143. Getting Beyond the STP (Same Ten People) in Your Small Town

Today's episode of the Growing Small Town Show is different. This is actually a live podcast recording from the main stage at the 2024 Main Street Summit here in North Dakota, in the great city of Watford City on the western side of our state. We were invited to do a live podcast episode, um, so there was a live audience. You don't really hear them much on this recording, but we were actually sitting in front of a group of live humans. And so it's kind of a fun episode. It again follows the style of our podcast, just a nice, beautiful, lovely weaving organic conversation. The guests that are joining me today are Pat Bertagnoli. He is the executive director of Job Service of North Dakota and a transplant to the state of North Dakota and just like a wild, warm, loving advocate, like a really passionate advocate for community engagement, especially as it relates to youth. He's really got a lock on that. It's pretty cool. And then our other guest is Mike Knudson with Dakota Resources, a group that I have come to love partnering with in all the ways that we can. They're out of South Dakota. We will link to both of those organizations, of course, in the chat. But when I got the invitation to speak and to offer this live podcast, I went out to social media. I talk about this a little bit in the intro when, when you actually start to hear the, the episode. But I went out and I was like, okay, we have this cool opportunity, friends. What do you need the most help with when it comes to attitudes and mindsets in your small communities? And kind of overwhelmingly the topic came back to this idea of how do we get more people to engage in the work of making our community great? So you could label this how to combat civic apathy, which we have a couple of great episodes and we'll link those in the show notes too with Jeff Sigler from Revitalize Your Diet. That's a big thing for him. Like, how do you get over apathy, civic apathy? Also, how we labeled this for the summit was getting beyond the STP, getting beyond the same 10 people. How do you get more people involved? And so there's a little bit of diagnosis that we talk about. And again, There's no silver bullet and magic bullet to these things. But I think for us at Growing Small Towns, it always comes back to what do humans do and how are humans motivated? And then leveraging that, like actually being mindful and thoughtful about the fact that if you're trying to get humans to do something, it's totally got to be about them. And we have to take a more personalized and human approach if we want people to say yes to our opportunities. So I really hope you find the conversation valuable. I listened back to the whole thing, which I normally don't do, but I think the perspective that Mike has working with many rural communities throughout South Dakota primarily, and then of course Pat with Job Service, there's a workforce angle to this, there's a community enrichment angle to this. And ultimately, from my perspective as the host of the show and a passionate people person, this is about how we make our communities places people want to be. And it comes back to a sense of belonging and a sense of contribution, a sense of purpose. That's what humans want in the community that they live in. And we have, as like community development people, or just the people that care, a lot of the people that listen to the show, a lot of you listeners are like, seriously, just a good human trying to do cool stuff in your small towns, right? We can affect this, we can impact this. There's just a lot of ways that we can look at thinking differently about the ways we're asking, who we're asking, how we're asking, and actually being willing to revisit the way this stuff we're needing help with, the way that it's structured, the way that people can come to it. There's a lot of opportunities to tweak. And so even if you take one idea away from this and decide to do it, it will make a difference in your community. So enjoy this first ever live podcast. It was a really fun opportunity from the Main Street Summit in North Dakota. Enjoy, friends. Hello, hello, hello again, everyone. Welcome to our final concurrent session of the day. We appreciate you joining us for Getting Beyond the STP, Same 10 People in Small Communities. So please get ready for some great content during this live podcast recording. And now please welcome to our stage the Growing Small Town show host, Rebecca Undum. All right. Hi everybody. So it's not just me. I don't need 3 mics. So I'm gonna welcome my 2 friends. They can come right up on stage and we'll get into this conversation. My friends are sitting down here. I'll just say that thank you to the Main Street Summit for inviting us to do a live podcast episode, which is really pretty cool. As the host of that show and the executive director of the nonprofit Growing Small Towns, we're located in Oaks. Southeast corner of the state, the privilege of engaging in really cool conversations with really cool people doing cool stuff in their small towns. And so when I got this opportunity, I went out to social media and I asked the question, what topic would serve you the best? And in a variety of different ways and answers, this challenge of engaging more people to volunteer in our communities kept coming up. And so I was really excited about that topic. I certainly feel it from time to time in my town. And I'll just give these two the chance to introduce themselves in a minute, but right away I knew I wanted Pat to join us. Now, he has got such a great understanding of how to get into the hearts of people. And that's really what— that's the impetus of volunteering. If you were in the previous session with the Ambassadors, he really understands how to do that with you. So I was super excited to bring Pat. Mike Knutson is with Dakota Resources in South Dakota. I'm on their advisory council, full disclosure. I love Dakota Resources. I love the work that they're doing, the way they approach community development. It's really people-centric. It's really aligned with the things that I believe. And both of these gentlemen have worked in a lot of small towns in particular, and they've seen a lot of things. So Mike, why don't you round out your intro? What made you say yes? Maybe that's my question.

Well, you asked.

I did.

Yeah, that's why I said yes here.

Well, so that might be a theme of this discussion.

And actually, I thought about this a little bit. You know, I want to say thank you because Watford City has been on my bucket list of places to visit for 20 years.

Oh, anybody from Watford City listening to that? Yeah, look at that.

I'd love to talk. I won't go into the story of why, but the challenge has been it's 7.5 hours to get here. That's always been the hindrance.

But you asked, right?

And when we think about engaging people, Isn't that sort of the first step?

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Yep.

An authentic ask.

Right.

Do you get to them? Do you help them feel like they're, they're a part of something and that you value?

Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, we'll come back to that, 'cause that's gonna be a first thing that we'll talk about. Pat, what made you say yes to this?

Well, I try to surround myself around people who wanna make a difference in this world, and that's you. And I've been a fan of your work, Growing Small Towns, all that type of stuff. But just a quick story, my wife and I were on the eastern part of the state and I reached out to Oakes and I said, hey, my wife's with me and I'd like to just come in. It was a Saturday. I know you were out of town that day, but Taylor and Sonya Meal, who's the chair of the CT board, they met us for 2 hours and gave us a great tour. And I'm a super fan of what you guys are doing over there. And it's really a litmus test for me and how excited are people to share their communities and that type of stuff. So we actually went back to Irrigation Days. We went back to Oakes. And so I just love the work that you're doing and how you're bringing out the best in people. So I said yes, even though I try to kind of weasel out of it a little bit, but you're right.

