S5:E29- How Chambers Can Change with the Times with Kausha Magill

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Kasha McGill. Kasha is the chamber director here in Oakes. She's my friend, my coworker, and kind of my partner in crime. We do very non-criminal things actually on the streets of Oakes, North Dakota, but I always can turn to her when I have an idea, when I have a question. She's just been a wonderful sounding board to me since I opened our doors. She's officed here for nearly 3 years already. Her first episode, she— this is a repeat.

She—

her first episode was aired in February of 2024. Highly encourage you to go back and listen to that one, although the audio quality is not as good as it is today with our new equipment and setup. But Kasia joins us to talk about Union Square, which has been mentioned several times on the podcast, but it's kind of fun to hear, uh, from her perspective just what has been so great about it. Uh, also we talk a lot about boards and how her board, despite being a Chamber of Commerce board, right, like she doesn't have a hard time getting people to raise their hand and say they want to be a part of it. There's lessons here. If you're, if you're currently on a board, you can't get people to volunteer to be a part of it, this is a good episode to listen to. Plus, we talk a lot about how to change with the times, how to stay open-minded, and why it's so important to be a place where people can bring an idea and have it start just to try new things. I'm so lucky to know Kasia, and you're going to love her too. Enjoy this episode with my friend Kasia McGill. Well, hey, coworker. Hello, number one coworker.

Welcome.

This is your first time talking to me with our equipment and our setup and our little studio.

I know. I feel so professional with the headphones and the mic and all of it.

You look—

you look—

I'm sure I look fantastic. You do.

You look fantastic. I'm so happy to have you back. We were just browsing to when you were with us. It's been a year and a half. Since we had you on the show. And so I think, and I think I had shared with you, Jeff Sigler of Revitalize or Die often comes at, you know, he comes after chambers of commerce, economic development groups, right? And now his point is well taken that kind of the standard way those organizations maybe operate, if they haven't kept up with the needs of communities today, they might be irrelevant.

True.

Ours is not. You being the chamber director here is not— that is not the case with our community. The Chamber of Commerce in Oaks continues to be, I think, and again, I get to say these things. I am currently— I am not on the board. I— you— your office exists in our building, in our space. I know a lot about what you do. But I'm not actively a part of it other than just being a sounding board for you, right? I think I can unequivocally say, if somebody wants to see something done in this community, you often are their first stop. And yeah, you're just smiling, and that's fine, 'cause yeah, I get it. And you don't have to be like, "You're right, I'm fantastic." But you are, you're fantastic. So I just wanna kind of revisit this idea of, the relevancy of chambers. Also, we've talked a little bit about an idea that we have for how to maybe engage the chambers around us too, right? So we should talk about that. So why don't we start there? Okay. And really just not just with the idea, but why, when we were talking about it, did that feel exciting and the right move to make? And what are some of the things that you're seeing that make that feel like something we should explore.

Okay.

Yeah, let's start there.

Okay. Um, well, I think I came to you one morning and I'm like, you know, I want, I want to try this idea out. Um, I've been in this position, it will be 6 years in May, which that does not, it does not seem that long. I mean, it seems like I've just came in the door, right?

Well, you know, you've officed here for, it'll be 3. I know, in February, which is just crazy.

It is.

Best move ever.

Oh, yes.

For me, I just, I love having you here. It's just great.

Well, it's a very good place for me to be, test out ideas, all of that.

Right, right.

Brainstorming things. But bringing chambers together, because I have been in this position, like I said, almost 6 years, I still have not met chamber directors from neighboring towns. And we are not that far away.

Right.

You know, our closest town being what, 20 miles maybe?

In Lamoore?

Yeah.

You have informants about that too.

Right, you've got Lisbon and Allendale and, you know, just if you picked a region.

Right.

Don't know who they are. I've been in this position. I know there's some towns that that position has changed immensely and changed many times.

Right.

So I get that that's hard too, but I just think there's so much more we could do together as a region rather than just trying to do things by ourselves.

So what are the, um, I totally agree. I think when you came and said this to me, I'm like, I, this is to me such a no-brainer. But again, we are, we are two people and, and not that we're the only ones, but we're, we're two people that very, we both really believe that we win and lose as a region.

Right, right.

Like you are the director for the Oaks Area Chamber of Commerce and yet you frequently go to Ligerwood for, you know, we could just name a few of the things, like you go to Lamoore for things, you go to the other communities around us, right? Like you frequent them all the time.

Right.

And we talk about it, like the whole idea of, and again, this idea of Ben Winchester coming back on the podcast and talking about just that swing, like how far around the radius, like what's the diameter, you know, if you took a, is it 60 miles? How far will people travel to eat? We talk about this all the time. You know, there's a really cool restaurant, currently as of our today recording in Fort Ransom, that's known for making great drinks, Dry Hollow, right? It's like we constantly say, gosh, or like something will happen and it'll be passed and we'll say, gosh, I wish we had known about that.

Exactly. I mean, even if you're doing a big town celebration, whether that be in the summer or the winter, if you don't get that out to the area, you're still only bringing in the same amount of people because no one else knows about it.

Right.

And I just think there should be that free exchange. Like, as a chamber, if you're putting on an event, say it's in Ellendale and it's Ellendale Days or something, and you want to utilize our chamber and our Facebook and Midweek Focus, where I'm on the radio every week, the other avenues that we use for advertising, I think we should be able to do that. There should be some type of exchange so that our area understands and knows what's happening in your area.

What do you think are going to be the barriers to it? Like, just on the surface, and again, we're not saying they're valid, they're people's feelings, so of course they're valid. But like, what do you think are going to be—

why would we want to do that?

Yeah, right.

