99. How to Combat Apathy in Small Towns

Our guest on today's episode is Jeff Sigler of the Facebook group and website Revitalize or Die. I came upon Jeff actually just as a part of his Facebook group and following his Facebook posts. And today he joins us on the show to talk about the effects of apathy, what happens when we stop caring about the little things in our community, what happens when those, that indifference or acceptance of low standards and mediocrity rolls into bigger things. What does that mean for our communities and what does it mean for our ability to attract people, new people to them? He has such an alignment of vision in terms of economic development really getting in the way sometimes of the core community building principles that are necessary for people to decide to choose our places to live. People need a sense of belonging, people need a sense of community, and those things get eroded over time when we let apathy set in. I really enjoyed this chat with Jeff. He is in a big community, he's in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but he does a lot of work primarily in smaller communities, and I, I think you're going to love it just as much as I did. So enjoy this chat with Jeff Ziegler of Revitalize or Die. Well, welcome Jeff to the Growing Small Towns show.

Good morning, thanks so much for having me on.

Oh, I'm so excited to talk with you. So We're going to link to all of your good— all the goodness that you've written and all your Facebook group. We'll link everything in the show notes. But why don't you give our listeners just as brief an overview as you can about how you got into this kind of work? What drives you to want to do it? Yeah, just tell us all the things. And then I tend to famously interrupt with lots of questions, so I'll apologize ahead of time for that. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, I grew up in a Rust Belt community, Lima, Ohio, in Northwest Ohio, and Yeah, so had the initial background of being in a town that was struggling in that sense, the type of place where when we all graduated, my parents were like, "You have to leave. You have to move somewhere else for opportunity." And that shaped a lot of my thinking. I mean, it's a sad thing for a parent to have to tell their kid to go somewhere else, but I certainly, I think from their perspective, that was the wisest decision. So grew up in Lima, went to school, background or undergrad in economics, which ended up shaping my thinking a lot more than I realized it ever would, kind of.

I bet.

Tossed it aside. Yeah, I tossed it aside. It's like, oh well, I'm not going into business. But it turns out like that be so much of what we see in, in this is like consider how rational people think and behave and how we can sort of use the mechanisms of, um, you know, punitive and incentivized to try to create the outcomes that we want. But I think a lot of times we, you know, most people are acting rationally. And I think we overlook that sometimes when it comes to revitalization, and it allows us to miss the mark or tell ourselves myths that don't really add up. So then later studied urban planning down in Richmond, Virginia, worked as a downtown manager for a couple of years before becoming the state coordinator for the Ohio Main Street program.

Did you say which state? Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio Main Street program.

Okay, cool. Yeah.

So did that for about 10 years, and that really shaped a lot of my thinking because I'd end up going back to these communities time and time again. Every year you go to, and honestly, communities that were pretty depressed, communities that were in really rough shape, and you go and you kind of trot out all the things you think, "Oh, okay, you need a plan," or, "Let's find some grant funding," or, "We'll fix this, we'll address this." And you think that, "Okay, we've turned a corner," and you go back the following year and nothing's different. And it made me start to wonder, what is it? What can't we figure out? Why Why can't we help these communities no matter what we do? And it finally dawned on me that it's like, oh yeah, we're trying to fix a very internal, a very emotional problem. We're trying to fix this issue of low self-esteem. We're trying to address apathy with these very technical tools.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, it's not a money problem. It's not a planning problem. Like if somebody, if an individual is suffering from low self-esteem or very apathetic or depressed, you can walk it. You can tell them, you can say like, here's what you need to do, but that's That's not it. And trying to, you know, we kept trying to provide this technical, and that's what we still do. I think most industries when, you know, it's trying to provide very technical solutions to a very sort of internal emotional problem. It's a human problem. Right, it's a human problem. You know, I always think to it that one day I was leaving the office to go visit a community. I think it was Steubenville, Ohio, and my coworker was like, oh, you know, have fun over in the Depression. In the Depression Belt. And I was like, oh, that's awful.

That's like an awful way to think about a place, right?

Absolutely. And it had that impact on me, that same— it's like, haha, that's sort of sad and awful. And then the more I thought about it, it's like, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. I'm like, literally, I did not like working there. Nobody did. I mean, there was a bunch of towns and it's like the setting, I mean, it always seemed like it was March weather. It was always kind of cold and dreary. But the setting, I mean, the buildings were all run down, nothing was cleaned up, and there's a bunch of towns like this. And so it was sort of depressing to be there. And then the people were always kind of difficult or hard to work with. I mean, there was a lot of infighting, there was a lot of politics. There was always this opinion that like, well, we can't do it here just because that works there. And so you always left there drained and it's like, oof. And then it's like, oh, right. That, right? Like, I don't even want to go and work there for a day because how it makes me feel. Imagine how it's like to live there, right?

Okay, so, so many things, Jeff. So let's, um, so let's back up to— and by the way, thank you. And I want to say this too. I— so my, my undergraduate degree is in business administration, which means, I mean, kind of virtually nothing. Like, you know, I went and I got into school and I was like, well, okay, you know, what's marketable? And I took some economics classes and really didn't find them interesting at all at the time, but I was, you know, what, all of 19 and 20. And it is the area now where I actually, if I were gonna go back and pursue any, just joy learning, like for the, cuz I actually really love learning. I'm just like that. But economics would be it because it really does. It drives, it drives everything. It really does drive everything. So I think it's fascinating that that was your background and then you What made you pivot into urban planning? Like, maybe it wasn't a hard pivot, but like, what drew you?

Sure. No, it's a great question. So funny enough, I, uh, after college, um, living out in, um, Montana for a couple years. Oh, you were my neighbor? Yeah, yeah, I was, I was.

Yeah, where did you— where about? Just out of curiosity.

Ended up working on a ranch in Paradise Valley, so in between Livingston and Yellowstone.

Okay, wow.

