131. The Value of a Small-Town Chamber with Kausha Magill

Our guest on today's episode is Kasia McGill. Kasia is the director of the Oaks Area Chamber of Commerce. She offices right in my building, right alongside me. She was my first officemate, and she has come to be such an important, just like, sane-making part of my life. I'm so grateful to her, honestly, every single day. But today she joined me on the podcast, which is awesome. It's not her favorite thing, but she's awesome at it. She's so much better at it than she gives herself credit for. If you know people like that, give them a shout out today. She joins us to talk about her role as our chamber executive. So again, we're in a town of 1,800 people. A lot of small communities either don't have a chamber or used to have a chamber, and there's a lot of conversation around the value. Like what really is the value of a chamber? I think here in Oaks, we are super blessed to have one of the best. Kasia achieves an incredible amount of work in very part-time hours. And so we sat down just to talk about that, how she approaches the work, why she thinks it matters. And also we just talk about a few things that we think make our community special and why, in the hopes that there are things that you can activate in your own small towns. So without further ado, Enjoy this episode with my good, good friend Kasia McGill. Hi, Kasia.

Hello.

Thanks for coming to the show.

Sure.

I know this isn't your favorite thing in the whole world, but you and I are like 100% partners in crime. I would say mostly crime. We do good things too, I think.

Well, yes. Yeah, we do.

So for our audience. You're our chamber— you are the director of the Chamber of Commerce here in Oaks. And again, like, when I think about the people that listen to this podcast, like, they're always looking for ideas, right? Some of the communities that listen to this thing are like way smaller than Oaks. Some are, you know, way bigger. And you and I both know that the size of your community doesn't necessarily determine the size of your heart or what you're capable of doing, but it often dictates the resources that might be available. So can we just start by talking a bit about how our chambers organize? Just give some kind of stats about the chamber, how often you work, all of those kinds of things, and then we'll just kind of, kind of go from there.

Okay. So I'm 3 days a week. I'm part-time. So, you know, try to keep those consistent. So it's Tuesday, Wednesday, 9 to 5, Thursday, 9 to 1. Yeah. Now we have events, so that doesn't mean that those hours stay that way. I usually put in more than that. Irrigation days, town celebration, wine walk. That's become a big deal. We did our second year with that again, putting in some more hours there.

Right, right. So how many chamber members does Oaks have? Again, for everybody, most people know, I say it a lot, Oaks has got about 1,800 people in it. How many businesses are in our chamber membership?

So on the directory that we send out, there's about 125.

Yeah. Which I think is a really good number.

Yes.

What am I comparing that to? Not really anything. It feels fairly anecdotal, but I feel like most of our businesses— this is true, right? Most of our businesses that operate in Oaks are chamber members, right?

There's very few that are not.

Right. And I think that's something worth talking about. So why do you think that is? Why do you think our local businesses, how do they benefit?

Well, and that's the thing. When I first came, that number was not that large.

Right.

And that was the thing when I went and asked, would you join the chamber? I was new. I had no idea how you were all shiny and bright.

Like, oh, this is so fun.

And then they're like, why should I join? Like, what benefit is it to me?

Yeah.

And so I really had to go back and look like, yeah, why?

What do we do for people?

Right. And why would they want to join? And so I try to every time, like, okay, what is that benefit? And it has to be, in my mind, it has to be big enough that they see their dollars that they put in, that they'll get it back, that they can justify that to the bottom line, that this is worth it being a part of it. And I think the more events we do, the advertising. Yeah, I really try as much as I can to put their information first and foremost in, in the things that we do, right?

I mean, you really do a fantastic job of that. But I think it's interesting because you office now right here in, in our building, right? Which is awesome. I love it too. It's so fun to have you right here because we're a community that's big enough where there's some separate resources allocated to the Chamber of Commerce, but we should talk about how you're funded because there's not really a bucket of money that the Chamber of Commerce gets. So we're gonna, we'll come back to that. But then we have funding for economic development, right? So we have kind of those two, I don't wanna say typical or standard, maybe groups. A lot of times if you get a little bigger, then you get like a CBB or like a, like a tourism group, right? We don't have one of those in Elks. So it's really so fun to me because I just think there's so much overlap. And again, like, I'm new to economic development. I don't have a traditional outlook on what our role is. So sometimes I feel like a fish out of water, which, you know, I have talked to you about that a lot. But I think the quality of life stuff and is our community the kind of place where people actually want to live? That's what I think drives economic development, right? Because businesses want to like you're gonna wanna start a business in a town where people wanna live.

Sure.

Workforce is a huge challenge, right?

Well, it's a challenge anywhere.

It is. Yeah, it is. And I don't know if it's specific, if the Midwest, I don't know, like across the nation, but I know it's absolutely a challenge across the Midwest. So I love having you here for all the reasons, right? It sucks to do this work all by yourself for one, right? And then two, we're always saying like, How do we work together? Like, how do we put our minds and resources as much as we can together? And I just think that's why Oakes is such a fantastic community. Like, I don't know, again, a lot of Oakes people don't listen to our podcast. So all I wanted to do is talk with you about like, what are some of the things we're doing? How are we approaching some of this work so that other towns can maybe take some hints from us, right? So you can either start there or we can go back to how the chamber's actually funded because that's interesting too.

