134. Strategic + Artistic Community Development

Our guest on today's episode is Maggie Strong. Maggie works in Quincy, Illinois, and she first reached out to me after having listened to one of our podcast episodes. And then she and I hopped on a quick call, and honestly, within just a couple of minutes, I knew I wanted to actually have her on the show and just discuss basically what she's experienced in the fields of community and economic development. She has a really lovely approach. She happened to— we talk a little bit about her mentor. She has an art background. She was an art major. And so we really discuss a lot about that as a lens to further and enhance the vibrancy and vitality of communities, along with just talking about the impact on general quality of life. I think for anybody that is trying to do Good Work in Small Places, even though Quincy is a town of 40,000 people, she, she opens with that. She admits that so much of what she and I visit about here, um, there are real takeaways of things that every single one of us can do regardless of if you fancy yourself a community development person or not. So with that, enjoy this episode with Maggie Strum. Well, hey Maggie, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Yeah, so let's talk about your work a little bit. You and I got a chance to visit a couple weeks ago, maybe, as kind of the precursor to our episode recording. And as we started talking, I'm like, oh my goodness. And then it was like, let's save some of that for the podcast. So do you just want to give a little bit of background what it is that you do, and then we'll just kind of go from there?

Yeah, so I'm from a bigger small town. So I'm in Quincy, Illinois, born and raised. And You know, it's a big town, 40,000, but we, we kind of act like a small town because we're pretty isolated as far as bigger towns being further away from us. I work in a lot of small towns. I was an art major in college because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do and then fell into marketing. And then one day I started working at a place called Economic Development, Great River Economic Development Foundation. Didn't really know what economic development was.

Yep.

But I got connected there through some other volunteering that I was doing in town and I learned that I loved this thing because I loved my community. So I got to learn under one of the best economic developers I think there ever has been, who really believed that quality of life was the most important piece of growing your community. And I spent 8 years there and then I decided, you know what, I think I wanna do some things on my own. So I started working with nonprofits and small towns and helped with community needs assessments, helped with strategic planning, just anything that needs to help start change. So really love to work with communities, small communities especially, in spurring the change that they know they need and kind of working through that. So that's what I've been doing for the last 10 years.

Yeah, it's awesome. I— okay, so, so a few things we're gonna— I always like listen, I hear something and I'm like, okay, we gotta come back to that. So I really wanna come back to this mentor that you referenced.

Yes.

Because quick question, like how long was this? It was a gentleman, right?

You said it was a gentleman. Yes.

How long was he? How long had he been in economic development when you started working with him?

Yes. So Jim and Pesti, we call him the godfather of economic development around here, and he is retired. He's an older gentleman, but I spent 8 years with him and he started out in, I think, development in our local university. And then somebody one day said, hey, we wanna start an economic development foundation. Will you, will you run it? And so he was there for 26 years and I got to spend the last 8 with him. And it was just, he just has a love for the community and he had a way of connecting people. And I think that's what I picked up from him the most is like making those connections.

That's incredible. And in fact, I'm sitting here, when you and I get off this call, I wanna ask him if he would come on this show. There's something really special about this. A couple things, I think. It's not that often, at least, you know, in the folks that I've visited with, and I'm not saying it doesn't happen ever, 'cause that wouldn't be, that wouldn't be fair, but that somebody with that kind of tenure in the actual field of economic development to actually prioritize quality of life. I feel like I came into this, I too was like, okay, I know technically, like air quotes, what economic development is, but I don't know all the things that go into it. And I, I just really do believe that there's kind of a renaissance happening around, you know, like a reimagining around what economic development is, what, what communities really need. And again, it's not to say that the traditional stuff, which is basically job creation and business development, right? Like of the attraction. And really it's attraction. It usually was just an attraction-based model. Like we want bigger employers. Well, I feel like I don't know, and I, I'll be fascinated to hear what you think about it now that you've been in it for a decade. 'Cause I've only been doing straight up economic development work for maybe 5 years total, like a handful, right? My background was in org development, so I bring this clear people lens to this work. That's why I'm kind of this weirdo, like I'm an outsider a little bit, right? And it's okay. I think it's super important, but the fact that you got to work alongside with and meet someone that had that kind of experience and he still prioritized quality of life. What a gift.

