94. Mental Health in Small Towns

Hey everyone, today's guests are Becky and Fran of the Shrink Wrap Podcast. Um, we got to record this episode at, uh, the Pheasant Canteen podcast studio owned by our friend Brody Mueller, who's been on the, on the show a couple of times. He produces the show for them, and when they first started airing, gosh, last year, maybe even 2020, I started following them and I knew that they were the women I wanted to talk to about mental health in small communities. There's still a stigma, there's still so much to overcome, and these two have a very down-to-earth, um, an approachable approach, if that can be— if I can say that. Uh, they make it simple, they make it easy when these things aren't easy, but they're also very common. Being human is tricky, and they help us navigate that so beautifully. And they're wonderful human beings. So without further ado, please enjoy this episode with Becky and Fran. Um, by the way, what you're going to hear when my voice goes away is their standard intro because of the disclaimer. I chose to keep that in our intro as well. So please enjoy. They are wonderful and you're gonna love them.

Welcome to Shrink Wrap, a podcast where Fran and Becky give proper respect to various mental health and wellness topics while adding in a little bit of smart-assery that they just can't seem to contain. This podcast cannot and does not constitute therapy advice.

However, we do hope that you find the information we share with you helpful and entertaining.

Please be advised that this podcast discusses topics that can be sensitive to some listeners. Use appropriate discretion.

Hey everybody, welcome to Shrink Wrap. And today is a very special— I feel like Grey's Anatomy slash Private Practice crossover episode.

The shrinks are combined with Miss Rebecca.

Is it undum? Am I saying that right?

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I feel like if there was ever an episode where your disclaimer was appropriate, this is the episode. Should not take anything seriously, any sort of actual advice.

Please stop listening.

I should feel like every time, this is Rebecca speaking, do not take this as advice.

Please do the opposite.

Ladies, it's so nice to meet you.

Thank you for spearheading this because we're notoriously slackers, so No, I disagree.

Okay, thank you. I disagree. But I'm like a sucker for people that can riff. You two riff really well. And you talk about things in a just straight up way that I really appreciate.

Fran's like, has she wandered into the wrong studio? I know. I mean, all their riffing is scripted.

So, well, I said rip because she thinks I'm old. I'm sick of this bullshit. I'm done with that.

So here's the thing. Brody actually let me in on your secret that that you guys are note takers and like you super prepare. And I said, well, I am excited to throw them off their game. I'm like, I don't know who's, who's gonna be more uncomfortable, me being in your presence or me trying to throw you off your game.

But oh, I'm just gonna eat popcorn over here.

Game on, guys. Game on. It's gonna be so fun.

So today we're gonna talk about, if I'm understanding everything correctly, mental—

that's just it right there. She has to understand. I get it.

Yes.

Mental health in rural areas.

Yeah. Yeah. Small towns. Right. Yeah. So, so for your listeners, I started a nonprofit organization in 2019 called Growing Small Towns. And so I'm back in a town of 1,800 people. I was born and raised there. My husband and I.

Which small town?

Oakes, North Dakota. That's O-A-K-E-S. Up there in Oakes, North Dakota. Up there in Oakes, North Dakota.

In Dickey County.

In Dickey County.

Yeah. The 14-year-old in me always giggles just a smidge.

I know. Well, yes. I mean, who doesn't giggle at Dickey County? So we moved back, my husband and I, who, you know, everyone should know that he's just parked in the corner here.

He's sitting in the corner minding his damn business.

He is. And he's Jeremiah.

Shut your mouth, Jeremiah. Wake up, Jeremiah.

You're in the presence of greatness, Jeremiah.

Isn't it funny that he wanted to sit in on this?

I know.

Well, I think that we established he did not. He's never listened to our podcast. Otherwise he would know he is just fresh meat sitting in the corner.

I know.

He hasn't listened to Rebecca's I knew that.

I knew he was fresh meat and I just brought him to slaughter like a lamb.

Rebecca, can I just sit in the corner? Oh sure you can, honey. Come on in, babe. It'll be fun.

You guys are mean. You bet you can.

Jeremiah, our North Dakotans can take it.

We're fine. And you know what, Brody's loving this because he's, you know, finally more testosterone. So testosterone in the room.

Yeah, it smells a little worse in here and it's great.

Yeah, it's the farmer sitting in the corner there.

You've done—

you're short and close to come all the way out here.

You've done incredible things. Well, I— okay, so don't even try.

Yes, you have.

I'm trying. Okay, so we moved back, um, it's been over a decade now, and I swear it's taken that long for me to kind of find my, my rhythm. Yeah, we also started our family right when we moved back, and as anybody who has children knows, like, there's a whole, like, just the lost years, like, what the hell happened? And like, what? You know, I've always been ambitious, and I have like career aspiration. And when my kids came along, it's like, how the hell do I do any of that? So all of that aside, um, my small town, it's not— and I've gotten a lot of shit for this, you guys, like, because I, I podcast and I'm honest and I talk about what it's really been like. And there have been people that have said, well, it's too bad that moving back was such a blow to your ego. Like, I've got—

oh no, no, no.

And I, you know, here's the deal, I get it. Like, Without context and if you don't actually know me, I get that maybe it would, it would come off that way, but that's not what it is.

No.

It's just, I, it hasn't been easy.

Mm-hmm. Right. It's not.

It's not. So growing small towns for me is about people. It's not necessarily about our population growing. Like I'm not gonna try to make 1,800 population of Oaks, North Dakota even become the size of Aberdeen, right? South Dakota. Right. Like that's not the goal.

And you wouldn't want it to be.

No.

It really takes away, I mean, I love Oaks.

I do too.

Yeah.

For our listeners out there, my brother Larry works for the Oaks School District.

Shout out to Larry.

Hey, Larry. Hey, Larry. Hey, Larry. Good times. Oh, nice.

Good times. They're also the bird.

It is. Shweddy balls.

Oh, geez. It's perfect. Christmas time. Why wouldn't we be talking about that?

They moved there, I want to say, 20-ish years ago. And it's a beautiful town. It's a beautiful community.

It is.

It has wonderful, fantastic people in it. Growing up in a town of 350, right? I can identify with some of the issues that come up with that.

Yeah. So, so for me, and the reason, like, what brought me to you two, um, well, first of all, that dude, Brody, sitting in the corner is what— yeah, the other corner, your other brother. Yeah, get in the other corner.

He's the Tinder of podcasts.

Yes, yes, he is. I'm swiping right all day, Brody. Yes!

Jeremiah is right there.

He knows.

He knows. Again, small town, they're into weird shit.

Just throw your keys in this bucket. It's fine.

I'm kidding. I don't garden gnome in my front yard.

Any of this stuff. So, so what brought me to you guys is like the, the more that I'm doing this work. So Growing Small Towns is more of a concept at this point. We, we actually renovated a big facility on Main Street. And also you guys will have to come in.

It's warm.

I would love to. It's gorgeous.