Um, Yeah, it was very fortunate, but there was a really close sense of community there in the town of Livingston and then also in this valley. The ranchers all knew one another and if there was a whatever, I mean, if it was a branding, people would come from all over to help out. There was just this really close-knit sense of community that I'd never experienced growing up in the suburbs. And then a few years later, I ended up living in Brooklyn and found the same. And I was shocked and it got me to thinking, here's this thing that I really have come to love, this sense of community, this sense of belonging and togetherness and feeling you have roots that I never experienced growing up. And so thinking, well, it must be based on density or then to find out, no, it had nothing to do with land use or density. It was something different. Or maybe it was the right type of land use, but it really got me wondering, how can this thing exist in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, and in Paradise Valley, Montana, but I never experienced it growing up? So it just made me want to understand better how the built environment and natural environment facilitates people experiencing a sense of community.

Yeah, that's fascinating. So let's talk a little bit about that. So you now consider yourself a civic pride consultant? I mean, that's one of your titles, right? Yeah.

I've done it.

For the website, which doesn't mean anything. I really want to know like what have you discovered? What have you found? What are, because okay, so like I think about who's going to be listening to this. A lot of people that listen to our show are people that in their own way, whatever their job, again, it's not, 'cause I don't know if you have found this, but civic pride is certainly not relegated only to those that we elect into public office. In fact, sometimes I feel like those folks are actually void of that deep-rooted, compassionate, on-fire zeal for their place. But I'm not disparaging, you know, no politicians are going to get hurt on my podcast. So it's fine. But I think, you know, oftentimes the people talking or listening to this show are people that, that really want their places to be the best that they can be. You know, the mission of Growing Small Towns, we serve 7 counties, it's to help the communities we serve be places people love to call home. That's a feeling thing, which a lot of people like roll their eyes like, oh, it's all fluff, it doesn't matter. That's not what you're finding, I'm guessing. So can you share a little bit about like what are some of the core tenets on the people side of economic development that makes sure places great?

So there's a lot to unpack here. So let me think how to start. But you know what I think happened, or a way to summarize that we have these incredible places these really beautiful towns. They were built with quality materials and they were locally owned and you could have so much pride to walk down the street and see the names up on the buildings and say, I know those people and those are owned, they were built and they're owned and they're operated by people in my community and to stop in the market or the shoe store and also know those people and to get to make decisions that, and to have sort of the understanding that it's our town and we get to decide what our standards are and what our expectations to live in this beautiful, wonderful, fulfilling places where you felt these huge connections and these deep roots. I imagine that people were immensely proud of their town and that was a really great feeling and it facilitated the type of lifestyle I think that people could— probably made people incredibly content, probably made people feel a sense of belonging and togetherness and pride and all these great things and a really rich life. And then I think like, well, we abandoned it. And so as we move from this local economy to a convenience economy and the sprawl economy, all that went away. All that just got thrown out the window. And I think about what's the trauma of an individual losing something incredibly special to them? So think about if a person lost all their friendships or relationships or lost their house or or their house, they couldn't care for it anymore and it ended up sort of falling apart. And I look at it, it's like we went through this collective trauma where we lost everything that was special over the course of a generation and now everybody is a bit messed up from it.

Yeah. So we're collectively grieving.

Yeah. And I think that we've collectively lost all our self-esteem and lost all our pride. And forgot how these things work. And so everybody, you ever hear that thing where it's like, well, why would you move here?

Yes. Yes.

That's what it is. That's what it is. Well, I like me, but this town is beneath me. This town isn't any good. And that's, I think, that low civic self-esteem when a town is convinced that they don't deserve better, which is the most natural response to losing everything that matters.

Right. And you've talked a bit about— you've talked a lot about apathy, you know, how— what that does and what that feels like. And the truth is, you use in one of your articles, and you probably said it many times in many articles and probably everywhere you speak, but that it's a natural reaction to a decline of any kind is just to kind of sit back, like sit back and just let it happen because it it's easier to just let natural deterioration take over. It takes effort, and you have to fight. You have to fight to get it back, you know. So I mean, if we're talking just which, which is easier, it's always easier to just slowly, you know, devolve into nothing. But I—

right, you know.

But so, so I think, I think I'm pretty sure, Jeff, one of your articles too, you talked about This whole, like, I've never actually heard anybody refer to civic pride as self-esteem, but I think that's a really smart way to think about that because I think that makes how we feel about our places feel extremely personal.

Yeah, right. I kind of figured out that the two are pretty similar, if not the same, that it's, you know, apathy is a lack of care, a lack of concern, a lack of love. It's in essence, As something declines, it gets harder to care about.

Yeah.

And whether that's your physical fitness, whether that's your home, your car, whatever, as soon as something starts to decline, you're on this crash course with, oh, it's going to be like, don't do laundry for a few weeks and it becomes a real— And it's that way with the building. It's that way with the relationship. And so as you said, status quo means maintenance. It's not doing— I mean, the act of doing nothing, which is really easy, that causes decline. To actually stay static, you have to do work. You have to maintain just to keep things the same.

There's still a lot of effort. Yeah, there's a lot of effort that has to go into keeping things right. Right.

And so once something starts to decline, there's this lack of concern or lack of care. And that I look at as the more I think about it, the more like a lack of concern or care which that is almost a sickness to itself. That's incredibly unhealthy when you don't care about things. Isn't that what kind of roots us in the world is our concern and care and love for things? Again, people, place, ourselves. And so once something starts to decline, then you're faced with this huge challenge because it's going to get to a point where it's either too far gone or it's like it's going to be a ton of work and it stresses you out and it's a big deal to fix it, or you let it go. And, and that's stressful and hard.

So do you think that any of our communities that have accepted less than what they deserve— maybe we'll, we'll look at it that way, right? They've accepted standards that are beneath what they— you know, maybe they just stop thinking about standards. Do you think it's all actual apathy, or is some of it overwhelmed because they don't know where the hell to start?

I think some of it, I think there's plenty of apathy, but I think there's a lot of it too that comes from, I'm not the biggest fan of economic development because I think it convinces. So for one, it tries to tell us that you even said it, that's like, oh, that's considered fluff. And when we talk about emotional things, that's fluff. That's ridiculous. The idea of—

I certainly agree. I certainly agree. Yeah.

