S5:E18 - Being a Developer with a Heart with Dylan Cinti

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Dylan Sinti. He is with a company called Live Yarrow. They are located in Ypsilanti, Michigan. And yes, you better believe for my local North Dakota friends, we had a whole conversation about the fact that there is actually a similar town, which of course in North Dakota, we, most people call it Ypsilanti, spelled the same. That was a fun little fact. Dylan reached out to me. After having listened to one of our previous episodes and kind of, he, this episode is called Being a Developer with Heart. And I say that to him at one point in this interview or in this conversation because I just think that's something that's missing. There's a lot of people willing to develop properties, even develop communities. They don't always do it with the intention, mindfulness, and soul that I think Dylan does and that he shares in this conversation. And Ypsilanti is a town of just over 20,000 people. So again, truly on the small side, and you're going to hear just some really unique perspectives in terms of what real estate development means and looks like for him. And again, for me, I listened to this and I thought of every community I've visited or every person from a small town that I've visited with that talks about their old buildings and what to do. And I think the way that Dylan approaches it, there's a bit of a reimagining taking place. So enjoy this conversation. With my new friend Dylan from Ypsilanti, Michigan. And don't forget to take notes. As always, there's some really good juicy tidbits in this one. Enjoy. Well, hey Dylan, welcome to the show.

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Oh my goodness. It's great to meet you. Super excited for your perspective. But so again, because I told you before we hit record that we have this fun little coincidence, a serendipitous thing, why don't you tell our listeners where the town that you're in. Yeah. The name of it. Yeah.

Yeah. I am in a— so I work in a small town in Michigan called Ypsilanti, and it's, it's about— it's pretty close to Detroit. And it's considered a— people who live in Ann Arbor, which is home to University of Michigan, often don't even recognize Ypsilanti as its own place because in many ways it is fused with Ann Arbor. But But yeah, Ypsilanti. And then do you wanna talk about— Yeah.

So, so when I looked up where your company was, and we'll get into all of that, I, I kind of went, no way. So I know that you, that it's pronounced Ypsilanti for you. It is almost, almost, I think by most people in North Dakota, 'cause North Dakota has one as well.

Yeah.

Most people say Yip-sil-anti. Really? With the Y. Yeah.

Yep.

Which it sounds like that is not gonna be okay if we come to visit you in Michigan. Right.

That is a— that would be a grave mispronunciation.

Grave faux pas. We don't want any faux pas. But anyway, it's so wild. That's the little village where my husband, uh, was, was born and raised. He lived in, in— and I'll say it for your benefit— Ypsilanti. Uh, do you call it Ypsi? Because— yeah, so they call it Ypsi.

Really? So they have the same—

they have the same— yeah, the same. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's just kind of a fun coincidence.

Yeah, that is— today was the day I learned that there's another Ypsilanti. I'm shocked that there's another Ypsilanti anywhere.

Yeah. And who knows, maybe there's more around the world, but you got one in North Dakota and here we are having this conversation. So that's pretty special.

Absolutely.

So why don't you tell us a bit about, um, about, well, like maybe start with your company. Or maybe start with what— if this is the town you grew up in, what brought you back? Just tell us a bit of your kind of general origin story to set the, set the stage.

Absolutely. Yeah. So I, I went— I grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and went to the University of Michigan. Um, Ann Arbor is a big college town and a really wonderful place to grow up. A lot, a lot of young families and kids. And I grew up in a, just a really great neighborhood where everybody kind of knew everybody else. But then, but then this Ann Arbor is the, has this major university, the University of Michigan, one of the leading research institutions in the world, maybe, maybe number one based on some measures. I think on one ranking that was released recently. But so I, so I grew up in kind of a unique and privileged position where I got a small town experience, but also had the opportunity to intersect with a lot of really influential people, people connected with the university and, and then just meeting speakers and authors who were coming into town over the years. And I, I decided pretty early on in my life that I wanted to be a journalist, and I was a big reader of biographies growing up. I loved— I loved learning about history through the lens of one person's individual experience. I remember the Oppenheimer biography was, was transformative for me, not because I have much of an interest in or understanding of physics, but because that biography communicated in plain-spoken language how this, how this person thought, who was in, who was so different from me and this genius and but also a conflicted genius and somebody who had real qualms about what they built and its, its reverberations. So I was so affected by biographies and I wanted to be a part of telling stories. And I went to the University of Michigan, which has a daily newspaper called the Michigan Daily. And I basically was secondarily a student and primarily a student journalist. I did not do that well in school because I was spending every moment I could in the newsroom. Um, at the time, it— the the sense of urgency and per— and purpose in getting a paper out the door at— oftentimes it was at 2 a.m., you know, a print paper for the next day. There was something unbeatably exciting about that and also just the camaraderie that develops among journalists or among student journalists. And then the feuds. I remember that we were always up against the sports section because the sports section didn't really care about news and we didn't really care about sports. And, and then, of course, Michigan is this huge football—

huge.

So inevitably, the sports stories would be the ones that would really, that would really take off. ESPN would pick up, you know, one of the daily stories. But anyway, having that community really reinforced that I— that my skill set that I wanted to build was talking to— being able to talk to people and pull out, you know, a really compelling narrative thread, just having conversations with people. I remember I covered an election in which a student at the University of Michigan was running for county board of commissioners, and he ended up winning by a single vote. And I— wow. Yes. And I think the story, it was, it was such a gift of a story to be handed as a student journalist because it was an opportunity through telling this one story to tell a bigger story implicitly about the, about the importance of a single vote, especially within a small town community.

Right.

