141. Supporting Rural Mental Health with Jordyn Koski

Our guest on today's episode is Jordan Koski. She is the founder of It's a Part of Therapeutic Services, and she is a mental health practitioner. Her office specializes not just in mental health but things like burnout, compassion fatigue, and her team of clinicians offers a lot of their services via telehealth. And that's one of the things that we talk about in this episode is how we can all maybe open our minds a little bit more to the idea of embracing telehealth as a means to get some support versus always just resigning ourselves to the fact that if we're in a rural place, we are in a desert of services for mental health. We talk a bit more broadly about this as a topic as well. We've touched on this a number of times on the podcast, and for me, and my heart and our communities, I will continue to talk about this. It's such a, a key piece of life. Mental health is simply health. And this conversation with Jordyn offers a few great reminders and she sheds some new light on these things in a way that we hadn't discussed before. So enjoy this topic with our new friend Jordyn. Jordyn, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, it's exciting to meet another human in this particular field of mental health, especially someone who's focusing on rural places. So I'll start by thanking you for the work that you're doing and really truly thanking you for being willing to come and share what you're doing.

So I appreciate being here and I'm excited.

Your bio, I mean, people have heard kind of generally who you are. They can read about you in the show notes. But let's just talk about what was kind of the catalyst like for you getting into this work? What drew you to it? What pulled you into it? What's the origin story of you in this particular work?

Yeah, no, I have some personal family experiences working with different systems, whether it is social services or different mental health related situations. And so that kind of is where it's started of my interest back in high school is that's something that I said I wanted to do from day one. And so, you know, I'm the type of person is if I have that passion, like, I'm guns blazing, full force ahead. And so yeah, I started there and then I gradually did some experience working with individuals with developmental disabilities in community-based group home settings. So that was amazing experience. I encourage anyone who is wanting to join the helping profession is that is an amazing starting point for people to start. It's called direct support professionals. And I always go back to even today, the work they did back then is invaluable and it's truly starting at the bottom and working your way up. And so that's kind of where I started. Then I went to work on an inpatient psychiatry unit and I was like, oh, well, maybe I like the clinical side of things.

Can I ask a quick question in this story? At this point, is your primarily your schooling social work or what's— that was your background at this time? Were you— so you didn't need any other type of credentialing or background or education to work? You said inpatient, right? Inpatient psychiatry?

Inpatient. Yep. Okay. Yeah. At that point I just had my bachelor's in social work. In social work. Okay. And so I was doing some discharge planning on the inpatient psychiatry unit. Which again, you know, was kind of the start for mental health services for me and really kind of that growing interest, I guess.

When did you feel like you knew?

I would say not that far into it, to be honest.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it was, I would say within a couple months of working on the inpatient psychiatry unit, I would say after that honeymoon phase, as they all say, in that new job situation. And so I just knew from then that I did want to work more with mental health than with developmental disabilities. Granted, I love working with individuals with developmental disabilities still to this day, I do. But that strong passion for mental health really started around that time. And then from there, all my other experience has just been, you know, community-based mental health. And then eventually going into private practice.

