Moments of Growth: Resource + Network Expansion

Hey friends, this episode is another installment in our series, and this compiled or compilation of small conversations is all about featuring the businesses and the people in the businesses and kind of slash organizations that we think are in alignment with our core beliefs and our hopes for small towns. And so we're considering this resource and network expansion. It's kind of people we want you to know. And so as you're sitting there in your own respective small town, we encourage you to do a couple of things with this. Please review the show notes and check out their organizations. And in the show notes will be any previous episodes that we've recorded with either the individuals or a representative of the organization that these individuals are talking about. So It's a really big deal if we want to be doing this work in a way that doesn't make us feel so lonely and isolated. One of the ways we do that is through connections. So enjoy some of our faves that we've gotten to know over the years. Hey, Jordan, welcome to the show, friend.

Hi, how are you?

I'm so good. So good to see you. Thanks.

You too.

Okay, so you've been You've been a really key person, and the Rural Ideas Network has been a key partner to Growing Small Towns since before we had a building, before we had a building to celebrate the anniversary of, right? And I've talked about— you know, you've been on the podcast before. We'll link back to that episode so people can listen to your brilliance before. But as you think about all the people you've seen, all the small towns that you've worked with too, What do you think is kind of the key reason Growing Small Towns, like, needs to exist? You know, what do you think, what do you think we're here to do in terms of impact from your perspective?

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, so the Rural Ideas Network gets the opportunity to work with a lot of different partners in a lot of different capacities in rural America. We work with economic development organizations, we work with nonprofits like Growing Small Towns, we work with individual property owners that just want to make a difference in their community by doing something cool in a building or bringing a cool service to their local business owners to help them grow. And one of the things that I keep thinking about and seeing over and over in towns that have energy building, you know, there's towns that are out there that have energy building, and there's towns that are out there that don't, and they sometimes have the opposite, they have energy leaving. And I think that in rural America, it's really critical for towns that are going to thrive. And notice I said thrive and not grow, because I know that in economic development, growth is the number one goal.

Right.

But I think that what's happening is that as we see population shifts moving from rural to urban, I think that that growth goal continues to probably be valid and relevant in urban. But I think that for rural, there needs to be a shift in thinking from a kind of population growth mindset to a how do we help our community and the residents that live here thrive? How do we create as high a quality of life as possible for the residents that are here? And if that's your goal, then you need energy to accomplish, you know, nobody thrives without energy. And so in the communities that we work with that we see the most positive things happening and the most likelihood that this is gonna either remain a community that thrives or move toward their goal of being a community that, that's thriving, that energy is so important. And, and so getting back to your question, what do I see as the impact of organizations like Growing Small Towns and, and specifically Growing Small Towns? Is that organizations like yours and people like you, and probably the people that are in your space using it to hatch their ideas and using it to pursue their dreams or host a cool event or do something that, that brings energy. It's exactly that, that those organizations, your organization is bringing energy to your community, and that's what's going to help rural communities in Iowa thrive. And without it, your community, that would be one less place that your community was gaining energy and one more step toward the likelihood that when you consider kind of the net balance, your community might be losing energy. And when you have a community that's losing energy, sometimes that can be hard to turn around. Yeah, but the, you know, the thing that amazes me about small towns, and I remember when I moved back to the town where I live and was born and raised from Chicago, one of the reasons that I chose to move back and one of the things that became— actually, I don't know if I chose to move back because of this or if I realized it after I moved back, and I think I realized it after I moved back, was that the opportunity to make a difference and the kind of like the hierarchy of the community and how many layers you had to go through in order to like do something meaningful. You know, in Chicago, you were a drop in a giant bucket, right? And how much you could do and how much of an impact you could make was pretty limited in a lot of ways. But I think when, you know, I think it really hit me when I moved back to my hometown and I was at an event And the mayor came up to me and said, hey, you know, I'm the mayor and I hear what you're doing and I'm really excited about it. Let us know if we can help in any way. And I just thought to myself, holy cow.

Yeah, my—

I have access to the mayor. I, you know, like that would have never happened in Chicago. And so the cool thing about rural communities, and I think this is one of the things that keeps me the most excited about them, and their potential to be happy, successful, thriving places that people like to be and they enjoy their life there is that it doesn't take a whole lot of new energy to turn the tide and to help those communities move to where they need to be. You know, an organization like yours and Oakes might be the thing that changes the trajectory of that, of a community from kind of chugging along, doing okay, to becoming this really vibrant place. And so that's what I'm excited about. And that's what I'm excited about with the work that you're doing and the energy that you're bringing to your community and the, the, the fact that you have a physical space for people who also want to bring energy and do interesting things and have goals and dreams that are maybe a little outside of the box, can meet and gather and share And you can start to amplify the energy of each individual and turn it into something really amazing and beautiful for your community and most likely for your entire region and beyond. Because the more little pockets of cool things that we see happening around the country, and that's why our network exists, is to help share those stories and to help amplify best practices and kind of hold them up and say, look, there wasn't anything magical about this thing happening except a few people that wanted to see it happen. And you can do it in your community too, or you can do some version of it in your community that makes sense for where you are and what your skill set is. And that's, for me, that's the fun of the work that we're doing, is just, you know, creating these, these inspirational stories and providing some basic tools and services that help people who have these dreams and these visions for, you know, helping their community thrive to actually be able to go out and do it.

Yeah. Oh my goodness, Jordan. So I'm sitting here listening to you, um, and I always feel this way when I talk to you, so we should like really make Friday catch-ups like a thing or something because it's Friday and we're talking.

I'm in.

Um, but you, you really have just— you truly have just summarized quite succinctly like what I actually hope our impact is. And so I love that, that's, that, that's what you see as a reflection of what we're trying to do. Because it's funny, you're talking about thriving versus growing, right? Growing Small Towns is the name of my organization. But you have actually articulated the kind of growth I'm, I'm interested in us helping to push along. It isn't necessarily getting more people, always going to be a conversation, right? We, We can't actually— it would be really great if newcomers outpaced our death rate. I mean, that's— every small town needs to think about that. But I'm literally talking about the expansion of our mindsets, our way of thinking, you know, pushing our own internal boundaries, limits, right? Cracking open minds and hearts. Like, that's the growth that I'm interested in spearheading, being a part of. Because it is, it's a spark, right? And it is, it's about energy. And I think you're right. It's always so hopeful to me too, because you don't, and I didn't do this thing with this big intention to be like the thing that changes the trajectory of my town. I also don't want anybody to discount the impact that their big idea might actually make. You know, and so to be a place where people that have, like you said, hopes and dreams— everybody does. Every single person on the planet actually has a hope or a dream. And I just think the idea that that can't happen in a small town just because you're in a small town is a very outdated and false narrative. I really do. We're in such a— I mean, we're in such a connected world. Like, it's so possible to do super amazing things from your small place. Um, and so I, I love, I've loved working with you guys. Um, I have loved the energy, like again, that energy for me, you have sustained it for me when I've felt it dip because it has been very lonely at times, right? This journey has been really, really hard. Um, and I can't thank you enough for just always being there, helping me, um, fill our space with core services and humans. That are doing really good work, especially to push along entrepreneurs, you know, getting those, getting those people fired up to take their idea to market. Like, you guys have been super instrumental in all of that. Um, so yeah, I— thanks, man. Thanks for that beautiful explanation, because that, that's the world that I want to help create. Um, and you guys are a key part of that, all the work that you do. Um, and I am going to make it to Dubuque, Iowa. Like, I promise it's got to happen. We've been friends now for 5 years. We've known each other. We first started talking in 2019. So it's time.

