S5:26 - Generational Perspectives in Small Towns with Jackie Knutson and Lisa Schulz

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guests on today's episode are a mother-daughter duo, Jackie Knutson and Lisa Schultz, both natives to Oaks, and they represent two generations of, of Oaks folks, as we like to call them. And we decided to have these two ladies on because, well, you'll hear it when I welcome them to the show, but When I asked our chamber director, you know, who would be a great voice of kind of the greatest generation to feature on the show, and without like a second's hesitation, she said Jackie Knutson. And I said, of course it should be Jackie. And it's really fun because Lisa is just as much of a community champion, community advocate, and all like all-around just fantastic human. And she's a returner. So Jackie, you'll hear, has lived in Oaks most of her life. She was gone for 2 quick years. Jackie moved away and came back, or Lisa moved away and came back, and hearing her story, why she returned, what brought her back, and also just hearing from their perspectives what makes them love this town now even through all of its changes. I really was excited to feature a young— we've featured a young perspective, right? We've had teenagers, we've had just freshly graduate, you know, graduated voices on this show. And I thought, what a cool opportunity to ask people that have lived here longer than I have and have seen more than I have and just ask them what they love, what they wish were different. Um, they offer great perspective, and I think you're going to get done with this episode and wish that you had them. You can't have them, they belong to us, but I do encourage you to go and find the Jackie and Lisa in your towns because I know they're out there. And how lucky are we? So please enjoy this conversation with Jackie Paula Jensen and Lisa Schultz. Well, welcome to the show, ladies.

Thanks.

Thank you, Becky.

I'm so happy to have you two here. You're sitting in front of me in our podcast studio right here in Oaks, North Dakota.

Right here.

Right here. You two are so darn cute.

I love it.

You're both like, we don't know what we're getting ourselves into. It's my favorite. Okay. So let me tell you why you're here. I kind of told Lisa this already, but we have had, well, I don't know if you guys listen to our show much, but my son, we had Carter on, and that was a very popular episode. I don't know if people just enjoyed listening to me physically parent, like actually parent him in real time. But you know, he's only 14, so just that perspective of a young, young kid, right? And then recently we had JC Praska on, who's a college student, And, you know, everybody wants to know, like, how do we get our young kids to come back? So it makes sense that we've done that. Uh, in talking with Kasia, our chamber director, I said, I really want to get the perspective of somebody who's lived here a long time, like the older generation of this community, and talk to them about what they're seeing, what they— what you like, what you don't like, what changes bother you, what you're excited about. Because— and then so when I said that, I'm like, Who should we ask? And like, without a second's hesitation, Jackie— Kasia's like, Jackie Canuso! You gotta ask her.

And I was like, well, I said, of course we do.

And so then I thought it'd be really fun to have Lisa because I will— so that's why, that's why you're here. And also, I just want to share with you, Lisa, I don't know if you never ever talked about, like, we— if we talked about this. Jackie, do you remember you reached out to me shortly after I had returned and Lisa was thinking or contemplating coming back. Do you remember talking to me? So the question you asked me, which is just really fun. So Lisa, I want to get your, your take on this. You asked me how much of an adjustment it was for me being kind of a big city girl. Like we talked about Target. You asked me like, she said, Lisa's really, she's really kind of struggling. And she's not sure, you know, she's not sure she's going to love being this far from a Target. So So does that—

that makes me laugh when I think about it now. A Target store, that's my—

she loved Target.

Well, I loved— I mean, we love, we love Target. But so can you just tell a little bit, maybe tell Lisa, like, how long have you been back now? Uh, like, what, what kind of brought you back? And then maybe how fast did you realize that you were going to live without Target? Like, how quick— like, how fast did you move through that?

Right. That's always a on a run.

It's a real thing. Right.

We've been back, well, 8 years now. And it's been— it was transition, but we've made it through. And it was a decision based on a couple of things. Kenny, we had a sister in Colorado. And at the same time, that's when Mom got sick. This sister in Colorado died. So we were like, Okay, we don't have anybody out here in Colorado. If we get sick, we don't have children. It kind of puts into perspective who's going to take care of us. That sounds silly, but you have to be closer to— our friends are wonderful out there and we have really good friends out there, but it's like, we got to get back. And it's also too, do we need to be back for our family too here? Mother and dad getting older.

Right.

I don't want it all to be on my sister's shoulder. To take care of them or help with their needs. And then Kenny had Sister Gloria that was still living here.

Right.

And then too, it's like, okay, do we need to be back there to be with them? Just like, and now when I think about all that's happened since we've moved back, we've lost both Gloria and Dennis.

Yeah.

And Kenny was able to be here, be with them.

He did.

And not even that, just be, have a really close relationship again with them.

Yeah.

And that doesn't happen at a distance.

It doesn't, does it? And I thank you for sharing all of that. I think it's so interesting because like in community development talk, right? Like we think, how do we get people to move back? Well, a lot of times it really is just about who they're coming back for and who they're coming back to be with and near. And you're an example of a couple that doesn't have children. And that doesn't mean anything to me other than the fact that it's just, The choice then to come back to a small town, it's not common, but it makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, like even everything you just shared, you know, when we moved back here and I've been back 16 years.

Wow. Wow.

I mean, isn't that wild? I've been back a long time. It's, it's crazy. But you know, like, and, and I had 5 of my 6, so I had like bonus grandparents, right?

Yeah.