And I was always thinking about how can I, how can I position a story in a way that captures attention while also being true to, to its subject and maintaining journalistic integrity. Then I, coming out of college, I moved to Chicago because that's where I imagined the journalism roles were. And this was 2013. And I had a very humbling, eye-opening experience as an aspiring journalist, realizing that it was just about as cutthroat as it gets. The opportunities were not there either for— certainly for print media was, was going away, but also online, just the competition was ferocious. I remember getting an unpaid internship and having to compete with— at a radio station and having to compete with people for spot for unpaid spots where we would be shadowing the, the, the on-air talent. So I realized that I was going to have to pivot. And that's where I learned about and got into corporate marketing and spent about 8 years doing that in Chicago. So doing content marketing, branding, rebranding, user experience stuff. For tech companies and doing that. And basically until I hit 29, which incidentally was when— was March 2020. So I'm sure a lot of your listeners and actually I think some of your prior guests have talked about just the— just how COVID changed everything. And that's a universal part of our lived experience now. It's something we all have in common. And I, for the, for the 8 years leading up to March 2020, I had been kind of dutifully climbing the proverbial ladder within 8 different agency settings, meeting great people and, and developing real skill sets that were very useful. And I felt so— there was— I don't— because I think my time spent in marketing was extremely useful and, and valuable, and I enjoyed a lot of it. But in March 2020, when everything went remote, for 2 weeks. That's what they said. They said, "What is up?" When I remember I was working at an agency where we were on the 39th floor and it overlooked downtown Chicago and they had all these cool accoutrements and it's a really great company called Walker Sands. But when I was suddenly at home alone doing this work, I began to think more about the work itself. And when I removed all of those accoutrements, the— and the kind of lifestyle elements of working in corporate marketing, working right downtown, and I just purely distilled, distilled it down to the work. I, like many people at that time, had a I, you know, a little bit of a crisis of purpose and also just the climate of the world at that time really heightened that feeling of, am I doing something purposeful and impactful? I do think we're back at a place in our world, in our country, where people are thinking the same way, just because everything feels really high stakes right now for a number of reasons. Right. So I thought about doing something more. And oh, so for me, My, my goal in reconceiving my career was to think about what would, what would, what excites me and what is something that I can realistically do, you know, with my skill set. I knew at age 30, I probably am, I'm probably not going to go to med school because then I will, I'll be 45 coming out of school, that's that. And a lot of people, that is the time where they start a new career. But I kind of want to—

was— can I just ask real quick, was the medical field something you were— were you pulled towards that?

My dad is— my dad is an infectious disease doctor and, and at the University of Michigan, he teaches at the University of Michigan. And sure, no, I never thought seriously about medicine. But what I did see in my dad is he's He's somebody who has a real impact on people around him when, when people are sick or they have some mysterious rash. He's the person they call. Friends of ours, they're the— he's the person they call. And there's just— I just— I've always felt— I've always had a lot of respect and deep respect for my dad and what he does and the very humble way in which he does it. I would say I thought about med school for about 2 seconds. I don't, I don't have that kind of brain. Um, yeah.

Can I ask you something else about this, about this time? Because I, I want, I want you to get the whole arc of your story out. It's just like I'm— but I have a bunch of questions as I, as I'm listening. Uh, the, the first, the first— well, a couple, um, if you're okay kind of backtracking and then coming back. So, um, first of all, I love, I love a background in journalism. I'm not at all surprised that the difference, the stark difference between your experience as running your student newspaper and how much joy, like everything you talked about in describing that compared to what you experienced in Chicago. I wish I could say that it doesn't surprise me at all. I wish I could say that it did. But I do think what's cool about it is you sound like a very purpose-driven person. Driven man, which I think is really special. I think it's really unique. And what I wanna know is like when you had that moment where you said you felt like you had a crisis of purpose, which is a really beautiful way to put it. And I honestly think, um, anybody that's lived a handful of years on the planet, if, if, if they're wired the way that I believe you're wired, which is for purpose, right? And for impact. Um, there'll be a moment where you have that feeling of just like, is what I'm doing Is it not even enough, but is it the thing? And it doesn't really align and stuff. So what I'm curious about, Dylan, is did that just come from within you? Was there anybody outside, like any forces in your relationships, whether it's family or friends or a therapist, even? Heck, I don't know. That kind of helped you frame out these questions for yourself as to what to do next. Or was this all just truly internally driven? Because that's hard work to get to without any kind of mirroring. So I'm just wondering who was surrounding you at that time, or what, what that looked like, what your support network looked like at that time.

What a great— that— what a great question. Yeah, I do think there's— I've encountered people in my life who, who I think are innately purpose-driven. They are wired to make a big impact. And that's how they— that's just in their DNA. My wife's— I'm sorry, my brother's wife is very much like that. She is in law school right now at NYU. But we— my brother and his wife grew up together, as you know, as friends. And then and then got reconnected and got married later. So it's a great kind of marriage origin story. But I've known my brother's wife most of her life because they were family friends. And from, from when she was very, very little, she always knew she wanted to stand up for the underserved. Her goal was— she's, she's driven by a real sense of right and wrong. And she saw and observed that the justice system often only works for people with a certain level of privilege. And she want— she wanted from a very young age to be a part of defending the under-resourced and underserved. And she's going to be a public defender. I'm not like that at all. I'm very suggestible. So I very much appreciate that you said I seem like a purpose-driven person. I think that's something that's come later. And I spent— I spent a lot of my 20s, most of my 20s chasing a lifestyle that I believed would bring me a level of happiness and life fulfillment. It was very important to me to hit a certain price point in my salary at one time in my life. You know, I remember crossing a certain numerical threshold was very, very important. And I felt a real cause for celebration doing that. And I imagined, you know, the loft-style apartment condo that I would buy. And so just to go back to what I said, I am a suggestible person. What I have the real gift of growing up in a family and in a community that really emphasized service and with my mother in particular. My mom is somebody who— she has a social work background, but she's— she in her life is really a community advocate and, and very strong community participant. She works with— she works within schools to help kids position their, their stories, their narrative as they're applying to colleges. She volunteers on the mock trial team, helping kids get a better, get, get more confidence in speaking extemporaneously, which I think is so critical and a skill set that's really going away with the rise of AI. Yeah. And my, and I, the, and my mom is somebody who maintains a vast and rich social circle of people who really feel listened to and attended to. By her. She's able to maintain this extraordinary group of friends where she's such an active participant in their, in their lives. And, you know, I remember growing up, if we, if we, whenever we got a gift, we knew we're going to be writing a thank you. And it's not just a thank you card that says thanks for the gift. I love it. It's, it's going to be an expression of gratitude that reflects thank you for this gift, but also I'm thinking about your role in my life and I really appreciate you for XYZ. She instilled that in us from day one.

