130. Supporting Entrepreneurs in Small Towns with Kim Nagle

Our guest on today's episode is Kim Nagle. Kim is the author of the book The Damn Plan: How to Find Freedom, Love, and Money in Your Business, and, uh, she joins us to talk today about primarily the topic that we continue to kind of circulate around was simply related to why potentially starting and/or scaling and/or operating a business in a small town is challenging. We really focus on entrepreneurship, but we really get into the deeper discussion about the stuff that we tell ourselves, the stuff that goes on between our ear holes, and just how as a small town— again, if you're listening to this and you're the kind of person that says, I want my community to be filled with successful business owners, this is an episode to listen to, to think about what we each can respectively do. Because once we get to the end of this, you're going to hear that it's actually pretty simple and it's things that every single human in their small community can do. So without further ado, here's my friend Kim. Well, hi, Kim.

Hello.

Welcome to the show.

They probably don't know, but I am sitting right across the table from you.

I know.

And that is So super special.

It is special. I love it when people can actually physically come to see me in person.

How many times I have met so many people via Zoom or met them on LinkedIn, struck up a friendship, and then when we finally get to meet each other, we're going, you mean this is the first time?

Yeah, you feel like you've known each other forever.

Forever. But there still isn't anything that replaces that human-to-human connection.

Awesome.

For sure.

It's so great to have you here. We've had a good long winding road of conversations already, haven't we? So now we're just gonna turn on the mic and let other people in on some of 'em. So you have such a, a rich business career, like your experiences are vast and wide and you have a lot of really cool things that you do. But we're talking today about small towns.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

And you still, a lot of your client work, a lot of the people that you work with, whether they're entrepreneurs or the organizations that you support. You can get into kind of how you and where you've seen these things, but let's just talk about it. You know, when it comes to entrepreneurship especially, I personally think Growing Small Towns, it's one of the three pillars of programming that we care about supporting are the small town business owners. Like, how do we help them? Not just a system. I mean, those things matter too, but it's really about the individuals, right?

It is.

So the fact that you have a bend for this kind of work is— it's one of the reasons that there's so much synergy between us. But what do you think, and what have you seen are like the biggest things holding people back? Like, if entrepreneurship is the way forward for small towns, why isn't everybody doing it? What do you really think? What do I heard?

What, what, what have I heard? And what do I really think? Yeah, there's so many different facets. You can't pigeonhole it. And I think that's what really is an issue overall is we try to find that one problem.

Yeah.

If we solve it and we try to fix it.

Yeah.

And so oftentimes from our federal systems on down that support small business ownership, they're going, well, it's just access to capital. You know, we need to give them more money and that'll fix the whole problem. We need to give them a loan only, you know. Oh, if only. Because the vast majority of businesses do not fail for lack of customers. Or lack of money. They do not. They fail for lack of management, right? Which is a people skill, which is a huge people skill, and it's one we assume everybody knows. Yeah, but the reality is 70% of all businesses are started by people with a skill, with a passion. They turn it into a business, but really what they want to do is just focus on that thing. They want to get up in the morning and pound nails. They want to get up in the morning and cut hair. They want to build websites. Well, I don't want to work. I know that back office stuff or that building that business stuff. No. So I think just recognizing that is a first huge step. And even as we're sitting here in this beautiful space, the Dorothy Jane, the Growing Small Towns incubator, just fabulous space. It is spaces like this where people can actually come to and perhaps get that support because turning them into the perfect business owner with all of those skills, I'm just going to put it right out there. Just say no.

Right.

Just say no. Why make it so darn hard? For that extraordinary mechanic, that extraordinary website builder, whatever their skill is, why make it so hard for them to be successful? Why can't we teach them that it takes more than just them?

Right, exactly. So you are literally just— you're hitting such a chord for me because so in Oaks here in the last year, we've launched this like an actual support system, like a program for these small business owners. I recruited our baker out of Burn Bombs in downtown Fargo. Her skill is making amazing food. Like, she is just amazing. I want our community to be the kind of place where we can tap someone like her and say, have you ever thought of doing this yourself? And if they say, I have, but I'm scared, we say, we can work with that, you know, like, because again, so So I think there's a couple things here. One is just that I want to help small towns. I want our small town to figure out how to support those people that have a really niche kind of skill to actually turn it into a business.

Okay?

I want us to be able to figure that out. The other thing is if they want to, because it's also okay if you've got a really cool, like, niche skill, craft, hobby, whatever, and you don't monetize it.

