146. The Future of the Growing Small Towns Show with Brodie Mueller

Our guest on today's episode officially earns the top most listened to times as a guest. There's a better way to say that, but it's not coming to my brain. Brody Mueller comes back to the Growing Small Town Show, and I'm super excited about it. So what you're going to hear right away, in fact, as soon as we dovetail into the episode itself, you're going to hear an improvement in audio quality. Very, very excited to say that after 4 years of podcasting, we are getting a bit more official around these parts and we are investing in the audio setup that Brody outfitted. He has a podcast studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota. He's also a board member for Growing Small Towns, our nonprofit. And again, he's just a great, a great guy, great entrepreneur, great friend. And so we consulted with him to ask a few questions. Like, what should we get? What, what's like, like, what's, what's reasonable and not like way over the top, but better than this USB mic that I've used for these 4 years? I, I love it. You, you gotta surround yourself with people that like, they love you enough to say, dude, you've gotta level up. He called me after there was a particular episode where I actually didn't properly set my settings on my Yeti mic, and it really ended up pretty poor. It audio quality. And he was like, dude, you cannot. I'm like, I know, Brody, I know. So we finally— he came up, he brought his setup up, kind of showed me how it worked. And in short order, we purchased his equipment. We will link to those things that we use to record that episode just because I know a lot of you— some of you have aspirations to do something like this, and I think it's always helpful. But we also talk about the future of the show, and we kind of— there's just a lot of riffing. But Brody is— he's always a really good time, really smart guy., and we're really grateful to have him in our court. I really do encourage you though to listen to this episode because what we're reimagining with the show and with the podcast is actually having a few more kind of specific content buckets as we, as we think about our recordings. And we throw out a few ideas on this episode, like what we think might be cool, but what we here at Growing Small Towns actually care about is what you guys would think is cool. So as you listen to this, if you hear us, like, you'll hear our enthusiasm for our ideas because that's just how we present things. But if you listen and you're like, oh, that'd be amazing, whenever, actually, if it's in the moment, send us a message and let us know that that's what you want to see. Or I should say hear, right? You're going to be hearing it. Or if you hear it and you're like, that's a horse crap idea, like, don't do that. Please let us know. This is absolutely the episode where we are solely looking for your feedback because this podcast— so far our metrics are that we've reached 48 states. We are still waiting on a listener from Vermont and Nevada. So if you know people there, let us know. And then 30 countries around the world. So this is a medium that matters. We love this show. We love doing the show, but we want to engage with you, our, our audience, just a bit more. And so here are a few ideas that we think might be cool. Ultimately, this is for you. So, uh, without further ado, enjoy this just winding and lovely conversation with our buddy Brody Mueller. Well, welcome, Brody Mueller. Thank you to the Growing Small Town Show.

Not first time, but long time.

That's right, long time. Love you long time, Brody Mueller. And you've— this again, I always joke, I think the max that I've ever had anybody on our show is 3 times. You're more than a 3-peat.

Am I?

Yeah, well, because we, we recorded a couple of things, some crossover episodes before, and then we did a catch-up, like a status check, remember?

That's right, yep.

So this makes you my first 4.

There we go.

Repeat.

One more and then I get the 5.

The 5-time.

And then I get the jacket and there's a lounge, right?

There's 100%.

Have you ever seen those?

Yes, yes, I actually, the last time I have my 2 friends that were 3-peats, we made the whole joke about having, having jackets, but no, 5-time. Yep, the 5-timers club.

It'll be lonely in there for a while, but I feel like it'll— I'll make it work.

Maybe we design it as your own little like self-care safe haven, just you and your jacket hanging out. Your emblem can keep you company.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, love it.

Well, I'm up here in Oaks today, so you're not, uh, you're not in Aberdeen, but I'm up here in the great city of Oak, South Dakota.

Or—

oh, sorry. Oaks, North Dakota is where we are. Home of the cyclones, I think. Is that— are you the tornadoes?

Oh my God, this is so great.

Like, I just saw it on the sign when I—

cyclones. It is the tornadoes.

It is the tornadoes.

Okay, cyclones is close.

I mean, tornadoes would have been a little bit of a dumb name. It's a sister story, but the cyclones make sense. Okay.

Oh my God.

Uh, no, so we're talking about podcasting, the future of Growing Small Towns, and the show. And the show. I've, uh, done a couple podcasts of my own, none of which you can find out there in the world anymore. More.

But, um, but you've got the best voice.

I have a voice. I'm no, uh, James Earl Jones, you know, rest in peace. But it's, uh, I like it. So I, I actually went to— my wife laughs that I'm the only person who went to school to be a DJ because like I did an internship in high school at, for those Minnesota fans, KDWB 101.3. KDWB. And it was like, well, it was in the same— I did it at Cities 97, which was like the mom rock version. You know, it's a lot of Tracy Chapman and stuff like that. Um, Duncan Sheik. Yeah, I hated that song then and I hate the COVID now.

I can't even believe that I just sang that because I hate that song. Um, oh fun. I actually though, I have some follow-up questions, sir. Um, just primarily just one, just one. What was your DJ name?

So, so I know I was an intern, so I never got anywhere near the microphone.

What did you want it to be? Come on, you went to be a DJ.

