S5:E13 - The Fight for Public Education with Erin Oban

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Erin Oban. Erin is a former North Dakota state senator for District 35, and she joins us today to talk about a really important bill that hit our, our North Dakota's legislature. It was House Bill 1540, which is it It was proposing what's traditionally thought of as a voucher system for public education or for education. We talk about it a little bit. Sometimes they're considered education savings accounts, but essentially it's the bill was on the floor. It was proposed that some of our public funding could go to fund the education of students that would choose private schools or homeschooling programs. And she has, as a staunch, she's just, She has staunchly been opposed to this, to the idea of public funding being deferred in this way. Again, not even just from her perspective as a senator, former senator, but also as a teacher. She shares a bit of her background. And this conversation, the reason I asked Erin, this is obviously, this conversation is central to North Dakota, my home state where I'm at right now. But we cover, we have a really beautiful conversation where we talk a lot about how she got involved in politics in such a massive way. I mean, honestly, running State Senate's not a small thing, right? And I think a lot of us in our small communities, we're wondering how to get more people engaged even in local politics, like hyper-local politics, city councils, economic developments, maybe running for mayor, uh, county commission, those kinds of things. So of course I think it's fascinating to find out how somebody who had no political background chose to get involved in that way. Um, you're also gonna hear us talk about both of our perspectives really on the value of public education and why it matters so much in rural communities. And I am happy to share, so we were, we were, we recorded this episode before our governor, Governor Armstrong, had made a decision on the bill. It was on his desk at the day, of the day that we recorded. Since then, I will give you the update that he actually did veto the bill, and the House voted to sustain his veto. And so for now, until the next legislative session, which in North Dakota we go every 2 years, this bill has been killed on the floor, which is It's an exciting thing. I guess I shouldn't say on the floor, right? He vetoed it and then they upheld it. But we— this bill, we'll have to keep thinking about it. And I just, I thought it was an interesting thing for us to consider again as we think about rural communities, small towns specifically. Schools are the heartbeat of a small town. And so I hope you enjoy this conversation about public schools, the value of running for political office, and just Honestly, you'll hear at the end the value of caring a whole awful lot about the places that we call home. Enjoy this conversation with Erin Oban. It's my favorite lobbyist in North Dakota.

Welcome. I can't believe I'm wearing that badge now.

Oh, well, again, I want to make you t-shirts. I want to make t-shirts with your lobbyist number on it. I'm just kidding. That's not like all you are, quite clearly, but I wanted to see your face when I said that.

I love it.

Yeah, welcome to the show, Erin Oban. Super happy to have you here.

Great to see you.

Yeah, so you, uh, you and I haven't known each other all that long, just a couple of years, um, and we were just talking before we hit record that I didn't actually know you while you actively served in our legislature here in North Dakota, um, and so now you're officially not in that role, um, and the last time I I saw you in person. I was at the Capitol in Bismarck for, um, for celebrating Women in Business, which was a great day, great event. Um, and you were, you were actually, you were at the Capitol that day to officially register yourself as a lobbyist. And that's what we're here to talk about. Not just, not just that kind of level of activism, which, although I think we can talk about that a little bit because that's, there's such a power in your choice to do that, right? You're using your voice, you're fighting for things in, um, pushing for things you care about, all that's great. But we're here to talk about a specific bill. And I— the reason I was like, you and I just talked the other day, the reason I was like, we should talk about this on the show is just because it's related to public schools. And schools are such a critical piece of community, strong communities for most of our audience, right? If anybody's living in a rural or small town at all, I mean, it's like, it's a big, big deal.

It's usually the cornerstone, really, of a— especially in rural communities. And I can certainly say that as a, as a girl who grew up in a town of 600 people at the time, right? I will never forget what, what that school building, those school teachers, my classmates, that space and the activities that surround it was to My hometown.

Do we want to give a shout out to your hometown?

I'm a Ray Jay. I'm from the northwest corner of North Dakota, daughter of a farm family. Yep, grew up in town. So they were, they were town folk, but—

Oh, I love that. I'm town folk now.

In the heart of oil country, really. So there was a lot of activity between agriculture and energy development. In and around my, my home area.

Yeah, that's great. I love, I, I love that. And I think that's, that's, that's why I— well, it's not the only reason I think that I felt such an immediate connection with you. You're just good people, Erin. I mean, frankly, like, you're, you're a great, great human. Um, okay, so maybe before we get into the specifics of the bill, do you want to share a little bit about your, about your experience in the legislature? And again, how much or how little you want to share, of course. If I have questions, I'll ask them.

So, well, actually, I, I often share a little bit my background when I'm talking about why I got active in this issue. Please, please do. Because it provides me with kind of maybe a unique perspective on what vouchers or education savings accounts— sometimes it's called school choice. So we'll get into all of that in a little bit. But yeah, I grew up as a Class B kid in a small rural town going to the same school building, one school building for K through 12. Yeah.

What was the school's enrollment in a town of 600? What was it like?

Oh gosh, I was a, you know, part of the largest graduating class at the time. We had 27 kids in our class.

That's—

it was big.

That's— it was big at the time.

And actually, yeah, the town has grown a lot now, um, sure, throughout the last oil boom. Um, but so I, you know, graduated from the same school that my parents did, um, ended up leaving to go to college, moved to Bismarck, graduated from a private university that we chose, you know, my family, I chose to attend. Um, and then I became a teacher right out of college. I was a 7th and 8th grade math teacher.

This— see, okay, I love this because you and I, we were just talking, we've never like sat down and shared wine where I— all of you, all of the juicy background that I'm hearing now I would have heard. So I love— some of this is brand new to me too, so I love it. I had no idea you were a teacher.

Yeah, and so that, that first teaching job I ever got out of college, um, was, was at a private school here in Bismarck. Um, so that, that contributes to my perspective on this. Um, after 4 years of teaching, um, I already felt that tinge of burnout, and I, I don't know if I just realized fairly early in life, like, that I want to give my best self to the people that I'm that I'm with. And I feel like kids deserve, you know, the best teachers. And I felt like I needed a little break. I assumed it would just be a break from teaching, and it turned into like a whole different career path, which has been weird. But I— so I left the classroom and kind of got a little bit into politics and government, which was not how I grew up. Like, I did not grow up in a politically active family. I would not have any idea what my parents were in terms of partisanship. What I saw from my parents is they were just very active members of their community serving on, you know, church council, school board, hospital board, elevator board, right? All of the things that make community, I saw my parents doing. So clearly had an impact on, on me in ways I didn't realize at the time.