I had 5 of the 6 of them alive and they're all gone now. Oh, how nice. I got to be here for all of that. And it wouldn't have been the same. No, it wouldn't. It's not, it's not the same from a distance. And again, I'm not— we're not— I don't ever demonize city living. Like, people do, do what you want to do. But I think your story is a fun one. And again, it was just really funny because I remember Jackie like being like, so how are you handling it? I'm like, well, it's a, it's a struggle. The non-target still is rough. Yeah, I know, I know.

Because then when you go out of town, it's like, I have all these errands I gotta do.

I know. And then your trips out of town are like a slog.

But as we are getting a little bit more growing in our small town.

Some of our things are going to go off my checklist. We have people going to school for nails.

I know.

Yeah, I don't have to get that done when I go out of town.

I know, right? I know these things are exciting, and I know you guys are super excited about our winery that'll be coming up. And, you know, it's so exciting. But, um, okay, so Jackie— and I'll kind of come back to you a bit too, Lisa, just because you and Kenny having been back now 8 years— again, I love that you don't have children in the sense that you hit this demographic that we don't talk about often in small towns in the sense that like, how do they get engaged? Where do they find community and stuff? Right?

Yeah.

And I wanna like ask you about that because you guys are also the just number one people to raise your hands and say, yeah, we'll help with that. Yeah, we'll do that. Like I literally, I didn't text you the day that I, I drove by Hockenberry Park and I saw you. With a garbage bag and you're just weeding a random sign. And I'm like, that's just, that's Lisa.

That's those weeds. And that sign drives me insane. Well, weeds, period, drive me insane. I know they do.

And I love that about you. It's not like my favorite thing about you, but probably top 5.

Well, it's also, it's our welcome into Oak sign.

Yeah.

One of them.

Yes.

Let's make it look good. And if If it doesn't, the parks or whoever doesn't post it, right?

Yep.

Then just do it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I love that about you, honestly. I love that about you. And that's something, again, I will make sure that everybody hears this because, like, people listen to this all over. It's pretty amazing. But it's like, maybe you're the someone. Like, if you have hands, you can pick a weed. A lot of times we spend time going, well, like, why aren't the city guys doing their job? And why aren't the park people? You know, it's like, well, You have hands and that's— you just do it and you don't ask for credit. You don't even really— you probably are kind of even a little bit embarrassed that I'm like calling this out, but it's just, it's just so, it's just so cool because you take care of it because it's yours. Like the community. That is 100%. I love that about you.

I want our town to look good. It— we are, we are all Oaks and we take care of it. Look, take pride in it. Yeah. And if pulling a weed or 10 weeds helps.

Yep.

That's what you do.

Exactly. I know, I love it. Okay, so Jackie, how long have you been in this community?

Well, to tell you the truth, I was born here in 1944 in the old hospital. Lived here, graduated from high school, and then moved to Minneapolis.

Oh, you did? You know what? So this will be really fun. I'll actually learn some of your story because I didn't know that.

Well, in those days, you know, there was there wasn't the— my folks, my parents had 10 kids. I was the oldest. So there wasn't the financial aid for college. So I thought, well, I'll just go to Minneapolis for a while with my friends, get a job, then eventually go to college. Well, they all got married or moved away. So then I thought, well, I'll go back home and decide what I'm going to do. So then I came back to Oaks, about— it wasn't even quite 2 years. And in the meantime, got a job at the restaurant, just waitressing to make some money and living with my aunt and uncle here in town. And Chuck Knudsen walked in for lunch and the rest is history. So then I stayed and then we got married and worked at Red Owl. And then Lisa was born in '66, '65. Darcy was born in '68. And yeah, so I've been here most of my life except for that year and a half to 2 years. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so I love this because that just means you've seen a lot of versions of this community. Um, when You hear people say things like, "Oh, well, those were the good old days," as if that's something that's time past. What do you think about that?

I usually say, "Those days are great, but they're gone. We have to move on." My husband, I have to keep reminding him, "It's progress. Even if you don't like it, things change." Like Dickie Roll, for instance, we're going to have to go on streaming.

Well, it's gonna be difficult. Yes, Dickey Rural, for everybody listening, is our, like, internet and kind of our primary telephone. Yeah, all of that cooperative. And those changes are hard.

They're hard, especially for older people. So it's gonna be a change. And he just today said something. Why? I said, chalk it up to progress. It has to be. Things change. You just have to adjust. So that part I try to say to people. Yeah, you know, change can be hard. It's hard for all of us, but it is inevitable. Yeah, it's always going to be change.

You are one of the most— and this is why I'm so happy to have you sitting here— is that I— well, and actually, I'll just tell you, I— there's a lot of reviews of our podcast, like, out on the internet. And I read one that someone was like, oh, so we're shaming old people. And I'm like, oh my God, I want— I was like, I wonder what episode that was. Because if I ever said something that sounds like that, that's not how I feel.

No.

No.

But I do know that there's a lot of times this tendency to want to group an entire generation of people together. Whether we're talking about the young bucks coming up and how they're lazy and entitled and don't wanna work, or it's like the old folks are stodgy and stuck in their ways.

Yeah.

And they— So I really try not to do that. Mm-hmm. But I think it's always super fun to highlight somebody that completely bucks that entire— and just like you, you completely show up in a way that doesn't at all represent that. Stereotype.

Well, I try. I try.

You do a great job of it.

It's hard, but it'll be hard for us to learn that. But we'll do it. We'll do it.