And that, my friend, is a gift. That is an incredible gift to have that kind of— but the social aspect of it in particular, relationality, community. And having that modeled so clearly is wonderful because that's something we can talk to kids about, right? Like, in an upbringing environment, you can talk to them about how important it is, but it's a whole different thing when you see it being modeled like that. So that's really special.

Yeah. And she was the one who taught us to apologize the right way. Not I'm sorry if you felt offended, but actually taking responsibility and learning how to apologize, which I think there's, there's certain, there's a certain ethos in business of don't ever apologize because you've, you're expressing weakness, you're showing your cards. And that's my mom taught me otherwise. So to answer your question, I would credit my mom for a lot of that, for a lot of that stuff. And I do think in my, in my marketing career, I was led astray from that a bit. Not that it poisoned my values. I was working with very good people, but I started thinking more about lifestyle and lifestyle creep happens, you know, your salary suddenly you can afford to go to Whole Foods rather than Trader Joe's. Maybe that's not a reference that lands with you.

Yes, I'm— yeah, we do not have either, but I've been to both. Yes. So, but I think, I think, I think what's so important about this, what I— and why I love— and you're taking time with your backstory, which I really, really appreciate, um, is, is that I truly think that, um, there's a couple things you're speaking to that are just human, and I want to draw them out for anybody that might be listening to this. I, I really do think one of the coolest things about being human is that at any point we actually do get to change our minds. You know, I mean, if at some point you feel like this thing that I'm doing or this path that I'm on and it starts to feel not right, I think it's a bigger disservice to ourselves if we just like shut that, those inner voices down, right? Because inherently there isn't anything wrong with chasing or pursuing a level of financial comfort. There's nothing inherently wrong with that until it starts to feel like you're doing it at the expense of something deeper, right? Or at the expense of something more grounded in who you really believe you are. And, and the other thing, Dylan, that I think I— and I love to— I love that you shared that this kind of all happened in your 20s, because I think— I honestly think that's what your 20s are for. I just don't think— I don't think it's realistic for— because I, you know, I've got— I've got a kid. My oldest is 16. We're not that far from him, like, going out and figuring out what he's going to do and what he's going to be. I think it's unrealistic for kids to come out and be like, I know, like, I know what I'm doing, because you honestly, you figure it out by living.

Yeah, right.

You figure it out by— I just— my whole, like, when kids— if I talk to high school students or whatever, sometimes that happens. I'll just be like, just experience stuff like go out and contribute, you know, like get, get a job, pay attention what feels good about it to you, what doesn't feel good about it to you, and just constantly have some sort of mechanism, right, where you're self-reflecting and maybe you have a good support network and it could be one person, right, that you can kind of reflect those things back to and with.

Yeah.

And from, right. So I just think it's important, like you And, and I think COVID was like a monumental slowdown for everybody. The distractions went away. And that massively changes things for people. And I think that's so beautiful that you were like, okay, well, now this is the work. And I'm not sure this lights me up anymore.

Exactly.

Yeah. So it's really special. Okay, so then, so then what you had, you kind of had this realization.

And then I thought about, okay, I came back to my values because I went through a pretty, a pretty rough period with my mental health where it just kind of everything slowed down for me. I, I wasn't— I was— I felt this. I felt anxiety. I felt a sense of rudderlessness. I felt scared. And, and I just had this point. And it was a pretty long, a pretty long period where things shut down. And I wasn't— I've always been somebody who's very active, whether I'm running or climbing or taking different— I'm somebody who needs to be in motion and, and things ground to a halt a bit. And that, yeah, that led to some serious self-reflection.

And I—

my question to myself was, oh, well, certain people in my life in a very well-meaning way suggested a hard pivot. Go to law school.

OK, yeah.

You know, you're a, you're, you're a well-spoken person. You've always been great at constructing arguments and thinking critically. Go to law school or go to business school. And I, and I went very far down the path of going to business school. I got into, to Ross, U of M. And, and I went to the orientation for accepted students at Ross, and the thing that— I met so many smart people, but the thing that they all had that I didn't have is they had the elevator pitch of how Ross was going to help them further their career. And my, my reason to go to Ross was I wanted that school to give me my sense of purpose. I didn't have that answer of why, you know, so I don't even know why they let me in because I really didn't have a good answer of what are you going to do with this degree? And, and I'm— and what it was, what it came down to is I started thinking about what am I, what am I already good at? And what's the stuff that I've been doing in marketing for the past 8 years that's transferable, that I can build upon, but do it in a more meaningful way for me. And I'm somebody where I'm— I wanted to do something more tactile. The thing about corporate marketing and B2B marketing is that when people would ask me, what do you do? I would say, well, I write white papers for companies in the cybersecurity sector. Well, what's a white paper? Oh, a white paper is an asset that lives behind a gated form on a website and it's used for lead gen. Well, what's lead gen?

Yeah, yeah.

I couldn't succinctly articulate what am I doing on a day-to-day basis. So I landed at real estate. And the reason I love interior design, I love architecture, but the biggest reason that I wanted to get into investment real estate is because I love where I live. I love my apartment. And one of your guests, I believe— ah, I forget which guest it was, talked about a city in the context of love where you live. Mm-hmm. And I felt that when I found my dream apartment, it didn't solve my life, but it— but having a sense of a real sense of home, a place that I love, went a long way toward giving me more inner peace and clarity day to day to focus more on the external world and what— and the impact I can have in the world.

Where was your apartment?