I would love to have you come, but, That's not really what it is, right? That's just a landing pad for what I hope can be the cool shit we bring to Oaks. Mm-hmm. But it's about people. And when you think about people, I, what I've been thinking about a lot and what I hope I can dive into with you two is how much does being in a small town amplify all the problems that everybody has everywhere? So like when you think about the fact that there's just less people, so your, your petri dish gets a little smaller. Yep. And everybody can see everybody. And does that magnify or amplify some of the challenges of just being human, right? And so I am excited to talk about mental health, not only awareness, but like what can we do about it? And from your experience as professionals in the field, is this something that you see challenging small communities differently? Not more, it's not a, nobody's winning any prizes here, right? Like whose struggle's worse? But I just feel like this is a key to what some of our challenges and the biggest things that we're trying to overcome. I feel like the overall social emotional health and wellbeing of who we are is some of what holds us back.

110%, if not 110,000.

What's, yeah. What's more than that?

So I think this is a perfect time for a Fran's Fantastic Fact.

You have to add.

Music please. Drum roll, crown, come on.

That's Becky holding holding Fran's hand, being like, it's okay, we're getting to your factoid.

Yes, exactly.

I know.

You know, taking care of her emotional needs.

Thank you so much.

I'm her emotional support animal.

She really is.

She's so comforting. Here, pet my hand. Pet my hand.

There we go.

Thank you.

My hands are freezing.

Okay.

So approximately one-fifth of the US population that live in a rural area, there's about one-fifth of the population that live in a rural area, and one-fifth of those living in the rural area, or 6.5 million, have mental illness. So if you really compare that to like a metropolitan area, right, it's a huge number. It's a huge number. And there's a lot of reasons for that.

And I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go stats on you here, Fran. Is that really about like, isn't mental health a, a struggle for mental illness?

Mental illness, literally, right, for everybody, you know, maybe So we're talking diagnosable mental illness. Yeah.

What are the national rates?

Well, so as we, as we talk about this, I think, you know, I, and I shared with you guys, like, I'm more of a talking points person. Yeah. Like, as I think about these things, this is how it's presenting to me. And I'm not a professional, like, clearly that is, at least I'm not a mental health professional.

Yeah.

But, um, there's a couple things that I think I see on a pretty regular basis that I would love to explore. The overall health of those things in a context, right, of a community. So let's talk about Midwest nice.

Mm-hmm.

And then how that tends to lead to passive aggressiveness and/or overall stoicism. Okay. So, oh yeah, this is kind of, that's kind of a lot of things, but they, I feel that they're very, very much presented like that's the forward-facing thing that I feel like I run into all the time. And I wanna just look at everybody and be like, oh my God, like, what do you really think?

Mm-hmm.

And just, just say it. I just, I feel like we struggle to be honest.

Yeah.

Well, and right now too, we're talking about this from a community development standpoint, right? Like we're trying to explain what the community of Oaks is like. Mm-hmm. And every small town says, oh, our people are great. We're so nice. Well, what the hell does nice mean? What does that actually mean? And what are, what can we, I just feel like we're so surface level with stuff. And I, I don't know if you noticed this, But I don't really like surface level bullshit. I'm just like, let's go deep and fast.

And in the Midwest, that's rough.

I have to move that way through the world.

We do not talk about that shit.

That's right.

It is rough.

I don't know why you're talking about how you really feel, but I think there's no time for that.

You have to look at the context, right? And I'm in Groton, South Dakota, so population is very similar.

Okay.

And we're talking about farming communities. We're talking about rugged individualism.

Stoicism that Rebecca mentioned.

Independent.

Right.

Self-sufficient. All good qualities that helped people survive. Right. And so they do have a more stiff upper lip. We can get through this. We don't need to rely on anybody. We can take care of this. Those qualities are not bad until they start killing you from the inside out where you're struggling and you feel like it's inappropriate to ask for help.

Right.

And that's when I really feel sad about it. I don't really see it as much in a passive-aggressive way, but I see it in a way where people are isolating themselves or using alcohol to deal with it. That's what I see a lot.

Yeah. So I, I definitely— so what, Fran, everything that you just said, um, I think that's, that's definitely how some of this plays out, is just that isolation and binge drinking. I mean, let's be real, I brought that up in the topics because I— and yes, I do happen to having a beverage as we sit here. But it is— well, he's a pusher.

I was asked to bring it.

So he's a pusher.

Whatever.

But I think North Dakota is the number one binge drinking state.

It very well could be.

I, I think— I mean, at least I've, I've heard that in some of the mental or some of the health— like, there's been some health assessments community-wide. They've been doing too. Yeah. Um, also it's just like, it's bitchin' cold, and so people just—

you hunker down.

We hunker down and we, we drink, which My whole thing is there's nothing wrong with alcohol, depends on why you're drinking it, right? You know, and so I do, I do feel like there's a lot of people that are numbing out.

Yeah.

Um, and alcohol just seems to be a, a more socially acceptable choice than other things.

It's interesting that— sorry, Birdie— it's interesting that it's more socially acceptable to be drunk than it is to express your feelings or— right, I've had a really shitty day— and just, you know, vent to your buddy or whatever.

Yeah, like, I've had a hard day and my feels really heavy and I just need somebody to sit with me for a minute. You, right, baby bitch?

Can we just get a case of beer, split it instead?

Right.

Yeah.

So way back when we first moved here, my wife ended up— I can't even remember how she met this guy, but he was teaching paramedics in Frederick, which is about 10 miles north, and very small town. And he— I have being the degree that I have— I'm not a doctor, but I am a master.

Yeah, you are.

Social work. And so they asked me to come speak about mental health. Um, and one of the things that came up was, you go on a— as a paramedic, you go on a call, maybe a mental health call or a suicide call. Not only do you have the isolation, because you can drive for a long time out here without seeing another house, but then they all are highly weaponized. Not highly— not everybody has an arsenal like like Dune— not Dune, uh, Tremors.

That's right, right.

But, uh, everybody has a gun out here. And so you— the, the nature of all of this just gets amplified a little bit by the isolation meets then the, the armed nature of just the life.

It's funny you say that because, um, I spent a couple years working on 2 North, which is our behavioral health unit here in Aberdeen. And one of the doctors I worked with was from Colombia, the country, not the small town by here. And anytime somebody would be admitted for a suicide attempt, you know, the first thing you always do is you say, what weapons do they have available? Because whether it's knives or guns or pills, you really strongly recommend that those get removed. And the number of people that would get in his face and say, we're not removing guns from that house.

Yeah.

And we're like, okay, but like, he, he just tried to kill himself. We're not removing the guns. And I'm like, you need to freaking remove the guns.

Yeah.

Right. Not forever, but let's get this person through their mental health crisis. But it is— that culture is huge. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Nothing at all.

No, not at all.

Right.

The nature of— I mean, I went pheasant hunting on Friday. It's just the nature of life out here that you have weapons around. I mean, well, in hell, on the farm, Jeremiah, I'm sure you— I mean, well, blades, and there's all kinds of stuff.

Yeah, right.

But that's why the suicide rate with farmers and rural areas is so much higher, because they have access to firearms, like, everywhere.

They do.

And it's usually older males.

Yes.

It's usually men that have been isolating themselves and they usually have access to guns.

So, so at the risk of, of like putting you guys on the spot, what, I mean, just what, what are some, what are some things we can do? Even simple things or because, okay, so like big picture access in rural places is a problem.

It is.

It, it is. And I mean, we're not, we're the, the 5 of us sitting in here including the hubs behind me here, we're not going to solve that right now. Like, I get that.

