S5:E12 - Making Room for New People with Meredith McMurray

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Today's guest is Meredith McMurray, and she represents a first on our podcast. Meredith is a woman from California originally, and she now resides in the small town of Burke, South Dakota. And she actually reached out to our hotline number, which again, like, I laughed when we started. I was like, "It's not really a hotline." She's like, "I might have treated it that way." She just reached out to say, "Hey, like, I'm a transplant to this small community and I'm struggling to find my way." And she said, you know, "Have you ever really interviewed somebody that is a transplant in a small town?" And I was like, well, we've touched on that topic on the show before, but not, I haven't necessarily interviewed a person and just really got deep into what they were experiencing and really, This is a long episode, and I found myself surprised, delighted, and truly just empathetic towards her and her experience. And again, like, we don't ever come— I don't ever come into these episodes with any intention to do anything other than to encourage us to think differently about what kind of environment we're creating, what more we can do. And the other thing about this too is there are some bits and pieces of advice for transplants in this conversation as well, 'cause it's never, it's a relationship. The relationships that each of us as residents has with our community, there's things both parties need to do. Sometimes it's the transplant and sometimes it's the community. Just so many things we could try to shift towards a more positive, connected, and place of belonging for somebody that doesn't, that doesn't hail from our community. So I haven't had a conversation like this in quite some time. And I'm so grateful to Meredith for showing up and sharing the very real conversation because I'm just gonna be honest about this, guys. Like, there's so many things about her, her exact background and the way she approaches the world and everything that might create a lot of, like, out-of-hand judgment or criticism because it's just kind of our nature to maybe judge what we don't know. And that's why I think calling more attention to her lived experience It gives us just all opportunities to think differently about the way that we're showing up, about the way that we're welcoming, or if we are. So enjoy this first on the Growing Small Towns show with our new friend Meredith McMurray. Well, hey Meredith, welcome to the show.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Well, this is a, this is a first for the Growing Small Towns Show podcast. Um, uh, for a couple of reasons, the, the fact that you called, you called our hotline, which we don't actually call it a hotline, but you called our number and just said like, hey, this is something I'm experiencing. Um, originally it was like, would you be willing just to have a conversation? And then the more that we kind of went back and forth. I'm just so excited to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for reaching out, first of all. Um, and thank you for trusting me and our show to kind of, to kind of talk through this situation.

Thank you very much. I'll admit I used it like a hotline.

You know what? We like, we love it. I mean, that's great.

Yeah.

That's what we're here for. So why don't we just start, uh, wherever feels good to you, honestly, Meredith, like give us maybe, um, a little, give our audience a little bit of a background, um, as to, you know, what brought you. So you're now in a community in South Dakota, um, not from here. Um, and maybe that's, maybe that's what we should just have. We should just title this episode Not From Here.

Yeah.

Because that's honestly, that's one of those things. Um, so to kind of tee this up for you and for the audience, um, I think there's, there is, there are still a lot of communities that if people are there that are not from there. That means different things to different communities. First of all, I think there's kind of this tenure. I don't, we don't, nobody knows the number, like what's the magical number where you finally feel like you're from a place. I really think that varies from town to town. Um, but you've had a very specific experience not being from the community that you're now residing in. Um, and I think it might be helpful. Because one of the things I love, I, I think it might be helpful for our audience to understand how, how you got to be where you're at, how you chose it and why. Um, because I, I honestly think, Meredith, that any of us that have ever worked in community development or like we are somehow part of our community's, um, long-term kind of growth strategy, whether that's like Chamber of Commerce, economic development, whatever, I think that there kind of is this weird I think there's a little bit of a misconception that people that have no connections to our community won't ever arrive at our community. And that's actually just not true.

Right.

Right. And so I think your story, how you came to be, um, and you can share as much of that feels, it feels as feels good to you. Um, but just to give somebody, everybody some context, like what brought you to South Dakota?

Yeah. So, um, My name is Meredith and I am from Marin County, California, which some people know what that is, others don't. It is what connects to the Golden Gate Bridge. So you have San Francisco on the south side of the Golden Gate Bridge and on the north side is Marin County. And when I was born, it was a magical place. And, um, and so I'd say 5 years ago, it became not a magical place. And I think a lot led up to that moment, of course, in 2020 is what I'm referring to. But, um, yeah, it was subject to some pretty intense lockdowns that lasted about 2 years, but I only lasted there under that circumstance for about 16 months. And then, um, I fled because I was a business owner and I lost my business. You know, it became, it became unviable to operate of business and probably not for the reasons people would think. Like, um, anyway, I can get into that later, but I ended up deciding to no longer serve that community. Um, because for me as a business owner, I was, uh, my whole heart was into the service of the community. And I, I realized that after being labeled literally nonessential, it was time to choose. To serve a different community with my existence. You know, I didn't necessarily build back the same business somewhere else. I'm just a person now living in an area, and I'm just now, you know, I've been here for over 2 years. I'm just starting to kind of build some different things, and I have a million ideas, but I am a person who serves. I realize that my presence in a city— and this is true for all people, I believe— your presence where you live is a contribution. And so I made an intentional choice to leave where I was from. I left a place that would consider me and what I do for a living as non-essential. And I now live in the place that, you know, in 2020 I was hearing that all South Dakotans are essential. And so I, I drove, I packed my Prius and drove and came here with no plan. That's the literal truth. So, okay.

So before we move on, Meredith, there's a couple things I think I have to stop and just touch on. So, um, There's a couple of really beautiful truths, um, in what you've shared so far. Um, painful truths too. Um, I personally think there's always beauty in pain or there's no point. And, um, that's, I, I just believe there's always some sort of a point. Sometimes it's really hard to see or find in the moment, of course. Um, but I think what you just shared is, is truly one of, one of my personal deepest and most deeply held convictions is that like who we are, our contribution, the way that we show up is how we build community. It's how we give to where we're from. And I really hope that the listeners, even so far, can really hear the pain for you in the idea that your presence, your service, didn't— it couldn't— it didn't have a home in the current city that you were living in. And it was also the place where you had grown up. And so there's lessons in that alone for us. And I guess I'll kind of stated as a bit of encouragement is to, is I think all of us should be thinking about, are we making room in our respective communities for people to, to steward their gifts well? Because my, my goodness, that's what it's about. And the idea that you chose a place based on technically, I mean, I wouldn't say it was a political statement or like even a marketing message, right? But it was a declaration. Um, so the other cool thing about that is like communities that are listening to this. You, if you want to be the kind of place where all people are considered essential, then you can say that, but then you have to be it. But that's, I mean, that's the power of strongly stating who you are. Like it, you heard it halfway across the country. And like you said, you packed up your Prius and you went, I want to go where I'm considered essential. I think that is rad all day, every day. So And super, um, super brave and courageous of you. That's kind of incredible. Okay, keep going. I'm sorry, I just think like, oh, these notes for people that are listening, it's incredible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop me any— stop me anytime. I, I appreciate it. Um, so, um, I guess, what do you want to know from there?

Yeah, well, so you— yeah, so you— so you arrived in South Dakota. Did you have any connections to the community at all? That you chose. What made you choose it? Can you share a bit about that? Like, how did you decide on the small community that you're living in?

Why Burke? Yeah, okay. Um, so I first came to Rapid City. I knew about a conference which is called, um, the Freedom Fest. It's a convention, I guess. Uh, yeah, it's a convention. Um, Freedom Fest is where I went first. Governor Kristi Noem was was speaking there, and I wanted to go and shake her hand for saying that all South Dakotans are essential. That's the person I heard on the TV say, "All South Dakotans are essential." So I got, you know, really excited by that. And so I went to that festival, I paid the extra to get in her little room and shook her hand and cried and just said, "I just appreciate that you are the only governor in this nation who said that on national television." And so From there I sat and after the convention didn't know at all what I was going to do. And so, gosh, how do I— Well, it's got like—

I can't even— but seriously, even listening to this, like, I can't even believe that that's how you arrived there. Like, yeah, I— again, if you are a person that speaks on behalf of your community at all, the question or the statement I just want to like make at this point is like, what are you saying about yourselves? Because it literally is an— it can be an actual attraction mechanism for people.

Yeah.

I mean, truly, that's— that is so— I just think that is such a cool story. And by the way, like, with this, it's called Freedom Fest. Freedom Fest.

