S5:23 - Reimagining Economic Development with Justin Neppl

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Justin Neppl. Justin is an entrepreneur, a husband, a dad, and a community advocate. And he joins us today to talk about economic development as an industry, share a bit of his opinion about where it's been as a former economic development director in the Wahpeton, North Dakota, and Breckenridge, Minnesota communities, and then doing that work for those two, their two respective counties. So he's got experience in multiple sizes of communities from 11,000 down to 100, also two separate states. So completely different like regulations and incentives and all of that. And we are discussing an idea that we're gonna be testing out to just look at a different way, a different approach to how economic development could be done. Done. And even if you're listening to this and your community either is looking to hire a position, we talk a bit about some different ways you could think through what that person should be actually expected to do versus maybe the laundry list of stuff you'd love for them to do. Realistically, what's, what's possible for them? Because also we talk about it from the standpoint of how do we not burn these people out there? It's a really important job. We both believe economic development is important and we both believe that there's some room for looking at different approaches to making it work. So if your community is looking to hire somebody or you're maybe looking to start up a catalyst for this kind of thing in your community, if you don't currently have an economic development group or agency, this episode is for you. All of us that are out here trying to make our communities better, economic development is certainly a piece of that puzzle. And I think there's room. We both think that there's room for more human-centered, people-driven ways to make it happen. So enjoy this episode with our friend Justin Neppl. It's Justin Neppl.

Hi, Rebecca.

Sitting right here in Oaks in our podcast studio.

I love Oaks. Oh my gosh, it was fun to come in here today.

Thanks, man. What was fun about it? Tell our listeners, they're just going to be closing their eyes and picturing.

Sure. So first off, as you drive into town, you definitely know you're in Oaks because there's like 6 signs that tells you, right?

Wayfinding, sir. We're glad you're here. That's— we're just letting you know.

Yep. Yep. And then you get the nice sign. It was off to my right. Phil Hansen. Home of Phil Hansen.

We are really proud of that.

Yeah, it's a big deal. It is. It's a big deal. But then as you drive into town, you get down to your main business drag. As we had just been talking here off the air, a lot of beautiful storefronts. Like, Oaks, I've seen them over the— your community over the years, and it's just people are investing in their buildings. They're investing in the storefront. You got that beautiful park across the way. It just, it's all coming together really nicely.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we're really, I feel lucky to have a business like a storefront right here and actually look out and be inspired and just feel that sense of pride because you can feel it. It's not by accident storefronts and main streets don't stay beautiful and the rest too, not just main street, but the whole of a community. It doesn't stay beautiful by accident.

No, and it takes multiple people, right? So you have to, like you said, inspire other people because Rebecca's not going to do that on her own. Growing Small Towns is not going to do that on their own, right? So other people have to see that, have conversation, figure out how to get it done, and then make the investment, which is probably the hardest part of all that, right?

Yeah, I think though, like, the biggest thing in what I'm hearing you say is just that Lovely reminder, I think, that you're probably the somebody you're looking for. And in terms of somebody should do something about that, right? It's like, well, depending on what it is that we're talking about, what can you do? It doesn't really take a whole lot of skill to point out what's wrong or what should be fixed. It takes a different level of skill and I think contribution too, right? To say, okay, Well, what can I contribute to this? Or what can I add to it? Or how can I help make this thing happen?

Yes, obvious stuff, right? So I think everybody wants to be in a good community that's vibrant. And I can't remember who's used this analogy in the past, but I've used it quite a bit. But your downtown should be your living room, right? And you always—

I don't know where this came from either, but I've heard it before.

Yeah, yeah. And you want your living room to be a place where people want to hang out. So if your downtown of your community is not a place where people want to hang out, or if that's not your living room of your community, you should be trying to engage people that want that same thing as you do because it's not easy to do on your own.

Right. Yep, totally agree. Okay, so you came over today, we're talking, we had a great conversation before we hit record here, and we have some things that we're working on together, but we basically, how long? So I'll back up. We got out of economic development on the same day.

Yep.

December 31st, 2024. And you were one of the first people I connected with when I got into economic development kind of officially. And you've just been a great partner, been a great friend this whole time. And so it was kind of like, should we be like having a, are we having a celebratory drink? Are we drinking away our sorrows? What's happening? When we both exited the industry kind of as it, as it was. So what, you know, tell us a bit about your, your role in economic development. Like, help for our listeners maybe round out, like, what's the size of the communities that you primarily worked in? Because you had a, a dual-county region, which is a specific model that we were kind of talking just generally about economic development as an industry and what changes we see happening and where I think what are the scary parts, maybe like the big challenges and what are, or obstacles, but also just what are the opportunities and like what are the areas that we could, if we'd open our minds and hearts a bit, could explore. But I think we should start with, for people that don't maybe know you, you know, what was economic development like for you?

Yeah, so I covered a multi-county area and it was a multi-state area as well.

Right.

You know, the communities range anywhere from 11,000 people down to 100, right? So the two counties together were 22,000. So not a large area, but also not too small. We were large enough to be able to, you know, talk to large egg producers, manufacturers for consideration of relocation because of a population base. Yep. But we weren't too big where we also, we cared about the main street business. We cared about the startup, those folks too. So we catered to that on both ends in our economic development office. Yeah, so that was generally our focus was anywhere from that person who was interested in the startup and all the way to we're responding to an RFP through the state as far as, you know, what are the water needs for a business? What are electrical needs for a business?

Right.

Do we have land? Do we have rail? Those types of things. Mm-hmm.

So overall for you, did you feel like your agency was more reactive or proactive, just kind of as a general rule? And if, did that shift at all over time? And did that impact you as the person kind of leading it? 'Cause you were specifically, you were the director, right?

Yep. Yeah, so great question. When I first got in, I was in it for 6 and a half years, it was, I was the very first employee and it was a new entity. So there was no playbook.

Yes, you built it. You built it from the ground up.

It truly was a startup and we treated it that way, right? So we had to build out the network. We had to— I had to find an office, I had to buy equipment. I just had a budget. That's all I had. And so I went through those processes, built out the network, and we kind of drove focus, right? So a couple of key things that happened in 2018, hemp became legal. So we started as a region deciding to go after hemp or hemp potential projects and understanding that that could be a potential to go into the future. There was reasons to do that. We're big in ag where we're at. That was one. So looking at diversifying crops. Another was we had a key person on our board and in the community that was very well knowledgeable and was doing business in the hemp industry already.

Okay.