It's the one I'm in now. It's—

yeah, it is beautiful. I get to see it. Our poor guests don't get— yeah, our listeners don't get to see it. But, um, so you found that apartment in Ypsilanti?

I actually live in Ann Arbor.

And that—

oh, you live in Ann Arbor? Okay. Yeah.

So kind of what I was talking about earlier is that people who— particularly out-of-towners who come in, they view— they tend to view Ann Arbor and Ypsi as just one big place because the, the two, the two cities are connected by several different, uh, main streets, and there is a sense of sort of cohesion in how the two cities come together. Um, so I, but which is to say, I live in Ann Arbor but I work in Ypsi.

Okay.

Um, but finding my place was, uh, transformative because I You know, I was able to nurture all these plants. I have high ceilings, so I have a 10-foot bird of paradise in my living room. And a kind of a— what I was saying before is the sense of inner peace allows— allowed me to feel more ready to do other things in life that I was scared of. And professionally, I love the idea of How can I be a part of creating places that people love, spaces that people love, and using my marketing and branding background to tell us to not only build a company, but to tell a story of our spaces and our community? And that was the point of entry.

Right. Okay. So, but real quick, I want to back up. Like, you went to orientation for business school. When— what did that decision look like? Did you go?

No, you didn't go.

Okay, so like, what did that look like? Because again, I think Dylan, you're hitting on some things that I think are so important, um, because there's, there's a lot that a person might fight against, um, when they're in a moment like that. Like, especially if you think, but this is like, I'm already down this path, I'm at orientation, I've been accepted, I've told all of my people that this is happening. And it can be really, really hard to make a different decision in a moment like that because it feels like failure, it feels like defeat, it feels like whatever. Um, so walk me through, walk me through that because totally makes sense that finding the apartment created all the things you talked about. We're going to come back to that, but I still feel like there's that gap. Like, what take me from orientation to why Ann Arbor and kind of what were those motivators? Like, what were the motivations that made you go, okay, this is what I want to do, and you moved back to Ann Arbor?

Yeah, the— oh, well, moving back to Ann Arbor, that was a function of just COVID and not wanting to be in a big city completely.

Uh, I got it. Yeah, totally got it. I wasn't sure if that was— I don't know that we explicitly said that, so okay, that makes sense to me.

Totally. No, that's a great, that's a great question, but But the being in that orientation, I think I was expecting to go to U— to go to orientation for business school, and I would feel a sense of relief because I would feel that I was being pushed in the right direction. And I didn't feel that at all. I felt very overwhelmed by The orientation, I kind of wasn't seeing how the— I got to sit in on some classes and none of it really resonated. And I think it just was the wrong— it was the wrong fit. And I had to— it— but I'm very grateful because I spent many months studying for that. You got to take a test. You have to apply to a bunch of different places. I I— and that was all time well spent because I learned very clearly what I didn't want to be doing.

Yeah, right.

And I think this goes back to what you were saying about your 20s being for— well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you were talking about just the, the 20s being a period of discovery. Um, I— there was a period in my life where I was overwhelmed with regret. I remember regretting not going to this different college that I got into, thinking my life would have panned out a different way, regretting going into marketing because it's too much of a generalist field and I'd never be an expert in anything. The most powerful thing that happened when I approached 30 is that I stopped existing in a mode of regret so much. And I started thinking more about how can my accumulated life experience be useful and, and, and mean something. And I also developed much more of a sense of self-compassion through therapy.

And yeah, that's so important because I've—

I'm somebody who's sort of wired for self, like intensely self-critical.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and, and so part of the turning point that led me to be able to take this next step was developing more self-compassion and saying, you know what, maybe you weren't wasting the last 10 years of your life. Maybe you were learning and becoming a better person and becoming friends with people who— and have meaning in developing meaningful friendships. Maybe all this means something and you don't need to dismiss it. And that, that's kind of where I landed.

Well, and what I think— so, so, so important. I think, I think what's also an important thing to note as you look back on your 20s, or— and again, this is for anybody listening to this— looking back on a period of your— a time of your life, maybe a period in your life where it maybe felt like you are taking more missteps.

Yeah.

You know, that feeling of just like wanting to judge the steps instead of just recognizing them as steps. Like, they're— it's movement. And every single thing you're— you are— you're learning something. You're becoming more uniquely you. Every single thing that you— that you've done, Dylan, it— it's made you who you are. And so I think this is really important. This is something I get really passionate about because I think— I think about the beautiful unique and just totally cool makeup of every single person that lives in my community or your community.

Yeah.

And, and the way they think about the world uniquely belongs to them. And so if we can, like, create environments, communities where more people feel free and safe to express that, the fullness of their uniqueness, like, I just think our entire world would change, like, you know, and every little town at a time. But I like when you said that you were talk— you're thinking to yourself like, what do I know that can transfer? Yeah, I am truly of the belief that everything can. And some of the most amazing ways to show up in the marketplace, like whatever it is that you, that you want to do, is, is taking a unique thing that you know how to do and applying it differently. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, so storytelling and, um, and you're talking a little bit about placemaking to a degree in the sense of the value of place, which you talked about your immediate apartment being something, right? And so I don't— we'll get into this, like if you've— if your work is mostly about the aesthetics and the placemaking of personal spaces in terms of living, or if it's also public spaces, right? If it's mixed-use properties or kind of what, you know, what direction you want to take that in. But that all of that Um, it, it matters and it's unique. Like being a journalist and bringing that to the field that you're— the area that you're in now is a completely unique perspective, Dylan, and it's, it's wildly valuable. That's— so I just, I think it's so important to know like everything you've done has value.

Well, thank you. Yeah.

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Thank you. And I love the term placemaking. That's kind of a new— that's a new term for me. So I wrote it down, but I want to touch on that because it really plays into how I think about community and small-town community. I, in my view, my role, my role as a placemaker, which maybe I'll start using that term. I like—

you absolutely should.