He was ahead of his time for sure. And that quality of life thing, I mean, he really practiced what he preached because actually I got to know him through an arts festival that he started. As the economic developer, he realized we needed to start a fine arts festival. And so that's how I started volunteering there. And that's how we got to know each other. How my career began, really. It made me so cool. Yeah. And then that marries my whole, like, I was an art major in college and then economic development. So that, like, thinking creatively and acting strategically just all kind of came together. And I really do credit Jim with a lot of that.

Well, I just think it's actually, it's really special because it's, and I will, I'll say this. And again, like, for our small, like, our truly small town listeners, which a lot of them are, I mean, that's mostly who listens to the show are people You know, and again, small can be, small can be 40,000 people.

Yeah.

You know, I get that in a town of 1,800, it seems it's different, but the principles that make communities great hold, they really do. And you just might be looking more at neighborhoods versus the entirety of a thing. But I just feel like, you know, the folks listening to this, a lot of times we have this desire to somehow bring arts and kind of culture to the forefront. And it's almost— I feel like it's almost always, which I'd never say always, Nikki, because that would be too dramatic. But I do think it's so easy to deprioritize or to push to the bottom of any sort of a list.

Exactly.

Because it doesn't seem like it matters that much. Can you share some from your experience, whether it's personal even? Because I'll tell you, I don't really care if my guests come on and share anecdotal stuff, because that's storytelling, right? It matters to us because it happened to us. And I think anecdotes are important. So what have you seen or what have you experienced coming, having come from an art background?

Yeah.

That, you know, what, what is it about art that really is such a key part of economic development from your experience and, you know, professionally and what you've lived?

Well, I think it's just such a Art is power, right? It's so powerful because it connects people. It gets people to think outside the box a little bit. Sometimes we get stuck in our ways and we just don't stop thinking, you know, this is what I have to do, ABC. But then you see a piece of art, you see a piece of public art and you're like, wait a second, you know, this is gonna knock me out of my path, my regular thinking, and it's gonna shake me up a little bit. So I think he recognized that and I recognize that now, which is why, you know, one of the things I do as a volunteer is I chair our public art arts commission because it's so important as even a business attractor. I believe people are looking, they're driving around your community, right? And they're saying, this is different. It's not the same old thing. My downtown looks different because I have these huge murals, this 5,000 square foot mural that we put together 10 years ago that's still beautiful and vibrant. And I think that makes people just think a little bit differently about what the community might have to offer and what they value, right? So I think my work with the Public Arts Commission really came from recognizing that community needs that kind of shaking up of seeing something beautiful and kind of recognizing that any part of your community can have that beauty. So one of the projects we're working on right now is, uh, we have a local soup kitchen and we're really blessed because obviously housing is an issue everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. So right across from that local soup kitchen, we have New Market rate housing going in, beautiful. And I would say on the higher end, and people are thinking, you're putting this across the street from a soup kitchen. But to me, that's what community's all about. And so as a part of this, you know, this is community. It's the people that need help. It's the people that are being, you know, employed at our hospitals and are able to have a little bit more. And it's, they're all together. We don't wanna hide that from each other. So one of the things that we're doing is putting a mural on that soup kitchen that really is gonna reflect back to these new houses. And it kind of, I think, connects the two very different parts of our community in a way that is really beautiful.

I think that's incredible. And so I, let's, let's go back to, so this comment of like it's a business attractor because, so there's two things I wanna, I wanna come back to. One being, what do you think a community that clearly has some investment in the arts, whether it's public art or whatever, you said you can, you, you can kind of drive through a town or a community and you can feel it, right?

Absolutely.

For those businesses, what do you think it says about the people in that community? About, you know, for a community that invests in art, like what?

Yeah. I think these businesses and just individuals who you're trying to attract, they see that there's, you place value on something bigger than yourselves, right? And then bigger than, I mean, everybody, we deal with potholes. We're always gonna deal with those issues of infrastructure. Yeah, but we have to look at the long-term game too. So yes, we need to focus on our infrastructure issues, our, our water and sewer, our roads, but then we also need to live and we need to celebrate beauty and we can do both things at the same time. That's a struggle I've had, you know, kind of trying to convince individuals and people why we need to invest in both, but we can and we should. And I, I would argue that investing in these quality of life projects like public art, is going to pay off in the long run and help us maybe fill more of those potholes in the future because we're going to get more money and people in the community who care and pay those taxes.