Yeah, I wasn't letting that happen.

No, she wasn't letting it happen. Didn't take no for an answer.

Right.

Happy to be here.

Yeah. Can I just jump in and say that anybody who heard Pat at the last session would want to be back here.

100%.

Right?

And I'm on— 100%.

I mean, and thank you for doing the work with youth. I'm a former teacher, and so I've got that in my back pocket. You know, that's my heart and soul too. So thanks.

So I think a cool place to start is just to come back to your original point. Are we asking? And then as a follow-up to that, who are we asking and how? So what, if anything, have you seen as a— before we get into the tactics, I mean, that's what we always want, right? We wanna walk away with tangible ideas that people can try. Let's actually take a step back and diagnose a bit why the STP is a thing that we even say. I mean, and have you seen this play out in communities? The idea of the STP, the same 10 people.

Have we?

Absolutely. Across South Dakota, it feels like it's the same people on the same boards for repeated times. Then you start asking, well, why? That's the challenging part. I think there's different reasons why, but it often is the same 10, right?

And sometimes the frustration is on the part of those same 10 people, and they're like, where is everybody? Why isn't anybody stepping up? I guess I'm running again. Didn't know this was a lifetime appointment kind of a thing, right? And sometimes the Frustration is on the part of people that are upset that the same 10 people are making all the decisions, and so there's air quotes around that. So I think there's probably more than one angle to think about this from, from the viewpoint of, but how about you, Pat? Is this something, do you feel like you've seen this? Do you feel like you've heard it?

Yes, absolutely. It's alive and well. And, you know, I just even think back to my UPS days where it's a pretty intense environment, but what I really loved about what that organization did is they got us out there to be involved in our community. And really what they were doing is that, yes, you do have an intense job, you do have an intense schedule, but there are people that are less fortunate than you. And so that was really something that kind of opened my eyes. And I actually was the employee relations manager for UPS for a few years and really oversaw that. And, you know, just trying to find people that had that passion and, you know, whether it be Boys and Girls Club or whatever it might be, but yeah, seeing it live and well.

Yeah. Go ahead, Mike.

Well, I was just gonna share, I almost feel like I wanna share a bit of my personal story. 'Cause I used to be one of those people on the sideline saying no.

Saying no and saying, "Oh, those 10 people are the leaders." They're the ones that make the decision.

Well, I didn't care.

Yeah, oh, fair. I think we call that civic apathy.

Yeah.

Civic apathy.

Well, so here's my story.

You had to look that up.

Yeah. That's fine.

I graduated and started teaching in a small town, and I didn't see that town having a future. So why involve myself? I'm gonna focus on the kids. That's what my passion is. How do I get out there? But then—

Oh, even as a teacher you had that. That's interesting.

Yeah, well, I think in some places schools are isolated.

Agreed.

They can be isolated from the general public. It's like a different place.

Yeah.

But here's what happened. A group of students held a community meeting, part because of their teacher, held a community meeting, and they challenged us all to spend more money locally. They said, if you buy local, these dollars will turn over. And if we just do 10%, if everybody tries to spend 10% more, it'll have a bigger impact. And it did. It had over 30% growth in sales tax the next year. And I was like, holy cow, I'm part of the problem. Yeah. I'm part of the decline. And so then they invited us to be a part of community meetings where we met in kitchen tables. We just read a couple articles, went to a host family, had a conversation about the future. Of our community. First time somebody's asking me what I think. Cool. And I was like—

Yeah, and how did that make you, honestly, what did that do for you at that time in your career?

Made me feel like I was valued.

Right.

Made me feel like I had something to give. Made me think that I could do something for this beyond just teaching in the school. It was a paradigm shift. It's what led me into economic development work.

Cool.

If that hadn't happened, I'd still be on the sideline, maybe.

Yeah, so to that point, there's something I want to touch on there. It's this idea, and I'm just gonna say it, I think sometimes I feel like I don't belong in economic development. I've said that. I've said that publicly a few times. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I, I don't know, but here I am. They're happy to let me, happy to let me try and fail. It's fine. But I think sometimes there's this notion that if we wanna make something happen in a community, we've gotta find the leaders. And so again, there's air quotes around that because what I really hope everybody takes away from this, and you just said it, Mike, it's the idea that every single human in our communities has something of value to contribute. And I think sometimes we get maybe a little too wrapped up in what the official position or job is of these people, because sometimes your job is actually like the least interesting thing about you. Your entire life experience has created who you are that gives you a perspective that no other human on the planet has. And so if nothing else, as you're listening to this and you're thinking about this, if you're one of those people maybe that sits on the sidelines and thinks, I don't know what I would contribute. I will call BS on that. Of course you have something to contribute and this is your community, right? So I think that's sometimes, that's a mindset thing. A lot of the stuff I care about, frankly, when it comes to these conversations is what's going on between the ears and in the hearts of all of us. And sometimes it's subtle mindset shifts that can make big differences. Any thoughts on that, Pat, on this idea of everybody can contribute and everybody's voice needs to be heard?

And I'll be honest, you know, as an HR professional, I really think about the industry side of things and I'll say just as a leader, I'll brag up my UPS people back in the day. They were Volunteer of the Year for Lewis and Clark County United Way. But what we really learned and understood was that when we were going out there and doing the cancer walks, the MS walks and stuff, what we realized is that we all know people who are impacted by those things and that we have an opportunity to go walk together to support and celebrate. Just be intentional by caring about one another. So that's kind of where my head is, is just from the company perspective.

Yeah, so what's interesting about that is I think a lot of the events that we're probably talking about needing help with are likely to be nonprofit events, right? Or charitable events or community events. Sometimes it's board positions. There's all sorts of reasons and positions and spots we need to fill. But I think reminding ourselves that giving, so all of this is giving, right? It's service. It's not just, it's treasure, but it's time and talent, that kind of trifecta of giving and giving the root of it is that it's always personal. And so you make a really good point. I think maybe we can dovetail into the idea of what are we asking people for and are we asking the right people the right questions when it comes to how to engage them? Because truthfully, if I am not impacted, I'll just tell you all of you in the audience and then all the people that are gonna listen to this episode when we produce it next week, If you need help with your cat something, I'm not the person to call. Okay? That's not my passion. I mean, and seriously, I get asked to do all the things, but I patently turn down supporting things with cats. It's just not my thing. So I think it's just recognizing that we wanna know enough about that person. We wanna make sure there's alignment. That sometimes I think is a key we're missing in this conversation because we get desperate for help. And then we're like, well, you have a pulse, you seem to be breathing, so maybe we'll ask you. But what do you think? How could we do better when it comes to actually asking and thinking kind of mindfully about that alignment?