Yeah.

Um, but it— I don't know, I feel like— so I'll just tell you, um, earlier this fall we did kind of a symposium about, about mental health at the school, and we had a speaker. And it's so crazy because I'm really attuned to energy.

Like, oh, sister, you are in the right place. Thank you.

I feel so—

it's bullshit.

Yeah.

No, no, they're talking about like reorganizing your energy, and I'm just move this chakra from here to here.

I believe in all of those things too.

You don't move chakras, Brody, they stay put.

Maybe that's my problem.

Chakras don't get moved, they get realigned when you open them.

I'm going to blow open your chakras.

She's blowing them open.

I'll just—

look, your fabulous hair doesn't make you immune to energy, Brody. It's real.

I'm just going to go in the corner with Jeremy and you guys just talk about your, your frou-frou, whatever.

I know, but he has energy huge. It is huge. And so what I find interesting is like a person that I wanted— I wanted to somehow open up the dialogue, and even standing in front of the room, it felt so stilted. And maybe that was just because we don't do that a lot and talk about it a lot. Um, one of the presenters cried a lot, which was great. She was super uncomfortable. And then you know, that you've got the whole audience trying to not get in there with, you know, you could just— I could feel all of that happening. But I just feel like, is talking about it enough? Or, you know, what can we do?

Well, I think talking about it is the great first step because there's the stigma, right? Everybody has mental health and therefore every— most people have mental illness at one point, whether it's severe or not severe or whatever it is. And so I think when we start talking about that and we start acknowledging that, that is a great first step. When we look at the number of people who are suicidal, and I'm right now in the process of being certified as a first responder counselor. And, um, the person that puts on that is a social worker. And she had a suicide note that when she was, she was part of a suicide crisis team that would go respond to the schools, was written by an 11-year-old.

Oh my God.

An 11-year-old. And we just had the death of— what was she, 13, 3 years ago?

Yeah.

We need to talk about this, right? Because it's happening.

But Becky, if you talk about suicide, it's going to put the idea in other kids' heads.

Is that still an actual thing people think?

Yes, it is.

And that's a myth.

It's 110% a myth because they've been thinking about it. You are not— nobody's going to go, oh shit, I hadn't thought about that.

Right?

I can't wait to go home.

And yeah, that's not how this works at At all.

No. And usually what they do is they feel relief because what you've done is you've taken the taboo away.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so in a therapeutic, I, I mean, I've done this with my kids, I've done this with my, you know, clients. And we just say, have you thought about killing yourself? Like, I am that blunt. I don't say, wow, have you thought about harming yourself? I don't say, have you thought about hurting yourself? I say, have you thought about killing yourself?

Right.

Wow. And I say, wow, because that is extremely forward.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. But again, That's— I can roll with that because again, it has to be—

but Rebecca, it's life or death, right?

It is. Yeah.

And oftentimes in those situations, the person, if they are, they'll say yes. They're not saying, whoa, like, hang on. Uh, so I used to work at a suicide prevention hotline, like a— not a 211 here in South Dakota is not what that is, but it was 1-800-SUICIDE in St. Louis. Um, and when you ask people, it—

you—

they train you to do exactly that, to say, are you thinking about killing yourself? Not suicide, not hurting yourself like Becky said, Have you thought about ending it? Yeah, no, don't.

Have we—

have those all mean different things to the person who's in that state?

Well, and haven't— I mean, is there a little bit here where, again, not to get into like the politics of any of this, but I sometimes wonder if we've gone so far towards political, like, political correctness, the idea of softening the language of it and not intending harm by the words we use. And it's like, but if we don't say what we mean, yeah, you know, are we, are we softening it too much where we're not The words matter.

I go back to Brené Brown who says clear is kind.

Yes. And I say that all the time.

Unclear is unkind.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's one thing to say, have you thought about killing yourself? It's another thing if I say, you fucking pussy. Oh, I'm sorry if that can't be on your podcast.

Oh, it can. Okay. Yeah, it can.

Or if I say, you know, you idiot, have you thought about killing yourself? Like, are you that stupid?

Right.

That would be unkind.

Yeah. Oh, totally.

But to say, you know, if I'm asking that of a person, I know where they're at. I've already sensed where they're at.

Right.

And it's not a shock to either one of us when the words come out of my mouth. I don't— Fran, what's been your experience?

Always direct. I mean, not just with that, but with like my very first intake. Have you ever experienced sexual abuse?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I'm just right at the— and you would be shocked at how many people say, yes, I have. And I've never told anybody that before. On the very first session, the very first 30 minutes.

Because they've never been asked.

Right, exactly. So I am absolutely with you. It needs to be very clear and very direct.

And actually what ends up happening is the person is relieved.

Mm-hmm.

Somebody has finally just opened up the door, thrown open the blinds.

Yeah.

On the darkness that, that is this issue.

I was just gonna say that. I mean, shame, shame is, is different than, you know, it's like you doing a bad thing or having a bad thought doesn't make you a bad person.

Right.

But when it's in the dark, when it stays in the dark, that's when it feels, if everything feels worse in the dark. And shame lives in the dark. It does. And when you throw the blinds open and shed some light on it, and then you're like, oh, Oh, that's it. Well, I think it's like even the, even the feeling of, um, so I, the only time I've ever experienced what I would, what I should have probably been on medication for in terms of depression.

Yeah.

Was postpartum.

Mm-hmm.

With our first, with our first child, I was a freaking wreck. And I, I had a lot of dark thoughts.

Mm-hmm.

You know, of really, really dark, really hard, really scary thoughts. And I just think that's, it's like, at the time I didn't, I didn't know. Well, I couldn't talk to my husband cuz there was no way I could articulate even the right depth of what I was feeling. And like my mom didn't have that, right? So I talked to my mom and she's just like, oh honey, you know, it's, it's just, and she did the best she could too. Like this is no, this is no slam to my mom, but mm-hmm. I just think it's recognizing there's situations that we find ourselves in that create more of this tension. Um, let's just say like all of of freaking 2020 just dumped straight fire, right? Whatever it was that anybody was feeling, everything got amplified. It was really awful. It was an awful shitty time to be alive, actually.

Yeah, it was tough.

I think, I mean, in rural America there are lots of barriers, and we talked about some of them, like lack of accessibility, the stigma. But I mean, there's other factors too, in terms of, you know, you live in an area where mental health professionals, we are absolutely full to the brim.

That's what I was going to say too. We talk about access. I mean, Rebecca and I were talking about just access of planes. Like, if we want to go to the cities, I either have to drive 6 hours or pay $1,800 to fly everybody there for the weekend. But this is a whole other—

yeah, this is a life or death thing, right? That you still can't get access, but you still—

you can't get in for 3 weeks. And by then, who knows what's going to happen. And I'm really interested to know what you guys have to—

yeah, right.

But in addition to that, let's say you can get in, but the person you get is not specialized in what your issue is, right? So they have no cultural knowledge, they don't know anything about LGBTQ, they don't know any— they might not even be licensed, to be honest with you.

They might not be like— they might not want to talk about suicide or depression or anxiety. They might have zero knowledge.

They live down the street from you, right?

Oh yeah, exactly.

