Moments of Growth: Community Engagement

In this episode of the Growing Small Towns show, you are going to hear, uh, the compilation of folks that we brought back onto the show, or maybe they were on the show for the first time, to really discuss the impact of growing small towns in, in, on community. This, this general topic is community engagement, and we're going to talk to people that that have actually taken either something they've heard or something they picked up or ways of thinking about community development, community engagement back to their own towns. Some of the people in this episode are technically responsible for it, and there's air quotes around that in the sense that maybe they actually work for either the EDC that's in their community or they work for an organization that's kind of tasked with this work. But you're also going to hear just a broader spectrum of people, like people from a school. And so the point simply being, what does it look like to actually engage the community in a more broad way? And what are some of the things that we've brought to the table topically that has actually moved the needle for them? Again, I just think we, we believe so strongly that when people get better, everything gets better. And the reason that's important is because if you're a person listening to this and you have a big idea, or you have even a—

let's—

maybe we don't need to give it a size. Maybe it's just an idea. It could be a tiny little thing that you want to see happen in your community. The things that you pick up along the way, the skills that you learn, whether it's communication skills, conflict management, any sort of thing that helps you relate to other people better, That's a skill that once you develop it, it follows you everywhere. And so community engagement is really just thinking about the idea of like, how do communities get better with, through, through the, the addressing or the introducing of new ideas and new concepts? We believe that's a core part of our work at Growing Small Towns. And so instead of taking my word for it, have a listen to a bunch of different people throughout our, our history that have been impacted by just thinking differently about things. Enjoy this episode. It's a good one. Welcome to the show, Anna. So good to see you.

Hi, it's good to see you too.

Yeah.

So people that follow Growing Small Towns maybe know that it's been kind of a tough year for Oaks Public School. Right? And just, it's been— there's been a lot going on with our school. We had a, had a failed bond referendum. I've talked about that at length, you know, just kind of bigger picture outside of just the community of Oaks. Um, so as the superintendent of our school, um, I have always felt it's super important that what we're trying to do here, that we do everything we can to support the school. Um, and sometimes that looks really clear, like in really simple, clear ways, and sometimes it's you know, like maybe having a guest on a podcast that helps illustrate work you're doing, right, that looks different than, than what's been traditionally done in education. But from your perspective, what do you think have been kind of the biggest impacts to Oakes and to the school, having us here trying to support you in whatever way we can?

Well, I, you know, obviously not being a superintendent in a different school besides ours, I just think that we have a unique relationship with you. And I mean, you're just this avenue that other towns don't have that when I talk to other superintendents, because if we need some help with the community or we need to reach out, you're the, you're the go-to. So right away it's like, oh, we want to do some partnerships. Well, let's reach out to Growing Small Towns, or we need to have an avenue to communicate and to share out information. Let's go to Growing Small Towns because Becky will be able to help us, you know, find those outlets or those resources. And just those partnerships or even hiring TJ to do that, that's been big for us, right? Because you were the person that came to us and said, hey, I think this would be a great idea. And she's helped us in more ways than just reaching out to people. So it's just an avenue or some help that we have because you've got that expertise in it where I don't, right? The expertise is my school. But to have that communication and that partnership with somebody in the community is big for us because one of our goals is involving people in our community and our businesses because this is the hub of the town. You know, in most towns, in our little towns, this is where our kids are. This is where activities take place. This is, you know, the things at night that we do. So somebody in the community to help us that has that expertise and we have our expertise and then working together, you know, to create that bridge.

So, yeah, I think it's so important and I think we have a lot of work to do. I mean, I don't think we like— we haven't nailed this yet as far as just because collaboration Collaboration is really hard. It takes a lot of effort. It's time-consuming. And you know that, right? Even as you were sharing about the facilities project, that whole process of getting out into the community, it— I do think sometimes people think collaboration in smaller communities especially should just be natural or easier because we're smaller. I actually sometimes think it almost— it becomes harder. Because there's a lot of informal groups that are, that are meeting, that are sharing information, and you have to— we have to know where they are. And so I love that you even shared all of that, because I think that is what I hope we are, is a resource for you. Like, when you have something that you're trying to accomplish, that you do come to us and we say, okay, what can we do? What role can we play? Like, I think even early on when we just did an open Q&A with you and your board, and we recorded that for people to hear. I appreciated your openness to do that so much. And again, I think it just gives people a different— not level of access to you exactly, but just a different mechanism for learning about the whole scope of everything. And it was at such an important time when the information was really, really important that people got.

And I think sometimes— I don't know how to describe us, but at the school, it's like we're the ramrod. We're always having to send out these messages that some people don't take. In the same way that other people take it. And sometimes softening of that message or sending it through another filter is very helpful. Like you said that when we were doing the referendum, you know, you knew little niches of people and sometimes the way that we would approach it, you guys could say, well, maybe think about this, you know, so appreciated that filter for it to go through also.

So, well, when you think, and this, this isn't directly related to Growing Small Towns, but when you think about small towns and you think about the changing nature of education, You know, what do you, what do you think are, because, okay, so I'll just, I'll back up and say a, a big premise of this work at Growing Small Towns is the core belief that when people get better, everything gets better. Okay. Like just kind of full stop. And that could be pick any skill, right? If people decide to develop it and actually get better at it, there's an enormous ripple effect of that, you know, just across a community like Oaks. What are the— when you think about the makeup and the kind of the attitudes maybe, and kind of the mental processing, the, you know, we would call them— a lot of people call them soft skills. They're anything but, in my opinion, right? Maybe 21st century learning, the 4 pillars of that. We could look at that, right? What do you think communities need to develop the most in themselves to embrace what's coming? For education?

I just think the fear of not moving forward and trying new things. Okay, for an example, I was just, you know, you see social media, and one of the biggest things that people are talking about right now is schools saying we're not going to have cell phones. And I hear people's responses of like, well, we need to just get back to paper and pencil, or let's get rid of all of those devices. And, you know, to say to people and have that understanding of like, but that's not the world that our kids are growing up in. You know, every one of the adults has one of these. And to try to get rid of one of those and to take it away from the kids, well, that's not fair to the kids because that's not the world that they're growing up in. Yeah, is this take away, you know, some focus or whatever? Everybody has their own opinion, but it's just a matter of, you know, people in our little towns, we tend to want to— and maybe it's not even little towns, it's just where we're from, right? It's just us. We like things the way that they are. And in order to move forward, it's scary. It might not align with our values our beliefs, but the fact that, you know, you understand that moving forward because you look at the business world and what our kids need to have. We understand that as a school that we have to prepare our, our products or our kids or our customers in order to move out into that world of work. Because if our kids don't have the skills to be able to communicate, um, uh, be able to cooperate, be able to use technology, they're not going to be prepared to be citizens that go beyond our little world. They need to be global people and be able to function out there.

So, yeah, I think that is— thank you for sharing that. And it came to you immediately. And I definitely agree. I mean, really, what I love too is that one of the commitments of our school is a growth mindset. And that's essentially what you're talking about, right? This difference of saying, like, this fixed vantage point of this is how it is, this is how either I grew up or this is how I liked it, or this is how school was for me. And all these kids are losing. And, you know, again, we can demonize technology all we want, or we can say there are some parts of it that are challenging for sure. And it's a reality. And working with reality, I think, is a really key thing. And I just— the reason I even asked the question, Anna, is just because that's— if that's something that our programming or our presence in our community and other communities can help to do is usher in more of a growth mindset. Where there's some nuance and there's some gray instead of everything just being so black and white. I think that's a key piece of what we hope to help shift. It's a cultural thing in some respects, but it's a between-the-ears thing for all of us and deciding whether we want to be open to things or we want to stay really closed and fixed.

Well, I think even you guys hiring TJ, people are like, well, what do we need that for? And until you explain to them the things that she's doing for us and understanding that we have declining enrollment. Our, our, our population of folks is going down. And so then we need to work a little bit harder. So we need to sell ourselves, expose ourselves, you know, provide help when people, you know, come in. So I think that things change and things move along no matter how hard we don't want them to.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, the change.

Yeah. Well, I, um, as always, I want to thank you not just for your time today, but really for all the effort that you put in, especially this last year. You and your board worked tremendously hard, and I know the outcome wasn't what we hoped it would be, but the facility still needs repairs, and so we will, we will soldier on and we will figure it out, right? And I, I appreciate having you at the helm of the school. You're really, really good at your job, and we, we need you in this community, and we need our school in this community. So thank you for always being such a An advocate and a champion for what we're trying to do too. It really does mean a lot to have you in our corner and know that we're in yours as well.

Thank you.

Thanks, Claire.

Hi, Sonia. Welcome to the show.

Oh, the show. Rebecca, it's a show.

It is a show. It's the Growing Small Town Show.

Okay, cool.

Welcome to it. Yeah, welcome to it. So you, my friend, are involved in lots of things. As of the moment of this recording, you will be heading into your final school board meeting. How many years have you consecutively served? Or maybe, maybe not consecutively, but in total?

12 consecutive years. Yes.

Okay. Yeah. And you've, you've been through some major challenges with our local school board. And as I was just telling you, and I will go on the record to say that you are One of the most devoted school board members I have ever personally witnessed, and I've talked to lots of people in lots of communities, and we're gonna miss you. Thank you for— thank you for everything you've done for us.

You're welcome. I've enjoyed it. I still enjoy it, and I'm glad to be able to step down while I'm still enjoying it.

Yeah, I think that's important. Yeah, you don't want to be on your way out and be so glad and never want to see those people or any of the faculty again, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you've interacted with Growing Small Towns in a number of different ways. I mean, we've, we've only been operating for a couple of years, but, you know, we've worked with the school a little bit. We're working on this new, this new grant coming up that we're meeting tomorrow or in 2 days on. You've been a part of Dickey County JDA. Well, we've worked with, with that group. So what do you feel is, in your opinion, your mind, being a lifelong resident of Oakes, North Dakota, um, how many generations of your family?

Um, 4.

Okay.

Yeah, that's plus below me. So my, my great-grandparents emigrated here from Nebraska. So my grandparents, my parents, and myself— I would be a 4th generation. And I have a 5th, of course. And, uh, you know, you never know, maybe the 6th will be here at some point.

Yeah, hopefully, right? So again, longstanding family, have seen lots of things. Your dad, um, Bernie, was an incredible— not only advocate for Oaks, but did a lot to really build this community in some really specific and meaningful ways. Um, so what do you think is the value of our organization? Like, what's the point of growing small towns? What do you— why do you think it matters, if at all? And again, what a leading question, right? Like, I don't know what you're going to say. I was like, whatever, whatever feels true for you, Sonya, is what we want to hear.

So yeah, I, I think that there are a lot of times there are things that we think are really good ideas, but we don't have time to do it. But oh gosh, if I just had time, boy, I would latch on to that and I would do it. And I feel like it's great to have some competent, excited, and some people who, who that is, that, that's the time that, that's what they're here for. That's what you are here for. You have the time and energy to commit to these things that sometimes we just have the idea, but I simply cannot follow through on it. But I'm glad to see that things are being done, such as the housing study. I like, I like seeing the art things that are going on. The beautiful facility that's available for a wide variety of things. It's there and it's, it's becoming, I think, more well used. But to me, the greatest value is just recognizing what is out there that, that might be beneficial to our community and having the time, energy, and expertise to dig in and do stuff. Stuff. And I know it takes some pushing because you can't do it all, but it takes the right support and the right coordination of the right people to do the right things. And you're there doing it, so thank you for that.

Oh, you bet. I, and I think, I think one of the, one of the reasons I appreciate you so much— and again, I truly like your work on the school board, it speaks for itself— but I think, um, in that work, you are frequently outside of this community, you know, either networking with people at a state level or because you're on the State School Board Association. Those, those kinds of things open your eyes to the fact that we might have a lot of talent here locally, and we do. There's no doubt about it. This is a very, really cool community in terms of the people that actually live here. And there's always things happening in other parts of the state that we can learn from, right? If we can link arms with people outside of, of our community, it's just an expansion of that talent and that skill. I don't know if you want to speak to that at all, but that's what I see in you, and that we share that lens of collaboration, resource collection, if you will. I just think it's important.