It's amazing to think about, isn't it?

It is. Yeah, it's wild.

A lot's changed since then.

Yes, it has.

But not that much has changed at the same time too, right? And I just think, you know, we had a conversation previous about capacity and, you know, focusing on the things that are the most meaningful, uh, in, you know, personally in our individual lives and, and making room, you know, kind of clearing some stuff away to make room for the things that are the most impactful. And, you know, I think that we're probably, you know, as, as conversations about things like global impact and you know, climate change, and people are starting to realize that nobody exists in isolation and that everything is fairly interconnected and that, you know, what happens over here impacts what happens over there. And I think that part of the conversation and specifically economic development conversations around growth versus thriving, you know, just like individually, we only have so much capacity in our lives, you know, there's only so many hours in the day, there's only so many minutes in an an hour. We only get so much time, you know, in our life before we move on. The same is true for the whole world, right? There's only so many resources. There's only so much capacity. And if we just continue to focus on growth, population growth, population growth, population growth, we're gonna— it just, it's not sustainable. Long term. And, you know, I don't mean to come off like a big environmental freak because I do plenty of things in my life that aren't good for the planet, unfortunately.

Right.

But just, you know, as a species, we need to start taking a longer view than I think we have been. And that long view is that we need to find ways to thrive with what we have and not base our success our happiness, our future on what more we can get, what more we can make, or how many more people we can attract, because that is completely unsustainable thinking. And there's no better place to start thinking more sustainably about what does a thriving, vibrant future look like than in our small communities, because they already have the challenge of A, we might not be able to base future metrics of success around population growth.

Right. The best investment are the people that are already here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Stewarding, stewarding what we already have better. That's, that's the answer. And that's capacity building, right? In each individual person. Each individual person can build, can build their own capacity. And that's even, even just asking ourselves that question. Of, you know, where do I— where, where can I best contribute? And am I aligning myself with the opportunities to give that? You know, that's— I think that's a key part of feeling all the things that we're talking about. So thank you, Jordan, for coming on today. I— it's always so good to see you, and I always feel energized after we talk. So I appreciate you.

Well, thanks, Rebecca, and I appreciate the opportunity to work with you as well. And thank you for continuing to engage with the Rural Ideas Network and I'll just send you a recurring calendar invite for Fridays and we'll chat and continue to move the world along in a positive direction.

Sounds like a plan. Hey, Mike, welcome to the show.

Hey, Rebecca, great to be here.

Good to see you.

Yeah.

So you're, you're my third, my third person from Dakota Resources. And again, I will reiterate, I love Dakota Resources because I love that you prioritize the people, your approach to the work. Working primarily within economic development, right? That's largely where you fit when it comes to actually engaging in the community. But I love your style. I love your openness. I love everything about you guys. So you and I have known each other for, I don't know, a handful of years. Yeah. When you think about growing small towns, you think about how it overlaps or complements the work at Dakota Resources. What, what has for you either personally or for the organization, what do you feel like the value has been?

Yeah, well, I think one of the things that I appreciate most is just the narrative that you help to share. You know, it's so, it's a positive. It's, it's this narrative that rural has potential, that we have possibilities, that, that the future is in our own hands. You know, I, back in 2008, I started a blog called Reimagine Rural, and we blogged for about 5 years about this topic that we need to reimagine the future of our rural communities. And I used, I came out of the world of economic development at the time, where I was a local director, and everything was about job creation.

That's it.

It's still— in a lot of pockets, is still the story. Yeah, it is, unfortunately, like the main target.

Yeah. And so how do we help shift that narrative? Because jobs are important. We don't want to say that they're not important, right?

Right.

But it's not the only thing. And back in 2008, I read a thing saying the Gen X There's research showing Gen X was choosing the community where they wanted to live first before they found a job. And I shared that with people. I just got beat up with those comments.

I bet.

But it's true.

Did you know, until, until just now, I didn't know that you had an active blog for 5 years?

Yeah. Yeah.

We did it through an organization.

I don't think you've ever told me that before. That's really cool. Yeah. That's really cool.

It's how I met Ben Winchester. It's how I connected with people. We were early adapters into that social world, and it's how I was able to go out and find that there's a lot of cool things happening out there. We just have to tell the story and shift this narrative that was so doom and gloom. And today, I think one of the things we notice in South Dakota, in the work that we do in South Dakota, younger people think positively, more positively today about their communities than they did 10, 15 years ago. And young and older adults are realizing they've got to continue to keep working with younger people to help them see the possibilities for the future.

What if— what do you think, Mike, we can attribute that to, if anything? I mean, there's probably a multitude of factors, I'm sure, like with most things, but that's a significant shift.

Yeah.

You know, that young people feel more favorably about their communities.

I think it is a shift.

And it's—

I'd like to think that Dakota Resources, other organizations in South Dakota, have helped shift that message. You know, our approach when we go into communities is, is to start having these conversations and to ask things. You could always find people who will say, our young people are our greatest asset and we're losing them, right? But they weren't thinking about what they needed to shift. And we started talking about mindsets being the, the bottom of the iceberg. If you want to solve problems, you have to shift mindsets. And that's one of those mindsets that had to shift. And it has, right? I mean, it's— but it starts by conversations. It starts by sharing stories. You have to be able to see yourself in those stories, right? It makes sense to you and your community. And so telling a story about Sioux Falls or Minneapolis doesn't always resonate, but there's lots of other ones that do. So how do we help them see all those positive things happening in places like Nome, Schoolhouse in Nome, North Dakota, right? That was one of your podcasts, right?

What's, what struck you about that one? I mean, that struck a lot of people because it's a hell of a story. Let's be real.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I think that it struck me because we have a lot of buildings, um, in South Dakota that are big vacant buildings and we're not doing anything with them. They're an asset.

They're old.

We always want to approach What's, what's the way that we can use our assets? So there's an, you know, that really caught my attention. And, and I don't know all of the details of the situation, but the way one phrase that stood out that I remember is the lady said that we went to somebody looking for them to be an investor, but rather than asking for money to invest, we asked for advice. And that's just, I think, a powerful reminder to us in our community work. We want to engage and build our network of alumni. We want to engage with them. But let's ask them for some advice. Let's help them be a part of creating the future. And they're much more likely to give their time, energy, money, whatever it is, when we start by asking them, you know, what, what, what do they think?

Right. Well, it really is that kind of— to me, that kind of anchors into the science of mattering, right? That like people, people want to be heard. People want to be seen. People want to contribute, actually. So that's also, I think, what comes along with this, which I know I'm sure you hear a lot in your work, is this feeling that nobody wants to civically engage anymore. Like everyone's trying to get volunteers and it seems like volunteerism is dead. I don't necessarily think that's the whole answer. I think a little bit of it is shifting mindsets on the part of those of us that are running the organizations or running the committees or the projects or the events and thinking differently about how, how we might approach people to get their buy-in and to get their commitment. Because I think that co-creation that you just referred to is a huge part of people wanting to be a part of something.