They instilled in you a heart for service, I think. I mean, I think that's what that does, right? Like, and your service ended up looking different than what you'd been shown. But there's still— and that's— I, I'm, I'm so— I'm even more fascinated now to continue to hear, because the idea that you got into politics— I think, I think another overarching tone for this, I hope, um, as our listeners are listening to us, again, what we're going to be talking about specifically is this bill related to school choice, um, and, and just why we're, we're both opposed to it, um, you know. But I think the other, the other big tone that here that's so, so important is um, all the people that might be listening to this, Erin, that have that— they've had that thought in the back of their minds to like run for local office, or, or, you know, like, I— it bothers me that in the history of my little town we've never had a female mayor. Like, that bothers me. And people might, you know, again, I don't know if—

I don't know that Bismarck has either.

I mean, that's— I mean, that's wild to me, right? And so it's, it's not that I need a woman to feel like things are balanced. Like, I'm not crazy about this, but I just think I question sometimes where are the women stepping into these things? Now, I have not run for local office. I've done a lot of things locally, but I just wonder, right? And so as you tell the story, I mean, I may ask some extra questions about that just because if we can encourage particularly more women and men, young people, all people to step up into these roles, right? It's super important. So I just thought I would lay that in there too as you're telling us. You get out of teaching and you said you got into politics. What did getting into politics look like for you?

Well, weirdly enough, so I had developed maybe an interest in what it is like. I didn't know what parties stood for. I really didn't. And as I started getting older, I kind of started— I was more drawn to people who I felt like represented what I thought should be a good elected official. So I would volunteer, you know, to stuff mailings, like really behind-the-scenes stuff, walk in a parade, eat way too many Tootsie Rolls, frankly. And I, after I left, after I left the classroom, I had already developed a relationship with somebody who was working in then Congressman Pomeroy's. So, okay, but one, you know, one congressional district, we have one congressman. She was working in Congressman Pomeroy's office and she was going to retire. And she said, you know, maybe this is something you would want to do is work in the Bismarck office. And this was so beyond my— so she brought me to coffee. I'm sitting literally at Perkins in a booth with my congressman. And he, unbeknownst to me, is sort of interviewing me for this job. And basically said, do you, do you want to come work in my Bismarck office? And I said, I'm a teacher. Like, why, why would you hire a teacher? I don't have any background in government or politics. And he said, yeah, you're a teacher. You can handle a lot of things that are thrown at you at one time, and you're good with people. That's, that's what I'm looking for.

Oh my gosh. Okay, can we pause for one quick second? I want to make another— like, to me, it's like a very clear observation. So this is to— for all the women that have stepped away from the workforce to raise children. I want, I want every single one of them to hear what you just said, because I sometimes think that we have this feeling that when, if we step away from the workforce for a period of time and we raise children, um, I didn't, I didn't make that choice. I've always had my foot in the workforce, right? But that's a lot of, a lot of brilliant women choose, choose differently. I want them, I want everybody to hear that, like, what he hired you on wasn't the specific, like, work experience. It was that he knew because of your work experience you could handle a lot of things. Yeah, I don't know who handles a lot of things thrown at them at once more than mothers. So, so again, I think it's— I think there's something very, very cool about even hearing this background. And again, we're here to talk about a specific bill, but this is valuable, Erin.

And like, you found yourself in something that wasn't, and you let your interest guide you, which, oh my goodness, there's never been a cooler —like, not be afraid to try something and realize that it may or may not turn into something long-term. In this case, it ended up being way more short-term than I anticipated. So Congressman Pomeroy had been serving in the— in Congress for like 16 or 18 years, and he ended up losing his reelection campaign 2 years after I started working in his office. And that was my first introduction to not only public service through kind of the political lens, but also how disruptive it can be to your life, to your paycheck. Yeah, right. So yeah, it was very interesting. I then ended up working on a campaign. And again, just for somebody who I thought was— his name was Ryan Taylor. He ran for governor. I knew what the chances of Ryan Taylor being elected governor were in the state of North Dakota. But he is to his core one of the best human beings I've ever met. He, he believes in this state. He, you know, cares deeply about people. He was always someone who was not afraid to have a difficult conversation. He was not— he was never trying to surround himself just with people who agreed with him and just had a lot of respect for that. And, and then I ended up being asked to run for the state Senate in in my district in Bismarck. Again, I would have imagined myself as working for people behind the scenes, for other people who are willing to step into that spot and really be vulnerable and put themselves out there. And I did not feel like that would ever be me. And honestly, once I, once I was asked and I said no a number of times, It was just explained to me, Erin, we want somebody who's engaged in their community, who has shown people who they are, not because of some partisan label. Like, we don't care if you've been to a million meetings of XYZ party or not. You are engaged in your community. You have shown people that you care. And that's the kind of person we want to run. That's awesome. That's really awesome. I only said yes after I really accepted that I could very well lose. Like, losing was— I didn't even like to lose when I played volleyball, and I was not even a great volleyball player.

Well, yeah, having a little competitive streak, it's— yeah, that doesn't ever really go away. It kind of seeps into everything we do, I think.

So once I accepted that that could very well be the outcome, um, I, I said yes and, uh, threw myself into it. Worked really, really hard, which I needed to do. And I needed to prove myself to my community that I was doing this for the right reasons and see if I could get them to feel like they could trust me in that position to represent them in the course of like a 2.5-minute conversation at their door.

Did you do— did you have any particular approaches? And again, I'm not going to call them tactics because you're talking about actually building real relationships and trust. Trust is not built quickly. That's, that's what makes the entire prospect of doing what you did, like campaigning for the trust of people, like super— I, it would be so challenging to me, and I'm really a people person. Was there anything that you found that you did that was like, that felt really effective and that maybe was different, or, or was it just literally one person at a time?

So let me tell you, I, I surrounded myself with a few people who really knew how to do this, like who know how to run campaigns and committed to just being my authentic self. Because at the end of the day, that's what I was going to be left with, whether I won or lost. And I wanted to make sure that if people were entrusting me with that position, and to elect me to serve them in the legislature, that I wasn't bullshitting them on who I was. Right, right.

So literally they would know exactly what they were going to get.

The only piece of advice I didn't really take from those folks who know how to do this was, you know, it's supposed to be very quick. Like, you knock on the door, you introduce yourself, You want them to remember your name and your face. And I knew that I had some challenges I needed to overcome, which meant I just had longer conversations. Sometimes I would be sitting on the step of their front, you know, at the front of their house for an hour, which would not be advised. Yeah, I'm sure. For anybody who's trying to efficiently get through this, I started really early to make sure I could get to as many people as humanly possible. I really, I felt like that made the difference.