Sure. You know, I'm on the State Board of Public School Education and the State Board of Career and Technical Education by virtue of a single appointment, but it's two different boards. And so typically we meet in the morning. As one board and then the afternoon as the other board. And to me, it's been fascinating and eye-opening to see and hear what's going on in other school districts and in career and technical education around the state. But some of the most interesting things are the conversations we have at lunch about what's really— how other schools do things differently and how different administrators do things differently. And I enjoy bringing some of that back and saying, well, This superintendent said that he does it this way, but everybody doesn't do things the same way. And the fact that there's not always just one right answer, but I think too often— well, one thing I valued on our school board is when we can have school board members that didn't grow up here, such as your husband, because otherwise we're just in such a rut. Well, that's the way we've always done it.

I know.

So you assume that everybody does it that way. So just the eye-opening experience of being aware of what's— that things are not done the same everywhere.

Right. And I appreciate that you even said that. I mean, so my spouse is technically what we'd call a transplant, right, by way of marriage to me. And I think there's room in this community, and I think we need to all actively pursue the making of the room for, for outside perspectives and, and not to dismiss people out of hand because they, they're not from here. And honestly, that is not just an Oaks thing across. Like when I talk to people from other communities, it is, it can be very challenging to be a transplant because that's, that's the first thing people say, you know, is, well, you're not from here, like you don't know how we do it here. And, you know, sometimes I just want to say, and good for them that they don't. And they can say, but what if you tried it this way? So I think it's fun to hear you even say that because that's a— it's a way of thinking that I think we both seem to share and value in terms of how we get better, how we grow, how we prosper. So I think the last thing is that you've been a part, at least have seen maybe some of the ways that we get opportunities to actively promote this community. There have been some very cool things that have come to Oakes, and I'm not at all in any way saying that it's because of me, but I think we are putting a spotlight in Oakes and maybe a bit more of an out loud kind of way. And that kind of goes against our human nature as stoic Midwesterners, doesn't it? You know, to brag about ourselves, be proud, say it out loud. But you've also seen that shift in education, like when you're trying to recruit teachers. That's a really challenging thing. And we have to be willing to say out loud, this is a— this is the best place to be. Here's why you should love it. What do you— I mean, what do you— you've seen a huge shift in that, Sonya, in the time that you've lived in Oaks. So what can, if anything, what can you share about that?

Well, interesting. You should bring up hiring teachers because even in the 12 years, which doesn't seem so long in the whole scheme of things that I've been on the school board, Early on in my tenure on the board, we would get quite a few applicants for our teaching positions. And I've been told that even 10 or 12, 20 years before I was on the board, we would get 50, 75 applicants for a position.

Incredible.

It is.

To imagine.

And so if there was a if they forgot to have a cover letter or if Oaks was spelled O-A-K-S, for example, it was just rejected out of hand because there were so many to pick from. Well, that's not how it is anymore.

Certainly not.

We're very fortunate in some cases even to get applicants at all, particularly for the specialties like the, or the, the, the harder to fill music, high school science, those kind of things. We're just pleased if we can get 1 or 2 applicants, and sometimes we don't. And so one of the things I can remember coming up during my time on the board is that sadly, the distance to the nearest Walmart is a reason, or McDonald's, right? Is a reason that some people would choose to live or not to live in a community. And that's really sad to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think I get that. I get that knee-jerk reaction is just like, are you kidding? That's what your quality of life is? And yet I think you also have presented yourself as a person in this community, to me anyway, as we've talked, that we can be sad and we can be even mad about it, I guess, if we want to be. We also have to figure out how to work with the reality of it, right? And I just think that is such a— it's a progressive way to think about challenges, Sonya, and you've always approached them that way, which I just, I find really refreshing and helpful because it keeps us focused on what can we do about it rather than being upset about the problem.

Well, I find so many reasons to enjoy living in a small town, how much simpler and faster I can do some things than if I was in Fargo or in the Twin Cities. And I just appreciate that so much. And I, I appreciate that you and your, your folks and the people that are working with you are, are trying to use some of those advantages to showcase our community. And I don't think we need to be ashamed of it at all. I don't, I don't think we have to pretend that we're, we're humble because I think we can be proud of our community. We've got a lot to be proud of.

Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you again for all you've done for, for our town, for being a great, honestly, a great champion for our work kind of from the beginning. I know that what we started was weird and out there and people were like, what is she doing? I mean, that, that, and that was a hard hill to climb. I think once we got open and we started to do some things, it started to make a lot more sense. And your support's been, been really important to me. So I want to thank you not just for what you do for Oaks, but what you've done for us, what you do for me. It's wonderful to have people like you in our community.

Well, I'm glad to do it. And I will also share with you that I don't think that hill is completely climbed yet.

Oh no.

Climbed?

Clumb?

I think it's climbed. For sure. For sure.

Yeah. I don't think everybody knows. And, you know, even I remember when you came to Dickey County JDA and we're like, I said, well, I don't know exactly what she's going to do, but I think it's going to be good. I think it's going to be okay. Well, we should do this. We should to support this. And right, and we have, and I think it's been good. But I don't think the whole perception out there is completely— I don't think there are still many people who don't understand. And you know, quite honestly, I, I don't still understand all you do. And I think there's a perception that there— boy, the city is really spending a lot of money on you and on Taylor and on whatever. And I'm like, well, uh, I don't think the city is putting a lot of money in, but there's tax, you know, there's the Dickey County JDA, there's the city, there's OEI. And I, you know, it, it's fair. It's, it's a tangled web of funding and stuff, and it's not easy to understand. But we need to, you know, being on a— from the school board side, it— everything has— needs to be transparent.

Yes.

It's somewhat, you know, it's somewhat less so in some of my other roles. And then, you know, I'm used to just being, oh yeah, it's a public meeting. Everybody's got to know, got to release that. Then I get into other things that, oh, wait a minute, I guess, you know, it's not that way here. We can talk outside of a meeting in other organizations I'm involved in.

Correct.

Yeah, correct. Yeah. And that's honestly part of what we're hoping to do is to tell the story of the work. That we're doing in these really specific ways. Because if people don't have a need for our work, they wouldn't have a clue what we're doing. And so it's on us a little bit for sure to talk a bit more about what it is that we're doing. But it's also on us just to keep showing up every day and be open to the questions. I think that's— so with this point, and then we'll wrap. I will just say to anybody listening to this, especially if you're local to me and you are like, you either don't think you like what I'm doing or you don't get what we're doing, walk through the front door and sit down and talk with me because I will tell you, you know, there's no secrets being had here. It's wide open. I can't, I just can't actually ferret out every little pocket where people are feeling disgruntled or upset or whatever, right? Um, but we are— we're very open. We will share— we'll share the reasons why we're doing what we're doing, what we're here to try to accomplish. Um, open book, pretty much.

So sounds good.

Yeah, thank you so much for being here, Sunny. I appreciate you.

All right, thank you.

Hey, Matt, welcome to the show, friend.

Thanks for having me. It's great to see you.

Always good to see you, Matt. So You have famously— you were famously involved with my first contribution into this organization. I talk about it a lot because you really illustrated from the start, like before we had the building, before we were what we are now, right? You illustrated the point that, that you got behind me as a person because at that time, I mean, we were an organization. I had my exemption from the IRS. But that was about it. It was me and my big ideas. And so you're a huge, important part of our story and have been a consistent champion and advocate for me. And so I'm super happy to see your face today, as always.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I think, you know, I think back to that moment when you're talking about your vision and those of us who've been doing this a long time, we need We need people, you know, people who, who can go into their communities and, and make a huge impact. And I think my reaction when you were talking about it was, thankfully, we've got someone, because a lot of times in economic development, when you go into a community, people say, well, you know, how can you help us? And we want to. But we can't be everywhere at once. We need those, those local partners, those local champions. And, and you have that in spades. I knew that from the moment I met you that, you know, Rebecca was going to do something big. Her vision was spot on. Her intentions were, were, were great. You know, you were doing it for all the right reasons. And so it was super easy to see that and been doing it for a long time and run through lots of people. And it's like, I found, I found one. Holy crap, let's go. And you get to see, you know, I'm fortunate in the position that I am that you get to see those things and you're not the only person out there. I mean, there have been others.

Of course not.

It was, you know, it was super obvious that you were moving in the right direction. And so, you know, I'm super grateful to have been a tiny part of that ride. And what's interesting about it too is that You know, you have shown people it's possible. And the way in which you found your way was difficult. You weren't getting broad public support, though you should have, and though other communities should be pouring their support into people like you. But your sheer will and determination, along with your husband's, because I want to make sure he's included in this, I'm sure at some point he looked at you and went, Oh, why are we doing this again?

Plenty of times we sometimes have those conversations. It's been really hard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and that's just the fact of the matter. And so I'm grateful for both of you. But you have woken up a lot of other communities in states, not just North Dakota, but all of the surrounding states where people have said, how did they do that? And when I say they, I think sometimes they look at Oakes Sometimes they look at the county and it really boils down to sheer will and determination from you and your husband to say, no, we're going to see this thing through. And you've got people trying to replicate it all over now. And, and the nice thing is you have paved that way and they're going to have to find their own way. But you have, you've absolutely demonstrated that it is possible and the extraordinary things that can come out of it. Um, the people you brought to your community, the facility you built, um, it's, it's really positive for the entire region. And when I say region, it's, it's not just North Dakota, it goes into South Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota. Um, it's, it's been incredible.

Oh my gosh, well, thanks, Matt. That's just so— that's so kind. It's so kind of you to say, honestly. Um, so I, I would love to hear what you think is, um, What do you think? Besides, okay, so like, because you're right, I think I've— when I've talked about this project, um, I get asked to speak about this project, right? People ask me, and the question is always like, how did you do it? And I'm always really honest with people, you know, it took— it was a ton of personal risk. That's what it was. I, I had to have a willingness to do that because we wrote a business plan, of course we did, um, but everybody unless, unless what you're selling or what you're doing is so clear and there's such a clear market for it. Like this programming is not like that. So, right, what I said we were going to do theoretically, conceptually and programmatically, we haven't changed direction at all. But exactly how we're doing that and where our revenue sources are coming from, it's totally different than what I put down on paper. Right. And so I think there is just a— there's a truth to that. That when you're gonna start something like this, it's, it's being resilient, it's being adaptable, it's being iterative. Like you have to, you have to know right away like when to pivot and to do it quick, you know. And for us too, I think a huge piece truly was collaborations, you know, finding, finding the like, the like-minded and people that have hearts for the work like we do that had this, you know, and that sometimes came in the form of organizations. It wasn't just individuals, but it's always an individual within an organization that you connect with. And I think sometimes people think, well, we're just going to ask businesses for money, you know, from a nonprofit perspective. And it's like, no, you're, you're gonna actually have to align with a human in that organization because that's how these things get done. Then they advocate for you, right? And that's exactly what happened with you. You know, I didn't just go to your company, I talked to you and you advocated on our behalf.

Absolutely. And I think, I think you're— you nailed it. It's, it's not it's not just the facility that you have, and it's not just companies saying, hey, we want it. You have to have people that can see the vision and understand the benefit. And, um, you know, it— that's, that's a great point. I mean, I just talked about how, you know, your facility is trying— is, you know, there's communities all over trying to replicate it, and they talk about Growing Small Towns, they talk about your facility, they talk about what you do and they've had interaction with you and they immediately saw what I saw and they, well, we want that. Well, you don't just get it by building a space, right? It's not going to work. You have to have those connections and you have to have that shared vision and you have to find people that have your level of passion, though I will say that is tough to duplicate some percentage of your passion. They have to have that at least. And then it can be successful. But you can't just put a facility together and say, well, if I make it, people will show up, this will naturally occur. It's a big step. But to your point, I mean, you have to make those connections within different organizations and you have to find those people that understand the value or can see the value because it is— I bet that's a tough business plan to write and say, well, I think we could make money here, but I'm not really sure.

Well, and at the end of the day, we can literally say anything we want to say. And the bank, as long as you are actually fundable and will sign personal guarantees, you know, and that's what we did. I mean, as long as you're willing to do that, they're probably going to finance your project. Do you know what I mean? As long as everything pencils out and big picture, they're not looking at that business plan anymore. And frankly, neither am I because like, what I'm doing every day, I now have a different, a more— what's cool for me, I think, is there's a clarity. There's almost a clarity and an affirmation of why I started this thing. Like, it hasn't gotten— it hasn't in any way become like less certain. I've actually just become more certain. And I think the local economic development work really, really showed me that, you know? Yeah, just like— and also, also where I fit, I think. You know, we're talking about these like specific types of people, right, that have passion or whatever. I think the other thing about me that I think makes this work is that it's a really true, unique— it's a beautiful little Venn diagram of like what I really care about, what I'm really equipped to do, and what I'm willing to put my neck out to achieve, right? Like it's, it's helping people figure out what role they could play. In something and giving, and then, and then rounding out what they don't have so that they can. And sometimes it's seriously just support. Yeah, you know, because if you're doing something really unique or different or kind of unusual for a small community, it is extremely lonely. I mean, running a business in a small town can be super lonely regardless, but you then you add on top of it something that's kind of weird or people don't know or aren't familiar with, and then it's like, you know, you almost feel like you're wearing some sort of scarlet letter, like it's that you feel that oddly ostracized at times, right?