I'll just share a little bit of my time here at the Roughrider Center in Watford City before I moved to Bismarck. But we'd throw out the old email, mass email, asking people to support, and I had somebody from a church reach out to me and said, "Pat, we got those folks that are out there helping." And I said, "Well, I gotta be honest with you, they're not showing up." And I said, "That's more my problem than it is yours." So I found these folks at an activity and I said, "Ow you an apology." We're so needy. We need, need, need, want, want, want. We know nothing about you folks. And so I invited those folks to come in. We got the leadership team here at the Roughrider Center together. And we said, "The time is yours. We wanna know your story and what your passion is with doing this volunteer stuff." And they were so moved. And some of them actually ended up leaving and wanted a picture with us. But one of them also went back to California, picked up her sister, loaded up their car, and moved back to Watford City, North Dakota.

Holy smokes, that's amazing. Okay, so that's a really clear thing that you decided to do, taking that step back. And I'll just say this, if you're sending form letters to get volunteers, to get board members, to recruit anybody, There's a better way, and the better way is even a step towards what Pat just mentioned. We have to be willing to make these asks face-to-face because it's personal. And so we wanna make sure that we're actually inviting that person to contribute the best of themselves. And we won't know that without asking.

But also recognizing them for their efforts, 'cause people don't just wanna show up and not be acknowledged, and we all want support, encouragement, and that type of stuff. So I think what gets recognized gets repeated.

For sure. Love that.

Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. I think that your story is the same thing that happened to me, right? All of a sudden, they didn't ask me what I want, but they're asking me what I want for my community, and I felt like I was a part of it. And I— so that's what motivates us, right? We feel heard. We feel like we're a part of that. And it's kind of cool you say and recognize them. You know, one of the things we do in our Thriver Network, which we operate at Dakota Resources, we give— we allow people to give a mug to somebody who has been a Thriver for them. Somebody who has done something to help them. That little recognition, it's like those mugs. People want those dang mugs because they're being recognized.

So I'd like to— this is, again, there's a train of thought in my brain. Sorry, y'all are on the Rebecca train. But I think one of the things we're talking about too is this idea of engaging people earlier, potentially, in this process because I don't— maybe this is just oops, But that's the way we've always done it. Maybe we only say that in Oaks and none of you know what I'm talking about. If so, I guess it's just us. But the way we've always done it is such an important thing to, first of all, hear yourself saying, if you're saying it, and then really be brave enough to challenge that. Because sometimes I think the reason we struggle to get volunteers is because we actually kind of suck to volunteer for. So I'll say that and then hear what you two think about that. And what I mean by that is if the event, especially if it's got a lot of endurance and it's been going for a long, long, long, long time, if the people that are running it haven't ever really changed over, if the volunteer schedule looks exactly the same as it has for the past 10 years, right? All I'm saying is there may be some opportunity to crack some of that open, blow some of the doors off of it, and then remind ourselves, why are we doing this thing in the first place? And asking people, where would you like to show up and how would you like it to be? Instead of saying like, I need you to run a concession stand between 2:00 PM and 5:00 PM on Thursday and Friday for this event, thinking a little more broadly about how it's structured. So I'll throw that out and you two share your thoughts.

I wanna jump in right away because that's what I was gonna talk or almost interrupt you on a minute ago, right?

Yeah, great.

There's a phrase that I think is so true. People own what they help create.

Yes.

And I think that's what she's talking about.

Exactly.

We want to tell them, here's what we want you to do for us.

Right.

As opposed to giving them that autonomy, that authority and respect that, hey, they can do it. Hey, let's let them create it with us and we can shape it into what we want.

Yeah. So we were actually just talking about this, my table and I were talking about this at the Arts session right before lunch. It's the idea and the truth that co-creation creates both commitment to the thing that's been created and it creates community. It creates a sense of buy-in when people had a part in actually crafting it. So when was the last time you actually allowed for that with the thing that you're trying to get volunteers for? How about you, Pat? Anything come to mind with that?

One word comes to mind, complacency. And Probably one of my favorite things is to go around to the different communities and kind of immerse myself and remind the community what I see and what they forgot.

Mm, love that.

And to me, I'm sorry, community vibrancy takes work, but it's exhilarating work, it's purposeful work, it's meaningful work. So I think that some of the opportunity is to just remind people of that. And to me, part of my presentation at the beginning was to talk about just simple concepts of support, encouragement, finding ways to bring out the best in each other.

Right. So on that note too, I think it's, it's encouraging. Let's talk a little bit about youth. My background outside of community development is organizational development. So that just means I, I work with companies. We talk about culture. One of the big things that everybody's asking for support in or help in is just how do I lead Gen Z employees? They seem like these weirdo anomaly people and we don't know what to do with them, right? That's kind of the like, or they're just, oh, they're so entitled. You know, there's all sorts of, ways that we can brand every generation. Every generation has had its, its awesome benefits, and every single one's had its challenges. This one is no different. The big difference for all of us, and this is not just on the workforce side, but I think it's important to talk about it from a workforce perspective, especially with your role, especially that here in the state of North Dakota, we've got 30,000 open jobs. It's not just that they have their own challenges, but pretty soon that workforce, that pool of the workforce, is going to be overtaking our workforce as baby boomers continue to retire. So one of the trends that I think we maybe haven't fully embraced or yet maybe understood is the socially conscious nature of this youngest generation. It's hard to fathom because I'm older than that. It's hard to fathom having actually never not had a device in your hand. So their access to the world beyond them has always been massive compared to a lot of us, especially in small communities. But what that's also unlocked is they have a sense of connection to these bigger things and they care about them. All of the research shows that this is a socially conscious generation. And so all of us saying, well, we need more help with volunteering. You have a perfectly poised group of people, at least motivationally, to engage. So what do you think about that and what are some ways we can engage this, this generation? Youngest generation, knowing that, because it's not anecdotal, it's research-based. They are socially conscious and they care.