I, I mean, I think we've heard that already when you bring up this topic. Like, why would you want to advertise for somebody else? And our answer is Because it's a give and take again, right? We're hoping in the same token that when we are having something here, we're bringing in people.

Well, and that's just it. So let's even talk about one of our more recent events. Well, we've had two kind of recent events in the last couple of months, right? The Wine Walk is one of our events, and then our ODR Shopping Weekend, right? With the Wine Walk, what, like, what can you just give a, like, an overview of what that event is for people listening? Because it's a really, really cool and fun event.

So the Wine Walk, same weekend in September, this was our 4th year of doing that. You buy a ticket, there are businesses involved, and each business is a stop. We have a bus that runs to the businesses that aren't on Main Street. And the businesses have these awesome sales. We have tons of giveaways. Each business gets a red and a white wine, which you and I got to pick out this year. It was so fun.

We had so much fun picking out our wines.

Because each business, we're like, oh, this wine needs to go with this business. Yes.

Like the label, like this label fits. Yeah, with like Brooke. That was, it was so fun.

Yeah, this, oh, this goes to the flower shop. This one goes to the one that has, you know, chocolates. So we give the red and the white. You get a sample of each one, and then each business goes out and finds an appetizer that goes well with those wines. So you do get some food, you get a little bit of wine, you have a ticket. Like I said, there's tons of giveaways. Stores, giveaways, and we have, we had more out-of-town people this year than we had Oaks people.

That was okay. So that was kind of one of my, one of the things I knew you'd get to because that's part of it. And it's like the success of that event hinges just as much on neighboring communities.

Yes.

As it does for our own town. And so that's one of the key reasons to me, like, and, and again, I think we're all trying to get. Young, our young people to return. Oakes is killing it in that regard. Like, we are just attracting so many of our young folks back here, which is great. So exciting. But the truth is, like, it— having cool things to do that are only a half an hour away, or, you know, in a half an hour, like, there's a number of towns that are a half an hour away from Oakes, right? So it makes them feel like they're not giving up as much if they're moving from a more of a metro or urban area. Like, that's just facts.

Well, because you would, if you're in a metropolitan area, you're probably going to travel that anyway to get to something.

100%.

So now, I mean, you don't have the traffic. You might get there in less than 30, more than likely less than 30 minutes.

Absolutely. Except now with our like storm and our weather, right? Or crappy roads, which happens. But I also think the other thing too that I really want to highlight with this that I think is so important is if you want your town to feel bigger, then make a few connections in the communities around you too. It's not just the stuff they have going on, but it's the cool people doing those things.

Yes.

You know, I mean, you think about a big city, and some of the people listening maybe have never lived anywhere bigger. And honestly, the biggest community I've lived in is Fargo. That's not that big of a town, like, on the level, right? But you, like, have friendships that you build kind of from all the different parts of your life. And that's kind of how you have to piece together your network in a small town. And it's— often going to involve people that are not in your community but in the community over. Like, I think about Lemoore. There's some really great people that I know over in Lemoore. There's great people that I know in Allendale. There's great people that I know in Lisbon. And every single one of them plays like their own little part in making my life rich and full. But I— it's not like people are just waving a flag that says like, I need friends, you know? Like, you have to, you have to make that effort, right? And I think this is one of those things I'm really excited. We'll have to report back, you know. We'll have to have you back once we actually host the, like, the regional chamber people. So have you reached out to any of them yet?

No, we, we haven't set a date yet.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. That's where we're at. I was like, have you talked to anyone? So, because it'll be fun to hear. I have this, I have this strong suspicion. I don't know what you think. I, you'll have to tell me. I just think they're gonna be like, oh my God, thank God.

Oh, I agree.

Because like I said, I, okay, I'm 6 years in. There's still stuff I'm learning. But I remember fresh coming in and going, "I am so out of my element here and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. Is this part of my job?

Is this not part of my job?" And lo and behold, like, it's everything you'll say yes to is what becomes part of your job.

Exactly. Right? Yes.

I mean, it is, it's so overwhelming. And I think too, like, we're lucky because you and I have each other here. And while I no longer have that formal role, I think we make each other better. A lot of chamber people, especially— and you're part-time, right? I am. But you're physically coming in here, and for the most part, I tend to be here when you're here. A lot of our chamber people are working in an office completely by themselves.

And that's how I started.

I know.

That's why I think I felt like, oh my gosh, am I even doing this position justice? Who am I gonna bounce this idea off? Is it great or am I just totally off my rocker?

Is it lame?

Yeah. People are like, what is she doing? Yeah. Yeah.

It's just, it's, I just think it's gonna be really, it's gonna be really fun. And this idea that, um, we're not necessarily saying that we're promoting the businesses of these other communities because if, if they want you, the full marketing power of the Oaks Area Chamber of Commerce, and I say that because it's legit. In terms of, like you said, Facebook and the, you know, Midweek Focus and the radio, getting all of, like, getting all the airtime that you do for the stuff for our own businesses. If a business in Lemoore wants that, that business in Lemoore has to join our chamber.

Exactly.

And you have, you have examples where there's some neighboring community businesses that have chosen to do that, but we're talking about just those bigger community-level events. You're not promoting a single business.

Right.

You know, and let's pay for that benefit to do that.

It would be just as you talk, like the Wine Walk here in Oaks. Okay, say there's a wine walk in another community.

Yeah.

Absolutely, we should be promoting that because our wine walk in 2025 just showed us. I mean, Oaks had so many sporting events going on that Saturday.

Right.

Most of our community was not in town and we were like, okay, how is this going to work? It again, it was very successful because most of the people weren't even from Oaks.