Yeah, Freedom Fest. Yeah, it's, um, do they do it?

Is it like something that happens regularly, or was this like a one-time deal?

It's every year. It's in different locations. It just so happened to be in Rapid City, South Dakota in the year 2021. Yeah, in July. It normally takes place.

Well, we're gonna, we're gonna go ahead and dig up all the info on that and we'll link to it all in the show notes, just because again, I think that's, that's, that's crazy. Okay, so you, you end up, um, kind of shaking hands with the person whose message resonated enough to make you, to get you there, right?

Yeah.

And then what?

Yeah.

And then what? Where'd you go from there?

Yeah, so I sat for a minute and, um, so By trade, I am a lot of things. It's hard to get an artist to say what exactly they are, right? That—

yeah, we don't need to box you in.

That will make sense in human language, right? Yeah. So, um, I'm a— I'm an entertainer. I'm a performing artist. And I, um, I'm a bit of a philosopher, if I'm honest. And So anyway, I've also been a stripper for like 10 years.

And I didn't know that part of your backstory. Oh my gosh, Meredith, you are— you're fascinating. My pants are off over here.

To surprise you. Yeah, yeah.

No, I love it. Well, so how about this? Like you said, you don't like— okay, you're an artist, you're an entertainer. Maybe now is the time to share what was your business, the business that got so decimated by the circumstances of 2020. What? Yeah, what was it?

Rewinding to the year 2019, I had actually quit dancing, quit being a stripper in the club for several reasons, and instead I bought a business Uh, because I'm also an aerial acrobat and those are two very different things. Um, so I bought a business which already existed. It had over 200 students actively enrolled in the program and the original founder of that business was going to retire in May of 2018. And so leading up to the business deal, I think I started talking with her in like Maybe March, you know, and then by May I decided that it was a yes and I was going to buy the business from her. So I made about a $30,000 investment into, into taking over ownership of the business. And I did have to borrow the majority of that. You know, it's a business and I bought it. And so— Right.

That did you, did you, were you just renting the space?

So yeah, that brings me to a really important point, right? I, yeah, I bought the business and then I installed about $10,000 of hardware into the ceiling because we're aerial acrobats. Sure. Yep. And, and I was just a renter in this building, which is normal in California. It's normal in, well, at least the populated, I think majority of California, that's normal, especially in the really populated areas. And, um, small tangent, it's just as soon as I got here in Burke, I realized, oh my God, it looks like— and I think, and I asked my boyfriend, I'm like, I think all the business owners own the buildings where their business takes place. And it's like, this to me was like a shock, like, oh my God, you know. And then most of the people who live in homes, they all own their homes, like This is right, right. So abnormal where I'm from. And honestly, in my lifetime, if I had stayed in Marin, I'd be looking at probably a lifetime of being a renter, like an entire life of not having an option.

Right.

And so that is one of the points I want to make, um, is that is the value of property ownership, especially if it's the business that you own. I mean, I think both livers and, and business businesses should anyway. So that's a big point. Yeah, for sure. I was only a renter. Yeah. And I can tell you too that probably if I had owned the building where my business existed in California, I'd probably still be in business there today because I would have chosen never to have closed. And that would have been something that I could have done. That's a decision I could have made. And yeah, people would have done this and that to try to get at me. But as a property owner, there would have been limitations to what could have been done to my business, and I would have had more, you know, I would have had more resources to stand a little stronger instead of the cardboard or the, the cart, the house of cards, if you will, that was my existence in California as, as a renter. You know, I really, it was easy to blow me out of the, of the game. So yeah, right.

That makes, that makes perfect sense. I mean, truly. Okay. Uh, let's, and again, let's just, I, I love, I I love that you shared so many parts of your background, but I mean, even owning an aerial acrobatics— like, basically it was a training— it was like a training company. Yeah, because you're instructing people, you're instructing— what was the age of your students? Like, how—

yeah, my students range ages from 6 years old to 70 years old. Yeah, that's really cool. I had over— like I said, over 200 students remained actively enrolled in the program after I took over ownership. We had 8 normal months to operate great together with me as the leader. I had a team of 6 adult instructors and a handful more of student-in-training instructors, which was really— I mean, I had paid acrobats. I owned a small but successful performance company with, uh, for aerial acrobats as well. And it was just, oh my God, I mean, I loved like performing and entertaining, but to pay another acrobat was like the best, like one of the best moments of my career. And then to coach up the youth, to prepare them, to prepare them to have a career in the arts, like a well-paid career. I'm not talking about pennies here. I was really, you know, well-paying my people. And I'm passionate about artists being able to earn enough, you know, to be able to have a normal life doing the arts.

Yeah. Oh, same. I have, I have a huge, I mean, that's a huge part of what we hope to do better at or to encourage and, and just encourage more acceptance of it in, especially in smaller communities. So, okay. I, again, I just think when, when you, when you reached out and you left the message saying like, I'm also an aerial acrobat, I was just like, what? So I, I just wanna share, this is gonna sound super random, but we actually hired a performing aerial acrobat. For one of our like summer celebrations here in our little town. And so, and it was so, it was so cool. The only thing that was wild is to be like, we live in North Dakota, right? And it was windy as all get out, which made it very challenging for her. And it was a challenge to decide to even like do it. But I think, I think, I think it's one of those things that people might not be able to in any way imagine where they would ever run into that kind of performance art outside of like maybe Vegas, right? Or like these bigger, bigger ideas of where it is. And literally that happened on Main Street in my little town.

So great.

Yeah. So I mean, I, I love, I love that. It's super unusual and unique. And there's still, I would love to assume there's still room in a town like Burke for you and for your skills. Okay. So you, you makes perfect sense why California wasn't wasn't, um, wasn't feeling like home for you anymore. So you got to Rapid City, talked to Kristi Gnome, shook her hand, thanked her for attracting you there, basically. Um, and then, so then what? How did you, how did you end up in Burke?

So in my time as being a stripper, which I know a lot of people want to have a feeling or opinion about, and that's fine, not trying to change anyone's thoughts or feelings about that, but that What that is the story of my life. And so I had heard a rumor, like, amongst other strippers about the pheasant hunting season in South Dakota. Like, it's kind of seemed like a myth, you know, to us. And then as soon as I found myself actually in South Dakota, because there was a year, I think it was 2019, I had thought about going to try to investigate this. And, you know, but it's a bit of a leap. Like, if you live comfortable in a city and your club is working out for you, you don't really necessarily wanna just travel for no reason when it could be like a risk or whatever. But there I was actually in South Dakota and I was like, let me just, let me just see. And to this day, I don't remember how I got in touch with one of the clubs in Dallas, South Dakota, but I did. I got in touch with one of 'em and I ended up working there for 2 and a half months. And so the, the pheasant hunting season starts in September and it goes all the way through December. So that was, Yeah, September through December 2021, I was there. And so the beauty of this, the beautiful part of this particular part of the story is I left California with $38,000 of debt from the loss of my business. I made $35,000 in 2.5 months working 4 nights a week. And so I basically was able to solve the financial wounding that was done to me by the government in California with the freedom and, you know, just the heart of, of that part of the South Dakotan culture. You know, I, I understand the pheasant hunting to be quite a tradition there. And so yeah, it just really like solved that problem so I could then kind of operate, you know, free and clear from there, you know? So yeah.

Okay, so I don't know how this is going to land with you, and you get to be honest about that. Okay. Because my brain, my brain is kind of sparking in about a million directions.

Yeah.

So you already just made the statement like, I'm sure there are some people that might struggle, right, with— and you're just, you're just like, this is my experience. I think, I think that there's, there's some room for us to discuss even just right now. The, the, the, what, what would it look like if we opened our minds to, to thinking differently about, because what you just shared, Meredith, I think is, is so important. You, you, you made a, you made a choice, um, to do a kind of work that I, I mean, I, I think you're absolutely right that there's probably, it probably comes with a decent amount of judgment. I mean, I, I think that's a reasonable thing to assume, right? And, but you're also, you're also literally saying that you, on your own, with your own, you know, like fully eyes wide open choice, got yourself out of a really terrible place financially.

Yeah.