I, I mean, again, I, without any analytics or data points to back this up, I'm going to throw my perspective in there that I, I think that's undoubtedly something that helped you.

And I refuse to say, I refuse to say things, um, in a short-term conversation to win an election that I don't believe. So if, if they, if they've expressed a something that was very much not aligned with where I was, making clear that I'm open to, to being challenged. I'm open to having my own opinions proven wrong. I'm very much open to people who have facts and the experts on issues that I'm not the expert on. Teach me. But if this is what you care the most about and I am just really, really not aligned with you, I probably won't represent you well on this issue and you shouldn't vote for me. Right.

Yeah.

If you care about other things, you know, where, where we can find some, some common ground and, and you trust that this is how I will go about making my decisions, then great. But let's just spare us both the time. If you don't, if you don't think this is going to work out for both of us, then don't vote for me. That's okay. I'm not going to win them all.

Right. Well, I think that's, and that's actually, I mean, if politics felt and sounded and kind of looked more like that, I maybe wouldn't feel such a resistance to them and to the political landscape in general. Because I think that's exactly it, right? Well, A, I don't think many of us push that hard for common ground to begin with. I mean, I just think we get really entrenched in our perspectives. And I have come to really feel over the last, I don't know, handful of years that one of the scariest— to me, one of the scariest characteristics of a person is certainty.

Isn't that a good— absolutely.

For me, again, I'm just like, how can you be so certain about this thing? And, and when— and if people are, if they're— especially if it's, uh, you know, like an issue where maybe you're just like, if this is truly a hot button issue for you and this is one of the most important things that you look for in a representative, I can't and won't represent you well, right? Because sometimes the truth is you're not— there's not any common ground to be found. And it all comes down to it's not just the issues, it's the severity of the certainty and the belief in it. The level of conviction maybe is the way to put it. But yeah, I think that's so great. I can see—

It's also recognizing that we all come into everything with some of that. Tons. Tons. Like, recognizing your own bias is okay. It's not a negative thing. Knowing just knowing that about yourself and seeing, you know, are there ways to be more open? Um, yes.

I think it's fascinating, um, because I often question— like, I actually just said yesterday to somebody else, like, one of my favorite feelings in the world is when my mind gets changed about something. Like, I actually relish those conversations where somebody— whether it's new data points or they share something— it's sometimes it's even lived experience. I'll be honest, I can be— I can have my deeply tightly held thing kind of soften because of that. Right. But what I hate so much in today's political landscape is that that's kind of seen as a sign of weakness and that you're fickle or flighty.

Yeah. You sway in the wind, whichever way the wind is blowing. Right.

And I'm just like, or you just refuse to be so certain And you allow yourself— Adam Grant, I don't know if you've ever read anything or heard anything by Adam Grant. He's an organizational psychologist. He's really— he's got really good stuff. He wrote a book called Think Again. We'll have to link to that in the show notes on this one because that literally— it literally talks about that being a really valuable skill set, like not just in the corporate world or professionally, but like as a human. I love it. To be willing to rethink something. Yeah. So anyway, okay.

Yeah, that's great. Gosh, we are. Okay, so I know we're going to talk about school choice.

We're going to talk about the bill. But this is actually— I think this is so great, Erin. I do. Because again, I want every person listening to this to understand the power of their voice. That's what I want. Like, you have a voice.

I want that so much for every human. Like, there probably has never been a more wonderful compliment maybe than my own mother telling me, like, you show me what I never had. And that is, I never had the courage to just, to just speak up or to speak for others or to challenge groupthink. Right. That's, that's pretty meaningful coming from your own mom who, you know, taught, taught me a ton too. Right. Of course. So I was elected in 2014. I served in the state Senate then for District 35 in Bismarck, which includes— it's like central Bismarck, the heart of Bismarck. It includes Bismarck State College, the state capital, a number of, you know, schools, a lot of working families. It's one of the most, you know, longest established parts of Bismarck. So So a lot of hardworking families who live right in Central Bismarck and, and served on the Education Committee. That was really where I developed such a passion for education policy. And it was kind of nice to harken back to, you know, being in a classroom where I felt so deeply about impacting those, you know, those little 20 bodies that were in my room for an hour a day or whatever it was. And being able to now apply some of that to how do we, how do we shape policy in a way that positively impacts tens of thousands of kids across North Dakota, you know, thousands of teachers across North Dakota. So it was a really, really interesting and, and I don't know, just it meant a lot to be able to do that work. It really did. So I served. Yeah, I ran again for reelection in 2018 and did the same thing then for, for almost 4 more years.

Right. So I just want to ask, as you, as you kind of became more familiar with kind of where, like, so in your work on the Education Committee, were there Were there things that you saw that you were like, I'm going to make it my personal goal to change that, shift that, not fix, but maybe improve policy? Were there some just core things that really bothered you about what was currently in place at that time?

Well, I will tell you the only— the really noticeable thing, and I'm going to mention this because we just talked about it earlier. I was the only female serving on, on the Education Committee. I was the generationally, certainly the youngest for, for a while. I mean, there were some changes in that, in that committee during each legislative session. And I became a mom while I was in the Senate. My, our son was born in 2016. I had just started serving. In 2015. So my perspective shifted pretty significantly when I became a— now a working mom serving.

As it does, right? Yes, as it does. And am I correct to assume that you were also the only professional that at one point had a teaching license?

I was the only person who had been a classroom teacher. I'm trying— and I don't want to minimize the experiences that other people brought into that conversation because they're all valuable. Sure. They are all valuable. You know, we had a couple folks who had served on a school board. You bet. Yeah. In a rural community, in a tribal community, folks who had worked at the regional level in education. So we certainly had a superintendent, you know, somebody who had served as a superintendent of schools. So all really valuable experiences to bring into conversations about education. The longer I served, the lesser there were people who had professional experiences in education. And what did you— what was the impact?

Yeah, what was the impact of that? Like, what did you— yeah, go ahead, whatever you were gonna say.

I think what was frustrating to me is, is this idea by so many people in really an elected office that if somehow they have been— if, if they have sat in a desk as a student, that that makes them an expert in education. And the number of times I'd be like, yeah, I've walked into a doctor's office and that doesn't make me a doctor.