So we could rely on him to understand who was going to be, you know, a pretender or contender in different business situations because he was doing that already for 10 years. So we would focus on certain things and we were very proactive at the beginning because we were building what we wanted to do. We, and we were on a shoestring budget, like everything we did, we had to put together with purpose and be mindful on spending and tax dollars and whatnot. So we were really driving our way and I thought we had a lot of momentum. We had a lot of attention in our region. We were attending a lot of things and saying, hey, come here, come look at us. And whatnot. Things slowly changed the last 3 years where there was different interests that came in. There was some cash that were made available, and then priorities changed. We went from maybe just looking at jobs and job creation and whatnot and included housing after the fact. And what happened, we built out an infrastructure and deployed a bunch of cash into housing that made us just being reactive to things that were going on.. And we were just kind of maintaining an office, maintaining an economic development. I don't know, when you have a bunch of spec homes that are underneath government control, you kind of have to be in making sure that the heat's still on, that the place is mowed and— Right.

So you almost felt like you were dealing with almost a maintenance, like maintenance kind of function versus creation and, well, development. The word development would, you know, would suggest more of that proactive versus reactive. That's, that's the thing that's so interesting, I think. Um, and, and the, and the dissolution of this agency is, is such an interest— it's just an interesting case study. Um, I think given where we're at right now, we were just talking about this, there's a lot of communities, um, my own included, that, uh now is either seeking an economic development director. Our position right now is posted as full-time. The neighbor, you know, the neighboring community needs one. I don't even know what's going on with the county between our communities. I'm not sure. There's just— and that question that I keep asking is just what, what is changing in this industry And are our communities adjusting accordingly, or are they just continuing to say, well, this is what we've always done, so this is what we're going to do? And is there room for a different path? Like, what do you really think, given the fact that you're, you know, you're now out of the day-to-day of it?

Yeah.

Where do you see it going, the industry?

It's a good question. You know, there's neighboring communities too that we were talking off offline here about, I don't think you were, you weren't aware of it, that did the same thing. They had privatized at a 501. They had business support.

Yes.

They dumped that and elected to bring it in-house into the city and versus having it deployed, which I think historically was always in City Hall. Then you saw movement out of it and then you saw it more in the private sector and trying that way, getting business support and maybe the city threw in some money or the county threw in some money. But now you're seeing it move back, and I think—

Move back to the private sector?

Move back to the government sector.

Oh, move back to the government sector.

In certain cases, simply because I think elected officials want control.

Yeah.

And that's the easiest way to control it is by having elected or an employee that, that you can, you know, terminate, hold over, whatever, versus having a contracted deal. Now, I personally think the contracted way is much better. Yeah, because I think you can be much more flexible on a contract than you can just having an employee. But, you know, the reality is election cycles happen and people will get elected and they have agendas and they have things that they want to get accomplished. And, and whether you're an economic developer for a city or county or you're on a contract, you might not be a part of their agenda.

That's right.

And that becomes a bit of a challenge. And I see really good economic developers leave the industry or leave a community because they are— they're a result of that happen, that election cycle. They're really good at what they do. But, but somebody comes in and maybe they want to work on housing and these guys like, we're having great success and in business recruitment, we're going to stay on that path. Or they just have— maybe they have a disagreement how to tackle housing. And then they, you know, they get in a, not a fight, but they, that disagreement leads to them not being employed anymore.

Right.

And changing direction. They want to hire their guy, they want to hire their gal, they want to hire their person, whoever that is, and they want to deploy them into the community.

It's, I just, I think it's the other thing I want to explore with you is just the idea of if you're looking to fill a position like this, What's the, what's, what are the pros and cons of the person living in your community versus not having ties to the community? Because I've seen right just here in North Dakota, really clear examples of somebody that full-time was a full-time economic developer in a community, um, that she didn't live there and she was very successful. Um, and I think, you know, like for me, the pros of that are just, you don't have to necessarily face down your constituents in the grocery store. So there's a bit, a bit of, um, maybe a protective layer for that, for the person in the job. It gives that kind of arm's length distance a bit where, uh, and then, then the flip side of that is people are like, well, that they don't care about the community. And I don't necessarily think that's entirely true. So I would love your take on that. You know, some of these communities that are looking at it, I've seen where some communities are actually making that a requirement, you know, that you, that you live or move to the community. And I just seriously wanna know, what you think about that because you were serving communities you didn't live in. It was a two-county area. Obviously, you lived in one of the communities, but—

Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily important. I mean, do you get an advantage of understanding what it is on a day-to-day basis living in a community and some of the challenges? Sure. But that isn't the whole reason why you have somebody live within the community to provide those services for you. I think first and foremost, they just have to be really good at what they do.

Right.

I would much rather have somebody who is really good at what they do live outside the community and serve the community than be somebody who chose to live in the community, but aren't— they're not good at what they do.

Right.

So I don't—

It might create a limit. I mean, for communities right now, right? Especially rural communities.

Yeah.

You have a small pool of people to choose from. And unless you have a large enough salary and kind of overall compensation package to recruit somebody new, you know, attract somebody from outside your community to it, like they're going to move for that job.

Yeah, it's tough.

It's tough.

Yeah, you don't see that happening very often. And it's one of the other challenges too. So the industry itself, um, it's really kind of taken, I think, a turn. So the, the people who are really good, they're going to get $150,000 a year just on their salary. You got your overhead on top of that, the office expenses and stuff like that. Not a lot of communities, not even the community I was in, the area that we were serving, would have been interested in that type of salary. Right.

So, I mean, that's such a nice way to put it. They would not have been interested. They would not have been keen on offering that much money.

Right. It's a lot.

It's a lot. That's a big salary.

Yeah. So the rock stars are they're getting it, but they're going to have to move and they're usually to larger markets and they have— that has their own set of challenges. But I mean, how does, how does a community in rural North Dakota afford that? I mean, they can't. So there you almost have to figure out a different way to do that.

Right.

Is it, is it through, is it through a remote position? It can, can a lot of those services be delivered through remote? Is it, is it partnering with a group of people that maybe have, you know, a bunch of different skill sets that offset each other and try to develop an organization that can provide services cheaper than one person that is a full-time employee, but almost get like the full-time benefit.

Right. So, yeah, let's talk about that in just a second. The other thing I just wanted to say about like the 150K employees that are in economic development in large communities, they're also specializing.

Sure. 100%. Hard.