Right. It's so interesting. And it's— you're highlighting something for me that, again, personally being in this work, like, I am drawn to the kind of work that we're talking about. And I'm absolutely not that drawn to the discussion of infrastructure. It just— it doesn't— yeah, it doesn't do it for me. Thank God there's like engineers and there are people that really geek out about infrastructure and I'm so grateful to them because I think for me, when I think about this whole conversation, the quality of life stuff is what can actually instill a sense of pride of place.

Yes.

You know, and it is a feeling, but it's very, very important and I get it. Like I will openly admit if your roads are completely just decimated and they're total crap, that can lead to a lowering of civic self-esteem too. Like, I understand that. But there's something to be said about just finding unexpected things perhaps and things that create that feeling of something on the positive spectrum of feelings. It could be joy. It could be surprise. It could be delight. It could be belonging. It could be anything, right?

Yeah.

But these intentional acts towards that or like amenitizing a community is the way I think about it too. Those are the things that it really does infuse all of us with a pride.

It is. It is about pride. It's growing our assets. When you think about, you know, when you talk about your community, what do you talk about? You know, I say go to these great places to eat, take a picture in front of these murals, check out our riverfront. I mean, we're talking about the assets, so let's focus on those and make them even better so that we can deal with the unsexy stuff. And so that we have the money to take care of that. But let's be proud. Let's do the things that can make us even more proud.

Yeah, like standing up and actually saying that out loud. For whatever reason— and you're in Illinois, so that's still kind of the Midwest, right? There's this, like, don't raise your hand and talk about yourselves too much. And it's just like, now we have no choice. Like, we have to. We're all in a talent war technically, right, for good talent. I think it's like now more important than ever to just raise your hand and say, here's the cool things we're doing. Here's why you should consider visiting and then moving here and all the stuff. But it can be really hard to overcome that kind of modesty thing that's just baked into—

it can be hard. And what hurts sometimes for me is when I see some of my fellow community members talking about all the things that aren't good. And that's gonna happen, you know, and you're gonna have those social media warriors who talk about their own community in such a negative light. And you're thinking, why, why would you do that? You know, so why are you living here? Tell me what's good. I wanna hear the positives. And I think we need to think about that more often. It's like, what are the things that you are proud of? And let's focus on those things rather than just— so we went through a community branding process and it's been about 8 years now, but it was really focused on, you know, what can we be proud of? What's our history say about us? We're a welcoming community. And I think That was a huge opportunity to just say, wait a second, we have a lot going for us. We always tend to focus on the negative. And this was a way to say—

Or what we don't have.

What we don't have. Yeah.

We a lot of times talk about gaps.

Yes.

And that's— I understand that there's a practicality in that. But I think—

And that's part of my work too. Absolutely. I do needs assessments. But I think part of— I focus on that data. But then the idea is, OK, let's do asset mapping too. Let's balance that out. And say, okay, here's what we need, here's what we have, how can we grow both of those things and not just focus on the deficits, but focus on what we can shore up and make even better, right?

Yeah. I think another key piece of this from a, like a psychological perspective is that people won't invest in something that they don't think has a hopeful future. And so, yeah, like if all we talk about is what we don't have, what we don't do, what we're not great at, all of those things, if that doesn't create a compulsion for anybody to invest in it.

Yes.

Right? Like we invest in and, and tend to the things we actually care about. So just recognizing that the importance of the local voice. I don't know if you've ever on one of our past episodes, and we'll go ahead, we'll make sure that we tag this in the show notes cuz it was, it's so relevant to what we're talking about. His name is Ben Winchester. He's a social or a rural sociologist out of the University of Minnesota. He was on our podcast and the comment that he made that fits so perfectly with this conversation is no one's going to move to your town because they feel bad for you.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

So if all of us locally are saying like, oh, like, you know, Oaks is okay, but we really don't have anything to do. Like, which that's something you hear a lot.

Yes.

Yes. There's nothing to do here. It's super boring. Everybody leaves on the weekends. We have some restaurants, but they're not very good. Like, I, I'm not saying that about my town, but these are the kinds of things people might say. That's what you hear. And then you just want to say, like, what do you think people hearing that are thinking? Like, oh my gosh, they need me to come and open a new restaurant. That isn't what they're thinking. You know what I mean?

They are literally thinking, well, I'm not going there this weekend.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the way we think about— again, I think all of this conversation, it's all tied together, that the beauty of our environment and that decision to create beauty where maybe it otherwise didn't exist, lends itself to pride. And pride lends itself to positive vocalization about our places. And so it really is important. And it's, again, another personal reference is my friend Jeff Sigler. So he has a Facebook page called Revitalize or Die. If you aren't following him, Miggy, I was going to say you would really—

I know his work.

