S5:E5 - Recruiting the Next Generation at Work with Brodie Mueller

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Brody Mueller. He's back. And, uh, Brody is the founder and current owner of The Market on the Plaza in Aberdeen, South Dakota. They are a sandwich, beer, and coffee shop. And I invited him back to really discuss an offhanded comment he had made in a previous episode about how when he's hiring for his, uh, his he conducts a quote-unquote vibe check. And I just think it's so fun to meet somebody like Brody that has a true innate quality about how to select people that are right for his organization. But then just saying like, okay, how do we actually identify? What are the markers of that innate knowing for those of us that maybe don't operate with such a gut reaction to humans? He's running this organization. Some of the things we talk about are truly research-based, researched principles of engagement. You know, how do we get people to love our business as much as we do? I'm going to tell you right now, that's actually really hard and maybe isn't exactly the target. It's yours, right? You might never hire people that love it as much as you do. It is possible to get people that feel empowered, feel a sense of ownership, and genuinely love the place where they work. And big picture here at Growing Small Towns, we think that's one of the fastest ways to shape culture. In a community is help the employers create cultures that are unforgettable for their employees. So enjoy this episode with our friend Brody Mueller. Hey Brody, what's going on? Welcome back.

Thank you very much.

Uh, people better get used to your big beautiful voice.

This, this sounds so silky smooth in here. I like it.

It is so silky smooth.

We are brand new machine.

Tell us all about it. Uh, I actually I'm gonna leave that to you because you're the one that understands it. All I know is it is a beaut.

It is. I have the, I have the previous version of this, so I am a little—

make you sad?

I'm a little jelly. Yeah, it doesn't make me sad, it makes me so excited for you. But, uh, yeah, I mean, it's— I'm not gonna go out and buy it even though I really want to because the older version works great. But it's— so for those interested, it's, uh, called the RODECaster Pro 2 is what she has. I have the RODECaster Pro 1. You could probably find it for cheaper on eBay now if they have this one, but it's super user-friendly. Lots of lights. The screen is great.

It's— and there's incredible sound effects. I feel like we should just randomly insert some for them. Yeah, let's— we should let them have it. Oh yeah, get your groove on.

Some baby-making music right here. It is.

And it was so funny because my kid was in here. I mean, listen, right? Isn't that great? And then it's— there's a couple other ones that my son was like, oh my, oh my God, that's hilarious. Yeah, so we were giggling. Um, yeah, the record scratch. F— hit the upper— the air horn. Yes, I know, it's so funny. I literally— if, if I ever bring, um, my middle son, who you just met a few minutes ago, if I ever bring him in here to record, I will literally just say Whenever you feel like you need a little, you just hit a button. Like, it's fun.

You work the beat. That is too fun.

Isn't it? Dollars.

I know. Turn that off. I'm gonna play with the lights.

I know. We giggled and giggled and giggled. So yeah, it's been, it's been pretty great and it's, it's super fun. So, um, just to also like round out the context, we are in Oaks, North Dakota, right? In a dedicated room where we've now set it up as a podcast studio. And it's, it's just. It's— it feels like it's leveling us up a bit, which is really special. It's like, um, this whole time the podcast has been my favorite way to connect with people. And, um, some of my favorite— I like— I actually have met— I shouldn't say met, like, met air quotes, right? Virtually have met people that they've reached out and said, oh my God, I love this, and I— this is what we're doing. And then you get that cool feedback from people all over the country. It's just been— it's been the coolest way to kind of spread different ideas, spread ways of doing things in rural communities all around the world.

Thankfully. Well, and good job sticking with it. It's been 4 years, right?

4 full years, yeah.

And so that's huge. Most people don't make it past like 6 episodes.

So, you're doing great. I know, I know. It's a real thing. But I think it really does come down to like, I have an insatiable curiosity. I really do. And when I get to talk to people, especially if people are, and by the way, like as we're talking about this, people should know like, if you know somebody that you really think they should be on the show, send us a note. I mean, that's what we do. That is totally what we do. Um, but I just love to talk to people that are doing things you wouldn't expect. Yeah, in a small town, it's just the coolest thing.