You know, where in, so let's say there's 7 lanes of economic development. I don't know. I, this is, this is just a, let's say hypothetically there's 7 lanes in a small community. You are bobbing and weaving in and out of every single one of those things. And there's a tax on the, on the professional doing that work in a small town too. Like my, my joke, my analogy instead of like lanes is you're basically expected to wear all 7 hats and wear them fashionably. We all know that some hats are just not made for everybody's head, right? Like, this is ridiculous. But in a big city where you can specialize, and that's the hard part, is if there are like rock stars in economic development and kind of people just hobbling along, that specialization just widens that gap. Mm-hmm. You know, where they get better and more honed and they stay on top of trends. And research and what's coming for their lane. I think about that, like, just seriously think about that. That's— I just felt so, um, I just felt so overwhelming to try to even dabble in all the things that was expected of a position. Um, and also I wanna make sure we don't sound like we're— there's no hope for people that are doing rural economic development. I think it's just fair to honestly talk about that, that challenge, because it's really— it's hard.

Yeah.

What was the hardest, like, for you when you were in it? What was the hardest thing for you? Was there a facet of the work that was hard for you to, to like step into, whether it was just not really all that interesting to you? I'm super curious. I've never asked you that question before.

Yeah, I think marketing and communication. So yeah, that was not my background. My background was banking and then into business consulting and into economic development. So for me, I like the one-on-one. I loved getting in and solving problems, but getting in front of rooms, getting in front of, you know, councils, things like that, that's not what I wanted to do. I did do it, but I didn't do it enough. And we— I lacked the ability to be able to promote our region to people.

Kind of tell and tell the story, tell the story of your work even too, right? So kind of The community, that's the communication side of it. Marketing is a whole thing. I, it's super interesting too in rural places who owns that generally. I don't sometimes like our chamber does most of the marketing of this community in a kind of that public-facing way, right? Yep. Um, and I think that, and again, I don't know that there's like a right answer. It's just, I, it's an area that gets left behind and it's so important. Like how are people gonna know you want anything in your community, if you're looking for somebody, you're looking for a baker, a candlestick maker, like a butcher, baker, like that whole thing, like how are they going to know that you have that if you're not actively out there? But yeah, it's easy and understandable that that would be like a thing that would fall by the wayside pretty easily. It's like, I'm trying to do the work. I don't have time to also then talk about the work that I've just done.

No, it is. And, you know, a lot of times too in economic development, especially in public meetings, you can't talk about the work you're doing.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so you can't—

Right, that's super challenging.

Yep. So, and it gets a little bit frustrating. I mean, you could have one-on-one calls with board members, council members, but again, what's the trustworthy that they can keep their mouth shut and not share the information that you are sharing with them? Yeah. You want to be able to communicate with them to let them know, hey, these are what the things I'm working on, but hey, you can't talk about this because it's still sensitive information. Right. And it can't be released yet. So.

Yeah. Short of everybody signing NDAs every time you sit down with them.

Yes.

Right.

Right.

Yeah. And there's, and that's, that's, I think you're touching on something too for me that was, it was just a hard facet of the job because I would like, as a human, if I'm gonna err on a side of something when it comes to, to communication, it's always on the side of transparency. Um, and obviously, private information or like not ready for public consumption. Information is just a part of this job, you know? And so it's not like I couldn't hold that. It's just, it sometimes felt like that actually is a block to accessing the things you need or the people you need or the resources you need because you can't fully talk about it. So some of that work ends up feeling isolating too.

It really does. I mean, The reality is, in the world we live right now, is that there hasn't been a better time to be in business in the history of the world, right?

Agree. I totally agree.

Yep.

Yeah. And full agreement.

And there isn't a better country to do business in than the United States. But the reality is, we're— and this is why economic development stays really important. The government has never had its a bigger role in business ever. I mean, everything— you want to start a business, you got to file with the state. Chances are you need to go talk to the community about zoning or the city council on zoning or the planning commission. Right. You know, and a lot of times these communities, right, wrong, or indifferent, the cost of everything has gone up. You have to get some sort of, you know, government incentive of a TIF, tax abatement. Gap financing through the city or county. I mean, they, they play so many different roles within that. And that's why I still think economic development is such a big deal, because every— you know, people— I always say this all the time when I was in economic development business consulting— nobody's born in their DNA knowing how to start a business or who to talk to. And that's why business consultants exist and EDA directors exist and whatnot, because it's Okay, here's your challenges, here's the people we need to go talk to. And yeah, we'll take some of that, offload some of those challenges for you and we'll figure out, you know, some of your needs for you and whatnot. So because we do want to make sure that we get as many people into business that deserve to be in business as we possibly can. But we have to interact with government. Government is a part of every step of the way. They can decide whether you're going to stay in business or be out of business pretty quite easily. So the regulatory component of that, the changes that come down, all those things, just be able to have conversations with elected officials is a big deal.

Well, and the time we're living in right now is just like federally is a really key example of that, right? Like entire markets get not— I don't want to say compromised, but get— they adjust. Based on regulations and decisions and policies that get made. So yeah, it's definitely a challenging position. So, okay, so you had alluded to the idea of experts, like a group of people. So let's talk about that because we're kind of test— we're low-key, that's like my kids' lingo, like we're low-key testing an idea where we are trying to say, okay, what would it look like if kind of a suite of humans came together, right? So share, share whatever you want about that kind of, and how it was born out and like, what do you think? Or like, again, maybe what are the pitfalls of that? Or, and we won't know, we won't know until we do it. So again, if all we're ever doing is only things that have been fully tested, we're probably not taking enough risks.

I, I would agree. Like, I would agree.

Anybody listening to this, like if you, yeah, if it has to be something that's been proven out, where does Where does, where do new ideas even get to live, right? So this is, uh, again, I don't know if this is a brand new concept all the way around, if you've seen this in a different community or market, or how, like, maybe how did this come, this idea even come to you?

Yeah. Um, I know when you approached me to, to come on here, you asked me, I think, why? And then I was like, you know what, I didn't even think about why. When I did this because for me so much stuff is instinct, right? So something happens, I instinctually do things. And really what happened was in a local market that I live, the previous EDA office that I used to work for dissolved. Right. And I was part of one half of the territory. I was on the understanding of that they were already in the process of figuring out how they were going to do economic development. So I went and approached some of the elected officials that were on the other half of the economic development territory that I was serving and just said, hey, what are you guys— what are you guys doing? And they're like, well, we really don't have a plan right now. Yeah, but we need to do something. We all agree to that. So what I did was I'm more of a we instead of me kind of guy.

You definitely are.

Yeah. So what I did was start, you know, calling people who I thought were really good in the industry, including yourself.

Thank you for that, by the way.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, hey, what do you think about doing this jointly? And, and it wasn't, it wasn't just, it was probably more strategic than this. And even though I didn't think this through entirely, I knew I needed to find people that were better than me or offset my skills, right?