Okay. I think the funding thing is important because it's only on membership. So I'm the type of person that, that drives me. I, because it's my wage, which is part-time and any, and not anything, but a lot of the things that we do is driven by the membership.

Right.

That's our money.

That's the revenue that you count on.

Yes. To operate for the year. Now there are certain events that we have, and yes, we can, like you said, there are other funds. We can go to the city and get the tourism dollars for Irrigation Days because that justifies that. Right. The Wine Walk, same thing. We're bringing in people outside of our community. We can track that. I can go to city council and say, this is how many people we brought in. They stayed overnight, all those things. So again, I can dip into that fund a little bit.

Yeah. And so that fund, again, for our listeners that maybe are like, they have a tourism fund, it's specifically the lodging tax.

Yes.

And that tax comes into our city account, I guess we'll call it.

It goes to the state.

Yeah.

The state allocates it back to the city. Mm-hmm. And it's quarterly. Yeah.

Yeah. And so that bucket of funding is, I mean, technically in our city anyway, we don't have a dedicated tourism group, kind of like we were talking about.

Right.

And so for me and in my mind, like the chamber is the closest because you're the organization. Now there's other groups. I shouldn't say that. Like you're also part of Bear Creek Rough Riders. You put on an enormous rodeo once a year. You could absolutely make the argument that that draws in visitors.

Oh, sure. I mean, I think we have several events that draw in visitors.

We do. We do.

But as far as like tourism, if, if you're looking for something, I get a lot of phone calls.

Of course.

Yeah. You know, where do I find this? Do you have, you know, lodging? And yes, you know, we want them to go to the website. You and I are working on that again. But sometimes you just have people that just pick up the phone and call and like, how can you help me?

Yeah, right. I don't think the average person, even in our, our little town, unless they've been on the chamber board, have any clue how many questions and how random those questions are that you field. In part-time hours. Like, so besides marketing everybody's stuff, which is really takes a lot of time, you're also one of the first faces of this community. It's really, it's a lot. And that to do in part-time hours.

That ties back to what is the benefit to the business. And I tell them that as a business here in Oaks, you probably don't realize the amount of phone calls I get or the increase, you know, whatever that is on email. Mm-hmm. My job is chamber first. If you're not a chamber member, and I can't fill it through my chamber membership, yes, I will recommend you, but it's always going to be my members first. Right. Which I try to say that in itself is another benefit that you have by being a part of us.

Yeah. So it's interesting, Kasia, like, I think chambers, like, in North Dakota, there is a North Dakota Chamber, right? And then there's North Dakota Economic Development. They're separate. They're separate groups. But there's always this conversation of, like, are chambers relevant anymore? You know, just because they have a long history, chambers of commerce. What do you say to that? Like, if people would ever question that, what would you say to that? Because again, I think we're a successful small town chamber.

Okay, so as a chamber, what things would go away if our group, our board, and myself as a director were no longer? And I started listing those. I think people would be very uncomfortable.

Yeah, they would go, wait, what?

Right. Like I mentioned, you know, our town celebration in June is 4 days long, and it happens every year.

It didn't happen during COVID 2020 was the one year, right? And then what are we, annual or 53? Okay, 53 this year. 53 years in a row besides the year that no one did anything, which we don't, we don't have to take that as a count against us, right? Like, yeah, right. But so, I mean, that's And again, like 4 days long and you're, you're bored and you, you're tasked with filling those 4 days. So why don't we talk a bit about what happens just so people can kind of hear like, yeah.

So it starts on Thursday. We go to our big park here in town and it's a karaoke contest. Winners get, which we call Oaks Bucks or Chamber Dollars. Yep.

And that's a fun event. It is. BTW. We added that. That was when I was president of the chamber, I think, that we added that. And I emceed the first few years of it. I just think it's so fun. Like, you get local people to sign up and they live sing karaoke, right? And then, and then you have judges. You have, like, local judges that you find.

And we have— it's super fun. The PTO is out there. They've got the cotton candy and, you know, water, different things. So again, you have— we're bringing in organizations.

Yeah, so let's make sure everybody remembers this. Like, this isn't just Kasia as the director and her board of— do you have 9 currently? And 10 people is a lot of people. And then you got me and you've got Bailey that works with me. Like, we help as much as we possibly can, but it's not just those 10 to 12 people. You partner with other organizations, especially if they need fundraising dollars or their kids or their students or their whomever need community service.

Stuff, right?

You've done a really, really good job of partnering, I think.

But, and that helps. So that's Thursday night. Friday starts out, the food trucks come on Main Street. We block off 4 blocks, kind of like in a, a cross.

Yep. Like a T almost.

Yep. Right. And so food trucks, we try to get at least 9 to 10 of those. Very, some have been here for years. We have new ones that come in and out.

So that's fun. Yep.