Yeah. So again, and I was telling you this, that, you know, I always think about the people that listen to the show. A lot of times they are people that are living in rural places. A lot of times they're the dreamers and the doers and the, you know, they may not be the official titled people, which I just, you know, we talk about all the time. We just don't really care about titles here. Like that's not what makes anybody more or less inclined to do great stuff in a small community, right? It's a way of being. And the reason, by the way, so again, I think you and I have talked about this a bit. This hasn't been something that's been officially really declared ever on this show, but locally here in our, in our community, I was a part of, and Growing Small Towns was a part of, the formation of a mental health coalition. It was through a grant through our, our county health district, and that was amazing. It pulled together a wide variety of people, and we were really focusing on overall mental health community awareness related to mental health suicide. Awareness, community-based intervention, like what suicidal ideation even is and how do we look out for one another. And so the reason I'm so passionate about it, and when I, when you reached out to me and you're right in Horace, which is a small, we'll call it maybe a suburb of Fargo, a suburb of West Fargo. And the fact that you're really passionate about bringing not only the awareness but actual strategies and support, real services to rural places. I am not a mental health practitioner. But I'm a human that cares a lot about other humans. And I think maybe even more importantly, I really truly believe that mental health is simply health. And at Growing Small Towns, we care about the growth and the development of people, right? And so in my mind, when the grant went away for the health district, I raised my hand and I was like, we, I'd like to bring this under our umbrella. And all I mean by that is like still that somebody, and it's us in this community, that we would continue to move this conversation forward because, you know, there's a lot of things that we need in community, right? We need sense of belonging, we need good jobs, and we need food, and we need shelter, and we need all these things. None of that actually matters if mentally and emotionally we're really unwell. And so I kind of just wanted to say that because anybody listening to this, I want everybody to remember that what goes on between our ears and what goes on in our hearts That's work. Those are skills that I believe with time and attention and some commitment to it, we can actually grow and develop those skills. It's a little bit different. And maybe, and maybe Jordan, you'd have a perspective on this that you could share, kind of the difference between that, which I'm talking about from a perspective of skill development, like resilience, right? And having a positive mental outlook, like those things are skills. And then there's diagnosable mental health, you know, things that are actually diagnoses that come along with mental health. What do you think about those things? What does that have to do with rural community? I kind of just wanted people to know that the reason I talk about it all the time is I actually think it's a critical part of being human. And if we're going to thrive as communities, we need to care about it.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And so, you know, I think there's specifically, I would say, in the rural communities of North Dakota, the Midwest, in general, it is still significantly pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality and the stigma around mental health and mental health being viewed as being weak, right? And so I definitely see that significantly, specifically in small towns because everyone knows everyone. You know, you'll have that person down the road who will kind of gossip. All of a sudden the whole town knows stuff. And I think there's definitely also that stigma with that too, is just like not wanting people to know about things. And just because one seeks out mental health services, right, is that is another factor, as you talk about here, is that resiliency. I'm not saying that seeking mental health services has to be long-term, right? But even just building you up so then you can reach that next stage in your goals, even I see it more as sometimes like a catapult to like get you to that next stage sometimes.

So it's interesting, couple things I'm thinking of. The other big facet I think that can challenge us in small communities is this worry about offending each other. I'm using air quotes here. You can see them, right? I tell the audience there's air quotes around this, like getting too up in people's business. We spent a lot of time talking about that with the couple of practitioners that we had come to our community because at the end of the day, there are sometimes, not always, but sometimes there are signs. There are things that we, we can and really should watch for, for the people that are closest to us, like withdrawing from social interactions, perhaps like grooming. We've talked, we know some of these things that we talked about, they start to like take a, they backslide a bit in a way that feels noticeable. Sometimes it's just there can be like a vacancy or like a deadness in people's eyes. Like sometimes you can see it. And so it's mostly about helping everybody realize that offending people is not the worst thing that you can do. Yeah, in this situation.

Yeah, because, you know, sometimes whether it's the Midwest or in general, right, is when things are kept secret for too long, we all become complacent in that type of environment. Whereas when we start talking about things, you know, we really open up these doors for conversations and for change. And one of my favorite phrases is in order to get over conflict, you have to experience it. Right.

And so you have to actually feel it.

Yeah.

And go through it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think one of the big takeaways when we talked specifically about kind of suicidal ideation and the fear of just asking, like, and actually that one of the practitioners said, if you actually believe that somebody might be at risk of taking their life, you have to ask that question. It's that question. It's not just, are you okay? You know, not even are you going to hurt yourself, but are you thinking about taking your life? And again, like, all of us, full body, head to toe, cringe just at the idea of saying that to someone. But at the end of it, the practitioner just said, you would rather have an offended friend than a dead one.

Yeah.

You know, and again, it's some of it is also allowing or encouraging people maybe and giving people that permission, like across the board, to follow that gut instinct. You know, if you're feeling like something's off, it's okay just to say something.

Yeah.

That's part of what small communities in particular, we should technically be better at this. And I think in some respects it gets harder because that fear of offending or the fear of looking not okay if you're the person struggling, all of those things get in the way of us either reaching out or being the person to reach out, at reaching out for help or being the person to offer it.