Yeah, well, I came into this work from being a high school teacher, right? I became in economic development after being there working with kids, and the thing I did most was teach them how to be successful somewhere else, as opposed to asking them how can they be successful in their own community and helping them achieve that. But youth engagement, different activities where you actually go invite them to be a part of the solution, that's, that's the starting point for engaging young people. This another way to help shift their mindset about about the future. And you might find this interesting. I taught high school, small town, so I had junior high students and I'd have junior students. But by the time young people hit their sophomore age, I just noticed that when they're in the 7th, 8th grade, they love their small town, great community pride. Something happened by the time they were sophomore and junior that was starting to say, oh, I gotta leave.

Yeah.

So how do we shift? That seemed to be a critical time period.

That's really interesting. Well, and I think along with all of this, um, is just the, the opportunity that, that now, that now exists, maybe that didn't exist as clearly when, when, when you might have been a teacher, right? If it was kind of late, was it late '90s, early 2000s? How long were you a— okay, yeah, I mean, that's when I graduated from high school, was 1999. And, you know, again, I, I tell people this because we really have to, we really have to embrace the rapid pace of technology over the past 25 years. I didn't have a cell phone in my hand when I graduated from high school. So the, so the fact that you and I right now are many miles apart and we're having this beautiful conversation, the way the people listening to this right now, how it's hitting their ears, like, there is just so much to embrace. Um, and so there's a lot of mindsets that have to be shifted, and I love that that's kind of your big takeaway because truthfully, that's It's core. It's a core part of the work that we want to do through Growing Small Towns is reminding everybody that you as a person, the way that you think, the way that you feel, the way that you move through the world, um, you matter. And investing in yourself to get better at any one thing, even if it's marginal improvement, it matters. And that's how we all collectively get better over time.

Yeah. And I think that we collectively get better when we connect. And so having Zoom as a technology where we can have calls and just talk and learn from each other. That's the foundation of our, our network and the way we try. We try not to be the people and organization with the answers, right? We try to help people learn from each other. And, you know, an economist back in 2004 wrote— he's with the Kansas City Federal Reserve— rural places' biggest challenge is the remoteness. Remoteness to markets and remoteness to each other so that ideas that people have don't bounce off, click, and generate innovation. It's— that's part of the reason we've struggled. We're overcoming that and we can do more with technology today.

Absolutely agree. And you and your cohorts, your colleagues at Dakota Resources continue to be such an invaluable partner to me, truly. I love knowing you guys. I love supporting your work. I love being a part of your work when and where it makes sense. So thank you, Mike. Thanks for everything that you do for rural communities. And thanks for taking time to share your thoughts with me today.

Yeah. And thanks for that work that you're doing. Again, continuing to spread this message. The future of rural is here. It's with each of us. And here in— it's the time, right? It's here. The future is here. So thank you.

Well said, my friend. Hey, Paula Jensen.

Hey, Rebecca Jensen. How are you today?

I'm, I'm doing great. So good to see you. Thank you so much for taking time to join us on these little snippets. So tell us, tell our listeners, what, what has, um, knowing us, knowing Growing Small Towns, what, how has that impacted you? What, how have you grown from the experience?

Yeah, so it excites me in a big way because just being neighboring counties to Oakes, and I live in Marshall County in South Dakota, so Britton, Langford, where I live, we've had partnerships and connections with, with Oakes and of course other North Dakota bordering communities my whole life.

Right.

So I get really excited when any community near me or any community in South Dakota can start to focus on what it means to be a thriving community, right? To kind of embrace that and to see what you're building in OAKS around growing small towns, I know is already having a huge impact on your region and not just your region, but the larger region, right? So the folks I work with in South Dakota, they all love Growing Small Towns podcast, right?

Yeah, they're all big fans. Yeah, well, I love that and thank you for that. I think it's— so what's funny about this, as I was telling you, um, it was— this is a really fun way for us to share impact. It also— it also— I don't want it to be like, tell us how great we are, right? And it's a challenging thing. And I think it actually speaks to the challenge for a lot of rural communities because we have this thing where we don't want to like toot our own horn, right? Right. But the point is, is I think overall is to recognize that, and again, like the whole premise is that individual people in our respective communities, they hold the keys. They hold the keys to the future. They hold the keys to what the future looks like. And I just believe so. And that's partly why I'm so excited to have you on because Dakota Resources as an organization. I do, again, full disclosure, full transparency, I serve on the advisory council for Dakota Resources. That is a choice that I continue to make because of the clear alignment that I see, the overlap and the shared— it's not just an overlap of— it's not the doing, it's the being for me. You guys embody a lot of the things that I embody for our organization, and that's been— it's been so fun. To have partners because I don't see you as a threat or as competition. I see you as complementary, and I see you as network expansion for the people that listen to our show. So do you want to share a bit about where, if you see that same thing and what, where you feel like those synergies might exist between our organizations?

Oh, totally. So my role as a community coach, so you mentioned it's about the individual leaders, right? That's, that's a lot of my work as a community coach is going out there into communities and empowering those, uh, local residents who are more than likely volunteers. In some cases, they are paid staff of an economic development organization, but to help them see, uh, a vision for their, uh, community, um, and to give them the confidence and the skills to do that. And I see that's what you're doing with Growing Small Towns as well, is giving them confidence and ideas and, um, just promote— promoting the general, uh, health of rural places, uh, that sometimes we just take for granted, right? Like, we just live here, uh, I just came home to where I grew up, right? I love it here because I'm close to my family, but instead of thinking, oh, what, what does a thrive, my, my thriving community look like? Um, so it, my passion fell into this right when I was, uh, when I had come back home to my community of Langford and, and to see what I wanted for my community and what I wanted my kids to have as they were growing up here. And that's kind of where my passion stemmed. And I have been a super volunteer in my community for a few decades, right? And to have the opportunity through Dakota Resources to do that in other communities, I'm just as passionate about some other community as I am my own, and being able to, to connect those communities to other communities to say, hey, did you know what's happening in Oaks? You need to connect with this person or this idea. Or, hey, do you know what's happening in Centerville? Right. You're both tornado communities and there's a lot of stuff going on. Right.

Right. Well, what I love so much is you're touching on something too that I think is still gaining traction maybe in rural places is this idea of of collaboration, like actually working together, even if you're right next door to each other. And you also— the first place I ever heard this was through Dakota Resources, and this was before I even started Growing Small Towns, because I'd been interacting with Dakota Resources before this. And so it's the idea of practicing locally and sharing globally. I love— I just— I think that's so— it speaks so much to what I believe we all need to do. I don't think we win by holding tight our best-kept secrets. I think we win when we generously give and we generously share. And so it's been so fun to have you guys as partners in this and to connect our audiences just to make sure that people know that there's a lot of support out there for rural places. It's easy to focus on what we don't have, and what I want to continue to do is remind people what they do have. And you guys are a huge part of that.

Exactly. And we don't have to be alone in this. And that's the whole thing. And we still hear it out there. We hear it less than we used to. Uh, but a first timer coming to one of our in-person gatherings, um, at the end will often say, you know, when we ask the question, how was this useful? And they'll be like, oh, I just don't feel like I'm alone in this anymore. And you're like, yes, right? Rural changemakers exist in all of our communities. And they may feel really alone because they're the only one out there like, oh, I have this great idea. And everybody else is like, oh, no, I don't think we should do that. Right. We tried that 15 years ago and it didn't work. But what did we learn from it? And how could it be different now? Right.

Yeah.

Those people need energy.