Oh my goodness. Like, people can't see my face, right? This is the video. I think— I wonder— I'm just going to kind of wonder out loud about this. How much do you think social media has to do with that? Oh, like a ton, right? Because it's not— I mean, this isn't just limited to that perspective. It's like everybody thinks they're an expert on everything because they live like they breathe. And like you said, and that— I think what— but I think what that calls out, Erin, is how important it is that we push back against these things as much as we can. Right. And again, use our voices to influence things positively because you aren't an expert because you were a product of the system. Right. In any way. And I mean, again, we have—

and I wasn't an expert because I had been in a classroom for 4 years, but it certainly gave me a unique perspective on what that feels like.

Right. Just as your superintendent, as an admin, had it, and a school board member, as you know. But it's crazy. We had, you know, we had a local bond, school bond referendum fail. And I feel like what you just said is something that I sensed in the community when people— yes, it was good enough for me. Exactly. Therefore, it's good enough for our kids. And that, that always— it always hit me sideways. And I just thought, well, the world isn't the same. Like education, I get there's, there's facets of education that haven't changed a whole lot in a good number of years. And I think, and in some ways that need to, right? There's probably some reform. Exactly. That could be discussed along the way. But the idea that anything that we experienced in a completely different climate in every way that it could be different, like, I don't know. So I, I feel like I saw that, and I can't imagine how frustrating that was to see that kind of— and again, I'm not demonizing anybody. I mean, I think nobody on that committee came, came to that table with the best, the best of intentions, trying to do the right thing. But it's—

and not everything happened, certainly not. Most of what we debated in that committee was not brought forward by the 6 people sitting in that committee. I mean, it was brought forward by legislators from, from all over. But I, I will say I try my best to believe in best intentions always, even if they are vastly different from where I am. There must be some reason that you're doing this. Now, who you're listening to, what you're reading, where you're getting your information matters significantly, especially when you're in a position of power and privilege and decision-making on behalf of other people. So, you know, fast forward to— let's see, so I ran and was reelected in 2018, which means my term would have been up in 2022. And I could feel, especially in the last 2 years of my term, a real shift, not just in politics, but in who I was becoming because of it. I, I didn't like how I was presenting myself anymore. Like, I felt sad and angry and like didn't know really what to do with that. And really believed that my district deserved somebody who maybe was, was just better suited for politics given what it has become. And I was bringing all of it home to my family and just really needed to, much like I felt when I was in the classroom, like I needed to just take a step back and secure my own mask before I could be of great service to others.

Yeah. Can I ask a few questions about that? Did it feel like— so there's anger. You said sadness. Yeah. Was there cynicism? Would that be a word to accurately describe what you were feeling? What was kind of the genesis of that? Like, what were you starting to feel like you were seeing too regularly that was creating that kind of feeling in you?

National politics being really brought into what felt like it wasn't every conversation, but it was too many where I can tell that what you are listening to right now is not reality. And now you're bringing it in the form of legislation that is going to impact every North Dakotan. Dang. Well, when you feel like you don't share a reality with people anymore, And this went so much deeper than like partisan politics. It just— my biggest frustration was with really great people who are smart and were committed and were serving for all the right reasons, who felt like they needed to vote out of convenience with just, to me, really asinine stuff. Yeah, I just really struggle to To me, that's not courage. That's not conviction. That's not, that's not giving people what they deserve in a leader. And I needed to be out of that environment, frankly.

Yeah. Well, I only asked because I think, I think this is a— I think this is common. And politically, I mean, we could say a whole lot about what's happening right now. But I mean, what you, what you just described is continuing. And that's just on the streets of every town that we all live in. And you have these moments where you're just like— I guess maybe this is what I'll say about, about what you just shared, is that every single one of us again has a voice, and every single one of us has an actual immediate sphere of influence. As in, there is some control that every single one of us has to make an immediacy of some sense better, right? Like whether it's just your immediate family, you know, you think about, I mean, I talk about this all the time, small town people, if you're like engaged in stuff, you got your hands in lots of stuff. Therefore you actually, as just how you're showing up in the world, who you're talking to, the kind of energy you bring to meetings, the smile you put or don't put on your face, like you influence a lot. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes when I, when I, cuz I feel this way a lot, Erin, Frankly, and again, it's not because this isn't just a political thing. This is just kind of a—

no, it really is applicable in all sectors, in all professions, in all personal— yep, personal lives.

And I just want to remind everybody, like, A, you have a voice, and B, just look up once. Like, just stop, stop doomscrolling or listening to whatever your news outlet is. I don't care which side of this —coin you're, you're listening to. And just because if you're, if you're walking around agitated every single day about something happening far off— I'm not saying being informed is a problem, but if it's actually stealing your joy from today, and what you're frustrated and angry about, if you can see almost zero evidence of that happening, like, in your neighborhood, then it's just simply like a, what would happen if you just like like, okay, I sometimes talk about my dad. I give him a lot of grief. I've actually said to my dad before, like, hey, Dad, I know you're really worked up about this thing, but I'll be like, look at Brinley, you know? Like, she was— she's our youngest child, right? And I'll just be like, this— she— bring it back. Yeah. Like, she's the person that you can influence, and right now you're influencing her in kind of a negative way just, just because you're so worked up about something. So I, I I think, and thank you for having the courage to, to, to prioritize yourself, um, and not in a selfish way, but in an actually meaningful way. Because if you're wired for service, which very clearly you are, your service means nothing if you're that tapped out, right? You know, it did feel hard decision for you, very selfish.

Um, I'm sure because I had, I had recognized, um, and feel really strongly that every person deserves a voice in the community, in the state, in the government that we have. And there are a lot of people whose voices are not a part of that process. Absolutely. Yep. So I recognize that while I did not feel at all irreplaceable— every person is replaceable, let's be honest— it would be replaced with likely somebody different. Maybe, you know, maybe just not representing the same things that, that I was trying to ensure that I brought to the table when I was at the table. Right. And I just, I really had to be okay with that because, and try to find somebody who would, who would well represent us when it wasn't me. So I announced I was not going to run for reelection. That was in maybe the early, late spring, early summer of, oh my gosh, 2021, probably 2021. Yes. And in December of 2022, I got a call from the White House saying, we have been given your name by a few folks in North Dakota as somebody who we may want to consider for a presidential appointment to lead USDA Rural Development, which is the position I was in when you and I met, Rebecca. Yes. So I went through an interview process, went through lots of paperwork and background checks and all of that. Luckily was not worried about what they were going to find in that background. And right in, in March of 2022, I was appointed to serve under the Biden administration in USDA Rural Development, which was a federal agency whose mission was to expand economic opportunities and improve the quality of life in rural and tribal communities all across the country. And I got to do that work right here in North Dakota, ensuring that our smallest towns and, and small town people really had quality infrastructure, public services, and strong small businesses to live to live the same great life that other people get to live in bigger communities. Right? Right. Yeah.