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, like your statement there about even just asking the question, are you having suicidal ideations? Are you having thoughts that you'd be better off not living anymore? You know, it's so interesting when I ask that, because I mean, I ask every client that, I kind of get like this look of almost puzzle, looking puzzled on their face. But then when I start talking about it, they're like, oh, maybe I have felt that way. I just haven't thought of it. Or like, no one's ever asked, right?

There is a care in that directness. And that's part of what we tried to help everybody again. And these are small ways that we try to do this to help people understand, like, okay, so we've talked about this a bit. For me, I'm in active therapy. I do it because the work that I do is mentally and emotionally really taxing on me. I'm a very public-facing person and people are mean. I'll be honest. People can be really, really hard on people doing things.

Absolutely.

I'll just say it. Like, you might even own a business and people are just tricky. People are just hard. And so I anticipate that I will pursue active therapy for myself. And again, it's not like in it every single day. I'm not even in it every single week right now. My rhythm's about every other week. I have happened to have a lot of stressful things kind of happening in my life, and so I ramp up my sessions when that's the case. But for me, it's a maintenance thing, as important to me as going to the gym for my body. Like, I actually view it that way. And so when you said it can be helpful to reaching goals, the reason that's so important for people to understand, I think, and again, this is coming from a person that I do not have any diagnosable— I haven't been diagnosed yet, Jordan. I mean, I sometimes think I might be a little bit OCD, a little bit ADHD. Like, I got some stuff. I got some stuff Sprinkles.

It's Sprinkle.

I'm Sprinkle for sure. But when you chase big things down, you get to a point where you're all of a sudden everything you encounter is new because you've never seen those things before. And sometimes just getting reframes or different perspectives or ways of looking at a scenario, because we're just as humans, we see it from our one perspective, and that's always the case, right? I value my therapist so much for the ability to help me especially reframe difficult conversations or situations that are dealing with another human. And I am really practiced in working on this stuff. And so I'm saying that as a person that I'm pretty healthy overall. Like, I've done a lot of work. I've worked really hard on it. And I still have situations where I want to, like, almost no kidding, like, murder somebody. Then, or sometimes I feel like I'm not doing enough. No, it starts to, like, chip away at my worth. And a good therapy session just can help me reframe it, sometimes take the catastrophizing out of it. There's so many things that I get out of it, but I just want people to know that it's like, that's how I view it. Yeah.

And I don't know your experience, right? But I have heard from clients is sometimes even that perspective outside of immediate family. Oh, for sure. You know, whether it's your husband, your family, whatever that may be, It's so interesting when it comes from a professional, it takes that emotion out of it almost.

Totally. Well, because our families, if they have an actual, like, horse in the race, yeah, you know, the public perception stuff is always going to be tricky for my husband to walk me through or somehow help me with because he's tied to the public perception of me. Yeah, he's married to me. He could never give me actually unbiased reframes. It's not fair for me even to expect him to be able to do that. So I do think that's really important. And I think for business owners having strong mental stamina and good emotional kind of regulation, I think those are just, I think they're super important things to, to pursue.

Yeah. And that's actually something through my practice that I've tried honing in on a little bit more is whether it's medical professionals, first responders, business owners themselves. Just because I feel like it's just not advertised that that's a need as much as, you know, maybe like the posters or movies that you see out there of what individuals look like when they seek mental health services.

I totally agree. And that's why, if nothing else, like, I hope by talking about it, we can kind of normalize it as a really standard and typical thing for people to access. Versus, like you said, it being like you have to be in crisis for you to need help. That's not the case. I'm not in crisis, but I definitely feel more balanced, and I feel healthier mentally and emotionally. Because these things too, by the way, I should make sure people understand that it's not like therapy just helps with situational things. They then become a skill that you can access next time you have a similar situation.

Right.

That's why I believe there's skill and growth baked into the, the accessing of therapy. And so the other thing too, let's talk about real quick, because you— it's about telehealth. Let's just talk about that as a general thing, because I will say fully, I have met my therapist once in person. All of my therapy sessions, I've been seeing the same therapist for about 2 years, they're all over Zoom. It's just like this, like you and I are talking right now. And I wouldn't have needed to meet her in person first. I wouldn't have, I don't think. So, but I think there's a lot of hesitation about it. I mean, what do you think about that? What are you seeing? What are people telling you? Like, what are you hearing?