Right, right. Well, and I think too, like, it makes the very idea of starting a business in a small town a lot less scary to me if you, if you have a strong chamber. So again, kind of coming back to the entire relevance of what you do, because let's be honest, like, they're called Chambers of Commerce.— you know, we talked about on our previous episode, we fund— this thing is funded through membership dues.

Exactly.

Right?

And you get some— you get some support here and there from different— some charitable gaming organizations and grants you maybe apply for and whatever. But I mean, the bulk of your operational budget is membership dues. So your responsibility is to those members, quite obviously. But also, you have now this broader umbrella commitment to all of Oaks, right?

Yes.

And I mean, that's just, that's just facts. And so let's even talk about some of the other things that you coordinate, you know, so we've got, so we've got some events. The Wine Walk is one of them. The Chamber of Commerce totally pro— I'll say project manages Irrigation Days, which is our big summer celebration.

Yes.

But is that a fair way to put it? Because you're not, you're, you're running it, but you're certainly not manning and staffing every event.

Correct.

And I think people need to understand that.

Yes. You know, when it comes to, I mean, we can list a few things here, but you know, it starts Thursday night. There are certain things I need to know and that I need to coordinate for Thursday night. Same with parade for Friday was a big thing.

Right. Yep.

You know, our streets, vendors, that kind of thing. But there are other organizations that each have their own things.

Mm-hmm.

And the chamber's responsible for getting all of that information together. Making sure events don't overlap.

Yep.

Promoting it.

Right. All of those.

Yeah.

Well, and there was a time, like back when I was on the chamber board and when we went through, you know, we had a, I mean, how long did Audrey run the chamber? 30? Was it 30 years?

Probably.

I mean, close to 3 decades, if not over, right? So when you have somebody of that tenure vacate a position, the hole is just massive. Right, exactly. And I was the chamber president on the board when that, when she vacated. And again, just trying to like fill it. And then we had, we had kind of successive turnover. We had 4 people, right? Yeah. 4 people in, I don't know how long of a time period, but it was, it seemed swift before we were lucky enough to, to land you. Um, and I just, I, I know that there were a lot of things at some point where we were like, why is the chamber doing this? Something like the Easter egg hunt, for example, you know, like you end up, it's like certain groups disband and then they just keep coming back to, well, the chamber's still there, so let's get to them. So I think that's the other thing too, is like this, this is in our community, the chamber is an incredibly stable organization with always a strong board. And right now, I mean, I credit, I credit most of the success of our, of that organization to you. The board is fantastic.

Oh, absolutely.

Super, super important. And I'm not in any way diminishing them, but it really does take just that steady presence. I think— I don't know if I said this on a podcast yet, so I gotta say it here, but like I've said about you, like, you're, you're so incredibly organized, and yet I still want to hang out with you. It's like, I think it's super funny because, I mean, you're like, like normally a super organized person like that is almost exhausting, like Oh my God. Okay. Yeah, we got it. But you're not like that. You're still creative and you're open-minded and you're willing to try new things and you're always looking at what comes next for our town. And I just think you are why it works. Um, and the day when you decide to no longer do it and we have to find a replacement, we have to be willing and ready for that new person to potentially take it in a slightly different direction. Like that's just absolutely right. Like that's just facts.

Well, and I think as you touched on that, when you have somebody that's been in a position for a long time, that person knows what to do. It's not always written down.

Yeah, right.

Or what your responsibilities are. And I kind of felt that too when I first came in, was like, okay, is this what I'm supposed to be doing?

Oh my God, I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. Because again, you had those 4 different people and they all had— everybody has things they're naturally good at and then maybe other pieces they're like either really bad at or not so good at, right? It's just, and you came in and you're like, okay, and you probably had like a hard drive on a computer. I don't even, what did you even have? What did you even have?

Well, I mean, yes, I was in an office by myself.

Yeah.

Oh, it makes me sad to even imagine.

I came in in May and irrigation days is in June.

Oh God. Gosh, I didn't even think about that.

But it was COVID.

Oh, right.

So, we skipped that. And I was like, thank the Lord, this year we are not having irrigation days because I was supposed to pull this off in like 30 days.

That would've been so stressful.

And so my first one was the all-school reunion.

Oh, okay.

Well, just jumped right in with both feet anyway.

Which only happens every 10 years for those of you that don't know. So it's a huge deal in our town.

Your first irrigation days was a once in a decade event. Nice.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

It's crazy. So the rest seem very easy, right?

Right.

Well, I'm sure. I'm sure. So the other thing though is like thinking about what we do, what the chamber does today. What are, so let's talk about the park cuz I, okay. We, I'm sure I would, we looked at our show notes. I think we touched on it.

I'm pretty sure we did.

I would've assumed because it was in February of '24, but now like let's talk about our first, let's talk about our first summer of it being open. And what it was like for you. Just tell me anything you want, and then I've got some questions that I'm thinking about.

Well, we officially named it, so it's now Union Square, which was very fun. We involved the community in that. Everyone got a vote in the names, and then the board chose, and yeah, people love it. This summer, it became the hub for which was called the Summer Music Series, which the chamber and Active Arts teamed together. Active Arts got a grant for bands. I scheduled all of it and made sure that they were here and we did them on a regular basis. It was so fun. Closed off the main street one block and we had businesses open at night. And yes, it was great. The Active Arts also came back and had a summer theater group come and do a play for kids, which was phenomenal.

It really was.

I really hope they do it again.

I hope so too. I hope so too. And that was an event that my very, like, I had a lot of thoughts, of course, because I don't just— I'm not like just a simple person. I take things in and then I think about like 15 other things. But anyway, I was sitting there and the park was just packed. I mean, it was actually just packed full of people. And I thought to myself, this is such— to me, this is such a great testament to the fact that sometimes we do have to build it before we'll know exactly what's going to happen in it. Like, if you build it, they will come. Like, doesn't sound like a strategy. And yet, it's not as if— you know, it's not as if you could have gone to anybody and said, we're going to build this park exclusively for summer theater troupes, like, for children's theater. And they would have been like, what?