So, and thank you. Like, I get it. Again, we, like, touched— we're like, we're going to have this conversation about—

oh my God, we're so far off base.

But I think it's so— I think the whole— thank you seriously so much for just sharing all of that, because really, any person could activate things that you shared in your journey and again, either get more involved if that's what they want to do, but find ways to use their voice, use the things that they care about. So that does bring us to the bill.

Yeah. So in my time with USDA Rural Development then ended at the end of the Biden administration.

When the administration changed, which I also just want to say, I don't know that the average person thinks a lot about that. It's actually massively disruptive, even for me at the time being in local economic development. It really is astounding how even in a state as small as North Dakota, you feel the shifts that happen. And then again, just recognizing that all of your state programming and all your state funding and all your state programs, we have a new governor, right? That when you had a governor that served 2 terms and had kind of a long history of this is who North Dakota is, for example, with Doug Burgum, when that changes, it, it really is disruptive. Yeah. And I know not everybody feels that, but it, it really is kind of wild. Um, especially people, great people like you. It's like, well, okay, now I don't— I won't have a job because you were a previous administration's appointee.

I just don't think everybody can. And also, um, you know, to be clear, I, I really did so little of the hard work that World Development does Um, that those are, those are career staff who, um, who remain in, in the office. I mean, now it's a different time. There are a number of folks who have taken the early retirements who were let go if they were early hires, not as a result of administration change, but policy change.

Yeah, that's, it's wild. It's a wild time. The Growing Small Towns Show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns Podcast studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support, and it's It's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you. Today's small town shout out is the unincorporated community of Guelph, North Dakota. It's located just a stone's throw from my hometown, and I simply want to call them out for a couple of very cool things that they have in that community. And truly, it just goes to show that no matter how small your town is, if you have enough local pride in the form of dedicated, committed people, really cool stuff can still happen. So there's two things. There's this group called Off the Shelf at Guelph that purchased the old school building. It stopped being a functioning school in the early '60s, and they have markets several times a year where you can go and peruse a bunch of antiques and vintage items along with repurposed furniture. Plus they still maintain the building. In fact, all of the proceeds from that— those markets go to the maintenance of the building, and they still rent out the large old beautiful wood gym for wedding dances and all other sorts of parties and receptions. Super, super cool. Highly encourage you to check out Off the Shelf at Guelph. Also, there's an old train depot building that was purchased by a young couple and they transformed it into a beautiful Airbnb, and it's filled up a lot. And it just goes to show again that people are— will come visit your community if you give them a reason to do so. And so again, big shout out to Guelph, North Dakota, because I don't want anybody to ever underestimate the incredible power of people that care. Way to go, everybody.

Trying to summarize now everything we've been talking about for, what, 40 minutes. Those are all the perspectives I'm bringing in now. So I left USDA Rural Development on January 20th, on Inauguration Day, and took a little time to figure out, okay, Where, where can I have impact? That is what I care the most about. Yeah. I love to be able to provide that impact through public service, but that, that doesn't have to be the only way. People have great impact in so many ways. You are a prime example. So, so where, where can I be of help now is essentially what I was, was saying to myself. My son is in second grade. It has allowed me to have a little bit more time, like walking him to school in the morning, which is, is just my favorite. And, and at the same time, the legislature wasn't— is currently in session as we're speaking. They are in what I assume is probably about the last week of this legislative session. And this topic of school choice, as it's oftentimes called, has been a pretty hot topic this legislative session. There were maybe 7 to 10 bills that were introduced, all under the kind of umbrella of what folks call expanding school choice. I am a firm supporter of choice. What I am not a firm supporter of is expecting other people to pick up the tab for the choices you make. And I think that's ultimately like when you really narrow it down, what this debate is about, right? We are responsible as a government for providing a uniform, you know, quality public schools. We are responsible for funding public schools for anybody who doesn't want that option for whatever their reason. Right. I support, I support you doing that. If you choose to homeschool your children, if you choose to enroll them in private education, in parochial schools, by all means exercise that choice. But do so knowing that that's your responsibility. And that's how my family raised me. That is how when I enrolled in private, a private university for the families that I taught at a private school. They, they understood that this is, this is something I care enough about that I'm making this commitment to, to fund a different choice. And I respect it. What I, what I don't believe is that that entitles you to the taxpayers paying for an entirely different system so that you can use the one that, that we already fund.

Right. So, so let's talk a little bit. I mean, okay, I listen to this. And the reason I agree with you is because it seems to me to be so obvious, right? Like, to me, you're saying that and it seems like, well, obviously it just is. It just like, truly, it's hard to— but let's talk about what are the— what are the proponents of this bill like? What, what are they pushing back on? Also, if you could share a little bit for our audience too, because I mean, we're just— we're talking about North Dakota. But a bill like this— oh, this is enacted.

This policy is in almost every other state.

Yeah. So I think that's something to talk about too. Just like, what are your opinions on how and why? How did that happen? And why did North Dakota— why did it even get introduced in North Dakota? Like, if you could share even any perspective that you have on that, I just think that's interesting.

So this has been I would say a long time coming in North Dakota. Like, this is not the first time these bills have been introduced, but it's kind of like a slow creep, I would say, of policies that get there here in North Dakota. I was— when I was in the legislature, what this looked like then was private school advocates coming to the legislature and saying, you know, we want to change policy, we want to change tax policy in this case. To create tax credits for individuals who make donations to private school scholarship programs so that those scholarship programs can support the tuition of families who may need some, um, some financial assistance to attend if they want to attend. That's how it started, and then that tax credit got expanded, and then it got you know, sort of first it was a trial. It was sort of a pilot like, we'll try this for 2 years and see what happens. Then it got put for sure into code forever, I suppose, unless somebody were to go in and change it. And so this has been a slow creep here and across the country. You know, they— we oftentimes hear the term vouchers. That's, that's what they have long been called, our school vouchers. And if you just really break down what the term voucher means, It's like a form or a check or a coupon that's issued by the government indicating like a credit against future purchases or expenditures. In this case, it's tuition money, money for credit towards private school enrollment. That is what it is. Now, because vouchers have been hotly debated, and have had not probably the outcomes that proponents have pitched them as. Now they're calling them education savings accounts. So, you know, language changes over time, terminology changes over time. That's why the broad umbrella of school choice is being used. Saying school choice sounds great. I mean, that's why. But again, it's who is paying for what?