Yeah. Yeah. So as far as telehealth, just so everyone is aware of what that means is telehealth, you know, during COVID it was present before COVID There's lots of discrepancies about that, but it was an option before. It's just insurances maybe didn't cover it as much as what they're covering now.

Well, there are probably also, sorry to interrupt, but probably certain practitioners that were willing to do it. And others that absolutely weren't, I'm guessing. Yeah, kind of before the world forced it on everybody.

Yeah. And, you know, not even necessarily like practitioners, I would say like the society's view on telehealth in general, because before, right, is like everyone was stuck in kind of like the traditional ways. So unfortunately, this is another example of the you have to experience conflict to change and get over it. And this is one of those things, this COVID was not pleasant for many. And one thing that I would say that did come out of it is this change in perspective on telehealth services because it increases access. And so what telehealth is, it is communication with a therapist or a provider, either via phone or via Zoom. Granted, many providers out there primarily will not do phone because insurance will not reimburse for that. There may be a couple out there, but it's very rare that that happens. So telehealth itself, self, is via a video exchange. So you're seeing them, your professional, via live stream here. And so it could be via Zoom. There's different electronic health records out there that also have different telehealth options. So for me, through my practice, I use what's called SimplePractice Telehealth. And so all telehealth services are confidential. So like, let's say you hopped onto a session and I don't know if you experienced this with your therapist, but she may have asked you of like, oh, where are you located? Because that's important. You have to, the medical professional has to know or therapist has to know your specific location because that has to be included in documentation. And so they'll also ask more than likely is like, are you in a secure room? Because everything is confidential. Your confidentiality is very important. And so I get it. You can consent to having other people in the room. But as we'll kind of talk about a little bit further is when there are other people in the room, I would say the authentic conversations and the challenging significantly reduces. So it does impact the therapeutic process. And so I'm kind of a stickler on that one is I do ask for people to go to a private room.

Yeah. Say more about that. Like what situations are you seeing where there are other people present in a room? Is it like they bring a family member or somebody into the space with them?

You know, it's so interesting because increasing access via telehealth I have had clients who have gone into a gas station and I'm like, oh, nope, we gotta stop here. Nope, we can't do this. Or yeah, it could be their kid or it could be a significant other, like their family is visiting from out of town. And so it just depends. I've seen the full spectrum of different interruptions. And so, but yeah, and I get it, right? Like I'm mom myself and I, know how kids and family members can be because maybe they don't maybe realize that you're on a meeting or whatever it may be.

Right. Right. So for our listeners, and now this is maybe specifically because I think it's fairly regularly quoted or stated that our rural community is in a resources desert. Right. That's kind of how we refer to our services desert. And I think when we had our mental health coalition meetings and we would talk about some of the really difficult challenges that were happening that were more acute or crisis-related, and where there is not anybody like in the state of North Dakota that had a bed available. Like, that has happened. That's actually happened where this person needed to be transported somewhere for their own safety and there wasn't anywhere for them to go. So what's hard about this sometimes is that it's really easy to feel defeated. It's sometimes like it can get really easy to just say, oh God, like nothing we do locally is gonna matter. And so we have wrestled with that internally. I think I shared with you that we actually had a local person, we've had several suicides in our community and one of them happened like the day before our coalition meeting and all we did was just sit around and cry 'cause it's those just shocking things of like, that's the guilt and it's how did we miss it and how did nobody see it and All of those things. So I never ever want to imply that any of these things are simple because they're not. They're very complicated. And the system in which we're operating is massively complicated. And yet I do always want to say, what are some simple, small things that we could do? And I just think even connecting with a practitioner like you, you're right here in North Dakota. And so how far out can people that might be listening to this who can access you? Like, you're licensed in what states, or how does that work for people? Maybe we'll— I'll ask it that way.