Well, you gotta let them do what they wanna do rather than telling them what they need to do. And I'm just sort of thinking of some, a youth group in Miller, South Dakota. The economic development director wanted to engage the youth, so she got a group together, invited a couple of them to come to a conference with her. They learned about some pop-up businesses, how you can stimulate pop-up businesses. They brought this idea back. They pitched it to their friends, their kids, their friends got engaged, feeling like that's their own. They felt like they could make a difference. And so what they ended up doing is creating an event that's called Cozy Cabin Christmas. They brought in cabins, which were just storage sheds made by a guy in town, put them on Main Street and invited businesses who don't have storefronts. To sell their products during Christmas.

That's so cool. That's so cool.

It was their idea though.

Right.

So, you know, this idea of this work that was done when I was a teacher, that's actually been written about in lots of publications. It's nationally known. Wall Street Journal, Education Today, Dan and Chip Heath wrote about it in their book Switch. I've seen lots of community leaders try to implement it in their school. It's their idea though, and it's not the young people's idea. It flops every time, even with the best coaching. Yeah, it flops because the students have to own it.

Make it theirs. That's, I think, I mean, really, if nothing else, that is the key. And again, right now we're talking about generations, but all humans want to be a part of creating or putting something on that they help generate. It's fundamental to who we are as humans.

So when I interviewed the economic development director, she said the most important thing that I want to impress upon everybody is if you gather students together, you got to let them do. What they wanna do. You can help them a little bit, but they gotta be the ones to do it. And you gotta show some action. You gotta do something with whatever you ask. If you ask for their input and you don't do anything with it, they're disenchanted. That's apathy.

Right, right, right. And again, I will say this, it beyond students, if we're gathering people together, if you're putting out community surveys, if you're doing anything where you're asking for input and you're maybe not acknowledging what you got for feedback or you're not doing anything with it, that is the fastest way to disengage most of the public. Population in your community because they just don't feel like anything's being done with their input.

I'm thinking about, I was at a Greater North Dakota Chamber event in at HESS in Minot, and I wanna say it was 2019 or 2020, I can't remember, but we had 12 students up there and they said the question to 'em, Gen Z, do you need something in return for participating in different events? And they all said yes, but I'll never forget Lydia McCauley. She said that helping our community with recruiting retention is something in it for us. And so I thought that was fantastic. And I do think, and again, for those of you that saw the presentation, these were not my ideas. And to your point, it was like, you know, what does this look like to you? I mean, for these kids to wanna work on mental health, promote an active lifestyle and stuff, that wasn't my idea. That was them. And you see the empowerment that they have, you know, to go out and wanna do great things, but because it's their idea.

Love it. So when you think about, let's actually focus for a minute on, go ahead, Mike.

I wanna just jump in what repeated back to that. Please, please do it.

Yep.

And because of that experience, they're gonna have a different outlook towards engagement, involvement as they move into the world, right?

Yeah, as an, as adults, as they grow.

They feel like they can make a difference. Now they can still get squashed down by the rest of us if we don't continue that practice, but at least you kicked 'em off down the right road.

So to that point, that, that actually is a perfect segue. Let's talk about the mindset of potentially the same 10 people. Okay. So I'm not gonna demonize the same 10 people. We need those people. I'm not in any way saying that, but this, hopefully what this conversation is to do is to really think about what potentially is getting in our way and what experience can we create for people that'll help open their minds differently, right? This is change. That's what change, that's what progress looks like. So what might be some of the things that the same 10 people need to be reminded of? To help open up some of these doors?

I'll go.

Yeah, please do.

I'm an emotional intelligence guy, but I'll use Furry Friends Rock and Rescue out of Bismarck as an example. I'm a pet fanatic, dogs, not cats.

I know, I'm sorry. Sorry, everybody.

But I always ask people, what's your why? And sometimes I think they need to be reminded of why they're doing what they're doing. You know, when I ask those folks that do that type of work, it reminds them of why they do those things. And so to me, the same 10 people Why do you do this? And I think kind of just going back to that, this is a football, like the Vince Lombardi, it's like reminding them, oh my gosh, this is why I'm doing this. And then to me, taking that why and sharing it with others that may have some same similar desires to create impact in those arenas, you know, around stuff. So to me, my go-to is what's your why?

Great question. Mike, what do you think?

Yeah, so what I was reminded of as you asked the question is just that, We work with economic development boards and often they don't realize that they're the problem or that they're having a negative impact. And I'll give you this as an example. We tried doing some board development with economic development groups about 10 years ago. Nobody wanted it. We know what we're doing.

We don't need that.

Right. Then we started a little different process. We gave them a survey and it's really an evaluation, a self-evaluation of your board and your organization. And then had a conversation about the results. And when we had this conversation about the results, all of a sudden we could see that, oh, well, we don't have new voices on here. We don't have a diverse board.

We don't have term limits.

Term limits, right? Oh, they're in the bylaws. Do you follow the bylaws? Oh, no.

We haven't looked at our bylaws since 1975.

So that conversation, we help them make meaning of—

The results.

—of the results. And all of a sudden they're like, yeah, we could use a little help. It's not that they've been not wanting, they just didn't realize that there was a problem. Sure, sure.

I think something that comes to the core of this, 'cause again, there's human factors at play in all of this, right? Deep psychology. And sometimes I think our same 10 people, their entire self-worth and value and relevance is tied into whatever that thing is that they've been doing for so, so long. And so there's, it's delicate, it's tricky, but I think somehow I'll just tell you, I've had this conversation on the org development side too. And usually what it looks like is somebody who's kind of toxic to the culture, but they're only 2 years out from retirement. So, you know, we don't wanna ruffle their feathers and, you know, we can't really let 'em go because they're in a protected, you know, all this stuff. How I've talked to employers about this, and I think we could potentially look at this when it comes to the same 10 people not being willing to give it up or to let go of the reins, is simply reminding them, When you step away from this thing, of your own volition, of course, 'cause we're not kicking you out, how do you wanna be remembered? Ooh, that's good. Because I mean, most people don't wanna exit the organization. You know, you get a cake because it's customary, but everyone else is just like, oh, thank God they're gone, right? So I think if, if this person has that much of their self-worth tied into this thing, and it would be a one-on-one conversation saying, and thank them. Thank them for their commitment and their time and their dedication and their service, and then ask that question, how do you wanna be remembered? Because part of my job is to help you, help you reach that goal as this thing stays going, right?