And so I, I'm sitting here and I'm just thinking, like, I get, again, I feel a lot of gratitude to you for, for coming to me and being willing to talk to me about this because you're actually just touching on things that don't get talked about a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, that honestly, even like exotic dancing or stripping as a profession is not something we have ever touched on on this episode or on this podcast, as you can imagine. Um, but I think there's also some realities to that. And I, I just wanna say that I would hate that anybody that has a judgment of the profession would then make blanket assumptions or judgments about you as a person.

Appreciate that. Thank you.

You're sitting, you're sitting in front of me. We're over Zoom. You're only a state away. I'm hoping here we actually get to meet face to face. But like, listening to your, your articulate, you're smart. You work hard. You didn't blame anybody else. Like, you— there are so many things about your story that are honestly just patently unfair. It sucks. Okay. Like, let's just say that what happened to you, the timing of it all, the lack of agency, the lack of choice that you actually had about— like, it wasn't like you couldn't make your business work. You were not given a choice to operate. And that decision was made for you, Meredith. You could have just whined. And there's a million things you could have done that would have been worse than the choice you made. And so I'm feeling really, I guess, kind of protective of that part of your story in this. And just what would it look like if we didn't immediately, out of hand, judge something or a person for a choice that they made. Do you see what I'm saying? I feel like I can really hold the nuance of this and see still, to me, even if I'd have a problem with what you did as a profession, A, it happened right in my neck of the woods. So it's something that I think it's at least shedding some light on that. Also the potential of actually handling your own financial situation, that again, like, you had to make a choice to get out of that hole and you did it that fast. There's a lot to this. And I don't know if anything that I just said strikes anything in your heart, but yeah, it does. Yeah. Your bravery for sharing it, I just can't say enough.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And first, I will say I am so proud of myself and my own life. And I say that because I know and love lots of other strippers. And what I see happen sometimes is there is a tendency to, once you sort of decide to retire for whatever reason, there's a tendency to turn your back on it and try to kind of COVID it up or act like it didn't happen or, you know, change the story of your life to exclude that as part of the life. And there's never going to be a day where I will do that. To my life. Um, I'm too proud of, of it. And I— not, not too proud, I am very proud of it. And it is, it is the story. That's the truth of me and my life. And, um, also I guess I want to share with people that, um, I don't, I don't say to women that they should become a stripper. I don't Um, I don't like suggest that because the way a job like that can land on your average person's psychology, you know, I realize that it can be not— it can be not positive for some people. And so, um, that's, that's unfortunate. And there's a whole other section of my life where I sit and I think about ways to make it safer, to make it more healthy, to make it more happy for everybody, because I really, I feel strongly that You know, clubs have existed since society has existed, you know, and so they're not, they're not going anywhere. You know, you may close one down, you may close another down, but they are not going, they are not leaving society, right? So, so I am interested in like, you know, the safety of all people. And so yeah, I think that's a good, that's kind of a good, you know, amount of time to spend on that. But okay, the other thing I wanted to say is You know, in California when my business, uh, it was called Aerial Arts Fairfax, and the Instagram is still up if people wanted to see that, the magic that it was.

Uh, we'll, we'll for sure link to that too.

Great. Um, so there were opportunities, and I put that in quotations because I didn't investigate, to, to apply for like funding, you know, this kind of rescue funding from the government was like, yep. Yeah, there was a big push. And I actually know that lots of businesses got 5 and 6 figures of this like funding. And it was— they were referred to as both grants and loans. Correct. And I found, I found that to be very confusing and very much like a trap. And so I made a very deliberate choice. I think I applied for one and I got it all, all in all, it was about $5,500 for the business Aerial Arts Fairfax. And then I applied as an independent artist and got $1,000. So I got a total of $6,500, um, of this funding. And I didn't apply anymore because the entire process just felt disgusting to me because I, I just found it to be demeaning. It's like, what is the message being sent here? Am I I'm being taken out at the knee professionally. There goes my business. There goes my right to generate value for the community, which was the goal every time I opened my eyes in the morning. Okay. To generate, to generate value for the community. Right. And there they, there they were just giving me money to sit on my what? Couch? Like to then what? To just sit on my couch? Literally, it was like what they want. Like, that's what they wanted me to do. And I just was so insulted by the process. And so I, while, while I do, I can wrap my head around government funding in certain contexts to be appropriate, but I will tell you right now, I am extremely passionate about wherever possible empowering people to be able to generate value instead of this government handout thing. I actually feel, I feel really strongly that those types of handouts. It's like they want us to go to sleep. They want us to lay down. What is it? It felt very like my conspiratorial senses start really flaring up. We'll just say with this type of mechanism.

Yeah, well, I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. And I'll just say I wish more people maybe had that perspective that Um, that compensation should, should accompany value production, kind of full stop, right?

Yeah. Revenue, you know, revenue, right?

That's just, I, I totally get why it hit you that way because, because ultimately it wasn't just about paying your bills, it was about creating value and it was about being who you are. And if you weren't generating revenue through teaching people, performing yourself, and, and paying and lifting up other performers.

Yeah.

That your entire identity as a person wasn't able to be expressed, right? And so it was like, you don't want to be compensated for something that you're actually not able to do and you're not able to create. I, I fully get that. I think, I think that makes a ton of sense.

Okay.

So 2 and a half months, you pay back this $30,000 debt. And so now you, you're kind of clean slate starting from scratch as far as revenue generation and what comes next. So then what, what did you, what happened next?

Great question. Cause it's not like I just stayed here. So Dallas is just about 20 miles away from Burke where I live now, but I didn't just stay at this point. I actually fled like after the season of dancing, it was very taxing. It's, it's very physically and psychologically demanding work. And so I ended up leaving and going to oddly enough, Dallas, Texas. Texas, um, just, just to some— yeah, I just— and I, I can't really— there was another conference there, and so I don't know, I kind of like wearing a blazer, and so I'll go to these, you know, freedom-related conferences and wear a blazer and just meet people. It's kind of how I am. And, um, stayed there for about 90 days and then realized it's a lot— actually, it's a lot like San Francisco there, like, just in terms of the super high population. And I actually got kicked out of a business for not wearing a mask there, and that just like gave me like major PTSD. And so I went from there to Daytona Beach, Florida, where I have some girlfriends that live, and we had a great time. Um, Speed Week was around that time, like in, uh, February of 2022. And so I lived in Florida for a year, and what happened was, long story short, um, one of the— I was able to meet one of the, you know, a few of the locals, but one of the locals here in Burke stayed in touch with me. You know, he's a very caring man. And so this man ended up becoming my boyfriend. And so we started a relationship long distance, me in Florida and him here. He's a farmer. And so after about 6 months, we ended up deciding to move me here. And so, yeah, I've been here for over 2 years now.

Yeah. Okay. So you might be one of the most fascinating people that has ever just reached out to me on this show. Like, I love you. You're like, I like to wear a blazer. And go meet people. I'm like, same, Meredith. I feel the same. So I just, again, I think it's so fascinating. Okay. And, you know, we often talk about how love makes us do crazy things. I think it's just kind of true. Love is a very, very powerful force. It can— yeah, it can cause us to do lots of things we would never, you know, otherwise consider. So you end up in the town of Burke, South Dakota. And that population is roughly what, 500?

500 people. And I actually live outside of Burke. Yeah, I think the low—

because you're on a farm—

to be specific. Yeah, exactly right. So I'm about 8 miles away. Yeah, from that.