Yeah, and so it all depends on your specific licensure. So I have my license, uh, clinical social work degree in the state of North Dakota, but also I am licensed in Minnesota. And so what I mean by other licensures is whether it's a counselor, psychologist, you know, there's different roles with that, there's different compacts. So I will just speak with regards a licensed clinical social worker. And so for me, I can see individuals who are physically located in the state of North Dakota or Minnesota. And so what I mean by that is I have had clients who maybe live on border states. So let's say they live in Montana or they live in South Dakota. You know, I think I had one person who lived in Wisconsin. And so we just talk about like, okay, for session you're going to have to drive over the bridge and you're going to have to be physically located in the state of Minnesota or North Dakota. And so that is an option. That's interesting.

I would never have guessed that that's how that actually works.

Yes. Yeah. And for a while I wasn't licensed in Minnesota for various reasons, but with that is I would have clients who I— my office is out of Fargo, and so I would have clients who lived in Moorhead and who would want to do telehealth, and I would say, okay, yeah, I gotta get in your car and you have to be physically located in North Dakota for me to provide the service. And I would have clients who would do it. Sure.

Oh, you know, yeah, even as I'm sitting here listening to this, like, I— Oaks is almost on the border of South Dakota. We're only a handful of miles from the border. And so it just makes me think all those people, like Aberdeen, South Dakota is only 70 miles to the south of us. I could see people taking that option. And again, I think it's important for people just to understand that there are options. We're talking kind of differently about accessing therapy in a therapeutic manner versus in an acute manner, right? Those are different things.

Yeah.

But I just think to me, the whole goal is how do we support people so that these things don't necessarily get to an acute or crisis point?

Absolutely.

Like, what are some of the things— what's the infrastructure that could be put into place? And some of it is even some of the things we talked about earlier, just people looking, really truly looking out for one another. If something feels off, saying something, you know, like, we can't do that for every person in our community, but you can do it for your 10 closest friends. Who are the people that you feel responsible for and to? Start there, you know. And I, like I said, sometimes I hate getting into these discussions because I worry that I sound like a like a Pollyanna about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm trying to minimize the difficulty of these things, but I guess I just prefer to try to operate from some sort of place of hope and focus on what we can control and think about what we can do.

Absolutely. And that is one thing, what can we do is we can start viewing mental health services as a proactive versus a reactive type service as well. That is one aspect I would say is starting to think about the proactive needs of mental health and really prioritizing that. But also on the other end of things is you don't know what you don't know, right? And so I think advocacy is a huge piece of that. And, you know, letting people know as far as there are so many private practice providers in the state of North Dakota. Minnesota, South Dakota, you know, every single state there are. Granted, um, you know, the other pieces— availability, right? Because sometimes they may be full, but there are so many practices that are popping up every single day that do have openings. You know, for example, I have a clinician and she has openings right now, and you know, that's why I kind of reached out too, is because just increasing the knowledge of the access to telehealth services for mental health.

I was just gonna say the other facet too that I really wanna encourage people to understand as a normal part of this process is matching with the therapist. I think I've, I've worked with at least 3, yeah, 3 therapists before I found my current one. And then there again, it's like that Midwest niceness, which isn't actually all that helpful. In a lot of ways it kicks in and we don't want to offend and we don't want to upset anybody. Similar to like a hairdresser, right? We don't want to leave our hairdresser and you feel like you don't want to leave your therapist. Your therapist wants a good match for you. And so it's actually, I think, kind of expected that you may not link up or sync up beautifully with the first person you try. And I get that that can add to the frustration of the whole process. But I do think it's normal. I don't know if you have thoughts or comments on that, but I experienced it myself and literally I was like, oh, but now what do I do? I've been with this person and then it's just like, wait a minute, this is my health. And yeah, pretty sure that means that I'm supposed to move on and find the right fit.

Yeah. No. And that is such a big piece too for people is finding that right match. And if anyone out there has tried therapy and they're like, No, it just was not for me. That person, like, I just, it was uncomfortable, whatever. I will assure you that there is a person out there for you.

I agree.