So let's just talk about even the last— because I just feel this energy of renewal and hope and encouragement in our community. I mean, aside from the school bond referendum failing, I mean, that was a blow. That was hard. Um, and it, in it again, anything like that that happens that's really public where it was fairly split, but we, it was just heartbreaking. Right. And it, people say some things that you can't walk back and all of those things. Right. Overall though, you look up and down Main Street, like our streets are beautiful. There's a lot of young families coming back and starting businesses. Right.

That's what you just said is renewal.

Yes.

And that's a good way to describe it with all these young people coming back. And I, when we have family come, I always say, drive down Main Street, look at our Main Street, it's beautiful. And they do. And yeah, we say, yes, it looks very nice.

Yeah. So what are the things that in the last, let's say, even 5, 10 years maybe, are, what are the things that have happened in Oaks that were just like tickled you?

Uh, well, this building. Oh, this building right here is one thing that I think is great. And I tell people, you have to go see it if you haven't had a So that's a good thing.

I didn't even pay you to say that.

No, but it is.

It's, it's, uh, I could say the movie theater, the renewal of that.

Isn't that fantastic?

Huge.

It is. And again, I'm— what I want to say about that too is that, um, I encourage everybody listening to this to follow our theater's Facebook page or TikTok or Instagram, like wherever you do your socials, um, because that's not just that they reopened a theater. There is just an entire vibe with the group of people that work there and how they're showing up in the community.

Those little videos, aren't they cool?

So fun.

So nice. And yeah, it's great. So, oh, there's just a lot of things. Irrigation Days has always been fun, but I don't know, it's just each year gets a little better, I think, because with the cowboy bingo and the— yeah, it gets a little better every year.

And that is such a sweet and awesome thing to hear, you know, because there's always—

yeah, and you need to, but you need to take part in it, you know. So many people don't.

I mean, but you need to get out there and like go to the things that your community hosts.

Yeah, you know, there's a lot to do. There's a lot to do in Oaks if you get out of the house and do it.

Amen, Jackie.

Uh, you can't just, uh, sit there and die when you get old and think people should come to you all the time for it. Because you got to get out with people. Like, okay, my day today, I'll start with my day today.

Tell us about your day.

I love it.

So you don't have to just sit home twiddling your thumbs. You go, well, I didn't get to the gym this morning because I was lazy and slept in.

I usually see your face at the gym, and I love that.

But I went to quilting at church for 2 hours. Came home, we had a little lunch, went to a birthday party for my sister out at Jeannie's, and it was really nice. Came to the podcast today, and I'm going to bingo tonight.

There you go.

So that's a pretty full day.

That's a full day.

Housework and a couple things. You can— there's so much to do if you just want to do it. I do Meals on Wheels, I do a volunteer church. You know, there's stuff to do. But— and be around people. That's my thing. You got to be around people.

Right?

You can't just sit home in front of this TV and vegetate.

Well, yeah, no, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, Lisa.

I'm just again trying to think of like, what is— without— in the last 5, 10 years.

Yeah, we've only been here, but it's like, we've been here for a good chunk of that.

But I'm trying to think, what is— what I mean, you could say the schools thing, that's not changing, but it's coming to the forefront. Something is going to change.

Yeah, something's gonna— something's gonna push with it.

That better and for our future, for all these people that are moving back for their kids and all that stuff. Things like that and just seeing the energy of that, that's kind of the stuff that I like to see that is happening and changing.

Well, I think you're sharing a couple of things that I just want to make sure we really call out. That's the other reason too that when Kasia and I, what I love so much is when we host things, whether we are doing it or the chamber's doing it or any group is doing it, we can almost count on the fact that you are going to show up.

I just come. Yeah.

You like always come to stuff. And that seems, it seems like, I don't know, there's really something to be said about showing up, Jackie and Lisa too. You both do. And it means a lot to the people that host things. You know, we were just talking about it. So we've got bingo. Uh, so the youth are hosting bingo tonight. They're raising money.

Right.

For teen mental health. Great thing. Hosting it in this building. And that the class came today, we're setting up tables, and they're like— I said, do you guys have any idea how many people you're gonna get? And they're like, we don't. So the best we can do is say, well, the most people we've ever had at any event we've hosted is this, right? And yeah, that's the best you can do, and you really don't know. And so it says a lot to the people that put the effort and time into putting things on when you guys show up to them. So because I appreciate it so much.

I feel like being involved in church and stuff—

Yeah, you can step forward. Yep, there you go. Perfect.

It's hard for the people that do it to not— to have people not show up. So I feel bad if you don't show up because somebody went to the trouble of planning this. You need to do it. And that's why I try to spread the word a little bit. Like today, I spread the word about bingo here tonight. We'll see. Yeah, I tried.

Well, and like, like you said, I think the most important thing— there's kind of two, two things like people wither when they don't get out of their houses, and towns wither when people don't show up to stuff, because you can't keep hosting things with 4 people showing up, right? Like, at some point you go, okay, well, the community must not really want this, and then you stop.

Yeah.

And you talk about withering, that is a proven fact that social part of your life is huge for your health.

It is.

It is.

You need that, need your mental stimulation, you need that stuff, and if you participate in all the things that we have to offer in this town, like, it's like, I can reference, like, I was thinking about this, okay, we were busy in a big city, but we were busy in a big city doing this. We'd go to a Major League Football or baseball game. Well, here we go to the Legion baseball or high school baseball. We'd go to a football game, Major League. Here you go to high school. Yeah, you know, you still are doing those things, it's just in a different way.