I mean, with a name like Brody, it kind of sells itself. But I mean, the— who is the lead? I suppose they're all like really simple names. Back in Aberdeen, there's a DJ named, um, Adam St. Paul, but that's not his name. It's Adam Sprinkler or something like that, but it just doesn't roll off the tongue. So I don't know, I never thought about what my DJ—

God, I can't believe— I feel like you missed an opportunity here.

Well, there's a difference between like DJ and like drive time. Here's Tracy Chapman for the third Here's Teddy Swims for the fifth time today.

You wanted to be the latter or the former?

Not the latter.

You didn't want to be like, no, spinning some—

I don't need to wedding dance, drop any beats. I just wanted to talk on the radio. So little did I know I was like just 5 years ahead of my time because now we're in the golden age of podcasting and anybody can come and do this. So, no, and you still don't know how many people are listening.

You know what's crazy about it? Can we talk about that for a second? So I think Um, I think I just shared with you that like statistically our show, this show is in the top 25% just in terms of, uh, podcasts.

It's crazy.

It is crazy. But it's only because like I didn't quit.

Yeah.

I mean, we just haven't quit. And I, again, like the goal in 2025 is to get like a proper cadence. Mm-hmm. You know, we're, again, we kind of talked about getting the, getting the content sponsored, like getting some support. Because this, of all— it's crazy, right? Like, been doing this for over 4 years, started Growing Small Towns kind of after, after it. It used to be called the Big— the Big, uh, a Small, Small Town Big Talk show is what it was called, like, when we first did it, because it wasn't connected to this mission. Um, but what's kind of insane about it is just like, it's— of all the things that I've done, of all the places I've been, whether speaking, consulting, kind of you name it. I think the podcast is one of the things that people— like, I get the most random reach-outs from listeners based on it, right? And again, sometimes it's just me doing this by myself. Sometimes it's fun and I get to actually have good banter with somebody.

Which I commend you for doing it by yourself, because I can't— I don't understand the people who can do that, just like talk to an empty room. Do you have somebody there that you're talking to, or you're just like—

No.

Just you?

You know what it is, Brody? Um, it's many, many years of pent-up inner dialogue that didn't have anywhere to go, and now I'm just like, I got a podcast. So it is— it's weird because this, this last episode was like 47 minutes and that was just me.

Yeah.

And I looked back and I'm like, oh my goodness, like, no wonder my teachers are always like, you talk too much. I'm just like, do I though? Because here I am, you know, doing this thing. So anyway, it's cool and we're really excited to make some of these big kind of shifts in podcasting. But I think, um, I have met a lot of people that are like, oh, I want to do a podcast, and I'm sure you have as well because you have— do you still operate and run the Pheasant Canteen?

Yeah, I do. So we used to run Shrinkwrap out of there, which was a kind of irreverent mental health podcast. We did that for 4 years. Right now there is a Northeast South Dakota High School Sports Podcast, um, the South Dakota Sports Scene Podcast. He's got a whole website and the whole deal, and then the podcast is kind of supplementary for him. So he, he does that every week with player interviews and stuff like that. Cool. Um, my best friend from high school lives in Minnesota, and he runs the, um, the metro area youth Ultimate Frisbee program, or helps to run it. So are you familiar with Ultimate Frisbee?

Um, what makes it ultimate? It—

that it's like soccer but with frisbee.

Okay. Nope, never seen it.

Yeah, so it's like soccer and football because there's an end zone. There's not a net, but you're really—

but yeah, I've never seen this.

You got a frisbee.

I mean, I've heard the phrase disc Yeah, I've heard the phrase Ultimate Frisbee, but I didn't ever ask any follow-up questions there.

So yeah, we graduated in 2000. Well, he was 2004, I was 2003, and he helped to start the program in Apple Valley, Minnesota.

Cool.

And it is since then, the Minnesota Ultimate scene has really exploded. So anyway, he and another coach do just for that season. So it's like the April and May, it's a short season, but they'll do a weekly podcast and I edit that as well. They record that on Zoom and then I just edit it.

Cool.

But yeah, I've had people reach out about, um, I had a woman talk yesterday about doing an audiobook. Yeah, which the studio can handle. So it's, yeah, all these— having a recording studio is kind of a little—

it's—

there's little things that you can use it for that are nice. I mean, just cutting radio ads, right? You can do it on your phone, but it sounds a little bit better if you do it.

Yeah, yeah. I'm actually— I'm just so— so, so everybody understands, we're, we're recording this on your equipment. You brought it up here. Um, but this is basically what we're hoping replicate, um, here in Oaks. And so we will have a podcast studio here soon at our building at Growing Small Towns. So it's kind of exciting because again, I think for me, a lot of it has just been, and, and you can speak to this as you want as well. Um, even though we were a nonprofit and it would seem as though like the trajectory for success, air quotes, for a nonprofit is like somehow more linear or straighter or easier. It's not, it's a startup. And so you say yes to lots of things, or at least I did and I do. And as you go and you figure out— for me, it's this beautiful mix, right, of like where we can help, or in a for-profit's case, it's like, you know, what we want to do, what we want to make, what we want to serve, what we want to offer, what I really like and what brings me joy. And then hopefully another little concentric circle is where we can make money. Now, nonprofit's a little bit different, right, because it's not about making money, but you still have to actually pay people to do the work and there's still costs involved.