Okay, so you've been— you said 2 years you've been back now? Yeah, in Burke. Okay, so this is where, again, as we talk about these things, I take very seriously that the entire goal is to open heart hearts and open minds. Okay. Like, that is the goal of this show. That's why we talk about the things we talk about. So whatever questions I am going to ask you, I really just hope everybody listening to this, including, of course, the lovely citizens of Burke, South Dakota, realize that we're trying— we're trying to have a broader conversation about ways that I think all communities probably can do a better job of welcoming newcomers, right? Because it is— I, I want people, I want people that move to my community. So I'll just focus on our town, right, in Oaks here. When people come here, the faster that we connect them to the things they love, the stuff that lights them up, and give them opportunities to just like tap into those unique things that are inside every single one of us, right? And they find a way to either give those things or participate those things, the faster and the better chance I think we have as a community of making this feel like home to them. I mean, it's a sense of belonging connected to a sense of purpose. And it's so funny, I'll just talk about this until I'm dead because I actually believe so strongly that that's how we do it. It's intentional, it's super unique, it's individualized, and you can't really scale it. It's not like, it's not like we can do that without just being good to these people, to new people that come to our community. So as we talk about this, I really wanna make sure that we just like lay that foundation, that we are talking about this from the perspective of how can we all be better. The Growing Small Towns Show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns Podcast Studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pleasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough, and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge, and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you. Today's Small Town Shout Out is, uh, Ellendale, North Dakota, the county seat of Dickey County, which is the county that I reside in. And, um, Ellendale is going through something that I think would be easy to look at and say, gosh, Gosh, I wish that would happen to us. But they are the recipient, I guess I'll call them the recipient, they're the site, maybe I'll call them that, of a major economic development project there. It's called Applied Digital and it's a data mining center. And the revenue that the city of Ellendale is going to enjoy because of this project is game-changing. There's no question about it. The reason I'm giving Allendale a shout out though is because, um, as great as that growth sounds, it comes with a ton of challenges. And primarily I want to shout out the residents of Allendale, North Dakota, because I know it's not easy. I've listened to a good number of you talk about it, talk about this project, talk about how it feels, and I just want to remind you all that even though this project is game-changing in a lot of ways, it doesn't mean that you were broken or worthless or not in any way valuable before it. And I think sometimes when things like this happen, we can focus on the change and we forget about the costs. And I just want to tell you that we see you, we feel you, and we're in it with you. And yeah, it's not, as I thought about this one, it's definitely different, but I think it's important to make sure that people remember that their input all along, the people that have been there all along, what they need, what they want, what they desire, it does matter. And so citizens of Allendale, just keep showing up, Keep making your voices heard and do it with positivity, um, with open-mindedness, open-heartedness. And, uh, we can't wait to keep watching the success of this project and all of you as you go. So keep at it, Allendale. And so I think it's always so fascinating, like, so you come back and you're connected now to— is, is your boyfriend from there?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Like, generation, multiple generations, right?

I was going to assume that because that's a lot of times that accompanies the farming lifestyle, right? It's land. Yeah. And they've— so he's the fourth generation of his family to farm their land. He's got history there, right?

Yeah.

And so the first thing that I think is funny about this is that I think it would be easy for anybody to make the assumption that it shouldn't be that hard because he's from there.

Like, for you, it shouldn't be that hard for me.

Yeah. Like, you to live there and you to find your way. I honestly think there'd be a lot. I know I can— well, no one else can see your face but me. I think that that's a misconception.

Oh my God. Yeah.

That just because you have those connections and the connection, the person you're connected to has deep roots, that means nothing about anybody's willingness or the ease of people to accept and embrace you. So let's talk about that. Maybe, you know, like, what have you found? What's been tricky? What's been challenging? What surprised you? Anything you want to share, Meredith, as we talk about this? Because this is a real thing in every community, every single community that's listening to this.

Okay, I'm excited. Yeah. So I almost wonder if the statement is the opposite, because he's kind of he's so— he's super used to here, you know, everything the way that it is. And then I, I appeared, I beamed down, you know. I feel like an alien that just beamed. I kind of did though, right?

I bet that's exactly how you feel.

Yeah. And so that's cute and that's fun. And by the way, let me just say, like, um, I had lots of fun getting to know my boyfriend. Um, he taught me to drive tractor. Like, here I am out here I am pulling the rake in hay season. I am learning, helping him fix fence. I can't do much with the fence. That's like a really intense job, right? But I hold the thing while he hammers the thing and I try to carry the log. I love that.

I hold the thing while he hammers some other thing. That's perfect. Listen, I technically am the 5th generation of my family to farm and that's how I talk about farming stuff. So you're in good company, Meredith. But yeah, I love that you jumped in. You jumped in to immerse yourself in his life. I mean, that's—

yeah, yeah. And so we have had like farm fun and all this, and I recognize too that it's very hard work. And so I'm learning how to exist around, um, the stress of the farm and also, also demanding that he play a little more too, because— and I do it because, um, the farm is so stressful and there is so much on the line. And so sometimes I force him to laugh and play with me.

I feel like every farmer on the planet needs somebody to remind them to laugh and play and be silly a little bit. Yeah, I think that's wonderful.

My personality is— I am from California, but I'm not this soft, passive-aggressive thing. I will, I will not physically fight, but I will fight over things that are important, like laughter and, you know, like levity. And, you know, stress management is like the technical word, what I'm getting at. And totally right, you know. So I, I do, I love, I kind of love our dynamic. I, yeah, obviously I'm still here after over 2 years, so I do love our dynamic. And it's not been easy, right? And, um, and so, yeah, so that brings me to the point, kind of what you're getting at first, is, um, I think one of the things, and we've talked about this a lot, is we don't have kids. Yes. So I think that I would be meeting more people more quickly if we had kids, and I'm not going to have kids just to meet people here in Burke, right? So I'm trying—

I wouldn't recommend that. I mean, like, I recommend children. Children are great, but like, that's not the reason to have them, for sure.

Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So we're both kind of— we're kind of a bit older to be having— we— I'm saying that we have talked and like right now the plan is not to have kids. So we need to solve the problem of like getting me more involved without, you know, as someone who's the age that I'm at without any kids. And so I noticed it right away that it's, it's odd that I'm the age that I am and I don't have any kids. And what I will say is like where I'm from, it's extremely normal for someone my age to not be married, to not have kids. Right. And so I And I don't have any judgment on myself on that, but it's just something that here I am and I get to balance that. Yeah.

Well, I think culturally, I'm sure you felt that right away. I think we've— again, when I say we, I have actually physically been in community development. I work with my chamber gal. We talk about this a lot. Just how would somebody who doesn't have children— what does our community offer in the way of of socialization. So not recreation, not entertainment. We don't have to put fancy words around it. We're just literally talking about what does the social life look like of somebody that doesn't have children? And I think if all of our communities are honest about that, it's not something that comes as naturally or as easily, right? Yeah. And so I can totally see that being a massive challenge for you.

It's crazy hard. Yeah. And so my boyfriend has mentioned a particular bar that burned down. I think the year was 2017, and he actually brings it up quite frequently. And I tried to get to the bottom of this with him. Like, what was it about that bar that made you feel comfortable to, like, go there all the time? And he's not super— and he doesn't, like, drink a ton. He drinks maybe, like, every other month or something. So he's not super— it's not for the alcohol because there's plenty of bars still around. Sure. But there was one bar that he keeps bringing up that is like— because I kept saying, was it the— I'm thinking it's the business owner probably that infused the energy that was trapped. But no, he said no, it changed hands a number of times in his adult life.

And that's really fascinating.

Yeah, like what— yeah, what was it describing? The structure. Yeah, he's describing where people could sit, where you could go there and feel, um, apart if you wanted to, and you could also make a choice to be together with people. So there's something about the structure of the building that I think is worth talking about.

Um, So yeah, well, I just think that's super interesting because you're also touching on another big facet. Again, now we're kind of circling specifically around the Midwest, I think, to a degree, the cultural differences. But I also think urban and small town, your rural, is a difference here. Like, how common is it to be unmarried and without children? Those are cultural differences, I think. Drinking as a primary form of socialization is another thing to contend with, especially if that's not what you want to do or you don't find that enjoyable. We have those same conversations again here in my community when we're thinking about what kinds of events do we hold. Then that question becomes, does it always have to center around alcohol? And ideally it doesn't, because you really do alienate or kind of leave out a huge population of people. If everything that socialization involves, it always includes alcohol.

Yeah, I definitely feel— yeah, because I don't even drink that much myself either. And so, yeah, it's been hard for both of us, I think, to find that social— where do we go for a double date? We'll go out to a restaurant here and there. We'll make trips to town here and there. But it's like, yeah, there's definitely room in our lives for something. I'm not sure what, Yes.

So, so what things have you tried? Have there been like really specific things that you've tried in terms of like trying to show up in the community, trying to just talk to me, share whatever you want about that? Like, what have you tried?

Yeah, this is the fun part of the— I mean, the whole thing's fun, but this is what's really fun because I have to get so creative. And so the first thing I did was nothing. And I spent like basically the entire first year in the basement, which wasn't as terrible as it sounds because we actually renovated the basement. Now it's my beautiful home office because my, my day job right now is I work from home doing customer service for a company that I— it's an aerial acrobatics equipment company.