And then you have that shit hanging over your head. How many— I mean, again, we don't maybe have stats on this because I don't even know how this would ever get reported in statistically relevant way, but yeah, how many people don't seek help because they don't trust that their stuff is safe, or they just don't want the person they go to church with to know? It is one of the top 400 people.

Bad gas travels fast.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

But you know, I've had it work both ways. I've had people specifically ask for me because they know who I am, right?

Sure.

And I've had other people say, I don't even want to see you in the waiting room. Right? I don't want you to know that I'm a client. So it can go either way.

Right.

But I think that the whole— the sadness of it all is that people are holding back because they're scared someone is going to say something about them or judge them negatively because they're willing to ask for help. That is the beauty of telehealth, people. Yeah. I think telehealth is blasting a lot of these barriers. I hope so. I do too, because people don't have to wait in waiting rooms. People can log in privately, farmers can log in in their combines. I mean, it makes us so much more accessible. You don't have to waste travel time to get to your therapist anymore.

To me, that's the biggest thing. Like if you're coming from Oaks, that's over an hour.

Right, to Aberdeen.

One way, if you're gonna come to Aberdeen. Now, one of the downsides to telehealth is, and we have a representative that lives here in Aberdeen and every once in a while he'll see me out and about and he loves to just like jab me. And he's a good guy and he'll be like, what can I do for you today, Becky? And I'm like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about insurance companies continuing to cover telehealth. Mm-hmm. And let's talk about increasing our internet capabilities in these rural towns. Right. Because I have clients in rural areas and our sessions will break up just because the internet isn't that great where they live.

I couldn't even, I drove to Frankfurt today and couldn't send a meme. I mean, I couldn't send a GIF. I know.

Yeah.

And if you can't send a GIF, that's a mental health boost.

You, you, someone missed out.

Yeah.

On that.

I had to describe the joke I was doing and just didn't land.

Oh, it didn't do it justice.

No.

No.

So I mean, telehealth has been amazing and, but I get on this soapbox every opportunity I can. Mm-hmm. And that is we need to make sure telehealth's been around for a long time. Mm-hmm. It wasn't until COVID that most insurance companies decided to cover it.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

And so when we talk about accessibility, it also means affordability.

You bet.

And nobody, not too many people can pay out of pocket for a counseling session.

Mm-hmm.

And affordability is totally dependent upon the insurance companies. And some of them are gonna pull it as fast as they can pull it because people are actually utilizing it.

Yeah.

Right.

Which, that just drives me bananas because it's like, okay, let's pay, you know, it goes back to most insurance companies won't cover marriage therapy.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but they will cover the individual therapy after everybody's divorced. How effed up is that?

Totally.

Yeah, it is. And it's the same thing with telehealth. And it's like, is it easier to pay for the hospitalization stay, or does the insurance company just hope to get out and somebody else have to pay for the funeral? And I know that's dark, but here we freaking are, right?

It's like all— it's all health, isn't it? Like, when, when are we going to get insurance companies to value the proactivity of preventative measures?

Yeah.

Versus the, the fallout of not doing anything preventative and having an actual either crisis and/or—

We've had one major insurance provider already pull away from tele— like telephone counseling, which was all of that was covered under telehealth. So if somebody's Wi-Fi was just being obnoxious, I would just say, okay, I'm going to give you a call and we'll just do— if that's okay, we'll just do it via telephone. One of the major, major companies has already dropped that and telephone services are no longer covered.

But they're okay with like a FaceTime or a Zoom?

Yes, that's okay. Just not telephone.

Oh my Lord.

Right. It's frustrating.

Well, okay. So, so we're talking specifically about counseling, right? Yes. And like talk, talk therapy. Right. Um, I feel like in my area it's still like seen as something, and maybe this is just the, the idea that I get that you only go to those things when something's wrong with you.

Oh, Fran, you addressed that cuz you feel strongly about this. Yeah.

And I, I'm telling you like, that's, I, I believe in the value of, well, I'm, I like process things out loud. And the poor dude in the corner here, he can't hold all of my thoughts and he just can't. It's not fair. It's not fair to do that to him. And I love having a professional to talk to.

Well, and let's talk talk therapy because I think that's a common phrase used for what we do.

Right.

But what do we do, Fran?

I mean, look, we are promoting this podcast primarily because we want to destigmatize mental health and we want it to be preventative because it is so much easier for us as providers. If I get a couple in that's one year into their marriage and they're starting to struggle, struggle, there's hope. I get a couple 30 years in where they hate each other and they're planning the death of each other. Okay, you know what, here's the number of an attorney that's really good, right? Right. It's like, why don't we—

gotta be defeating for, for you guys.

Hey Becky, where did you get your incredible master's degree in counseling?

Well, let me tell you, the same place I got my amazing bachelor's degree, Northern State University.

Wow. Did you know that now they offer programs in K-12 school counseling and clinical mental health, and they are KCReB approved.

Stop it.

Yeah, I'm not lying.

KCReB is such a big deal too.

It totally is. And right now they have a trauma focus, which is a standalone course, not to mention their integrative mental health care class, which, get this, includes yoga. It includes specific disorders and how to treat them, acupuncture, all the cool stuff. Whoa. Even spirituality. No. Yeah.

How about aromatherapy? Because you know I love my essential oils.

Even that. Yeah.

I love it.

And the program helps prepare students to take and pass the— hopefully pass the licensure exams and get national certification.

I love that.

So if you're interested, contact Northern State University.

Hey, it's Brody, producer of Shrinkwrap. Just wanted to let you know that you can now purchase all kinds of great Shrinkwrap merch over on their Bonfire site. We're talking mugs, water bottles, sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, all of it. From the sassy to the regular, you got some great Shrinkwrap merch over on Bonfire. Head to the Facebook page to find the link or search Shrinkwrap Podcast on bonfire.com. And now back to the episode.

You know, 10 million years ago, there was this movie. Maybe you remember. I think Brody was in it first.

But knowing Fran, it was.

Yeah, it probably was. It was called The Accidental Tourist. And one of the—

I remembered that movie.

Okay, a poignant line out of there, and I remember thinking this, this is when I had babies and grown, was living in a small town is a great place to raise kids. But is it a great place to raise adults? And I thought, that's what Growing Small Towns is about. Oh wow. I thought, you know what? Let's think about that. Let's think about that. In some ways it absolutely is. It is in the sense that I can call any one of my neighbors at 3:00 AM and say, all the shit backed up in my house.

They don't have to— Literally.

Seriously, 3:05, they'd show up in pajamas and help me. Whatever it is. I'm not kidding you. It is. If I don't know where my kid is, I have 3 neighbors call me. Do you know what Camille's doing? I'm like, ah, thank you. I couldn't find her. Anyway, there we look out for each other.

Yes.

On the flip side of it, I think that we are in our own little bubble and we are not open to necessarily, I think we're getting better, different cultures, different ideologies, different ways of thinking, normalizing mental health.

Yes.

I think we're getting there, but that's so cool.

It's like we are our own brand new culture, aren't we?

Yes.

Yeah. Normalizing mental health.

Yeah.

And it just drives me apeshit because we, again, we all have it.

Mm-hmm.

We all have it.

Right.