And yeah, that's what's been interesting, right? Like the skill set in this particular group of 5 people is there's a, there's a big variation. Yes, it's wild actually. So it's going to be— it's also fun for me as like an org dev minded human, right, where I think about, geez, like where they're— and it's not even— I wouldn't— I would never drill it down to personality conflicts. It's not about personality exactly, but it's just about actual perspectives on the world and the way that we each see things, and they don't they don't like perfectly marry, but I think they can. I mean, I think, I think those things, again, it's just good communication, good internal dynamics, and maybe some structure that we're kind of, kind of working through as we go. Right. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's been really fascinating because a couple of people for sure have really specific skill sets that kind of that question earlier, like what lane did you not want to, I, I'm just like, and I think I've very bluntly on some of our calls been like, I don't ever want to have to be a part of those conversations if I can help it. It's the stuff that really almost killed my soul when I had to do it locally. And that's not a good, and I want to just say that it's not about me being dramatic. I use dramatic language. It's who I am. Just everyone's going to have to deal. But it's about truly that I want everybody to the degree that it's possible. I want people waking up every day feeling generally motivated and excited and somewhat compelled to do what they're waking up to do. And I get that that's lofty, but I feel like our communities can only get better when more of us are, are operating that way. So for me, it wasn't just about like, oh, I'm being whiny and I don't like it. It actually took me so far out of my natural gifts that I felt it was hard for me to do Mm-hmm. Right? And that's what's challenging, I think, about the— these like really broad job descriptions for like economic development people. It's— it's like you have to be like a dreamer and a visionary and a risk taker, you know? And those are things that I think I kind of go, yeah, great, check, check, check. And then you also have to be a project manager and a detail-oriented person and, you know, highly in charge of your budget, you know? And it's like, business attraction in industry and supporting quality of life initiatives require truly like vastly different skill sets.

Yeah, 100%.

And it's sometimes, sometimes it was just like, oh my gosh, do I have to be like multiple personalities to make this work? And I think some people actually can maneuver in and out of those things easier. There, for me, when I got way out of my natural gifts, It was draining and hard and I didn't enjoy it. And that's nobody's fault. That's, it's just a realization. I think it's important for every single person listening to this too. Like, I hope people think about that.

100%. And I think it's always good for us to get pushed out some of those comfort zones and not live there. Agreed. But when it's a huge part of your job, it's probably not the right job either.

Right. Right.

And that's kind of where I think to where this, this maybe works, because it's not that I'll never have to communicate, right? I'll probably never have to market, but I'll know— there'll be times where I have to communicate.

Can you imagine if we could create a position where you never had to communicate? I don't know, what would that even look like?

Right, right.

That's why I think people skills matter so much, because you can't really ignore them. But yeah, yeah, right.

But it might not be that you never have to answer a phone call for an RFP because what happens if we're tied up this, that, or the other thing? Okay, right.

We step in.

We need a little bit of coverage. So, yeah, but you have enough experience, you've done it before, that, that it could move along into a process or until we can step back in or something like that. So I think that having people that are focused in an area, especially like for me, focused in an area that I'm not good at or don't want to do, a lot, it makes tons of sense as far as forming a partnership and delivering these economic development services to a community. And, you know, from our perspective, it's— we've had good conversations with the local elected officials. It's not that it is a for sure right now, but everything's kind of looking like it's a for sure thing.

Yeah.

Where we might be able to provide these services into 2026. But if that's successful, we've already started having that conversation. What does that look like into the future? Can we serve additional communities? Can we grow? Can we, you know, can you, Rebecca, teach people underneath you to maybe go into different regions to do what you do really well?

Right.

And I don't know.

How do we scale this? What does scaling even mean? Right. All of those questions like, yeah, I think it's— to me, it's so fun because we're just— what I was just thinking as I was listening to you is like, we're just going to learn so much.

Mm-hmm.

You know? And that's really, I mean, that's what I'm here to do is get challenged and learn. And I think we learn when we are outside of our comfort zone. But like you said, there's a difference. And I, again, I don't wanna gloss over it too much because it's not just about jobs, it's about where people show up in the community from a volunteering standpoint. Yep. There are so many times that people are volunteering And I would never label it the wrong reasons, but if every single time you have to go to the thing that you're volunteering for, it's actually like a slog on your soul and you just hate it and you're doing it out of guilt or resentment or whatever the thing is, I just, I wanna remind everybody like there's somebody better equipped to do whatever it is that you're doing naturally. And you are taking— not only, I always said, like, if guilt's your thing, then you're taking it from somebody. Shame on you. Yeah, I don't, don't actually want to guilt people, but I just don't think, um, and this is something this last year has really been a huge time for me to reflect on, where is my energy actually best spent and where does it get renewed? Where does that expenditure return back to me instead of just straight up holes in the bottom of the bucket.

Yep.

Right? And everybody, like, our energy is really— our time, our attention, our energy is the most precious resource that we each have. So thinking about what are the things when I give to it that I feel, again, that natural giftedness or kind of innateness to do, it's just, it just makes things feel better.

Yep.

You know, and you can, yeah, you can do great work because you feel good about it.

Yeah, you're put on earth to do this, right?

So yeah, right.

Yeah. So I mean, for you and your highly successful Growing Small Towns thing, this is economic development in a nonprofit without getting chartered or tasked by a city. That's, you are a local individual who said, hey, I want something better for my community. But it is economic development at the end of the day, right? It's community development. It's pulling that forward. And, you know, and I understand the challenges of all that stuff and how do we, you know, secure budgets and make sure all that stuff is good. But at least you feel, you know, filled, your cup's filled at the end of the day. And maybe that's some of the things that this group here in the economic development side of things can bring to you as well, well, it generates some revenue. But I don't think any of us that sat down at the table, that's the why we were there. It was—

No.

It was more so of, okay, we have skill sets, we like using these skill sets for the benefit of a community. Let's sit down and see if we can deploy these as a group and really give some true impact, some true ROI in economic development, which doesn't happen very often, right? That's right. True ROI does not happen in a lot of economic development situations. So low cost to get in for the, the county, city, and use our talents locally in order to develop a community that everybody wants to be in.

Yeah, it's, it's gonna be a fun experiment, and that's how I see it. The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns podcast studio, local located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough, and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge, and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you. Today's small town shout out is Hankinson, North Dakota. We alluded to them twice in this episode. One is the example of what their CDC has done for their local community for revitalization, and the second was, uh, I referenced a YouTube clip. We did find it. We located it, and it's gotten a ton of views. It's, it's just wild how the intent of this creator went to Hankinson, and they ended up with this unexpected surprise. There's lessons every single one of us can take from it. We have posted it in the show notes. Please be sure to check it out. And again, we just want to shout out Hankinson. Thank you for for being a small but mighty community, just brimming with local pride, local investment, and a lot of success. We can't wait to see what you do next. And so the other thing too is I, I wanted to ask about this just because, um, there's a community in your previous territory that had a really scrappy and kind of private sector focus. On community and economic development. Does that still feel true? Like who I'm calling out?