Right. We're emotional. We make decisions based on value, not cost. So we will pay more for anything if we perceive that it has greater value, which includes beauty, which includes aesthetics. And what I think economic development has done is try to break everything down towards a cost and make us think that all that matters is numbers, jobs, or we have politicians that think it's just about taxes, like whatever's cheapest is best. And it's a race to the bottom then. So there's this pressure from economic development, I think, to constantly lower your standards to say, "Well, no, we want investment, so we need to have less red tape. We need to have less bureaucracy." Or that, "Look, if a business wants to come in, you're some sort of socialist if you don't think that that business or that building should be allowed." So there's this constant pressure from the economic development capitalism side to constantly lower your standards. To bring in more jobs or more investment. And so that has really had a huge effect, and that's caused the standards to go down and down, which again is decline, which again then has an emotional impact. There's a really great example I got to experience down— I was working with Hattiesburg last spring, and we talked about a lot of this. We had a roundtable with the mayor and some bankers and some property owners, At one point, one of the bankers turned to the mayor and he is like, "Oh my God, I get it. I am not going to lend any more money until the city starts enforcing the building codes." It was like, "Whoa, what just happened?" And it was great because the banker got it. It's like, no, it's actually having high standards that protects money, that protects investment, and then that mitigates risk. And so about 6 months later, somebody was got included on some emails back and forth about a project. There was a big project being proposed in downtown and the planning commission was like, "Nope, it's a nice project, we'd love it, but it's not good enough. And we've talked about this and we're going to kick it back and demand more of them." And they got it. And so literally they said that we deserve better and the developer and the investor was like, "Yeah, okay, that's fine. We'll meet your standards." Right?

If they want to move to your place bad enough, they'll meet your standards.

Right. Right. And that's what you have to do. So I think that a lot of it does come from this constant pressure of like, all investment is good investment, which it's like saying every meal is healthy. You know, like, yeah, there's a difference. And some investments are good. Some investments make your community stronger, but most of them don't.

So how does the average person that actually gives a shit, like me. Like, I think about me, I mean, I really care about my community. I care about the communities around me too, which is also an interesting thing. It's almost like I'm a, um, it's like sacrilegious to care about the communities around you. I don't care about them more than my town, I just want them to succeed also. And I technically am in the realm of economic development, but I, I don't have a 40-year history in it. And so I'm, I'm coming into it with more of the mindset. I mean, I was an organizational development expert like that, so I've always had more of a people-focused, systems-focused approach to what these things look like. And to me, it's always been about people. So I have a, I don't ascribe to a lot of the typical ways that people think about economic development. So I think I have a really great case study for you. What do I do? How do I start? What does it look like? You know what I mean? What kinds of conversations should I be initializing? Or, you know, just what does this look like, Jeff? Like in practicality, how do we help people? How do we even help them see that apathy might be a thing in our community?

So one thing I try to remember is like that we're the weirdos. I was in a meeting somewhere last week or two weeks ago and like, well, how do we get everybody to show up to these planning commission meetings? What? You're the weirdos that are passionate enough to show up to those. You can't expect everybody to come to that. And don't stop worrying about that. Do the right thing. Do the right thing regardless. If there's so little to care about, it's really natural for people not to care. So what's the response to that? It's like, give them things to care about. So I kind of look at it sometimes as being a counselor. And it's like, okay, lay down, tell me what your town did to you. And instead of this 200-page plan, how do we get a little bit better every day? If you can't get out of bed, suggesting a marathon is not only not going to be helpful, it's probably going to be discouraging. Sometimes I think that that's where we screw up. It's like we always come up with these silver bullet projects or it's like, "Oh, well, once we get this money or once we complete this arena or once we do that, everything will be better." And it all happens and then you're like, "Well, nothing got better." So it makes things worse. Planning's fine, but it doesn't work for somebody. It works for communities that are capable and a lot of communities aren't. So I think it has to be small things. Well, let's get off the couch today. Maybe tomorrow let's walk outside. Maybe the next day we can walk around the block. We've got to have a bunch of little victories and do a bunch of small things if we're ever going to get to the bigger successes. So how do we get people to care? We'll give them things to care about. So we know that relationships are something people care about. Beauty and aesthetics are something people can care about. Ownership. There's a different relationship to the things that we feel a sense of ownership to. I mean, like raising standards when people progress, like when things get better. So my recommendation for anybody that wants to get started, like start by your front yard, or if you're in an apartment, start by your block or start right where you live. And the best way to do that is talk to some other people on your block, and hang out and start cleaning and then socializing. That's it. If you just work with people that live near you and live near your block and say, hey, let's go pick up some trash and plant some flowers, and then let's have beer afterwards. Let's drink a bunch of wine afterwards and chat. That's it. Literally the solution to fixing this huge big problem of a declining community is cleaning up a little trash with your neighbors and having some wine. Because that's the building blocks. It doesn't— you can't get in shape overnight, but every time that you work out, you feel better. And every time that you work out, you're more likely to work out again. And so every time your block gets a little bit cleaner, you're less likely to throw trash on it. You're more likely to pick it up. You're more likely— it's the IKEA effect that somebody once explained to me. Like, do you have a deeper sense of ownership and relationship to that furniture because you assembled it? You've imparted yourself on it. So the simple act of cleaning a little bit and planting flowers on a block or in your downtown helps impart that ownership and you care about it more, you have a connection. So I think it's really, really simple stuff. It's just emotional. It's how do we get people to get a little bit more emotionally engaged and care so that they're more likely to long-term, that'll have a big, that'll have a huge impact.