I, and I think it's like, how do we go so long without the emotional and intellectual and mental pieces of our person being something we talk about? Like, it's always been there. We've always been this holistic person with all these facets. And how is it that that stuff was, what? I just don't, I don't really get it. Yeah. And I feel like I came out of the womb just super primed to be super feely. And everyone was like, who, what, what is—

well, you were probably born an empath. Yeah, if we really want to whack people out, that's a good way to make people's heads explode.

Well, and you're a, you're a Type 7 Enneagram, right?

Yes sir.

And of the subtypes of, uh, Enneagram, she's a sexual Type 7, which isn't what it sounds like. It's just sexual. It's just super, super in-depth, you know. Obviously she has— she said she didn't shy away from the, the hard conversations and the big conversations and the deep conversations, but it's just one of those subtypes. And so, yeah, that's pretty cool.

Yeah. Well, so it just makes me feel particularly like a, like a weirdo.

Oh, totally.

Do you know what I mean? I'm just like sensitive. And I grew up, I mean, I grew up, my dad, so my dad turned 75 just yesterday.

Oh, happy birthday, Rebecca!

Happy birthday.

He's, he's awesome. And he's, and the older I've gotten, the more, um, The more I've learned to kind of— well, there's boundaries. A, okay, he's our next door neighbor. You can talk to the man in the corner. We could talk family business. We could talk living in the town of origin.

I mean, there's an Everybody Loves Raymond situation going on over there.

Good gravy. It's crazy. But I grew up, you know, and everybody's parents, like, for the most part— I shouldn't say everybody's because some parents are actual shit.

It.

Yeah, I mean, some parents are actually terrible and shouldn't have ever had children.

Like, shouldn't have been allowed to have children. Yep.

But for the most part, barring those extreme circumstances, everyone's doing the best they know how to do.

They're doing it with what they learned, right? Which typically wasn't great.

I was just— it was just like, oh, you're so sensitive, and oh, it was—

yes.

And you know, it wasn't until I got older and I was like, is this really it? And I mean, I, I had to explore that on my own. Therapy was a big part of that for me, right? And kind of getting to be like, no, like this, this was actually, I was wonderfully and fearfully made just like this. And this is what I was meant to bring to the world. And knowing that there's vices, there's good and bad for me, just like there is for everybody. But keeping all of that in perspective, I just think that's, that's the kind of stuff that I wanna see us explore more.

Mm-hmm.

In terms of community development.

Yeah.

Because honestly, people won't find a way to belong. In a town unless they can bring their whole selves to the table. I think at least that's what I think, you know, this is a one of my suppositions.

Yeah, one of the biggest things I think regardless of the size of the community you're in is when we talk about the big stigma of not wanting people to know our business and stuff like that, I think regardless of who you are, where you work, what you do, if somebody entrusts you with something that you can tell is sacred, near and dear to them, hold that. Even if you're not a therapist or a doctor bound by confidentiality or HIPAA, which you should, and some still don't, but you should take that as a sacred honor and a sacred oath. And I think there are times both in small towns and bigger towns where people abuse that.

I think that's a beautiful place to start. And that's an easy thing. And all of us, if we're honest about it, we probably have betrayed betrayed a trust. Oh, sure, here and there.

And that's every one of us.

Every one of us probably has. And yet, what a great reminder. Yeah.

And that's just integrity as a human. It is holding confidentiality, holding sacred space. And I do think it's a beautiful place to start. I think the second place to start is don't talk shit about people.

You know, I still struggle with that one because I'm sarcastic and I like to make fun of things, and sometimes that's people, and I need to stop that.

Well, and that's so honest.

Yeah, I think we all do that at times. I mean, I'm I'm gonna own that too. But it's like, if you do that, then people don't see you as that safe person to confide in.

Right.

True. Mm-hmm.

The other thing I think of when it comes to that is when somebody talks shit around me, then I always wonder what shit they talk about me.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And so then I try to remind myself, if you're talking shit about somebody, you're allowing that person to wonder what shit do you talk about them when they're not there?

Well, and it's so, easy to get caught up in that. It's so easy and it's cheap, you know. And I, yeah, I definitely, I'm just thinking about this past weekend.

You do, you fall prey to it. Yeah. And you don't realize you fall on prey to it and then you're like, ah, damn it. Yeah, that isn't who I want to be. That's not who I am at my core, right?

So let me say what happens if you come to me as your therapist and you know me me or you know my kids? A lot of people will say, oh yeah, I know Anthony, or I know Camille, or whatever. Here's the rule: I cannot tell anybody you're my client, and I'm not going to tell anybody you're my client. And if you see me in public, I'm gonna— I'm gonna keep going unless you come up to me. You don't exist. I am never gonna blow your cover.

No, right?

And I say that to them right away. And what I'm seeing— and I— you guys, I'm so excited about this because I am getting more young men, I would say college age.

Yep.

Many of them are, yes. Many of them are rural. They're farmers, young aspiring farmers. Um, and they are not feeling the stigma that their dads felt. And I'm just like, I am so freaking proud of you.

Yep.

Right. It's awesome.

And it's not because they had to, they're not court ordered. They're like, you know what? I see myself repeating some patterns and I don't like it and I don't wanna be that.

Yeah.

I'm like, oh my God, that's awesome. But I'm also seeing in groups of women, like we have a cool group of women in Groton, and it's like we, when we get together, we're not just talking about like the weather. You know, if somebody brings up something and they're like, you know, I'm my, this person died in my family and my husband's really struggling or whatever the hell it is, we're there for each other. And we're not like, oh, I can't wait to go home and tell somebody.

I mean, right.

I feel like there is a more opening. I really do.

In a sacred space.

Yes. And I think that's awesome. Yeah, I really do.

Do you think— what does age have to do with some of this?

A ton. What do you see? Yeah.

Well, I feel like— so I have a lot of— I tend to be friends with people that are a bit older than me. I've always been an old soul in that respect. And some of them will say like, oh, it's just so great when you get to this age. You just, you know, like the whole thing is like all your fucks are gone. Like, you know, And actually, who is it? Oh, it's a good— my good friend. We were just talking about this, that there's this whole TikTok. I haven't seen it, but apparently this woman talks about how like when you're young, you have like a duffel bag full of fucks. And then at this point, all you got is a clutch.

Mm-hmm.

Like you can only fit your fucks in a clutch, which I thought was super funny. A clutch of fucks. Like, isn't that hilarious? You know, like that. Like, that's right. These are the ones. They're—

they matter.

And I'm gonna give these, like, I'm gonna hold these. Yeah. But all the other stuff goes away.

That is based on the book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck by Mark Manson. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Which is a great book.

Great book.

Mm-hmm. A great book. Book. So I think what I always, what I always question is, is there any way to shorten that learning curve without just living the life? You know, like, do the 8— does the, do the years just have to tick by?

Yes, there is a way.

Is there?

Yeah.

Here's another, here's another Fran's Fantastic Fact.

Let me just say, Fran, Fran just licked her finger and flipped her, like, flipped her page. So shit's getting real.

All right, Rebecca, let's buckle up.

I know, really about about you parenting your kids. So when your kid comes home and your kid looks sad, you say, hey, I noticed that you look really sad. What's going on in your heart? This is boy or girl. Yeah. And you don't just let them skip away. You're like, we're gonna talk about this. How are you feeling and what is leading to that feeling and what can we do about it? And you get them, you normalize talking about stuff.