Well, and it's community building differently. I'm not saying that you don't— you can't build community in a big city, because of course that's true, right? But legitimately, I, I'm to the point— I don't know if you ever feel this way— where I'm like, I'm not leaving the house tonight. Like, because, you know, if you're gonna just step outside, you know you're gonna run into people. And so sometimes I just need a decompression from that, right? But community gets built everywhere we go in a smaller community just because you run into people, you know.

I honestly feel living in a smaller town, I do more on the weeknights than I did in, in a big city. Yeah, that's a fun perspective because, well, granted, like, the friends we had, they didn't have— they had little kids, so we weren't going to their sporting events yet. But yeah, here you go to all that stuff. You're going to a basketball, you know. So it's like, we're— every night of the week you could be doing something. Oh yeah, every night.

If you want it to be, right?

You can be involved totally. Sometimes I'll have a day once in a while when I go, oh, I don't have anything going on today. It's kind of nice.

Yeah, I'm just gonna chill, have a me day, you know, right?

My book. Yeah, but most of the time I have something going on, if something, at least one or two things every day.

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about what we— what you wish we had. Was there— were— are there things And again, it's so funny because I'll just say, when you ask a kid this question, they'll be like, Starbucks. I'm like, get out of here. That's not what we need. So I know you won't say things like that. Barring the things that obviously only a big city could support, are there things in our community that you wish were here that aren't yet? And I say yet because just saying it out loud, there might be something that gets sparked. Who the heck knows?

It's just about getting whatever we need here. Our needs and wants get mixed up sometimes. But amen, we can usually get, you know, and get clothes, food, hardware, drugs, hospital care. I wish we had more— another doctor, which I hear maybe we're getting one eventually, an MD. Yeah, an MD. And PAs are wonderful. Yeah. And all that. But it'd be nice to have another MD. Yep.

Fair.

That would help at the hospital, take some call. Because they do telemedicine and that's great. But yeah, nice.

Yeah, that, that for me, um, I mean, yeah, no, go ahead, you're good.

It sounds silly, but again, stores, that is obviously one of the areas that is missed when you move from a big city.

Yes, for sure.

Like, oh, I want to decorate this or something. Well, that's getting trickier in the little town. That's kind of, and that's silly, but it is also something that I wish we had. You know, but we do have some surrounding towns that have great things. I can run to Lemoore and they have a really good hardware store that's got a great decoration area and I can get my stuff there. So we do have the areas around us that we can take advantage of and support that way too.

Well, it's really something because I actually, so just on Monday, this Monday, I had this guy, a guy on the show called, his name is Ben Winchester. He's a rural sociologist. He's just a fascinating guy. Like everything he says, everything he says is backed up by data. And I'm like, I only back my stuff up with feelings. So it's great. He's just great. But we had this, I'm going to be bringing him back for like another episode talking about regionalism because they've done all this research to show just how far we'll travel. Like how far will you travel to eat outside of your community? How far will you travel to recreate? And how far will you travel for work? It's amazing. Like it's amazing. So if you start looking at that swing, there's almost nothing we can't get. Because even Fargo is only 110 miles away. 100% true.

Because like, I think about the cities, or when I lived in Colorado, okay, we drive, it took me a half hour to get into the town of Colorado Springs. I can go to another town here in that, and I don't have traffic. It's just a wide open beautiful road.

Yep.

Yep.

Why is it that if it's in a town to town to town in the big city, it doesn't seem like you're going that far. You're going farther, probably.

Right.

But we will do that. But we won't go to— one night, Kenny and I had to go to Fargo. We went after work. I got work for— it was like, well, that's a trip. Yep. But you can do it.

Yeah.

Especially in the summertime when it doesn't get dark till 10.

And the roads are—

which is the benefit of living here in North Dakota, that it doesn't get dark very early.

For sure. The only— so the one thing though is we have weather. Like, we have long winters, right? So is there anything when you think about that, because we're now, now we're in the cloak of darkness, you know, like the nights are already getting really long to me. I'm just like, I get off of work and I'm like, crap, it's already dark. Yeah, literally, I look at my watch, I'm like, oh, it's 7:10. Great, I have to somehow make it a couple more hours here. Um, what about the winter? Like, that's something we talk a lot about, you know, I think isolation, social isolation, all of that is a big challenge for us in North Dakota. What thoughts or ideas do you have about what we could or should be thinking about to combat that? Combat that.

Well, as much as you guys try to have things always going involved, it does get tricky because there is things to do in this town. Some things aren't always open to do them. That makes sense.

Like, yeah, like, can you give me a first?

Okay, well, it would be fun, like bowling. That's not always open.

Yeah, yeah.

And that, you know, stuff like that is fun to do. Um, uh, yeah, stuff like that.

Yeah, I get it, I get it. Yeah, well, the, the biggest challenge, right, is like, and when I was doing like the economic development officially, it was that challenge of you know, when do we step over and, and say to like a private business owner like, hey, you know, like we can't tell people how to run their businesses, right? So we just have to kind of deal with it. But I think sometimes even just letting them know, you know, because it's, it's hard to open your doors and have nobody come in. And then, you know, so, and I do know the marketing, a lot of people don't just own the business, they also have other jobs.

Yeah, so that is huge. I totally recognize that, that is something that has to be worked with. And thankfully we have the bowling alley, and then we have other things that you can do it, you know. Um, but just stuff like that would be to get the— or an organized, like, coming into winter, having like a— what's the— you know, like in the— what some towns have, like an ice fishing tournament. We have that. Like, the Lions do things, the Snowbusters do things. You, it, so it's things like that would be fun to have something like that. Like, like a winter celebration, we'll say, like our irrigation days, but in the wintertime. Yeah.