Parade. The parade is for anyone and everyone. There's no registration fees, which people think is crazy. I still get questions on that, and I've been doing this— this will be my 4th parade.

There's no fee.

I'm like, no, just show up, get in line, there'll be somebody to help you. Yeah.

And that, again, like, being an Oaks native, you know, back when my grandparents owned this building as the Ben Franklin, right? Like, I rode floats many irrigation days in a row. And then when I was a lifeguard, I rode one for the pool. Like, so that whole evening, like the parade being an evening parade on a Friday night, it has such nostalgic— it just like baked into, you know, my memories as a kid. And so I love that my kids get that too. It's super fun.

It is. It's a very small town.

It's very small town.

Yeah. A lot of pride goes into that. And We give out prizes for floats. There's competition between the businesses.

We pick a theme.

The theme is used all weekend long.

What's our theme for 2024? Do you know yet?

We haven't decided, but our grand marshal has been in business for 50 years. That is Joe the Barber.

Joe the Barber is the grand marshal. This is new information to me. I love that. He's going to be awesome.

So you know that it's something centered around hair. We just haven't decided what the theme—

Decades of hair. Like, that's super fun.

I love it. And it has to be something that people can do on a float or they can get it.

Yeah, they can get into it. Yeah. It's actually harder than a person would think to come up with themes, kind of.

It is.

Because when you, you have years where you've announced it and people are like, I don't know what to do, what do we do? And then they call you like, can you give us ideas about a float? And you're like, oh my gosh, no, I have everything else to do. But then that's what you say is, sure, you could try this or this or this. So yeah, it's super fun. And I always laugh, like, there's nothing that screams small town more than like literally throwing candy at young children and they race out into the street to get it. And knock on wood, in 53 years we've never had any sort of an accident or any sort of— right? No, to our knowledge. Like, to our knowledge.

I mean, and you mentioned this before, I'm part of the horse club that puts on the rodeo, which is Saturday night. That's a big event.

It's a huge event.

We also ride horses in the parade. An iffy situation too. Like, okay, yeah, what are they gonna do? How long is everyone gonna be?

Well, and there's always a lot of noises. There's sometimes really big equipment. Anyway, it's so fun that that tradition has carried on because I just think it's really neat.

Well, and you have people— yes, it's for Oaks, but you have people that come also because they're not from Oaks, but they come because it is a big celebration, right?

You know, there's just fun stuff to do, right? Yeah.

Saturdays, I think very centered around family.

Absolutely. By the way, you missed Friday night.

What happens?

Yeah, go ahead.

Friday night is the parade. After the parade is— there's a street dance. Last year we had some cornhole tournaments on Main Street as well. And again, you have the food trucks. People just hang out.

Yeah, I had to miss Irrigation Days last year.

I know, I was gone.

I was out of town. I've missed Irrigation Days, but not since I've lived here, you know. So it was the first one in 15 years that I've missed, and I'm super excited that be here this year because it's just really fun. Like, the town really buzzes. Well, and people come back. Yeah, right. Yeah.

People that have—

it's reunion weekend too, right? So if we have reunions or class reunions, that's when people come back. Yes.

And then you have those classes on floats again, you know.

Yeah.

Very nostalgic. Businesses have specials and maybe they're open later, that type of thing. Saturday, Family Day, you have the Lions Petal Tractor Pull. We have face painting that's free. There's games on Main Street. Again, we try to involve organizations. Our VOTEC Center here, we have the DECA and HOSA, I believe. FCCLA have also been involved. And so they took care of the games for us because like you said, as a board, we can't do everything.

No.

And so instead of them going to the businesses and asking for money and donations to fund their trips, they ran the Main Street Games, they got the money from that, right?

Yeah, I love that too because it's tying their fundraising to effort, right? And not saying because fundraising is always effort, but I'm saying instead of like saying we're selling this variety of stuff, it's like, no, we're physically here. The kids— so there's two different kid groups I'm talking about here— like the kids that are in these groups and then like helping my kids, my little kids, like decide, yeah, it's a cool way, I think, to get them— it's a little bit of civic engagement too, right? They're involved in it differently than if we were just writing them a check, which I kind of think is great.

And that's why I like it too. I mean, it's not just I'm selling some products, I'm going to knock on everybody's door. Yeah, you're actually doing something and your efforts are seen, right?

Yeah, I think that's neat. Okay. And then Saturday night, rodeo.

This is rodeo. That's pretty big. We have all events. It's rough stock, it's the roping and everything. Our average is about 500 people every year.

And that's incredible because it's a— that's a lot of out-of-town people.

Yes.

Right. Like, if you had to just— I mean, this is a total stab in the dark maybe, but what's the split between local people and non-local people, do you think?

Non-local, totally over half.

Yeah, that's okay. That's what I would think too. It's really, really special that we have that right here in our town. And again, it's like the hard work of a, of a group.

But, well, and again, there's a group. We are a small group. We're getting older. Yeah.

Calling all horse lovers. Could you please come and participate?