Yeah, so we have coming up in June an all-school reunion tied into our summer festival. So we have a summer get-together festival every year. Um, this is the 51st year, I think, of it. So, but a long-standing thing. And again, all-school reunion, so everybody comes back. Like, our town will double in size, which is, you know, sounds crazy to somebody that lives in Pittsburgh. Our town is 1,800 people in it, Jeff. So it— but doubling in size is a big deal. We've been talking about this, like, how do we get— how do we get this community to be in the best shape that it can be. And that's exactly what we're talking about. It's just a few of us saying, okay, well, we're just gonna, we're gonna get together and we're gonna host cleanup parties. And we're gonna, you know, because again, it's, ownership is such a big deal too. And I think that's one of the challenges I feel like I see is the more where we, we offload the responsibility of something to committees, or to boards or to groups or to the people that were elected to do it, the less responsibility we take. And then what I— and I don't know, maybe, maybe this is just my community. I feel like what happens is people start to notice things and they start to bitch and then they say they should fix it. You know, like the people that they think— and it's like, if it's ours and it's a public good of any kind, we should fix it? And what does that look like? Like, what is my part? And that's like the two questions that got me to re-renovate the building on Main Street that I'm sitting in. That's— that was my grandparents' when I was a kid, was those two questions. Like, what kind of future do I want? What's missing that would make that future feel right for me as a person? And then what's my role in creating that future? I think that's the second question, is the question we don't ask, right? It's like, what is my role? What can I do today with what I've got and who I am, right where I'm at? What can I do? And there's always something, right?

There is, there is. It's funny, I find that there's a lot of people that live in that same camp of like, I hate government, but I want government to fix everything. Like, when's government going to fix this? Like, listen to yourself. That's nonsense. Like, you know, we need the healthy functioning government, but it also can't do everything. And I think that that's that lack of ownership because really, I mean, we once completely owned our communities and then we lost a lot of it. A lot of the commerce and real estate went to national hands. And so in public space, as public space dwindles, I think that's also a reminder that this isn't really yours. It's like, do you wash your rental car?

Yeah, right, right.

No one washes their rental car. And our towns now feel like rental cars. It's like, yeah, well, we get to live here, but it's not really a place that we own. We don't get to make the decision, so I'm not really going to clean it up. So I think that a lot has to do with that reminder of like, hey, we do have to clean it up. We do have to pick it up and take care of it. So that comes from your personal action, but then that can spread so easy. I mean, block parties and front porch parties and just the socializing, I think, is such a big part of it because when you start to care about other people, we're more likely to take care of other people than ourselves in some way. So it's like, well, I want my town to be nice for all these people I love, all these people I care about. I want them to live in a great place. And I think as those roots deepen and those connections between people get stronger, I think then it's much easier to say, hey, will you show up to council with me and fight for some vacant property legislation? Or will you come downtown and pull some weeds with me? And so it's It's pretty simple and we have to keep it simple too, because once we get complicated, that's when people tune out. Like it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't take a committee to pull weeds. It really is the opposite. And so sometimes I think that we create committees and do plans to say like, well, hey, I'm doing something even though nothing's getting done.

Well, I think that's one of the biggest challenges. So I wanna float this idea by you again. So my background is in organizational development. So I, I work with companies to help them either define or refine or develop their, their culture. Like, what does it really, what does it really feel like to work here? You know, like what's the unspoken rules that define how we behave and how we treat each other? And oftentimes if companies can like really narrow down their values and actually, and actually hire and fire by those, it can be revolutionary for a company. Right. But so to me, as I think about that world, and I move into this community development kind of focus, I feel like there's a ton of parallel.

There is, there is.

Like, what does it feel like? What does it feel like to work here? What do we accept as just second nature, even if it might be a little bit dysfunctional? Like, what, what are the things that are just unspoken truths that we've all agreed are true? And then if they're not true, how do we change those things? Right?

Yeah. I love that you bring this up. Yeah, please, please. I think it's critical because I believe that we live between the guardrails and between sort of the standards and expectations. And if those aren't— whether you're parenting, whether you're even a pet owner, a teacher, a boss, whatever it is, I think it's those guardrails that create the outcomes. And if those aren't set or if we keep lowering them, If we keep lowering them or moving them, we're going to keep getting bad outcomes. It's like, look, it is up to anybody, whether it is up to you as a boss or you as a board member or you as a parent and you as a community member to collectively decide what do we expect and what will we not allow, what's unacceptable. And those keep getting depressed. And I think that we keep lowering those hoping for better outcomes. It's like, well, mm. Course you're not getting better outcomes. No institution or individual ever goes into lowering standards and thinking that somehow they'll get better. But we do that a lot. But certainly at the organizational level. So I do some board training because what I found, it's like, hey, we're going to create a new board. Great. What do we want from people? Oh, nothing. Nothing. We are going to tell them that it's It's just like, if you're free at 5 o'clock on Thursday, you're perfect for us. And we're not going to—

So a pulse then is what you need. The people just need to be breathing. Perfect.

Right. We want to ask so little of them because we don't want to be a burden. And it's like, you've failed already. You've failed already because you've set your expectations exceedingly low. So your organization is never going to succeed. And then everybody's going to have a really miserable experience. Harvard is pretty hard to get into, yet there's a ton of applicants. And I think people have a pretty good experience because at the end of it, yeah, it was probably hard. It was very grueling, but the reward was incredible. And I think that that's something that we need to understand at the board level. It's like, your job isn't to give them an easy experience. Your job is to give them a fulfilling experience. Your job is that at the end of their service, they're like, that was the most meaningful board experience I've ever had. And that, and those two, like easy and, and what's best and what's easy never, never really line up.

Totally. So, so the one, the one challenge that I've had in making like this shift between how you work with companies and what it looks like in community is what we were just talking about and it's ownership. So when you're working with an executive team, they own the decision. Like, they make the decision, right? There's a person at the top. And I think that's what's challenging about community is that we all own it. And so I think we create committees so somebody owns it, like, on paper, you know, so we could say, like, well, they're responsible, they're the responsible party. So, but that also then means we can blame them when shit goes wrong. And that's exactly what we do, right? It's like, it's just not taking personal accountability it's scapegoating or having somebody that can take the blame.