Yeah. Right.

It's very challenging. Um, when, and when, A, you weren't taught that way. Yeah. And then of course, you know, if you're married, if your spouse wasn't taught that either. Oh, right. Right. And I'm not pointing any fingers or head nodding in any direction.

No, she's not nodding in any direction.

It's, it's just, it's just the truth, right? Like we don't, and then suddenly it's like, is all of this too touchy-feely?

And mm-hmm.

But I can tell you this. So we've got 3 kids, right? Our middle, our middle guy.

How old are they, by the way?

They're 12, 10, and 7.

Okay.

So 2 boys, older 2 are boys, and then we got a girl. Um, he sometimes, he reminds me so much of me as a, as a kid because, um, so there's just one time this summer we were in our building renovating and he was working on something and I didn't have the time. Like I was really busy. He was working on like a project, right? And he, he was just hammering nails into a piece of wood or something and he was like, like really jacked up about it. He brings it upstairs to me and shows it to me, and I'm like, oh, where did you get that wood? Like, where? And he's like, oh, it's downstairs. And then I said, oh, that was the contractor's buddy. Like, he might need that stuff. And he like really fell apart. Oh, like he got really upset. And I thought, you know, right away I was like, I don't have freaking time for this. Like, I don't have time for you to have a meltdown. But I go downstairs and he's down there, and he was like raging. You know, I'm just like so angry. And this, I don't do this, haven't done this often, but this stands out in my mind. I sat down and he didn't want to, but I pulled him onto my lap. And he just sobbed. And I honestly, it was like, I hadn't really been there much in the summer. Like it had been a rough, a rough go. And I thought, God, sometimes all kids really need is just to be held really tight. And I know that's not right for every kid, but, Yeah. You know, I didn't even say anything. He just cried. And then I said, are you feeling better? At some point he's like, yeah. And then he's like, I'm sorry, Mom. I was like, you don't need to be sorry. But I get that it's uncomfortable even for parents sometimes. But they're just, they're just humans in a less adapted form.

Oh, I like that phrase. Yeah.

I mean, they're just little, little people. They just like we are, you know? Only they don't have the language. So what else can we do, you know, to help? Because it's talking about it, but in what way that's actually helpful, right?

Teaching them the language. That's important. So giving them the words like, okay, so are you feeling hurt? Are you feeling tired? Are you feeling angry at somebody? Are you feeling like I scolded you? You know, and really kind of digging deeper and giving them the words. Words for that because how the heck did they know?

Right.

And I think that when you are having this time, this quality time, like one of the things I've always hammered with my kids is being kind to the kid that's left out, standing up for the kid that's bullied. I mean, I almost got to the point of brainwashing, but check out last week's episode to learn all about brainwashing and the Brand's cult of anti-bullying. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

I'm signing up.

But I hear stories where my son calls some kid that's never invited as a 22-year-old and invites him out, and that kid shows up because Anthony asked him to come. Yeah, as a young man. And it's like, you know, you can teach your kids all kinds of things, right? You can teach them to, you know, change oil in a car and do all kinds of things. But if you can teach them to be kind, yeah, man, that's really important.

Well, we were talking about Jeremiah and I were talking about this on the way up here. It's also reminding ourselves that kids learn by watching us. Like, we can— you can throw at them all day long what you want them to do. They're gonna— they're gonna pick up a lot by watching you. So are you a person that includes people? Are you a person that's kind? Are you modeling what you— what you believe to be true?

Yeah, right.

And that's— I mean, that's always a good gut punch for the parents.

So I have to tell you guys, I'm a huge fan of Random acts of kindness. I just love doing shit like that. I absolutely do. And a few years ago, it was Christmas time. So it was this time of year, and we were at Walmart, and the guy behind us, this old man, okay, really old, um, was buying a car.

How old was he?

Yeah, he was older than Fran, if that gives you any indication. Yeah, he was basically made of dirt.

He was 2 grades above Fran in school.

You guys are holes to each other.

He's so good. But anyway, so he's buying a carton of eggs. That's it. One carton of eggs. And so I say to the cashier, I'm like, just ring up his eggs and I'll, you know, I'll pay for 'em. And so she grabs the eggs and she rings 'em up and he just looks at us like if looks could kill.

Mm-hmm.

He was pissed and he marches off.

Yeah.

He was so pissed off.

You shamed him.

And I'm like, oh my God.

Yeah.

And so Allie went running after him, our oldest. And she's like, sir, we just, this like random act of kindness. He thought we were stealing his eggs. He thought like, and he was going off to get another carton of eggs and oh.

Oh, bitches.

Yeah, I know, funny.

And then he gets in his car and he has North Dakota plates.

Damn North Dakota.

But here's what I'm thinking, you know, like his wife was probably like having to make this last batch of whatever, right, and was out of eggs. And so she sends them to the store, and if you have North Dakota plates, you're at minimum 30 miles away. And he's like, damn it, I had to drive all this way and now these bitches stole my eggs.

Oh my God. Well, so, so honestly though, like what I was thinking was he I was pissed because he didn't need your charity, right? Which, okay, I'll just say I haven't had that happen yet. That's happened. I've seen that happen.

Okay.

And all I want to say, like, take the chance that that's the random response.

It's—

you don't—

we—

that's— we aren't in control of what people choose to do. Your intention— this is where attention matters.

Yeah, right?

Like, you're still— you're still putting out good in the world. The person blocks it and doesn't receive it, that doesn't make your good intention any less beautiful.

You know, if somebody is gonna buy me my groceries or coffee or whatever, it's gonna be, I'm not gonna take that as, oh, they must think I can't afford it, or I can't support myself. I'm gonna take it as, you know what, what a beautiful gift. And so if you're listening out there and people do this for you, take it as a beautiful gift. And pass it on. And now, speaking of passing it on, have we ever been in the coffee line and you're like, I'll pay for the person behind me, and they're like, okay, that bill's gonna be $45.17.

And you're like, how about, how about two behind me?

And I'm like, yeah. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to today, but next time, time I'm here.

Yeah, that's super funny. Like, um, just, just kidding. Yeah, I was just wondering what they were ordering.

So you can bring them often.

There's a bus behind you, so do you want to leave?

But you guys do that at the market, Brody. You have that Pour It Forward.

Yeah, you can come up and, and pay for someone, someone's beer or someone's drink or whatever, and coffee, water, whatever, starting a tab. And if your name's on the board, then someone's bought a drink for you.

I just think that's so cool.

That is really Just yesterday for my dad's birthday, a random lady bought our dinner. Like, I took him, I took my dad to lunch and I said, we're not inviting Mom or Jeremiah. I said, it's just you and me, Dad. And he, you know, he loved that. And this lady overheard us talking, knew it was his birthday. And yeah, she left the restaurant and then the server came up and said, oh, by the way. And I was like, that's so special. Like, it's a very, very sweet, very cool thing to do.

And I think speaking of parenting, like, I watched my parents and they're in their 80s. Very big service to their community. Lions Club, Park Board, nursing home. They were both EMTs on the, on the ambulance. I mean, it was just everything. My dad is 84, and he's still on the Lewis and Clark Board of Directors.