You're exactly right. You know, I've been—

it's—

I'm fortunate enough to have a job where you get to, um, advocate for people to have, you know, fulfill their dreams of business ownership. And, um, a lot— I can say in all honesty, you know, when I first started, I was like everyone else, um, you know, I don't want to say I was judgmental, but maybe skeptical. Like, hey, I want to start a business that does this. And when it landed outside the category of normal, I was the first one to be like, yeah, of course I'll help you. That's my job. In the back of my mind, I'm like, I don't get it. I don't understand. Can it even be a business?

Yep.

If I had a dollar for every business that I thought, like, I don't understand, there's no way, that ended up being successful. I'll tell you what, it just shows how wrong people can be.

Right. We're actually not that good, are we, at picking winners? We're not actually that good at it.

No, it boils down, it boils down to the people that are launching that business and the passion and the sheer will and determination because the people are starting the business because they know the market. It's not some half-baked— I mean, I've got some examples. I don't want to, you know, call them out, but I was like, just outside my area, and I'd be like, this is a business. I can't fathom it. And now they've opened like 3 stores and they're doing really well. And I drive by that all the time and I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't let my questioning of that get in the way of me helping them.

Right.

Because I'm an idiot for not knowing that this thing is— can be super successful. And I've got some good friends that, you know, later in life, I, you know, I'm very self-critical of myself. So— or very self-critical. So when I get something wrong, I take note of it and be like, well, I'm not going to do that again. And so now that I'm more mature, when I see those people that have passion, even though I don't understand exactly what they're trying to do, I don't care, I'm just going to dive in with them. And I've got some good friends up here in Grand Forks that, you know, first time they sat in my office, they pitched a business. I had no idea what they're talking about. Matter of fact, we joke it took like 8 meetings for them to explain to me what the heck it was they did. That's funny because I couldn't help them. I'm like, I don't understand it. I understand how this is a business. I don't know who these people are. I can help you with this business plan. I can help you find financing. I can help you get support if I understand it, but I have no idea. And they tease me incessantly, rightfully so, because I— it was so over my head. But when I finally got it, I was able to help bring some tools together and they got launched and now they've just blown up.

That's—

but again, awesome. That's such a— it's, it's so great. Like that you're— first of all, that you're humble enough to just say like that you've, you've been in that position. And I think, yeah, I think that what you're saying and maybe and I might just be wanting this to be what I hear you saying. So like you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think, I think at the end of the day, the question we have to ask ourselves is, you know, okay, so maybe we don't fully understand it. If we're in a position to support this person, what is going to be the harm in doing what we can to support them? Like, We, you know, again, what's the worst that can happen if a business starts and it doesn't take off? Why is that the biggest thing we're afraid of?

Exactly.

Why, why, why should that be the reason that we— why would we say no because we're unsure if it'll be successful? It's not going to kill you. It's not going to kill anything like your community, your Main Street. If somebody starts something and it doesn't take hold, I think it's like there's a familiarity or a comfort with failure. And that's— there's air quotes around that because I just think I, I want us to incentivize everybody to try.

Exactly.

Like knowing that we're not always going to know what's going to take off and what's not.

And yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. And you're just way more articulate than I am, as usual. But, you know, another way to think about it is that's where true diversity in economies come from.

Totally.

As well. And yes, it took a while for me even to reflect on again I never said no to anybody ever, and it never impacted. But without a doubt, you know, early in my career, you know, 15 years ago, I was helping people thinking to myself, like, I don't get this, and trying to help them protect themselves when maybe it didn't go because I didn't really know how all the pieces put together. And then watching them go when I had no ideas again, I reflected and went, you know what? Turns out there's a big world out there that I don't know everything about, and it's really more about the people and making sure they're prepared and then giving them the support they need. And you're exactly right. There's no downside in it. If it's something they really want to do and you have the ability to provide that support, you provide it. And when things do blossom out of something you didn't really understand, Now you've diversified the economy. That's exactly the job duty. And, and that's what communities thrive on, is a diverse economic base. And you only get that with the weird stuff that people don't understand.

That's right.

Like me.

It takes weird people, not like truly weird people, but like people with the vision and people with the— I always, I always say like, okay, so you don't like the idea. But you know who they are. It's their, it's their thing. Like, it's not your idea. So what? Like, they, they have it again. It's almost just like this idea of making room for, right, for all sorts, because like, literally, we are, we're all trying to be communities that people love to call home. Like, that's the mission of Growing Small Towns too, right? We want that. That's what we want. And so that means we have to have different things. That appeal to all sorts of different people because different things attract different humans. And so making room kind of mentally and in our hearts and in our brains, right, for different ideas and for different people. And I mean, that's, and it's a tall order sometimes. It can be tough and I get all of that, but that's why we're so passionate about, you know, helping the people that have ideas, the people that are trying to get cool stuff to happen, trying to at least, if nothing else, be that constant source of support and cheerleading. And if we can connect them to resources that they don't know about, great. That's, that's what we're here to do.

That is the role. And again, if you have that ability to, to provide that support, even if it's emotional support or defend them in public, such a big deal. It is so impactful to those business owners and those people taking the risk because it is a lonely place. And, you know, I'm— it's lonely in small communities. It's lonely in large communities. There's a lot of self-doubt. I mean, that's just ingrained in everyone that if I'm taking this risk, is it going to fly or not? I'm sure there's a lot of nights you laid in bed and stared at the ceiling wondering, oh, is this going to go or not? And what have I done? And And to hear people constantly say, well, that's a stupid decision, it's just not helpful.

Right.

And, and that's, that's sometimes what you need is you need that, that support. Back to that company in Fargo that I mentioned that I didn't understand earlier in my career. And now they've got 3 locations, are doing great. And, you know, I went home and, and visited with my younger brother and and he had the night before gone and went to one of these places and he was talking about it that, you know, he was doing the Twin Cities. And I thought to myself, huh, turns out there is a market for this. And then watching, you know, watching that business, you know, thrive in the Fargo area. Like I said, it gave me a moment to reflect and say, You know what? I'm glad I helped. I need to be less, you know, inside my head. I don't want to say critical again, just questioning about what is this and should I be protecting you on the backside in case it doesn't go? Of course, I always do that no matter what.

I—

whenever I meet with a business, I talk about, you know, what are— what's your exit plan or how— what happens? Because we have to have that discussion. But on the flip side, again, I just jump in, you know, both feet and say, well, let's— if you're going to make a run at it, let's make a run hard, you know, don't, don't half-ass it.

And so exactly. Well, Matt, I want to thank you again for your time this morning. Yeah, it's always, it's always so— you're like, you're doing such important work and you have been for your— the entirety of your career. And I— it's fun for me because sometimes people will still randomly say like, Hey, you know, you ever met Matt Marshall? I was like, in fact, I have. And it's just, it's, you're, you're one of those people that I am so thankful to have met. And I tell the story of how I tell the story of our connection, what, you know, how I came to meet you, what you came to do for us, because literally sometimes one key connection can be the linchpin to unlocking all sorts of things for people. And I just I— that's the encouragement. I want people to be good humans aligning with other good humans. It's amazing what we can accomplish when we simply look at life like that. Like, you might be one connection away from a completely different life for yourself. Like, it's actually a true thing. And I think sometimes we just forget, we overcomplicate it. It's really easy to do, right? You overthink it. Um, but thank you for just being one of those key people in my life. I'm Seriously, so thankful for you.

Honored to be. I've got two Rebeccas in my life, my lovely bride and then Rebecca Undum. So, but I'm honored to be a part of the story and just grateful for what you guys have done down there. Like I said, it's an inspiration to a lot of communities.

Thank you, Matt. Hey, Ashley, welcome to the show.

Hello again.

It's been a while.

It has been a while. So good to see you. Fun to catch up on all things Rugby and all things Main Street Boutique, right? Your, your, your store right there in Rugby. So we've known each other for a while now. Like, we've known each other even before Growing Small Towns actually officially kicked off. But you've been on our podcast. I've spoken in Rugby. So you've spent some time hanging with me a bit, right? When you think about like the work that we're doing at Growing Small Towns and how it applies to you either as a Main Street business owner or, you know, to the community of Rugby on the whole, what do you think are the biggest things that have— what has impacted you the most?

So I would just, you know, it's going to sound maybe silly, but at the same time, I'm just going to let you know, maybe it's a little pat on your back, is I think the fun is for all this community things I've done or been doing and stuff, something will come up and they'll be like, have you met Rebecca Undum?

You should meet her. And I'll be like, I do, I know her.

I love her.

So I feel like sometimes that just even helps, you know, like you have grown your name in, in the small town, in your community of the followers. And so it just helps that when someone maybe clicks on it, so, you know, or the old ones, I mean, at that time it was a really a big new thing in general, I felt like for my area. Um, I don't know. I mean, people were listening to podcasts, but maybe not quite as much. And so it just helps. I mean, all of it helps, you know that. I mean, it's word of mouth. It's all the marketing we can possibly do for our small towns, right?

Right. Yeah. So in Rugby, um, just for our listeners' sakes, but how many people? Uh, I think—

I want to say we're like 2,400 now.

Okay. Yeah, you're a little— you're a little bigger. Yeah, a little bit bigger than Oaks. But, um, I— when I visited Rugby, um, it really truly felt kind of like home to me. Like, there was really a lot— there was a lot of similarities. Just size is pretty, pretty comparable. Um, you have a lot of really great little businesses in Rugby. Um, so, and I think— but I think it's fun that even just saying, you know, podcasts are such an important thing for us that, that are like road warriors, because you, you have a Main Street business, but you're involved in a lot of things, and you leave rugby occasionally, right, and kind of travel to other things. You attend events, that kind of thing. It is really great to have a show that feels like it was made for us.

Yes, that's what's exciting. Like, so, you know, if you go to Main Street Summit or you go to different board meetings throughout the state, if they're in Minot, Bismarck, or Fargo, you know, a lot of times too when you're meeting new people, you have to have that icebreaker of, okay, How do— how can we connect? You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's good too, of like, oh, I heard you on the podcast, or, you know.

Oh, that's fantastic, that's fantastic. So what is, um, maybe even think about it— I said you could pick either one, but what about, you know, because you know that one of our big passions, one of my big passions, and then our work here at Growing Small Towns is about supporting people that are running businesses, the people doing the work.

Yes.

From your perspective, you're on the chamber, you're on the CVB, you've been involved in almost like you've probably played a role in lots of things throughout Rugby because that's what people like you do and we love people like you so much. What do you think are the, like the, what's the value of that specific support for small business owners? What do you think that means to a community like Rugby or a similar or a similar sized town, a small community? What do you think is the value of that?

If anything, the value of having people—

well, supporting, supporting those people.

Oh, 100%. I mean, if we didn't have the support, what, you know, you— after a while you wouldn't want to get up and do it, you know, like you would lose that altogether, right? Um, I've always said, especially like, you know, now having been in business over 6 years, you know, it's kind of that first— it's like your 3-year, then it's your 5-year, and then, you know, because then you're kind of that bus time. So now it's starting— people come in and ask different questions, like about either wanting to open a business or things like that. And I always remind them, in a small community, people want to support people. And that's, that's the thing. And so, like, you— I just, I think it's wonderful. It's amazing. Like, if we didn't have the support, I just— you wouldn't make it, right?

You know?

Right.

Well, and I think that again is like why small business owners are so important to the work that we're doing. We want, we want those people to be as supported to, to get better, to learn the skills, to learn all sorts of things, because it is always about people. You know, a business will only grow as far as, or as much as, the person running it will grow themselves. I truly, truly believe that. Um, and so that's why it's just so, it's so fun to know you, right? Because you're, you're not only like all about rugby in a very, in a very clear way, right? Like you, you're, you get involved, you show up, you do all these things, but you also happen to run a business on Main Street. And it's been really fun. Um, if— and we will link back to your episode, by the way, so people, if they haven't heard it, they can go back and listen to it because you're one of those guests that, um— and again, I got to come to Rugby, actually meet you, actually spend time in your space— but you think really smartly, I think strategically, about how you can use your business to, to like— it creates more business for the community because you're very collaborative in the way that you think about your business. And you're very creative in the way that you interact with other business owners. So you really are, uh, I think you're the kind of business owner that every small town should want. Um, you're generous, you're gracious, you're very community-minded. And honestly, it was so fun to coming to Rugby and getting to see your space. And I still have a couple of sweaters that I purchased from you, and I really need to like get my butt back up there and buy some more because it was just such a fun experience. Um, thanks so much, Ashley, seriously, for all you do, not just in small towns but all, all throughout North Dakota, because you are, you are well known for everything you do as well.