Leave it a legacy. Leave it, yeah, exactly.

What do you think about that? Have you seen any other ways to engage that group of people? Because it's gotta be done with grace and love and care and compassion. You know, I'm not saying we just say, you're the problem, get out.

Yes, I, I love it. I think that's an awesome way. I, I am, I'm gonna try to pick that up myself. I think that a lot of people even realize that they are a part of the problem. They just don't want to admit it. And as part of just having that conversation one-on-one, they're gonna see it. They're gonna recognize it's time.

I think sometimes it becomes about them instead of about the why, the big why. Yeah. You know, every single person has their own why, but sometimes we need to come all the way back and say, what was this thing even intended to do? How did this thing get started? Even with boards. And that's why bylaws need to be revisited, right? Because that's kind of the founding document. What do you think?

Well, you know, I just think that in the, just the world of work and that type of stuff, you know, I can't tell you how many times people have said, "Well, if you want greater responsibility, find your replacement." So I think there's opportunity to maybe even leverage that a little bit, that you've had such a great impact in this community and really like perfect mentor to find that replacement and find ways to carry on your legacy.

Yeah, I think you can phrase it by saying, "We need your help to find the next you." Yep. Right?

And then they take it serious, but you know, and obviously with their commitment, with their volunteerism and that type of stuff, I think it means more to them, and it's just pass the baton.

Right. Mentor. Yeah, I was just thinking about, as we think of boards, so too often we don't think about who needs to be on the board, and we have a very limited view on who needs to be on the board, and we don't ask the questions about, do we have diversity on our board? Do we have different groups, different voices, right? Amen, right? That's what we need in order to make wise decisions. So as we approach this and have some conversation, it should be about, well, who's missing?

That's a great question.

Who's missing from the conversation? And it may not be the banker when there's 5 other bankers on that board already, right? That's a good point.

And I would say too, just the opportunity and just what is that network? And I'm just going to be honest, I was talking to the chamber here in Watford City and they have people that rotate out of this board I'm like, do you know Jill Leach at the Bakken Area Skills Center? No. Well, I'd be going after her with the work that she's doing. So what's that arena? Are we looking at everybody in terms of the diversity and what they can bring to the table in terms of whatever it is that you're trying to achieve?

Well, and I think the other big piece of this that I think is important to think about is what meaningful engagement on the part of residents, what it does for retention of those residents. So that's a workforce thing. So why don't we talk about that a little bit? So we know that it's hard. It's really hard to get people to move to your town or to get people to move to your state. Now, asking them is a huge deal. You could maybe wanna share that, 'cause if everybody in this room doesn't know the story of how you landed here, it's pretty direct and pretty compelling. Do you wanna share that?

Just how I got here and how I got invited. I had multi-state operations, HR, that type of stuff, met a lot of great people throughout that journey. And one of the folks I met was based out of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. His name was Terry. And we were all surprised that he left the organization in 2010. He went to help his hometown with an oil boom, and that hometown was Watford City, North Dakota. And so he had reached out to me in June of 2011. He said, "I need an HR guy and you're it." And I said, "Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not leaving Montana.

I'm not leaving UPS and I'm sure not coming to North Dakota." I love that, like so adamant. Yeah. And no, no, and no thank you.

No thanks. And you know, so then he said, "Well, just do me a favor and come take a look at it." And they made that very easy. They flew a private jet into Helena, Montana to pick me up. And I said, "I'm listening." I always tell people when I came back to Watford City, saw the hustle bustle in 2011, it wasn't the job that got me. Somebody from a restaurant chased after me, the owner at the time, Angie Pelton, and she said, "Pat, it was wonderful to meet you. We hope you consider joining our community. We'd love to have you." I had an emotion overcome me, and that emotion was that I felt that sense of community and belonging. And I will tell you, in my time in North Dakota, it's something that I've tried to duplicate for others that come here. But what I really learned throughout that whole process is just the importance of connecting people to that community and understanding that they do have the opportunity and the ability, and really we need them to get off the bench, get in the game, and deliver and connect and make a difference in their community that they now call home.

So what you felt was you felt that you mattered.

Yes, yeah, and how I say that, they made me feel welcome, special, important, needed, and wanted. Sealed the deal and I moved my family to Watford Springs.

It's an enormous deal. This is gonna sound, it's a plug for something, but I just literally got, just yesterday, I was, I got to be a part of TEDxCavalier. Cavalier is a small town in North Dakota. They brought TEDx to Cavalier. Very cool because up till then it was Bismarck and Fargo were the only places that had had that. And literally that, that's what I talked about. The power of personal invitation, looking somebody in the eye and saying, we need you and we want you.

Had that, you know, had she not said that to me, I'll tell you right now, I'd still be in Montana.

I think, you know, again, conversations that I've had throughout the day, even today, every single person that works the front line of anything in your community, like if they work at the gas station, they are actually sometimes the only ambassador for your community, especially if you live like on an interstate and people are stopping and they're buying gas. How we treat those folks matters So much. This person, she wasn't tasked to do that, right? She owned the restaurant. This was the person that said that to you? Oh yeah, yeah.

She owned the restaurant. Yeah. Yeah.

So just again, the idea that no matter what our role is, no matter who we are, we all have that innate ability to look somebody in the eye and with an intention and with truth say, we need you, we need you and we want you.

And I think there, you know, I sense some collaboration, you know, and when you get people to come to your community, where do you take 'em? What do you tell 'em? What do you show 'em? Get your story straight. You got one one chance to make a great first impression, and they blew my mind.

Yeah, yeah. And so I think, I mean, that's again, that idea of that every single person can take that back. And I think too, and you said this earlier, who are the people you've done life with in other places that, you know, or even in the community, who have you done things with in the community that you know would be great for something? That's how to have this conversation is to say, you know, we've got this opportunity, and maybe it would be, you know, if it's volunteering or if it's being on a board or what have you, and just saying everything I know about you. Here's why. Here's why you would be incredible for this. We'd love to have you come and visit a board meeting or whatever it is that you're gonna do to give 'em a way to taste it and experience it. But that one-on-one, it's significant. It's, yes. We all have an innate need to feel like we matter. Yeah.