That's what people don't realize about podcasting. I had a woman reach out who wanted to do another mental health podcast, but she was really scared and she goes, okay, so how do I make money? And I said, you don't. You do it for 4 years and then you—

and then you go, maybe this is something, right?

Yeah. I think locally there's probably a lot more opportunities for it and a lot more opportunities to try something for 2 months, right? So maybe it's the coffee shop across the street, if you come in there and tell them Growing Small Towns sent you, you get 10% off. And then they track those codes to know how effective their commercial on the podcast is.

Yeah.

So I think there's a lot more value for that.

All I'll say with that too, if you do, if you do really kind of hyper-localized stuff, and I think we talked about this once, like it doesn't have to be that they pay you ahead, right? Maybe they pay you on the back end, right? If you run this kind of, and again, if you're, you're I think the other thing is try— it's called trial and error for a reason. Like, try it. If you get people that are willing to try it with you, there's no one perfect way to do this. And I think that's one of the challenging things about podcasts is even the metrics of success. It's like you're going up against like Dax Shepard and The Armchair Expert. We're not— I'm not that. We're never going to be that. Our audience isn't even big enough, right? Like, it's— but that's not the only measurement of success. Yeah, it is just raw downloads.

Yeah.

Um, and also anything that you look on the internet in terms of like how to get sponsorship for a podcast and what that looks like, it's all based on, on things that don't feel relevant, right, to a smaller, you know, so a scrappier podcast.

Break it down for people so they understand. It's, it— when you get to a place like Joe Rogan or Smartless or Dax Shepard, they're talking thousands of downloads per episode.

Tens of thousands.

And but that's only downloads. So here's, here's the PSA, people. If you have a podcast that you like and want to support, not only share and subscribe it, but download the episode. You can, you can undownload it or delete it immediately, but the downloads are the metrics that we can see. Just like we can't tell how many people are watching, um, the rerun of Big Bang Theory that's on right now. We, we can't tell how many people are just streaming this.

And it's exactly—

I don't know if the tech doesn't exist or what, but we just can't. So if you have a podcast you would like to support, like, share it, subscribe it to it so that you get the notifications, review it, and then just turn on your auto download. And if size becomes an issue, I think you can set it to where like after a month it drops off or whatever.

I think that's really solid advice because that's just it. Like, I know that I, I stream most of the podcasts I listen to. I don't download every episode. And so yeah, it's really hard to get accuracy.

Yeah.

Um, and so I think what I said to you is like, I, I— the story that I'll be telling a potential national funder is like, I get dozens of people that just email me directly and say, I listened to this episode and here's what happened.

Yeah.

And that's special, and that matters to me because that's actual engagement. Exactly. It's real humans, right? And now you're one of my— you're one of my people.

Yeah.

And that is— there's, there's nothing like it. I think it's so, so special, and I'm not sick of it. I think that's the other big thing.

Yeah.

You know, just to get our message out in this idea that I think conversation, really good enriching conversation, it can spark ideas, it can make people feel less alone. It can do all sorts of things. It's just conversation.

Have you ever had that phenomenon? You must listen to a lot of podcasts.

I do. Yep.

Don't you hate it when it's maybe the middle of the week or like Thursday and you're like, I don't have any new podcasts to listen to. Like, I've already binged everything.

I do.

At a certain point, you're mowing your lawn and so you go through the back catalog of everything that you've— of the shows you like. And then now it comes to a day in the week and you're like, well, what the hell am I going to listen to?

Right? I know, I literally, I just, I have audiobooks kind of on, on, on the back burner.

I don't, I can't balance all of it.

It's tough. Yeah, it's tough.

I prefer a podcast because it's like bite-sized and it's like a little consumable thing and you can, if you don't finish it, it's no big deal. But on an audiobook, you got to remember previously on the audiobook you're listening to and then figure You can't drop it either.

It is so challenging. Yeah, I know. I totally agree. So it's kind of exciting. I'm— it's going to be kind of a new era for the podcast, for the show, but I think we're ready for it. And this, this equipment, as sexy as it looks, it was relatively easy to set up. And I've been watching you, and again, I say this to people, I think, you know, audio, it— the quality of your audio is super important. And I've definitely had challenges, which we've talked about. I love it, by the way. Brody's the friend that's like, Rebecca, you got to do something. I'm like, I know, I know. But now he's here until I'm like, you come and help me. Yes, we'll fix it. And now we're gonna fix it. It's gonna be great. Um, but I also don't want that to deter people from like getting started if you really want to do a podcast.

Well, yeah. And, and that being said, I mean, if, if you want to do it and you don't have a place to do it at, I think 2020 taught us that the age of sterile podcasting is over.

Yep.

Um, this, this the era of scripted podcasts is, is at least coming to an end, right? If you think about it, like before 2020, we had things like Serial and—

oh God, I love—

remember Serial?

I loved it.

I know, and we all loved it, but it was because it was like Dateline but on a, on the, on a podcast.

It was a bingeable thing.

Yeah. Or like Dr. Death. Remember the first season of Dr. Death?

So good too.

Um, but now it's—

listen, friends, if you haven't listened to these things somehow, if you haven't, or S-Town which was the second one of Serial, right? Or like same, same production team. Oh, such good.