Yeah. Right?

So it's just— for me, it was just that understanding. Because I have felt that way with our space here, right? There have been things that have happened in this building that I never could have anticipated ever.

Right.

So sometimes you have to create the space and then be open enough to letting people use it. And that's something I think you guys do exceptionally well. Like that space is a community space. It belongs to the chamber, which like, can we just talk for a second about that, that kind of arc of owning it? And just because I, it really wasn't, it didn't take 6 months of meetings for you guys to decide you wanted to do it. No. Well, it was really impressive.

You touched on this earlier. We have a 9-person board and they represent different businesses, whether we try to keep the board owners that are owners in a business, some that, you know, are employees of a business, and that we don't have all the same types of businesses. Yeah. So it's a very diverse board. It doesn't. They decided this is what they wanted to do and they're like, we're going after it. And some were very, very scared. About what we were doing and the whole transformation of that. I think we've talked about that a couple times, that it was amazing to watch that. The other thing is that, yes, the chamber owns it. It also is a benefit if you are a member of our chamber. You can utilize it for free.

Mm-hmm, for, yeah, whatever you want to do.

Yes, you contact me, I put you on the calendar.

Yep.

It's yours for the day, the evening, whatever. If you're not a chamber member, then yes, we will rent the space to you, which we've had that happen already too.

Right.

Right.

It's just, it's just been so fun and we've only had one whole season of use out of it.

I know.

Since it's been done, we just dedicated it this summer. So I just think that was, to me, I mean, obviously I was a, I was a part of it with you. Um, but such a, such an audacious thing for a Chamber of Commerce to do. And also I think it's, it's worth noting, uh, nobody can get people to volunteer for boards, right? Like this is a thing I hear everywhere I go. Do you have that problem filling the Chamber of Commerce board positions?

We haven't. I mean, we haven't had to beg anybody.

But I think that's the point. That's my point. Yes, and say it. Yes, say it because it's important.

It is. And in fact, you know, we have term limits on the board and we have some that now they have to get off because they've been on the board, but they love being on it. They're like, you know what? I'm going to And I've actually heard this from two of them that are now going off, like, I'm gonna miss it.

Yeah. Well, and then they can come back, right? After, is it a year?

Yes.

Okay.

They can come back.

So, so, okay. I wanna say this because, because like this is such a challenge for people. First of all, if you're, if you are working or operating with a board and you do not have term limits, please, please, please do that. Please put them there. It actually is a best practice for a reason. And what do you think the benefits are to that? Like, just obviously, because I think there are certain boards that we're both aware of, even here, where you're just like, it's kind of wild that there's not term limits.

Well, the benefit to that is, I mean, just like you talked about young people coming to town. Well, if you do not have term limits on your board and you have people that, and there's nothing wrong with this, you've been in business for 25 years, you've been sitting on the chamber board, How is this new person who maybe wants to get involved, how are they going to do that? Right. They're not.

Right.

And even on our chamber board, we have brand new business owners on that board who make it very exciting. You have to have the mix.

Yep. Yeah. So that's one thing. So what is, so just what are your terms? What are your terms, term limits, and then what's the rules about getting back on?

So, okay. If we vote on the officers, so if you're vice president, you will be the president the next year the president comes off.

Yeah, and that's just a given, which again, I think we just talked about that this morning. That's good continuity, right? So you know for sure that at least those leadership roles are filled and that person's gonna know what's going on.

Right.

Yeah.

And there's 9 positions. They are on a rotational base. So, you know, like there's 3 coming off now. And then next year, I think there's— is there 2 or 3? And it's on a rotational basis.

Staggered terms, right? So again, just talking about this, because I think the fact that you usually— what's your election process look like for officers? Not for— sorry, not for officers, but just for regular directors. Yeah.

So what we do is we ask— it's out there for anyone. If you are interested in being on the chamber board, or you own a business and you think you have an employee that would make a great chamber board member, submit their name. Of course, let them know that you've submitted their name.

Yeah, you don't get voluntold to be on the chamber board.

Yeah, and then we put a ballot together. Everyone, every business gets one vote, right? And so that's how we determine.

Yeah, and most—

it's pretty simple actually.

Most years In recent history, you've had more nominees.

Yes. Than positions.

More candidates than positions available. And again, I'm only, I'm only pointing this out because this is not the story with a lot of boards. Why do you think that is, Kasia? Like, what are some of the things that you think is happening on the chamber board that is, that is making that the case that people want to be a part of it? The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough, and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge, and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you.

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Well, I think because some of the exciting things that are going on, I mean, Union Square for one, I mean, that's to me, I mean, all you have to do is drive by that and you're like, I want to be a part of whatever is going on right there.

Yeah.

I mean, it's vibrant. It makes it seem like you are definitely not in small town North Dakota.

For sure. For sure.

And the board is very progressive and they're easy to work with. I mean, I sit on some other boards too. I'm on one that I have been on since 2009 when it started. And there's been a lot of changes and I've backed off of that one. I'm still very involved. I just don't want an actual title.

Right.

Right.

Well, I'll say, because again, it's not easy to be like, I think it's me. Like you as the director, I think a lot of it is you. Um, I think the board, the board knows what to expect. You onboard them properly, as in, why don't you talk through that? Why don't you share, like, just share with, again, cuz I think this is board best practices. This is part of the reason I think our chamber is so successful. It's not just we're doing things differently, but there's efficiency and there's good governance that kind of supports everybody. So how do you onboard your members? So, or your directors?