Yeah, right. The average age is getting older of our, our horse group. But so we've involved another group. They provide the concessions and that is the FFA here in town with their FFA Alumni Association. And they put on all the concessions because we can't do it all. Right. So I like that too. You're involving more groups again, trying to put on these events and bring people together.

Yeah.

And then you have a street dance again.

The chamber Saturday night street dance gets a little rowdier because all the cowboys come over.

It gets a little interesting. And the last couple years we've added a mechanical bull to the mix on the street. So there's that.

Yeah, that gets rowdy and super fun. Yes.

But I think one of the things You know, on Saturday is our Good Samaritan. You know, we have a pie social, and I know many people think that that's— oh my goodness.

Well, it's very traditional. Let's call it that.

But I like it. And I like that they've changed it. They brought it to your building here, right on Main Street.

Yeah.

Way more visibility.

Yeah.

People love it. They come in, they hang out, they get to taste all kinds of pies. It's a little fundraiser for them as well. Right, right. Yep.

And then Sunday, Sunday still happens on Sunday. Like there's still irrigation dazing on Sunday.

We are. The food trucks usually pull out. Some stay for breakfast, but majority have had the street dance crowds both nights and they're about— they're tapped out.

Yep.

So they take off. We have Demolition Derby, which has also been a mainstay.

Oh, yes, for sure. And run by standalone club.

Yes. Again, the Snowbusters, which also now they have involved another group of students. I can't remember which organization. They run their concession stands because again, their group has gotten older, smaller. We still wanna put these things on, but we can't do it all. Right.

And the other thing you're outlining, Kasia, and this is why again, I, think a lot about with growing small towns, like, who are we going to help and how are we going to help them? Like, in these small communities, a lot of these clubs are nonprofits.

Oh, yes.

And in fact, almost all of the ones that you're talking about— Bear Creek Snowbusters, Lions Club, and then DECA, FFA, FFF, CCLA— those are all have a nonprofit or charitable cause. And so I really encourage people as they're listening to this to think about these groups and how can you support them maybe differently? How can you encourage them to come together? Because that's the— if there's one big theme of our Irrigation Days, I think, and that's largely at your direction, clearly you came in at a time we had been without a, like, a clear director for a couple of years, right? We just had a lot of turnover. We had somebody that had done it for like 25 years, right? 25 years she had done it probably. And then it like this again, we want to talk very typical small town stuff, That person leaves and it's like, holy crap, like, wow, who are we gonna get to do it? You know? And then you get somebody in and they wanna try new things and nobody wants new things. And what a transition. Like, and I think there's such stability around the chamber now because of you and your board is also very active, which is amazing. But I just think like the encouragement of people to work together and really recognizing it doesn't have to be just the same 10 people. Like you hear that so often, right? And I know we still struggle with that a bit, maybe volunteerism, you know, in Oaks, like I hear that, but when I hear that, I usually challenge back to say, well, maybe we're not making it easy for people to show up and help.

Right.

Like, is there a way that they can offer a piece of it? And it's more about aligning, I think, the opportunities to serve with what people are interested in than just saying, like, do you have a pulse? Great. Come and do this thing for an hour.

Right. And then while you're You're involved in it. We're going to vote you into an office.

Yeah, exactly. If you miss the meeting, congratulations, you're the president and you're in it for 3 years. Like, that's this, like, lifetime appointment. It's how it feels.

Well, and that was part of, you know, when I got on the chamber, I changed the membership a little bit. I thought we were missing—

Yeah, talk about some of those because we have different levels. That's what you're talking about, right?

Yeah. You know, you have retail, you have service.

And those are our standard, like, kind of standard businesses, right? Right.

Then you have— I added home-based businesses because I thought we are missing a whole thing.

Yeah, I think so.

I want to know who— I want— who sells Tupperware anymore, or who sells Mary Kay or whatever those home businesses are. How do I find that? Right. I have to find a friend who knows a friend who can give me the information. Yeah.

Again, that really comes down to how difficult it would be to move here.

Yes. How are we going to find that?

Yeah.

So then we added them. We also added organizations because again, I felt, and you and I talked about this, you move to town, how do you find the organizations, the clubs?

How do you get—

yes, how do you get involved in those clubs? Why not also have them part of the chamber? Then as part of that, I help promote their events.

I, you know, right. And they pay less. They pay less than a business. Do you wanna share? Because you could probably see this on our website anyway, right? So what are our, yeah, what are our pricing? What's our membership pricing?

It starts at $140.

Mm-hmm.

Up to $400 because it's based on employees.

Yeah. It's capped at $400.

Yes.

Okay.

Service is $115. Home business is $75. Organization's $50. All faith is free.

Yeah.

And then you can be an associate member for $35.

Like as a person, right?

As an individual person supporting the chamber. Yep.