Cool.

And goes to Bismarck once a month for his Lewis and Clark meeting. But I remember we were out one time, we were back home, and we're out at the cafe after church, and the Waltz brothers were out there. The Waltz brothers were having a birthday. I can't remember which brother was having the birthday, but I kid you not, they were 92 and 94. Ah, and so So my dad was buying us our lunch and I went up there and I bought the Waltz brothers their lunch. And you could see the pride on my dad's face.

Like, ah, that you did that.

We raised our kids well. That's awesome. You know, because my brothers are just as generous in the same and sometimes different ways.

She's talking about you, Larry.

Yeah, you Larry and you Johnny Porkchop. Mm-hmm. Um, cuz my little brother lives with me. Listens to. Super awesome.

I want to meet Johnny Porkchop.

Johnny Porkchop's phenomenal. That's awesome. He is an amazing— Yeah, I, you know, and so when we talk about sometime on, you know, past episodes, we've talked about, you know, stereotyping men and this, that, and the other thing. I always say I've just been blessed and you have too, to be surrounded by amazing, amazing men.

Well, I give this one in the corner a lot of grief, but he's a good one.

Yeah. You got to keep him.

Thank you.

You too, Brody. Wrong corner, Brody.

Don't do it. But you did He did bring us drinks, so we're going to include him.

He did. I want to thank you both so much for entertaining this kind of—

We could go on forever, couldn't we?

Well, I just think it's—

That's the Rebecca effect right there.

It is.

Yeah.

I just think it's so damn important. I mean, it's important, I think, because again, I'm coming at this from not what does my community need today, but what is our community going to need in 20 years? I want Oaks to be a thriving, relevant community long after I'm dead and in the ground. Right?

I want—

if my kids want to come back to a small town, I want Oaks to be the place they choose. I mean, this, this— that's—

it's a cool town.

It's a very— it's a very cool town. And I think a lot of this for me too, being that weirdo on the street, right, who's a big feeler and I got big ideas and nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about 90% of the time. And that's— yeah, that's fine. But it's also reminding myself when I'm sitting in a board meeting or I'm sitting in a group full of people that maybe don't express quite the way I do is to try to assume some good intent.

Oh, Fran, tell her your philosophy on that.

You have a philosophy?

She does.

Well, I mean, I give it to Becky or other people. I always assume— Fran philosophy. Okay, whatever, whatever.

We're workshopping it.

Especially in friendships. I tell my friends this all the time. I'm always going to assume you're coming from the best possible place, no matter what you say to me or how you you say it, you know, even if you're having a bad day, I'm gonna be like, oh, she means it well. She loves me. I always assume that.

Yeah. I think that's super important. Jeremiah and I have talked about that in our, in our marriage too. Right?

Mm-hmm.

Because it's super easy to be like, why do you always, and he'll be like, why do you always put the worst construction on my face? You know, like it's usually his face. I love you, honey. But you know, his face, I'll be like, super handsome. Why are you, yeah, he's so handsome.

Yeah.

But I'll be like, why are you scowling when you say that? And he'll be like, can't, can you just assume that? I don't mean it in the shittiest possible way.

And I'm like, it's just deep in thought.

I'm gonna be like, I suppose I could. Yeah, you know, but that'd be easy. Why do we want to make it simpler than it has to be? But I just think that that's an important thing. And trying to remember too that in a community— and this again, I'm saying this for me, and if any of my Growing Small Towns listeners are listening to this, it's seriously trying to remember that everybody probably wants want some version of the same outcome, which is progress and health and wealth for the community, right? Now, how we get there probably looks really different, but to try to stay— because, you know, we young progressive people— I'm, I'm not young anymore, but I'm young-ish, right? So we tend to bitch that everyone's closed-minded. Yeah, well, we're being just as closed-minded judging them when we judge them for the way they're being, and Right. So all of that has been super helpful for me in the last year as I try to wade through this and try to, you know, try to show up fully, like fully Rebecca.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think that's what I'm supposed to do. I think that's what we should all aim to do.

And listen to understand and not to judge.

Right, right.

And you know, the, here's the thing, here's the beauty about rural communities. Rural communities look out for each other in terms of physical things, right? If I tripped and fell down my driveway, 35 people would be there. I'd have a casserole in the refrigerator.

That's right.

Someone would call me later.

Yes.

Whatever.

Right? So there with the casseroles, right?

Exactly.

Some really good casseroles, right?

Sometimes a hot dish too, right?

Sometimes a hot dish.

You're in Minnesota, weirdo.

Yeah, whatever.

Yeah, that's the appropriate name, but carry on.

Or if a farmer has cancer and he can't combine, there's going to be 13 combines that show up and they're not going to even do their own crop until that one's done. Let's generalize and also do that for each other's mental health. When you see someone sad and you see someone isolating themselves, or they've lost lost their spouse of 30 years. Mm-hmm. Do the same thing. Right. And you don't have to— bring the casserole, show up.

You, that's all you have to do is show up.

Yeah.

Right on your forehead. My grandma used to say, there's starving kids in Africa. What are you so upset about? And I'm like, oh, I guess I'm not starving, but I'm still sad.

Now what? Right, right, right.

Yeah. So just embrace it.

Yeah.

So one, one idea that I wanna share that I, that I actually did, um, that can just be a simple way to show your love and care is like on Mother's Day, think of the people you love that don't have their moms.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Or on Father's Day, the people you love that don't have their dads. Yeah. And just send them a quick note and say like, I'm, I actually wrote hand handwritten cards last year on Mother's Day. Oh, that's so sweet. And I just said, I'm, I'm thinking of you. Like, yeah, that day is hard when you don't have a mom to celebrate. Right. And you did up until a year ago or whatever.

So, or 5 years ago or whatever. Right.

Whenever.

Yeah.

And it, so it's just like, I'm not saying that you need to like schedule out your nice business. But it's just, I don't know, normalizing grief is a big deal. So, so I'm gonna actually give props to my husband here. He just, um, asked me the question, like, what kinds of things are— should we be looking out for in one another? You know, like, besides someone loses a spouse or loses a loved one, obviously there's like a trigger, there's like an obvious thing. But what other things in our kids, maybe too, should we are warning signs that something might be off.

Yeah, you go, Fran.

I mean, I was always the family where the kids were always at my house, and I figured if you're dumb enough to let your kid come in my house, I'm parenting your kids.

So, and psychoanalyzing them. Just kidding. I'm just kidding.

No, no, no, see, it—

back then it was phrenology, so she would study the little lumps on their skulls.

Yeah, exactly. Oh my God, that's Serious. Yeah, we are just a bag of assholes over here.

Not a clutch, a great big bag.

Oh my gosh.

Giant dump.

But if they're in my, if they're on my counter and they're eating and there's food falling out of their mouth, if they're grabbing food out of their fridge, I'm like, hey, guess what? At our house, this is what we do. We chew with our mouth closed. Great. That's awesome. And we're gonna ask permission before we open the fridge. And then you say thank you, right? And they're like, yeah, okay. And I'm like, I'm raising them all. That's the way it is. They know it. You know what?

I want to send my kids to your house. Can I send my kids to your house?

You can bring them over.