You would love his perspective. It's just this idea that, like, It isn't that complicated. We overcomplicate the discussion of how to make things beautiful. And as much as I think needs assessments and strategic planning is super important for some of what we're talking about, we also, if we wait for those processes to have to be in place before we start, just look at something that bothers you every single day and brainstorm how to make it better. Make it a little bit better and do that today. And then it's an incremental slow progress towards improvement.

That's so funny. One of my favorite quotes, and I don't know if he originated it, but we had a local developer who has passed away and his quote that I always just thought about more and more was, I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized I'm somebody. So I don't think, you know, it was him who said that originally, but I just, he loved that. And I thought, oh, I'm somebody. And, and I think the more and more, especially in our small towns, we are all somebodies. Every single one of us is a somebody. And if we see something that bothers us, then do something. Yeah. And we, you know, even I think that's one of the beauties of small towns is you can do something.

Exactly.

It can be easy. It can be just a matter of saying, hey, this little lot looks bad. I'm gonna mow it. And do it. Empower yourself. Yeah.

Well, it is. And I think the other thing I wanted to come back to, and I actually remembered my second point, so I'm really excited about that. Sometimes we get going and then I don't remember. But the other thing I wanted to ask you about specifically as it relates to art is how have you either, again, through your work or the communities you've worked with, how have you, or have you helped the communities overcome the subjectivity of art in the sense that, you know, what if you put in a mural and half of the people hate it?

You know? Yes.

So like, just talk, talk through that a little bit because I do think that that holds people up.

I do. It does.

I mean, I think it's, it's scary to like, to make a choice and move forward. Mm-hmm. Even if you have a handful of people. So how, how have you overcome that?

You know, we're still, obviously it's, you're always going to work through it. Every single project you're gonna have somebody go, I don't understand. And it's so funny you say this, you're, asked this question because I was just at our city council meeting getting— while we were approving this mural, we have to have the city council approve it. And one of the alderpersons said, I don't think it looks like it's a horizon, is this mural. And he's like, it doesn't look like a horizon in Quincy. You know, I was like, okay, you know, that's a fair point, but it's a horizon. The building that it's going in is called Horizon Soup Kitchen. And it's beautiful. Now, it may not be everybody's cup of tea, but what we, you know, we're blessed to have a large group on this commission and some are art curators from our local museum. And so they say, really, we're not here to judge the art. We're here to say if it's appropriate or not for a public space. So there's that.

Yeah.

But then beyond that, beyond that, it is up to the artist. And the, the space that is allowing the art to be. And you know, that's the ultimate decision there. The way I combat it is let's just do more. If, if this one's not your cup of tea, then let's do 5 more. And one of those hopefully will be, you know, so I think it doesn't have to speak to everybody and it never will.

Like it won't.

That's, that's the thing.

Yeah. It's impossible. And that's actually, like you said, that's actually art. And I think I love that so much to literally the response is, totally appreciate that this isn't what you would love to see. What would you love to see? And where could we put that?

Yeah. And let's raise some money to get that done. Yeah.

Let's do it. And you be a part of it.

And help us.

Exactly. Help us create a space that you want to see, right? And I think the worst thing that people can do, I think communities, anybody in the kinds of jobs that we have, is to let yourselves be held captive by too much public opinion in the sense that, like, isn't it better to move forward than to just— what I mean, and what's the number, Maggie? Like, we have to have 80% consensus. 80% of whom? And you just start—

we would never act.

No, nothing would ever, ever, ever get done.

Never. Yes.

And I would rather see action Yes. And I know, I know that that's kind of risky to say out loud because people just go, well, then what, are there no standards? Of course there's standards. Yeah. But I also think there's so much value in being the kind of place where if people are passionate and they have this thing they really want to see, I think you're that filter of is it appropriate? It's what they want to do appropriate for the space. And again, like, if it's owned by a private party, what are—

if they're okay with it, they're okay with it.

Like, How are you going to stand in the way of that? But it's such an interesting facet of these conversations, I think. And I just wondered how you'd handled that in the past. We clearly are quite aligned in the way we think about it, but I also have such a passion for all different types of art because I know—

me too—

I don't have to personally like it in order for it to have value and meaning.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's our goal as a commission, is not to be the purveyors of like what's what we like or what we don't like. It's to say, okay, is this an appropriate piece for a public space? You know, it's not advertising anything. And then beyond that, we are like, well, if you're executing it with excellence, if you, if you're putting it on there in the right spirit, then we want to support it and we will do what we can to help you get that to happen. And I think that's, it's a lot of what I do in general with my work is progress over perfection.