My role, as I see it, is to— there's equal need for me to create spaces that people are proud to call home and a community that people are proud to call home. And that's the two-pronged nature of what I am doing in Ypsilanti. I am, on the one hand, I'm, I'm working with local tradespeople, local contractors to completely reimagine the spaces that we own. We buy buildings that have seen better days, that are— they're not, they're not derelict, but they're, you know, they're— I would say, just to be blunt, like they're crappy rental units.

Okay.

And we systematically reconceive the spaces to provide a condo quality living experience for people who make the median income of Ypsi, which is right about $40K.

So we— Okay, whoa, whoa, timeout. That's something. Of all the people that I've talked to, that you are touching on something that I might get into like logistics and nuts and bolts and some of this stuff with you, Dylan, because it's— the reason this is so different is because— and we'll talk a little bit more about the properties themselves because I'm curious about it. But you're talking about, you know, crappy properties are mostly— is there a specific profile? Are there— is there like a bit of a punch list for you and your company when you're looking at properties to buy? Like, do they have to be historical in nature? Are there Are there any sort of kind of— is there anything like that that you use to filter the properties that are ideal for you? Or would you literally buy anything as long as you felt like you could? Because I don't know, how are you doing this in a cost-effective way to meet that median income? Because the biggest challenge with all of these properties and every Main Street everywhere, um, especially when you start talking condos, right, or like, like living units, it ends up pricing the average person out of the neighborhoods. And that's such a problem, like such a problem. I'm not saying that low-income housing should all remain low-income housing, let's say. But if you're pricing out the average wage earners, you know, then, then the cost of everything gets too expensive and nobody can live there. Yeah, I mean, nobody can live there except wealthy, wealthy people. And then, then you lose so much culturally too. So, oh my gosh, like, that's okay. So go wherever you want with that. But I just want to know, like, how amazing it is that that's your goal, right? Is to make it so they're market wage, they're market rate apartments versus high end.

Yeah, there's, there's— well, you mentioned a lot of things that I did that deeply— well, that deeply resonate with me. There's two, two things that resonate the most. One is your question of how do we maintain a viable business? How do we maintain a viable business when we're pricing to the median income, which means that we are investing a lot of money while limiting the, our returns? And that's something I want to address. But also the thing that's maybe even more stood out to me is that you You touched on the process by which communities lose their spirit through become— that the more desirable a place becomes to live, the more it loses its essential character. And I feel that that is— that has happened to Ann Arbor, and I do not intend to live in Ann Arbor long term. I want— I want eventually to move to Ypsi. I do want Ypsi to be a safer place where I feel comfortable raising a family and having kids who can run around outside. Ipsy's not that place right now in my view. But, but Ann Arbor, over the, the first luxury condo development in Ann Arbor was in the late 1990s. A developer bought an old armory and turned it into really higher-end condos. And, and in the intervening 20, 30, almost 30 years now, Ann Arbor has become a place that is unlivable for people who are making under, let's say, $200,000 a year. The median home price in Ann Arbor is $600,000. Well, uh, what this has done is push people out in a very, um, systematic and sad way. And often the people who truly contribute the most to Ann Arbor do not live in the community. And the people who, you know, the people who are living in the community are— there's great people who live in the community, but you have to have maintain a certain income and it's not livable, especially for young families. So, so there's kind of two parts to this in terms of how I'm thinking about Ipsy. One, how do we make the business viable? And two, how do we preserve the spirit of Ipsy, um, and not have it become overrun with, with wealth and push out the people who make it so great? Uh, in terms of the viability of the, of the business model, I'm not gonna pretend like we have it all figured out. Uh, we buy these properties— you asked earlier, do we buy just any property? We, we don't. We look for certain things. We, we look for ceiling height, um, and historic features, because in our renovation process, we want to be able to honor the historic features of a building. So, uh, so historic character and charm is a huge part of our, of our buying process. Um, but I think the thing that we're doing differently that allows us to be viable is two things. First, we are communicating a— we've been able to get some investors who are really, uh, committed to our long-term vision. A lot of the time, real estate investors, people who are investing particularly in a real estate syndicate, they want to see immediate returns. They want to see returns that beat the, the S&P 500. That's, that's the reason they're investing in a property. We, we were lucky enough to get some investors who really are, are committed to getting behind our vision for building a better, more livable, but also attainable city. So that's, that's huge for us.

Are they local?

Uh, yes. Yeah, they are.

Okay.

And that's a good— that's a really good question because Yeah, I have feelings about out-of-town investors.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's an important question, I think, from just from the standpoint of— because also, Dylan, I think what you're telling me is that you have created a model where local investors— the idea of patient money is what's coming to my brain, like, because it isn't about an immediacy of return. And I've said this before, but I think every great thing like, oh, well, not every— a lot of the great things that happen in a community, um, don't fully pencil out with the, the most desirable ROI, right? And yet, at least financially, um, but that the return on that investment comes in the form of some of these other things that you're striving for, whether it's culture, preservation of culture, enhancement of culture, um, a community that can attract back young families. Like those are real things. And I, so there's this social impact to your investor's money that I wish somehow more of us were talking about, I guess, because it's so, it's nothing great's ever gonna happen if everything has to pencil out. I'm sorry, it's just not. There are certain things in a community that aren't, They're not going to.

Yeah.

So we've got to measure the return in a different way. So I think it's really special that you've got people putting up money to do this kind of work, understanding the long-term goal. Yeah, that's, that's unique.