Right.

It's like so okay.

It is so okay. Or have it at a different scale. Right.

Exactly. There is nothing wrong.

Yeah. Side hustle. Yeah, yeah, there's nothing wrong. I think we have a misconception of what a real business owner is or what a real job is, right? I don't know about you, but 92% of all employed positions are actually started by businesses with fewer than 10 employees, right? I mean, so you don't have to have employees, you don't have to have an LLC, you don't have to have all these checklist things that say, okay, now you're real. It has everything to do with what's between your ears and your mindset about it.

I agree.

Are you committed?

Yeah. So it's interesting. We have one of the participants in our mastermind, well, a couple of them actually, and they've said things like, well, okay, this is really common. I'm sure you see this all the time. Both of these people happen to work in really low overhead businesses, right? They're consultants. One does marketing. Yeah, right. So her overhead is like her internet, you know, she, she can work from anywhere. And she made the, the comment like, if something happens to me, my business ceases. And it was almost like, does that make me a vulnerable business? And I was like, okay, well, let's just dial it back and say, is this really a problem for you or are we making it a problem? Like, Where's the messaging coming from that's telling you that the way you run your business, like you said, isn't quote unquote a real business, right? And the idea of scaling, like all of these words that we assume come with success, again, in air quotes, it's like, no, success is whatever we need it to be. You know, like if your business, if all it does is pay you grocery money, let's say.

Yeah.

Right? Like you cover your expenses or you have very few expenses and you make grocery money. That's absolutely successful if that's what you want it to do for you. That's why I love the fact that you're really focused on, like, helping people actually create a business that they want instead of— I don't know, there's such bullshit out there, like, in the broader, you know, business success coaching world. Maybe we'll narrow it down to that. I don't know. In general, where I don't want to shame everybody, like, hey, no, if it's working for you, why don't we just call that a success? And You don't have to make it bigger. You don't have to grow it. You don't have to add people. You don't have to put up a second or third or fourth location. Like, you don't have to do any of that.

No, don't judge your— number one, don't judge your success by somebody else's success. Let's not do that. The other— but I'm just going to reel that back. It's real. We just simply—

absolutely.

We get to live with it every day. Someone is out there and they've made their million, they're moving forward and going, oh, but she's doing so well. And I'm just over here, I'm buying the groceries, I'm paying the rent, I'm doing the things, I'm raising my kids, I'm part of my community, I'm all of this. But she's up.

No.

Yeah. If it is a concerted decision that this is the way you want to live, you want to operate. You do not need to make any excuses for making that decision. Right now, we talked earlier about settling, right?

Yeah. Yep. If you settle the flip side of this, the flip side.

Yeah.

Right.

Are you settling? And why are you settling? Because sometimes we shrink back to a comfort zone. And let's just get real, in smaller towns where everybody knows your name and everybody knows your name.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I grew up in towns where everybody knows your name. It's fabulous.

Right.

I love it. There is so much beautiful about it. But as I have done this work over the past 30 years, and still, I'm still very embedded in rural communities. I might live in a metro area now. Actually, I don't live with a zip code right now, which is kind of fun. Super cool. But guess what? That was a decision. And I built my business so that it fit that lifestyle.

Right.

So there's nothing wrong with that lifestyle. And we don't need to call them lifestyle businesses. We don't need to call them something cute that you're doing. I mean, enough of that, right? If it is fulfilling my mission and I am not settling for less than what I'm capable of, less than what I want.

Yeah.

I'm going to say, let's call that a victory. Let's call that success.

Right.

But I think people shrink back because if I put my nose a little bit too far out there, I run the risk of getting it smacked.

Right.

And that is real.

Right.

Smacked in many different ways. Now, I could stick my nose out there. I could make a huge investment. I could put it all on the line and fail. That's a real reality.

That is a potential outcome.

It's a potential outcome.

Yep. For everybody.

For everybody. Everyone.

Yeah.

If you're doing anything at all, right? If you're not bubble wrapped and sitting in a corner, there is a potential for failure.

Uh-huh.

You could walk out your front door, twist your ankle right now.

Right.

There's a potential for failure. But when it comes to our Main Street businesses, when it comes to that highly visible entrepreneurial activity, there's so much commentary around that. I can hear it. Oh my gosh, that's really risky. Who does she think she is? Aren't these jobs good enough for her or him? What does she think she's doing? Is she capable?

Right.

Instead of walking up to that same person and saying, how can I help?

Uh-huh.