There is, you will get a bind, an official chamber binder, and, and that it, um, It lists, you know, these are the things that as a board member you're responsible for. Here, of course, Robert's Rules of Order. I know, so that's going to drive some people.

Well, and that's okay. I mean, that's how you run your meetings. That's fine.

Well, and you know, you need some type of guidance.

Yep.

We used to have Chamber Ambassadors where you were in charge of so many businesses. Well, now the chamber list is pretty extensive. It's not all an oaks. It's just, and I'll say it, it's just easier for me to do it.

Right.

And I'm a little, as you maybe said, OCD. I don't think you said that.

I didn't say that. I said you're organizational and yet still fun to hang out with.

Yes. And I stand by that. Sometimes it was hard for me to be like, here's your list and oh man, I hope that it, you know. Right.

It is.

It's just easier for me. I know the businesses. I know who to contact. And it really became where that wasn't something we needed to do anymore. So that's gone away.

Right.

Yeah.

I think that we started that under my— I was again on the board at the time. And that's such a great example of something that seems like a great idea. And it's not that the idea didn't work.

Right.

But if you come into play— place, like as the director, and you feel like you can handle it, then you don't have the need for that. I have a strong suspicion someday in the future we may need to resurrect a version of that. That, right?

Correct.

It's possible. But that's also, there's fluidity. And that's what I think when you say progressive, that's what I think this board has is they're really willing to try new things. They're willing to revisit old ideas. Like there's just, they say yes more than they say no. You know, there's, I think there's an openness and a positivity to the chamber board.

And there's not a— you know, there's some boards where you feel like, oh my gosh, that's all I do is work on this board. And it's great because usually it's something that you're passionate about. But then it also becomes like, is somebody else please going to help me?

Mm-hmm.

And I don't think— and I hope they can tell me differently— but I really don't think that that's how this one works that way.

It certainly isn't perceived that way.

No.

And again, like, you wouldn't have people raising their hand to be on this board. And we're talking every year. Uh, you have, like, this is a consistent thing. This isn't just a fluke. It's not like, oh my gosh, we had more candidates this year. You have that every year.

Yes.

And so I wanted to just, like, really hammer on that because again, I think, I think it all comes down to, like, if you're struggling to get people involved, we have to take a hard look in the mirror and ask ourselves those questions. Like, What are we doing that's making it feel yucky? Is it where we're meeting? Is it the time of day we're meeting? You can literally dismantle all of it. Be willing to take a look at all of it.

You talked about time.

That's something.

The time has been— it changes. Because when we put the new board together, okay, maybe you own the business. Okay, can you take this time off? Or you're an employee. Will your employer allow you to take this hour? If not, what's the best Right. And so coming up on 2026, depending who is on the board, will decide what time and what day.

Yep.

Right.

And every single year you let that be a point of revisiting, right? Yes. Which is just so important. I, and that sounds so dumb and so simple, but it's not.

No, because it makes it easier for people to be on the board.

It becomes a barrier. You know, if it's at a time when nobody can attend it, it becomes a barrier.

Yes.

Or it only serves a small percentage of people versus, you know, being more open.

And you want the board to be diverse. So in order for that to happen, you need to be open to having it at different times that are convenient for everyone on the board.

Correct.

And maybe anybody else that wants to come because it is open.

Right, right. Okay. It's just, I just think it's been so much fun. It's been so much fun to watch the chamber just continue to excel in this community. So let's talk a little bit about beautification.

Okay.

Uh, just because Because I think that traditionally— okay, and traditionally maybe isn't fair, but in a lot of other communities, that really falls under the city. And I'll say other— we're in North Dakota. We're really talking about beautification during those summer months primarily.

You get 3 months of beautification.

Yeah, it's only beautiful for 3 months, but there's a few things that that you as, as the chamber director have kind of, you, let's say maybe you spearhead it and maybe the city still does a piece of it, but like just talk through and talk through kind of how that became and why.

Okay.

Right. Like why, why is the chamber doing these things when, because again, we could all be like, the city should do it. You know what? We can say that all day long, but you're not the city. So until you become the city, Right. Whatever that even means to you, right? People just say things like that. Like, "I think the city should do it." What are you even talking about? Who do you think they are?

Right. And they have so, they only have so many hours and so many employees. Totally.

Right.

So how it got started goes back to my very first irrigation days, which was the all-school reunion, which is huge.

Mm-hmm.

Because it brings people from all over the United States back to Oaks for 4 days.

Right.

And so we wanna make our town look as great as it can be. Somebody in the community said, "I really wish we could bring the flowers back." And I'm like, "Well, why don't we? Like, what, what, how does this work? What can I do? How do I get it going?" And so of course I asked for some funding to get the flowers. I found we had the pots from before. Right. Worked with the greenhouse and we just kind of started it. I actually, I did a lot of the watering the first year, and then I've tweaked it every year, which has been fun. You know, then we went volunteers. I was begging people to help me, and then we had it on the chamber board, had a great member that said, "I think the businesses should have to do it, and if they don't want to, they can pay." They can pay, and then we'll pay someone to. Yes. So that was—

I literally, I can literally picture every year of like, And I love it because every year you and I will talk about it and he'll be like, "This still isn't really working." I'm like, "Okay, okay, so what can we do now? What did we do this last year?" So we actually contracted it out.

And, you know, but there again, I'm still making sure that, you know, we have a tank and we have some great volunteers that help me with that. There's a gentleman in town, You had his wife on the podcast.

Yes.

And he's always willing to help, like if I've got something wrong with the water tank and fixing that and making sure it's great.

But yeah, yeah.