And so I'm still connected to the industry. That's awesome for you, Meredith.

Yeah. Yeah. So it actually is great. And but also that was hard to literally be in the basement for a year. And then I— and then it occurred to me to generate some ideas like what you're mentioning, which is like, how can I involve in the community. I'm trying to remember what came first, but I think the first thing that I did, well, was grow a garden. And then I thought, well, it's the first time I've ever grown anything other than a houseplant, and I couldn't even do that in California. Like, so there I was growing like food, right? Like, you know, and so I thought, what would motivate me to really grow this food and like learn to do it right? So I signed up to be vendor at the local Burke Area Farmers Market. Good for you. Yeah.

That's awesome.

Last year I sold over 13 pounds of kale and a couple other carrots, but my main thing was kale. And what's so funny about that is I had my tables usually just like kale, like beautiful, luscious green, like dark green, red, green kale. Right. And this one older woman came up to my table and she looks down at my kale and she looks up at me She looks down at the kale again, looks back up at me again. She goes, I'm from California. That's what she said to me. And I was like, me too. There's something about my kale that just exuded, which was kind of a beautiful, luscious, dark green, healthy food is something that I miss seeing a little more commonly in California.

Yeah.

So even when I go to the grocery stores here, especially certain times of the year, there's quite a lack in terms of the luscious green fresh stuff, right? Yeah.

It is a serious challenge for the Midwest. Yeah, you bet.

Yeah. I don't mean that as a hit, obviously.

No, I think it's just a reality. It really is.

Yeah, just a reality, right? So it was so funny to make a friend that way. Like, just there was my kale and I'm standing there and she just like, it resonated, right? And so, yeah, so I sold a bunch of kale and I showed up to almost all Uh, there was like 12 weeks or something, and I was there for almost every single one as a vendor, and just to, just to meet people and to do commerce. You know, I really, I'm kind of, um, spiritual about business. Like, I think that it, I think that it matters where we move our, where and how we move our energy, what kinds of agreements we make with each other, even if it's just for a moment. And, you know, the kinds of, um, Passing the sharing of value that we do in business is something I'm very passionate about. And so even though that was small scale, you know, I was operating mostly at a loss with selling just produce. I didn't have any like products or anything like that. So I, you know, I just came and I bring my coolers full of kale and I just, you know, get— and it was such a pleasure though to be able to produce something like that out of the earth, you know, and to have, you know, some exchange of value with that was really, really cool. And I met a handful of people, you know, I was able to kind of network. You know, I put my aerial acrobatics, um, business cards also on the table, and a couple people picked those up. And, um, so, you know, I'm kind of like trying to market myself at the same time doing the aerial acrobatics thing. And so, um, so there was that. And then the other thing I did, which was a big step, is I got a giant Bernese Mountain Dog, um, about a year and a half ago. And so I thought I thought, um, let's, you know, get him some training. So I, I called a woman and she came to our house for a training session with— he was a puppy, but she's also the president of canine— what do they call it— Prairie Dog Search, uh, Search and Rescue. So they do— they train dogs how to do search and rescue. And I thought, oh my God, I would love to do it. And she's actually pretty far. We have to drive to different locations. It could be like the— any— anywhere as close as Mitchell, and it could be as far as like Sioux Falls.

Yeah, so that's like other half of the state for people that aren't South Dakotans, right? I mean, really, that's almost all the way across the state, right?

Yeah, we were driving like 2 to 3 hours one way just to get to training, but the training would be for like 4 hours, so it wasn't a total loss. But we did— we did search and rescue training, and it was— so I guess it's not really like rooting me into Burke here, but to me Um, and I remember a podcast you had recently which was about, um, how the towns really see themselves as like the old— like if Burke, like Burke maybe thinks it's just Burke, you know, whereas when I say integrate myself where I live, I mean, I mean the whole state because—

and you should, Meredith, seriously.

Yeah, yeah. I don't feel like I can afford to commit only to Burke. I actually need Gregory, I need Dallas, I need Winner, I I need Sioux Falls, I need Rapid City, I need parts of Nebraska too. Like, that's just the bigness of my— that's right.

Yeah. So I want to, I want to pause there for just a second because, um, you know, and thank you for listening to previous episodes, that's awesome to hear. But I think, I think what, what is maybe hard for people that you're immediately doing life with now, like in Burke and kind of the surrounding areas, I think, I think it is hard to keep into any sort of perspective when, especially if we're from these places, right? So I literally talk about the fact that the state of North Dakota, um, and I don't know South Dakota's population off the top of my head, but North Dakota is just under 800,000 people across the state. You, you know, and you're laughing because, like, you came from a place where that many people plus, plus that was across a bridge.

Yeah.

San Francisco has— I mean, again, don't know the population of San Francisco. Yeah, right off the top, but it's more than double my entire state. So of the remote kind of nature of the Dakotas, both of them. And, you know, and that's kind of true for Montana and Wyoming and Nebraska and these, you know, our Midwest states. You can broaden out your reach a little bit and think about it because you— and actually, I think that's going to be really important for somebody like you that's from such a big place. And that's not— it shouldn't be viewed as strange at all. If it is, it this, this is again an opportunity for all of us kind of local people to, to broaden our way of thinking about it. Um, but that's all about perspective. And I guess I just, I find you so fascinating, like the way, the way you think about the world, the experience that you have. And I would love, I would love there to just be lots of pathways for you to show up. Um, and even into North Dakota, cuz you're not that far away from me. Like, I just think it's, it's kind of cool. I also wanna call out another thing that I think is really really unique and special. Um, the fact that you are actually working in your very niched-down industry remotely from your basement 8 miles outside of a town of 500 people— like, friends, if we are not again keeping our hearts and our minds open to the, to the idea of remote work and how, like, what kinds of opportunities there are for people, and, and like to welcome people with really varied backgrounds to still contribute the way that they can— I just think, I just think that's so— I mean, that's so cool. And what a gift to to have an opportunity like that so that you can stay really connected to this work that's such an integral part of who you are.

Yeah. And I'll share more about that too, because I feel, uh, it's very important to like say everything about that because, so when I first got here, I feel like the first impulse was to try to get a job. Job somewhere in town. Yeah. Um, in order to meet people, in order to integrate. And I, and I didn't because I didn't know. I, I couldn't find— I didn't— I'll be honest, I didn't look very hard because I— my job pays me pretty well. And, um, there was— it's, it's definitely not, um, let me find a way to say this. It's like, well, and I'll just say what my boyfriend was telling me, which is like, yeah, the rates around here are— I think minimum— what is minimum wage in South Dakota?

It's— oh, I don't know, but it's like not a lot.

It's not—

it's not a living— it's not a livable wage if that's your only income.

Yeah.

Yep.

How about that, right? And it's— yeah. And so even I'm taken care of financially, like living with my boyfriend, and so I could have still done it, but it's just like there's something, um, that I want to express to business owners, which is like I think it's time, it's time to like just realize. So here's, I'll just say the complaints that I hear a lot, and this is not from any one person. People don't wanna work is the statement that gets made all the time. Yes. Yes. People don't wanna work. Mm-hmm. You know, people don't wanna work. Right. And so the other thing is like, it's so hard to find help, which is the same complaint. Okay. But I really feel passionate about looking at that, right? Can we look at that though? Because it's like, and there's two things going on. It's one thing you can just like raise the pay rate and it's not easy. I'm not saying it's easy, but like, let's say, let's just say the rates were raised. Then there's the whole other piece of like, um, what is it like to show up to work at the, at the business that you own? On. Yeah, what is the— what is the energy like?

You know, you're getting into my background. I mean, this is the work that I do. I mean, it's, it's a huge deal, Meredith. And I, I, it's— I would never ever flippantly suggest that raising wages is easy. I would— or, or like, or like a magic bullet to anything, because, because you're right, this is a— it's a nuanced system or workforce, right? But I I think that's an element that everybody can and should look at, and it doesn't necessarily have to cost you any more money. Like, what kind of— what does it feel like to show up every day here? How do I feel when I leave here? And I mean, I'll just say it, one of my kind of fundamental beliefs about this whole conversation is that if we want our community, our culture in our community to become more welcoming, one of the fastest ways I think that we can do that is to step up our game as employers. Truly.

Yeah.