And that is a very different thing than what the normal person, what an everyday person can do.

Totally.

Um, so there are USB mics that you can get and, um, and they just plug right in your computer and they're pretty good. The other thing, if you really want to just— I had a woman, I— she's like, I, I don't know, I'm really scared to do it. Like she was terrified to put herself out there and What I tell people is getting here is harder than being here, right? This is just a conversation. That's all it is. So especially if you want to start like a solo type podcast or you just have things to say, just pick up your iPhone. Like, your, your phone is so freaking powerful these days. Um, I do all of our social media for and video content for our, uh, our local county fair. I do it all on my phone, right? I don't have anything.

It doesn't have to be more complicated.

It doesn't have to be more complicated. So go to your voice memos and just, just start. Right? It's doing the reps. So when it comes to your success and longevity, you put in the reps, right? I've heard the stat like you got to get 9 episodes under your belt, and then you're like, okay, either I love this and I'm gonna continue to do it, or I'm gonna pivot a little bit and keep doing it, or you know what, it's not for me, right? And all 3 of those things are great, but you got to put in the reps and you got to practice it to, to do it. And with, with, uh, Shrinkwrap, I think the first 4 episodes we re-recorded So really, 4 hours of work, we edited it, the whole thing. They slept on it, they're like, nope, I don't like it, we're gonna do it again. But you just, you just learn what it's like to be in the studio and how you're— what feels good, what feels good, and what your banter is going to be like, right?

Right. So it's— so I think what would be kind of fun, and I didn't tell you this, I'm just telling you this on the fly, so here we go.

Oh no, what am I gonna do?

I think it would be kind of fun to tease out some of the things that we've talked about, like in terms of structure and content for the podcast. And then I'm literally going to say on the record that I am open to hearing from our audience with this. Like, if there's certain things that would really help you, because again, we've got listeners, like the people that listen to the show, it's awesome. And I care what they think, and I care what would make their lives better. So this is an open forum, people. As you listen to this episode and you're like, I know what she should do, I know what I would love to hear, send us a note because I want to know. We're going to be— not again, it's not full, a full revamp, revamp all the way around. Yeah, we're still going to keep kind of the primary content, the thing, because it is, it's working and it's great.

Yeah.

One of the things you— why don't you share what you brought up?

Okay.

I love this because so, Brody, you know, you'll be taking over kind of the editing of the podcast, which is fantastic. And you're local and you're my friend and you're a board member for Growing Small Towns.

That is true.

You're kind of You kind of have to care about all this.

Triple dipping at that point.

You are, you totally are, and I love it. I'm here for it. Um, so right away, it's like your brain immediately starts thinking content, which I love. So you had an idea.

Okay, so I— what I— the podcast that I consume, um, and even the radio. So I grew up on talk radio. Uh, my dad listened to NPR, listened to Dave Ramsey, you know, that, that type of stuff. When I became probably 30, 35— and there's a South Park episode where Stan wakes up all the music that is on the radio sounds like people just farting into a microphone. And the moral of the story at the end is you're just getting older and everything sounds like shit.

That's hilarious.

It's so true.

We can find that episode, tease that out in the show notes.

And so I, I realized I didn't want to listen to the radio anymore, and you kind of get sick of your own music from the 2010s. And so, um, I started— well, and NPR, you can only do so much of it I feel like, or you want something else. So I grew up Protestant. Um, I listened to Catholic radio.

Are you serious?

I do. Not like religiously, but it is because the appropriate pun, because it's all call-ins.

Okay.

And the call-in aspect I think is, is lost on us.

Yes. And it's fun.

And it's fun. So say what you will about Dave Ramsey, and I don't subscribe to everything, and he has certainly gone hard leaning in certain directions lately. Um, There's a whole episode I could do on the where Dave Ramsey is going and why the hell he's going there.

But what's going on with Dave Ramsey?

So angry these days.

Is that our title?

What is happening? Is Dave Ramsey okay?

Blink twice, Dave.

So, but I'll listen to his show as well just because, I mean, I can— I've been listening for years now, so I can tell what they're gonna say. Um, but anyway, there's another podcast from that team, The John Delony Show, which is like mental health stuff. And so part of it is like like, ooh, tell me the tea. Your husband cheated on you and you don't know what to do? Yes, tell me everything. But then, but it's still that call-in show. Anyway, all of, now that if you're still here, listeners, I think that would be the call-in aspect would be great for, for you. So the way that I would envision it to work is if you have, it's a small business question, it's I live in a small town and don't know what to do with all of this pent-up energy. I see this need but don't know what to do, and you want to talk it through with you or with a roundtable of people, then it's just setting up a call. We record that call. We can edit it. You have, you know, the caller would have editorial power as well, as much as you want to give them. And then once a month we put out an episode that's a call-in and you get, you know, 20 minutes with each person or whatever. I think it would be a really fun way. Everyone's looking for engagement, right? I was just, when I left the store this morning, we were just talking about how your damn Facebook doesn't work anymore, you know. How do you get engagement from, from Facebook and people? So if you already have a group of people who are listening, right, um, and everyone likes talking about their business or their small— I mean, this is— no one wants— not many people want to come on the radio and talk about their porn addiction or how they cheated on their wife or whatever, this big mental health stuff, right? I do want to talk about the exciting things that are happening in, in Anytown, USA, where I'm from.