Those people need support. I feel so strongly about that, too. And it's so fascinating, right? Because I think there's a shift happening a bit. And I mean, again, I think the field of economic development is going to be— it's going to elevate, it's going to shift. I should— I shouldn't say elevate. For me, it feels like elevation because we're— I think we're going to naturally have to incorporate some of these things that you and I are talking about. And that means the work will change. That means the people that are attracted to the field will change. But right now, I think there's this really amazing opportunity where that, that person that you're talking about, they could be any citizen in your community and they really are the people that they need nurturing and they need support. And again, like I do, I catch a lot of heat sometimes, right? Because I have such strong opinions about some of these things, like such strong beliefs. This doesn't mean that everybody else doesn't matter. Like for my organization, right? Like when you have to think about who are we serving, it's the people trying to make cool stuff happen in their towns. Kind of period. So I don't care, I like, I don't care what your title is and I don't care what your role is. I care about your heart and I care about your motivation. Um, and that's, I feel such an alignment with so much of what you just said. And it's, it's just so fun. And I also, just for our audience, um, there's going to be several of you from Dakota Resources that I invited to kind of share because you have, you each have a different lens. Um, but I personally, um, publicly want to thank you specifically because you're you know, you're not far from, from me physically, geographically. And you came to our— you came to our open house and you sat right in the front. And I just think it was so special to me. And if I haven't articulated that to you, then let me do so publicly. It was very special to me to have you right in the audience. And I think too, like, that's something we can show up for each other that way.

Yes.

You know, I realize it sometimes takes a little time and maybe a little gas money Um, but like, when was the last time you visited a neighboring town? Or if there is somebody that you really love that does great work in a community, maybe like schedule the time to go see them because it's, it's so meaningful. I, it meant so much to me.

Well, I, I appreciate that. And it, it to me is so exciting. Um, it, it really is. It's breakthrough for me. And that's, I love being a cheerleader of other people's success. Um, and I encourage people all the time to, instead of taking your day to go to a bigger community, right? Take an afternoon, a Saturday afternoon or a Friday afternoon or whatever during the week and go explore some other small town. Right? Explore what's on their main street. Um, knock on the door, have coffee with the people in another town and explore what's there. It is, uh, the most amazing thing to me, um, to be able to visit other communities and see what they have. And I, I get excited about that.

I think that's such a great, it's a great takeaway for this, this section of this, this episode is just to to explore your own, your own backyard, you know, like when was the last time you went a community, one town over? And I think if we all can just remember that there's literally something we can learn from every person, right? Every person has the ability to teach something that we do not know. And that's it. There's— that's a baked-in curiosity that I think we need to continue to remind ourselves to tap into. Because if we get too laser-focused on what we have to do, we end up with pretty good tunnel vision and we get really insular. And we forget then that we're connected, you know, we're connected to other people in the community, we're connected to other people in our region and our state and in the Midwest in our case, right? And that's such a great, a great call to action for all of them. Thank you so much again, Paula, for taking a few minutes out of your busy Friday to share your reflections with us. We're so happy to have you in our network.

Oh, I'm just grateful for growing small towns. So thanks for having me.

Well, hey, Nick, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Rebecca. Glad to be here.

So excited to have you be a part of this episode that's all about kind of network expansion and cool collaborations. You're not the only one from Dakota Resources that will be featured in this episode, but every single one of you kind of has a different, I think, a different lens. First of all, that's part of what makes your group so compelling to work with anyway. So for you personally, like, you know, you can speak about this from whichever perspective feels like it makes sense. You know, you've worked with me now for, I don't know, probably a couple of years. I, of course, get to sit on the advisory council, which is amazing. So what do you think is the benefit of collaboration between our two organizations?

Yeah, I think so. What I see, Rebecca, is, you know, a lot of alignment with, with my career in that two things, you know, we've both lived other places and we made that choice to come back to a small community, to our, to our roots, um, in a way. And, and I think there's something really powerful in that choice and being able to have, you know, that connection to, to place. But I think also I, I've spent the bulk of my career in regional economic development work. And so I think there's a lot of correlation in what you're doing. There's— you're weaving communities, and, and, and more granular than that, you're weaving people together. And I think that kind of builds this fabric of how we can support and maybe think differently about being rural. And I think that is— that, that's pretty cool. And, and something— when we can change mindsets, just imagine what's possible, right?

Right, right. Well, and that's why I just, you know, and I said this so many times, anytime anybody asks me about Dakota Resources, like, one of my personal goals is to get you better known into the state of North Dakota, right? Because you're just right there, like, and you guys are doing, you're approaching the work in a way that always felt very, very aligned for me. And as a really busy person, you know, when my, my term on the advisory council came up, I really, I did have to really spend some time thinking about like, can I continue to, to give, to give my time to this? And I, it was, it really wasn't, I mean, I spend time because I want to be sure that it's the best yes, and I'm not just saying yes for the sake of saying yes, but it really didn't take that much work or thought or effort because I just genuinely love the way that you guys approach the work very much from the perspective of let's share what's working, share the, you know, the things that we've tried that haven't worked, And just that openness and collaborative nature, I think, is so valuable because there's not one right answer for almost anything, but especially for communities like, yeah, small towns, like they may have similar challenges, but one variable can be different enough from one town to the next that it changes everything about what's going to work for them.

Yeah. And I mean, And the other thing is we don't have the answers. Uh, we're not coming in and telling people, here's the checklist, here's the steps, right? I think you know your community, and if we can help have a discussion and uncover the things you know you need to do, I think there's something empowering about that. I think that's really where we— that's the space that we live.

You know, right? Well, and I think too, it's, it's recognizing like it, that if there was a one-size-fits-all approach for any of this work, personally for me, I just feel like we're gutting out the humanity in it because, oh my goodness, like you can, you like, you're a person that I think we share. There's a lot of things we share, right? In terms of how we think about things, right? There's mentality and attitude and values and some of those things like you and I, there's a lot of things. We're still fundamentally very different humans because we just have to be, right? So you could give me the exact same plan as we give you, and all other things could hold the same, and we would get slightly different results because we're not the same. And so it's— I love that you guys approach it in this kind of— there's always room for nuance, there's always room for another perspective. And, and that's, and that's really to me the nature of the messy, chaotic nature of true community work.

Yeah.

And I love that you guys see it that way and embrace it, right? And never shy away from that either.

Rebecca, I often— I think I've joked with you many times that like, I've made the pilgrimage to Oaks to see your space. And I, I hope you know that I'm a little bit serious in that too, because you have created a space in a rural place that is a model. And I think it's, it's inspiring. It's something you've kind of created a place where you're showing people what's possible and that rural places need spaces to connect and collaborate and host things, right? And be able to bring people from all over into one place. That's unique. And I love that. And I think I remember, yeah, I remember hearing somebody else, um, from another small community saying one time, I think we, we can have nice things in rural places. And I think sometimes we tell ourselves we don't deserve that or that won't work here. And so, um, thanks for, for creating that model that inspires so many people.

Well, thank you for, thank you for seeing it that way. I think, um, I didn't— what's crazy about that, I think, is that I didn't— that wasn't the intention necessarily, was, was to have that be an outcome. I knew what I wanted to make me feel the most me. Like, I created the space I needed. And I sometimes think too, like, that, that mindset gets overlooked or, or maybe kind of, um, diminished as not smart enough or not practical enough or not small town enough somehow, right? Like, it's just too— we, we, we always like say it's got to be pragmatic, but the most audacious things don't tend to be completely pragmatic, and there's got to be a balance of those things, right? So, um, I do, I do think that there's value in that, and I, I love reminding small communities that you can have nice things. It's one of my favorite things to remind people. So I love that that's one of your takeaways. I'm truly so grateful to you. It has been so fun to get to know you.. And I'm grateful for the partnership of all of you, the good people at Dakota Resources, doing— just showing up for people. It's been really, really special. And as long as I'm in this work, I imagine that our partnership will continue. So thank you seriously so much for all the good work that you guys do. And thank you for coming on today and sharing your reflections on the past couple of years with us. It's been a— it's been a fun ride so far.