And why, right? So what, what are the proponents of this bill? What are they standing on? Like, what's their, what's their primary platform or reason?

So they, they say that, um, that children who go to private school are saving the government money, and so why should their parents have to pay not only for the public system through their taxes, but now for their own private tuition as well. To, to that, I always respond with, we live in a society. We all contribute to public services, whether we utilize them or not. I pay for public parks. If I choose to put a playground in my backyard, Rebecca, because I don't think the park is good enough for my child, I don't come to the government and say, I want you to pay for my playground. If I choose to use, you know, the country club instead of the golf course.

Yep. Or a pool, like a public pool versus your own pool. Yeah. Right.

You know, a private road that is not accessible to everybody else. If I don't believe that the police are keeping me safe and I hire private security. I don't expect the public to pick up that tab for me. To me, it is all the same thing. And I—

it's a public good. It is really good. It does need to be viewed the same way. Kind of all the other things aside, obviously there's, there's more nuance and like a wider spectrum of challenges and differences of opinion of what makes a good school versus what makes a good park. Right. But that's— I do think that that's the baseline. And we have to get back to that's what it is, because, yeah, it's this kind of radical individualism versus collectivism. And again, I understand that thought process. But let's talk about what happens in these cases then. What happens to public schools when something like this is enacted?

Yeah, I mean, I think you can, I think you can look at sort of micro, you know, micro small impacts, but also long impacts over time. So if you think on a, on a very small scale, Rebecca, let's say that the community you're in has a, which most rural communities, let's be honest, there is not a private school, right? Not only is there not even an option to take advantage of this so-called voucher or education savings account if you are a rural family with a child in, you know, in school, but now to me, then that disproportionately falls on your tax, your tax base. Now your community is paying for families in Bismarck to go to a private school. That's ultimately what's happening. Now let's say you do have a private school somewhere in the vicinity where you have 5 families, you know, 5 families who are willing to drive 30 miles to take their kid to private school every day. The impacts to your school district of those 5 families of children leaving, now that pool of resources that the state is providing is no longer going to your school, Rebecca. Right. Now, it is highly unlikely that all 5 of those families, let's say there's 20 kids together in those 5 families, it's highly unlikely that they're all going to come out of the exact same classroom. So you're still going to have to pay for the exact number of teachers, for the exact same school building, for the heat, for the cooling, for the water, for the, you know, the transportation and the busing service. For the food services. Like, none of those expenses go away, but what happens is the state contributes to your school based on how many kids are enrolled.

I think in our school, 20 kids are no longer enrolled.

It's about 10 grand a kid at my school, so that's $10,000 a year. That means then that either either your school has to figure out how to go without that money and make cuts. Usually the only place left to cut in K-12 education is staffing because that's the largest expense, or your local property taxes have to pick up the tab. Right, right. Those, those are the only options. Like, those are just the realities. And now, you know, if you want to look at the extreme I would say, look what has happened to rural communities if and when they can no longer support a school. There are dozens of communities across North Dakota that once had a school. Now, this is about, you know, reducing the populations of rural communities. Yep. I don't know, and I won't pretend, I won't try to exaggerate what the effects would be. But if a family really wanted a private— I heard, I actually heard testimony on one of these bills, a family who moved from a rural community to a larger community to enroll their kid in private school. If all of a sudden the state is saying, here's $5,000 for every kid, in this case $4,000 in the bill that passed, $4,000 for every child that goes to a private school. Might that be what a family wants to move to then Bismarck to then enroll in a private school? I don't know. I really don't know. Right, right. What I know is we're incentivizing, I guess, folks to leave a community for something that they don't have access to. To then use taxpayer money to access it.

It's interesting. I think as I listen to this and I think I literally try to put myself in the shoes of an advocate for this program. Right. And just think what— how as, as a society does this policy make us better? What, and what are the proponents? Yeah, what, what's the answer to that?

Yeah, I think that, um, maybe we just don't, uh, think enough about this as, as a community. We think about it as an individual. As an individual, if you're telling me that based on a decision I've already made— so let's say, Rebecca, I am somebody who has opted to put my child in private school. Already. My husband and I have been, um, have been making that financial decision. We have budgeted for that for the last 5 years, and all of a sudden the state's going to offer me $4,000 out of nowhere. What are you gonna do? You're gonna take it, right? Oh yeah, right. You're not making— you're not making a different decision. Overwhelmingly, Rebecca, every state that has ever done this ends up just subsidizing families who have already made this decision.

Yeah, it doesn't necessarily shift so more people can. Also, where in the discussion about this are the requirements that public schools get to set? Because there's some different— there's a— there's a different—

right? I mean, there are huge differences, and I'm glad you brought that up. So, um, not only is there a lack of accountability and transparency in terms of what happens with the And so far we've been talking a lot about kind of the, the money that, that comes along with this. But also, private schools don't have to accept every kid who comes through their door. In fact, many times what, uh, what doesn't work out in a private school just gets immediately shifted to the public school where they have to and choose to and love, even when it's really, really hard to serve all, right? So if your child— if your kiddo has behavioral issues, right? If your kiddo has really complex, uh, learning challenges, if your kiddo has physical disabilities, all of those public schools take all, and private schools don't have to. Like, to me You're private for a reason. You don't get to have the best of both worlds. And that's what this—

that's what this feels like. Yeah, this feels like—

yeah, right. And it creates— it creates only greater inequities. That's—

that's for me— that's for me the biggest thing. That's for me the biggest thing, the biggest, like, long-term impact on society in general is just it widens it widens the gap that's already there. And yeah, I think if the data was proving that somehow there was a different outcome, right, like you said, versus just subsidizing people who are already making the choice. Right. So what— where did the pressure for this come from? I mean, like, seriously, I get it. Okay. So if we've got, you know, almost 50 other states that have adopted this. Yeah, I can see where maybe it feels like we're not progressive or something. But what do you have any— I mean, can you offer anything as to like what was the— what was the catalyst or the impetus for this to be, you know, widely accepted?