Well, it'll be interesting with Union Square.

Mm-hmm.

Just to see what might be able to be developed. And the thing that's cool about it too is like, it doesn't, any group could decide to host something.

Yeah.

So I guess we'll see, you know, what might happen. But we even talked about too, like, what if we did a, a winter concert series? You know what I mean? Like, could you see the vision of like the fire pits going somewhere? Yep, for sure, for sure. Or I mean, even that, that Hallmark movie, we could literally host— did you guys come to the Two Tap Trio? Were you here for that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a really— I just— the vibe of that. I swear to you, that day I like wept in the back of my building. I'm like, this is why we did this. This This is the kind of thing, you know, just to have something that felt really— it felt very big city, right? But it was right here, right? So, so, so cool. So yeah, that's something I think we need to spend some time thinking about.

Tuesday nights in Union Square this summer were great. They were great. Uh, we were— I was at every one, I think.

Of course you were.

But the favorite, of course, was Tim.

Tim, isn't he just so cool?

I came to his thing here.

Yes.

And then he was there. And now I said to Kasia that day, you get him next summer.

Yeah, I swear, like, he's the kind of guy— well, I mean, he's just— he hits the perfect note for, like, not even just ha ha ba dum bum, like music notes, right? But just the, the light razzing of every human in the park. Like, I just, you know, where you're just like, get out of here. But he's so great. He's perfect for this community. So yeah. And I told her, I'm like, I don't think you would ever tire of him.

No, I think so.

Because he doesn't, it's not like it's a set list of jokes.

No, he just, he just pulls, yeah.

Pulling it out of his head. Yep. Yep. Or somewhere else. Jackie, perhaps. I know.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I, I, we thought, we think a lot about that and just how do we use the things that we have? Yeah. And repurpose them or, or do them differently. 100%. So, okay. So let's talk a little bit more about change, because I just think, again, you have decades of— you have decades of history in this community. It's really, really cool.

Yeah.

So is there anything that— I kind of asked this already, but is there anything that we once had that you just go, man, that I miss? Yeah.

Yeah. Something comes to my mind. When stores were open on Friday night or Saturday night till 9 o'clock, everybody come to town. Kids would tear up and down Main Street. Mom and dads, moms would shop for groceries. That was fun. That was fun. But now I don't think anybody would probably come, but it was, that was a good time.

I would—

good time. You could let your kids take off and just run and have fun. And well, I happened to work at the Red Owl store and we were open till 9 o'clock. And so It was just a fun time. That would be, that was fun. That was a good time.

You know, I have often, I've heard a lot about that. And even one of the memories on the back wall is he's talking about, I think it was Saturday nights, he said, and he would like play like with pea shooters. That's what he talked about, like on the sidewalk in front of this building, right? So a lot of people have that memory.

And some people would bring their cars uptown in the day and park them on Main so they'd get a good spot.

Isn't that funny?

And watch people or whatever they did.

I mean, that's just, that's just funny. And so, so the question is like, is there pieces of that that would apply still today that we would do it right? Because I always just hate the idea that times have just changed so much that like, that wouldn't fly now.

No, I don't think it would.

I don't, I don't know if it would either, but I sometimes think like, what if we decided to make it a thing? You'd have to get everybody on board.

That was their social media.

Social, correct. It was social media because in those days my mom, for instance, bought groceries once a week.

Yeah, right. It was like her trip to town. Yeah, right.

That was usually Saturday night. They'd bring the cream and the eggs in, sell them, she'd get the checks and buy a few groceries, the basics, because everything was homemade. Yeah, you know, canned. But yeah, and it was just a social— dad might go in the bar and have a beer and The rest, we'd just tear around with our friends. And, you know, it was, that's the way it was. It was a great time.

The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns podcast studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music This music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337. And share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you. Today's small town shout out is Lamoure, North Dakota. Just a stone's throw from my little community. And I'm actually— we're shouting them out today because I actually just recently, like as in the last couple of days, visited their combination hardware store and grocery store. I am ashamed to say that I had never been there until just recently, and I had heard people, person after person, comment on what a great setup this was. The store. Um, in fact, on this episode, Lisa talks about being able to go over to Lamour and go to the hardware store. Uh, so I just felt like Lamour deserves a shout out. Um, the audacity of the person who decided that this was needed and actually went for it has offered an incredible amenity to their community, and it's something we all should note. So way to go, Lamour, North Dakota!

I live in— well, the '40s, I don't remember. '50s, I was in high school, started in '57, would it have been? Those were good times to live. They were good times. Nobody had a lot. Yeah, but it was a good time. It wasn't scary. There wasn't the things you hear now on the news and all that stuff. And I'm sure maybe in the big city there was some, but it was a safer— to me, a safer time to live.

Yeah.

Yeah, just in general, it's trusted people. You trusted everybody, you know. Um, you know, it was just— was to me, it was just—

I can appreciate that. I can absolutely appreciate that those times felt special, you know, in a way that, uh, I don't know that we'll ever get that back. You know, there's just— there, there's just a— our phones have made, um You know, and I always of course try to look at the positives to, to this too, because we're, we're connected to each other in a way that we could never be before, right? And there's something good about that. But I do think, I do think there's some loss.

You know what I think about when it changed? When I, when I remember back when things started to change was the Vietnam War.

Really?

To me, that's when start— things started to change.

And what did you, uh, protesting, um, where there was just like this clear difference of almost opinion and how—

more drugs, protesting. That's kind of when I think things really kind of started to change.