There is, you know, like I have so many clients who will say, you know, I have seen 5, 10, some, I've had one client who has seen over 15 therapists until they found the fit for them. When I meet with a new client, that is actually one of the first conversations I have with them is like, hey, I know that it takes time to find that right fit. And I know I'm not the right fit for every single person out there, but we need to have that honest conversation now because I don't want to have to like start really digging into your history if you don't feel comfortable now, because people will know, you know, I have some clients who will say like, I knew as soon as I walked in the door, or as soon as you started talking or whatever it may be is you can just get this vibe or, you know, this feeling from people. And so it is pretty immediate, which is why I have that conversation right away. And I also open up the doors for clients of like, hey, if you ever feel like this isn't working for you, can you let me know? I'm gonna ask you, like, because you can tell when maybe they aren't— clients aren't as committed or aren't reaching the goals or things like that. And so like, hey, can you tell me like what is working, what's not working, how 'cause that's what therapy's about. It's not for me, it's for you. You know? So I always encourage that too, is if you feel like it's not a good match, is maybe even just having that conversation and seeing if that therapist is willing to like adjust what they're doing.

Well, I think on that note, it's actually really helpful to really pay attention to what you appreciate or don't appreciate because then, then if you do decide you have to move on, you can have that conversation or that can be part of your vetting. 'Cause I think everybody should kind of develop like a, what— again, when you're just starting, you don't know what you don't know, so you're not sure what it's going to be like. But I think if something makes you feel off— and again, there's a difference between feeling off and feeling challenged. A good therapist will challenge us. And the great thing is, like, with my therapist, when she says something that I actually disagree with or I don't want to listen to it or I don't want to do it, I'll say that to her. And most of the time, you know, that's something I need to work on. I mean, that's why it's hitting me the way that it does. But there's an openness of that where I don't I really truly don't hold back. And so that's really valuable to me. Right. My previous therapist, there were a few things where it was like an immediate feeling inside, like, oh, this just doesn't feel right. And you'll know that, but you won't know it if you never go. Absolutely. I think a lot of us just dismiss it out of hand, maybe because we think we know what it is or because it only looks, walks, and talks a certain way, like on video and on social media and on all media, like movies. Therapy is— can be actually really personalized to you.

Yeah, well, it's funny that you bring that up because actually I just got business headshots done a couple, maybe 2 months ago now. Wow, okay, that went fast. But I did this picture where I was laying on the couch and, you know, with my hand behind my head. And the reason why I did that though is because I can't even tell you how many times people have asked me, like, is therapy really like what's in the movies? Like, do people lay on your couch? And I joke around saying, like, I'm the one who lays on the couch.

You're like, no, I lay on the couch and I just kick my feet up and you tell me all the things.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, half the time I do kick my feet up, but so I did it more as, like, joking side of things. But, you know, still some of that lack of awareness of what it actually is and what we talk about. And I can tell you, so many of my clients will come in, I almost want to cancel because I feel like nothing bad is going on. Like, I have nothing I want to talk about.

I know.

Okay.

Yeah. It's not just here for bad things. I think that's it too. Like, the reason I shared that so much of what I bring to my therapist happens to just be interpersonal things that didn't go the way I wanted them to. I mean, legitimately, that sounds But like, again, I find myself in front of boards a lot. I find myself in a position to advocate or persuade or influence, and that takes a tremendous amount of work, a lot of like in-the-moment conflict resolution, a lot of good emotional intelligence, right? You have to read the room, you have to understand what you're bringing to the set, like all these factors. And so I need somebody outside of myself to help me kind of debrief those conversations or talk about— I have learned some super valuable things in therapy that I've used then going forward. I learned them as part of a debrief of a specific challenging conversation or situation, but then they literally become nuggets that I grab going forward. That's learning, friends. Like, that's skill, that's skill development. That's why I think it's so dang important. It's like, I think sometimes like a positive outlook or resilience, like having like a good set of sense of resiliency. I think people think you either like have it or you don't. That's not true. That's just not true. We're all wired with innate gifts, right? I get that. And they don't all look the same. Our brains are malleable and we can actually, we can teach ourselves new ways of thinking and new ways of being. But we often don't come to that just locked inside of our own brains. You can get information from lots of sources, Jordan. I get this, like you can read and you can take classes and you can even talk to other people. There's something really valuable about talking with somebody that has studied and has a background in the way our brains work.