Oh yeah. Yeah. I just, I talked to him yesterday.

Can we just call him out?

Yeah, I'm fine with that.

Okay.

Bob?

Yeah. In Hankinson, North Dakota. Yeah, I'm good. We're going to give Hankinson their proper due because, you know, they— so, and again, I think when I think about like who's listening to this, sometimes if there's not an established economic development anything, it can very much feel like, well, who, like, how, what do we do and how do we start? So do you, you know the origin story of the Hankinson CDC, right?

I'm sure.

Or like enough, enough to kind of articulate how they started. So can you share a little bit about that? Because that was, that was started in the, in the, from the private sector. People came together and said, hey, we need to do something.

Yeah, so in my community or in the region when I served that, Hankinson was one of 20 communities.

Yeah, lots of people. Lots of towns.

And we— and Hankinson was probably the third largest community that we served, but was by far the best at community business development.

And how big is Hankinson?

Just roughly 1,000 people.

That's okay. That's what I thought. I just wanted to So just again, to give people some sort of perspective or context.

Yep. So working, working with Bob and his team, there's— I think there's 5 or 6 very active local business owners. That's the key, local business owners that are on the CDC that drive a lot of stuff. And Bob, Bob's a banker, so he understands risk. He understands the finance side and all that other stuff, which helps that group a ton. But I will tell you how that, that community would have not done the things that they did or grown the way they did without Bob and the 5 or 6 people, because the 5 or 6 people have kind of changed over the years. You know, some people get a little bit older, they need to retire, but they bring in and they mentor the next, next group and, and make sure that they— and it's not like they don't get it, you know, challenged internally either. You know, that's, that's all part of the process. But what they do, they— a business closes on Main Street in their community, their CDC will go in and buy that building, right? And they'll make the improvements. And then they'll try to figure it out. But they understand that if they don't go in and do that, then you have dilapidated building, you know, you have weeds growing on the property, and it just doesn't look good. So they take risks all the time. Like, that's, that's just what they do.

They've invested in the Fit-ups of like 4 specific businesses, which I just— I love that. I love those guys so much. I do. And I, I haven't seen Bob for a while, um, so hopefully he will have to admit, like, we talked about you extensively on a podcast, Bob. You should listen. Um, but that's, that's the— that's the— they— to me, it was such an interesting example because, um, instead of saying like, we're chartered to do this thing, right, or we're— our bylaws dictate that we X, Y, or Z. They're just like, well, this is the smart thing to do, or this is the right thing to do. And they— and so it's this like scrappy, like in, in the moment, in real time decision making that didn't rely on a bunch of meetings and a bunch of, you know, like they just— and they, they, the peop— the people that were originally a part of it put their own money up, didn't they? Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought. And And so again, I just, I want people to realize that like economic and community development, it can look like a lot of things. And I think the industry itself, kind of the traditional way of thinking about it, which they used to call it chasing smokestacks, right? Like we're trying to recruit big manufacturers. It's not that that means nothing or isn't important anymore. It just isn't the totality of the role anymore. Right. You know, the idea of how do we get people to choose our community? Well, especially I think that's the biggest thing is like people, it's not just about jobs. Jobs doesn't drive and motivate the behavior like it used to.

Right.

Right. As we become more mobile, as remote employment is an actual option for people, like if they can work anywhere, then they have to want to live where in your community. And so how are you— what are you doing to make that a compelling offer to them? And do you even know why people should want to live in your community?

I think most people can't answer that, but you go into Hankinson and they can, right? And if they're not all sure on that, they'll figure it out the next week because that's something that they don't want to leave hanging out there.

Well, there's that YouTube— I think it's on YouTube, isn't it? That example or that situation where somebody came in and the way that they were treated by a staff person in, I think, in City Hall. We'll find this and we'll post it in our show notes.

Okay.

Um, it kind of made Hankinson, North Dakota go viral. Like, it was a huge deal. Um, and it was, it was like, I think— I feel like I'm mixing my stories up, Justin. I didn't expect to talk about Hankinson, so I would have researched this ahead of time. But any— we'll find it and we'll post it. But it was this example where I think the person was actually doing kind of a gotcha kind of situation. And then the actual city employee just blew their minds because they're— they're like— they were like proud. They just displayed all of these things, like pride in the community, a willingness to help. Because like what this woman didn't say is, well, that's not my job.

Sure.

You know what I mean? She just— and she walked him down the street to something. It was just like so cool. And And that's something that you don't— there's not an outside entity that's going to come in or like a structure within city government that's going to necessarily create that. But what can happen, I think, and what I think is the power of all of us in our communities is we can create environments where we foster it.

Yes.

And it's noticing it. It's appreciating it. There's— again, this is why it gets so dang I just keep beating the drum of the fact that like humans, we make things better by being better. It says that we don't have to wait for anybody to do anything. We just have to pay attention, fix things, right? And then when you see somebody else fixing something, like there's this weird— Kasia and I are chamber director. We were just talking this morning. I'm going to call her out too. What the heck? We're just calling everybody out. Her name is Lisa, Lisa Schultz. She and her husband Kenny moved back here. They're Oaks— Lisa's an Oaks native. They moved back here and Lisa is one of those people that pulls other people's weeds, like not in their— not necessarily in their yards. Like she doesn't go up, but we— I saw her, we saw her. She had a big like black garbage bag and she was totally cleaning out a signed— like a signed area in one of our public parks.

Okay.

Now, I mean, anybody could be like, well, that's not her job. Why does she, you know, why does she have to do that? Well, it actually just the weeds that were in it bothered her enough that she was like, I'm going to do something about this. And she just weeded it.

To be honest, I feel like I'm in that stage of my dad life where I want to do that out in general population or areas in my community.

Yeah. Just go out and be like, oh, these weeds.

Yes.

But it's, it's crazy, right? I've seen her pull weeds off side— like, public— there's public sidewalks. Technically, technically they belong to some— that's somebody else's problem. But it's— she is just one of those people that's like— well, and Kenny too, they're just— they're— they show up to everything. And it's like, if I could just— if we could just clone that care and concern. Like, she doesn't go, this is the city's sidewalk. She says, well, this is— this is an Oaks sidewalk. And this is my town. And even if all of us did just a tiny bit more of that, think of, think of, think of the ripple effect of that or the cumulative benefit of that.

Yeah.