You don't need to do this alone. Yeah. We really appreciate that you are taking this opportunity. And we know that it's a little bit lonely. Like, could we have those conversations versus the backdoor conversations about what if she fails?

So it's interesting. I have felt plenty of that in the 3 years, you know, since I opened the doors to this building. And I swear, like what you just described, that is what people will get from me if they walk through these doors. If they walk through these doors and they say, I'm thinking about starting this thing, the last thing I'm going to say is, who do you think you are? Right? Right. I look at them and I say, how can I help?

How can I help?

How can I help? And then I just say, I always say, love this.

Yes. Yes.

You know, because that's people just sometimes people just need some good old cheerleading. They're really, it's really bizarre because like I have seen this community, my community at its absolute best. Just literally cheering people on. And I've seen us really strip someone down, you know. And it's interesting to me, Kim, this whole concept of what even constitutes a failure, because truly, in my mind— might sound naive, it might sound too hopeful, I don't know— but I just feel like if somebody tried and their business was open for 3 months and it didn't stay open. Is that a failure? Now, there might be pieces inside of it that failed, systems that failed, plans that failed, like, that just didn't yield the results. But that person isn't a failure.

No, right?

I don't attribute failure to people.

No, no.

And we do that, right?

Right, we do that. Well, Failure is how we learn.

It is. You don't get the results you want. You adjust and hope for better.

I wanted to learn how to ride bike. Okay, that sounds, you know, it's just like riding a bike. Well, that's BS too, because here's the thing, you can forget. And at the age of 60, I decided that I was— I love the wind in my hair. I love the feel of the open road. I remembered it and I hadn't had anybody to ride with. And finally I had a partner I could ride with. But I had this really ugly Kmart Schwinn bike that weighed like 9,000 pounds. And, you know, they do make carbon fiber bikes that go like the wind and they're beautiful and they are expensive, but they are so well worth it. So I'm out there going to make an investment in a bike. I'm going to do this. Well, I'm in the bike store. I hadn't thrown my leg over the saddle of a bike. They're called saddle, not a seat, by the way. I had to learn some vernacular because like I said, I just did around the block with the kids for my whole life. So they show me this fabulous bike and he's describing it to me and I'm looking at it going, "How do I get on this thing?" I mean, that's what's going on in my head. But everybody's watching me. I swear I thought everybody in the whole damn store was watching me. Not true, by the way.

Yeah, nobody's actually thinking about you.

Nobody's actually thinking about you.

They are. Yeah, for sure.

But I took the risk and threw my leg over that saddle. I learned now you tilt the bike and kind of ease into it. Yeah. You know, you don't have to do it like John Wayne. So I threw my leg over that saddle. I went one pedal and fell over.

Mm. In the store.

In the store. Oof. Oh, now I get up and you can only imagine my legs are shaking. And this is like that entrepreneur. You open those doors and you got that one pedal, that one pedal stroke, and you fail.

Yeah.

Do you get back up? And why do you get back up? I could tell you why I got back up that day, because there was one person that when I told them I was scared, all he said was, I'm proud of you.

Oh, that's awesome.

I'm proud of you. And I got back up on that bike, wobbled around like a 5-year-old without training wheels, just about took out $1 million worth of merchandise riding a bike inside of a store. But you know what? You know what, Rebecca? I had to fail and learn a bunch of times. I went up a 6% grade on the hard gear until I learned there was an easy gear.

Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness. So now I do 12% grades. I can bike with the best of them. Well, maybe not the best of the best of the best. I'm not Tour de France, but I can get out there. You're a Paula Jensen.

Oh, yes.

Well, that might be loaded. But this so applies to our entrepreneurs because what did I need? I needed the right tools. Biking around on a bike that weighs a bazillion pounds, I'm not going to be able to ride like the wind.

Yeah.

Okay. So the right tools. What are the right tools we can apply in a small town? Number one, we need support mechanisms, and that is people that are there to tell you the truth. So not every business should start. So we want to be able to crunch the numbers. We want to be able to look at hardcore facts, get the right business. Yeah. So right in that beginning, the right person attached to the right business, the right bike attached to the right person. I mean, I'm not going to ride the same bike as my 6-foot-6 partner would have ridden, I'm gonna ride my bike, right? And then when they fall over, or maybe before they fall over, it's just to let them know that you're probably gonna fall over. Yes, let them know that there's a good chance that that great marketing plan you had, that wonderful— maybe it's even your inventory, you thought it was going to be the best, and You're learning as you go that nope, nope, they like this, they don't like that. All of that is a natural course of doing business and is not failure. It is simply a learning process.