That's really interesting. I just read a book, um, a Kristin Hannah book called The Women.

Oh, I've read that.

I just finished that book like a month ago.

Yeah.

And so it's all about the Vietnam War. It's a great book. Um, But yeah, you think about it and it's like, that's what makes America what it is, right? The ability to protest, the ability to have your own opinions and whatever. What I do think has changed a lot though is the way that we talk about our opinions. Do you have any thoughts about that? I mean, maybe you aren't— either one of you really can weigh in on this, but like maybe you're not on social media kind of enough to let it get to you. But there are times that I see, like, people I really know speaking on social media in a way that I'm like, what is the matter with you? You know? Like, yes.

So I'm on social media, but I, again, when I see that, I just have to back up. I've— a couple times I've commented to somebody and then I'm sorry I did it because then it opens up a whole new—

it does.

It just opens up a can, doesn't it?

Right off.

Yeah.

Although some of it really bugs me.

Yeah.

It is so sad that you see that people will say something on the social media that they wouldn't say it to their face.

Right.

And it's created such division. That's sad. It is. They can't— we can't understand each other's point of view.

Well, we don't even try anymore.

You know, it's either you're just wrong, you don't see my way, so that's— you're wrong. It's sad.

And that has been a huge change in this country.

Agreed. Yep. That's not just our little town. We're just feeling it like everybody else.

Yeah, huge change.

Yeah, isn't it gross?

Ago, people didn't even talk about politics. No, I mean, I know it's true. I mean, your family didn't. Nobody did.

Well, what's honestly amazing, if you've ever done even a light detox from like this or the TV, even all of a sudden you don't— like, you're less angsty because you're just kind of like, wow. I don't know, if you just look at what's right in front of you, it's not so bad. Now I get that's not the case for all people, but but, you know, like, focus on what's right in front of you and, and work on what you can do. Like, our sphere of influence is first and foremost my family, right? And then here.

Yeah.

And then Oaks. I care about Oaks, right? Like, so sometimes I think we just— we're so zoomed out that we forget to zoom in.

Don't believe that, right? So many people see it online and they think it's true, and it's not, especially with AI.

I know.

Now you don't have a clue if it's even true.

I know.

It's even that person.

I know. Well, and that's why I just think the more we and even having conversations like this, it's important to have, you know, different generations and different perspectives in a room talking about things, whatever even the topic is. Because yeah, I don't necessarily think like the best days are yet to come, but I think the days, the good old days, it's like they're as good as we're gonna make them.

Yeah, that's right.

So let's do everything we can to create what we want here, you know?

100%.

We have today. We have today. That's awesome.

Let's make it a good one. That's awesome. Well, we have, right?

Exactly. And that's all we're guaranteed is today.

Yeah, for sure. You know, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, one thing I wanted to ask you about was art, public art in our community. Um, we've got a few public murals, right? Yeah. Some kind of big art installations.

Yeah.

That, how do you, I, I want your perspective on this because art can be, art is subjective.

Mm-hmm.

First of all. But man, it's so interesting as I've watched other communities try to get murals put in, or even when we were doing the big sidewalls in the park, just how fired up people get about it. Just tell me, just generally, what do you think about it? And if you see something that's not your cup of tea, what do you do with it? Yeah, you specifically, Jackie, just because they think it's—

I give a fuck. When they were painting that, I thought it was fine. I just vote. I voted.

You used your voice.

I voted with my voice, and I don't remember if I voted for what it was or not, but I thought I was gonna ask if you actually picked it. Uh, I didn't comment about it, but yeah, there were people commenting about it and saying like, no, just let them do it. I didn't. I just voted, and right, which one I thought was the best.

Yeah. So yeah, I think, I think what happens is that people that then want to put a mural up somewhere, if they own a wall and they're like, we want to do something, they get afraid to even do it because they're afraid of that backlash. And I just think the more of us that are out there saying, well, it's okay if it's not your cup of tea, like, as long as it's not objectively vile or, you know, sexually explicit or some crazy thing like that, right? Then I don't know that any of us are out here looking to create any murals like that, right? So I think sometimes it's just recognizing that if the people especially that are paying for it or leading it love it. Yeah, it— that creates community, right?

And then you talk about that, it's like you— when especially this time of the year, look at all of that bit of color. Oh, it's great. It's such a refreshing to turn the corner and like there's bright colors in this time of the year that it's great.

We lose all of our green, we lose all of our life.

It is so great to see that.

Pop.

I agree.

I always have to glance at the park when I drive through town. I just always have to glance over there because it just looks so nice. Yeah, I do. I always look.

It's a, it's a really, it was a really fun project and it's really been fun to see all the different things so far even that have gone on in it.

It definitely was a labor of love for chamber members and you.

Yeah, it was. We talked about it when we, I laid it all out. We were, when we were looking at, when we were finishing I was, we were driving to, uh, my gosh, was it Lincoln, Nebraska? It was a long car ride for AAU basketball and I was just, just kind of narrating it all out and it's just like pages of, and then this happened and then this happened and then this happened and it's over. It was over a 3-year period, you know, cuz you had your winters that you couldn't do anything.

Yeah.

Um, but what a fun project. And that's why the whole time at the dedication, I just kept weeping like, oh, this is so amazing. But it's ridiculous.

I also had to speak my piece a couple of times about people negative about that.

Yeah.

And I did.