So that was one thing with the beautification and how that came about.

And the thing is, why, why, why did the chamber— so tell me, like, what was the motivation? Why did the chamber say, we'll figure this out? Why did you— not the chamber, but you— why did you say?

Because, yes, I want I take pride in Oaks, and that is not my mailing address, but this is where my kids went to school. Yep. You know, if I say my address is Verona, it's where my husband graduated, a lot of people don't know where it's at. So sometimes you say, well, Oaks, they kind of have an idea.

And they go, oh, sure.

Yeah. But yeah, I live here too. I work here. I want it to look great. And I'm like, well, let's just do it. Let's figure it out.

Yeah. And I, again, I just wanna, I just wanna call that out, that behavior out instead of saying, well, why doesn't somebody, you know? And that's what I love about you is that it's very much like, well, we can figure this out. And then you just do it. And it hasn't always been easy. I think the idea that there have been several years where you've done more watering than anybody else, like that's not, that's actually not in your job description at all.

Right.

But there you are giving, you know, giving your time. But it's because it makes our community just They are so beautiful.

Oh, they do. They look fantastic.

So great.

And the board, when I'm bringing this idea to them, they're like, yes, what?

You know, how can we help? What can we do? All the things, right?

Exactly. You know, if you don't have a board like that, you can come in with this idea and they'll be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Again, that's somebody else's, you know, why, why are we and all those? But that's not how they operate.

And they're like, "Okay, let's—" Well, and I think that's the other thing, going back to why people want to be on your board, is because you're known for doing stuff. There are plenty of boards that you can be a part of that you have your regular meetings and you meet every single month and you barely do anything. And it's just not fun. Right. Because I think people— and I think that's something that needs to continue to be pushed and shifted in our communities as we all get older and we want to— this whole idea of making room for young people, we have to be willing to adjust the way we do things. Yes. To make it easier for them to get involved. And that's why I just say, like, if you're, if you're listening to this and you're like, how do we get more candidates than open positions? Oh my God, that's all anybody wants. Honestly, be willing, take a look at every single part of how you run the thing. And shift some of it. Right. Ask them what would— ask people what would make this easier for you to be a part of. But I think the bigger thing, the most important thing, is that you guys actually accomplish things that are worthwhile, that are meaningful, and that feel fun and exciting to be a part of because you're making the community better.

Well, and this music in the park this summer was— it was so fun. Oh my goodness. It was so fun to see The people that came, the bands that were here, and even the bands were just like, wow, like, this is the space that we get?

My favorite. It was so fun to hear them.

They were not expecting what they got, for sure. Yep.

Yep. And that's— there's nothing better than hearing that and getting that feedback.

Well, and there again, we had to, you know, work with We had to make sure that we contacted the city. Can we block off Main Street? You know, can, you know, the police came and helped. Our city workers made sure the barricades were up and took them down for us. You're working with everybody again, you know, garbage. We're going to have to have some extra garbage cans, you know, those type of things. Yep. And everybody worked together and look what happened.

I know it's just so much fun. And I think what's fun about this, I, You know, looking back at our previous episode, I just think you should honestly come on here at least a couple more times before, like, whenever you decide to stop doing this. It's just, it's just, again, I think you are such a great example of a person in an institution that has kind of— there's a traditional way or view of what a chamber does. And I think, I think the hard truth is that it, it shouldn't look exactly the same in every community because every community has different needs. Exactly.

And every community, whether what is, what drives that community. Absolutely. Yes, we're all rural and yes, we're mostly an ag state, but that doesn't mean that that is totally everything that drives that. Right. I also think that I view it a little differently because I don't live in town. Right. And so when I come to town, like, you know, what brings me here? Granted, I'm going to shop here. There are things that I need, but I also want to come for the other things. And I know I'm just this— I'm rural. I don't want to drive to Fargo for that. I would much rather come. If I can get a bluegrass band across the street in Union Square on a Tuesday night in the summer, I'm going to go there.

Right. And the thing is, it's like— and I just, I hope that once we have this like little consortium of local chambers and we all can get somewhat on the same page about the value of promoting each other's stuff, that all that continues to do is get better, bigger and better, you know, every single year. Because that's, that's just it. We need everybody around us to know about the Music in the Park because that, that is, it is true that Fargo is not that big of a hop. Aberdeen's not that big of a drive. Like it's, those things are true. But again, if we'll drive that far, we'll drive a half an hour.

Exactly.

And so we just need, we just, and I'm super excited about this cuz I just think regionalism is kind of, it's an often, I think, overlooked opportunity for small towns to actually link arms and show up as a region for all the people that live there, for all the people looking for something cool to do, for all the people that live here that say, hey, I've got an aunt and uncle coming to to town, what should we do this weekend? Right? Then it's like, if you've got a way that you all communicate, you can see what is going on and make a total day or a weekend out of touring your region. Yes. You know, like that's really possible. And some of my favorite things are when we come upon something either unexpected. And so it's even better the idea of like we could plan it because we know what's going on. I hate it when I miss things. I know. And I'm like, I totally would've gone to that. I just didn't know about it. And that's nobody's fault. It's just, it's noisy and it's loud and it's hard. It's hard to be heard.

Well, in, okay, in my age group and older, we're the Facebook users.

And it's okay. We are. I still am too, because it's how we, it's how we communicate things.

And if you don't specifically go and look for that, You're not going to find it. Right. And that is frustrating too. But again, I agree with you. If we all collaborate together, you know, what are you doing? Well, let's make sure we don't plan something on the same weekend or the same night in the summer.

Absolutely.

Right. So that all people can go back and forth.