Yep. And kind of staying in the know, right? Like you get the email blasts and stuff. Yeah. I think you think about the cost, like $50 a year, and if your stuff gets promoted and shared and it's, and there's such good traction on the chamber's Facebook page. I mean, right now, truly for Oaks, that's where Oaks gets promoted. We've talked a lot about that. I think from a community level, it's really hard when you've got, so we have the city and we've got their jobs, so we've got the chamber and you've got your stuff and then economic development. And we have no economic development outside of me personally doing it. We have no Facebook presence, right, of any kind. So just the, like, how do you promote just the general goings-on of Oaks? Well, you take that on. You technically take that on, and it's not even really 100% your role. But I think that's a challenge sometimes for small communities. Like, who does that? Yeah.

Yeah.

And where do you look if you just want to know stuff?

Well, and I think as a chamber and what we do, you talked a little bit about the email blast, you know, that's once a week that goes to about 250 emails. So again, you have to send me your information. I'm not going to go look for it because I'm going to step on somebody's toes if I put somebody's in that I went out. Same with sharing on Facebook, right? I don't go out and look at your pages to share. I don't have time. 20 hours, right?

It's just 20 quick hours. Yeah. So literally it's like, if you want it shared, send it to her, right?

Send it to me. I talk once a week on the radio, like, what are we doing? What events are coming up?

Those type of things.

Again, that's what is the benefit for being in the chamber. You give me your event, your sale, or whatever is happening with your business. I will make sure that I cover all those avenues and make sure it gets out there for you. Yep. Yep.

So when you think about OAKS in general, what do you think are some of the things that right now, from your perspective and all the businesses that you work with and stuff, what are some of the things that just like actually make us special? What are some things that are happening? Do you feel like right now in OAKS that just feel like this feels like momentum? Because I feel it.

Oh yes.

So I would love to hear from your perspective, like what you think those things are.

We do not have a single building on Main Street that is open. Every single one is full. There's something in it, and it's all a variety. We don't have a lot of overlap. We have some, which is good.

Boutiques, we've got overlap. Yeah, but they're all different.

And it's a little competition anyway. That's good for a community.

Agreed.

Yeah, I mean, just having one— yeah, I mean, it's great you have it. Yeah, again, competition always spurs Yeah, good things, I think. So I think that's very unique. I also think that our young people coming back, starting businesses or buying existing ones where people are no longer— maybe they're retired or whatever that might be— that is huge. You, you look at that, you don't see that in very many other small towns, right?

And so for people listening, what do they have to do to generate that? Like, what do you think we're doing? What are we doing in Oaks that's making that happen? It's a bunch of stuff, I realize.

Oh, it is.

But when you think about, like, if you're sitting there and you're like, I want that, I want that, because I hear people say that. I'll be like, I want young people to move back. What are some of the things we're doing?

Well, for one, you have a lot to do with it. Well, thanks.

I appreciate that. I do. You know, and I just care so much about— it's so fun. It's so fun.

You and I both know this. We have specifically asked people, young people, would you come back and do this if we helped you? And I think that's part of it too. It's pretty scary.

Yeah.

But if they know that they have help or they have people that they can come and ask questions to or help them navigate whatever that may be, that situation, that first step is a lot less scary.

Totally agree. Totally agree. I said that a number of times and I appreciate you reiterating that. Like, If there's somebody that, you know, graduated a handful of years ago and has a degree or has any experience or has any whatever it is that you go, that would help fill this thing, ask them, invite them. And maybe if nothing else, if they say, oh, like, they go, hell no, you can say, why not? And find out what it is. Like, what are the barriers that are keeping people from doing it?

Yeah, why wouldn't they come? Right? And if it is definitely a hard no, then do you have a friend that you know that— yeah, you and I have this wish list on our website.

Yeah, we do. And I think that's another tip, everybody.

Yeah. The businesses that you want to see, right? What are you missing?

What don't we have?

And I'm a person that does not like to go to Fargo. Sorry.

Yeah, that's okay. Nobody from Fargo is going to feel hurt by that. They'll be like, we don't need you anyway.

But yeah, I can get it here. Yeah, I would much rather spend the time that I would be on the road doing something else that I enjoy.

Amen. I end up traveling a lot to Fargo for work, and it's just like if I decide, like, oh, I have to make a Costco run, let's say, right? I don't enjoy it. I don't. I would rather go to our little grocery store 3 times a week to get some of the things that I need, you know? Well, and I remember it was, um, when my son, when our oldest son got confirmed, I bought every single thing that was necessary for his party and his gift and like flowers and all of it. And like the Saturday, that Saturday morning it was raining out and like it was so peaceful. I had this big long list of stuff I had to get and like everywhere I went, you know, people were happy to see me and I was happy to see them and it wasn't frenetic and chaotic and I mean, that's special that our town offers so many things that we, we can have that experience right here.

And I get for young people sometimes me saying I don't like going to Fargo. Young people are like, okay, but I want to be close enough that I can go to McDonald's or whatever that is.

Or maybe a concert, right? Something that we don't often have here.

But I think you also have to talk about that when you're trying to get them to come here. Right. Or, you know, come to your small town. Like, is there somewhere close by? Or how can you facilitate that so they still feel like they have a connection to the city here?