I said, thank you for—

don't be criticizing that. I said, look at all the volunteers that are working on that. And I just, I'm not going to mention, of course, any names, but a couple of people, I had to just put them in their place. I just said, don't be letting me hear you say that because it's a great thing.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like this, this balance to me of, um, free speech and getting to vent and share your opinions. And then just to me, the other question is always like, who is that actually serving though? You know, especially if you're tearing down something that so many people were a part of and people gave money to and all, all those things, right? Like, I don't know, sometimes you just want to say, if you put that amount of energy of hating something into loving something, man, you'd create something great.

You have to try to remember not to spend a lot of time with negative people.

Amen.

Because it drags you down.

It definitely does. And it's hard. Public sector work is hard. And that's why, you know, a lot of the people that listen to the show are people that are like community development people, Chambers of Commerce people. And I always just want to remind them that there's people like you in every town. And so maybe this episode will be their reminder to like, you don't have to invite them in and have them on a podcast, but talk to them and thank them every time you see them.

I get really frustrated when I hear people making fun of our town. I've had some relatives, they come back and visit and they'll start criticizing.

And what do they, what do they criticize? Can I ask?

What's there to do here? What, what about this one cousin of mine? She talked about riding horse. What do you mean riding horse? We have a great horse club here.

We have a horse club, but we need an arena.

All kinds of stuff. They have a rodeo in the summer.

Yep.

She lives in Montana. She's big horse. Oh, really? I mean, my aunt was still living at the time and she said, I could tell you were getting hot under the collar.

I love that you get hot under the collar about our town, Jackie.

This is a great town. We have a lot going on. We have a great school. I tell people this all the time. A hospital, we have a school, we have everything. It's a great little town. It's a small town, but it's a safe place to live.

You know, can you even imagine the impact if more people talked even 50% as positive as that? I mean, it really— because the one thing, this again, this guy Ben Winchester, one of my favorite quotes that he ever said to me was, people won't move to your town out of pity. So like, if we walk around saying, God, this town sucks, and there's nothing to do here, and who the heck would ever want to move here? Well, it's— people aren't going to listen to that and be like, oh, I think they need my help. Like, that's not— people want to join something that's successful. People want to go where they can see themselves being successful.

And I, with all these young people moving back, which is great, and I always say we cannot have it just old people in this town. We have to have the young people here. There's the— that's the future of our town.

Well, it is. And I care deeply about making sure that you still feel like you count, that you matter. You know what I mean? I don't ever want to treat our oldest and most precious generation, the ones that we can learn so much from, right? Treat you like we're just bypassing you. But I love so much that you do understand that there's got to almost be a step aside and making room. We have to make room for these young people that are coming in. You know what? Sometimes they maybe don't know jack. They maybe don't know anything. Let them try. They'll learn. We learned, you know. And, and, and nobody actually learns by us telling them they're wrong. People don't take that in and go, oh, okay, thank you so much for saving me from myself, right? Like, people wanna— they wanna try, and we've got to let them.

You got to get out of the way and let them. Yep. Yeah.

Was there something else you're gonna say?

I was just thinking a couple things. When we were talking about the park, I had a thought that, you know, that place was the Old Oaks Cafe where the park's at. And that Oaks Cafe was very much a gathering place. Well, how awesome that we have a park that can be a gathering place again.

Right. Well, and for over 40 years it sat vacant.

Sat vacant.

Because it burned down in '80 or '81, right? '80s.

I was working at the Grand Saloon. Theater the night it burned down.

Were you really?

The Muppet Movie. And I remember it was a movie theater full of kids and somebody came running into the theater, the cafe is on fire, the cafe is on fire! And we had to evacuate.

Yeah, because that just— again, for people that don't know our Main Street, that's just like a storefront between them.

Yep.

Holy smokes, that had to be kind of scary.

Yeah, and Kenny's sister Gloria owned the cafe at that time. Them too.

Did she really? Holy smokes. Again, I didn't know that.

So that was— I remember like people, it was like, you know, tearing or pulling stuff out of the buildings around it. Like the furniture store that was next to it, right? My grandparents lived across the alley. We were emptying their house out. Um, and it was— I remember snow coming. It was, it was crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. And it was the middle of the winter, wasn't it? Yeah. Was that '81, you think?

I think '81 was when we pulled up like records. I think it was '81.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Yeah.

So it's very cool that it's the gathering place again.

Yeah. Well, and that's the thing too. I have this whole building and just obviously what it does and what it is now is very different than what my grandparents did in it. I just think memories, buildings, and locations hold a lot of collective memory for our community. Like, it's just so special. It's so special to know that we're building new memories, you know, in this building.

Well, you would probably have the memory of this being the Penny's and coming in here.

Sure.

Doing your shopping. So definitely, you know, the going up the steps and all that stuff, the material and stuff was upstairs.

Yeah, they had a dumbwaiter. So you'd pick out—

we had a dumbwaiter.

Dang. Pick out the stuff and you'd pay, and then she'd put the stuff in.

Oh yeah, it was like a hydraulic— yeah, not hydraulic, that's not the word—

cashier up there.

Yeah, like a chute, like a money chute. Yeah, I think, uh, it was Bonnie Maley who just— her like vivid memory of watching that and how fascinated she was as a kid right up there. Yeah, isn't that cool?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, then you remember, I imagine you remember all of the faces of this building. So you remember then when they broke it into two storefronts? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is an interesting little detour in our building.

What stores it was though?

Uh, Stoick's Jewelry and Furniture.

Oh yeah, well, it was Watkins, Watkins Furniture.