Well, let's do some more work together.

All right.

Let's do that, Nick. Thank you so much.

You bet.

Hey guys, thanks for coming on the show.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Uh, yeah, it's good to see you guys too. So let's talk about Hometown Housing, um, how you came to work with us, kind of maybe what that whole experience looked like. But I think first an overview of your work, and, um, you know I'm a fan, so if you want to share a bit about how your group came together, kind of the origin story for you guys, that might be a place to start.

Well, Shane was here from the beginning, so we'll let him get started on that.

Yeah, kind of a long journey of, of several people that were in the, the housing sector working in silos and running across similar issues. And so we all had crossed paths many times and decided to basically combine our efforts and look at what issues were in the housing industry and how could we work together to basically mitigate those gaps. And so that was the formation of Hometown Housing. We started some projects of our own and then started to get into consulting work with communities because we're seeing the same things everywhere we go to build houses, helping people on the finance side. And, and there's a need there to be able to help people kind of skip over the, the obstacles that are a challenge for everyone.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, John, please.

Sorry, I think one of the biggest things of that is communication. And one of the things that We try to do and we're working on to get better about it is make that communication between people in their own community better so that everybody is on the same page so that they can move forward with projects.

Yeah, for sure. So, so housing is and probably will continue to be one of the primary challenges for rural communities because it's all— it's what's holding us back from workforce recruitment, right? Like we can't. It's pretty hard to recruit somebody to work in your place of business if there's literally not anywhere for them to live in your community, right? So Shane, let's go back though. And what were, what were the disciplines that originally came together? Because I'm gonna tell you again, I once was a banker in a former life. Now I do this kind of community and economic development work. And silos, like to John's point, they exist. It's crazy that they exist the way that they do in, in these small communities. You would think like, well, of course we all know each other. Well, yeah, but that's not enough because we get blinders on, right? Like we, we come to our monthly meeting and we talk about our set of stuff and sometimes we need to be challenged to like knock those silos down and be sure that we're sharing across groups. So I, I feel all of this like at my core, but I think it might be helpful for people to really understand like what were the disciplines that originally came together.

Yeah, I mean the biggest ones, you know, construction obviously, because if you don't have houses, you need to build houses. And then comes the issue of finance. How do you pay for the houses? And then, you know, from the city side of being able to develop lots or tear down existing houses, build streets, infrastructure, all that type of stuff. Realtors, you know, you could have somebody to move the pieces to make the sales. Those are kind of the core groups. And then we've gotten into, you know, other things, spin-offs of each of those, you know, mortgage versus bank versus credit unions. Finance side of things, investors, city management, just all kinds of stuff with that.

So at the beginning, we actually had 5 people started the company to begin with, and all 5 of them came from each one of those areas. Yeah, and it was really interesting, the interaction that they had, and, and they came up just over and over and over again the same, same problems. And some things, and that's where we're like, okay, we need to attack this. We need to take some of those problems away from the communities.

So what are the primary challenges that working with you for a community, what do you feel like you primarily address? Communication being one of them, right? Like you already said that, trying to get everybody on the same page. But what do you think is either creative or innovative or different about the way you guys approach the work?

I mean, the biggest thing is we start with the people first. So the, you know, within the housing sector, if you don't have somebody wanting to buy that house, no matter how good it is or how well-priced it is, it doesn't matter. And then if you have that person and they can't get the financing, then that's obstacle number 2. So getting somebody that's a qualified buyer, getting them approved for a loan or getting them financed, getting them to sign a contract, I mean, is the biggest thing. So we start with the people first and then kind of work back into all the other things. And, you know, with the cost of construction and interest rates where they are, we found that's where the city component came in, that the cities just have to be aggressive in mitigate— helping mitigate that because there's no other way around it.

Right. I think that was something I was surprised by when we started working with you. And again, this was prior to signing a contract and actually working with you because there is this notion of this final report, and people call it a housing study.

Okay.

Do you wanna talk? Do you maybe wanna like, from your perspective, because what you just shared to me is very different than a housing study. Um, I can share my thoughts in a second, but for you guys, when you hear the words housing study, eh, does that feel in alignment with what you do? And if not, why not? I mean, what's different about the way, the way that you do your field work? Do you think?

Well, there is a housing study portion of our work.

Yeah.

Because there is a lot of valuable information there that everybody needs to understand. But whenever people talk about a housing study to me, I think of a booklet that sits on a desk, on the corner of the desk that you look at once and you put it down. And, you know, if something comes up, hey, maybe I might be able to use that for it, but you're not really sure. Right. What we're trying to do is what we're, we're going to work with the employers and the city and every— and survey them, find out what their needs are, and then have a working live situation where everybody gets to work together. It's not going to sit on the desk anymore. It's going to— we're going to roll our sleeves up and be able to work with that. And Chain, more on— yeah, I mean, I'm going with that.

The housing study in general is just looking at a snapshot in time, right? Yeah, typically it's meant— it's not meant to be a check in the box for a government agency, but it's become that nationwide.

That's totally what it is. I mean, I hate to say that, but all of the federal— all, almost all of the funding that would come either from your state that generally is appropriated from the government, or sometimes like local states make a legislative move to appropriate funding, right? It almost always requires that you have a housing study. And so that's how people have come to think of it. And I just, of course, I hate that because I really, I still really struggle with that entire notion that we need to do all of these things just to even be eligible.

You know what I mean?

Because really, it doesn't make you any more prepared to do anything. Because typically it's like a canvas, like it's a canvassing process, right? Literally, if you gave 10 of us notebooks, we could run through town and figure out what housing is, you know, existing stock. That's just— that doesn't tell you anything. It doesn't tell you what to build, what— who will buy it if you do build it. What I found really fascinating and helpful from the report we got from you guys, and going back to your point, Shane, that you start with the people, I really felt like your process was more of a lead gen process than, than just a, just a here's what you have and here's what, you know, because at the end of the day, the answer is what kind of housing do we need? We kind of need all of it. Yeah. Like there's so many pieces of it that we need, right? So, sorry, go ahead.

But you need to start in a certain spot that makes sense to make the— for sure— in the right direction.

That's right.

Yeah.

The idea that build it and, and they will come, is not true. I mean, you can go out and build a beautiful $400,000 house that is, you know, but if you don't have anybody in your community that can afford that house, you just, you know, you made a mistake.

As of the moment, as of the moment that we're sitting here, there are several single-family dwellings in neighboring communities that have been built entirely on speculation. And they're sitting empty, right? And they're beautiful. So again, it's— you can't argue that the quality isn't there and that it's not the kind of house people want. It at this point is a problem of affordability.

And that's where our studies come in, and we were actually able to talk to people and find out— we can even dig into their finances a little bit and say, okay, this person can afford, you know, a $250,000 or $275,000 house, and that's what we should be building, as opposed to the $400,000 house.

Right.

And I think, you know, that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about an action-based report as opposed to one that sits on your desk.