That's a little funny.

That's just true. It's true. Like you said, it's one of those fun things when people say, hey, do you know? That's happened to me a number of times too, where people have asked me if I know you, and I'm like, Yeah, we've met.

It's good.

That's exciting. It is.

It's so good. Thank you so much for coming on and just sharing your quick opinion about this. So, so, so happy to have you as part of our network.

We do are going to have to run into each other soon though in person again.

I agree. I agree. Zoom's great, but it's not the same, is it?

No, no, not quite.

Thanks so much, friend.

Yes, we'll see you and talk to you soon.

Okay. Hey Bob, welcome to the show.

Good morning.

So happy to have you here.

Yeah, it's been a while since we chatted and, uh, so it'll be good to catch up and, uh, see what's happening.

For sure.

So, um, you and I, we've, we've collaborated or put our heads together on a few things. Um, but when you think back over, you know, the course of the time that we've been open, so we, um, I think officially launched with the bus trip and you were here for that event. Um, in June of 2021. What are some of the things that you think, um, like, why does it matter, I guess, that Growing Small Towns exists? What do you think we're doing for the benefit of a community like Hankinson? Because you're just down the road from us, right?

Right, just an hour away. And sometimes we think about— I think too often we think about, especially in small towns, we carry those rivalries from the school athletic field or, or basketball court. Um, and we don't see ways to collaborate. We see ways— we, we see everybody as a threat or as competition.

Mm-hmm.

And they're, they're really not. Um, as a small, small community, we, we need to collaborate the strengths of, of each of us. Uh, you know, we don't have a car dealership, so somebody's looking for a car, we refer them to Legerwood because they have a Ford dealership. Or to Oaks or, or whatever it might be.

Yep.

And so I think, um, yeah, the, the opening of that, I think, is, uh, the first time I was really kind of understood about what you were working on as Growing Small Towns. Um, and I think creating the, that collaborative workspace, I'd be interested to hear kind of how that's, that's working in Oaks. Um, that's something that I've pushed here The city owns, well, 4 historic buildings, 3 of which they've converted to a community center. But there's— all of those buildings have a second floor.

Yeah.

Some great space, if not for apartments, but for some workspace to enhance the venue as the community center is being used for weddings, not just for receptions. We have people from Fargo that are actually having the ceremony, the reception, dinner, and dance. And they're kind of looking for an area where the bridal party could hang out, have their own space before the event and some of those things. So I think it's just sharing of ideas and, and if you, if one of those ideas that you've actually been able to put into practice and it works. Is then sharing that with other people and how can they massage that so it works in their community.

Yeah. And I really appreciate that so much. And when I first met you, I remember just thinking like, well, this guy gets it. And by it, I mean you get the value of collaboration. And it really is something that not every person in even the line of work or this kind of scope of work of community development, there are a lot of people that don't get it. And by get it, I also mean they don't— they're not— they wouldn't promote it. And so when I think it's— I think it's dangerous for all of us if we get territorial and tribal about the things that we're doing. I will always advocate for sharing, especially— I think it's— I think there's value in sharing what's working and what didn't work. I mean, all the way around, it's just so we tried this thing, here's what happened. And then it's that question of is there merit? In this for our community, and then what would tweaks need to look like? I just, I've always just appreciated your generous, your generous nature. That, that collaboration is, is super valuable to me. And it's, it's fun talking about those buildings because you, I came over one time and you guys showed me. Yeah, I got to tour them. And I, I think, um, it's cool also, you know, your CDC over in Hankinson, really, you're an innovative group of people. The way that you've approached it, like initially it was private invested, right? Private investment, is that right?

Yes.

That started the CDC originally, and now you get some sales tax revenue, is that also correct?

Correct, yes.

Okay.

Um, yeah, originally the CDC started, I think, in the, um, mid to about mid-'70s or so, early to mid-'70s.

I wouldn't have even guessed it was that old too. So that's That's even more interesting, kind of, right?

We've been around for over 50 years. Contrary to many belief, I was not one of the charter members.

You've maybe been around a while, Bob, but come on.

They purchased a quarter section of farmland just on the east side of town. And interestingly enough, for whatever reason, I don't know know how that decision came about, but they were innovative or forward-thinking enough to immediately annex that into the city. So any potential industry and so forth, there wasn't then this whole discussion or, you know, argument by the industry or whatever— we don't want to be in the city because that means more mills and so forth. So yeah, um, they had the foresight to do that. And yes, those, those original people that started that CDC, when that land payment come due every year, if there was enough money, they each dug in their pockets and bought more stock. So they had enough money to make the land payment. You know, so it's been, we've been fortunate to have that kind of leadership, you know, even to see the need for a separate entity. Yeah. That does more than what the, the chamber, or we call the commercial club, does.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, seek that out. And, you know, small cities, uh, from the mayor, mayor on down to every council member, all have jobs. They, they're, you know, they don't do that full-time or part-time. This is all a side gig for all of us. And, uh, so yeah, you just gotta Of course, if you get— if you have a success story, it's, it's easier to keep the enthusiasm going, right?

Of course.

But I don't— but again, like, success stories don't happen, they're made. And I think that's— it takes, it takes people, um, I just—

that's—

you think about having done that, that decision that was made in the '70s, how truly forward-thinking that is, um, all on a lot of fronts. So can you, can you give an update on what— so that original tract of land what's now on it.

So yeah, the original tract of land on is— so the, the railroad kind of slices through almost the center of it. So everything on the north side of, of the rail is Guardian Energy, Hankinson, the ethanol plant. Yep. And they purchased land, additional land to the east in order for trackage and, and for the plant site needed to be larger than that. But, um, and then on the south side is currently still being farmed, but actually as, as we speak today, there's a manufacturing company that has looked at different sites, um, not only in North Dakota, but in, in other states and have zeroed in on our site and will, are interested in all 60 acres that remain.

Mm-hmm.

Um, that could bring 140 to 160 people to work. Um, you know, that's, it's a long way off. Um, but I mean, they're, we've made the cut. We are the site if, if they're able to secure financing and move forward.

So that's fantastic. Yeah. And I think again, um, what I've, what I've always thought was interesting at, you know, getting to know you and your CDC group, like you are not afraid to own things. You're not afraid to own property. You're not afraid to own buildings. And I just think that's, that's interesting because once you control it, then you have the flexibility on the negotiation side, on, you know, on the attract— like, if you're trying to attract somebody to come in and do something, you have it, you have the asset. And I don't think that's the outlook of a lot of development groups. And so I don't know, like, I would be interested to hear from you. Do you— I mean, do you think that some of it is because you're, you're, you act and think like private sector people because you started that way versus it always was funded with taxpayer dollars. So basically my question is, do you think that as soon as, as it's taxpayer funded, that some sort of like risk mitigation filter just snaps into place and it can maybe inhibit our creativity or innovation or open-mindedness? Do you think that's a thing?

Yeah, yes, I do. I think it's, you know, getting back. So yes, how we're funded now is the city. Hankinson has 3% as a local city sales tax. You know, they didn't all come about at once. The original 1%, and then the second one was added to do the community center project. And then the third 1% was added, was requested by the CDC, the Park District, um, and the Housing Authority that would generate some dollars to enable us to, to do some more things. Um, so originally when we, we got that allocation from the city, it was really, we had, we had purchased land, uh, put in a, uh, 13, uh, residential lot cul-de-sac. And promoted those lots. And so the specials were assessed, of course, to us. So the city allocated some sales tax dollars, came to the CDC, which enabled us to pay the special assessments, which enabled the city to pay the financing. So it was just really kind of a, um, you know, tax dollars just going through entities. But that was the purpose of it. And of course, since we've— since that cul-de-sac has been built out. You know, we continue to receive those sales tax dollars, but it enables us to buy. We've done it with 3, at least 3 different buildings, commercial buildings that have been vacant. We've purchased, renovated it to suit the tenant, leased it to them, and then we've kind of built an incentive or lease-to-buy where part of that rental each month goes to reduce the purchase price down to a certain level. And, you know, then ultimately they buy us out. Or we've bought properties, uh, the dental clinic, it was a vacant building. We didn't have a dentist in town. We purchased it, uh, renovated it, identified a dentist to come here at least a few days a week out of Fargo, uh, ended up had such a demand here, sold his practice in Fargo, and now this is his only clinic. But selling that on a contract for deed, we've done that with another building that we didn't have any purpose for, but it was kind of in the center of the street and the roof was bad and it was going to damage the buildings on either side. So we did the same thing there and we put a new roof on it, sat on it until we identified a business tenant. They moved in, leased for a while, selling on a contract for deed. So it's trying to preserve that business district in those buildings and then creating affordable terms for that business to get in, get on their feet, and then take us out of the deal.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

It's just so smart and I don't think I do think that there's kind of a traditionally funded model where it was always driven by sales tax. I think that sometimes if it was started with that, that risk mitigation— and of course you want to mitigate risk. I mean, I don't think you guys are doing risky, necessarily crazy risky things, but even the idea of really trying to work with prospective either tenants or people that are going to buy a business and working with them and having— knowing that that's really a position that you can take.

I don't think every—

I don't think a lot of EDCs kind of traditionally, I don't think they— I don't think they're as nimble as you guys are. And so it's— I appreciate you sharing some of those things because if nothing else, people listening, everyone's got these problems, Bob. Like these are really common challenges across small communities, right, where you've got vacant buildings and there's nobody that wants to step up and do what your group is just so willing and kind of has always done. And I think it's unique. I think it's unique to you.

So it's, it's interesting. Um, so when the sales tax was first starting to be shared with us, there was a small percentage. And then Lauren Hubble, who, uh, was on the council at the time, so the city retained some of that sales tax dollars to do, to help with economic development, you know, and then it, you, you, we'd approach the council with a project to come out of the dollars they've saved. And, and yeah, government by nature does not move quickly on anything.

Nope.

And, and so that project got funded. It basically used all the dollars the city had, had allocated for that. And Lauren said, when that deal was all done, Lauren said, Why are we retaining this other 30% for the city? Let's just give that to the CDC. Let them do economic development. We got our hands full just doing the other thing.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, so Loren went on to be, to serve as mayor for a couple of terms and, uh, he, he would always, uh, so if we had something brewing as a CDC, you know, I'd say, I'd shoot him a message and say, you got time for coffee? Stop in. And yeah, both forth. And then, yeah, he would always tell me, you know, Bob, you just don't understand, government doesn't move as quickly as you guys do, and we can't keep up, you know. Um, so I think there is a role, you know, clearly a role for the city. And, you know, we, we always— we kind of feel we butt heads with the city fairly regularly. However, um, you know, they recognize we're trying to do is going to benefit the city. We recognize they're trying to, yeah, mitigate some risk or be—

keep costs down. I mean, it's—

but, uh, yeah, yeah. But neither one of us tend to back down.

So I just think it's really— I think it's a unique— it's a unique design. Um, and you've, again, you've really done some things where it's like, if, if that group didn't exist, none of those things would have fallen to— because like I said, success stories don't just happen. Like, you guys aren't successful because of some sort of magic. It actually takes the people with the right mindsets willing to— you do have to be willing to put your neck on the line a little bit, step out of— and the government can't do that. And honestly, if we really want to get real about it, we don't want them to do that. I don't want the government to suddenly be moving quickly. You watch that happen. There's not strategy. I mean, COVID was a great example of that, right? The amount of money that got pumped into our economy fast. Um, and everyone's just like, where is all this cash coming from, right?

It's—

they're not meant to do that. So I just think all small towns can learn from you guys. Um, and I'll just make a plug for you if, um, if we— if this isn't enough of a plug, just having you on talking about the great things you're doing. But, um, people should come and visit Hankinson, North Dakota. It's, uh, and you can really see, you know, because how big is your town population-wise? 900?

Yeah, population-wise it's 900.

Okay.

We always, we've got full-time residents around Lake Elsie, a couple miles out of town that are really part of our community, but not included in the census data.