Exactly. Yeah, I think that's really important. I also think that, like, demonizing Amazon is like— we could look at it differently because honestly, if there are certain things that you can get delivered to your doorstep from Amazon, it makes the inconvenience of being really far from that city kind of irrelevant, right? You know, so again, it's just thinking about how do we position these conversations, and I'm just not one to back down from it. If we're missing something, I'll be honest about that. But then that's the cool thing too. There's been two conversations I've had, one with TJ who has just recently moved back. She asked about snowshoeing, but there's two other women in town that I know have snowshoes. They've just talked about it, and she was like, do you guys like have a snowshoeing club? I laughed. I was like, nope, but you could start one. She was like, well, maybe I will. And like, literally that would be a quick post, maybe on Facebook, maybe on the chamber saying, hey, if you have snowshoes, meet us at 3:00 PM at the golf course and we're gonna walk some hills in our snowshoes together.

I don't know.

Right. That's an example. And then the second one was this family that I was talking to last year and she asked, if anybody kayaks on our river. And I said, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times it's people that like live out there, like people that live in the country. They use our river a lot. They boat on it, they fish on it, right? You know, they tube down it, they water ski down it. I've seen people do all of these things, right? And she's like, huh, I wonder if Oaks would ever wanna have a kayaking club. And I was like, maybe, right? And so it just really comes down to like even the list of businesses on our website. Why would we ever say, well, no one will want to do that here? You have no idea. You have no idea. Some of the bigger city, like, air quotes, services, like nails and estheticians and like a brewery— like, we're gonna have a winery, right? These are big city things that with the right person and the right support, you could absolutely make it work in a community like ours.

Oh, absolutely.

And, and I just think we need to like Open the minds up, folks. What do you want to see?

Right. And be willing to ask.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, the worst thing is they're going to say, no, I don't want to move to your town. Okay. But like you said, then you follow up. Why? What could we do to make that easier or make you even like think about it for a little bit? Do you just put that little bit of seed in there? Like, this is what we could help you with. This is what we're offering to get you to come back.

And the other thing, by the way, so you were talking businesses, talking about young people coming back. Our Main Street also looks amazing.

Yes.

That's another thing. I think the aesthetics of our little town are like top notch.

Well, that goes back to economic development where we have a program to help our businesses. It's called the Bump Grant.

Right.

And if you're updating the front of your building now, I believe inside as well.

Yep. There's two different kind of phases of that project. Yep, or of that program.

Economic Development will help you with some of those costs, and it's cost-sharing grant.

Yeah, but a huge—

because really Main Street looks great and people notice that and they ask, how did you get it to look the way that it is? And that, I really do believe that is part of that.

I think so too, but it still comes down to, I think this is a people thing. The community of Oaks really does have a lot of pride in our community and how it looks and how it feels. Do you think, what if anything, are things that you find in your daily work? Again, this public sector work, it's often kind of thankless and kind of hard, right? Because you're just subjected to like everybody's opinion, you know? It's tough. That's why we have each other in this giant building. Sometimes we're just like, oh, and wine. Yes, and wine. Yep, for sure. What, if anything, do you think Oaks most needs to work on just in general? You know, we talked about all the things we're doing really well. What's something that you think we could do better?

Well, you know, when we had that competition with Valley City, you know, we had the secret shoppers.

Yes, right. Cool program, by the way. NDSU Extension. We'll make sure we tag that in the show notes because that's something two communities should absolutely figure out.

Yes.

Yeah.

Just listening to some of the things, the difficulties that they had, our signage. We all know we're a small town. We all know where everything is, right? But if, if you're new and you're coming and you're on the main drag or the main highway that goes through our town, you are not going to find City Hall.

Correct.

Or the business district. We don't have that signage.

It's literally like, well, obviously you turn right at the stoplight. What's your problem?

The only stoplight in town. Yep. Of course that's the way you go.

Yeah.

So I think, you know, that's something to work on those things. We just assume we know where everything is. I mean, even your assistant Bailey, we send her on things and she's like Googling how to find places. You're like, oh, you didn't even—

Yeah, of course there's no sign for that.

Well, and I think we're trying to address some of those with TJ and the relocation specialist, helping people navigate. Again, I know we talked about it, but navigating their interest, finding that organization. Finding the housing. We're trying to address housing.

Housing is huge. It's a huge problem. So the problem that we have, and again, this might sound crazy to people that don't live in small towns, but literally the for sale by owner market in our community is very much an underground kind of network. Basically, if one person mentions to one person that they're thinking about selling their house, then all of a sudden people are knocking on their door and they sell it without ever having to post it, you don't have to do anything. And it's really hard. Like, if you're trying to move here, there's no way you're going to get in on that. And so that's, again, with TJ in this position, we're trying to see if it helps. But still, people would have to tell her. It's really challenging.

Well, and even on our apartments, right? You have some that are listed on the website. You have some that are only in the newspaper. You have some that aren't on anything, but there's availability and you're trying to find that person.

And there's like a phone number to call. We've talked a lot about this. Like, young people especially are not gonna call a number.

They don't wanna talk to people.