It's just really, it's really cool. And so I think some of it too is when you get an opportunity to thank somebody like that, like doing that, do that. Point it out to them, you know, because there's people like that that live in our communities and sometimes we forget. Just, just that they don't have to and they are because they want to.

Yeah, you, you and, you and I are different. Like, we'll, we'll buy a dilapidated or a slum property because we'll see, we'll see what, what that could be. 90% of people won't. They could have the capacity to invest in that property. And this is why it's super important to have people like that in your community that are mindful of that. You keep the weeds down, you keep the garbage off the property, that type of stuff. It's just a little bit more attractive. And you have the ability to attract more capital, more people who want to jump in. It doesn't, it doesn't work that way. There's very few people who actually will run towards dilapidated property or, you know, blighted property and say that I really want this project, right? That's, that doesn't happen. But if if that thing looks like it's well kept and whatnot, you know, your ability to be able to attract a business, some capital for, you know, silent partners or things like that goes way up.

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I look at— I look in— we're sitting in our— my building, right? Like, this never would have happened if there wasn't the tie and the legacy and all the things to— like, it literally was a compulsion that wasn't going to let go. I You know, if this, if this had been any other property, I'm not sure we'd be sitting here and I'd be— I'd have done it. So that's a whole thing in and of itself. But yeah, I just think, um, I think the quality of life stuff and like the vibe check of a city or of a community, it matters. It matters in a way that it didn't even 5 years ago.

No, you're 100% right.

I mean, and you were in it, right? Like, and that's And I wonder too, a little bit, if, if that, that shift, that of not of priorities, but of recognizing that this matters and isn't like a separate thing, but it's almost the wraparound around all of it. Like who we are as a community, what it feels like to live here, work here, do business here. Right. Um, it mattered in a way that it suddenly became, yeah, he couldn't really ignore it. And it makes me wonder if the the feeling of being more reactive was actually a fear on the part of either some of your, you know, the board members or whoever it was that was kind of driving that. But it's just, I feel like I can kind of sense this collective like, oh, well, we don't know how to deal with that or what to do about it. And so we're just going to continue to pretend it doesn't exist. And then, and then you absolutely become reactionary.

Yeah.

Instead of, instead of looking ahead and being like, no, we've got this, right? And you get more protective, less trusting.

Yep.

Right. And as soon as like trust starts to decline and vulnerability, openness, honest communication starts to decline in and among a group of people, whether it's a business, a nonprofit, an EDA.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter. It starts, it starts to impact your results.

It does 100%. And that's the biggest challenge too, right, on, on what you're just described there as having the trustful, honest conversations and keeping an impact. And honestly, a great nonprofit board, EDA board, they're going to hold you accountable, but they're going to let you do what they hired you to do.

Right.

And as long as you are staying true to the mission and staying in budget, and you communicate what your activities are, go. Right? Right. Go be successful. Go do you. Go do why, you know, what we hired you to do.

Right. You know, the other thing that's kind of interesting as I think about economic development, when I was out in Washington, we were kind of talking about this. I don't remember the exact question, but it was something related to like, what happens if I have no experience in X, Y, or Z? And it's one of the 7 lanes I'm supposed to pay attention to, to keep coming back to that. And all I said was, I think part of what's just a truth, and so for anybody doing this work, and especially in a small community, and you're now that person that's like, oh, now put on your city government and city council communication hat, right?

Whatever.

And then, you know, put on your industrial park development hat. And I was like, I didn't even know I had one of those in my closet. What is happening? I think it's just, it makes sense, and I wish that there would be a bit more generosity towards the people in this role. So if nothing else, this is my love note to them, having been in it and just know how hard it is. The position is gonna be, it's gonna skew in the favor of your skill set.

Yes, 100%.

You know, and so, so yes, you may be hired, you get hired to do a job, Paula Jensen, right? But the nuance, I mean, the, the reality lives in the nuance of that, which is whatever your innate gifts are, your actual skills, your experience, whatever kind of you brought to the table, most of the work is going to be, uh, it's going to be skewed in that, in that favor. And, and that means that the community should understand, the people who hired you should understand that. And that's where I think I think using outside providers, outside resources, tapping into other experts, like we need to give these poor people in their small town economic development roles, we need to give people the latitude to do that.

Yeah.

Right? Because dang, otherwise you just feel like you're falling short. You fall short in every area but the one that you really know yourself in. And if the community can't allow you to stand in that most of the time, you're going to struggle.

Yeah.

And that's any job too, right? Like, that's not just economic development. That's business too. The private sector is not any different. And I think too, like, and like, I don't know, have you, have you met any just in your, in your 6 and a half years of experience? Did you ever come across just like a truly crabby economic developer?

All the time.

Right. And it's the first thing I think about is just like, And you're the person talking to prospective businesses, Main Street business owners or residents.

Yeah. And generally most of those people, to be honest, what they would do, they didn't, they didn't actually have beliefs, core beliefs themselves, in my opinion. And there's a lot of people who I have high respect in economic development world that have told me this, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Those guys were always just being reactive to what the council wanted to do. And that's why they got crabby.

Yeah.

Because they wanted to hold their job more than what they wanted to actually do the right thing.

Yeah. Or what they actually set out to accomplish.

Yes, correct.

Yeah.

Yep.

Right.

So they, a new person, they got hired by somebody who was probably great for 2 to 4 years. And then the election cycle, whatever, It changes. But I was honestly told by somebody who I admire greatly that really good economic developers only last about 7 years at one job because on the government side, because yeah, right, there's council turnover, there's county, their commissioner turnover, that type of stuff. They just end up, they end up either having to move on, you know, by choice, or they just get let go because they just don't see eye to eye. Generally speaking. So it makes tons of sense. And I think people who do hang on, bless your heart if you're one of them listening. But again, like, some of the, the— if you're an EDA member or you're a council member or you're a commissioner, please understand from that person's perspective and seat that they do have certain gifts. Understand what that is and give them grace as they try to maneuver through those other things, because I was sitting in that role at one point in time.

Yeah, me too. Me too. And I think, yeah, I honestly almost hope this episode is like a, just like some gentle and truly like loving reminders of two people that did this position, different communities, different size communities. And we respectively left our positions for different reasons, right? And it actually isn't for me in any way, and yours either, to demonize or criticize as the boards that we each reported to. But I think there's some trends and some things that we all should be kind of looking at and challenging ourselves to think differently about. And what's wild is that, lo and behold, it's all human capital things. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It's how, you know, it's how we, the, the whole, the whole trust thing is, We don't talk about that enough in terms of, like, what happens when trust starts to get questionable and people start to become skeptical of one another instead of trusting and honest and open with one another, the vulnerability that's required to do this kind of work really well. You know, if I walk into a room and I'm automatically wired to believe that you're screwing— trying to screw me over.