Right. I think that's one of the keys. Like this group of young people that I get to work with, I've told them, like, especially, especially I think if you are a highly intelligent person and you really, you really value doing things right. And that's that perfectionism, right, that can come in. And you just have to understand that there are honestly a lot of right ways to do a lot of things. And so you have to plan well. I think, you know, like you said, having the right tools, having the right support system, setting your foundation properly is super important. And you have to leave a lot of room for magic, which is, you know, flexibility and adaptability. You have to pay attention, you have to observe, you have to adjust.. And so you are gonna fall down. Like, you absolutely are. You're gonna try something and it's not gonna work. And the only mistake is if you just go, well, I'm a failure. Yeah. And you throw your hands up. And then what? You quit the whole thing because it didn't work the first time, or one way that you thought it was gonna work didn't yield the results you want? Absolutely not. Like, that's just learning. And there's nothing you could have done at the The other mistake that, like, super intelligent perfectionist people— and I felt this way for the longest time— was like, well, it's because I'm not— I wasn't smart enough, I didn't research enough, I didn't whatever. And there's a huge difference between being a beginner and being bad at something. Yes, beginners just aren't good.

No, period.

No. So embrace the beginner's mindset and tell yourself, okay, I'm gonna do the absolute best I can, I'm gonna prepare, right? The preparation is huge, but it's like these things trickle in even later. And the other thing we talked about, and I just get your opinion on this, it's like if we are waiting for things to get easier, like in any respect, good freaking luck. Like what we're supposed to do, I think, is get better at dealing with hard things.

Yes.

Yes. Because the, the truth is, like, even if you hit measures, like big measures of success, let's say you get to $1 million in revenue, which is like a crazy dream for a lot of people, right? They would generate $1 million of revenue. Well, I promise you, you hit that benchmark, a whole lot of problems you didn't ever see coming are coming associated with that success.

Yes.

Right. And you're not going to anticipate or know what those things are until you're standing in front of them. So again, some of it is that embracing the process of the whole thing, right? Like, it's just It's all about your mindset. So much about your mindset. Not entirely, but a lot.

It is a lot about it. And I couldn't help but think, how can we support people through that process? Because truly, this idea that somehow, oh, they're an entrepreneur, they're self-made, they go it alone. No, no, just say no. It's everyone from your family to your friends to your neighbors, to people you don't even know yet that can be on the team, that can be. And how can we? And I don't know that I have 100% of the answer to this, but wouldn't it be great if instead of saying, oh my gosh, that might not work, that we actually embraced failure?

Right.

I mean, Silicon Valley is failure city.

That's all they do.

That's all they do. If you are not failing, you are not creating.

Right.

I mean, my son is a self-taught engineer, and I can't tell you how many major failures there have been. I mean, yeah, it's one car he had, he rebuilt 10,000 times because he hadn't learned about whatever it was he was supposed to learn. But unless he tried it, unless he put it together and put it on the road, he was not going to learn whether it worked or not. Right. But nobody, when it came to that car, said, oh my gosh, you're such a failure.

Right.

They just said, oops, that didn't work. Now what?

Yeah.

And I think if we embrace as a community, as small communities especially, where we do, we know everybody's name. And if we actually embrace that, open that up to say, I'm so damn proud that you're willing to try that, that you're willing right now to try because we really need that. We need people who are willing to do that. And if you fall over on that damn bike or on that dang store or on that dang business, if you fall over, we're still going to be proud of you. And I think that is a message that we have to start when our kids are very small.

Oh my gosh.

I was lucky enough to be raised that way, but I forgot it too. I forgot it. I got it drilled out of me a time or two, but then I surrounded myself with people who were willing, as I say in my book, to kick my backside with love and to tell me the truth if I was totally off track, to tell me the truth. We need those people. Then we need those people that just say, all right, go after it again. Can I give you a tip?

Yeah.

And you have the choice whether or not to take that tip.

Totally.

I mean, you really do. Yeah. But can I give you a tip? Right. And I will be proud of you. I will just— however it works, I will simply be proud that you are willing to do this. It sounds so darn simple, but it's not. But it's not in practicality.

And that's why it's hard.

I think it is very hard.