And it's not about necessarily paying them more, but, but just actually infusing your work, your workforce culture with some intentionality.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you're, you're asked, I think you're, you're calling out, um, difficult, they're difficult truths to discuss. I mean, that's absolutely true. And, uh, it doesn't, it's not, nobody's shaming anybody here. It's just literally, when was it? I like to just say, when was the last time you even thought about this, right? So maybe it's time. What would it look like to think about it?

This is what I want to say too, is like, um, with, with like, you know, the rate that employees get paid here is like, oh well, well, if a business— I'm gonna have a hypothetical conversation out loud here, this is totally made up in my head, but it's like— and I've been a business owner, so this is how I mean, I can relate to feeling like I can only pay this much with all the expense, whatever. It's like, it does not look to me like a business owner can afford not to reconsider how much they're paying people, especially when they can just get on indeed.com and get an online job and make, you know, hot high 5 or 6 figures, you know. Like, that is— it's— it can take someone a couple of days to secure an online job. And then, and then what I see that both— it's so— it saved my life. So I got my online job in August of 2020. I had already been through about, what is it, March, April, May, June, July, August, 5 months of the lockdown with zero income. And so I, I managed to make this connection and get, you know, score this job for myself. And it's, it's developed and bloomed from there. And I'm very grateful. And I've been able to move like 5 times across state lines and maintain basically, uh,, you know, a 5-day-a-week work schedule while, while in motion. So that's, that's a great thing. Um, I also see that as if everybody does that, we're going to lose our small towns. Absolutely we will.

Yeah, I do not disagree. Yeah, I don't disagree. And so it is, it's a really challenging workforce, is a challenging— the system of it right now, it is, it's, uh, it's complex. There's a lot of questions asked. But what I will just say about it, you know, to keep it simple, it's like we can't afford to not ask the question. Yeah, you know, we really can't afford to not challenge ourselves no matter what it is, if we're a business owner especially. And so I love local businesses. It's literally local businesses are what makes communities like mine thrive. And so when I say these things, it's always in the vein of wanting to help them be the absolute best they can be. It is never, ever, ever to shame or criticize them. And again, like, I think you and I both talked about this. It, we can have the best of intentions and people take it the way that they want. So yeah, um, definitely a challenge, but okay. So you're, you're, you're doing these really specific things to try to, um, you use the word integrate, which I think is great. It's, it's funny because I usually think about this topic of kind of community onboarding and community welcoming from the perspective of what a community should do better. And because I mean, I think listening to you, it sounds like you took some very active steps yourself, which is— that's asking a lot of a newcomer, you know. So I usually am thinking about it from the other vantage point. So that's why I'm so— I think this conversation is so refreshing. So what I mean, if— okay, like if you could say anything in terms of what you wish were available to you Mm-hmm.

Okay.

What, you know, like, what, what could that be, Meredith? Because you're— I, again, I think you seem like the kind of person, you're social, you're not afraid to take some social risks, because it is a social risk. I'm sorry, in a town of 500 people, and in my community of 1,800 people, um, there's, there's just a kind of a known social flow. Some people call them cliques, right? But people are socialized kind of in a— we're kind of entrenched in our socialization. And, and you have to be really thoughtful, both on the part of a community, if you're really thinking about these things, and then on the part of a newcomer to kind of break through that, to somehow show up differently in that. And I just think when people are flipping about this topic, I get kind of hot because it is tough. I, I can't— I'm from here and I still thought it was tough. Like find and navigate it as an adult, right? So what do you wish were there that's not?

A great question. Two things. So I'll start with the hot one first. So I do long for, like, a church that I could actually feel safe and connected in. Um, and yeah, I just said that, right?

So yeah, you did. Okay. And I let—

I let—

I waited, I waited, I waited it out. Um, so I have a follow-up to that. Is— I'm assuming there is a, a network of, of churches available in Burke, um, and the surrounding areas? Because I would imagine, you know, if you could find a church that felt like home to you, that felt kind of aligned with what you need and what you want, you would travel a little ways for it, I'm guessing.

Yeah.

So is it that kind of— is it just— does it feel too traditional? That's the word I'm choosing to use. Kind of in the belief systems versus— yeah, I don't want— because I don't want to label it. I'm just asking, is there kind of a rigidity or a formality to the structure of what you're, what you're seeing?

I, I value tradition, right? And tradition, the word means different things to different people. And people may view me as like radically like progressive, but I'm not. I am actually not. I'm staunchly independent. And I think that my beliefs would continue to surprise most average people. And so with churches that exist here, um, it's not like I've gone to all of them either, right? Like, if I'm honest, um, and I, I don't really know how to say, like, what I feel won't work for me without, without, you know, upsetting some people maybe. But, um, yeah, I, I I don't know what I would need here spiritually. I do and I don't, but I can tell you it doesn't exist here yet. Right. That's what I know for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So here's— I'm going to challenge you to just think about something.

Help me out here. Yeah.

What would it look like if you were the one that started it?

I want to. I really want to, but then I'm afraid that I'm going to upset more people, and I don't want to upset anybody. But I also feel really passionate about my beliefs, and I want to share what I think I know. And it's like, yeah, why not? Or what if it's just a meditation center?

Well, so here's the thing to think about, Meredith, and this will just be something for you to noodle on after we stop talking here. But I think that is such a fundamental need in a person person's journey, especially if they have a connection to spirituality. And I'm just gonna call it spirituality, not religion. I mean, yeah, people can do what they want with that, but I think it's, it's not uncommon to me at all that kind of the traditional church, churches that exist as they do today in any community, really big, small, otherwise, might not feel quite right for people. Right. So then, so then that's the way to think about this is simply this, like, what conversations do you want to be having? If we're talking spirituality, then that's the question. Related to spirituality? What conversations do you want to be having? And who, you know, what, what would it look like for you to just host, like, create an open invitation? Where, where could that be held? Where, because again, we're talking about something that's very important to me, and I think is challenging to find sometimes in smaller communities, is that true sense of psychological safety, where, where you know that, that you can actually fully express ideas and thoughts without any risk of judgment or or, you know, it's just, it's, it can be tough. But I think everybody that's wired to want that can actually lead that. And so that's the question. I mean, I'll, you know, and you and I after this, obviously we can stay connected and talk through ideas about it. But I mean, that's, is there like a one simple way to start? Maybe is to, to choose a book that you, that's kind of representative of what, what faith and spirituality feels like to you, and then have that be something that you read together and then just most informal, casual get-togethers where you're discussing that.

That sounds awesome. Yeah, I miss— I'll tell you too, like, the, the kinds of spiritual centers that I miss from, like, California growing up, like, before 2020. Um, they always— what I liked about them is that they always had, um, people represented from different religions. Actually, you would have Christians in the space, you would have Buddhists in the And, you know, it's the kinds of spaces where people could feel— come from anywhere and all collect around the core truths of the super— the core truths. Yeah, I'll just stop there.

And yeah, no, I— this— but this is— I mean, this is a really challenging topic, I think, for rural— for rural places in general and small towns in general, because I would love our community to be a place where everybody would feel welcome. And you know what? I know that that's just not true today. It's not true today. And that's not because my community is doing anything wrong at all. It's not. It's just there's not a lot of diversity of many types in our community. I mean, religious diversity especially. Like, there's a lot of Christian churches. We don't have a Buddhist temple. We don't have shrines. We don't have, you know, I mean, there's all sorts of religions that are not represented here. And so, and I'm also just, again, anybody that's feeling hot about this, especially if you're a community development person, I also don't expect that that's what we need to do is start erecting full structures. But I think the starting point could be something like what we're talking about. Yeah. You know, I mean, somebody, somebody, I think, I think sometimes what's missing is anybody just raising their hand and saying, you know, hey, I really want to have this conversation. Here's a book that's going to help us. We're going to explore it, and all faith perspectives are welcome. Like, then you just say it, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And who knows who might show up? And in your case, again, you're, you're marketing this— or when I say marketing it, I simply mean communicating it, right? You're communicating it out to as many and broad of a community as, as you need to from a radius standpoint. Like, I don't know how many towns around you you need to kind of make sure you're inviting, but that invitation is what's often missing.

Missing.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's hard. I, I hate the truth that if you need it, you might have to be the one to raise your hand and do it.