Right. Well, so when you guys— so I was introduced to you, by the way, if people want to know, like, how we— how I came to Fundy, because you guys are based and headquartered in Iowa. Right. It was actually a neighboring economic developer from another community that put me in touch with you, and then we brought you in. And so again, I'm just going to say this. A lot of communities still don't want the communities around them to win. I am not wired that way at all. And so when we knew we were going to be bringing you physically up from Iowa, you were going to be making that trip, we actually held a regional— I invited everybody from the region that would want to come. And so you ended up, you know, working directly with us here in my community and then a neighboring community. When you think about, like, the people listening to this, um, they may need a resource like you guys. Um, are there— when you think about the ideal community you want to work with, are there certain things that you think about? You know, are there, like, is there a— not a rubric exactly, but what's an ideal community that would be ready and a good fit for your work? What would they What would they need to be or what do they need to consider? I know that's a big question, but—

he said it right there.

But number one, they need to be open-minded because in today's world we can't do things that we've always done. It will not work. It can't work and it's not going to work. So you have to think outside the box. So they have to be progressive and willing to change, willing to be open-minded and willing to do things that they've never done before.

I mean, if they've been doing the same thing for 30 years and they don't have houses, then obviously that's not working.

Exactly.

We have to try something different. And yeah, I think sometimes people think different is chancy. We're not talking about— we're backing it up with research. We're backing it up.

Right.

Real life things that can actually happen. It's just never necessarily been done before. So in a way that we're going about it.

And I think, I think the other key thing here, and again, as, as the people that listen to this show tend to be exactly that type of human, by the way, they tend to be fairly open-minded. And I think, I think the truth is just even, even if the notion of what you're suggesting is new to the community you're presenting it to, it's only new to them. It's untested to them. It doesn't mean that it hasn't worked elsewhere. And we all need to be willing to look outside of the 4 walls of our community and say, what are other people doing? How are other people tackling this problem? And that is also why I will always push for regionalism because I think, I think we grow more when we work together because I don't, I don't see again, this is, I think it goes back to sports in my personal opinion. Like it's so embedded in us that we want to just like ruin our competition, you know, in sports. And I'm like, great. Like that belongs on the field and it belongs on the court and it belongs on the field and track. That's great. It doesn't belong on Main Street because I don't see how Allendale failing helps us win, or Lamoore, or Lisbon, or Foreman, or Milner. Those communities, we don't win because they fail. Fargo might. Like, that's, that's the thing, right? If one of those communities has a colossal failure and they fall apart, it only weakens us.

Right.

And I know that people don't— that's just, that's either a belief you hold or you don't, right? I've, I thought when I went into this work that more of us would hold that thought, and I am in— I was incorrect. Apparently it's a different way of thinking and being.

But the sports thing, you, you nailed it with that. That's a reason. But it's also, it— some of it stemmed from, you know, towns used to self-sustain.

So like, correct, that's true.

15, 10, 15 years ago from our community. So we used to have 18,500 people in our county, now we have 8,500, but the population of our city has not changed. So what happened is all the little small supporting cities shriveled up and then everybody congregated to the bigger cities. And so, yep, all those towns have their self-sustaining entities and everybody had their food bowls and they could guard their food bowl because everybody needed their food bowl. And now globalism has changed that. Yeah, the Walmarts and the things like that has changed how product is moved and how things are produced. And yeah, and now it's— you have to adapt because now you're competing for somebody that wants to live in your community and work across the world, you know.

That's right, that's right. And I thank you for— thank you for pointing that out. You're right, because it's not just a mentality, it's actually just a lack of adopting the shifts to keep up with the realities, I think. Because again, and I so understand and appreciate when people say like, oh, like the good old days are behind us. And I just think like, well, okay, I just— that feels so powerless and so despairing. I just, I can't get into that mindset with people. So I'm more apt to be like, okay, well, what was so great about it? And what does today's version of that look like? Because we can't— we can rail against the realities. We can rail against Walmart, we can rail against Amazon. I don't think they care. Feels to me like, feels to me like a waste of energy. It makes more sense to say, how do we respond to that? And what's appropriate for our local community? And who do we want to be? And where are we going? And all of those questions.

Well, and to go back to your sports analogy, because you just hit a chord with me because I coach football.

Yes, yes, sir. I wondered if you might have something to say about that, John.

Yeah, I'm obviously going to have something to say when you throw that ball out there. Stuff. But, um, see, I look at it completely— if I'm playing somebody really, really good and I get beat, I, I would way rather get beat and play somebody really good and we play well than to win the game and play poorly.

Yeah.

Okay, so agree.

If another, if another community is, is doing something that we're not doing and, and they're— they've got the ball rolling, all that is is a challenge. That means, that means we get to go back to the drawing board and we get to change some things up and then we get to compete with them again. That's, that's where it's at. That's where competition is. And, you know, we— yeah, do we want to dominate on a certain night? Sure. We want to play the best we can. Be somebody really, really good.

Right.

Your community and your area is really, really good. If you are, you know, you're in the southern, you know, the southwest part of North Dakota is kicking tail on everybody. I want to be part of it. I want to be there.

Right.

And I want to be around the 10 communities that are, are kicking tail and working together and, and learning from each other.

And well, that's the key, the key point. It's like whether we're talking businesses or we're talking communities, competition makes us better. It keeps us more focused. It keeps us, we stay more on top of changes. We stay more adaptable. We stay more innovative because we're forced to.

Exactly. And so I, I just, you're only gonna do what you have to do if, if you're getting a long, fine, you're not gonna make changes. Most, most people are just not wired that way. Um, there's few people that are wired that way. But if you have to make changes and you get pushed into, I mean, how many people wait till the last second to do, do something, you know, oh, I'm procrastinating. Well, you, you got yourself in a situation where you had to produce, and there's a lot of our communities right now that are in that situation. They have to start producing.

Right.

And they better try to do something different.

Well, and all I'm going to say, um, and to kind of close out our conversation, I, first of all, I just want to thank you both. Um, it really has been a pleasure to get to know you guys over the last couple of years working, um, with our community and, and basically just trying to unlock, like you said, John, picking, picking at least where maybe the bulk of our assets speak to the next thing to try, right? Like We, we have a plan of what we're going to try and it's going to shift the market. Right. And then that kind of becomes a trickle, like a trickle-down effect, a domino effect, if you will. Like other things start to fall in that the market then shifts. And so it's been so fun to get to work with you. It's been so fun to feel aligned with— you're complete outsiders to me, and I no longer feel that way about you. It wasn't long before, to me, you were just an extension of the work. Work. And I think more of us need to adopt that mindset too. Like, if your community could figure it out on your own, you wouldn't have a housing problem. Right, right, right. So it's okay to reach out and ask people. And so I want to first of all just thank you for, for the past couple of years. It's been truly wonderful to get to know you both.

Well, the feeling goes both ways, Rebecca. You, you do amazing things and have some great ideas. People are really lucky to listen to you and gather the information that you have for everybody.

Well, thank you. And the last thing I want to just say and then get your thoughts on it and I'll let you guys go. I don't think enough of us are considering the cost of doing nothing.

Yep.

How, if anything, does that strike you? Have you seen that? You know, are you seeing that in any of the communities around you?