Right. And there's very little accountability in that setup because it's like, well, you're in charge of that. And then 6 months have gone past, you haven't done anything, but everybody's too shy, everybody's too polite to say anything. And so nothing gets done because we're all being polite. And it's like, well, okay, you're not hurting anyone's feelings, but you've also made your town worse for 1,800 people. Maybe it's okay to be blunt. Maybe it's okay to speak up. So I think that we have to figure out how to program in accountability because it's natural. It's our tendency not to want to be, to avoid conflict and not want to hurt anyone's feelings. But at the same time, if nothing's getting done, we're failing. So I'm a big, big believer. And the other thing though, too, it's like when you raise expectations, you give people a chance to do better. You give people a chance to get better and progress, which is the coolest feeling. I don't know, every day I'm trying to figure out what else can I do? Is there stuff I can get rid of in the house? What can I learn? How do I do something that makes me feel that today I got better in some way? And I think that we have to be sure to do that at the organizational and community level.

Yeah, I love that so much. Continual growth, that's growth to me. Now, it might look like a colossal failure. Like that, that learning, that growth might actually— and well, and the truth is, I think you said it, like, what's best and what's easier are rarely the same thing. Growth actually never feels easy, right? Then it's not growth. I mean, if it's— if you're actually growing, some— that means something is shifting, is something is changing. You're coming up against a natural inclination, and it's going to feel kind of gross, right?

But getting better feels so good every day.

For me, yeah, for me it does. Just like there's nothing I love more than— like, that's why I do this podcast, to be honest, because I get to talk to really cool people. And I learn. I constantly put myself in the way of learning from new people. It's my favorite feeling in the world to hear something that like sits in my brain and just goes— well, and my heart— and I go, oh my gosh, like, that's awesome. It's my favorite feeling.

I relentlessly change.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I think about this though, like, so that's progress. That is you at the end of the day can put your head down knowing that somehow you got better, that you made progress in your life, whether that is your mental health, physical health, your surroundings. Our surroundings are a big deal and affect how we feel. And I think that, so it's progress. And to live in most places means to have never experienced any progress. Most of our small towns have never improved in our lifetime. How depressing is that? Yeah.

Yeah. And is that story good enough for you in your community? You must just say that to people. Why are you accepting that? Why is that okay for you?

It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. I was down in Louisiana a few weeks ago and everybody was like, "Well, downtown, cars go too fast. It's not safe." And like, "Well, okay." There's 70 of you. You're the 70 that took a day off from work. I'm sure you run the town. I'm sure you are the most important people. Raise your hand if you think that cars should be prioritized over people. And not a single hand went up. And it's like, this is crazy. The 70 of you that are probably the most important in town all universally 100% agree on this policy issue, yet here we are. How does that happen? What is going on? So I think that's a tricky thing when it's like, yeah, you don't even— you all agree, yet you still can't even get this thing done. Why is that? What's going on? And that's a tricky one.

It is. So where do we start? I mean, where do we start with that? Like, if there's something where you get even a small grassroots movement around an idea, but let's say it is policy, let's say it truly does require the support or the funding or maybe a decision of an elected group of people like your city council or your, your economic development board. I don't know, park board. Our park board makes a lot of decisions for our public spaces, right? I mean, that, that's what they're elected to do. Do we just start by going and attending those meetings and creating real relationships with the people that hold those positions? Because that's where I would start, but What do you think?

Yeah, same. I think that there's often this disconnect between people really want all the same thing.

We want to be the best they can be, right?

Right. I run into this thing where it's like, well, people don't like nice things in my town. You should shut up now and stop saying things like everybody likes nice things. Everybody wants to feel connection. Everybody wants to be proud of their town. But when that self-esteem dropped off, we start to— and so communication, think about dysfunctional people. Lack of transparency, a lack of communication, an inability to learn from others, distrust. All those things happen. So nearly every time it's like, "Well, council thinks this," or, "The park board thinks this," or, "Here's what I've been..." But the people all think this and they're like, "Well, why don't you listen?" They're like, "Well, why don't you talk?" And it's like, you both think the same thing, you're just not communicating. Because at the end of the day, what is going to be best for council is also what's going to be best for the community. So I think it's really just It's a lack— Distrust breeds in the dark. It's sort of like if you don't know what's going on, you automatically assume it's the worst. So the best way to fix that is to talk, is to start to get to know one another and help people realize, no, we do all want the same thing. And this policy that right now that you think that you're holding up this policy, it'd be the same thing down in Houma, Louisiana. It's like, who all here would support vacant property legislation? 70 hands went up. And then the city councilwoman was like, "That's fine. I can go to council and try to get it passed, but will you show up on the day? Because I can guarantee the 5 deadbeats will show up. So will you show up on that day?" And it's like, exactly, exactly.

Right. Yeah, it's interesting when you think about it. And I love everything. I mean, seriously, now I'm thinking, how do we get Jeff to come to my region? I'm going to figure it out, Jeff. It's happening. Because I have, you know, there's my small town and then there's all the small towns in the 7 counties that we serve through Growing Small Towns. It's— there's a lot of people that need to hear from you because I think, well, okay, so a couple things as I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about the lack of transparency. And I often say this in companies that I work with too, right? Like people fill in the blanks, like whatever we don't say, however big those gaps are. So if we only give like an annual report There's 364 additional days of information and people are writing in their own narrative, right? So, so I would love to see all of our boards be much more open to being open public meetings as they ought to be and inviting people to come. Like, don't be so afraid of that, you know, like, because transparency to me is the way forward. I am, I am fully just an advocate for transparency in all communication. Doesn't mean you have to have all the answers. It means you'll share what you do know.

Right, right. Absolutely. And so I think, right, when better communication. I mean, I love when a mayor or somebody constantly is telling, here's what's going on, here's what we're up to. And it starts to dispel that, oh, you're just out there doing bad stuff all the time. I mean, it's obviously asinine and so stupid, but it's what happens. Everybody thinks, You're probably just out there doing evil. Right. And so good communication can help with a lot of that. And I love when good elected officials do that.

Well, and I think the other thing you commented on is that you said the deadbeats will show up. So define a deadbeat in your mind as it comes to this discussion. What does that mean to you? Who are those people?