But I think what's so great about these small towns, I really, I recognize how much space I actually have to go first. And be weird. And yeah, because I'm weird. Oh, I'm more free. I'm a little more free maybe than someone who's from here who may feel, you know, like there's different attachments that prevent them from going first. And I— oh my goodness, 100%.

Yeah, 100%. And I— this is a core part of what I talk about is like, I do sometimes think that we have to create the space that we need in order to love the place that we're living more. And again, I hate that we have to burden the newcomer with that. But instead, what if we looked at it as an opportunity? If you're saying, if this is what you need, what would it look like for you to offer it and go slow and go small? It doesn't have to be— you don't have to like, build a temple, right? That's not like— where's a local place that you could gather and just try it out? And the other thing too, Meredith, is you just never know who you're going to attract by simply standing up and raising your hand, kind of metaphorically, and saying, yeah, this is what I really want to do, and all are welcome. And your background, your faith background doesn't matter. I mean, just to say those kinds of things, you just never know who also has that kind of yearning thing on their heart, and they're going to feel so seen and so needed by you raising your hand and saying that you're offering it. Yeah.

So then the second thing to also answer the question, what I wish was here that doesn't appear to currently be here, and this is something that I actually think I can uniquely help with, and I would love to talk with you more later about this, is So this is not any one thing, but like customer service, I'm really passionate about it and I'm very experienced with it. And, um, so your last podcast was about love and, you know, infusing the communities with love. And I really wanna do that. And I, when I first got here, I did that a lot and I since do it now way less because I've shown up to businesses as a customer. And there have been times where I was treated in a way that I feel honestly is like so far beneath a bottom line for where, for where customer service should be in any place. And I feel like in small towns, wouldn't it be great if we all got together and decided on how people should be treated as a base minimum, you know? And then also working in ways to elevate customer experience because people, whether they're from here or not, human beings are not going to come to your business and do business regularly if they are, for example, if it's like a cafe and a customer comes in and is actively being ignored because the two employees are talking to each other for 45 seconds. Yeah, that's— there's no line and a customer approach. So that— I'm saying that because that happened to me, right?

And so that's a nonstarter for any business.

Yeah. I haven't been back to this particular cafe because it's like, really, you guys are going to sit there and talk to each other for— and I have a watch and I'm very sensitive because here's the thing too. I'm not like— like we all know I'm not from here. I don't know who knows what about me or who's thought what up about me. And it could either be them just ignoring me because they're not on their game right now, or it's a— it could be personal. And I don't know. I actually don't know.

Nor should you as a customer in any regard have to, have to hold that in your brain, right? Yeah. It's, it's interesting because I think you're also touching on something that can get away from us in smaller communities if we're not careful. This is actually where I think this sense of like, oh, well, we all know each other becomes truly dysfunctional. And that's I'm going to say this, and so you don't have to. But I think sometimes we end up accepting a level of service or behavior that is actually far less than what should be acceptable at all, just because we're like, oh, well, that's just how Shirley is, for example. Right. And we dismiss it because we just know. Yeah, that's— but other people that don't know Shirley shouldn't have to navigate that mentally. Like, it actually— that's just— it's actually just not acceptable. I get really hot about this too. And when I say hot, I mean passionate. Because yeah, again, in our small communities, like, every, every human that walks through your door deserves the best of you.

A celebration.

Honestly, like, like, you— we, we can't— we can't— again, it's kind of a we can't afford to to be flippant or not really on our game. That's not something that we can afford to do.

Yeah.

Because again, how much are we standing in our own way in small places? And I just always want to encourage people to think differently about these things. And I think that's really important.

Yeah. After that happened, I went through several days of kind of agony around what do I do? Should I call the owner of this business? Should I write a Google review? You know, I'm just like, how do I communicate what just happened and find that special way to like— because I really, at the end of the day, I want to lift people up. I'm not even personally angry about what happened, but I do see it as an egregious violation. And in a small town where they're serving one of the small towns, but people do come to this place from the other towns. It's a beloved space and I think they'll do well across time. I'm not worried about them going out of business or anything, but it's like, what if you could do more? What if you could be more? You know, what if you could— right? Don't you like— to me, I'm like, it's not like an obsession with maximizing for the sake of itself. But I do think that people, you know, we need, we need the small touchpoints of inspiration, even if it's just going to the local coffee shop and getting that cup of coffee. What, it takes me 5 minutes or whatever, ideally, if I'm not being ignored. Hard, right? But, but then I, I get to have that experience. I get to see a human face. I get to exchange commerce and exchange value, you know. To me, I do try to spread my love. I'm always tipping over a dollar on everything I get from the cafe, even though it's well over 20% most of the time, you know. It's like I'm really trying to share my love with the businesses. And the way— when I get stopped cold like that, it really— I really spend days like on it. Like, and so I was wondering, like, I'm like, how can I share what I know about about Customer Service 101 and then 102 and then 103, you know, like, because I know a lot about customer service, but I don't have a business built around me yet to serve people. But I wonder if I should, like, maybe that could be something that I do.

Well, that's, you know, that's definitely an interesting thing to consider. Um, and believe me, I've thought about that a bunch of times, like, just, oh, just how important every frontline person of every business actually is, because they're creating small moments of connection or disconnection all day long. That's what they're doing.

Never neither. It's always one or the other.

That's right. You're either connecting to the humanity of the person standing in front of you or you're disconnecting from it.

Yeah.

Right. And so I think as I listen to that, I I think that your inclination to connect with the business owner is a good impulse, um, because I think you would be very thoughtful in how you share what happened. And because, I mean, anybody could leave. I mean, this is like, this day and age, my goodness, you could really be hateful, do you know what I mean? And I think that's— we live in a time where that's really common, like people get they get treated less than what they think they should and they go ballistic on social media or whatever, you know what I mean? That there's no intention of actually making that business be better.

It's just—

it's just to— it's just— oh, then that's also— I think we also need to remember that running a business in this day and age is— that's something that can make it really hard because sometimes your good intentions don't even land the way you want them to.. But I think sharing that, being thoughtful about what you really are trying to communicate, that you really are coming at it from a perspective or vantage point of wanting to help them be better. I think direct communication is the reason I—

Yeah, and sorry to cut you off, but the reason I don't is because I'm from California. I don't know if I can cuss this podcast, but I'm that bitch from California, you know what I mean? So I don't ever try to correct anybody from here because I know probably that it will come across as I'm just this psycho from California. Like, yeah, I hate that.

I hate the idea of that.

Yeah, but it's true, right?

Of course it is. Yeah, of course it is. And that's put such— again, it's such an extra burden on you. As a newcomer?

Yeah, what I'm doing instead is waiting for the right moment. If I create a business that is customer service consultation services for small businesses, something like that, and find a way to market it, and people actually call me up and sign up on my calendar to be coached, that's when I'll say what I have to say about customer service and how do we set a baseline and, you know, all that kind of thing. That's— I'm just waiting. Like, I'm learning one thing that I really value about living in the, in the rural Midwest is I am actually learning patience for the first time in my whole life. Yeah. Beautiful, right? Yeah.

Well, I love that. Um, you've come to the right place if you— because things don't happen quickly. Like, they just, they just don't. And that's okay. Um, I just think the other thing with this too, and a place to start with this, could almost be similar to the conversation we had about religion, frankly. Like, is there, is there currently a mechanism that brings your local businesses together?

No. Yeah, I would love that.

So I mean, that could be the way to start. Like, what would it look like?

A conference?

Yeah, well, maybe it is. Maybe it's a one-day summit or it's a start with a lunch hour.

Yeah.

And just say like, we're going to come together with the goal of lifting each other up, supporting each other, and being a friendlier place to run a business. Like, maybe that's it, right? So people like more people could start, more people could be more successful. Like, I don't know. I mean, there's chambers of commerce. Commerce exist for a reason. Small towns a lot of times don't have them. Um, but just what would a low-key, informal, casual gathering of business owners look like? Yeah, and that's the other thing too. I appreciate, I appreciate the reason. Like, if you don't have an actual personal connection with that business owner, it probably wouldn't work to reach out to them and just be like, hey, I casually, you know, like, they don't— the trust isn't Right, right. You know, because a phrase that I've heard and I totally agree with is that innovation happens at the speed of trust. And innovation is just like the adoption of anything new, right? Like, we don't, we don't change things until we feel safe enough and trusting enough to do so. So I think maybe that's a something that you could, you can bring to this community is just an open container for some of these conversations to be had.