Yeah, we see it all the time, and we, we actually have a slide that we run sometimes on an empty lot, the cost. I mean, think of it from a property tax perspective. We just talked about this earlier. If you have an empty lot and you have to mow it, you look at that as an expense. But if you have an empty lot that's going to pay $2,000 a year in taxes, you're looking at that as, as an asset that's income-producing. That's how cities have to think. So So if, if it is $2,000 a lot for 100 years, I mean, that's a significant amount of money that's coming to the city that they're not looking at trying to take advantage of. They're looking at it from how do we reduce that $50 a mow or whatever it costs.

Yeah.

And you're going backwards, right?

There's a lot of $50 in that $200,000, right?

Yeah, for sure. For sure there is. And I, I just think I get risk. And I get the fear of risk and the worries and the concerns, especially when we start talking about how these things are funded, which often is through some sort of taxpayer dollars, or there's tax incentives, or there's something. But we don't often— we just continue to kick the can down the road, so to speak. Like, that's the phrase, right? Well, like, that's a problem for another day. The more that we do that, the more the cost of that inaction builds. Over time. Um, and so I do, I think I, that, that's such a great encouragement to leave everybody with, with the subject of housing is just take a look at your city and look at all the underutilized space, whether it's that it has a vacant crappy house on it, it's got no house on it, right? Like if you're not gonna annex in more land and give yourselves this opportunity for a big development, infill is where you have to start. So I just think, I guess the call to action for everybody here today is just don't do nothing because it's costing you way more than these risks that you're so worried about. You're— the mistakes you're worried about making, right, will be far less expensive than the cost of doing nothing.

And you really only have two choices of what you can do, and that's business-related, city-related, whatever, and that's increase your income or decrease your expenses.

Totally.

In today's world, you can only reduce your expenses so far. So the only thing you can work towards is increasing your income. And as a city or business or whoever, how do you do that?

And that's really the question, right? Thank you guys so much for taking time today. Appreciate it.

Appreciate you. Thank you.

Hey, Christy, welcome to the show. Hey, Rebecca, thanks for having me. Uh, it's so good to see your face.

Likewise.

I know we haven't seen it. I know we haven't seen each other in a while, which is never cool, but then we say, let's do a podcast real quick and then we find time. Look at that.

Look at us.

Yeah.

So, okay, you and I have known each other. Gosh, I don't even know for how long, but we've known each other since before I did Growing Small Towns. We've been in each other's orbits for quite a long time.

Yes.

But you have been an early champion of the concept of this organization. You and the Women's Business Center, you came here, right? Like early on when we had just opened our doors in did a little bit of— we were one of the stops on your roadshow when you were kind of celebrating the library. And you've helped with the masterminds. You showed up and we're here for one of those. So you've had a lot of interactions with me and with the organization. So when you think about, you know, what's the point of Growing Small Towns? Growing Small Towns, why does it matter that we exist? What say you, dear friend, from, from your vantage point?

First and foremost, Rebecca, it's you. I mean, it really is. I think the way that you connect communities and build rural champions, you expose the challenges and opportunities of rural communities to a broader base. I mean, I think of, you know, the urbanized centers of North Dakota. We aren't necessarily worried about rural water. We're not worried about broadband. We know we have, you know, we don't have to dig wells in our backyard and test the water because we know we live in a community and we depend on city water. And I think one of the really cool things that, you know, that working with you, partnering with you and getting to know you is that small towns are driving big business. There's, there's such an opportunity for economic growth, um, and, and strong Main Street businesses. And I think that's why, you know, when we think about growing small towns and the importance of, of, of a small town, um, and the work that you're doing, um, is, is the growth potential. Um, by partnering with you, communities leverage and boost, uh, the local economies.

Yeah, I love that. And I think the other thing that's so fun is that the Women's Business Center, you help people grow. I mean, that is, that is a huge part, you know, the consulting, the business coaching, those things that you do it. Because I think, I think when I started this thing, I just really had this deep core belief, and it hasn't changed, which is kind of amazing. I think if nothing else, I'm probably more like firmly entrenched that this is the truth, um, that it's not because— it's not— we don't struggle out here in rural places or small towns because there's not a— there's a lack of resources. Sometimes it's just a lack of the connection to those resources. And, and also, I just think we just have kind of picked ourselves up by our bootstraps and just done it. And, and it doesn't— it doesn't have to be that hard anymore, right? Like, access to the right resources at the right time can can make all the difference in the world. And I just think I was so frustrated. And it wasn't a frustration exactly, but it was like I was having C-suite conversations that to me needed to be Main Street conversations. Like it's, it's all about people development. Big companies are investing in the humans that work for them. And it's like, how do we create the next generation of leaders? And, you know, recruitment and retention strategies are all based on culture and you know, the human side of business. Well, that's every small mom-and-pop shop in Main Street America has the same challenges. It's just that conversation. There's not a way to distill it down for them, not dumb it down. I mean, just get it to them, you know, because like if you work for a company, you usually get paid time off to go and access these things. And I just felt so strongly that this is stuff that everybody needs. Everybody needs access to it. And so the more that we can be kind of that mechanism to either bring the resources or create the opportunities so that people can grow, that's what we care about.

Yeah, 1,000%. I think— and you hit it in so many different ways— but the infrastructures that are built and that collaborative environment is growing sustainable communities across our rural communities.

Right.

And I think as I travel the state, as I get to hear the places and spaces that, you know, small business owners are most proud of. It's these rural conversations that really, really, you know, they're also leaning back into their community. They're also, you know, climbing that mountain, so to speak, but then reaching that hand out and saying, okay, hey, now I want to help the next person and I want to help leverage these other local resources or creating spaces for the ideation of what does our community need. And I think, you know, that really, especially in that mastermind, uh, you know, Rebecca, you did such a great job of curating that experience, uh, and so I applaud the efforts and, and the good work that you're doing. I'm not only in Oaks, but I think, you know, it's been modeled in so many other communities, right?

And I think the other thing that's really cool is, as we're, you know, we're talking, so we're talking a bit about entrepreneurs, right? Like business, business owners. But those business owners, when you think about how engaged in the rest of their community any individual is, that ripple effect is massive. You know, you help a person develop. I mean, I always say this, like, I don't care, pick a skill, any skill, like, like communicate better, communicate through conflict, right? Like understand the importance of like setting and holding boundaries for yourself as a human, right? You, you help someone develop that skill and they develop it in themselves. But again, all of this interpersonal stuff is learnable. It is not like, well, I just suck at dealing with people, so it doesn't matter. Well, okay, that's your decision then. That's a choice you're making. And I want to say, yeah. And did you know that like you could actually— it's a muscle that you could strengthen and we can, you know, like, let's actually talk about that, right? But then that skill follows that person to everything else that they touch. And in a small town, to me, I see that as just the fastest way for us all to get better, you know, especially if we're talking like open-mindedness and creative thinking. And like you said, you used the word ideation and innovation. Those things are ways of thinking, right? And ways of accessing a different train of thought. And it can open up all sorts of things. And I just think that's, that's the future. That's like what the future of not just rural communities, but it's all communities.

It is correct.

And I just think, you know, why, why wouldn't we want to be hopeful and optimistic about where we're going, right?

And you're right, uh, it is a mindset thing. And I think, you know, a lot of the work that we do at the Women's Business Center is really focused on bringing the tools and resources to the business owner where they're at in their business journey. And I think, you know, having, having those tools and resources and having those, those, those safe places to ask the questions that you should know about business but often don't, or, you know, just perhaps some informed business decision-making. There's— and that's how we create communities of scale, thriving communities, inclusive and resilient communities. And then residents feel more connected and invested into the community's future. And I don't think that is limited by size.