Give a great bull— great big thumbs up back there.

Yeah, like, let's just send them to France.

Don't let them poop in her bathroom. She, she draws a line there.

There's a whole other story to that. But I think— and also the kids that everyone is isolating because they talk too much or they don't have social skills, those are the ones that you really focus on in a community. You teach them, you have them come to your house. You say, okay, you know, we've, you've talked quite a bit now. Now I'm gonna talk. We're gonna take turns, right? So I'm gonna listen to you and then you're gonna listen to me. And you teach them some social skills. 'Cause they want desperately to fit in. They just don't know how.

Interesting.

In a small town, if you see them at the basketball game, if you see them at bingo night or whatever it might be, sit down next to them for 5 minutes.

Mm-hmm.

And just say, hey, how's it going? And then that's another opportunity for like, okay, now you've You talked, now I'm gonna talk. Um, but take a moment and just touch base.

Can I tell you, like, I listen to that and I love it, but that feels hell— that feels hell scary to me.

Like, really?

Yeah.

Oh, sit with that, girl.

Right? I mean, it does just like— oh, because I just— I can just imagine. I guess it depends on the kid, it depends on the parents. Like, I feel like I would only do that if I really knew the parents would be okay with it.

I think that's fair.

I You know, I can tell. And I'm just, I'm just being honestly like another revelation from shrink wrap.

All out of fucks to cover other people's things.

Oh my God, she's down to a coin. She's down to a coin purse.

I threw my clutch away.

No, no, I love this. And I mean, I'm saying that honestly because the last thing we ever want to do is be like, like, who the hell does she think she is? That's what I— that's immediately what I felt in my whole body. That's fair.

Sure.

What about for the people that you really love, but you just maybe aren't, they aren't necessarily open to, like, maybe you don't have a super giving relationship, like where feels get exchanged a lot.

Oh yeah.

But you care about 'em. So like my husband and his friends, right? If, how can we talk about ways to broach the subject if you see that somebody's struggling or you, you're worried about someone? Yeah. Yeah, you know, because sometimes, again, like grief is something in a small town where you know people lost somebody, so you know there might be something going on, right? But like the other things that are just simmering things, and we maybe— they seem off, or, you know, what, what should we be looking for? And what should we do if we see something? Does that make sense? Like, we're talking about the people that we would love enough to—

I think reach out, and I think, you know, it depends on the person and how you do that. So where do you stop by? Do you call? Those would be my two favorite things, like at the top. But if you know that they're not gonna be comfortable with that, then maybe you text. But just say, hey, I'm worried about you. Can I stop by for a few minutes and talk?

With a farmer, you say, hey, let's go check out the crops and I'll pick you up, right? Yes. Or let's go look at the machinery. And you just, you don't even say I'm concerned about you.

You just go.

Or let's go in at 1, right?

Let's go sit in the shop. That's where everybody sits.

Right. The shop apparently.

I do. I just, I feel the reason I, asked that in a very awkward and not well-spoken way. It's just like, that's the thing. It's, we worry a lot about being taken the wrong way, and then we do nothing. Do you not think that that happens a lot?

Right?

We're so worried about how our reach out is going to be received that we just go, oh, screw it. You know, like, I care about them, but I'll just pray for them. Like, that's it. And it's like, you could pray for them. But what if they knew?

I think it goes back to what you said earlier, Rebecca, when you said, you know, like you might buy the coffee for the person behind you and it might piss them off, but do it anyway, right? I think it's the same thing. You reach out and you just say, hey, I am worried about you, I'm here for you, we can talk now, we can talk later.

And then, you know, if they're like, screw her, she's an idiot, or I'm just thinking about you, I don't know why, but you keep popping up on my mind, let's go have some coffee, or let's go have a beer, or whatever.

I have a friend that does that. Like, she actually will send me random texts to just say, gosh, you've been on my kind. And I— that doesn't even have to have anything going on. I don't have to, you know, but I'm always like, that's so kind and generous, right? I don't know, I just think that this is, this is a key part of community.

Yeah. And when you say what to look for, I mean, I think people— if you're looking and you actually care about anybody, you know when someone's off, right? You've got a pretty good gut sense that this person isn't as talkative, they look sad, they're crying more, haven't come to church in weeks, whatever it might be, right? They're not showering. Yeah, whatever. Shit, it happens.

Jeremiah is laughing in the background. Yeah, sometimes it's out of convenience.

I'll back him up. Damn, sometimes I just don't shower. That sucks.

I should say if not showering is out of character for them, right?

Yes.

We don't worry about Rebecca apparently.

Yeah, nope, I'm good, I'm good. Yeah, haven't washed my hair in days.

So since this— in, in summary here, as a— as this is a crossover episode, I, I think each of you should give your plug to the other audience, right? And what you, what you do.

Thank you, producer Brody.

You know, just looking out for the audience numbers here. So Rebecca, you want to start?

What am I doing?

Plug your podcast.

Oh yeah, my podcast is the Growing Small Towns Show. You can listen to it on Stitcher, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast.

Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon.

And what info are people getting from The Growing Small Towns?

Like, what is the Growing Small Towns show? I mean, essentially we talk about any topic relevant to the growth and development of small towns. Could be economic development. Sometimes we have experts, sometimes we have, um, just people doing cool shit.

Mm-hmm.

Because my whole thing is like, I wanna showcase the wide variety of amazing people that have chosen to live in a small town.

Yes.

So people don't, I wanna break the stigma of what it means, right, to be a small town resident.

Right.

And then Fran and Becky, for the Growing Small Towns audience, what is Shrink Wrap? Who may not have heard of you—

Shrink Wrap the podcast.

Shrink Wrap the podcast.

Okay, Fran's frozen. Go ahead.

No, it's a mental health podcast and we make people laugh and we're breaking down the stigma of all kinds of mental health topics like depression and anxiety and stalking and emotional abuse. You name it, baby.

And the other thing I'd like to throw out there too is we do do speaking engagements. So like, you know, if you have a small town out there and you would like us to come, I mean, we would definitely do a talk on suicide or community. I mean, pretty much between the two of us, we have close to 50 years of mental health experience. Most of that's Fran's.

No, I'm kidding.

I couldn't resist.

I am so done with you people.

That's so fair. But you can check out Fran anytime. It's fine.

We do have a lot of mental health experience between the two of us in different areas. We both have an area of expertise that's different, and some of it crosses over. So we are always happy to come out and do that as well.

Mm-hmm. Oh, well, check us out. Consider yourselves booked. Like, yes, I have an event space. Oh yeah. You're coming my way, guys.

I love it.

Coming up north.

I love Oaks. Yeah. I wanna go.

Come and see us.

I wanna go to Sweets and Treats and get some fudge. Look at some books.

Sweets and Stories.

Sweets and Stories. Sorry. Yeah.

I had to just, yeah, she's great.

Right across the street from my ice cream sandwiches that are sometimes made with the famous Larry Engel ones.

That's right.

Ah, that it actually is on the board. Bored.

His monster cookies are the best.

Yeah, they make an ice cream sandwich out of them. Her brother, isn't that something? Look at it, just full circle.

Full circle. Small towns, good times.

Well, on behalf of Fran and I, I'd like to say we are the Shrinks, and that's a wrap.