Well, and not only that, but like, they have no frame of reference as to what they're calling about. If they don't have a visual to say, they would maybe pick up a phone and call your number if they saw a picture that they went, that looks like a nice place. They'd maybe make that phone call, right? But like, just a number. And I realize how hard this is for like tenured folks to get, but legitimately, I wouldn't even do that. And I'm not really all that young anymore. I wouldn't make a phone call. So then let's just play this out. So I call you, your number's listed, and I pull up to your complex and it looks rundown and awful. Well, now what am I supposed to do? I don't wanna go in there. And you're there meeting me. I mean, just really, like, that's how unfriendly, right? Is that unrealistic?

It is.

Like, we're making it harder for people to get to us. We have to figure out how to make that simpler. And access to information is where it's at. And that's why we've been hammering on our website so much, just trying to make a website that's visually appealing and has the information people really need when they're seeking out stuff, whether they're visiting Oaks or looking to move here.

I guess it's both, right? And I think, yes, we're working on it. So granted, it is something we need to—

it's not perfect. No, not yet. It won't ever be, probably.

But we know this. But if we can at least take steps to improve it, right, that would be another thing to work on, right?

So there's one last thing I want to ask you about. So we were just talking about the challenges with mindset and like when something happens in our community and people don't like it. As the chamber director and as just a person that does a lot to promote our town, what would you rather people do than to publicly say like, well, I don't, you know, just anything that's actually negative about something because they don't like it. What can we, and how can all of us just individually, how can we help? Because we just had a conversation about this, what, yesterday or the day before?

Right. Well, and one of the things you asked me is I deal with the public a lot and I might be at the post office and this has happened to me. You know what? Our Christmas decorations look terrible. Why don't we have better ones? And I said, you know, I, I'm not going to say I agree or disagree with you. I, you know, they're not that old, but they're not cheap. And once they find out the cost of that, well, then they start backtracking. So I think the biggest thing is information. Yeah.

Education and information.

Yes. So they don't like something, but did you know the whole story about it? It's not any different than an event we just had. I think this is what you were talking about, that somebody's like, well, I'm not going to pay that much for it, but they didn't realize everything that it entailed.

Right.

Which frustrates me because I hope that I in doing the job where people understand what's going on. I don't know how to change some of that. Right.

Well, I think, again, I always want to think about what are things that individual people can do? Because the people that listen to this podcast are our people, Kasia. They're the kind of people that if they came to visit us, and some of them have, right? You'll be excited to meet them. They'll be excited to meet you. They're the people out there They're the doers. They're the doers and they're promoting their community and doing all that. So then it's like, well, what else can they do besides a lot of work, which we all do? I think sometimes when you hear those things, it's actually not calling them out in a negative way, but just saying like, gosh, I hate to hear you say that. Like, I know 5 people that are coming to town for this thing. Like, hit them with information and make it positive. And then even maybe if you can remind what's in it for them that this thing is happening.

Right. There's always a benefit to somebody.

Always.

I don't care what it is, what is happening in your town, it's a benefit to somebody. So you have to take that positive and go, okay, well, this is why it's happening. And again, here's more information. So if you can load yourself with all those—

put on all the armor, walk out onto the street.

Yeah. And be knowledgeable in what is happening so that you can counteract any of that negativity. I think, granted, you may not change their opinion. Again, that's personally, that's their opinion. They have that right.

Exactly.

But you at least gave them the information maybe that they didn't have. And you're hoping as you walk away that maybe you've changed a little bit.

Yeah. Well, I think we really do. Like, there are times when I listen to this guy speak. He's actually the executive director of Job Service for North Dakota.

Yes, I know.

Right. You were there. Okay. We were talking about these people that have transplanted to North Dakota. There's a bigger picture than just a small town, but it absolutely made me think like, oh my gosh, we might be our biggest problem, right? He, he had said that like they have this amazing transition experience and they are like the biggest cheerleaders for North Dakota. And I think Oaks has that same thing. I think of like Dustin and his wife, like when they talk about what this transition was like for them, or you have somebody that had no ties settled here, had that conversation with Sarah when she came in to talk about a business, right? Like, these are real people that we know that this wasn't their hometown. They're not boomerangs. They didn't come back, and they love it here. And I think one of the challenges is how do we help? Because not all lifelong residents, they obviously love it because they live here, but they don't carry out an attitude of love for this community. Now a lot of them do, so it's— this isn't a disparagement at all, right? But it's simply saying, if someone moves here and your first question is, why would you move here? You're the person I'm talking to and about, like, how do we help you see how that kind of frame is not great? Like, we should be like, well, of course you moved here, like, we love it here, why wouldn't you love it here?

And what can we do to help you?

What can we do? Yeah, how Can we help?

Because you just talked about Dustin and Alicia, and, you know, I wonder— I would really like to ask him, and he was on my board, and Alicia is on my board now, how many people have they helped? Because you and I both know when they come in here and he brings somebody new, and the last person he brought did not work anywhere near the banking where he's at. I know, his insurance office.

I still don't even get How did that happen?