Yeah. Yep. So for a, for a truly a relatively small town in terms of, you know, people, you're really doing a lot of great and innovative things. And so it's just kind of reminding all of us that innovation is absolutely necessary. Um, and so our initial point, collaboration.

Yeah.

So I seriously, I just wanna thank you for coming on, telling us a bit about what's going on in Hankinson and just to also affirm to everybody that collaboration among small communities not only can exist, but it probably should.

Absolutely. I've, uh, I hope to, uh, before my time on the CDC here is however long I'm gonna stay on. Jim Falk told me I had to be treasurer till I died, but, uh, that's a Lifetime appointments.

Gotta love that, right?

My, uh, my goal is to get, get the Litterwood CDC, the Weinmeyer CDC, and the Aikinson CDC boards to meet together once a year. Um, and I've already picked, picked a neutral site. We're going to meet in Manador. It's equal distance for all of us and nobody's home turf.

So yeah, that's a great, that's a great idea. And I think that's a good takeaway too, is just, you know, if somebody's listening to this and they think, gosh, I really just wish I could learn from X, Call them, like, call them up. What's the worst thing they can say? No. Um, but we can learn from each other.

It's—

none of us should be trying to do this on our own. And so our pride and our egos get in the way. And I've always just appreciated your, your humility and your, your openness. You, you're just a really transparent, open guy, and you're willing to share. And so it's been so fun to get to know you.

Yeah, I have to get over to Oaks and see what's changed.

Yeah, yeah, come on over anytime, Bob. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

You're welcome. Good to chat.

Well, hey, Justin, welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show.

Welcome back. Thank you.

Yeah, so we're talking about growth, growing small towns. A lot of people assume that this is all about, you know, doubling the populations of our respective communities. And we both know, living in the same county, we live here in the great county of Dickey County in North Dakota, that that's not exactly the goal, right? But when we think about growth, we think about it from a people capacity. And you've been a partner and been kind of in and out of a lot of things at Growing Small Towns since we opened. What's gotten better for you? How has it impacted things?

Well, you know, I think personally, the things that we've talked about every time we have a conversation is the the reinforcement of my philosophies and my thoughts. And, you know, just having that soundboard of we're doing the right things. And it may be a thankless job sometimes, but there are some that appreciate that. There are some that are doing it. You know, of course, it's always good to have a what works for you, what doesn't work for you. That's what I personally benefit out of it. And I think just the events that I've been a part of, the things I've attended, I love going over to your building because it's just such a phenomenal space. But I get to be in front of and meet and connect with people that I probably would not even know how to seek them out, you know, from Lieutenant Governors to Chamber of Commerce of North Dakota to Gallery Association people, to nonprofit people, to, you know, uh, all, all of the resources that you've brought to your building that I have access to, and I've not paid one dime for that, you know, which I probably, I probably should.

Nope, that's why we're a nonprofit. I mean, that's, that's exactly why we're a nonprofit. It, it would be impossible to ask you in the positions that you're in, and you do a lot of things in the community of Allendale. You're a very active member, but there's just no way that we could ask you to pay for all of that. And that's, and that's why. And so I appreciate that so much because I do think that that's something that is maybe kind of overlooked, um, not just for me and our work, but just the how amazing it is. Like, we live in this really special time. Like, again, not just saying the internet, but I'm literally talking about how, how much we how much we can expand the expertise, talent pool, skill set, all of the things that we can access. We can expand it so much more if we work together, right? And share, and share those humans, share the people and the resources and all the stuff. So that's awesome.

That's awesome.

What do you think, like, of all the things— because you have— we've worked together a lot, and I appreciate— I always just appreciate you.

I do.

Um, What do you think is one of the things that you feel like maybe propelled Ellendale even forward the most? Like, just, and again, like when we get better, everything gets better. And sometimes these things seem incremental and if we're not really paying attention, we might kind of miss them.

Yeah.

So sometimes we need to slow the heck down and be like, okay, let's just celebrate a little win for a second. Those little victories add up over time, right?

Sure. I, I don't know that they have seen a result or a benefit at this point. Um, I do know by the work that you do in the community that you're in and the things that Oaks has been doing, I mean, you're not just the spotlight of Dickey County, you're a spotlight of North Dakota.

This is—

you're a community of what other communities should strive for. Um, so I look those things and try and bring those to my community. And we're just in the phase of we're selling a philosophy and a mindset of, you know, I, I come from a mindset of we have unlimited resources where Allendale has always been a community of if I take a piece of pie, we have less pie. And I'm trying to sell let's just bake another pie. There's enough, there's enough things that we can gather to bake another pie so everybody gets a piece. And, you know, so I— that result hasn't come to fruition yet, but it's on way, and it's definitely supported by what you guys are doing over there. And my experience with working with you and the people in your building and your community, it We'll get there. We'll get there.

It's gonna come.

I'm gonna say, so there's a couple things, um, you just basically summed up in with this pie analogy, right? The difference between truly a scarcity and fear-based mindset versus an abundant and hope-filled mindset. They— a growth mindset, as like watered down and diluted and maybe kind of like cliché as that's become, in just the vernacular. Like, it's actually one of our school's, um, uh, commitments is growth mindset. It's like, it's baked into one of the 3 commitments that our school has, like, as faculty and as students. Um, and so it's— and I think sometimes people hear it and they just like roll their eyes, but it really should not be minimized in any way because it really is the difference of saying, like, immediately leading with no, right? Like, that's not going to work, we can't do that, we've tried that before. Or why we can't, why we can't, we've always had this fear, right? Versus, wow, okay, like you could even say, wow, okay, I hear that and I immediately get a little bit afraid, but that tells me that maybe we should explore it a bit more, right? Like, what could we do? How could it look? What is, what are ways forward? Like, those are, they really are completely different lenses to look at challenges. And so Um, first of all, just thank you for that because I do, I do think that that's really important. I think it's really important for small communities because if we run around actually believing that we're, we're ill-equipped, don't have enough, there's not enough to go around, we're going to get left behind, all of those things, I literally, I just want to say like good luck to you because you're, you're just assigning yourselves a death. Like the death of your community, right? It might be slow. You might do it with a little bit of dignity because it happens over time, but that isn't a mindset of rejuvenation or renovation or what comes next. And oh, I know, I know how scary it is. Like, I get how scary it is for people, but it really is just a different lens to look at stuff. So, um, so while I'm gonna say this too, Justin, while you feel maybe like you haven't seen the fruits of that labor, it is on its way to you. And there are things that are happening, there are pieces moving into place, there are things happening just because you're standing up and speaking that way. And I can appreciate more than you— well, you probably do know— I can appreciate how it maybe feels like that's not the case, but I promise you that's— well, yeah, it's happening.

And I'm always on the mindset, like, the job's not done. We're not done here. And is it ever gonna be done? I don't know. It's never gonna be done, right?

Yeah. No, this is like a way of being, not just like a project management thing.

And I'm always one that struggles with gratitude or pat on the back or being proud of the work. You know, I more mingle in the work.

Work.

We're not, we're not done. You know, so I appreciate that. I do. Of, you know, we have, we have made some strides. Yes. But the work's not done. It's never going to be done.

So, yeah, no, it's not. And our communities, our growth, our success, our future isn't just a series of completed projects. It's all the learning that happens in between those things.

To two. Yeah.

You know, like we, we as humans, every single time— it's funny, I was just talking to my son, my 12-year-old, about this just this morning because he's going to, he's going to do this thing, not to get in the weeds about it, but he's going to make this specific effort to accomplish this specific thing. And he says to me this morning, well, gosh, like, I hope, I hope that it's worth it. And I looked at him and I said, well, what would make it feel not worth it? Like if you don't win? And he goes, well, yeah. And I said, okay, let's talk about the difference between, you know, chasing something down just for the outcome versus chasing it down because of what you're going to learn along the way. And the fact that the success is a lot of times in the journey, it's in the process, it's in the learning. And so I just said to him, like I said, buddy, if— and here's the thing, this is again, I love it when I get to have these conversations at home and then I sit I come to my office and I'm like, God, that's like how it works everywhere, you know?

Yeah.

I said to him, I said, honey, you know, like if you're taking something on and you're guaranteed a positive result, then that's not taking a risk at all and it's not growth. And so I think that applies to communities, right? Like if the only things we'll say yes to, Justin, are sure bets, then we're not, we're not innovating and we're not being creative and we're not taking risks. And I know that risk mitigation is like a huge deal for small communities and, and for city officials and public officials and people that spend taxpayer dollars, for example. Like, I fully appreciate that. And at the same time, we do have to hold some space for uncertainty and for Taking bets on great ideas, like what does that look like in the context of small towns? It's absolutely important. And you do see that and you do show up that way. And I hope, I hope that what we've done more than anything for you besides like connect you to resources is just continue to affirm that way of thinking so that you don't start to stop. Oh, absolutely. Stop saying it out loud, right? We were talking about that. Like it's hard to hard to find your tribe. It's hard to— sometimes it can feel really lonely being oriented this way, uh, in a community where risk mitigation is kind of priority number one.

Um, but yeah, well, you can listen, you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts and audiobooks and that have this philosophy and that have made this in my life that I've, you know, looked for outside of my community. It's very refreshing that I can find it in person in my community. It means so much more than a YouTube video or an audiobook or, you know, I mean, so that the growth is, you know, it's been huge because of that personal touch, development, soundboard, communicative back and forth. Yeah. So, I mean, that's— it's been huge in that aspect. Like personally and, you know, professionally and community-wise and all those things.

Well, and that's just it. You're, you're also illustrating really beautifully that, um, one of our core beliefs, one of my core beliefs is that, um, in small towns in particular, if we're working with somebody like you, um, that's involved in a ton of stuff, like you're, you actually have your hands in lots and lots of things, then every single skill that you get a little bit better at, Justin, those those places, those organizations, those groups of people or projects or programs, they all get a little bit better because you—

they do—

invested in you. And that's, I think that's the asset of, um, the asset of humans that we sometimes forget as we talk about infrastructure and housing and we talk about all these project-based things. Yeah, the humans doing the work are the reason stuff gets gets done. And so let's, let's continue to focus on lifting up the people that are willing to grow, because that's the future. That's the future of communities. And so again, it's not about— I don't, I don't think we get to determine what success looks like for a community, you know, that's not what I'm talking about. But when people feel like they have a sense of belonging, when people feel like their skills have a place to be used, and they can contribute, and they shape the face of their town. Like, that's a feeling that is certainly not harmful.

No, they're part of something. So they're, they're, they're not outside looking in. They're, they're being part of it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's so important of— you can be in a community your whole life and feel no sense of community.

Absolutely. It happens all the time. It happens all the time. And so, again, I wanna just thank you. I wanna thank you for being an early champion of the idea of the building. Like, you were here when it was in bad shape. Like, you were one of the first handful of people that would have come into this building when it was, you know, right before we bought it or right after we bought it. And it has just been fun. Every time I see you walk through the door, I'm happy to see you. And it's nice to have you as a neighbor, and thank you for taking a few minutes to share like what our work has meant to you. And I hope we just continue to work together.

Oh, I'm sure we will. I appreciate you also.

I really do.

Okay.

I have to stop every time I'm in town. I just, I can't drive by without at least checking in. And if you're not there, I'm like, ah, she's not there today. But anyway, you know, we're all busy. I get it.

Yeah.

Well, we need each other. That's the bottom line. So thanks for being part of our crew.

Absolutely.

Welcome to the show, Dawn. I'm so happy to see you.

I am so happy to see you, Miss Rebecca.

So, um, you do really important work in the state. Um, in fact, when I first started the idea of this thing, Matt Marshall, you were with Matt Marshall. Like, he was obviously one of my first kind of big supporters, you were one of the first people he was like, you need to talk to Don Matt. So I feel like we've been each other in each other's orbit since 2019, when I first started thinking and talking about this idea. So from your perspective, you're in the northeast part of our state. What do you feel has been the biggest impact either on you personally or in your work? You know, like, why does it matter that Growing Small Towns is here in the southeast corner of the state, what do you feel has been the biggest thing?

Um, I'll have to say, Rebecca, when I first was hearing about you, first of all, someone in North Dakota that was focused really on growing small towns, like, I, I was like, piqued my interest right out the gate. And honestly, then when you went and did the project in downtown Oaks, and I've been daydreaming about a similar project for a long, long time. So I really wanted to get to know you, um, as somebody that was brave and a bit fearless and leaped forward. And then the more that we got to know each other, um, I really wanted to be able to complement your— learn from you first also about the private sector kind of, um, lens as it relates to this work and how to leverage and really dig into that a little bit. And then complementing and be able to support you by bringing my expertise on the government side of things, government and nonprofit side of things. And I think that truly rural projects, rural initiatives in North Dakota need both.