Absolutely. No. And you know, with that is we all have resilience. It's just we have learned that resilience through different lenses. Right. And I am, I have always been the type of person that I will always be growing and learning. There's a new training out there. I'm jumping on it. I'm going to go do that because we don't learn. We don't grow by just sitting in our comfort zone.

Right.

It's hard for change to happen, but when we do open up ourselves and like you said earlier, is like being vulnerable and allowing yourself to really challenge yourself. You know, the therapist isn't going to tell you what you need to do. I mean, they shouldn't anyways, but like, you know, it's more so challenging, right?

It's like different ways of looking at something. Yeah. And one of the things my therapist will say, she's like, well, that's one way of looking at it. I'll share, I'll share like, this is what happened and this is what he did and this is what she did. You know, like, literally, if it's very hot, play by play, I'm very certain about how I saw it. And then she'll be like, okay, Rebecca, she's like, That is absolutely one way to look at it. She said, here's a different lens. Again, I get it. That could come from anybody, but she has an ability to access all of her experience. She's been doing therapy for many, many years, and I just think there's so much value in that. And I will— I know that I will always be a person that pursues it because I do. I want to grow and I want to change and I want to get better. And I know that I'm going to constantly be tested. Against that comfort zone will constantly be tested. And that means I will constantly be challenged. And that's awesome. And it's hard work, and sometimes it's very frustrating, and sometimes it's tiring, and sometimes it's exhausting, and sometimes it hurts. It even hurts sometimes. But that's all part of the human experience, I guess.

Absolutely. Yeah. I was going to say, more than likely your therapist has Kleenexes, but being that you do telehealth, you probably have to supply your own Kleenexes. Supply my Yeah, it is hard and that's okay.

But yeah, well, and in fact, I will just publicly say this on this episode. Early on when I— when we built our facility, we've got two huddle rooms. They're these small little rooms that you can close the door and they're very, very small, but they basically are just options for our coworkers. And early on, I had really felt this strong pull to offer them as telehealth rooms. Like, if you don't have a quiet, dedicated space— and in fact, I'll just say it, like, our facility can totally be used for that. There's no reason anybody would have any doubts. Or, and if you have questions about how, like, any of those things, we would be willing to help you. I don't want there to be any of those access things. Like, you know, sometimes it's money. What about insurance? I feel like you said something to me when we first talked about some of the myths about telehealth.

Yeah.

From an insurance perspective.

Yeah. And so some people will say like, one, that they didn't even know that insurance covers mental health services. You know, I'm still getting that to this day. I think I took a call just last week and someone was like, well, are you sure insurance covers mental health? I'm like, yes, they do. But you know, a caveat with that, right? Just like if you're going to see your medical provider, it's the same thing is you may have a deductible, you may have a copay, you may have coinsurance.

Right.

And that is regardless of what service you're getting. And so, you know, I always encourage anyone who reaches out is definitely contact your insurance, just like I would say if someone's going to get a medical procedure is I would contact your insurance and figure out like, what are you going to owe upfront, whatever. And so, you know, I can run that too, or any other mental health practice can run your insurance to see like what the coverage is and whatever that may be. But The other piece with it is there are certain insurances that are starting to go away from approving telehealth. And I would say it's like very limited, those insurances that are going away from that. And I think some of those changes start in 2025.

What— January 1st, 2025. Do you have any knowledge or understanding of why they would be making that choice given the climate that we're in and like I mean, the overall, like, the society we live in, like, why would they be pulling that now?

I'm not for sure on this, but I do know that some of these companies that are maybe pulling away from telehealth are exploring more a very narrow amount of providers who are approved to do that telehealth service.

Oh, I see.

Yeah, because there are these, I would say, like bigger companies out there who are like solely telehealth. And so they've looked into that. Now I can't speak for each the few insurances that are kind of taking this step here, but you know, so there could be other reasons too, but that's just some of the stuff that I've heard. But I would say most of the insurances that we take in North Dakota approve telehealth. I have not had an issue with it. At the end of the day, it's just like any service. I would still recommend people follow up with their insurance directly, just because the more you know. And I know I don't like going to a provider and all of a sudden getting this big old bill because then I'm like, uh, what? I did not know this.