And the reason small communities can be challenging— I mean, honestly, what I started thinking about when you're talking about this is our sports teams and how, like, if you have a couple of seasons where they lose more than they win, yeah, the following gets less, you know, because it's not as much fun to go to a bunch of games in a row where they lose over and over and over again. But we need to still remember that the kids still showed up and tried.

They tried.

And that's like, where is that just consistent support?

Yeah.

And that's hard.

It is very hard. We're kind of pushing on this and pushing on it and pushing on it. And it would be great if there was a program. It would be great if there was just this magic button we could push. Right. But it really comes down to one person at a time. One person at a time. If you are in a coffee shop, if you're in the coffee shop and you overhear someone say, oh, they're just thinking about starting, you know, they'd really like to do this and either kicking around a few tires. What would hurt if you turned on your chair just slightly and say, hey, I just overheard what you said and I think you have a— you got something there. Can I recommend? Or let me know when you're ready. Or if I can help. What would be so hard? It's that simple in our small towns.

I agree.

It's that simple. So it is an easy button. Before we got on, I mentioned that I had the opportunity to, in my work with developing community development financial institutions and working in small towns, building business centers, that I did some research as part of some work I did with the state of Minnesota. And do you want to know what the number one reason people said they didn't want to start a business in their small town was? I know the answer.

You know the answer.

Please tell the audience.

Please, Rachel.

Is they were afraid of failure. They were afraid of what the neighbors would say if it didn't work. And sure enough, I saw this come to pass. Small town, I'll leave the name out. 3 businesses close within 3 months on the same street.

That's tough.

That's tough.

Holy smokes. Yeah.

Did those businesses make the front page before they failed? Did the newspaper do an article about 3 new businesses opening up on Main Street? Was there some whoopla and horns blowing when those people stepped in courageously, rented those spaces and tried something out? Right. The answer to that is no. But all 3 of them close at once. Oh my gosh. Let's slap that right on the front page. Yeah. Never a mention of courage, never a mention of next steps, never an interview with the actual owners.

Ah, see, and that—

Embracing this.

And that is why your number 1 answer for why people didn't want to try anything. That's why.

That is why.

Is because, yeah. And I hate that so much. Like, I legitimately do. The idea I have, by the way, so I want to say for the record, in Oaks, I really think our community, we do a really good job of celebration. Yes, you do. We have a Chamber of Commerce that they just do such a good job of making sure She's constantly putting things in the paper, and that's awesome. Like, the good stuff, right? But I think another idea that I've had is, like, I would really love to find a way to just hold, like, a public conversation once or twice a year where we just say, what are the things that we tried in the last 6 months that we just basically, like, an AA meeting, you know, where you walk in and you're like, I'm Rebecca, and I tried this thing, and they go, hi, Rebecca, we're proud of you. You know, like, can you imagine? Just collectively finding a way to collectively celebrate the things we tried. The other thing, like, and you get this and I get this, we talked about this, like, you just, you never know by your faithful, courageous step out who watched you and took an action. Like, you, we never actually know the full magnitude of our impact on other people because unless they call you and say, hey, I just want you to know, which is awesome when people do that.

Yes.

But for the most part, you don't know. But people are watching you, and that's impact, right? And that's super important.

Well, and back to those kids, giving this message to our kids. If they just see things closing and don't understand why, Or they're just always told, this is scary. I don't know if you want— no, you should just— oh, just get a job. And I'm all for just getting a job. There's more than one right answer for how we make a living in this world.

Yes.

But there's a great deal of emphasis put on getting a job versus creating a job.

Yeah, it's like doing the smart thing.

Doing the smart— and why is that considered the smart thing? Right. I have 3 kids and only one of them finished college. And guess what? She's now my business partner, owning half of a business plus one of her own. Right now, we grew up having conversations about— or they grew up, and I did too, having conversations about how to use your skills to make a living.

Yeah, yeah.

Simple conversations. How could I turn that into a business? Would it be okay if I did this? And really engaging our kids in those types of conversations versus here's the safe route.

Right.

Because in our small towns, and I'm coming today from an 1800-mile road trip from Arizona.

And when I travel, I travel through small towns, which I love that you do, by the way. I love it. I think that's so cool.

I see a place, oh my gosh, the best bread in the world. Dixie's, somewhere in South Carolina. You see a blue and white awning and it says Dixie's Bread, you stop.

All right, got it.

Just you stop.

It's kind of like bread.