Yeah.

You can't, you can't, as a perfectionist, as somebody who's trying to get over that constantly.

Forever. I will be forever trying to get over it.

Recovering perfectionists or whatever we call ourselves. It's really hard. And I get stuck with clients sometimes myself and I'm thinking, okay, this could be better. We could do better. We could do more. And I'm like, I have to stop myself and say, no, where we are now and how far we've come. That is more than any— than me stopping the process and the progress and trying to do better. You know, at this point, we need to think about the progress that we've made over having the perfect solution because there is no perfect solution.

No, no, there's not. And I think, like you said, the other big thing is just what we need to always remember, I think anyway, is just the kind of environment that we're creating for people to show up because, again, so I'll just say it and I haven't— I don't say these things out loud all the time, but like my background in org development, you talk about what makes a company a great place to work. Okay. That's, that's the org development kind of lens, right? Where we're talking about culture and we're talking about people and we're talking about human design within companies. So many of the things that research has proven make a company a great place to work translate to what makes a town a great place to live. It's just sometimes a little harder to implement or execute well because you don't have the clear hierarchical structure, right? You don't have a boss. But there are ways through this. And one of the ways we get through that is to really think more about, are we the kind of place where people can show up with their ideas and every idea and every voice is heard and we try— we try to give everybody an opportunity to get involved. Because I think, I think so, art is a piece of that. The other big lens with this is how would people feel? Like, I don't think people, when we're complaining or arguing or like debating public art and there's this, but I think it's ugly and that's awful and that shouldn't be on our walls, that kind of a thing. Let's talk about community clubs or activities or organizations. Okay. There are a bunch. Of recreational and/or club-driven things in my little town. It's amazing. We have so many things. I would say half of them I don't care about at all. Like, they aren't my thing.

Right?

Right? So but then who am I to say that shouldn't be here because it's not for me?

Yeah.

Like, it's the exact same conversation, right? It's just recognizing, like, you get to be a part of this community. And if that matters that much to you that you get to show up and have the things you love, then everybody else should get that opportunity as well.

100%. Yeah. It's not just about what we think personally, right? That's one of the tools I use when I do planning with the community is called compression planning. And it's like old school visual brainstorming process. But what I love the most about it, it levels the playing field. So I think my secret sauce, or what I love so much about the work I get to do, is bringing people with diverse backgrounds and experiences and getting them all in one room and letting them be heard, right? I mean, I think it comes down to listening to people and having them see not only are they heard, but then we reflect back to them. Here's what you told us. Here's what's important to you, which is what you're saying about the different clubs. Not everything is my cup of tea, but man, I love that there's somebody really interested in this environmental thing so much that, you know, and riding their bikes and these cool trails. I think that's great. I'm not gonna go do it every weekend, but it makes my community so much more interesting that somebody is doing this.

Yeah.

So I just, yeah, I want those perspectives because I mean, I feel like I have a good pulse on communities or even just when I'm coming into a new community. I want to hear from the person who's sweeping the streets to the guy who's in charge of, you know, everything. And that way you get those different perspectives of how they use their community, how they interact. And we're all different. Every person's perspective is going to bring you a new lens to look at that community and they're all valuable, right?

Right.

So it's just, it's just a beautiful thing, I think, to be able to look at what other people are doing too and not say, oh, my ideas are better than you because of XYZ. Yep. Because it's just my perspective.

Right. I think what this comes down to for me when I think about this is that, you know, yes, individual tastes and preferences on any spectrum of things is subjective, but objectively everybody deserves to love where they live. And yes, you know, objectively everybody's voice should be a part of the discussion. And that's very, very hard to do. I mean, we're talking about it obviously from a really ideological kind of perspective. It is very, very hard to do. So I would love your opinion on this because what I feel like happens a lot is we do the should, like somebody should do this. And again, then you say, well, are you the somebody?

Right.

But I think without denigrating or somehow criticizing public officials. I don't mean that at all. Like, we need— I need a city council that has their eyes on infrastructure. That's really important because, again, like, it's not— it's not what floats my boat. Like, I will not run for city council only because of that. That work, it wouldn't be the best and highest use of my talent or my skills or abilities, right? And it would suck the life out of me.

