freshman club? Like, you know, like we're all just kind of figuring this out, but what does your balloon business, you know, what works for marketing and what are you seeing? Hub City Axe Throwing, what are you seeing and what is helping that, you know, I don't need another, you know, you don't want to double up on businesses within there so that it's a safe place to share, you know. But it kind of goes back to, is this normal? Am I doing this right? What can I be doing better? And get it from the people who are in your position.

Right away my brain went to, can the theme song be the song by The Verve, like, Freshmen? It's literally right away my brain went into that being like the theme song. We all walk into the facility to that.

Yeah. Yep. As the song plays about the kid overdosing. So yeah.

Yeah. I know. A little rough, but whatever. It's just how my brain works. I'm sorry.

I'm for it. Let's do it.

There's theme songs always rolling in the background. It's just how it goes. I love that. I think that's— well, and I often wonder, you know, Aberdeen's only 70 miles away. It's not that far. We're right, you know, and just what would a regional approach to something like that look like? Yeah, I think there's a lot of potentially a lot of power in that, especially where, you know, out here we—

I say all the time, we have to make our own fun, right? Because we're not on the freeways, we're not going to have the— some of the resources or the opportunities that other businesses and freeway-bound communities do. So then we have to make our own fun. If there's not something in your town and this doing, having this one thing would make it better, then do it.

Yeah. Start small. Figure out a way, like grab 2 people that share that vision or dream and run and see what happens. Yeah. I say that all the time too. Because again, like if you sit around and you think, well, this would be great. Like our town would be so much better if we had this. Well, one of my arguments is like, well, then the community needs it because you're a resident of your community and you count just as much as anybody else. But then also, like, you might be the somebody that you're looking for. You know, if you're like, someone should do this. Well, maybe that's you. And what does that, you know, how do you start small? Grab a couple of people, make it happen, and then start to just pay attention. Yeah.

That's it. If it's not you, you know, running a business is— it's a hard thing. So it's no joke. But you may have other people that, I don't want to do this, but I feel like the— I guess you help manifest it, right? Is I'm gonna put it out into the ether and maybe somebody will grab it and, and go from there. But it's totally doing that instead of bitching about it is— I mean, at least be a part of the solution, right?

Totally, totally. Well, you know, Brody Mueller, I am so glad for this conversation today.

Me too.

It was so nice to catch back up with you, and I It was a little bit of quasi-therapy, but I think that's important because owning a business in a small-ish town, even a town of 26,000, I mean, it's hard. It's hard work. It's super worthwhile. I mean, it's worth it. It's always worth it. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't— sometimes it's not going to feel like it's worth it. And then again, it's reflection and kind of strategizing further or deeper, reprioritize all sorts of things. But super fun to hear about the success of the Market on the Plaza and just you as a human, because you're doing great work and Aberdeen needs you.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for having me on. It was great to hear. And the podcasting is always kind of on the back of my mind, so I, I needed this, uh, needed this push. So thank you.

Oh, well, you're welcome, and it's going to be fun. We'll have you back for another episode of Where Are They Now, right? Eventually. Um, but But before that, I'll be coming down to visit you in person because I think I need to give you a bear hug. That's what I'm feeling like right now.

I'll take it.

Okay. We'll have you back soon, Brody. Thanks so much.

Sounds good. Thank you.