And having patience. Yeah, having patience that I'm so lucky that the people we got to invest in the company have a sense of patience because There's— patience really comes at a premium a lot of the time. And the work that we're doing takes time, serious time, many years. But that's the other thing is that we're not— we are not opportunistic. And when I say we, I'm— because my brother is the co-founder of Yarrow, although he works, as I mentioned, in commercial real estate in New York. And, and I couldn't do any of this without him. And he's— to be quite candid, Jake and his income is part of the reason we're able to— he's, he's kind of floated us through some unexpected challenges that we've encountered during these during these pretty big remodel projects where we encounter, like, the scope can very quickly blow out of proportion when—

Yeah. So, yeah, like asbestos, like you come upon asbestos in a space. Yeah. Or just pick a thing, anything, right? Like you dig into these old buildings and suddenly you go, oh, but let's— I just, I don't want this because, okay, a lot of people are going to be listening to this and thinking like, I can almost imagine though, must be nice. You know, you have like a you've got like a wealthy investor, right? But I think, I think the bigger story here that I never want to lose the thread here, Dylan, is that there are wealthy people that have a heart for the— they're there, they exist. And so we cannot assume that just because somebody is a high-income earner, or because like your brother's entire lifestyle, just like on paper, like if I didn't know anything about him or I hadn't talked to you, there wouldn't be a lot of reason for me to assume that he would be willing to put his money into something like this.

Yep.

But the problem is the assumption.

Yeah.

Because it just goes to show, like, there's people out there that care, and it's your job, our job, to tell a good story and to invite people into that story, into helping us build that story.

Absolutely. And that's— so that's the other— telling the story brings me to the other part of the, the day-to-day work Yarrow does. And I'll send you some of these videos afterwards, but 80% of our marketing spend at Yarrow is not to promote our business or our units. We, we put a lot of marketing spend behind creating these highly produced, thoughtfully packaged videos spotlighting small businesses in Ipsy. And we do this too as advertisements for those businesses and advertisements for the city of Ypsi. And they've really taken off and found their audience. The last one we did, it was viewed, it got 40,000 views, and I think it was, I forget how many shares, but the population of Ypsi is 22,000. So it got— so 40,000 views means that people beyond the community of Ipsy are watching this content. One of the things that I— and this goes back to applying my skills. I'm a marketer. I'm a journalist. I know how to ask questions. I know how to make things look good without betraying the truth of what they are.

Right.

So I have this unique ability to tell, uh, um, really impactful stories, not just about business, but to make sure that all my local business stories ladder up to an overall message about the value of a community like Ypsi. And once again, I mean, I'm indebted to the, the people who have confidence in that vision because it's a long-term, you know, spending many thousands of dollars creating marketing assets for other businesses isn't— it doesn't necessarily seem like a way to grow your own business. But, but when we go back to what you said about placemaking, a big part of my business is how do we create a more livable community? Not just how do we create more livable condo-quality rentals. Because if I live in a great condo-quality rental and then I go out the door and there's no businesses open, right? Everything's out of business, then it's not a great place.

It's— that's exactly it.

The place is a combination of the walls that contain you and then everything that's there when you step outside.. And my work and the work of Yarrow is elevating and nourishing both of those things equally.

It's, it's, it's— you're, you're a developer with heart. And that's what our communities need. That's what all of our communities need, frankly. Yeah. Because we need, we need that kind of holistic approach. It's very, very unique. So I'm super happy to be talking to you about it, to be hearing all about it. So I would love to know, what are the biggest— what are the biggest obstacles to this work for you? And that's really specific, I realize, but I'm wondering specifically, as you know, as, as we're talking about it, the specific nature of that question, I'm thinking about in terms of the community, because, you know, this show was called the Growing Small Town Show, right? Like, we always bring business owners on. It's great. Um, you have probably plenty of barriers to growing the business side of it because running a business is hard, right? Yeah. So I'm really thinking more about what are the obstacles as it relates to this vision for the community? Like, what's getting in your way that maybe you didn't expect or anticipate?

Yeah, the number one thing, the number one challenge that I face and that our business faces is that we are a landlord. And it's a dirty word. It's a dirty word in most circles. I don't, I don't think anybody— I don't think, like, if you're doing the, that, that test where you say a word and then somebody— that association.

Yeah. Right.

And somebody says landlord, probably somebody else would say, oh, greedy or slumlord. Or so our number one challenge is that we fit the mold of kind of a character that is disliked. And I do want to talk a little bit about the renting experience in Ypsi. IPSY has a bad landlord problem. And without going into specific names, right, there's—

let's not.

Yeah, but there's historically— IPSY is not a good place to rent. It's a very bad place to rent, a place with documented instances of chronic neglect on the part of landlords. And the other thing is that Ypsi, within our county, Ypsi has by far the largest renter community. So, so the challenge is I don't view landlords as people who provide housing. I don't. I view landlords as people who take away housing. I think landlords, as a means of self-justification, sometimes position themselves as housing providers. I, I do not think that's true. Um, when you are buying investment properties, you are eliminating the possibility, uh, you're taking away the footprint of single-family properties that can be owned by new homeowners. Um, and my— so to get back to your question, my challenge is is repositioning the role or rethinking the role of landlord. The first thing, the first way I do that is by being pretty transparent about my intentions. When I talk about Yarrow and in our marketing, we say we're purposefully small. That's not just a cute phrase. It, it really means like we're not focused on rapidly expanding our property portfolio. Um, through real estate, you're able to do something called a cash-out refinance, where you can pull out equity based on value you've added to the properties. Um, real estate investors tend to use that as a mechanism to expand their portfolio. They will refinance and then buy another property. We very specifically And purposefully, when we refinance, which we do, all that money goes back into the properties. It's a way of adding value back into our properties, not expanding our footprint. And that's one of the ways that we ensure that our properties look good, that they're, that they're amenity rich, but also that we have the capital to handle any issue that arises in a very timely, responsive way. So, so that's one part of it. Um, the other part of it is just combating this obstacle of a kind of, um, uh, how do we, how do we redefine the term landlord? Um, I want to think of myself as a, as a steward of community and of buildings. So on the building front I believe that the role of somebody who owns a building is to honor that building, the history of that building, and to honor it by creating a wonderful space in which to live. So we do that. Um, I also believe that if you own properties within a small town, then I, I think it's incumbent upon property owners to be— to at some level be stewards of community the I do that is part of it is what I mentioned, putting 80% of our marketing spend into creating ads for other businesses, content for other businesses, and essentially shining a light on everyone else, not ourself. You know, one of the things that I never put my face on in a video, you'll never see me or hear my voice in one of our videos. I'm happy to be having this conversation now, but, but in the, in the marketing I do, I'm very, very careful about position. How do I position myself as a cisgendered white male with a certain level of privilege who's come in from a wealthy city like Ann Arbor and, and buys properties in a less resourced city? I'm not the hero of this story, like, and if I got in front of the camera and made it all about what I'm doing to enrich the community, that would be a really stupid move in my, in my opinion. It just, it wouldn't be strategic and it wouldn't be sincere. Um, our community stewardship is always about shining a light on on others, on other organizations. And then the other thing is, I believe that building owners of commercial spaces have a responsibility to invest in and help keep afloat the businesses that occupy their spaces. I think that is a responsibility that building owners of commercial spaces have. And we own one commercial building, and I take that responsibility very seriously with the business that's in that space.