And I'm not your zone of genius, right?

Right? I'm just so grateful people do it. But I think instead of saying like, well, they should do that, and it's like city council or the park board, you know, how do you engage in those conversations? Like, what answers do you have to that? Because I think it's so common. We, we basically tell ourselves like, well, our city officials don't do anything, so we can't have nice stuff. And it's like, um, no. I mean, how do you navigate that conversation? Because that's something I, I feel like I, hear a lot.

I do. And that's where I think that more analytical side of me comes out because I do think data is important. Yeah. You know, that's the piece that we don't like necessarily. Sometimes we don't wanna look at that, but I think, you know, when I work with the community, it's like, okay, we assess, we build, and then we act. Those are kind of the 3 buckets I look at. And we need to hear what people have to say. So whether that's a public survey or SWOT or stakeholder interviews, focus groups, whatever tools you might use, you need to have that data. And then the second preliminary data. That's important. So we all have that shared understanding. And then we work together to kind of prioritize. So we think, okay, based on all of this information that we've ourselves shared, let's talk about what is important to our community. Where are the areas that we want to focus on? Because we can't do everything. Now, we don't want to stop somebody from their pet project. We want them to be able to continue to do that. So we're never going to say, no, don't do that. But if we have somebody who says, we have these resources and we need to support something, what should it be? We want to be able to point to, hey, based on what our community said, based on the data, here's an area that we can really focus on and we think will make a huge impact. So that's where we want to get into that planning. That's why I do think planning is important. And you've seen it really pay off in communities. And then that act. Again, I never want to go into a community and say, well, stop doing what you're doing. No. We want you to keep do— I mean, we have to throw everything at some points. But then when we get into the planning stage and we have those focus groups, then we can act in more intentional ways. And hopefully make some real thing, remove some barriers and make some real change on some of these bigger issues. So we want all these things to happen in concert. So I don't know if I answered your question or what the question was anymore, but I think those are the things that I think are so important is really having a base, getting the engagement, authentic engagement, not just the, you know, oh, thanks, we heard from you. Now we, you know, be quiet. We want people to be involved the whole time. We want them buying into this. So that they're the ones who are implementing it for the rest of their lives, the rest of their time in the community.

Right. So when you get a phone call or a community engages with you, generally speaking, who is it that makes that first connection? Like, or is it completely across the board? I'm just asking.

It's across the board.

Yeah. I'm fascinated.

It's across the board. So yeah. So, you know, working in my own communities, it's a little different because I know all the players. I've been in economic development, so I work with the city planning department really closely. When I work in other communities, it's been the economic development person. I've worked through the United Way, you know, and they've said, hey, we have this money and we, uh, a grant and we want to do a community needs assessment and then we want to do a community plan. Or I'll work with a large foundation. Some of these small communities have great resources as far as communities and companies that want to support their community. So I work with foundations and help them through community surveys and things like that. So it really runs the gamut as far as who I'm talking to and who engages me in the beginning. And then we just try to get a broad scope of community members to be involved. So I really— I love a good steering committee. And I love getting— sometimes people would say not manageable amounts of people involved because I think that's where the magic is, is getting people engaged at the beginning so that they are ready to go and they see how their ideas are part of a plan and they want to be a part of that action.

Right. So do you feel like— let me ask you this. What do you feel like has been one of the most successful overall implementations? You don't have to name the community or anything, but when you think about that, because I'm sure you have one that you were just like, man, it was fun. It was, you know, you got this big swath of people. What was it about that? That you felt made it so successful, if that's something you can even narrow down. I get—

Yeah, no, and I can't narrow it down because there's a lot of different examples, I think, where I'm so proud of action they've taken. But I'll just use the example of my own community. So I was part of a strategic plan. We called it the Quincy Next Strategic Plan. And we had— actually, I wasn't the main consultant here. I was just a part of a bigger team. And when we brought this team in, We had, I think, probably 200 people on different steering areas, huge amount of people involved.

That's incredible.