Yeah, yep, yep, yeah. And that's— we have all of that on the back wall, you know, so if people—

right.

And you can see where it splits and then where they took the wall back. It's so interesting. The basement has 3 different staircases that go to nowhere. So at one point there was 3 different places where you could come up from the basement in this building.

Wow. I could see a lot of weirdment happening around Halloween time.

Listen, we've got it pretty well cleaned out, so it's quite the basement down there.

Space.

I know, when we took it over, my kids were just— they were younger, right? And they would just tear around down there. I would just be like, well, don't hurt yourselves, you know? Oh, well, I, um, we've already talked for 45 full minutes. Is that amazing or what? Has this been painful for the two of you?

Not at all.

Yay!

Oh good. I just, again, I want to remind, um, everybody listening to this that there are people like Jackie and Lisa in your town. If you don't have them, I'm sorry, because like, you guys are just— you're two of my favorite people in this community. I mean it, just in terms of every time I see you, you're smiling, you're positive.

Well, not always.

You can be grouchy. It's— being grouchy is okay, but you, you're never— you're not grouchy at like the world. And you're not running around, and you're also an advocate for this community. And you actually—

totally.

Yeah, you actually speak out against people that are running things down for no reason.

I try to— I try to keep positive around negative people. It's kind of hard sometimes.

It is hard sometimes. That's why we need each other though, right? That's why we need to keep showing up for each other.

And I just think it's like I'll often say, maybe you want to run for school board.

Oh, love that.

Maybe you want to run for city council.

Sounds like you have a lot of strong opinions about that. You should run for city council. Yeah.

Maybe you should run for one of those positions.

That is also a great answer. Like, oh, you have this many strong opinions. You want to say they're doing it wrong? Sounds like you should take a seat. Yeah. And that's just it. And that's good encouragement. Not that we necessarily want cranky people like that being in those positions, but it's like, don't run down the people. You know, right now running for public office is just a real challenge. And I'm thankful that people even still want to do it. You know, like there's, there's a pretty strong, um, perspective even in our town where if you own a business, you shouldn't sit on certain boards because if you make a decision and it hurts something or somebody doesn't like it, they won't frequent your business, you know. And that, that's something I just hope we can continue to push back against and remind people that when they're doing it, they're doing it because they want to make the town better, and that we should be grateful to anybody that steps into those roles because it's just not easy.

Yes, that is sad to hear that, but I've also heard it and seen it, maybe like seeing the actual fallout of it. Yeah, yeah. So it's too bad.

So think about all the people that might be listening to this. What is the thing you most want them to know about what they can do to make their towns better? Aside from what we've talked about, like you guys show up.

Well, get involved. Get involved as much as you can. I mean, even just try to be involved in things.

Well, yeah.

Stay informed.

Yes.

Yeah, that is— I would— the informed part, that's a good point, Mother, because even just— yeah, stay informed. You don't know what you don't know. Stay informed.

Well, and don't just take like one random comment that you hear and then run with it. Yeah, be a good source. Your information—

something's gonna change and they'll have open forum meetings. Go, go, go and hear what it's about.

Amen. Amen.

No, don't just sit at your— on your kitchen table and gripe about what they're doing.

Oh man, I swear to goodness, if I could just clone you two, I would. I would all day long. Seriously. Yeah, no, I really would. Uh, so seriously, thank you. Thank you for doing something that you maybe— have you ever been on— have either of you ever been on a podcast before?

No.

You guys are natural.

Teams meeting.

Podcasts? I haven't been around that long.

Well, listen, you did fantastically well. Both of you kept leaning into the one mic we had. You did great.

I feel like I'm up there on the level of like the Will Arnett.

Yeah, you are. Like, yes, an armchair expert or a good hang. Good hang. This was a good hang. So thank you both. And honestly, I just again want to say it for a person that I always— I want to take big swings for this community. I like to aim high and shoot for the moon and do these big things. And none of it could happen without great people like you.

Well, and I would say back at you, Becky. Yeah, Becky does it with people like you that do it.

Well, we can't do it if people don't show up, right? And if there's not people that constantly boo-ee us, right? Because there are days where I'm just like, I hate everybody. And I don't actually ever hate anybody, but there are days where I'm like, like, oh, you know, I'm going to speak back to—

I think some of my pride in our town comes from my mom because she was a city auditor. She raised 10 kids on the farm, got a job after we were some of us old enough to take over a little bit on the other kids. That was city auditor for almost 20 years in Oaks. I mean, she was proud of Oaks, very proud of Oaks.

And that, yeah, you saw that actually demonstrated to you in a very clear way. I feel like I had that example, my grandparents and the way they showed up for this community. And clearly, Lisa, you had that instilled in you too. And what an amazing thing to pass, to pass on. And you're impacting everybody around you with that same sense of pride. It's just so, it's just so fun to do life with both of you.

We have family that come once in a while and visit. And one of my nieces from Oklahoma said, I have the best memories of Oaks. I love running with Darcy, running, chasing boys. I have the best memories of Oaks. He still tells me that all the time when I see her.

Well, and shouldn't that be the goal?

Yeah.

Is just to create great memories for people. And thank you both for supporting everything that happens in this town and being the kind of people that I'm— I truly, I'm like, just, I love doing life with the two of you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, well, you might have to come back now too sometime. We hope you loved this episode of the Growing Small Towns show. We encourage you to leave us messages at 701-203-3337 and be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at growingsmalltowns.com. In the meantime, keep doing what you can with what you have right where you are. Your community needs you.

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