Yeah.

So I think it's an easier lift for people to just— and, and it's just on the phone or it's on Zoom or whatever. Um, so the stakes are pretty low, but I, I think that could be a really cool opportunity for you.

I kind of love that. I kind of love that. And again, it's like, it's, it's literally getting permission from the people because some of the stuff that people want to call in about, of course, is, is maybe sensitive because they don't want their community to know that it's them. Yeah, I suppose that's a real, that's a real thing. I was even just thinking about all of these people that I said that, that have actually reached out, and then we end up doing some sort of a Zoom call or whatever. A lot of those could be episodes.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I, and I don't— it was funny because at our board retreat where my amazing board of directors, you know, just literally having a conversation of like, what do we do? What is this organization about? How do we help communities grow? And again, we, we'll get into kind of the details of the shift that's coming. And it's not exactly a shift. It's really like a return to the roots of this thing, which I think is really important. But one of the questions was just like, you know, are you okay with getting all of these random questions, like when people email you? And I was like, it literally gives me life. So yes. Yeah. And I don't ever want that to stop being a thing because I— when people listen to this, if they like what they hear, they hear a friend. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

They hear with my voice, they hear somebody that actually cares about them. And I do. And so I can't suddenly be like, up until you decide to email me with your questions. Like, I'm your friend, but don't ask me to help you, right? I love it. So I think, I think that could be really, really fun.

And on the flip side, I mean, as you're a, you're a content creator for all intents and purposes, I mean, totally, it can get draining to what am I going to talk about this week, you know? And so, and especially if you're— I'm sure you're much more organized than I was and not, uh, going week to week. And you certainly have a 6-week, uh, buffer there just waiting for things.

We were not buffed in any way. There's no buffer.

So I mean, for you as the audience to solicit feedback and volunteer to, hey, yeah, I'd have this conversation. And it— the other thing to know about podcasts is it's not live. This is not on air, right? Right. We could, we could scrap this entire thing after we're done. So, but just the act of recording it, and then it can be used for content, and then you as the, as the guest or whatever can use it for your content as well. I was on this podcast This is what we talked about. Hey, Anytown, USA, here are some of my ideas, and you share the show and put it out there. And then it's two birds with— in the bush or whatever. Yeah, you're getting two birds stoned at the same time.

Something's happening with birds and stones and bushes. We don't know. I— but what I will say too is I can't actually tell you the number of times I have thought to myself, I wish that we had recorded that conversation. You know, sometimes you just have really— and again, that's not a— that's not something that's gonna happen all the time. But I think being thoughtful about that, and then like you said, deciding when you get done, how'd you feel about that? I say that with every guest that comes on anyway. Like, if there's something you say that you're just like, ugh, you can stop in the moment and be like, can we edit that out? And most of the time we don't. I mean, most of the time our conversations are just natural like this, right? But I want people to always know that I would never, ever want to produce something that you were truly uncomfortable with or unhappy about. So the editorial— Rights, I think, is kind of an important aspect of that.

So my pie-in-the-sky ideas aside, what else do you have? What are your— what keeps you up at night of where you want to take this beast?

The podcast itself? Yeah. Okay. So there's a couple of things. One of the things is that this past election has been a really challenging time.

Is that right? Has it?

A little bit. Just a little bit. You and I just jammed for like an hour, which I said, I looked at you and I was like, can you imagine if we had recorded? We'd be like pitchforks. Mark's coming after me. It's honestly less about who won, who didn't win. I mean, it's less about that, but it's more about having, I think, creating a safe environment to kind of bring up some of these— social justice is kind of the only bucket I can think to call them. I don't know if there's a better phrase. But just some of the things that, from a humanity perspective, can get really, really challenging. OK, so this— I'll even use an example of something that I think is very, very real for small communities. And yet it seems like a little dicey to talk— I guess I would call them the dicey topics, maybe, right? So Cassidy, our marketing gal, and I were having a Voxer conversation yesterday about supporting small business. We just did a post about why it's so important, right? And then I said to her, but it shouldn't necessarily be blanket support. And what I mean by that, so like as a small business owner, you're like, what are you talking about? There was almost as daggers as Brody Mueller's eyes.

No, I'm just curious.

No. So my point is simply you're not entitled to our business just because you opened a business and you're in your community like you, you actually do have to be better than Amazon or whoever you're competing against, right? So what we can— we just— is it okay if we just like center this around you. Sure. So in Aberdeen, South Dakota, you've got the Market on the Plaza. Amazing place. We should actually do this because we want people to frequent your business. And, you know, like, we'll just focus on one aspect of your business, which is coffee, right? You literally just said how many shops have opened since you opened Market on the Plaza?

10.

10. And most of them or all of them are chains, correct? Right. So the city of Aberdeen has 3 Caribou Coffees. I mean, that's worth noting in this conversation. So not only does your product have to be at least as good, what people experience when they come into your store has to be better.

Yeah.