They went there for insurance.

Oh yeah, he went. Yeah, he went for insurance. And Dustin's like, you need to meet some people and brought them around. Like, not paid to do that. No, not part of his requirements. But he remembers what it was like to be a newcomer here. And that, I think, is the encouragement is to all of us lifers. And I'm not a lifer. I was gone, right? But I'm like lifer again. Put on the eyes of a newcomer. And especially if you see somebody at an event, like especially let's say like a sporting event, and you don't know who they are and they're alone and they're wearing your school colors, go ask them, right? I know it feels super weird, but like we have several examples of people where they were, they were either here for a new job and they did that, or they were like gonna, they were dating somebody that moved here and then they're there to support their partner. And we all like look at them and we all talk about them like, who's that person? And I wonder, yeah, do you know who that person is? And like they're standing there. Can you imagine what that even feels like? I feel sometimes like our community might be really challenging to break into.

Right.

You know? And so the whole thing is how do we make it more welcoming? How do we break down some of that? And some of it is just us opening our eyes a bit, I think.

Well, and like you said, people listening to this obviously are the doers.

They are.

Remember that. Be Dustin. Yes. This person has— doesn't work for your company, doesn't even come close. He's younger, but you take them under your wing. Yeah. And I was like, oh, does he work? No, he works for a whole different company.

And he— this guy loves this town. He's from California, right? So again, like, we're talking about real humans that we've seen these, like, just general goodwill and general helpfulness. It's kind of funny, like, that's what small towns are thought of. Like, we think of small towns when we think of, like, neighborliness and helping people out and stuff. But I don't know in practice that it always happens like that. Once you're in and you establish connections, everybody's super helpful. And now the whole charge, I think, for all of us is how do we make that right out of the gate? That we're here to help you, that we want you to love it here, you know?

Well, and like you said, just remember that, like, when you see somebody new, hi, I'm so-and-so, can I help you? You know, anything, any kind of, just to give—

you can even say, how do you like Oaks? How are we treating you?

Yeah.

And if they go, oh, it's great, and then you just say, how can I help? Is there anything you still need that you haven't gotten? You're a resident, you know stuff. You maybe don't feel like you're in an official position to do this, but I promise you, like, you know stuff that that person probably could use.

Well, because again, like you and I talked, you're in the town for so long, you just assume everybody knows where they can find whatever. Yeah, they can't.

That's right. And I, you know, when I came back and it's been 15 years, which is crazy. I mean, I'd been gone for a decade. Like a lot of stuff had changed and It really was hard to break in. I worked from home. A lot of folks now, if we're bringing in people and they like— if there's one spouse, let's say, like if it's a partnered couple and one works like at the hospital or one works at the school and the other one is doing something remote, that human is going to need some support, right? Because they don't have a built-in like employee network, right? They don't have colleagues to help them along. So all of these things are things I think about all the time, and I'm just so grateful to have you in my building because every single time, like, we hit a challenge or we see something that's a challenge, we immediately go like, what could we maybe try? We're very willing to try stuff in this space together. And I just think that's half the battle too. You have to be willing to try. We've had some things that have not gone successfully, wouldn't you say? And then that's what the wine is for.

I think that's all part of the learning process too.

It totally is. People just need to know that not everything's going to sing, right? And it's okay. It really is okay. But we got to try. And I think we've done a lot of interesting and unique and different things.

Well, and you and I have laughed about certain things that when people see us coming together, it's like, oh no.

Oh God, here they come. What are they going to—

what's going on?

I always laugh. I'm like, they're smiling too much and they're walking with purpose. And we're both kind of taller in stature.

I like it.

I think it's a good duel.

It is.

So again, thank you. Thank you for all the work that you do. Thank you for helping make this community truly what it is, because all of these pieces have to somehow work together. And, um, it's not always easy. Like, groups get really siloed in small towns. It's weird. You wouldn't think that would happen. Like, it would be— you think it'd be so much easier. But we just sometimes put blinders on and forget to kind of open up and look side to side. And so I'm just so thankful to have you here, have you in our community, have you in my building. And thanks for coming and sharing what a successful small town chamber can look like.

Well, thank you. It's, it is a fun job. I thoroughly enjoy coming to work every day. And just for people out there, I am not a life— well, I'm probably a lifelong resident now, but I am not from this area or even the state.

So, right. And that's— I would say that's the last tip for anybody listening to this, is don't count out your transplants for bringing incredible value to your community. You know what I mean? I think sometimes we tell ourselves some of these things, these positions, like, need to be somebody that has deep, deep ties. I don't think that's true anymore. And again, even Pat's message, right? We're like, a really successful transplant to your community, like if they end up making this community their home, they're bigger cheerleaders than sometimes our lifers, you know? So it's just how can we all cheer more and look for the positive and promote the good and all of those things, right? Okay. Thanks for being on the show, friend.

Thanks for having me in the office.

Yep. Well, wouldn't want you anywhere else, frankly. It's good. You're so good for my sanity. It's amazing. Thanks so much.

Thank you.