So, right, right. Okay, so we will provide links to your website, of course, in the show notes so people can access you, especially if they're in North Dakota, Minnesota, or like you said earlier, on a border state where a quick drive across the border is actually doable for you. I love that that's an option for people. But so kind of to close out our episode, Jordan, when you think about the fact that we're talking primarily about serving rural places, right? Like, that's a passion of yours because you know that more than likely they don't have a practitioner right in their own backyard. If you do and you're in a small town, go thank them because that's a really big deal. We have a few here and it's phenomenal. And honestly, we just had another woman in town that's worked in one of our healthcare systems for years, and she just went back and has actually completed her— the schooling she needed as well. So it's just amazing that there are people that are drawn to the field because we really are going to need all hands on deck out here, right?

Yes.

But when you think about kind of going back to what we talked about early on, that the system is— obviously there's a lot of work to be done. And so to avoid that feeling of like almost despair and just throw our hands up because there's nothing we can really do. If you could recommend kind of one major thing for everybody listening to this to do, and it might be that the advice is for themselves or for the people they care about. Either way, you can answer it however you want. What's something that you think every single one of us can do in our communities?

In our communities, I would say don't take no for an answer.

Okay. Yeah. Say more.

Yeah. And so what I mean by that is there's always going to be that one person who is just like, nope, nope. We go by the book. We go by the book. This is just how it's done. And it's okay to rock the boat a little bit. Now, okay, within reason, don't get in trouble here. But if you do have a passion for something, I would say go for it. And keep pushing and finding those connections. Because I mean, I know I wouldn't be where I'm at today if I didn't have connections and if I didn't make those connections myself too. And so I would just say is like, just don't take no for an answer and keep on pushing. If there is something, especially when it comes to mental health in rural parts of North Dakota, it is going to be hard and there are going to be processes out there that do need to be changed, right?

And it's kind of on that advocacy front, right? Like, yeah, keep advocating. I love that because I think truly anything that we can do, I think, I hope that this conversation alone enriches somebody's life, right? And reminds them, A, that they're not alone. I mean, that's the big reason that like our focus on community stuff has been so important to me because I want people to know, because when you're feeling really down, like I've had some really down days. I mean, I have. And on those really, really down days, I do isolate, right? I do withdraw. I do pull into myself and I feel ugly and I feel unlovable. I feel very, very lonely. The more that we can just say like, that's how it feels. It's not just you. Any of us that are human have had an experience that feels like that.

Mm-hmm.

And so I just think the more that we can say like, no, it's not, that's not just you. That's just that feeling. And we all experience it. We come in and out of it. There's sometimes there's whole seasons of it, and there are things that cause it. There are things that seemingly don't cause it. It's really just normalizing the full range of human experiences and emotions because it always feels better when anytime somebody says, oh gosh, me too. Like, if there's just something so comforting about it, and that's why I think it's so important.

Yeah. And you know, it's interesting that you bring that up is because actually for my business, it's a part of therapeutic services. And where that comes from is it's a part of life and everything that we experience on a day-to-day basis is a part of the bigger picture. And there are those really, really down days. There's those really exciting days. There's those meh days. So it is the full range. And the reason why you're going through this, and not to get religious or spiritual, anything like that, is there is a reason for everything that you are doing. And there are various factors that got you to the place that you're in. And whatever that may be, is just remembering is that it is a part of life and that there is other avenues out there, whether it's to seek help or increasing those supports for yourself, whatever it may be, but that there's definitely more out there than maybe what your mind in the moment, that tunnel vision, is allowing you to see.

Right. Well, Jordyn, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for doing this work and being a light in this conversation because it is, it can be really challenging at times, but I think the more we talk about and make access more readily available to everybody related especially to telehealth. And then I think again, like normalizing that we've gotten really good at Zoom and COVID 100% pushed us against the wall. There's no question about that, right?

Yeah.

That's not necessarily what we all wanted to do, but we wanted to see somebody, we wanted to see people. And so that's what we were forced to do. And now let's just see it as an opportunity, saving on drive time, saving on gas money, saving on all the things and still getting access to quality healthcare. It's super important. So again, thank you so much for everything you're doing, and we'll be sure to make sure everybody knows how to get a hold of you.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.