So what does that really— what does that look like, Dylan? Yeah, on the commercial side specifically.

So there's, in my view, as a commercial landlord, not a word I love to use, but I look for opportunities to prop the business up that's in my space. So a very concrete example of it is the business is called Yours Truly. It's an event venue. Um, shortly after taking ownership of the building, the owner of Yours Truly, the, the event venue, came to me and said, um, the flooring in work. She said she, she was very candid with me about, I want a premium event venue. And some of the feedback we're getting is that the flooring that's, that's in the building is not— it doesn't look premium and it's a deterrent. Can you help me with putting in new flooring? Now, this, this ended up being like a $13,000 job. We did it like we did it. We did that job, made that investment. And it's more an investment in the business than in, than in us. But what it does is it extends the longevity of that business. It gives that business an opportunity to change their market position, to better reach a higher tier of consumer and to elevate their category. They want to be a premium event venue. We can help them do that. And actually, my, my good friend who's also the contractor I work with, he's the one who did, who put in all the flooring. So that's a big investment. And that's the kind of thing that I, that we do as a, as a building owner to prop up small business.

If you could wave a magic wand and change anything about the maybe the less attuned landlords, I don't know if we should call them that, or property owners, the ones that maybe don't share this ethos because this is a very specific ethos that you have, Dylan. It's beautiful. And I think it's to anybody listening to this, you know, if they're okay. So a lot of the people that listen to the show are people that are in community development or or, you know, or they're just like, they're the folks that just really care about their communities. If they have building owners in their communities that don't share your ethos, do you have any suggestions for them? Like, what, what could they do? What should they do? How do we nudge those people along? How do we educate them differently? Like, what, how do we talk to them? What do we say? What do we do? Because this, this like property building owner challenge is a prevalent one.

Yeah, well, I have a cynical answer and then a more— my cynical answer is sell your building because like if you're not prepared to be a good community steward, I think it's probably a bad fit. You should just buy— go invest in a real estate syndicate in a high-end, in a high revenue generating you know, 100-unit apartment complex. Um, but the more, the more realistic answer is, um, it, it is genuinely good for— it's good for everybody when a downtown space is a flourishing hub of entrepreneurial activity.

Right.

It's good for everybody. It— what it means is, as a building owner, you will be able to get market rent. It also means, as a building owner, if, if there's, you know, if there's thriving businesses on your block, it means that people who are looking for to launch their first business will consider your space. But one of the things that is, is there is a very clear domino effect that happens when there's too many disinvested building owners. Because, because one of the many challenges of small business is the margins are always razor thin. And small businesses, the reason most small businesses lose their don't last is because they don't have a big cap. They don't have any reserves. They don't have that rainy day fund. They are— they are a month-to-month establishment. And when building owners approach, I think the number one thing is The number one thing that I would want to impart to building owners is when you sign a lease with a commercial tenant, it is a collaboration. It's not just you're going to collect rent. You need to be invested in this company's ability to grow and to, and to succeed and And the more, um, the more building owners do that, the more we'll be able to have, uh, small towns with businesses that last many years. Um, as opposed to in Ipsy— in Ipsy, if you hit the 1-year mark as a small business, that's a big accomplishment. A lot of businesses don't make to that one year.

Right. Right.

Great, great business. You know, businesses that— but they don't make it. And that's bad for everybody. That's bad for— that's bad for the community morale. It reinforces a sense that, oh, our city is cursed or, oh, we just have an Ypsi problem. Things fail. Building owners can play a part. And I just have one anecdote to kind of illustrate. This, and this is, this is something that another, I would say, stewardship-minded building owner did. And this is a story that I know because his handyman told me, but, um, this is a guy who's operating on a much larger scale than, than me and my brother. And at the start of COVID um, and, and he, he owns a lot of buildings in downtown Ann Arbor. And at the start of COVID some businesses came to him and said, like, we're a month-to-month business, we, we rely on foot traffic. There's no foot traffic. There's no— we're not going to be able to pay rent. We're going to have to close. And what he did in the case of multiple businesses is he said, pay when you can, but, but until you can, I got you. I'm gonna float you, uh, because I believe in what you're doing, and there's better days ahead, and we are going to get there. That's the spirit that building owners need to have.

Are you gonna write a book, Dylan, one day?

No, I— no, no way.

But, oh man, I think you could. I think you could. I think this is a— this is a really unique I think it's, again, it's like philanthropic in a way that I'm not used to hearing or seeing. Yeah.

And I want to— I appreciate that. And it requires being well resourced or having a business. The best— one of the things that I'm so grateful for is my brother's business acumen, because he can financially model everything, like show, okay, this is what our rent roll is generating, the, um, this is the, the budget that we have for capital improvements, and we can put X dollars into marketing. And my brother lays that all out for me. I don't have to do it, and I don't have the skill set for it. I'm not a— I'm a I think in terms of big—

of—

I think in terms of impact and vision, right? Um, I have somebody on my, my brother who— and we also have a good accountant and that kind of stuff, but my brother is able to give me these answers of what do we have the money for and how do we work strategically to reinvest. Most small businesses do not have that kind of acumen. Um, and, and that's— that contributes to their, to their closing because they have vision like me. They have, you know, they want to do something, but they don't have the tactical or, or operational experience to live out that vision. And I do think that building owners have a responsibility to provide to provide resources and basically to make the path of growing a business easier, not harder.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Because there's not like launching and maintaining a successful small business is just about as hard as it gets.