I don't know that I have anything extra to say though.

I totally agree. I mean, I agree.

And just even when you were talking about the phone and all that stuff and just the, Well-being, mental health, and all this other type of stuff. I mean, these are all venues or avenues to go out and pursue greatness and enjoy life and protect the well-being and all that type of stuff.

Right, so we were kind of talking about there's two facets of this, right? There's getting them here. So that was your getting, we got you here story. What keeps people in our communities?

What keeps people in our community? I think it is, it's sense of community and belonging is how I would talk about that. Riley, who I had on our panel earlier, she's just blossomed in working at the Ag Expo, understanding how important our youth are to even her and her role. And sometimes with a mom and dad, maybe for lack of better words, being a little lazy and kind of focusing on those kids and just really focusing on making sure that they have an exceptional experience and they take the kids along for the ride. So she's completely building this whole network of people surrounded around the kids. And she actually had said to me in some of her notes that I feel so supported. I have no boundaries as far as going out and getting anybody to help. But I will tell you too that just with her commitment and the things that she's done in this community, people respect her. And they're going to be— everybody's standing behind Riley Fowler. Yeah. What she's doing with the showmanship and the kids and teaching these kids how to get into 4-H and stuff like that. She's driven, she's purposeful, and people support that.

They do. That's what I think it is. What do you think, Mike? What is the thing that gets people to want to stay?

Well, it's again, the sense of community, right? And that's what we have to sell. We can do that better than a big city. Yes. Amen.

Right? Yes. But do we? Yeah.

It takes intentionality as well. That's the question, right? And so if we create those spaces, those places, those things as individuals and as groups, then we're going to be successful in the long run. And do you have a welcoming committee? Do you have a welcoming initiative in your community? How are you helping somebody get into it? Because as my wife and I don't have any kids, we don't have that vehicle of the school to get engaged. That becomes tough.

And thank you for saying that because that's a challenge. Once you have children and your children are in a school system, especially if they play sports or their extracurriculars or whatever, you, you have a little bit of a built-in sense of community. Those folks that come to your community without that, it is our job. It is our job to understand them, to get to know them, and to plug them in wherever, whatever, because that's what it is. You know, we're talking about how to get beyond the same 10 people. If you've got new people moving into your community, you have opportunity, but we don't wanna just rush 'em and say like, here's all the open board positions, pick one. Yeah. Because A, that's not personal. It doesn't at all factor in that they have specific ways they hope to get involved, and it won't have that stickiness effect that we need it to, to make that our community actually become their home.

You just highlighted what Ben Winchester talks about all the time, right? We welcome people into our community. It's important. But when you go welcome 'em, don't invite them to be on the board or this or that. It feels like you're being pushed into something you don't even know about yet. Right.

It can feel special first. Right. Well, and I think initially with newcomers, it's what makes your life feel fulfilling? You know, what things, what activities, what stuff do you like to do to make your life feel fulfilling? And you find that out because you want to know what you can connect them to if you've got those things in your town.

Can I also share though? I think we need to be cautious about thinking that it's the same 10 people doing everything and that we're all martyrs when we're the people doing it. Yeah. Again, I'm a big fan of Ben Winchester. If you haven't heard of Ben Winchester, University of Minnesota Extension scholar, researcher, but Ben will pull up studies of number of nonprofit boards in rural communities and in South Dakota, he will tell us that we have to have 7 out of 10 people serving on our boards or elected positions in order to fill all of them.

Think about that. 7 out of 10.

7 out of 10. All the time. You never get off a board if that's the case, really, right? And then there's just one other thing to think about. We were actually coaching a group of communities through community survey process, how to create it, initiate it, get the feedback, and then share that feedback with your community. And one of the things that a colleague shared with the group just on Monday was we were working in this town of about 500 people. The older people said, oh, younger people don't want to get involved, so let's figure out what's wrong. Well, what they discovered is that the young people were involved, but not just in the things that the older residents were doing. They're coaching their kids, they're doing all these other engagement forms, and they don't have time for this then. So the problem might be we're just doing too many things. We're creating too many nonprofits. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

It'll be interesting to see what that trajectory looks like in the next decade or so.

You know, this path I've gone down to work with our youth, you know, as I kind of reflect on that, why am I here and why am I doing this? But we do have kids and they're all out of the house. I was traumatized by that. You raise them to be independent and then they take off and I'm like, wait, maybe you don't want me to do it. What are you doing? And it's like, I still want 65% of your time. Start out high and negotiate down to 50. Which is why I love dogs, they still need me. And I tell my kids— They do. I recognize loyalty. But really just in getting involved in stuff, it's to replace something that I don't have anymore, but it's very meaningful to me. And so I think that kind of exploring that, I think you said something about how do we, can't remember how you worded it, but that makes me feel safe, it makes me feel whole.

Sense of significance. You know what, the other thing that research in this will bear out, and you're speaking to it directly, is that, that sense of significance also means that we're relied upon. Yes. We all have an innate need that the research on that's really compelling, that we need to know that we're needed in some, some way that somebody somewhere is leaning on us. That's actually a fundamental need. So it's just this balance of how do we help the ones that feel like they have to give everything of themselves, the martyrs. Mm-hmm. Because that's not healthy either. It's not good for them either. It's not good for the longevity of our organizations or our events. Yes, either. Okay, so while we're coming up on close to our 15-minute time period, we wanna open it up to questions. And so maybe we'll give the team a chance to get some microphones out so you can ask us any questions about what you're struggling with in your respective communities. So you've heard a few things as far as things to go check out. Ben Winchester is absolutely amazing. My favorite comment, I'll just share that Ben shared when he came on my podcast, was this idea that the way we talk about our towns We have to own that and control that because nobody's gonna move to your town outta pity. You know, like, wow, it really sounds like they're sucking, they need my help. People don't move to our towns because they feel bad for us. Um, that was a Ben Winchester thing. The other person that I really love listening to, and I like the way he thinks, I like his reflections, his name is Jeff Sigler. He writes a post called Revitalize or Die. And so one of the things I'll share is that one of the ways that he thinks we can combat this idea of civic apathy is just to take action on something, which I love, right? Like you don't need to have a planning committee or have a planning meeting to figure out how to get rid of weeds on Main Street. Just grab a few of your friends, bring, he's like, bring beer, bring garbage bags. You know, you don't drink beer while you're pulling weeds on Main Street unless you have ordinances that allowed for that. But some of these things don't have to be overcomplicated. If you see a problem or something bothers you, think of small ways that you, you know, small steps you could take. To fix it or improve it.