Agreed.

Whether it's philanthropy or it's corporate partnerships, or et cetera, to be able to leverage on the public side. We really need all the above.

Right, right.

100%.

So when you think about— because again, we're celebrating our 100th year of the building, right? That's kind of what we're doing. It is. It's so much fun. And granted, we have not been here 100 years, but the building has. And I think Yeah, being able to do something where you breathe life into an old building and it doesn't have to get taken down. I think that's a goal for a lot of us in our, on our main streets, right, in our small communities. But when you think about, and so what I was going to say is that we're just getting started, right? Like we've been testing and we've been iterating. There's kind of 3 big pillars of programming that this organization tries to foster. And I think there's a lot of overlap with the work that you do at your, at the regional council. But maybe just for you personally, because again, like my whole frame with this work is that when, when people get better, everything gets better. And sometimes that better is quite incremental, right? Like it's the adoption of one new reframe on something like you, you know, cuz you, this is how you move through the world too. Mm-hmm. Like you're thoughtful and you're reflective and you think about, you think about the way you, you question everything, which I think is amazing. You're very curious. You're one of those humans that asks yourself constantly, like, is there a different way or another way I should be thinking about this? So I think there's a kindred quality between the two of us anyway, you know.

Um, yeah, Rebecca, that I— early in my career, it was very much about attracting and serving the primary sector industry. How do we build new wealth into our rural communities? And I think been on a windy journey myself, but I really appreciate and value how you brought the human side to this. So even with the realm of workforce, we call it workforce, and what we're really talking about is people and how do we move people to our communities. Would our communities be a community of choice that I want to relocate my entire life to and why, right? And those are very, very personal decisions, right?

Right.

It's not necessarily just, do you have a school, do you have healthcare, do you have a decent job, how can I get ahead? But you've got to appeal really to the very human, basic human personal elements to be able to be successful I believe, right?

I do too.

And I appreciate you calling that out because I think we're just starting to really, to really mess with and toy with how to do that. But I think it starts with just saying— I do think it starts with saying it, reminding the people in community and economic development, whether at the state level, at the local level, or like the total just self identified champion of a small town, like you're not paid to do it, you know what I mean? Though there's an energy there that I think is really important for us to acknowledge matters because without that, it can be really tough to envision a future for some communities if they don't have— it's those humans. Sometimes they're, you know, sometimes they're officially in the work, sometimes they're literally just— they care that much about their town. Um, but we're the ones that make a place what it is to live. We create the culture, right, of the community.

And I don't think we've set forth with a lot of intentionality about that.

I don't either. I don't either, right?

And I, I think, as we were sharing a bit ago before we started, but I think that the, the marketing efforts and the way that we've been kind of forced to be very positive about our home, right? We're very stoic, um, Scandinavian. We don't want to brag, right? But absolutely, we have to learn how to sell. And what's great about here— and the one statistic, if I may just throw one data point out there—

please do it.

We've done, um, plans around many different things, and hundreds and hundreds of people have answered our public surveys. And recently So just within the last couple of months, we've had 500 people weigh in about housing and the need for housing. And this was a brilliant question. What do you have friends or family that would like to move to the area? And it was focused on small towns, um, but can't because of the lack of housing availability. And 500 people, 50% of people said Yes, that's, that's a huge number, 50%. So like this misnomer, and there was a long trend about migration and net population loss, right? People are anxious to, um, take advantage of a small town quality of life. So, and I just love all the work you're doing, Rebecca, and I feel like it's so complementary and just leverages different skills between all of us. And in my mind North Dakota is small and nimble, right?

We should be.

We should be, right?

I do think that small towns can have a leg up on creating that personal feel.

Oh man, agreed. Hard, hard agree on that. And so I, I just want to thank you because your— the history of your work, that definitely differs from the history of my, my lens. And I appreciate so much that you don't just dismiss out of hand like, this is too—

no, I'm just wildly curious.

Yeah, like, this is too fluffy. This doesn't, you know, like, this doesn't actually make an impact. Um, and I'm anxious to continue to work— working— like, to work with you as we, as we look to really help grow all of our small communities.

Absolutely.

Because that's what it's about. So thank you so much for taking the time today. Um, I'm just so thankful for you.

You too, Rebecca. Take care.

Hey, Justin, welcome to the show, friend.

Thanks for having me.

So you and I, we've known each other, I don't know, a handful of years, right? Like we were talking, I don't know when we first actually connected the first time, but I think it was while Growing Small Towns, the idea of it was kind of percolating. You were one of the first people I connected with, I think, kind of in the, in the economic development world.

Yeah, I can't recall when that was, but it's got to be 5+ years, I assume. And it was really fun connecting with you and seeing the bold ideas that you had for your community and the love for your community and how you saw that your community could grow. The path that you took through a downtown piece of real estate, which is just key in economic development, is creating a space where people want to congregate in the living room of your community and activating that. And I think in any community development and economic development, which are very closely tied, you want to be able to have significant projects in your downtown that people can be proud of and change the face and the landscape. Of your community, right?

So, you know, I, I would have always— one of the things I've always appreciated about you is when I talk about putting people first, whether it's, you know, from a programming perspective or just the projects that we're doing, I'm always like, hey, but what about all the— like, how do we bring the people side of this along with it? Like, to me, it always should be parallel.

I've—

every time I've ever said words that even touch on that, you nod along with me instead of like furrowing your brow and looking at me like, Rebecca, like that doesn't— that's— you never dismiss the way I think about these things as like fluff and unimportant. So why are you wired like that? Thank you for being wired like that. But you know, where, where do you think people development fits into this broader scope of, of community and/or economic development? Like, what do you think? What do you see changing? Maybe because you've been in the game for a while.

Yeah, obviously people are everything and I've thought about and I've pondered this question, you know, how does regions like maybe Wahpeton or let's take Oaks or whatever, maybe even be competitive against neighbors just to the east of us. You go 60 miles east and there's so much recreation.

Right, right.

And, you know, from us, definitely.

Right.

Yep. And the reality is, I think, I know, is that it's the people. And I think anybody would be more interested in living next door to their best friend in a community like Wapton or Oaks versus being at a lake and hate their neighbor, right?

Right. Or not know them.

Or not know them or whatever.

Yeah.

So that sense of community that you can create within your own community, it's the people that I think keep people in their community and attract people to their community. And the people matter. And the different people, everybody has a role in the community, but it's the people that build the community. It was Rebecca Undum that went out with Growing Small Towns. Bought a piece of real estate, fit it up, and then started engaging the masses with these bold ideas of how to interact with people within their community. It wasn't the city of Oaks that went and did that, or the building didn't wake up one day and said, hey, I'm going to change myself into this piece of real estate. It took somebody with a vision and a passion and, and engaging a broader group of people. So people are the X factor in everything. And, and I think if you can push them up and hold them up and cheer on their ideas, um, a lot of times we can go a lot further as a group than, you know, alone as individuals, right?

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I— it's, it's interesting, right? Because what you just said, it hits that core of like, don't boast about yourself, like it hits the core of the humility that we've been like told we have to do in North Dakota and kind of the Midwest. And yet it really is central to the work that we're here to do. It's like, it's, and it's, by the way, it's not to make more Rebecca Undums. That's not, that's not it at all. It's to find people, meet them where they're at. And like you said, prop them up, encourage them, equip them, right? Because people, there are people walking around every day having thoughts like, gosh, if that, like, what if that was that instead of what it is? And we just need to be able to say, hey, like, we want to hear those things. And you, you person, ex-citizen or resident in this community, you have just as much of an ability. And if we can support you with the right tools, or again, access to, if it's capital or whatever it is that we need to do, right? There's If they have an idea, I want to hear about it. And that's, that's it.

I don't know.

That's— it's grassroots movements. Like you said, a lot of the biggest, the biggest things don't necessarily get driven from that, from a city perspective, because they have a very different lens that they need to continue to focus on. So it's not to disparage city councils or city government or even economic developers. It's just to recognize that that's not the only way communities grow.

Yeah, no, 100%. Um, the, the, the city councils and economic developers' roles are to support people who are trying to grow their community, um, alleviate barriers, find cash, find other resources, but it's not to do the, the, the, um, project themselves. So when you look at— and I, I don't know what it's like in Oaks, but I'm going to guess it's about the same whether it is in Oaks or in our backyard. But if a business goes out of business downtown, the first comment you'll see on Facebook or something like that will be like, oh, the city should do something about that. Well, what is the city supposed to do, right? They don't start businesses. They really shouldn't be owning real estate unless they— there's a specific project that they need to own the real estate for whatever reason, but it's not the city's responsibility to fill that storefront. It is not. It's, it's individual entrepreneurs and, and we need to be able to help them so they're confident enough to take out or take on the risks, you know, to fill that storefront. Now, is there things the city can do, incentive packages and stuff like that?

Yep.

That's their role. That's their role. But their role is not to go buy a building or start a business or anything like that. That's— the city should offer basic services, you know?

Right.

Safety, you know, make sure the, the water's running, the, the roads are plowed, and those types of things.

And right, right. Yeah, it's, uh, it's been, it's been so— it's been such a journey, you know? I mean, we're doing these little snippets because, uh, we're trying to articulate that individual people people have been impacted by the work that we've, that we've done, right? And just to again remind everybody that one person getting fractionally better at any one thing in a town like mine or a town like yours can really make a huge difference. And I, I, I get that it seems too micro to care about at times. Like, you know, economic developers are like, like the big projects, the big sexy awesome projects that like grow our tax backspace by a ton. Those are the things people get super juiced about, and I totally get that. And in my brain and in my heart, I'm like, please continue. And I am going to look people in the eye and recognize that one by one, if we help people get better at things, anything, Justin, right? Because there's such a range of skills. And I think even the way people talk to themselves like the mental health side and the social emotional well-being side of who we are as humans. If we can be a place where people can get better at practicing those skills, because those are skill sets.

Yeah.

And I think that's the other thing. I think it seems fluffy if you don't look at it as skill development, but it is actually skill development. And you start to think about, well, I think, you know, as we're talking about our communities 5, 10 years down the road, I think a cool question is to say, how do we need to behave? Like, if— like, what— how do we need to think? What kinds of mindsets, what kinds of outlooks are going to propel us so that 5 to 10 years down the road we're better than we are today?

Absolutely. It's building the team, right?

Right.

Totally.

And who, who's, who's going to come on the team? So I, I love the touch on the, the mental health, and I think that's often overlooked in entrepreneurship because entrepreneurship is a very lonely game at times. Sometimes it's— you have a lot of support and a lot of people rallying around you, and then there could be some really tough times and you might be on an island. And I think that's where if you can create facilities like you have or cohorts like the Mastermind where you just can bring these entrepreneurs together on a regular basis and they can share their troubles and feel safe about that.

Right.

It's just, it's, it's so big to be able to have a network that you can talk to and rely on and hold each other up because nobody understands what an entrepreneur goes through or business owner goes through unless you are one.

Right.

And, and they're, they're, they're faced with so many different challenges that are taxing on them.

Mm-hmm.

And, and they have to be some of the most resilient people out there.

Right. But yeah, which by the way, resilience is a skill. Yeah, 100%. You know, like it's, we, we build it by going through really hard stuff and overcoming it. So unfortunately it does, that skill set doesn't come easy.

Yeah.

But that's a huge, huge part of being a main, especially like a Main Street small town business owner.

Yeah. Yeah. But what happens if we, if we were propping these folks up all the time and they were at their best all the time? And we're getting the best output we could get from them as a business owner, right? Our communities would be that much stronger and better, right? And it might be just as simple as somebody who's not even an entrepreneur, but they like their business and they make sure to let that business owner know in face, person to person, and online digitally, whether it's on, you know, Google reviews or their Facebook page or whatever. And just like, hey, I support you, I like what you provide to our community and whatnot. I mean, that's just so refreshing as a business owner to be able to have those types of things come after you because you feel like you're doing the right things and some of that icky stuff you got to deal with gets pushed to the back burner.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, I want to thank you for taking a few minutes out of your day. To tell, you know, to tell me, to tell us why this work matters. Because again, I know that I can't convince anybody of that necessarily, and that's not really the game that we're in. But I think making sure that we're telling the actual stories of impact, like that people are getting better because of this focus on them as an individual. And then again, I will always shout this from the rooftops, but it's cool in a community like mine where you know, or yours, right? Let's take you as an example. You get slightly better at a communication tool, even, Justin, right? Everywhere you go, that tool benefits the groups or the organizations that you're a part of. Like, that ripple just goes deep and wide, and it's so cool. And I get— so I just constantly like, why wouldn't we want more of that, I guess, right?