That's incredible. It was a lot of people, but I think the success in that was we, I think, adopted this plan in 2018. And as a result of this plan, we've seen so much movement. Right now we have, uh, riverfront projects going on. We have a transportation plan that came out of it. We're looking at different projects there as far as we have a new bridge coming and that came from the strategic plan we have in our main street, in our downtown area, we have 2 blocks that are being revitalized right now. And it really came from focusing in and we said, you know, we need to focus in on this area that's already got a lot of private investment and we need to come back with public infrastructure. So we are redoing the street in a special way, something to make it a little bit different, more trees, more bike areas. We're going to have brick pavers. It's more lighting, you know, just something a little bit more because The strategic plan led us to say, you know, we need to focus in on our downtown and making it more livable. And this was an area where we had private investment and it was a beautiful public-private partnership because then we ended up getting, you know, a public grant from the state. And then we were able to say, hey, all these people have already invested their personal dollars.

Yeah.

And let's back it up with some public dollars. So it was exactly what you want to see happen. So I think that was one of the beautiful things that's happening right now.

So to that point, Maggie, I mean, and thank you for that. I just think that again, I think about the range of small town folks listening to this and I always think like, okay, can we give them something tangible with starting? So does that feel accurate potentially that a really great way to start is actually trying to get some grassroots for, you know, if, if it's, I don't know if it's like a random, like a little pocket park or a mural or a whatever. Because I do, I mean, I've been in that position where it seems much more likely that you're going to get some support, whether it's a full match or a partial match, if they're matching private dollars in first.

Absolutely. Your elected officials love to see that, hey, we can show you that $100,000, $1 million, whatever the investment level is, these private developers are not even developers. These individuals who decided Hey, I really like craft beer. I wanna open a microbrewery. This is what happened at our downtown. And it's become a gathering space. Oh, you know, this is a little lingerie shop that's been around for 20 years. We've had 2 women buy the shop and revitalized it. And it's a place where people come from all over to try on bras. You know, it's just such a random thing. But so, and that's across the street from another couple of places. Clothing stores, you know, it's like all of these places decided, well, things are happening on this street. Let's focus in on here. And here's this little coffee shop. And then we could say, listen, we had this group of people and my job was to kind of try to wrangle all those entrepreneurs, which is kind of a big job sometimes because they're very, they're entrepreneurs for a reason, right? They don't let anybody tell them what to do.

Yep.

Sure. But I got the opportunity to work with them at all and communicate with them and say, okay, Let's kind of put some dollar amounts to how much you've all invested, and then let's go to our city and say, look at how much we've done on our personal dollars or on our own risk, and can you come and help us apply for the state grant? And then let's do a little bit more so that we are unique because that's what we wanna be. And it's also, you know, it is two blocks, but it's the whole downtown. It's the whole community that benefits from that. And that's one of the things that we have to keep telling people is, yes, this investment is happening on 2 blocks in our downtown, but this entire community is going to benefit from that whether you go there or not. But there's a lot more people going there than 10 years ago. I, I guarantee it.

Right. And that is, that's another thing I like you just alluded to is tricky, that conversation of where the investment's going. Mm-hmm. Because I know even locally, I feel for our non-Main Street businesses sometimes, because it does often feel like Main Street, Main Street, Main Street, Main Street. It's all— and again, there's, you know, national initiatives, and a lot of times states have initiatives. But like you said, it's also just recognizing that if any part of our community gets better, everything gets better. I mean, that's how I feel about humans. When individual people get a little bit better, everything gets better because they touch multiple things.

Mm-hmm.

You know, like a human skill that gets better doesn't ever just stay tight with the person.

Yeah.

It's a spillover effect, right? It's a beautiful ripple effect. And I, again, I always argue for our small towns, like the ripple's deeper and faster because I 100% agree there's just less of us. And so that investment in human capital is so important.

It is. And you can see it happen. I'm part of a, um, actually this just happened yesterday. We have a, what's called a CEO program, which is Creating Entrepreneurial Opportunities. It's for high school students.

Yes.

So we started this about 5 years ago.

I'm familiar with, I'm familiar with the curriculum. Yeah, it's great.

Oh, we love it so much. And they had their trade show yesterday. We had 17 seniors in high school showing off their businesses. And what I love so much about the program is that not only shows that, you know, allows them to learn about starting a business, which is huge. It's great. But it shows them what is already available in our community.

Right.

And I don't know, I mean, you remember when I started out in economic development, how exciting it was to see, like, I didn't realize this was happening here. I learned so much. And this gives these kids an opportunity to say, oh, I can tour this. I didn't realize I drive by this every day. I didn't realize that they were making these parts that are used all over the world or whatever it might be. And so that ripple effect, again, these kids, we don't know what's gonna happen. You know, they're gonna go off to school. Some may stay, some may go.

Mm-hmm.