Yeah, and sometimes you don't have to be on the board to go make a difference. That's right, exactly. It's about gathering your crowd. That's another phrase that we like to use. And that's actually what inspired those Miller kids to go do the thing, right? Yeah. They gathered their crowd and went and did it.

Right. Well, and back to your point, that's the power of smaller communities. And honestly, everybody in North Dakota, we're living in smaller communities, right? We're all rural., but we really can, we can influence change quickly. We can shape our communities quickly. And I think sometimes instead of saying nobody cares and nobody wants to do it, we have to just remind ourselves it's a fundamental need to every single human on our planet.

You know, and one thing I just wanna throw out there while I'm thinking about it, but you know, everything in life is about recruiting. Mm-hmm. So I used to throw out the NDSU Bison football team when I was working with different organizations. You think they have a hard time recruiting great players to their team? The responses were, "Oh no, Pat, they're national champions. They got great mentoring program, playbook, great coach," all that stuff. And it's like, "You're spot on. They got a very deep bench of great players who wanna play for their team." So my next question is, do people wanna play for your team? And if not, why? You just told me what that looked like. So I think when it comes to this apathy, that if we're not recruiting people to those important roles in their communities, really gotta take a look at the recruiting concept of it and are we— Are we having fun?

Yes. Are we enjoying it? Yeah. 'Cause otherwise we're not making a very pleasing sell, are we?

Opportunity to do outreach, education outreach, that's what makes things move. And what does that platform look like to recruit people to this? And it might be involving people that you don't think have any interest in it at all, but it's education outreach and you just never know that person, who they go talk to and all that other type of stuff, share that experience. And so to me, even looking at just the recruiting platform.

Yeah, okay, so let's see, are there any questions that the audience has? If you've got questions, get your hands up high so our runners can find you. Awesome. He understood the assignment and stuck his hand right up in the air.

So in the last session I was in, I believe it was a Watford City commissioner brought up this dynamic where back during the pandemic we had people moving from the metropolitan areas, you know, the people on the coast were coming to the flyover states, right? And one of the challenges— and they would come in and want to get involved with the communities heart was in the right place, but they came in and from their perspective, they just saw all kinds of dysfunction and they wanted to turn a small town in North Dakota into the place where they left.

Right.

And so that was kind of a, what are your comments on that type of challenge? How do you deal with that dynamic? How do you process those people and their desire? They want to help, but they want to turn your town into the place they left. So thank you for that.

I think the one thing I would say right off the bat is somebody has to take it upon themselves to sit down with that person. I mean, because again, this has to happen one-on-one for that, I think, to be meaningful or impactful. But I think it's sometimes we have to help people understand that the most important thing when they come into especially a smaller community is getting a sense of the waters that they're swimming in first, you know, and then talk to them about, okay, and maybe just help kind of dial back their expectations. What happens is that they come in with just like a bull in a china shop, right? And they're like, I wanna blow all this stuff up. It can create a lot of animosity and people have long memories. And then that person will have almost no hope of coming back in or they get, they feel so defeated they never come back. So I do think it takes somebody in the community to understand that we need to just sit down and talk to that person and say, hey, okay, love some of your ideas. What's the biggest thing? You know, maybe help, help 'em prioritize. But I think it has to be a one-on-one conversation. That's a, it's a huge challenge. Sometimes that's even with people returning. I'll, I'll be honest. I think I had a bit of that mindset when I first came back, like, but I've learned stuff, you know, I kind of came back like, I'm gonna fix things. I didn't fix a thing cuz actually nothing was broken. And it, it took some time for me to, I had to learn it and I didn't leave either. Right. That's my thoughts. We have to have—

I got a really good answer for you and Mary. I gotta serve on her chamber as the president. And I think I'm thinking of somebody specifically that represents what you're saying and all gung-ho, ready to get in, wants to get on the chamber, all that other stuff. But I'm going to be honest with you, we needed him to demonstrate that he was going to stay. He did end up— he's a great guy, did wonderful things and stuff, but he's not here anymore. Right. So to me, I think that, you know, you demonstrate that you're committed to this community and you're going to stay and then we'll talk. But you still have to find ways to get them involved. And we went on to do some just amazing things and we're still friends to this day.

Yeah, how can we plug you in, right?

Yeah. But I think I heard the governor, and so this may not be the perfect answer for you, but I think I heard the governor today use the words, we've got to lead with our curiosity. And we often use the question, ask the question. It's not the question that's analytical, that's about why can't we do this, but how might.

How might we?

How might we is a great phrase that we use all the time in the work. And so you might just have a conversation with them about, well, how might we do this and what might happen? And just dig in and have some conversations so that they at least feel heard and feel a part of something there. And hopefully you can co-create something together at some point. Yeah, get them involved in something.

Easier said than done. Yeah, get them involved in something in a way where maybe there's less resistance too, depending on what it is. Yeah, big picture.

Almost build their skillset for future opportunities. Yeah. And you demonstrate that you're committed and let's go.

Okay. Great question. Anybody else have a question? Go ahead, Mike.

Let me ask a question here. So if you're the leader, a board president, the executive director, and you've got an idea, how do you get other people on your board to come on board with you? How do you get people to buy into it? Anybody wanna either of you take that?

Yeah, so I guess I'll share. I have a framework that we're actually gonna offer as a takeaway here in a moment. But this framework is basically just how stuff happens, okay? How change happens, how we get results. And basically when we are coming at this work from an, an influence model versus we are trying to make changes and we get to control the behavior that's needed. You know, if you're trying to lose weight, you're the one that has to do the stuff. Like it's not anybody else's problem, right? But when we're changing the behav— when we're trying to influence people, we aren't in control of what they think and feel. And their thoughts turn into their beliefs and their beliefs turn into their actions and their actions are whether what drive our results, right? We're only responsible for how they interact with us or with the thing in question. And so that's, that's the only thing that we can actually change or tweak or turn. So with a board, if you're trying to say, okay, this is the thing I wanna do. I mean, what you could do is just sell it to 'em and say, well, let's just get on board. It's not going to work. So designing it, your ask, your presentation, everything to say, okay, what do they need to think and feel about this thing in order to say yes to this? And what might be the barriers in place? And then you can thoughtfully design it, cuz sometimes people need data, sometimes people need feels, sometimes people need a combination of those things, right? But we need to really get into the psychology of it and say, what does a person who would say yes to this thing need to actually think and feel and believe? And I know that sounds really complicated, but it's how humans work.