There are states that have been, that have been doing this for a long time and it costs a lot of money. So it oftentimes starts small, you know, oh, this is not going to be that big of a deal. This is— look at this small price tag. I guess I don't think of, you know, $20 to $40 million as a small price tag ever, um, but it grows really fast, um, because again, that foot in the door, it's like, now I want more, now I want more, now I want more. Um, they expand it to, um, to more, uh, to more eligible families. They increase, you know, if they income guidelines on who is eligible. There's tweaks along the way that end up making it more expensive on a state's budget to fund and again creates this, I think, distinct difference between who you're serving and who you don't have to serve. And if outcomes were different, which they don't usually show even a difference in student outcomes, I don't— I don't— I'm having— I have long had a hard time. That's why I've always been opposed to this. Yeah, I don't see the benefit to society. I don't see the benefit to taxpayers. I even think about it in terms of, you know, you and I have talked about how much richer our lives are by learning about people who aren't just like us. Right. The more like homogeneous the, um, you know, the, the bubble is, the less reflective I think of the entire world, um, that experiences. And to me, school isn't just about learning how to add and subtract and, and, you know, write and read. It is about how are you prepared for the world you are about to enter when you are 16, 17, 18 years old. I want my kid to really understand what the world is going to be about when he gets there, when I'm not here by his side, um, to help him navigate, you know, questions. Like, I want him to be prepared for that. And, um, I assure you His school, he goes, okay, so Bismarck is the largest school district in the state, serves the most kids. His little school building is one of the oldest schools, one of the oldest school buildings in Bismarck Public Schools. It is incredibly diverse. It is one of the lowest incomes, and he is doing phenomenally because they invest in high-quality teachers. And he has really engaged parents. Right, right.

I, you know, and I think about— when I think about a private school, it's like you get to make the choice to pay for the inclusivity that you think it's offering your child. I don't see how anybody could actually convince me that it's good policy for taxpayers to fund the exclusivity because it's, it's an actual— like, we're leaving people— we're funding with taxpayer dollars a school's right to exclude. And that's the reason that it did. It's just, it'll, it'll honestly never make sense to me. Honestly, I just don't.

And obviously there are people who want that, you know. There, there are people who want that environment, and they choose that environment, and they have taken on the responsibility of paying for that environment.

Right. Right.

That's your choice. That's your choice. Yeah.

School choice exists. That's it. Yeah, that's it.

That's right. That's right. And I support your choice.

One thing that's interesting is we've kind of focused primarily on private versus public. But what about homeschooling? Because that's a part of this bill, too.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Well, So, so the one that passed, um, and it, um, it's been so interesting, Rebecca, to watch all of this go down. Um, the homeschool community has certainly been paying attention to what has happened across the country in all of these other states, and what they have witnessed and experienced is oftentimes when you say yes to the money, it comes with strings attached. And I respect their very principled position of saying, I'm homeschooling because I don't want all those strings attached, right? Guess what? I don't want your money. They don't even want to be written into the bills. They don't even want the option of taking the bills, the money, because even if some do, and if something were to go, you know, awry, whatever, I mean, I don't know, um, usually that hammer is going to come down on everybody. And they don't want the hammer. Yeah, that is, that is why I don't want it.

Well, and I think what's interesting too, and again, I, I, I would guess this is a factor for some of the homeschooling, um, families, it's a lot of times their extracurriculars and, you know, in the, in the other ways they round out their kids' education, whether it's sports or, you know, the arts, those things are oftentimes accessed through a public school.

They absolutely are. And, and the number of times, again, because I really got interested in engaging in this debate again, even from the outside of the Capitol walls. Yeah. Listening to parents who homeschool get up and say, my best partner is the public school. I get to access the things that I, that I think is, are best for my children in that space. And then I take care of the rest. Right. And if you— if any decision the state is making might diminish the quality and the resources and the opportunities that are available through the public school, that's going to negatively impact my homeschool child.

What's fascinating about that is when we were talking about— when you were saying that when resources— that example of like the 20 kids, right? If there would be 20 kids that would leave and choose a private school, that one of the quickest things that, you know, one of the fastest ways to cut in a school's budget is staff. The other big thing are extracurriculars, like the arts. Arts gets cut so fast. Always, always is the first. Honestly, and let's be real, in like Class B North Dakota schools, we'll cut the arts far before we'll cut sports of any kind. Right. And so that I think it even further strengthens that kind of position for our homeschool families because they want their kids to have access to all of those things, some of those enrichment activities.

Yes, correct. Yeah. That they wouldn't be able to offer.

Right. Absolutely. Of all the states that you're aware of, North Dakota, we're one of the holdouts. Is South Dakota another holdout?

I don't know. I don't think so. So the states, I believe, that have held out are because the public had the opportunity to vote on it.

Yeah. So let's talk about that. So, so I believe it's the states.

I want to, I want to say it's Kentucky and Nebraska, maybe. I would have to double check. Okay. And now I just saw like the other day Utah had it challenged in court. And interesting. Okay. Or the court deemed using public funds for private education unconstitutional. So we often hear folks around North Dakota saying, well, this is unconstitutional. Well, that depends on who your judges are. Absolutely right. All of this is about interpretation. And, and I would rather continue to make the case because I firmly believe the vast majority of the North Dakota public is on our side of this. Right. They do not believe that public funds should be used to fund non-public education.

So what's the state of this bill currently? And as, as people are listening to this, like, how and what should they do, if anything?

Sure. So as of today, at this time, House Bill 1540 is what has passed the House and the Senate and is on its way to the governor's office for signature. We have no idea if the governor will choose to sign that into law or not. Okay. So right now we're encouraging people to contact the governor's office and encouraging him to veto the bill. What we know— so I have helped to organize a coalition of just regular North Dakotans like I don't belong to a professional community, you know, an association. And there were so many people who wanted to be engaged in this. So we call ourselves North Dakotans for Public Schools. And hundreds and hundreds of people, Rebecca, have, have joined this coalition as a way to engage in the debate along the legislative process. So they were contacting their legislators. They were trying to have conversations with their legislators about about the impacts of this and how they, um, how they wanted them to oppose. Some did, some didn't. The nice thing about this issue, I want to be super clear about, this is not partisan in any way. There is the— this bill passed by a very slim majority, and you don't get it to that point without the support of a lot of Democrats and a lot of Republicans, right? So right now it is where it is. We are encouraging Governor Armstrong to veto it, and North Dakotans for Public Schools is preparing for what that next step in the process would be allowable under law if the governor signs it into, into law, and that is for the citizens to refer it, a referendum measure. What that means is that North Dakota citizens could put together a sponsoring committee. That sponsoring committee could then put that— collect thousands of signatures from across the state in a very short amount of time. So we would have 90 days to collect, um, oh gosh, I think it's more than 15,000 signatures from across the state. Submit those signatures, those petitions to the Secretary of State's office, and if the Secretary of State's office deems those signatures to be valid and to represent the number that legally we would have to collect, that language would go on the ballot of the next statewide election. So if that happens, that means in June of 2026, in the primary election, North Dakotans would get to say say, uh, yeah, legislature, we agree with you, we absolutely support this bill that you passed, and it will become law. Or they can say, hell no, we don't agree, um, and it makes that law null and void.