Oh, I was referring to property owners, the property owners that aren't taking care of their property, that aren't maintaining. All of our towns are full of these vacant and underutilized property., and then they say, "Property rights. It's my property rights." It's like, no, property rights never meant it was your right to let your building collapse. It was somebody who's fixed up their building. It's their right to protect their investment. It's their right. Somebody that's building, it's their right. And that legislation was passed, or that court battle was won in the face of protecting investment, not protecting your right to be a scumbag.

Yeah. So the reason I think that I'm bringing this up is because We are the reason, I think, anyway, like locally, the reason that we don't want to enforce whether it's codes or we don't, you know, we don't want to piss anybody off, but we don't want to piss them off because they're the loudest and they show up to everything, right? So they're this constant thorn in the side. But when you really think about the fact that that's exactly what we're doing then is we're letting them, whose standards we would, we would love to just kick them right out of our community if we could. Most of us, most people feel that way. But so then everything we do caters to them. And that's really kind of nuts when you think about it like that.

It is. And it's like, for whatever reason, downtown, it's like, oh, well, we don't want to rock the boat. But if it was the house next to you, you'd be damn sure you would be on the phone and, you know, raising hell. And you'd expect the municipality to come out and find the person next to you. It's like, Yeah, that's, that's a house in the neighborhood. Like downtown is— everybody's self-esteem is wrapped up in the downtown.

Yeah. You know, for our community, and again, this is for anybody listening to this, we live— State Highway runs through, through the middle of our town. Now our Main Street is off of that, but you know, like our one stoplight is a stoplight on the State Highway. That stretch of road really should be a focus. For all of us.

It is. It's your identity.

It's our identity. Exactly. As people drive through our community, if they never stop, they make big assumptions about who we are and what we care about by what they see.

100%. So I'm going to evangelize about place.

Please.

I want to evangelize about place. I think place means everything, and place defines who we are. And your house or your block affects your self-esteem and affects who you are. I mean, it's your appearance. Too. I mean, you chose what you were going to wear when you left the house this morning. You chose how to do your hair and all those things because that changes how you feel about yourself. But it's also your announcement to the outside world. Here's how I want you to perceive me. I want you to perceive me as professional or fun or whatever it is. Your house does the same thing and your block does the same thing in your city. The appearance of your city, the design of your place, is not only announcement to everybody that drives past, here's who we are, here's what we value, here's the type of people we are, here's our standards, but it does the same thing to everybody that lives there. So if that's where you call home and it doesn't look good, you can bet there's going to be some apathy, some low self-esteem, some depression, some real problems because it's like we've figured it out. I'm the biggest believer that place is going to follow the food movement. That once we realized how— once we adopted this sort of McDonald's culture and everybody started eating bullshit, then they got all fat and unhealthy and we realized like, oh my God, we've got this health crisis. We need better food. I think that what we're starting to see in the research is starting to prove like looking at a McDonald's is just as bad as consuming it. Like literally looking at ugly places, places that are run down, places that aren't like I mean, you've looked at a rundown building and literally felt the weight of it and felt like, oh, this makes me sad. I don't want to be here. And imagine how so if you looked at it every day, if it was your surrounding, that's going to cause all kinds of mental health issues. So I think that that's why place matters so much is that it really affects our brain, our well-being so much more than we're giving it credit for. So if there's anything, I think that the biggest focus that we need to take is this great— because most towns can't figure out— they're not going to be able to install a beach or install mountains, so they better get comfortable with good urbanism. But it's what we used to have. It's like some people look at it, it's like, oh, well, that's too progressive. Like, no, that's what your grandfather had. Your grandfather had great urbanism, and that's all we need.

Is that not the truth? Oh my gosh. So let me tell you about a project that we're looking at. And I say we, it's like me and a handful of people that think this is a good idea. I mean, legitimately, that's where we're at. So the building that I, that I am operating in is an 8,500-square-foot building, but there's no apartments above. Most of our, most of the 500 and even 400 block of Main Street in Oakes, North Dakota has apartments above, many of which the proprietors who run the Main Street, you know, main floor business don't, don't own or operate. I mean, they own it, but they don't do anything with it, right? And I, I get that entirely because it's like, it's hard enough just to run a freaking business, like, let alone then being a property manager. But all of these properties now are sitting there, and if we don't do something, if we do not do something, we do not collectively buy them. Like, our idea is to do an investment pool, buy condo out the top half of these properties, let the business owners retain ownership of the main floor and renovate them all that we can in one fell swoop and create some vibrancy of residential living in our downtown.

It's really—

it's really not great. Well, and the buildings are there, Jeff. The buildings are there. Like, and so when people say, well, that's going to be expensive, and I say, and so will the alternative. What's going to happen if we don't do anything? Like, I get to say this out loud like this passionately to you because I, I feel like you'll, you'll understand it. It is going to be expensive, no question. We're going to be fixing the roofs of all of these, of many of these buildings, right?

Wait till they hear how expensive it is to build roads, right?

Right. And for, for our city, it's like, you guys should be championing this project all day long because it's— it immediately creates more tax base from no additional investment of infrastructure. Like, here we are, right? So it— and when I first said that to somebody, and I would never name who it is because it doesn't matter, it's just it becomes this pervasive thing. They're like, that seems more like a bigger city thing. And, and then I was like, that's how Oaks was built.

Oaks, right?

These buildings were built in the, you know, the 1910s and '20s. My building was built in about '24. Like, all of these buildings, that's what they look like. The reason they exist like this is because they were built like that over 100 years ago. What are you talking about? It's not a big city thing, you know, building up making use of an existing footprint that people say, "Oh, that's expensive and that's a big city thing." I'm like, "In what capacity?