It has to be better. Like, because there's also a consistency that often comes with national chains that's hard to match from a local perspective. Like, there's a lot of things that are hard to match. You guys can win on environment, you can win on, uh, truly on customer service. And so when I say that, I want to, I wanna be a voice of of elevating those aspects that you actually can stand out. Because you can. It's true. You can outdo Caribou Coffee when it comes to customer service. I know you can. Yeah. And you do, frankly. Right? So those kinds of things, right? So it may not be that they're necessarily social justice topics, but they're the kinds of things that are hard to say and are sometimes the hard truths that we need to be willing to look for. Another example is like everybody's having a workforce, like workforce is such a challenge, right? Like getting people to come and work for you. I literally have said this in other towns, by the way. I've never said these words just out loud in Oakes, North Dakota, because I don't— it's— I never want to offend, right? But I also think there's something really important about being able to say out loud what either an issue is or be willing to say the thing that needs to be addressed. Because it doesn't get addressed if we don't say it out loud, right? So sometimes I think when everyone's like, nobody wants to work anymore— I can't tell you how often I've heard that. Yeah, in the past 18 months, 2 years. And I just want to look at them and say, like, is that really it, or do you suck to work for?

Mm.

You know, because I— it's—

as the boss, you're the problem. Yeah, it starts with you.

And I hate— I mean, and sometimes it's not that simple, and I understand that. But let's make sure that we're not looking for something outside of us to blame before we've looked inside and done everything that we can to, to, to, and within our abilities, right?

Yeah.

So I think it would be cool to have maybe like a series of podcasts, you know, getting a sponsor just to help us kind of, because I think the thing too is there are national companies that their primary stakeholders are people like us that live in rural places. And so it's simply asking the question of what do you want? If you could impart anything to small communities and give people something in their brains and in their hearts that would have them move differently day to day, what would it be? And what could our role be in bringing some of those topics to light? Because I'm so down with getting into the stuff that nobody wants to talk about. Because to me, if everybody's feeling it, then let's just talk about it.

Right.

So that's one thought.

I like it.

How does it hit your brain as a small business owner?

It's, it's cool. I mean, I think you, you're evolving or you're dying, right? So to—

that's our take. Yep, for sure.

To be able to, I guess, have the space to, as an owner, to be able to have the space to say, nope, this is my fault. You know, it's— I think we like to look outside of ourselves. And just like no one wants to work anymore, I have— most of my staff has been there since day one, um, and they're, they're phenomenal people.

So it's—

they're phenomenal. They're phenomenal women and they do a fantastic job and they, they really give a shit, like they care.

Yeah. So can we talk real quick too? Because you also have young people, you have, you have Gen Z's working for you, right? And so there's also this, I think to me it's always where is the opportunity to either learn, grow, and try something different? Because it is so easy to dismiss out of hand that this youngest generation doesn't want to work anymore and they don't have a work ethic and they don't care about anything and they're entitled These are things that I've heard. Yeah, said, and I'm like, well, that's a sweeping generalization that's gonna literally shoot you in the foot.

But what did they say about us, you know, 20, 20 years ago? Exactly, 35 years ago. Like, it's, you know, I got— yeah, I have 16 and 17-year-olds working for me, and sometimes I don't understand half of the things they say, but they have— we can have fun with it though. And, and, and that's why when I, when I hire, it's a vibe check. I can teach any monkey to pull a shot of espresso.

The technical skills. Yeah.

But I need you to be able to have a conversation, to look me in the eye, to have some customer service. Those things are a lot harder to teach. So if you come in and we just have fun in the interview, that speaks volumes to me more than I've worked in 3 coffee shops.

Spoken like a true 7. Yeah.

I'd rather you not ever work in coffee before.

Yeah.

And want to work here than, than the opposite.

Yeah. And so, so there's— those are things to learn. I mean, those are things to pick up. Those are things to challenge ourselves to do and to consider. I think too, with small towns, there's a lot of people that at some point along the way butt heads with an elected official, you know, or a board member of some sort, right? And those are just people problems, Brody. And that's really what my career has been in, is helping people solve their people challenges. Like, within the context of an organization, it's really not that different. I mean, I mean, if you're in a community trying to get something done, you're going to— guess what? You're going to run into people. And then the hardest thing about small towns, I mean, and again, small is a very relative term, right? Because I think this is even true for you in Aberdeen with like, what, 27-ish thousand people? And here we are in a town of 1,800. You're going to see that person again.

Yeah.

Like you—

and bad gas travels fast in a small town.

Goddamn. Yeah. And you know, this idea of like burning bridges and just burn it down. Well, you go right ahead. But good luck to you.

I know. That's where my brother, even in our big little town, my brother's like, yep, screw them, burn it down. Like, no, I have to work with these people next month. Like, there's got to be a better way here.

Well, and there's, so there's, there's something to be said about that in terms of, I think the work then is protecting yourself, having strong boundaries, like some of these things that sound very like mental health specific, but really they're just, if you're going to run a business Yes. How, how do you deal with that? How do you deal with the fallout of really pursuing what you want, knowing that it might alienate certain people in your community? At what point is your business the customer's business and not your business? Like, those are all really challenging things. Like, what do we decide to do? So many people say, well, let the customers decide, let the customers decide. And I say, yeah, and there's a balance where if you hate it, yeah, it's your life, man. It's your life, it's your business. And those customers aren't taking that weight home with them.

Which hill are you gonna die on?