But what I do know is now they have this deeper connection with our community. Yep. So whether that's they stay and they open a business or they become one of the best employees in one of the businesses that we already have here, or they go away and they talk about their great experience in Quincy, we are growing these champions of our community. And so it's just a, It's just a special thing, I think. Like you said, that ripple effect, you just— if we can plant those seeds in more and more people and share the why it's so important to be positive and really focus on some of those assets, oh, man, it's powerful.

It is. And I think it is what every community needs right now is just these reminders that we don't have to make it It's complicated and it's hard sometimes. There is no doubt about that. I think the day that you and I talked, I was having a particularly crappy day.

Yeah.

I was like, oh, Maggie, the public work, it's so gross. And it is sometimes. It is so hard sometimes. But I think just reminding ourselves, one of my favorite things to remind humans of is that if you're in a community and everybody is, right? Like, no matter what, you're in some community somewhere. And you want something for that community, the community wants it because you're a part of it. And so it's okay to pursue the things that would bring more love of place for you.

Yeah.

Now what we don't get to do is run around telling everybody else that they should do the things we wanna see. That's the rub, right?

Like that's where you have to bring in the public consensus and those thoughts.

Yeah, exactly.

That's, that's where you have to say, okay, I'm not the only one here who matters. But yes.

Exactly. Exactly. And especially if you're— what you're doing is saying, I want this thing, city council, you do it, park board, you do it. That it— that won't work. It doesn't work because actually nobody likes to be told what to do. Just generally, it's kind of a fundamental thing, right? And so it's more about recognizing, A, that if you wanna see it, it might be something worth pursuing. I always ask the question then, well, what's your role in creating it?

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, what do you wanna contribute besides the idea? Cuz ideas really are important.

They are. They are.

You know, being able to think creatively again, that's what I think art can do. It just unlocks a different way of thinking for people. But then when it comes to actually putting pencil to paper and making something happen, it, you know, it requires extra people. A lot of times those public officials will need to be a part of the conversation.

And how can we empower people too beyond the public? You know, I mean, the public officials are only one piece of a very big pie that we need to— so who are the people that have not felt empowered and how can we not only hear their ideas but help them execute them too? It's so important.

Yeah. You are doing such important work, Maggie, and I will be sure to drop all the links to how people can connect with you because people just I really appreciate your— you have a very holistic lens, I think, at least in visiting with you. We don't know each other very well, but all the conversations that we've had thus far, I'm just like, she, she really— you get that there's— that the humans really matter in all of this.

Yes.

Like, it isn't just like a project for the sake of a project. It's, it's what does it give us? How does it make us feel? How does it make us better? And then I think too, like we were just discussing, This idea that people, when people get incrementally better, people can transform and learn entire new ways of thinking by engaging in a process like what you're talking about.

Mm-hmm.

Especially for people that have never done something like that before.

Yes.

It is unbelievable how much people's hearts and minds can crack open a little bit. Mm-hmm. And they're suddenly thinking in ways that they previously wouldn't have.

And I think that's why I come to that lens because I've been there and I've been in the trenches and I've been a part of things. And then I realized, oh, I was that person, you know, who didn't know what the next step was. But then I realized I could be a part of it and then I realized I could lead it and then I realized I could help other people do this, you know? So absolutely. Yeah.

So I guess that's the other takeaway, right? Like, if you care about your community, like most of us do, at least in part, go get involved in something, you know, roll up your sleeves and dig in and don't be afraid of not knowing what to do because that's part of it. You shouldn't know what to do if you've never done it before. Like, right? Don't confuse like sucking at something with being new at something. They're not the same thing, right? Like, yes, you shouldn't be, you know, an expert in strategic planning if you've never been a part of a process.

Exactly.

But just to remind people too, and you said it earlier, you know, bringing people in with really diverse backgrounds, like every single thing that every single one of us has experienced can lend itself to these conversations. It isn't just what we do for work. Like oftentimes I kind of think that's like the least interesting thing about us sometimes, right?

Sure.

Everything else that we are. And yeah, to engage in a process where you get to bring all of that to the table, it's actually just truly special.

It's a gift. Yeah. And I'm privileged to be a part of whatever I get to be a part of, for sure.

Well, and we're privileged to get to all have learned from you today. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. And I, again, as I meet new people around the country, I'm just like, okay, so Quincy, Illinois, that's on the list now.

Come and see us.

I know I would love to. Thank you so much, Maggie.

Thank you.