Well, and can you imagine just the value in 2026 because I, I do hope that we pull this group together in January, right? Like, so we, we basically can say, let's create a template for a monthly calendar. Yes. Right? And can you imagine at the beginning of every month it comes out and it's like regional, regional happenings or whatever we're gonna call it, right? And everybody that wants to be a part of it is agreeing to share their stuff, and then every single one of them promotes those things. Yeah, I just, I, I think we got it. We're gonna have to think about like how the heck do we track this and the success of it. Um, but I just think the other big thing too, it's not just the promotion of, of these events, it's truly the support network that you're gonna create with all of you. Yes. Because my goodness, to, to build those connections, to build that camaraderie, that, and, and knowing like we're not actually competing against each other at all. We are all trying to do the same work in our respective places. Why wouldn't we want to help each other get better?

Well, and to have— I mean, yes, you and I bounce ideas off of each other, but like I said earlier, when I was in an office over there by myself and you're only— I'm only here 20 hours a week. Right. And I get this harebrained idea and I mean, I totally feel for anybody that's starting and is in a small town and going, I don't know if this is what I should be doing.

Well, and I think that's it too. Like, I've, I've had the last job I had that I worked for somebody else. I was recruited into a position that they created. And it's almost like every single time somebody, the chamber director turns over, you're in that position almost. And the hardest part about it is that when it's not super clear and you already have up to 9 bosses, right? Because you've got 9 board members. Then you also have like all of the stakeholders that have opinions, and that's really a lot to handle. It's a lot to bear up under. And I think you've just done such a beautiful job of navigating it. And I think so many of the young— especially not even younger, but just newer— the people that are newer to the position, their age isn't relevant, right? But They're gonna benefit from you just talking about how you approach things, whether they do exactly what you do or not. Cuz I think, I think that's the thing too, is like people that everybody that comes to this town, I mean, I, I swear it's, we're really well, we're, this little town is really well known for looking great and having cool stuff to do. That's like what, what people think of Oaks.

Yes. Well, and.

That's what I think of Oaks.

We want to continue that. And if you don't change or move along with the new idea, and maybe it is quirky, I don't know, but let's give it a try, then that's going to go away.

100%. 100%. And so I just think that's— so to me, it's not like fear of, oh my gosh, they're going to steal our ideas. No. The way I feel about it, I'm like, If you wanna try to steal the idea of Union Square for your town, please do.

Right. Right. Like, have at it. I, it's, and if you wanna know how we did it, we will tell you.

We'll tell you. A hundred percent.

I just, that's why I love it. I don't want it to be a secret.

Yeah. I, I don't, that's, and that's a different mentality. I think that's hard for a lot of people to embrace because it feels like somehow you're giving up the specialness by sharing it. And the truth is, It becomes whatever they make of it. Well, because it will change.

Of course. I mean, I can— it'll be different. I think it was the Rural Summit the first year you had it. Yep. And there was— there's a lady in Iowa and they have— it's called Rural Route Ramble or something.

That's what it's called. Yes.

And I was like, oh my gosh, this is the coolest thing. And what do they do? They have a workbook. That you can and change it and make it your own. And I'm like, so why aren't we doing that kind of stuff with our own events or our own things that we are doing? Like, you can have this, but just make it your own. Don't steal it. Just ask me how we did it and then make it your own.

And that's the whole thing. It's like even the best advice for businesses, it's like you could give away. They're not trade secrets. Like, some things are trade secrets. What we're talking about is not a trade secret because it's it still relies on their resources, right? The people that they have, the assets that they have, the things that they've got in their community. It's gonna look different because it's their town. Right. But I just think again, if Lamoore wants to do something like Union Square and then they start hosting public things that our residents can go over and enjoy, why not? Why not? And that doesn't hurt Oaks. No, it only strengthens it. The more we get into our neighboring towns building relationships participating in stuff, the more we become like one big place instead of just a bunch of independent little towns. We need each other. That's— that's absolutely the bottom line. Okay. I, uh, I just want to thank you for coming back. Well, thank you for having me. Thanks for walking the few steps from your desk to hop on the mic with us today. I just— all official. I know we're so official. I'm just so— I'm so proud of you. Like, I always just You and your board are such a source of pride for our community, and you just continue to, you continue to do things extremely well. You never overextend yourselves, but you keep somehow pushing the envelope too. And that's just a really unique thing that you don't see a lot of times in Chambers of Commerce. And so I love my friend Jeff Sigler, but he's wrong about this one when it comes to you especially. You guys just continue to make our community better. And again, maybe we should talk about this. How many chamber members do you have? We're like, you're in membership renewal season right now. Maybe who, how many did you have in '25? I believe we had 150. 150 individual business members.

That's, and so we did change that too.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that. You've made some adjustments to your levels. And stuff.

Yes. Yeah. So I think it was either year 2 or 3, I brought to the board, I'm like, I feel like we're missing a sector. There's like this whole home-based businesses. Like, okay, we're, again, we're rural. If I want to know where to go get something, and I mean, you can call out any direct selling or, or it's even, it's a business from home where you do some custom work on shirts or caps or whatever.

Exactly.

How do I find that? I have to know somebody that knows somebody. So let's tap into that and put them on the chamber membership. It's a lesser fee because of course they don't have the retail that we have on Main Street. Right. So we added those. We also added organizations because again, you're trying to get people into your organization, get people on those boards. It's all volunteer. They also pay a small fee. And that's all of that is available through the chamber. All those numbers, the contacts, how to find them. And so that's how we kind of added.

Well, and I think that part of it is like, that's part of what you're doing by doing that is like you just said, making it easier for newcomers especially to navigate. Because when so much of your community, it's like you have to know someone to know how to get an answer. Like, that's not— it feels cool, but it's actually exclusive to our detriment.