Like, yep.

Like, what do we lose by investing in humans?

It makes the most sense. The ROI is great.

Yeah.

You know, so what you are doing is 100% great work and it should be, uh, continued and continue to evolve into, um, wherever you see the, the needs be. And we would more than welcome that type of work here in the Wapton-Breckenridge area.

Well, it's as always, it's just It's always great to talk to you. You have been a strong advocate for what I am trying to do. You've been a strong advocate from the beginning. So thank you for that, for one, for being a good friend, for being someone I can always call up and be like, oh my God, like, Justin, this is what I'm thinking. And then just for taking the time to share your perspective on it. I appreciate you very much.

Likewise. Keep on the good work and keep fighting the good battles.

Thanks, Justin.

Thanks, Rebecca.

Hey, Bert, welcome to the Growing Small Towns show.

Glad to be here, Rebecca.

Thank you for joining us, and I'm super excited to just hear your perspective. So again, to give you a frame and our listeners a frame, these little mini-sodes are, will be, you know, they're part of a, of a bigger episode where All the people that have experienced working with Growing Small Towns in this specific way will be sharing their reflections. And so because I genuinely believe that when people get better, everything gets better. That's what Growing Small Towns is all about. From your perspective, and if you want to share it from either you as a person involved with your organization or the organization on the whole, what do you feel like for you has been your experience? And working with us. And you can talk about any of— because you have a few. You've worked with me in a few capacities.

Well, I like what you say about when people get better, things get better. And I think that is such a true thing. And I think that you are modeling and exemplifying and drawing that out in the people that you're working with, whether it's kind of as a community fun event or whether it's something more serious.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, people matter, Bert. You, you know, you and the work that you're doing, you're involved in a lot of things. And so you are also exemplifying, um, the truth of that statement that when— so anything that you get better at, you know, any— even as— even, even a seemingly small thing, if you get better at it, especially interracially, uh, relationally or interpersonally, everywhere you show up at home, at church, in the community, and all the things that you're involved with, all of those people benefit from that skill set development. So that's why I think it matters.

And you're never too old to learn and develop new skills. Yeah, there are challenges all the time and, and fun and growth to happen along with that.

So yeah. So when you think about your engagement with Growing Small Towns, what are, what are some of the things you feel like you've maybe seen or felt or experienced that feel like a shift for you?

Feel like a shift for me?

Or growth?

Um, basically, I think I kind of thought I had to be a go-it-alone sort of person. And your ability to network and, you know, to— as I've gotten older and being more involved in I mean, I always was with Girl Scouts or soccer or whatever the kid things were. But as an older adult, I'm doing things that are more of my personal interests. But it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy to make those things happen. So to learn to network and to know that there's other people who really want to do that. I always felt afraid to ask, I think.

Right.

That's, that's been pretty key. Your generosity and your time and your experience has made a big difference.

I appreciate that. And when I love that, right? Like, I think, I think there is, and I sometimes think it's maybe a bit personality, like some of us just have that personality to like hunker down and do it ourselves. And I think sometimes it's cultural, like really asking for help isn't something that I think culturally is super celebrated. I think that's shifting. I mean, I do. I think that that's, that's an openness that I think I see kind of shifting. But so you're certainly not alone in that, you know, thinking that you just have to like have it all figured out. Yeah. And so how about for, for either of your organizations and you can pick one and name it if you'd like, because what we'll do, by the way, too, is just link to the organization that if you mention one, we'll link to it in the show notes just so people can check it out. So if there's one that you feel compelled to talk about, feel free. And if not, if you want to speak generally, you can certainly do that too. No, no problem.

Well, you know, the thing about growing up, I guess, is that you get to really define what your passions are. And I've got a few. You know, you helped us with a PEO fundraiser. Um, rooms— love PEO, always have, has a special place in my heart. I'm a 30-plus year member and Um, so the PEO Sisterhood is certainly something that people could look up and find out more about. Um, and the Grape Growers of North Dakota have been, again, uh, an inspiring group of people for me and allowed me to have some personal growth and a network of good people.

Yeah, they held a big fun conference here. Yes, that long ago. Yeah, that was so— it was so neat. We were so thankful that they chose us as the It was so well received for that. Yes, that was really, really special.

And a lot of times we're meeting in bigger cities and bigger centers, and boy, you know, there was not enough good that they could say about what happened in Oaks.

Yeah.

And your facility was a large part of that. So that, and then the adaptive riding program at Lisbon, Riding for Dreams, is a more recent passion the last 5 to 10 years, I guess you could say. But more heavily involved in the last 3 to 4 years. Um, so learning to, you know, with— as a career nurse, you know, you have your set schedule and your set parameters and you go do what you do, right? But this is a lot more fluid.

Um, fluid's a great word. Yeah. And just maybe a bit more chaotic, truly. You know, I know your, your group is going going through a lot right now, um, is really fun. Um, you personally weren't there, but two of your board members were part of this nonprofit day of development that we just had last week. Um, and again, like, I, I, and literally, I, I kind of forgot about PEO. Like, I forgot that we had engaged around that. And so I also think it's really special where you're literally naming three very distinctly different organizations. Like, those, there's almost zero overlap in the mission goals or, you know, vision of what those three organizations do. And yet you are connected to all three of them. So it truly is a, a really neat story just to hear that. And again, I appreciate you saying like, I'm an older person. Like, you've been around, you've been around the block, right? Like, you, you've lived your— you, your kids are all out of school and you've got grandkids now. And sometimes I think too, in a community like Oakes, we will really need to turn to people that are in that stage of their lives where arguably— there's air quotes around this— you have more time. Yeah, I'm sure it doesn't always feel that way, but everything that you're doing to continue to put yourself in the way of learning and growing, it's making a massive impact. It just is.

And it's meaningful to me and hopeful Hopefully it's helpful to others.

So, well, I think if nothing else, um, thank you for just seriously articulating the importance of, of putting yourself out there and remembering that all of these things that we're talking about, whether it's just learning how to network with other people, if it's learning how to serve better in a board position, um, or work on some sort of a committee, those things are skills that can be developed. We are not fixed in time and space, right, in any of these things. And that's what we're always going to try to be here to do is to put people, to put more of those opportunities for that kind of learning and growth in the way of everybody in these communities because we need people to continue to get better.

And the patience that sometimes younger people who are able to manage technology far better, the patience that's required to work with us older people, and there's older people that are very adept at a lot of things computer-wise. So I don't— I shouldn't categorize that as an age thing, but for me personally, that's a learning curve. But I slug away at it.

Yeah, well, and you're doing a great job. And so again, just thank you. Thank you for reaching out to me when you had each of these. And again, really 3 different— were totally different organizations and different needs. But you, you were not afraid. And I don't— I should ask you that. What, what made you reach out to me, especially because I think PEO was probably the first one, right?

Maybe it could be, but just that the PEO thing was your champion for the community and we needed community exposure because PEO can be a little bit more obscure. Yes. And we were wanting to make much more awareness in our own little community. I mean, we've been in Oaks for, what, 100 years, right?

You know, right.

And most of the seniors go through the PEO Senior Girls' Tea, but after that, I think it kind of just is so under the radar, right? And, and what we do. So just the fact that you're a cheerleader and our organization was needing a little bit of a boost for our fundraising, that was a good thing. The grape growers, I don't know, that was just an overlapping interest of other people in the community.

For sure.

Yeah.

Connect to the state organization, which got me started growing grapes about 10 years ago.

Yeah.

And then you just— your expertise, I guess, was what inspired me to call you, um, with the other organization where we're having, right, changes, some transition. It's a big deal.

It is a big deal. And so I think the only reason I asked that is because I think it's instructive for everybody. Like, if you find yourself in, you know, just kind of either hitting a wall or you're not sure about something, I just appreciate that you walked through my doors, you know?

Oh, good.

I'm glad you can say that. I can say that it's been really, really fun to work in all three of those arenas with you.

And there's huge growth potential here.

Of course.

Of course there is.

There is with everybody. So again, thank you for all you do for our local community, to support the work of these really important organizations. And as always, thank you for taking time to share your thoughts today. It's always so great to talk to you, Bert.

Thank you.

Well, hey, Jeremy, thanks for joining me this morning.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Yeah. So super excited to talk about— you were one of Arthur, the community of Arthur here in North Dakota was one of the communities one of the first ones that we did this community innovation session where the amazing Cass County Electric chose Arthur for this cool opportunity. So why don't you just talk through a little bit? Because again, like, it's— oh, they identified you, by the way, as the human. They're like, you, you can talk to Jeremy. He's gonna love this. It's gonna be great. So can you talk a little bit about even maybe how you felt when I first reached out to you? Because we didn't know each other then. And just what made you say yes? Obviously it was paid for. I mean, I get that's part of it, but still, what made you say yes to being a part of it?

Um, so I was, and still am, serving as the community coordinator in Arthur, uh, and at that point I think I'd only been in that position maybe a year and a half. I don't think it was quite 2 years. Um, and so still being really new to it and kind of getting my feet underneath me and trying to make it my own, saw it as a really good opportunity to learn as much as I could, to have a framework and a structure to pull community members in to get their feedback as well. And just kind of saw it as a resource, saw it as an extra opportunity to network and to kind of expand, yeah, potential opportunities. And with like full transparency, it's like, As soon as, as soon as I got your name and the Growing Small Towns, like, I just like, I'm a teacher, I love to learn. And so I'm immediately like Googling up like, who is this Rebecca Undum person? What is this Growing Small Towns about? Because like, I want to not just learn as much as I can, but I want to make sure too, like, if I'm going to step into like this network, if I'm going to start connecting, like, I want to make sure that whoever and whatever I'm like hitching my wagon to like it's going to work, that it's going to mesh well.

Totally.

And so as far as what drew me to it, it was kind of a personal need in that position. But then also I think learning about you and what you're doing in OAKS kind of resonated with me as well. And I saw some parallels between OAKS and Arthur and what we were trying to do.

Yeah, that's awesome. So walk the audience a bit through what you experienced because it's crazy. It's such a simple framework. I mean, realistically, it doesn't take an incredible amount of facilitation skills. I don't think that it does anyway. It seems pretty straightforward, but it really is a different way to approach potentially unlocking different solutions or different routes to a challenge that you're having. So can you maybe frame out what the challenge was that we kind of focused on for Arthur for that evening?

So Arthur is about 340 people. We're 35 minutes or so north northwest of Fargo, and it's a mix of different generations. I mean, we've got people who have lived in Arthur all their lives and are retired. We've got people who are getting close to that. But then we also kind of like— excuse me— kind of like my family, we moved up in 2017. And we have 4 kids and kind of run the ages. Currently, they're in grade school, we've got one in high school, one's a freshman in college. And there's a lot of other families with smaller kids. And so what we recognize and what we experienced firsthand, my wife and I and our family, is that, you know, there's a really wonderful city park, and that's great for little kids. And then once older kids are able to drive, you know, for the most part, especially in the summers, they're getting part-time jobs. And so, you know, whether they're traveling to Castleton or Hunter or down into Fargo for that. And so what we recognized was that there's kind of this tween age group, uh, right, starting at about 10, uh, around, around 10, maybe 11, uh, until, you know, maybe 16-ish, something like that window where there really isn't a whole lot to do. Uh, and so, you know, moms and dads are working and those kids can't drive And so they're kind of stuck, you know, going to the park just isn't as fun as it used to be, you know. And so, so what could we do to serve that demographic within our little community? And so when we pitched that to you, I know you had mentioned that, you know, that's kind of a common refrain in a lot of small towns.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so that, that became our focus, that became our challenge for that innovation session. And so, yeah, we opened it up and I'm trying to remember. I think we had a dozen, 15 people, something like that, that were there. And we worked in 2 or 3 different groups and you just kind of helped facilitate and guide us through this brainstorming process is kind of how it worked. And, you know, kind of going through— I remember lots and lots and lots of Post-its, which is a lot of fun.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

It gets people kind of active. They're activating, you know, instead of it just being like stuck in their heads. There's an— it's an active process, which is kind of fun.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, so each group kind of going through a brainstorming process, and then each group kind of shares out to the larger group what they're coming up with. And then from that kind of individual to small group to large group, kind of that scaffolding approach, then you end up with like the whole group coming up with a focus that they've been able to start at the bottom and work their way up.