And you need a— do you need a supermajority?

Uh, no, that is—

that's just regular, just a regular majority. Okay. All right. Well, it's, it's super— I mean, it's It's super interesting. And I think— and I also want to say something because I was sitting here and I was like, I wonder what kind of comments people are going to come back at me with about this. And what I just want to say is that kind of where we started with this conversation, just the whole political climate, I welcome anything that people have to share about this, right? Like, if I said I just don't understand where, you know, what would be kind of the rationale or the reason for thinking this makes sense. If people are listening to this and they have a whole bunch of ideas about what that looks like, as long as you talk to me with decency and respect, man, I'm here for it. So I do just want to make that statement. Like, sure, we want to engage in a dialogue about these things because a policy like this, a law like this. There are real impacts to, especially in my opinion, rural schools. And because the show was about small communities and, you know, giving them every opportunity to— like, kind of like you talked about the USDA, right? It's like giving, just, um, helping to address some of the inequities that just exist because they do, and by nature of being rural.

Exactly.

And so figure out, you know, figure out what makes sense. What did— what does a, um, a closing of those gaps really look like? And I mean, we're going to debate these things till the day we die, I imagine. But this is an important topic. And so for sure, in the show notes for our fellow North Dakotans, we'll make sure that we link to your coalition to let people get involved if they choose to do so. Thanks for having me. As we wrap this broader conversation, do you have any last thoughts about what that you want our listeners to know, knowing that, again, our listeners are from all over the country, but they're just like me. They're in a small town. They're just like you once were when you lived in your town of 600 people.

Yeah. And let's be honest, it's not like Bismarck in the grand scheme of things is some huge city in North Dakota. Exactly. It's one of our largest, but in the grand scheme of cities across America and across the world, you're rural, too.

She's still pretty quaint and small.

Yeah. So I guess what I would— thinking about this conversation we just had, which started in a way maybe I wasn't thinking we would, but appreciate how much grace you gave me and kind of sharing all of these perspectives that go into this. I am— I feel so privileged, honestly, Rebecca, to have been given the opportunity to serve in ways there's no way I ever would have expected. When I graduated from high school, my idea of what I could do in my life— and this is not to minimize these three careers at all— but what I saw in front of me every day were nurses, teachers, and farmers. Mm-hmm. I knew I didn't want to be a nurse. I knew I didn't want to be a farmer. I became a teacher because that's what I saw. And I clearly cared about having some sort of impact about, you know, and my world has opened up in ways that have allowed me to learn so much and to want so much for other people to have access to the kinds of information that I have, to the incredible people I have gotten to meet, and to understand the impacts of decision-making by other people. On the lives that we live every day. And it— I will tell you, ignorance is bliss. I wish, I wish a lot. Yes, I wish a lot that I could just turn off the— if there was a switch I could flip, like, I don't want to care about this, right? Yeah, I feel that. Yeah, I would maybe choose to flip it, um, because it it's hard and heavy and, and there's a lot of work to be done. And I've just decided, you know what, I'm going to pick something I care enough about that I feel like can— it matters to people. And I'm going to use the voice that I've been given, that other people have encouraged me and supported me in using, whether in an elected office or not. In this case, I am a mom who cares about the schools that all of our kids across the state get to go to, no matter their ability, no matter their family's income, no matter their zip code. And I cared a lot as a legislator about making sure that we made resources available to support them. And, and now I'm, I'm a mom who wants to make sure every other, um, every other kid across the state has access to the same great quality schools, great teachers, and huge opportunities the world has to offer. So that's— anybody can do it, Rebecca. I'm not— anybody can do this.

I, I had a quote just popped into my head as I was listening to you, and it's a Dr. Seuss quote, and it it's— and my voice is going to catch in my throat because I'm actually getting very emotional listening to you because I think you're such an exceptional human. And I'm so grateful that our paths crossed. And this feeling of like, what if I just didn't care so much? Wouldn't that be cool? I feel that honestly.

You're about to Lorax me, aren't you?

I am about to Lorax you. And so the quote is, unless a person like you cares there's a whole awful lot. Nothing is going to get better. It's not. Yeah. And that's what this is about. Yes, this is about a specific bill happening right now in our state, but it's about activating your care. And everybody can do that. And I love that that's the message that we're leaving everybody with, because I do think that sometimes it can be very overwhelming when you look around and it kind of feels like everything's a dumpster fire and you don't have enough freaking water to put it all out, right? It can feel that way. And if you're empathic and you do care a lot about people, but everybody can do a little bit to push for the things they care about, to advocate for other humans. And that's if you're the person that we're going to be able to have in legislative positions, in I get to walk my kids to school next to somebody like you, Erin. That's the kind of society I want. That's the kind of community I want, is people that actually care about each other.

I really believe it's in all of us. It just might be for a different issue that motivates you. And I also recognize very much— I told you I feel privileged, but I also recognize all the privilege I have. There are people who are working so hard every day just to get by. Yep. I'll fight this fight for them because they deserve a really great life. And if it means I can help create the community that they deserve, I'll do it. I'll do it. This is about community. This isn't just about kids. This is about whole communities and what we want and need as a civilized society.

So you're one of the good ones, friend. Thank you so much for the time this morning. It was a wonderful conversation and I can't wait to continue it soon with the wine that we discussed earlier because it's got to happen.

Thank you for the opportunity, Rebecca. This has been such a pleasure and really appreciate the time and, and those who listen to conversations about rural spaces and rural people that, that we both care a whole lot about.

Absolutely. Come back and see me soon. Okay. Deal. We hope you loved this episode of the Growing Small Towns show. We encourage you to leave us messages at 701-203- 8337. And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at growingsmalltowns.org. In the meantime, keep doing what you can with what you have, right where you are. Your community needs you. Because we are Growing Small Towns. We are growing small towns. We're right here living our best lives, as crazy as it sounds. But we are growing small towns, growing small towns. We are growing small towns. We are growing small towns.