Yes.

Trying to take something from me, or you have an agenda. Right? Everything you say, I have that, I bring that filter to it. Right? That's really damaging for communities, especially for small communities. And again, like people say, well, that's just the way small towns are. And I'm just going to continue to say, but do they have to be? Like, why are we accepting that?

Yeah. Are they though?

I mean, yeah. And are they though? Right?

Yep. I think it was always interesting because You know, through when I, in my business consulting year timeframe, I spent multi-county, like 3, 4 counties I was serving.

Thank you for your service because you were down here.

Yes. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. That was one of the best times of my life from a professional standpoint. But what I often found out and just great perspective because I wasn't serving in an economic development role and I wasn't a decision maker or anything like that, but I I sat in meetings all the time where that discussion was happening. And then for a certain small part of my time, I was up in Fargo too. So I was tied to Fargo and I was in a much larger community.

Yeah.

People are people and it does not matter what community you go to.

Amen, dude. I agree. I totally agree.

Yeah. So every community has challenging people. Every people have rock stars. They have great people. People are people. So you could go from one community to the next community to the next community, and they're going to deal with those types of people, whether they're rock stars or, you know, people who are always saying no or poo-pooing ideas or things like that, right? Differently because of who's elected or how they've traditionally used it, or if they, if they think differently or whatever. But your, your community base is going to be basically same whether you're going to go to Oaks or Hankinson. What's different in Hankinson is there's a banker who for the last 20, 30 years that has been driving, you know, the business development side of things there and the community development. So they make sure that an outside entity comes in every 5 years and leads a strategic plan and drives their CDC to make decisions on where they invest time and money. And they check those boxes, right? And, and That's just how they've operated over the years. And I think they'll continue to like they have their succession plan in place.

Yeah.

So that's going to keep on. It might look differently, but it's going to continue on.

Yeah, I think that's— I think it's actually a good place to kind of wrap our conversation. Honestly, you kind of brought the whole thing full circle. And again, I promise I don't just bring people on the show that validate everything I say all the time, but you're really doing doing a bang-up job of that, Justin. But I think that the truth is people are people. And so why wouldn't we, as we think about what to do next, what to, you know, again, if you've got a hole in this position in your community, or you're trying to start something, or whatever your challenge is, I honestly, I swear, I think we overcomplicate a lot of, a lot of community development things because we just don't ask, well, what do people need and what do people want? They're humans. You can go back, there's basics of psychology. There's, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a great place to start. Like, it's like just a legitimate truth about what humans need.

Yep.

And so why, why are we, why are we not asking that question more? Instead of saying, what is the institution? What is the institutions that are in place? What do they need? Because it's not the same, right? It might have been people that started those things, whether, again, it's a nonprofit board or a business. I get that. But I think sometimes we actually defer to the institution or the government or the business or whatever in a way that separates us from people. And the people have the answers.

Yes.

You know, like people, we get ourselves into problems and we see our way out of them. So I just think it's such a great reminder that people are people and the problems are kind of the same from place to place in a lot of respects. So why don't we start asking maybe just better questions?

Yeah, I would agree. And that, that does start with your local EDA or CDC, whoever is driving that, because, and if you're an EDA board member, you're a council member, every single year you should question Why do we do this? You know, what if we could do it differently, you know, would we? It's a very healthy thing to do. And that doesn't mean what was done in the past is wrong.

No, not at all.

But it's understanding how to get better into the future. And could you deliver it in a different way that we maybe have not thought of? Like, do we bring skill sets together that marry? And we don't have a full-time person, but it's 5 part-time people that can cover a space or however you want to look at that. I mean, it's, there's a bunch of different ways you can solve economic development, community development. And they're all probably right.

Yeah, right. They're at least worthy of exploration.

Sure, yep.

I think the worst thing communities can do is just not do anything.

Correct, yeah. Right?

Like, well, we don't have it figured out or we're not sure. Word, you know, the— it's like, then you just become— protect what's here, you know? And you get this— it's like a clenched energy around it. And that's not— it doesn't allow for creativity. Money likes flow too. I mean, let's be real, right? Like, money follows that kind of fluidity. So it's just purely from a what comes next standpoint, you've got to not be so afraid. To mess up, screw up, do the wrong thing. And sometimes just that's again where if trust is higher, you're, you're more willing to accept those risks. You know, like you just trust, you trust yourselves, you trust each other, you trust the community, you trust the players that will work through it, you know? Yeah, we just need, we need more of it.

Yeah. And, you know, economic development, business development, that type of stuff. The scary side is to— and I don't know if you sat in any of these roles, but sometimes you're putting together a deal that needs local financing.

Mm-hmm.

And now you have to give an opinion of character.

Yep.

And, and it may be somebody that's in your community that you don't, you don't know or don't know real well. Maybe it is, maybe it is somebody who is from an outside, and all you know is the conversations and emails that you've exchanged, right? And now you have to give an opinion on the business and industry to some of these elected officials, and you're putting yourself out on the line like, hey, this is a good deal, this is something that you should be investing in. That's tax dollars that they have to make a decision on.

Yep.

It's, it's challenging.

That's really challenging. Yeah, it's those— I'm not, I'm not sad to be, to be out of that position at that part of it.

Yep.

Because that would be absolutely a function of my personality that doesn't always serve me well. I get hurt 'cause I tend to err on the side of being overly trusting, right? So I see the good in people and—

You have to.

Yeah, and that sometimes means that people let me down. I get disappointed. I have absolutely, and I would never say I've backed the wrong person. I wouldn't frame it that way, but there's, I think that, there's that perspective or, you know, opinion of me maybe that I don't always back the right things or the right— and I'm just like, that's because I just want to see stuff happen.

Sure.

I would rather, I would rather, you know, put my energy beside, behind somebody that's trying something.

Yep.

Kind of the same, like this conversation of like if a Main Street business closes, I don't run around bemoaning it criticizing the person that— I don't call it even a failure. It just all did— like, there's so much that goes on behind the scenes of a business owner in a business.

Yeah.

That sometimes you just want to be like, well, we had it for more— I mean, we had it for a handful of months. That's better than nothing.

Yep.

You know, I, I get that that's— it's different when there's a bunch of, um, you know, either taxpayer dollars that went into it.

Sure.

Those, those are the risks of the position, you know, or the, the agency. But overall, I'm just like, how do we incentivize action?