Yeah, right. I mean, these are— and so some of that, I just think, um, I would, I would really love to get more into some of those topics. Yeah, as we go. Um, and along with that, the other thing that, um, we've kind of talked about— and this, so this is kind of fun, right? I am, I'm a 7 just like you in the Enneagram. And oftentimes when I get done speaking somewhere, people like, people will come up to me and say, could you just like come and talk to me every morning. You know, could you just like come and give me the pep talk? And I kind of chuckle, right? And I'm just like, oh, you'd tire real fast, I promise. Like, you may think it's a good idea. You don't, you don't want me in your ear every day.

I smell a TikTok channel.

Oh my, oh my. Not sure. We'll see.

That wasn't a no. Yeah.

Well, let me just, let me just say, so I, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm on TikTok, but I don't make TikToks, right? I'm just completely a consumer. But recently my son, my oldest son has Instagram and he was standing in our kitchen. This was just last week or the week before. And he goes, "Mom," like that. He had this like fearful sound in his voice and he turns his phone out to me and somebody had taken my photographs and set up a fake account with it. Oh. Yeah, so this just happened on Instagram. And so it's my picture, right? It's my picture, my face and my name only with an extra A in it.

Of course.

So it was Rebecca, uh, right? And it said like, click here. And it was about pointing them to their OnlyFlirts account. And my son is like, he was like questioning for a second 'cause it was very clearly my face. I'm like, oh honey, no. Like, so I, I took a snapshot of it 'cause they of course had blocked me, you know? And then I just posted it right on my page. I'm like, yep, that's me. That's my face. That's my photo. This is not my account. Like, please block 'em. And, and then they go away, right? It's people are, people are bored. So I do have a little bit of hesitation to do something as wild and crazy maybe as TikTok channel. But I think it could— there could be some fun content.

I mean, it doesn't— we're in like the 30-second world now. So I know I created a video for— we have Collective Soul coming to the Brown County Fair. It's like, I love Collective Soul. I know, I know.

I'm going to have to come.

Some people are like, wait, I know that name. But then you hear the songs and you're like, oh, I totally know Collective Soul. Anyway, so we made this big, like, creative video. And then the bigwigs in New York or L.A. or whatever, they're like, no, You need to— like, all of the banter, all of that needs to go. Just say Collective Soul is coming. It was 2 minutes long. They're like, it's way too long. Like, we barely had time to get the sponsor's names in here, and then 30 minutes— 30 seconds of it is your sizzle reel. So I mean, we're— I think to have you show up and— there, there was a guy on TikTok who started, uh, he got married and it doesn't do it anymore, but, um, he would give motivational speeches, but it's, good morning, you bad beautiful bitch.

Yeah. Oh yes, I have.

You could do that, just the small town version.

I know. So that's another thing, it's just, it wouldn't be maybe daily. Sure. But like, how often do we need a hit of like inspiration? I've also said to you, like the fact that I'm actively in therapy and kind of just have been.

Yeah.

Um, and then I always say like, well, I paid for it and I'll share it so you don't have to pay for it.

There you go.

Like share the best of what's working for me.

Yeah, I think the TikTok channel is the way to go.

Okay, well, now we'll see. We'll let people weigh in. They can tell us. So yeah, so it's not necessarily all new, but I really want to get us into a regular cadence because I haven't been as consistent, at least in production, as possible. And it's just because I haven't felt as supported in a lot of ways. You know, it's— you have to make choices. Like, what is our thing? And this show will continue to be a thing. I'm just not ready to give it up.

Yeah. Well, you got to have your cup full before you can— and you can pour it out, right?

Right. Oh, and the other thing I should, should mention, what we, we're really talking about is what would it look like to pick maybe 4 locations across the country where we would come and do a live show. And I think if, if people listening to this are like, oh my gosh, we want you to come to our town, then let's talk about that and what it would look like, you know. And then because we have a beautiful space here, I would love to be kind of the, the reciprocal of that and host other shows that really focus— there's There's not a lot of shows, to my knowledge anyway, that really focus on rural issues. That's partly why I think our tenure has helped us out here because there's not a lot of people. It's crazy, Brody. I mean, at the end of the day, I literally often name the podcast episodes like this situation in small towns because it's like we're humans. We're just out here humaning. We just happen to be in a small environment and it does sometimes require a little right bite-sizing. Yeah, of topics to make them relevant and make them fit. Um, and that's what we're committed to doing is just saying like, yeah, you're just a human, just like people in New York City, right? But how it looks and how it lands, it's not exactly the same.

Yeah.

And so it's just making sure that we're kind of adapting or changing or tweaking the content so that it fits. So that's something else people can write me, write me and tell me.

So where should they find you, Rebecca? Drop your, drop your socials.

Yeah.

Well, how do they slide into your DMs?

Slide into my DMs on, well, Well, so we're on Growing— it's Growing Small Towns. That's the handle on Instagram and Facebook. And then growingsmalltowns.org. And you can just email me directly at director@growingsmalltowns.org. We're just totally willing. And then we have a, we have a like a contact us, you can go through the website too, if you'd rather. But yeah, I, we just, I get all sorts of, I mean, a lot of it is spam too.

Sure.

Any more people try to tell me like, we're going to get your followers to blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't care. I don't care. I'm not looking for like vanity metrics. I really want relationships. I mean, and that's, that's what we're about.

Are you having trouble with spam calls lately?

Tons. Oh, it's absolutely nonstop.