In what way?" Yeah, it's so backwards, right? It's so funny. Yeah, you don't think that 80 acres of Walmart parking wasn't expensive? That's so expensive and it just transfers ownership to out-of-towners. And it's ugly and it spreads things out and it's all this more infrastructure when it— right, like the people that built your town got it best. They understood that it is like, sure, it's expensive, but you also like— that's how an investment works because you borrow money and then you slowly pay it back over the course of 30 years. So yeah, it's going to be expensive, but all those units are going to pay rent every month, and at the end of, at the end of it, it's all going to be paid back. And that's how that's kind of how we understand investment work. So, but it's denser, it's prettier, it's nicer. And like, we forget, like, that's a living— that's an environment that a ton of people want. Like, not everybody is at the age to want a single-family home, and we used to provide that type of housing. It's like, we need that housing desperately again.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting to us, you know, as we think about it, we— there's a community, a neighboring community about 70 miles away that's got about 30,000 people in it. So much, you know, much bigger than the scale of our community. Mm-hmm. But we, we brought 'em up here to talk about it cuz they did that in their community. They did an investment group, all private investment.

Love it.

Yeah, it was, it was so exciting cuz it's just like, well then you're not asking permission from anybody.

Right.

You know, you're saying it, I think, I think that's where I would encourage people to start. And I would love to hear your thought on this too, but it's like maybe start with the thing that every time you drive by it, you get a pit in your stomach.

Right.

We all have those things. I was just driving around the other day and I was like, God, I would fix that and I would fix that and I would fix that. And it's like, okay, then maybe who else is interested in fixing this? Who else wants to do something about it? What could it look like? Like, for me, it's just, I, I love to live in possibility. That's where I kind of, where I hang out. But, and I'm not saying people need to think like me, but to, to point it, to point your finger outside of you, it it feels extremely disempowering and like we're just going to be blown with the wind of whatever happens. And I would rather be a person that's like, no, we're going to make something happen.

Right, right. And I think, right, you're paying attention, but it's affecting everybody too. I mean, everybody that sees those things also is— it's changing their opinion of their town and themselves. And they have that pit in the stomach whether they realize it or not. So I love that you're at least paying attention. It's sort of like You ever have a project in your house that you overlooked forever and then you finally fixed it and you're like, why did I wait so long? Why did I do that?

All the time, Jeff. I have such a long list of stuff where I look at my husband and I'm like, if we just, we could throw a little bit of cash at this and maybe a day.

Right.

And we just, yeah. I mean, that's, yeah. You just go, oh my gosh, like that was such an easy thing. And I was so annoyed by it. I was annoyed by it all day.

And now every time I walk in that room, I'm like, I love it so much. This is great. Like why didn't I fix that 12 months ago? And I think it's the same, like, make a punch list, make a punch list of those things that you're seeing. Like, oh, this one bothers me, this one bothers me. And then literally go fix it. Like, it can't be— it's not impossible. It's not impossible. It's like a group of people could probably fix most of those things in an afternoon. And that's the way to ask for people's help. I think we, you know, people, I always hear this like, oh, nobody wants to volunteer these days. Like, no, nobody wants to sit in your stupid committee and have 10 conversations about the same thing. But if you ask them to go paint, if you ask them to pull weeds, if you ask them to dig a ditch, I bet you they would love, they would be so happy. They would say yes to that because you've given them clear work and that's the type of work that's satisfying.

Right, right. Yeah, death by committee is a legit thing in all of our towns, I think. And then, I mean, that's the thing too. I was just speaking to another small town and we were talking about the fact that if you can't get people to take over jobs, like if you have a board that you're trying to turn over or whatever, you can't get people to show up, then maybe it's because the way it's structured sucks and nobody wants to do it anymore. It doesn't mean the whole— so it's like if you just disband the way it is and you go, we wanna, we wanna, we want this outcome. So maybe it's city beautification, right? Okay, so maybe you had a gardeners club for 50 years, but you can't get anybody to be the president and the vice president and the secretary and the treasurer of the gardeners club anymore. Does city beautification or community beautification still matter, right? Maybe. I'm sure it does. So then how do you find a more organic way to let people— you know, it's like we let the process and the structure of stuff ruin the goal and the mission. And then—

exactly.

And then we get—

and then you get so ingrained in it. It's like, I mean, there's, there's chambers, like, of what— like the Chamber of Commerce, let's say. Here's a good example, like Yes, it made a ton of sense to have this organization build up local business 100 years ago, and now there's hardly any local business and all these chambers are still trying to figure out, "What's our role? What do we do?" And it's like, have you ever stopped to think that maybe your mission could be readdressed? Maybe you need to stop and think, we're just going to keep relentlessly doing this thing that might not make any sense. Pull back, pull back and say, "Well, oh, what if we changed our mission to making this town the nicest place to live?" What if we changed our mission to making it pretty? That would be meaningful. And so we do, we get in these, the organization itself becomes more important than the mission.

Or the outcomes that they're after, right?

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

I'd throw them all, I'd literally throw them all out to have somebody just make the town 1% prettier every day.

Yeah, isn't that great? Wouldn't that be great? Well, I just, that's, I mean, to me, that's the, significance of small incremental change. And that's what all of it is. And just every, like you said, every single day getting a little bit better if you individually instill that. And sometimes I think people need the belief that they can, you know. So that's where I feel like my role sometimes, I, in my community, I just, I'm like so enthusiastic to where like some people see me coming down the road and they're like, oh God, like, and she's coming. And like, yep, And I'm smiling and I'm giving you the wink and the gun and it's super fun. And we're gonna, you know, it's like, because we should— why are we not happy to—

it should be fun to be alive.

Yeah, I mean, it can get— it can be a slog sometimes. I get it. But ultimately, we should be doing this because we want everybody that we want ever— we want to create the best place that we are excited to invite people to. Like, that was a huge thing for me. So, you know, this particular building, It was because my grandparents bought it and they ran and they renovated it and they opened it and it was like this beautiful, important beacon of hope for people, right? And then once it started to kind of fall into disrepair, it literally weighed on me. Like, like you said, it weighed. I would walk by it and I was just like, speak to me, like you need to come and save me, you know? And I always joke, like my husband was like, it never talked to my husband, but it talked to me. And so, um, Here we are. And, and now I just am so proud to invite people here. I love nothing more than to say to people from Fargo, right, which is biggest city in North Dakota, 110 miles away from us. It's about a 2-ish, little less than 2-hour drive. And I love saying to people, you need to come down and see me in Oaks, right? Like, and they do. I brought a whole bus full of people from Fargo to Oaks. And it was It was just so cool. And I think we forget that sometimes it's personal invitation too. That's all relationship driven. You know, if you take the time to really get to know people, it can make such a big difference.