I agree. Agreed.

And, and the landlord-tenant relationship is one that is inherently adversarial. A lot of the time because, because a building owner is somebody with the power to evict and that creates an adverse—

You bet. There's a, there's a power dynamic that you can overcome it. Actually, that's— it's not to be overcome or overcame, but it's— I think it is something to be considered with a bit more care and thoughtfulness, right?

Yeah. And And when you— when you grow community, small communities, in a, in a thoughtful way where you're sharing and pooling resources, everybody benefits. Um, one of, one of the things that I've encountered, just because I am involved in local government, I'm on the DD, the Downtown Development Authority. And we've done some landscape analysis and research into small businesses. And there's a feeling among small business owners that all of them are on an island, that they're all on their own island. Nobody's helping them. There's no life raft. They're at it alone. There's no compass. And that's a really sad and lonely place to be as a business owner. So part of what I work on in my capacity in the DDA is not only how do, how do building owners become better building stewards, but how can other small businesses better work together to pool resources, right?

Yep. So is the Downtown Association the only mechanism you have for that? Do you have a Chamber of Commerce? Do you have any idea? Okay.

Yeah, it's a good question. We have a Chamber of Commerce. It's a little bit— historically, it's a little bit more Ann Arbor focused because it's the Ann Arbor Ypsilanti Chamber of Commerce. So they have a bit of an identity issue where they need to— they've been very consciously repositioning themselves to be inclusive of the Ypsi community. There's other organizations within Ypsi that are doing— that are trying to do this work. Work. For instance, there's a group called IEA, the IPSE Enterprise Association. The problem is that these organizations are run by small business owners who are, who are running on fumes a lot of the time.

Right. Right. It's like, do all the work and then organize yourselves to help each other do the work. Like, that's what the burden becomes.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's not a realistic proposal. And a lot of the time, like in the case of the Ipsy Enterprise Association, I don't, I don't think they're meeting anymore. And it's simply a function of they don't have the time. They don't have the time to come together. So, so I always am thinking about how can we be additive to the community by giving business owners like quick, easy resources. Let's say that one business works with a fabulous accountant who's very well priced. Well, can the other businesses work with that person?

Like, yeah, yeah.

What mechanism is in place for that business to communicate to all the other businesses, hey, I work with a really great accountant, they're taking on new clients. They'll get your books in order and they're, they're great with bookkeeping and not that expensive. Um, just resource sharing. So that's how I think.

Yeah, you're— so Dylan, you— we've been talking a long time and I just think it's, um, you're, you're casting a vision for a really different kind of relationship, I think, between business or building owners and the people that that, you know, lease them, whether they're leasing them for, you know, their home environment or their work environment. Um, and I mean, I don't think you're gonna get any pushback from anybody that does this kind of work, um, that local investment is where it's at, right? Like, obviously you said you have your feelings on, uh, outside investors. I think all of— most of the people that would be listening to the show share, share the sentiment. Because what accompanies local investment more often is care. And, and that's ultimately what we're talking about. And it's— I think you're, you're really— I mean, I'm so happy to know you. I'm so happy. In the, in the show notes, we'll be sure to share like whatever videos you send that, you know, like that can just give a taste of this really different way of engaging with the community. You know, as a, as a property owner, I've never met anybody that also does these of videos for the general community. I just think it's exceptional. But as, again, as I'm listening to you, I think you're helping frame out metrics of caring, which is something I talk and think about a lot.

Metrics of caring. That's great.

Yeah. Well, like, what does economic development look like if it's not, you know, smokestacks and you know, big industrial attraction. Well, it looks like this. And these are the things that drive the things that drive community, a sense of belonging, a sense of care, a sense of love of place. Those things are all human things. And so I've never met anybody quite like you.

Oh, that's, that's— I really appreciate you saying that. And that's— I've gotten some great I've written down just various things that you've said because, um, this idea of placemaking has really resonated with me. And then, and then you mentioned earlier that you said, I'm a developer with heart. That's really meaningful to me. I don't— that's what I want to be. That's my— that's what I aspire to be. And, and as I continue on this path, the The number one metric by which I will be measuring my success is, um, am I a— are, are, do our tenants having a positive experience? Um, and then beyond that, are people having a positive experience with the city of Ipsy? Is it a place where I will see, where I will see more foot traffic? Is it a place where people will come from Detroit and Ann Arbor because they want to check out, um, this cool bookstore, Book Love Bar, and then they realize, oh, there's this amazing cafe, Sea King, across the street, and there's actually this like putt-putt place called Putter Round, so let's, let's visit there and make Ypsi a place where people will spend an entire afternoon. Uh, so that, that's, that will be my measure of success. Um, tenant, tenant happiness, and then, um, people coming to Ipsy because there's a reason to spend an afternoon there.

Well, and I believe for a lot of the people listening to this episode that that's everybody's goal, right? And you've given a really cool and unique way to influence that outcome. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing your entire experience. There's so much goodness that we can take from this episode. And again, I'm always like, well, now I've got another place that I need to come and visit. Michigan now is on the list.

Yeah. And you'll know how to pronounce it.

That's right. I do.

I do.

I know. Thank you so much for your time, Dylan.

Thanks, Rebecca.

Keep it up.

And thank you for the work that you're doing and for really being such a helpful resource for people who are looking to better merchandise their community, reposition their community. I'm really impressed with the work you're doing, and I appreciate it. Appreciate your time as well.

Thank you.

Thank you.

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