It's the worst. I don't need my, my debt refinanced. I've paid my taxes. I don't need to talk to you.

Right.

But it doesn't matter how many lists you put yourself on of no, go away, don't talk to me again.

I know. Well, can I tell you what's crazy is that there have been a few older people in our community that are getting, that are actually getting truly scammed. Like, like, they're these— I mean, the scammers, it's just like, if you would put that energy towards productive, being a productive member of society, oh my God, you've clearly got skills, right? Because they're, they're mimicking things that feel so real to these people. They just really— they legitimately don't— it doesn't occur to them that it's not. And they get deep enough, some of them have lost money, some of them just, they just feel really stupid. I just hate people sometimes. I'm like, I love people and I I just really hate people.

This is why we can't have nice things.

It's 100% true. Yeah, it's 100% true, except this is nice things. All of this equipment is super nice and I'm super stoked about it. I appreciate you so much. It's so fun to have somebody like you that has the talent. And like, I would have come and done every episode in Aberdeen. It's just, that's not feasible. And so many of the people that I have on the show don't come to me physically.

Yeah, exactly. And so I think, you know, if you're interested in a podcast, it's— the world is so small now. We are so well connected that, um, the Ultimate Podcast, that the Ultimate Frisbee Podcast, they record that on Zoom and then they send it to me. So it's, it's not a big deal. Mics do matter, but you can certainly get started really, really easily.

Yep.

And, you know, on the, the sort of the loneliness, or we especially as owners, we get out here and we're doing the thing and you're grinding, and then you look up and you feel like you're all alone and feel like all of these problems are, are your own. Alone, you know. And so I think that that's why it's really important for a show like this, that it can be that boost of, okay, nope, other people are dealing with that too. I'm not just an idiot, because that's where I go to, is I suck at this so badly that I'm, I'm gonna screw this whole thing up because I can't figure this out. Well, there's lots of other people who are dealing with that too.

And there's two things I want to say to that, and I've like, literally, this is part of when I— sometimes when I get asked to speak in a small town, I just— there's like about 10 love notes that I give to people. It's like the people that are trying to do cool stuff, which I would absolutely consider a business owner to be. That one is just to not mistake being new with being sucky at something. Like, like, if you're, if you're bumping up against something that you've never done before, why, why do we have this expectation that we would be excellent at it? Like, that doesn't even make sense, right? You're not— you don't suck at it, Brody. You're new at it, right? So that's a little bit of And then I think big picture, it's to sometimes like literally remind yourself that like, you've never been a human before either. Like this is, this is, we're all just first time in it here. Like every single thing.

Before this, we were just talking about how I consider myself to be a pretty good dad. I'm an awful middle school parent.

Yep. You hit, you hit walls where you're like, this is not my best. I just don't know.

I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what's going on. I don't know where I'm going. Like, I've never had a middle schooler before, so I got to figure this all out. So that's— it's good. It's good insight.

Well, it is. And then the thing too is like, and that's— I sometimes tell our oldest child that your oldest is your middle schooler, right? So sometimes it's reminding them like, hey, we're first time in all these things. Like, we don't really know either. And I think just being able to sometimes relax into that, like, hey, this is my first time seeing this thing or experiencing this thing. Like, we're not supposed to get it perfect.

When you go to therapy, child, just remind them that they, they cut their teeth on being parents on you. So I mean, it's really not all their fault.

You're the guinea pig. Lucky you. Yeah, it's, it's wild. But I do think, to, to your point, like, there's— and it's interesting too because we live in a rural place right now. I live in town proper, right? So I have like immediate neighbors, um, and there's this, this kind of— we romanticize country living. And I'm not going to take anybody's like fantastical ideas of that away. We do need to recognize that there still might be some actual isolation that comes—

Oh, for sure.

—that comes with that kind of living. And I think in small communities, I'd said this to you earlier, I think it is really interesting. Like, I'm trying to teach my kids that this isn't a microcosm of a bigger world. Yeah. Because it really is. We're very, very homogenous here. And so trying to give all of ourselves as adults to experiences where we see different people. And by different, I just mean people that maybe don't look like us, don't speak the language we speak, right? Maybe don't have the customs that we have. Because once you see all those additional stories, you may see parts of yourself represented in them that you're not seeing every day, right? These are things that I think it's all about just being a really good human. And then what does it mean to bring those things back to your community? Yeah. And I mean, we could talk about that for days. Like, is your community— do they want that? Some of them don't. And what if you do and your community doesn't? Like, those are the kinds of things I want to get into because it's, it's sometimes where there's a lot of heartache. Yeah. You know, whether it's running a business or just, you know, being a human trying to make growth happen or new things, bring new things to town. Like, it's just, it can be really challenging at times. Yeah. And there's got to be a safe place to talk about that. So that's what we intend to create. I love it.

I'll be here for it.

I know you will. You're 100% going to be here for it because you're going to be my little editor. I love it. I just told you little. You don't have to be a little editor. You can be a big-time editor.

There you go.

I'll take that. I appreciate you, Brody.

Absolutely appreciate you. It's— we're all in this together. It's— you ever watch Red Green when you were growing up? I did. Yes, I did. Keep your stick on the ice.

We're all in this together. And with that, we're just going to call it a day. Thanks, pal.

Thank you. Thank you.