Well, even if you live here sometimes.

Yeah, you don't know.

You're like, okay, so I want to get this screen print for Christmas on a sweatshirt.

How do I? Who does that?

You just start asking your friends, like, do you know anybody in town that does this? Well, why isn't that business listed with the chamber?

Exactly. Exactly. Oh, and so I just wanted to call that out because I think that's super val— I mean, it's incredible. 150 businesses and members, I should say. Members. It's a lot of members for a town of 1,750. It's a lot of people. And again, you've proven over time that if the chamber share— I mean, you get a lot of traction on your social media, right? The marketing, the fact that you do an email blast to the members. Again, you've got the Midweek Focus on the radio. You've got a good connection with our newspaper when it's appropriate to do all of that. It's just, you just do such a great job and you make, you amplify the voices of our local businesses. Every member that decides to be a part of it.

Well, and the other thing you mentioned, it's Oaks Area Chamber of Commerce. If you look at our addresses, they don't all say—

What's the furthest one away that you have?

Oh, I would have to look. I'm not for sure. We do have area, I mean, area towns listed because, yeah, I mean, why not? If they choose, they choose to be a member of our chamber because You do such a great job because you can, you can be a member of our chamber. You don't have to have an Oaks address. That's not a stipulation.

That's right. That's one more way.

If you do that, that's one more way of just— it's exclusive, but I don't know that it, it's, um, it doesn't— I don't think it makes it easier, right?

Yeah, right, exactly. You just do such a great job marketing, uh, on behalf of our businesses. It's just It's just fun. It is. I know. It's so fun. I love, and I love having, we, you know, we get the benefit of hosting cool stuff for the chamber. Like what? So maybe just for the fun of like, what's one of the things coming up for Christmas?

So we are doing a gingerbread making contest and last year was our first year. And it was brought by a board member who is actually grew up in a neighboring town and she's like, they do this in our town. I think it's really fun. We should try it. No, I'm like, why not? Of course, one of the businesses in town raised their hand and said, we will sponsor it, we'll give away Oaks Bucks as prizes. Yeah, right. And so we did divisions. I mean, and there were some houses that were just like, oh my gosh, these people are very talented. It's—

I love this so much because again, it's like our local creativity showcase that's going on right now. Exactly. Where you kind of go, oh my God, I had no idea that— I mean, we had a couple of houses last year where I just kept saying like, how long did this take them?

And there was one that had the little card, right?

With like how many family members got together and did it together.

Oh, it was so cool. Yes. So we are doing that again and I'm excited because now everybody knows. They kind of, they've, we've done it once. They get the idea. Yep. Um, I even talked to your daughter. I'm like, get your house, get started on this.

Oh, we had such a Pinterest fail of a gingerbread house last year. It was so bad. And she's just like, we almost both were crying. I think we both cried a little bit. I was like, I don't know how to fix this. So we'll have to— and you were like, you have time now. Yeah. So we'll have to see if we can, if we can get our act together and submit a house. But that's such a fun additional thing just to kind of leave the listeners with on this episode. It's like, it's someplace in your community has to be the place where people can bring ideas and the first thing they hear isn't, well, that's never gonna work. Yes. And the Chamber of Commerce is one of those places. I hope our building is an extension of that too. Like, you walk in here and if you say like, I have this idea, or I saw this in another place, we're just like the kind of people to be like, well, that's cool. You know, like, how do, how, how do we do that? What do we do? And, and then again, it's like once you do that, that's where I think, I think what you continue to demonstrate, and your whole board too, is what, what, what gets created when you lead with enthusiasm, positivity, and it becomes something that other people catch. You know, that's why like suddenly it's all you're doing is some gingerbread houses and then a business is like, oh my gosh, I love that. Or you never know, someone might say, ah, we used to do that either in my community or my family was involved, or whatever. And you give people a way to show up for stuff, but someone's got to say, hey, let's try it. Exactly. And so I guess if you don't have a Chamber of Commerce and you're not lucky enough to have one like we do, what would it look like to be that, to be that voice of yes, that voice of possibility, that voice of like, what if we tried it? Because worst case scenario, amazing what happens.

Yes, worst case scenario, it doesn't work. Well, you tried.

And big whoop, right? Exactly. I think sometimes we're like, oh, what if it doesn't work? Well, what if it doesn't? So you now, you have one more way that something doesn't work. Okay.

And I can guarantee you, even if it didn't, there is a positive there. Yep.

You learned, you learned something, you made a new connection, you discovered some talent you didn't know existed, what have you, right? Yeah. I just think I, I, we're really lucky that we have it organized in such a beautiful fashion, but. I want to encourage everybody to think about how do you become a community where ideas can, they can land somewhere. Yeah, where you're not afraid to bring them.

Not afraid to try.

Exactly. Yeah. So thanks, Paul. Thanks for being that person in our town. We're so lucky to have you. Thank you. It's my favorite thing in the world to be like, oh, you have a chamber problem? We don't. But we also want, again, and for any of our local area people that are listening to this, we're really excited about this potential collaboration and bringing people together and helping everybody get a little bit better at it. And I'm sure we'll learn things too. Oh, absolutely. You know, that's just what happens.

That's a way to learn and it's a way to bring those ideas and to know you're not alone.

Thanks for doing all you do for our community. We're so lucky to have you. Thanks. We hope you loved this episode of the Growing Small Towns show. We encourage you to leave us messages at 701-203-3337, and be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at growingsmalltowns.org. In the meantime, keep doing what you can with what you have, right where you are—your community. Community needs you.

Because we are growing small towns. We are growing small towns. We're right here living our best It's lives as crazy as it sounds, but we are growing small towns, growing small towns. We are growing small towns. We are growing small towns.