So I couldn't say it any better, and I can't say how you said that, but I feel exactly everything you said. Perfect. Perfect.

Well, there. And I want to say in another way of, if you're the leader, ask for some advice and ask for input. Oh, man, for sure. Right? And you're maybe taking all those things that you just mentioned into consideration in that advice, but that's how you help them feel like they had to say in.

Well, yeah, one of the challenges with, like, getting a board to agree to stuff is again, giving is personal, commitment to ideas is often personal. So I don't know, anybody else in their, you know, these communities have any problems with housing? I'm sure we all kind of do. Any of you have any board members that don't really think it seems like that big of a deal because they have a house, so they don't see the housing problem? I have seen that and faced that. So sometimes the people we're trying to get to say yes to something don't personally have that problem. We need to come at it from that understanding and get that there's a lot of education that has to happen for them to understand, A, that it's a problem, you know, B, that they should be excited to do something about it and that our solution might be a way to address it. So sometimes people just aren't problem aware.

They don't know what they don't know.

They don't know what they don't know. Okay, the last thing I wanna talk about before we wrap here, one of the things that came up in the feedback when I first asked you know, my social audiences, like, hey, what do you wanna, what do you wanna learn? They talked about how do we develop a mindset of abundance. Now, our governor talked about that a bit, which I was really surp— I mean, not surprised to hear, but I was like, what a great tie-in. The opposite of an abundant mindset is a scarcity mindset. I would also throw in with this, the opposite of a growth mindset is a fixed mindset. I do think sometimes these can be challenges, especially in our rural communities. What ideas, if any, do the two of you have to help move that needle? Or what kinds, you know, how do we have conversations to help people break out of that? And even if it's small shifts, 'cause sometimes that's the best we can do.

Well, a growth mindset, if it's a concept that I'm thinking of, is started by Carol Dweck, and she's talking about educational purposes. And the young kids who succeed are those who develop a growth mindset. Because they're not going to, they're never gonna say, I didn't do it, but they're gonna say—

Or I can't, they don't say I can't do it.

They are going to say, I'm not there yet.

Yet, yet, yet is the golden word in, with a growth mindset. A fixed mindset is, I can't do it, I don't have the skills to do it, I won't ever have the skills to do it.

Right, and so we just need to start thinking about what can't we do yet, rather than what can't we do and what is impossible to do. And so I think it's about leading by it, but also raising awareness of what a growth mindset is. That is all about. Hopefully, I think it's more common that our young people are getting a growth mindset today. I think that's true.

I'm almost certain it's true because it's in our public school system, just like mental health is in our public school systems in a very present way. So I sometimes think a lot of the times the adults, we're gonna hold our youth back. So these things are common to our students and not necessarily to the adults in the community.

Well, when it comes to the students, I don't treat them like high school students. I treat them as future leaders. That's one thing. And as we're talking about this, I had the privilege to go to the NDSU student welcome on Monday, and I met a few deans, some new teachers, and I said, why'd you say yes to North Dakota? And the dean of the Health and Human Services, she said, she's so visionary and she's got all these great big ideas and stuff like that. And she said that why she said yes to North Dakota is everybody said, let's do it. And so to me, it's just supporting that, you know, the abundance and just, you can dream it, you can do it. And I was really moved by that because I think our state as a, you know, in general stands for that. And it's, you know, how do we incorporate that mentality in our communities? And to even Riley's point, there's no boundaries for the things that we can do.

No boundaries. I think, you know, so scarcity mindsets is that belief that you don't have what you need. Yeah. And so sometimes I think we just have to say, well, what do we have? Especially when it comes to volunteers and people, who do we have in our communities? Okay, so the team wants to put the QR code up on the slide. We've put together a quick and easy— as soon as it shows up here. It's up. So this framework that I just kind of rapidly went through, we created a little slide deck to kind of walk you through. So you have a couple of options with this. We do ask that you would fill out this quick survey because it's gonna help us get a better handle on what you're seeing out in your communities. And then when you put your email in there, the only thing we're doing with that is we'll send you the video and then give you information on this cohort. So the cohort is something that Growing Small Towns, my organization, and Dakota Resources in South Dakota, we're putting on if we get enough interest. Again, here's another thing. Sometimes you gotta try stuff. You don't know if it's gonna work, but this will be a way for us to actually work through this model in real time between sessions. So it'll be 4 virtual sessions. Between sessions, you'll actually do some field work working based off of this model and we'll be supporting each other. You'll have accountability and you'll actually move this thing forward in your community. So if you have a, a really specific project, event, or board that you can't get anybody, to support you to be in, you may wanna take a look at this. And if not, if you're like, I want nothing to do with the cohort, say that in the comment, still put your email address in there and we'll send you the free video anyway, 'cause we want you to have, it's a DIY version, right? But we'll actually be using that model to work together. And ironically, we're opening the enrollment only to 10 people. We're gonna get beyond the 10 though, right? So with that, if you have any questions about that, grab me, grab Mike, We'd be happy to answer any questions, but I genuinely want to thank you. I want to thank you, Mike, coming all the way up from South Dakota. You all should check out Dakota Resources is another really great example of people that understand communities like ours. South Dakota and North Dakota have a lot of similarities. We should be linking arms a bit more.

Can I just jump in? You can. Yep. This is where I feel the reason— I mean, one of the reasons I'm here is like, we need to learn more from each other. Right. In South Dakota, we've started to say we got to stop trying to have each community get by by themselves. Right. We need to work together. North and South Dakota need each other. We need Minnesota rural leaders. We need Montana. We need to get together and learn from each other because there's nothing new. Yep. And we can learn faster together.

Together, for sure. Thank you, Mike. And thank you, Pat, for all the work that you do for North Dakota and for contributing your thoughts today. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank you for the invite. Yes. Thank you all. Enjoy the rest of the conference. ¡Gracias!