Right. And it really is simple. Like, make it cute, make it fun. I mean, like, it's really not that hard. People want to be with one another and they want to, you know, have friends. It should be fun. Like, none of this work has to be drudgery. It can all be a ton of fun. You can have beer and pizza at every single event and like nobody has to meet in the boardroom or run Robert's Rules of Order. Like, yeah, make everything cute. Like, that's how you win over people's emotions. And then I was trying to reiterate, like, you keep— if you win them over emotionally, the financial part will come.

Agreed. Yeah, I totally agree.

But the converse isn't true. So we just need to do this. And like, the good thing is we're all humans, so we all have access to this, this wealth of knowledge. It's like, well, what do I like? Well, I like fun. I like some beer, I like some pizza. I like hanging out with friends. I like talking. Oh, and I know that any— I like things that are cute. And I know anytime something gets a little bit better, it makes me happy and it makes me proud. And so it's really simple.

Yeah.

They're really simple things that I think that can make all the difference.

I love that so much. Make it cute and make it fun. How simple is that? Because the truth is, like you said, we throw money at problems all the time, and it doesn't change people's hearts. That's, that's the reason stuff doesn't change. Money's not a problem. We always say it's a problem, but it's not the problem. It's— nope, it's the emotional connection. It's the, the gooey feelings. I love it. I love it so much. And that's, it's 100% why we do what we do. That's also why arts are a key part of programming through what, through what we do, because art is just a really cool way for you to experience some of those cool feelings that you don't get through other means, you know, whether it's physically creating something or you're listening to a performance. Yeah, it just opens us up in all sorts of ways. So bringing more art to my community is a big deal too, to me.

Yeah, because at the end of the day, if your community is cuter, if it's prettier, like, you're going to be prouder of it. You're going to be prouder of yourself. You're more likely to keep it, to tend to it. You're going to be more likely to take care of it. You're going to be more likely to show up to council, like, your community is a reflection on you. So the best way I think to get people to lift up people is to make sure that when they pull into their town, they're like, "Hell yeah, this place is gorgeous and I get to call it home, which means like I'm cooler than people that live in shitty towns." Yeah, right.

Well, and why wouldn't you want that? And again, I, so I just want to share this for everybody because a couple weekends ago we did this really cool, we had gotten a grant that we applied for from the North Dakota Council on the Arts. So we had this cool, just immersive all-day event of art and artists, and it was really, really fun. And one of the girls that— well, okay, there's these two women that I know that I met at this organization in Fargo. One of them was on that bus tour when we opened our facility. That's how we opened it, was with this bus tour. These two gals brought 8 of their— I mean, we're talking like early 20s-aged friends. Down to this event. And then they like went on a bar hop in Oaks. And like, you know, and they just thought our small town was so fun and so connective and so lovely. And, you know, I was just like, this is what I want. I want to be a place where this group of type of people would want to come here. It was awesome. I mean, and all they did was invite— it was one of their hometowns, you know, it's not like, okay, from nowhere, but I, it's just, I can't even— and then it's really fun because people would say like, oh, I saw that group of kids out at the bar, you know, it's so funny. I was like, Aren't they delightful? You know, it's like, can you even imagine what it would feel like if you had more of that more of the time?

Right.

It's energy, you know, it's— you can all feel it.

Yeah. I want nothing more than to go places where there's a bunch of people already hanging out and like, that's just so fun and so alive. And I think that's— yeah, that's all we need.

Absolutely. Okay, so, um, what's your favorite way to work with people? Because I want to leave them with that because we'll, we'll link to everything you want in the show notes. You've got a great Facebook group where you share a lot of your thoughts. But like, if people are listening to this and like, oh my gosh, I want Jeff to come to my town, what does that actually look like? Do you do consulting? Do you do speaking?

Yeah, yeah, I do a lot of speaking engagements. I do a lot of speaking engagements and, you know, the presentations. I've been doing a lot of Civic Pride workshops lately and I really like that. And it's, you know, there's kind of a half-day version or full-day version, but it really is like, it's It's a little bit like an intervention. It's like, okay, let's talk about how your town's hurt you and let's be honest about the things that are wrong. Because every town, every day it's like, oh, today's the day, we're so close to getting better. Let's stop. Let's stop and just admit all the shit that's messed up and then start to talk about how we deal with that and then start to come up with this really incremental strategy to get a little bit better and talk about how Pride works and talk about how we combat apathy and put together a campaign to deal with that. So that's something I really I enjoy doing. And then I really like just some communities will bring me in and just like, hey, will you meet with our elected officials? Will you meet with our boards or committees and talk through some of this stuff and facilitate these roundtable discussions? And I love that too. So yeah.

It's going to be my goal to get you to North Dakota. Have you ever been to North Dakota? I suppose you have because you lived in Montana.

I drove through a couple times in my old Scout and drove through, stopped in Fargo and Minot made it, I recall. Perfect. Yeah, wide open spaces for sure.

Wide open spaces. So we're going to bring you here.

I'd love to. I'd love to come out and work with you.

Thank you so much for sharing all of this good stuff with our audience. It's really, really a fun conversation. I knew it would be. Your writing is excellent. You do a great job of— I have to point out, you had said somewhere, it said what you lack in patience in eloquence you make up for in passion and honesty. I was like, oh my gosh, that feels like me. Like, I'm not very patient and I say like 1,000 words when 10 would have done fine. But I'm very passionate and I appreciate your passion for the work that you're doing. It really matters. More people need to be talking about the people side of community development. It matters deeply. So thank you.

Wonderful. Yeah, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. I appreciate what you're doing as well. And so I really appreciate you having me on the show.

Kay, we'll talk to you soon. Come back, okay?

All right, take care.