Right. So from that, what was the idea? Have there been any ideas that have kind of taken hold, at least in a way that they moved forward? Even somewhat, right? Because sometimes that progress can feel really slow. I mean, we all know that, but progress is progress, and we have to celebrate the little wins too, right?

Yeah, absolutely. So the big idea that we kind of hit on and began to focus on is something that is still kind of incubating, for lack of a better word. So my hope with the nonprofit that we've got going now is that we're able to take some of those resources with local small businesses and a partnership that we're beginning to build with the school district that we're in and be able to leverage those resources together here in like the next year, year and a half. But really the big thing that we looked at is providing especially summertime, like community programming and kind of bringing together like the group during the innovation session really wanted it to be multi-generational. And so what can we do? Yeah, I love it. What can we do to bring in older generations and their wealth of experience and their passions and all the things that they're great, great at? But then also, like, you know, to get kids away from screens, to get them outside. And so we just started coming up with a list of, like, possibilities. And so, I mean, it could be woodworking things, you know, hands-on stuff. You know, you got a lot of retirees that do that kind of projects and stuff. And so trying to do an assessment of the resources that we have between the community hall and the school. So we're still kind of in, like, an information gathering phase. And like I mentioned, now with the nonprofit moving away from the city, now we're able to lean into that mission and vision and then like start to kind of expand what we're doing and go beyond just tapping into community members. But now we can start to leverage the assets that businesses and sponsors have and kind of like bring all that together.

Yeah, that's so, that's so awesome. So again, our general premise, the reason that I mean, Growing Small Towns exists is to support people, right? It's about people development. And that sounds so fluffy and it sounds like it— sometimes it can sound that way. But again, I think the goal is to recognize that when people get better, everything gets better, right? So can you identify, Jeremy, like through this experience, like even a tangible way that you feel you personally have gotten better and kind of what got better because of that? Besides everything you've just shared, because that— it was a really cool outcome, the fact that like you said, it's— and I appreciate your framework on it's a scaffold. It's a scaffolded approach. So every single person in the room, they get to bring all of themselves to a session like that. It's not like we're hand-selecting people because of their specific skill set. Because honestly, something that happened to you 10 years ago may have relevance, and you just don't know it until you're offered the opportunity to share. So I love that you guys ended up landing on something that it might be still incubating, but the only reason it even exists at all is because you came together at that time. Yeah. So besides all of that, is there anything else that you can identify, just having been a part of our world, working with us, anything that you feel like you've gained?

I'm a strong believer, and if you've been in some of this stuff for a long time, you kinda recognize that there's a certain amount of what you know that's important, but also it becomes like who you know and those networks and that support. So I know that within the community, through that innovation session, like there's people that were there that I'd never met before. And so that's so cool. Yeah, I mean, so just even that alone, being able to put a name with a face, but then also understanding that like this person showed up. I mean, we provided a meal, so maybe they came because of the free meal, but like this person showed up because they had a passion passion for the community and they wanted to contribute. I know being in that leadership position in the city, like sometimes like finding people to get involved, finding volunteers is tough, but now having names and faces of people that have a passion for it, you know, now I can go to them specifically and say, hey, you know, is this something that you'd want to be a part of? Is this something that you want to help with?

Right.

And then even just the network, like with you and Growing Small Towns, like getting connected kind of indirectly through that with Patrick Kirby and, you know, Do Get Better. And so those kinds of resources that are there impacting like fundraising that I do and that kind of thing. Like, I guess like through you and Patrick, one of the things that I picked up on that I have a tendency not to do is to make sure that I pause and celebrate those little wins. Yeah, which is super important because although I get excited about those victories and those wins, my mind automatically clicks over to what's next, right?

You're wired like that, and that's great. We need people like that. But we also need to make sure for your sanity that you take a beat and go, okay, yeah, you can think about what's next, but we want to make sure that you just take a moment and celebrate. The work you've done.

Yeah. And, and, you know, and if there's people involved, like from a leadership perspective, if there's people involved, there's volunteers that were a part of it too, you know, to— what I recognize is that if you automatically move to, okay, what's next, what do we got to do next, that can sometimes communicate the feeling to other people that were involved is that, okay, so what we just did isn't good enough, what we just did isn't worth celebrating, you know. And so to make sure that whatever it's like the culture you're trying to, you know, to cultivate and stuff like that. So those victories and those networks and like, you know, just connecting more people just in the, in the town as well and learning who has a passion, who wants to get involved, who wants to, you know, to support and be a part of the process is, is like honestly probably the biggest couple of pieces that have come out of that.

Well, it's, it's fantastic and I, it was such a fun session. Um, and it's definitely a different way to engage community. So I really appreciate your willingness to try it. I appreciate your entire lens on getting people involved. And again, it probably is somewhat due to the fact that you're a teacher, that you're so wired for like growth and learning. But you were absolutely meant to be a part of our network, and I'm just so thankful to know you, and I'm so excited to continue to watch all the great work that you're going to do in Arthur. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks so much for telling your story with us today. I know this won't be the last of the Arthur wins that we'll talk about here. Have a good one, Jeremy.

You too.

Well, hey, Melissa, welcome to the show.

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's so good to see you as always. So you, since Growing Small Towns started, had kind of— you've had a big career shift and, you know, you're kind of here to give some perspective on what our organization, what Growing Small Towns can do or what's the purpose of it as it relates to community and economic development. So when I first started and I launched Growing Small Towns, you were a local economic developer for a small town similar to Oaks in a lot of ways, right? But you were Castleton economic developer and now you work for Minn Kota doing this role kind of in a broader, bigger scope for lots of communities, work with a lot of small towns.

Yeah.

So, so you belong here, I guess we'll put— we'll start with that. You absolutely belong here.

You're my people.

I know.

Yeah, same, same. So what do you think, you know, as you've worked and you've seen kind of— and again, I often share like the first handful of years here, it's just been, um, saying yes to a lot of things, trying a lot of different things, and trying to figure out where we actually fit in this whole scope of work. Um, because I never— and I, you know this, I've always been like, I feel like a reluctant economic developer, right? So what's, what's your take? What do you think have been kind of the biggest things that you've seen? And it could be from either role perspective, frankly.

Yeah, I think it's hard, you know, when you look at communities, you find those, um, those gaps and what do you feel in your heart is missing in a community, right? You know, what is, what is your family missing or what is your business missing or what is, what do you think would make the community better? And so I think when you look at any community, that's really what I would take a first look at is so whether we're working on a community in my new role or previously in a, in a city development perspective, just digging in and, and first I think identifying who Who can be those partners and what do I need to learn to fix that problem? I think that's the biggest piece and then kind of start to build from there.

Yeah.

So in, maybe even just start with local, like the perspective of local economic development. What are, what have you seen that has been an impact that we've made? Again, like it doesn't have to be program specific necessarily. Like I think that's I think that's, you know, that's kind of where we're going with this, is to like, not just to validate the fact that we should be here, obviously, but it is, it is hard. There's so many nonprofits, there's so many agencies, there's so many organizations, um, and we just so believe in the development of people.

Yeah, I think that's an interesting question, right? I think that's one of the things that I'm most passionate about, is when you go into a community, and so if we're talking just a very local perspective, identifying, are we all rowing in the same direction, right? Because there's only, only so much time, only so many people, volunteers especially, in small communities. So if we're trying to support the school on this side and support downtown on this side, and we feel like we're working against each other, that's, I think, the, the piece that needs to be kind of brought, brought together immediately, is just how are we going to work together. Um, and I think people genuinely have the community's best interest in mind, right? Top of mind. But it just gets to be so heavily focused on maybe one piece or the other that you feel like you're dividing almost.

Right. And I believe in that too. I believe so strongly in that. In fact, that's just really good collaboration. And it's interesting because, again, I think it's easy to have the misconception that small towns naturally do it better because we're smaller. And I don't think we do. I don't think that's true. I think sometimes it actually gets to be a little bit harder because like a mindset of scarcity comes into play where it feels like we need to protect what we're doing and keep kind of keep our— I don't want to call them blinders, right? But kind of keep our guard up and our walls up, siloed maybe, right? Um, so that if there's only one bucket of funding, like, we make sure we get ours. And I just, I want to help shift that because that's a mindset thing, right? And our mindsets, our attitudes, the way we approach other But people, to me, it matters so much. The strategy, like, the best strategies won't get implemented if the people part of it isn't working, isn't gelling.

Yeah, absolutely. It's incredibly difficult. And I think a really good— it's not even emotional intelligence. It's separating something else. If you're the local hardware store owner and on the other hand, the economic development crew is trying to recruit a new business to go in an empty storefront, right? But they're selling maybe some similar supplies. I understand that that feels very personal. It feels very threatening. But how do we see big picture and how do we each get a piece of the pie, that type of thing, to, to make it, you know, ultimately the community is thriving, right? It's growing. So yeah, it's hard to see past that. But that I think when, when a community begins to do that and the people in the community begin to do that, see big picture very holistically. Yeah, it just makes the progress so much easier.

Totally agree. And it is hard. I mean, that, that's a super clear example of— and that's, and that's honestly, I think a lot of times local people and maybe even local business owners don't really understand the, the role of an economic development person if a community is lucky enough to have one, right? If that position is either funded or paid to do that work. Growth is important. And so it's, it's real. It can be really hard. Again, when you're going, you're, there's some overlap in products or services. And that's when I think again, that scarcity mindset, like there's just not enough to go around. That's when it really, it becomes actually damaging and it inhibits our ability to grow and get better.

Exactly.

So I think that's a, that's an awesome example. What else? How about when you're in your bigger role now? And I said bigger— local economic development is no small thing. Let me just be clear about that. If I'm making it sound like that was small and now you're doing something bigger, but you have a bigger scope geographically.

Yes.

Yeah.

You work with a lot of communities now. So how about what do you— I mean, what do you think are— what are some of the themes maybe additionally outside of just that collaboration being a huge one? Open-mindedness, I guess, kind of big picture thinking. What other things do you feel like you're seeing from the people side of things?

You know, there are some, some communities and some people that are just generally more risk-takers. And, um, I think it's when you're afraid to take any risk, whether that's in community development or business development, or, you know, a new stage downtown, right? Something fun. Um, that's where communities find themselves just kind of— we say it all the time— they stumble over themselves, right? That's— and it's sometimes just the people in, in that element of risk and element of change. That's something that we find is very, very difficult, and that's something difficult for us to, um, to change, right? That, that's, that's an internal, um, mindset that's really challenging. So, you know, you just see people that are maybe more, um, used to having change, and those are typically the communities that are willing to go out, try new things, and from the outside appear, appear much more active, engaged, you know, um, positively moving, right?

And so, like, seriously, from your perspective and all the work that you've done, I mean, is, is status quo actually an option for communities? You know what I mean? Just And by status quo, I mean like we don't have a mindset of oriented towards growth of any kind. Is, is, is that, is that a sustainable way to think about community?

Yeah, not in my opinion. I mean, from what I've seen over the last 15 years, if you have a community that is just trying to maintain, they will slide backwards. That might not be in year 1, but it might be over 3, 5 years, right? Or more. But it can happen so quickly. That's what's so scary in these small communities is that, you know, the closing of one major business and it's all of a sudden you're losing families, housing, your school. Right. So it's really important to continue to grow, continue to diversify, replacing those, you know, unfortunately replacing those deaths with births and, and imports.

Yeah, right. It's so important.

Right.

Well, I just think, um, again, I want to thank you for just being— like, the moment we met, I think we, we clicked, and it's been so fun to have you in our corner in North Dakota. Now you're also— some of your territory's in Minnesota, which they're lucky to have you as well. Um, but I, I love— I, I think what's fun, I love being reminded that, like, the way that I think about this isn't actually all that insane. It's just, it can't You know, I think it's important to acknowledge though, like, economic development, tried and true economic development, is very, very important, right? It's just I don't want to see those things be pursued without this, these other kind of more of the community, either morale, the culture, the people part of it. I just don't want, I don't want that to get lost, right?

The people are the key to it all, so we can't forget the people and the mindset and the values that go along with it. Along there.

Totally. Well, again, thank you so much for taking some time today. Appreciate you so much.

Appreciate you and the work that you're doing and spurring the conversations. I love it. Good job, Rebecca.

Thanks, Melissa. We'll see you soon.

Thanks.