I would love that. And what I want to add too is like this actually, like customer service values, actually I don't consider as innovation. I actually consider that as a reaching back to the fundamental values that these areas were founded upon. I think that, you know, sir, ma'am, like this kind of respectful opening doors. Oh my God, I have not touched a door since I got to South Dakota because there seems to always be a man. You know what I mean? There's always a man just opening the door. And he's— I'm not doing business with him, but there's a service to that. Service comes from these heart-centered places. There is so much heart and soul in the history of this area, and I can feel it. And so I feel sad, and my boyfriend has shared with me he feels sad too. He's been alive during the time when, you know, this place used to be about service to each other, being there for each other, and it appears like now there's less of that. And so I'm asking people not to innovate at all. Actually, I don't even use social media, by the way. I think that's an important point about me. I'm religiously not using social media. I religiously feel strongly about the community boards. If we want to market the community boards and word of mouth and that type of stuff. And customer service is an old technology that we were, you know, Right. More, but I'm born with, right?

But I, what I will say is that it's innovating to them if they're not doing it, you know? I mean, really, it's like, it's changing, it's changing. I think change, maybe that's a better way to put it. Like change only happens at, at the speed of trust. People, nothing changes if people don't accept it, take it on and do it right. And that's, that goes back to old school, just relationship building. Building out that social fabric, that social network. And I mean, I just, as I listen to you and we're— I can't— we've been talking for such a long time already. It's just fascinating. But I think a lot about how I want my community to be the kind of place that attracts people like you.

Yeah. Thank you.

Full stop. Somebody who's generous and thoughtful. You show up very beautifully in the world, Meredith. You do.

Thank you.

And I think I, I talked to a lot of people, um, and I've, I've visited with a lot of people that were transplants and ended up leaving their community because they couldn't ever kind of find their way in. And I, by that I simply mean they never, they never felt like they could just kind of build enough of those social connections to make them feel like they belonged there. And, and that's a risk that we run with every new person that comes to our community, right? And that's why I said for me, I just, I, when new people come and I'm aware of them, I, I do think about that. Like, where are they, you know, who are they connecting with? What are they, what are they care, what do they care about? What do they love? Like, how do we help them? And then again, I think it's also recognizing that our communities, we have to make room for somebody like you to offer and create an invitation for something that you need that doesn't exist.

Mm-hmm.

And, and all of these things touch on the fear of change. And it doesn't— not all communities are afraid of change, but most of us like to do what we're comfortable with. I mean, that's a natural human thing, right? So all of that is simply a challenge to how do we make room? How do we make more room in our communities?

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question, and I would love to be part of the solution. You know, I, it's great to like, full disclosure, it's like I've been living here for over 2 years. It doesn't mean I'll stay, you know. And I think when I reached out to you, I was in a moment of panic of feeling like, um, you know, faced with more challenges than, um, yeah, not, not a lot of security. And I mean social security. It really comes down to the social security that we feel with each other. That absolutely, that's why, that's why I left. That's why I left where I was born. You know, I had been living there for 33 years when I— you know, I've traveled a lot and I've, you know, I did live in different places, but it's like Marin County was my home of 33 years. And I never— before the day I left, I mean, I think I gave myself 4 days notice before I was out of there because I knew if I waited, I wouldn't have been able to leave. I was so attached to what— to what it was really, and it's not— that's not what it is now. And But it's because the social breaks, so much destruction. And so if I don't find enough of a sense of purpose here, right? I don't know. I mean, I am in a relationship with a great guy, and that's a huge blessing. And is that enough to keep a whole person living somewhere where they feel otherwise totally disassociated? I don't know. I don't know. And so I'm talking to you in the middle of this story and it's really awesome. But well, it's really cool to kind of have the snapshot.

But yeah, I can't thank you enough for being willing to share it because this is reality. I mean, again, I no longer do our local economic development work specifically, right? That's not my role anymore. And yet as a person that lives here, and has had to do very specific things to find my own social network that feels like me. I've had to curate it. I mean, and it does— it takes a lot of effort, Meredith. It's not for the faint of heart, right? And I always will think like, okay, communities, how can we do this better? Because not everyone's going to be for us. And we, at this point in this story where you're at right now, we don't know if you and Burke are meant to be together forever. It sounds like Burke's a person. Paula Jensen. But honestly, we are in relationship with the communities that we live in. We are. This is an actual truth of life. And I'm not sitting here in my little town telling your little town to be better, to do better, to be different, to be anything. But I will always challenge everybody and encourage everybody to ask, but what if we could be? And what can we do? Because I do think this is an everybody thing. Like, this— you're just brave enough to, like, let us all the way into your story. But you— your story represents the story of lots of people. I know it. I've talked to them. I've heard stories. And I, I really am so grateful, Meredith, that you reached out to me, that you were willing to have this conversation. Um, and I, I have no doubt that everything that we've talked about here, you're actually going to go back and try some of it because, oh yeah, yeah, you're wired for action. I can see that in you, and I could hear it in the way you show up in the world. And yeah, I'm just— thank you so much for the time that you spent with us today and for being brave to—

thank you—

to own your story. You shared with me before we hit record, and I— oh, I feel like I could get emotional actually talking about this. What you said was, um, I just really want to share my lived experience. Yeah. And lived experience is something that it cannot be replaced by data points or metrics or other research or trends or all the stuff that we think we need to make sound decisions as a community. To me, lived experience, the lived experience of humans doing life with us, that's what I want to listen to. It's what I want to center my work around, because you're a human. And really, this is— it's all about love. It's about love of community, love of place, people, the connection that you have with other people. It's about love. That's about love. That's what humanity is about in my in my opinion. So thank you for sharing your lived experience with us.

My absolute pleasure. And yeah, I'd love to be available for people to reach out to me.

Well, you know what? Again, you said you don't really do socials, but we will get whatever mechanism you have for wanting people to connect with you. We will link to all of it in the show notes. So you'll be able to tell us exactly how you want people to connect with you. I, I'm telling you, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people that reached out to you after listening to this, because, um, feeling, feeling that sense of, um, isolation and loneliness, even like you are in a committed relationship with a person, right? Like you actually have a, a partner that you're doing life with right now. Um, and like you said, is that enough? It's a wholehearted, holistic way of being. That's— it's not right. You need other connections, other social fabric. And I just know that this is something a lot of people struggle with. And I just, again, I can't thank you enough. It was so great to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for your excitement about me. I really appreciate it. I felt pretty invisible for quite a few years now, to include up to the moment where California said, from the moment California said, you know, you're not essential, up until, you know, just a couple of days ago, I just have felt largely invisible and struggling, you know. And I know I'm not invisible, so I'm pushing back. And, um, but it's not that easy. And I really appreciate this moment to kind of— I feel a bit like all the work I did, all the self-care I did, all the just being there for myself that I've been doing is paying off. And I really appreciate that. And I'm really excited to— I love solutions. And your podcast is all about solutions. And I don't even care what the problems are. Let's get to the solutions. I'm so there with you.

Try, right? There's always— that's just it. If anybody's listening to this and they're feeling like you're feeling, honestly, just remember that there's always something that we can try. And it's— I love that you brought up self-care. We brought up mental health a little bit, stress management. Um, if and when anybody listening to this hits that moment where they feel like they've, they've arrived at the decision that where they're at is just not meant for them, you literally had that happen in your hometown. How heartbreaking, honestly, right? And just gut-wrenching, like, okay, this is it. All of those decisions can be okay. And I will always say that for people. I think maybe the place to leave it is that every single human is essential. We need every single one of you. And I think the more that we can acknowledge that people deserve to live in a place where they feel fully seen and fully embraced, and if every single one of us spent more time going, well, what's my role in making that happen? Just think about how much could shift if we all showed up like that. And you are showing up like that, Meredith. So again, appreciate you. And hopefully we'll have you back sometime for an update on where we're at. Thank you again.

I'd love to share too the speech I recently gave. I wonder if that could be shared.

You bet we can share that. Yeah, because that's something I watched in prep for for this. Yeah, for sure. We can link to that as well.

Cool. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll see. I'm sure we'll have you— I'm sure we'll have you back.

Thank you so much.

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