Yeah, not at all, not at all. And I think again, like, because we're smaller, I, I actually think there's this ability to be more nimble if we just recognize it, right? And we see that, like, how fast a couple of connections can lead to completely different outcomes for people. Um, and that willingness to share, that generosity spirit, that collaboration. It's just, it's so important to me. And that's why, like, knowing you, knowing the work that you do, knowing that I can— I mean, I send you emails randomly, like, hey, I've got this thing going on, like, what, who do you know? You know, who do you know that I could talk to or connect this person to? It is just invaluable to me. And I think it makes our state— again, our state, we're small, it's a small state population-wise— we can be nimble. So we just sometimes, I think, need to remind ourselves of that, right? Like, we don't have to make it hard. We just need to get to know each other and then support each other to reach out, make those connections, find those resources, all of it. So agree.

Yeah.

So thank you so much, Christy. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us today, and I just will continue to champion all the work that you're doing at the North Dakota Women's Business Center. You are just such a rock star.

Likewise, Rebecca. We couldn't do it without great partners like you. Um, and local champions like yourself. So thank you for the work that you're doing, Rebecca, and the opportunity.

You're wonderful. I love you. Well, hey ladies, uh, welcome and thank you so much for saying yes to sharing some of the growth moments you've had since, um, since we started our organization a couple of years ago.

So good.

Yeah, thanks for the invitation. I think, um, we're so grateful to be involved with and, um, involved with Growing Small Towns and, um, to have this friendship and this partnership because I think, um, it has expanded so many opportunities for us in that, um, you know, your period of growth has also kind of been our period of growth, right?

Yep.

New organization, new moms, new living in a new place, just everything has been new for us in the last year. And so our ability to connect with Grown Small Towns has been just such an invaluable connection for us.

Oh, I, well, I appreciate that so much. So let's talk a little bit about some of the things, because kind of our premise is that when people get better, everything gets better, right? And so, um, because that feels and sounds so intangible, what do you feel like are some of the things that have really helped you? Whether it's that you, you know, you were on our podcast, um, we connect clients to you for grant writing and support like that, but what are some of the things you feel like that tangibles that have really made a difference for you?

Yeah, the biggest that I can think of is the biggest tangible benefit of working with Growing Small Towns has definitely been the connections that we're making with people. We were on the podcast, you know, in the last year, and the number of people who reached out and said, oh my goodness, this is a service that we need in our area, and can you Please help me has been so fantastic because, you know, we feel very strongly about our mission and the communities that we have been surrounded by for so long. But we know that our mission doesn't stop at the, you know, with the confines of those communities. We want to serve broader. And so to be able to connect with people beyond Headinger, beyond Peer, beyond where we grew up in the places that we love, to support additional people. I mean, that's ultimately what we want to do with Realizing Rural is shifting the rural narrative from surviving to thriving, and we can't just do that in tiny little silos of where we're connected. And so those connections have allowed us to expand and kind of step outside our silos.

Yeah, that's awesome.

And to even kind of expand on that a little bit more, I just want to throw out there that we've had people who, listen to the podcast and who have reached out to us clear from— I think the furthest place was Oklahoma. And that really goes, you know, to show the, the, the breadth of connections that we're able to make through Growing Small Towns. And, you know, there's no way that we would have reached out to a gal from Oklahoma and had just the best chat ever about grants and about what we could be doing in their small town, however many thousands of miles away, you know.

Right.

Yeah, Oklahoma to Canada. Is where we have heard from people from the Growing Small Towns podcast.

Oh, that's awesome. I love it so much. It's, you know, it's weird. And I resonate with what you two are talking about so much because, you know, all the work that we do here, we want to impact— obviously we want to— we want to impact Oaks, which is the community that our building sits in and, you know, I live in. But what we get to find with something like a podcast in particular, right, is that you just never know who is actually going to pick it up, who's going to listen to it, and who's going to need exactly what it is that we're talking about, especially with you two having such a clear service, which again, of course, will be linking everything to the two of you to Realizing World so more people can connect with the work that you do. But is there anything else that you've seen or noticed in the last year that you would want to share? Because we're so grateful to know you two.

Well, I think we also just Um, maybe this isn't tangible, but I'm just gonna get like touchy-feely for a minute.

Oh, please do, we welcome that on this show.

Cassidy and I are such dreamers and we're such feelers, and, um, I think sometimes, especially in community development work, you can feel a little bit, um, jaded after a time because it's like, I'm putting all of this in and I'm not seeing the results I need, or or it feels like the community is working against me, or I feel like I'm the only one who's doing anything about this. There's so many opportunities where you can just feel overwhelmed and jaded. And to be surrounded by people who have a similar growth mindset, people who are willing to say, you know, hey, this is tough, but it ain't all bad, and look at these opportunities, and how are we going to move forward for from here. I think just having that, um, that community of people like Growing Small Towns and like you specifically, Rebecca, who are there to say, um, you know, we're here, we love the place we live, and we want to make it better. And it's tough some days, but there are so many opportunities and we're ready to chase them, you know, regardless of the challenges that, that we face. And so I think that, that is really special. And having that place for commiseration, but also like celebration of rural communities and all that, all the opportunities that they bring is really refreshing.

Oh, thanks. I love that so much. You know, I, and I couldn't agree more. And I think, I think the other big thing with a growth mindset is, is really understanding that through the challenges comes growth. Like, we don't— we don't grow when things are easy. So it doesn't mean everything has to be painful all the time, but it's— it gives us a way to reframe struggle so it doesn't seem all bad. Like, actually looking for the lesson or looking for the positivity, looking for the beauty in challenges, because it's— it's always there. Sometimes it's hard to find, sometimes we don't see it for way after the fact, um, but it's always there.

Yeah, so I think that that's been a really beautiful part of this connection too. And I, I find that like Cassidy and I especially just gravitate toward people who, um, you know the saying like, uh, surround yourself with people who feel like sunshine? And I think growing small towns feels like sunshine, right? Like it's, it's a breath of fresh air and we, we need it and we know that others need it. And, um, I think especially kind of our, our rural silos, we need extra sunshine for those cold winter dreary days, which we all have in rural communities, you know, sometimes even throughout the summer.

So exactly. Oh, thank you. Thank you both so much. And so just as a final note, is there anything in particular you really want people listening to this to reach out to you about? What are you, what are you looking for? What are you like? What kind of clients? What kind of folks are you looking for right now in terms of opportunities? Because there's so many ways that you help people.

Yeah, certainly. I think that's a great question. That is a really good question. We are most excited to be working with clients who are working to not only better themselves and their businesses or egg productions or whatever their endeavors may be, but also the broader community. And so I think If that sounds like you, you're someone who's invested in your future, but also the future of your community. We want to work with you and the services we can figure out when we connect. May that be grant writing or project management or marketing. We are happy to do any of those things. But really, we're, we're excited to be working with people who are excited to be working for the good of rural communities. And so if that's you, please reach out. We would love to connect.

I hope you just get bombarded. I mean, in the best way, right? In the best way. Well, you two are doing such important work, and it really is our honor to know you as well. So thank you so much for taking a few minutes out of your day to tell us about how things have gotten better for you. I believe in the power of collaboration. That's one of the big kind of cornerstones of growing small towns from a values perspective. So, um, just so awesome to have you in our corner.

Back at you.