So, but that's, those are the gems we find in small towns. So I am all over the idea of fostering the towns in a manner that is sustainable, right? In a manner that fits the community. So we talk about businesses fitting individuals' lives. We also need to have businesses that fit our communities. And not every business works, right? So yeah, here again, we need to be honest about what works, what doesn't. We need to have conversations on a regular basis and provide it as part of our daily education. Yeah, whether we're 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 14. I started my first business at 14. And it started from a simple desire to get a real pair of jeans. No elastic stirrup pants. You know, that was for way back in the day. That's what girls got to wear, was these elastic pants. I wanted jeans. Yeah, with button fly. Yeah, Lee button fly jeans. So at the tender age of 14, I started my first business solely to get a pair of Lee button fly jeans. What did you do?

What was your business?

My first business was iron clothes for people. Oh my goodness, my mother— I didn't know that. My mother had taught us how to iron from the time we were old enough to not burn ourselves.

I would hire you now. I hate ironing.

Absolutely hate ironing. Well, there was a— I found out there were people that hated ironing.

Yeah.

And I actually kind of geeked out on it, and I was fast.

My grandma Dorothy was a really good ironer. She loved it. I have so many memories of her ironing. Like, she had all the stuff out in her kitchen. She just like nickel Turn on a soap. Oh my gosh.

Speaking of soaps. Okay, that was the other sidebar. So teaching our kids just, or even as adults, to be aware of what people need, that is, what problem do you solve? That turns into a business, right? So that is a natural course of business. So as I'm ironing clothes for my new clients, guess what? There were no DVDs back in that day. And my client really liked the soaps, but she could only catch the first half on her lunch hour and she'd always miss the second half. So I said, "Oh, I could watch the soap for you." She threw in an extra couple of bucks so I'd watch the second half of the soap while I was ironing. Bring her up to speed. So I was the first human DVD player or DVR or whatever it is. I recorded the doggone thing. But it was just simply, okay, I can watch a soap.

You're like, well, Stephanie, what's it up to? No good. Sorry. I was like, oh, Stephanie. Yeah. Oh, way, way back when.

Oh, God, I love it. But teaching your kids that things like that are okay.

Right.

We don't have to wait for somebody to come and save us. We actually have the skills and the ability to do most of this ourselves.

Right.

And embracing that, embracing the hard work it takes. I mean, I still had to do all the other things, right?

I didn't like to go to school.

I had to go to school. I was not an athlete, but major baton twirler. So I still had to do all the things. So I think in the end, it's really, well, number one, embracing failure. Yeah. So we don't have to be afraid of it, right? Allowing that space where we just simply say, I'm I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you for being willing to stick your nose out that far. Can you imagine if more people just said, thanks for trying. Thanks for trying.

Yeah. Thanks for trying.

Yeah. And how can I help? And how can I help? I think, you know, when I wrote The DAMN Plan, I talk about one of the most courageous things I ever did in my life was to ask for help. We haven't taken the time to touch on that today, but truly asking for help in any facet of our life, especially, I mean, in business, because somehow we're supposed to know all this stuff.

No, right? No.

That mechanic does not have to know about how to keep books. They just need to know how to find somebody that knows how to keep books.

Exactly.

They need that link.

And that's just it. The connections and the networking. Why can't our communities stand in that stead for a business owner.

Absolutely right.

We have history of successful business owners. They didn't do it by themselves either.

No.

So I love— this is such a generous, and in my mind too, just the only way to help ease that burden or to ease that transition for people that want to start new things. I'm so glad that you came to OOPS! today. So fun. And by the way, Kim's book Everything will be linked in the show notes. So people can find you and come and work with you.

And rural towns, you can't take the rural out of the girl. You just can't. As I was driving across, coming up through South Dakota, coming across into North Dakota today, I'm just going, oh, there's so much beauty and so much peace here. How can we also create the prosperity that people need and allow them to live where they love? Yeah, truly just to be able to live very well where they love. And I think that is the mission of our small towns is they are so needed. They are so needed. And we don't— they don't need to be an afterthought in this country. We just take work. We just take work.

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of your perspective today. So happy to know you. You're an absolute friend of our work for sure. And a dear friend to me too.

Well, and likewise. Likewise. And what a gift. And it's all about showing up. I just said, Rebecca, I'm coming up through your way. I'm going to show up.

Yeah.

And here we are.

Here we are.

And I hope somebody out there got the message, the most important message. There's no shame in asking for help. You definitely do not need to go it alone. And if you fall off the damn bike, surround yourself with people who will just say, I'm proud of you for trying.

Love it. Okay, come on back to us soon, Kim.

I will.