Yeah, I, I— it's a great topic because if I wouldn't have gone, especially in economic development, but even with, um, business consulting, I think I was still heading that direction. It would be really interesting to see how I would have thought if I wouldn't have gone down these paths, but You know, that business that closes in your Main Street, I think the biggest question is maybe it's been there for 5 years, maybe it's been there 10 years, I don't know. But 95% of businesses in the United States fail by year 10.

Right.

So the reality is, is they make it to 10 years, they did better than 95%.

Right.

That is a good, good number. I think it's like 50 fail by year 4.

Yeah, right. It's a huge— the business business failure rates, which just means they could— they didn't make it. Now, we don't know why.

Right.

Right. We don't know unless, unless, of course, they're just opening that up to the public. But most people don't do that because there's, you know, there's usually a variety of reasons.

But yeah, but I think from, from that aspect is understanding the numbers like, yeah, they're a statistic.

Agreed.

And they, you know, if it's year 4, they close, they're right in the— they're average, right? They made it to an average point in time that most businesses do., you know, get to when they fail. The other side is we talked about this earlier. What does the city have to do with that? You know, so many times when, when there's a storefront there, they're like, well, what's the city going to do? Well, what does the city do? The city can't own. They can own real estate, but they shouldn't.

Yeah, probably not.

No. And they can't— they can't start a business. That's for sure. They can't do that. So, I mean, when a business closes, it's not— it's not the city's fault. And yeah, and don't blame a business that's been open for 5 years. And don't think that it's the bad— it's a bad community and that it will never work because businesses will close. They'll open and close. Every single business that starts has an end date.

Yeah, absolutely. It just depends on when. And I think the other thing too, as I was listening to you and thinking about the idea of when ideas come back around to a community. So if there was a business that was on your main street and it closed and no matter how much time it was, and a couple years go by and somebody comes back around and says, hey, I want to open this business, and your answer is, we already tried that and it failed. I wanted to just remind people that like any, any variable that changes means you could get a different outcome.

Yep.

Right. So different proprietor, time, time under tension, markets are probably different. Like, it's just too easy of an answer to say, well, we've tried that and it didn't work.

Yep.

—And I get sometimes we just want to say, honestly, sometimes we want to say no, and so we say that because it's easier than the mental work. But please do the mental work, especially if there's a person standing there wanting to start something.

You owe it to them.

You owe it to them. You do. And your community, we need people. Again, there's a flow that gets really shut off when too many people hear no too many times. And that's not even just business ownership. Any idea, if you have an idea for a community event and you go to the one board in charge and they say no. Yes. And you say, but why? And they say, because we just know we don't, you know, and then you just go, well, where, why would anybody else? I think about just what message that sends. And yeah, it's so, it's so hard.

Like, I think about retail in the community that I live and, and there are a lot of people that try it. And I've seen folks come after other businesses have closed and they're just like, retail is not good in a smaller community. But what I do see is some people succeed and even succeed after other people have failed. And it's not necessarily because some of it is markets, but more of it, I think, is some of these owners understand the market better. Right. And they're bringing in the products that people want to see, specifically in women's clothing. Men's clothing won't work where we're at. Men just don't buy enough stuff. Yeah, but women are actually— women are buying for men, but they don't go.

Yeah, women, women are buying for men 100%. Yeah, I was actually going to say, unless you open a store that you cater that whole experience to women. Yes. Then that could possibly work. It could possibly work.

But I've seen, I've seen that over and over again. And you can't blanket statement saying that we're too small for retail. Yeah. It doesn't work. Yeah. It depends on the individual. It depends on what, what type of things they're bringing into that store and on whether or not it's going to be successful. And there is risk in that, right? But yeah, I think we all want to see, especially in states that allow sales tax, we want to see sales tax driven back to the local economy. We want to see a lit storefront. We want to see a place where we can, you know, just go down the road or go 5-minute drive to go buy things that we need versus having to drive. Having to leave. Leave town and go buy stuff that we need. So I, yes, I agree. Like you can't have boards, decision makers sitting there. We tried that and we're not going to go back to that again. Right.

Yeah, it's just too limiting of a whole set of beliefs, frankly. Yeah. Ah, Justin, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming over today. I'm gonna buy you lunch here now. Oh, cool. Because your stomach has to be growling, because mine is. I'm super hungry. I just think we'll— and again, like, we'll have to— we'll see where this goes, where this kind of different approach to economic development, where it goes, what we learn. Maybe one day that's what the next episode will be, where we just sit down and talk about what do we learn? Like, what worked with this? What didn't work with this? Because I just think this is gonna be a continually evolving industry. Yeah, you know, as, as retirements especially happen of kind of the, the folks that have been in it, the long haulers that have been in it, um, they deserve to retire, right? And so, you know, love them and they're leaving and there's this hole, yes, of kind of experience because the people that were in it for 30 years, like, they didn't— there was nobody— there wasn't necessarily a how do we do succession planning for this Now it sounds like Hankinson did. I mean, of course they did. Of course they figured it out. They're Hankinson. Yeah, they figure their stuff out. That's what they do.

They figure it out. It is. But like hiring an employee to sit out of City Hall might work really well for that community and it might not.

Yep, exactly.

You know, so I think there's got to be different ways to deliver. And again, said it earlier in the show, we live in the greatest country in the world. And, and if there's ways that you can entrepreneurially solve community development, economic development, why not explore that? Yeah, that's kind of what we're doing is like, okay, let's totally look at this differently. Yeah, look at this entrepreneurially.

Yep. And I think that's just it. So if, if what you're doing is working, maybe you're like, why'd I listen to that episode? Just a total waste of time. But I think there's a lot of communities where they're questioning what to do, you know, or they have an opening that's been sitting there for a while and that question of just what do we do? So hopefully this offered at least a few different ways that you could potentially look at it and just be willing to look. Yeah. And be willing to try something different. Yeah. Knowing that it's going to be okay if it doesn't work. Now you've just, you've at least tried something, you know? Yeah. It doesn't, that's how, that's how, that's how we continue to make sure that things evolve.

Yeah, get outside the box. Yeah. I mean, what's the downside on doing something like that? It's— I can tell you that you're not going to miss that large manufacturer egg processing plant because you tried something different, right?

Exactly right. Yeah. Yeah.

They're going to show up if they want to be there.

100%. 100%. So thanks for your time, Justin. Super good to see you.

Yeah, thank you. This was fun. Yeah.

Thanks for the invite. We'll bring you back. It'll be good. Cool. Okay. See you soon. Yep. We hope you loved this episode of the Growing Small Towns show. We encourage you to leave us messages at 701-203-3337 and be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at growingsmalltowns.org. In the meantime, keep doing what you can with what you have. Right where you are. Your community needs you.

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