And podcasting is really— it makes the world very small, right?

And it does.

It's all easy to connect with each other now. So yeah, we'd love to hear your story.

I know. Well, and, um, again, for those that maybe aren't remembering or they'll listen to it at some point in this episode, you're producing our show.

I am.

And so thankful for that. And I think it's really cool to be able to say that it's locally recorded and produced.

Absolutely.

You know, right here. So, okay, I'm super excited to talk to you about something that you casually mentioned in a previous episode. And again, kind of in light of this direction that we're moving in programmatically, Which I think is also, I'm really open to kind of talking about how the sausage is made, so to speak, like, because that's the thing people really want to know is how are you making this work or how are you doing this, right? And so being very honest about the fact that just because we started out in a certain direction and economic development was such a big part of it for a number of years, and to then say, actually, we're pivoting away from that specific work coming alongside the industry, all the things, right? Um, I think in light of that direction, that move kind of towards org development for small towns, which I just think is so important, the casual thing you dropped in this other episode was, um, that your way of attracting and hiring people for the market, uh, is a vibe check. And so Yes, folks, you're going to get so much air horn.

I dropped it like it's hot.

I think that's super important. I do. I mean, I think it's super important to articulate a bit more about what that means because I've got some core beliefs about these things. I'm going to share just a couple of them right now, and this will tee us up. Okay. Choosing where to work. It's actually a very big decision. And local employers like yourself, how many people do you have working for you right now?

10. One on maternity leave.

10 is a big number of staff. And so one of the core beliefs that I have is that local employers, when they do a great job of actually being a great place to work— because being a great place to work isn't just about the tasks themselves, it's about the vibe, right? It's about, do I feel like I'm treated like a human? Am I treated with respect? Are my unique my unique makeup, is it noted and is it given an avenue to shine, right? These are, and these are studied things. These aren't just my core beliefs, but I get really jacked up about this cuz it's something, especially small, small employers like yourself and small towns. We, these are things that we can implement tomorrow.

Mm-hmm.

Should we want to. And my, my second part of this premise is that those 10 people, because they work with you and they feel all of those things, they're making the community better. Like, the fastest way for us to actually change the culture of a town is to uplevel the culture of our workforce. And that's in every single business.

Yeah.

Right? And it's also something you can change.

Right.

Because I think sometimes people want to talk about communities like, we're all on the same page with a vision. And I'm like, how? Right. How are you doing that? Because like, what I need to feel good in my community might be different from what you need. And yet somehow, like, the city leaders are expected to serve all of us. It's actually a daunting task. So when I've thought about this and I've experienced it, right, like being in economic development, feeling like, oh my God, I just— I can't serve— I can't serve everybody. And my energy is finite, right? And my passion, like, I want to direct it where it wants to go instead of being like, but you wear that hat, therefore everybody's needs matter. It was just like, totally overwhelming.

Yeah.

So now we're kind of back in where I feel like not only we're equipped to, you know, to help, but I get to talk to people like you that have an innate sense about this. And my goal is like, how do we help people that don't have the innate sense? Like, what are some of the things we can talk through? Like, the practical things we can talk to—

sure—

that create a vibe check, right? I think it's funny, right? People like me are like, oh, vibe check, I get it. And then there's like analytical people that are running businesses that are like, what does that mean? So, well, that's a huge tee-up, but I felt it was important.

So I'll preface this by saying, like, okay, so obviously there are hard and soft skills, right? So if you are running a software company, you need somebody who can code, like, first and foremost, top of the list. They have to be able to do the job, right? However, there are thousands of jobs out there that are— we call them entry-level or whatever, um, but— or they're primarily customer service based, right? And, and we need those people. So when I look for people to hire. I don't have like— and I'm very bad at procedures and standard operating procedures and SOPs and, and all of that. So I, I'm, I'm trying to be better. However, when it comes to hiring, I feel pretty okay with my process, which is largely a conversation, because I can teach any monkey to pull a shot of espresso. That's not difficult. I— everyone can make a sandwich. The cooking that we're doing there is not Michelin star game-changing stuff.

It is quite delicious though.

It is delicious, thank you, but it's not complicated. It's not complicated. What I care more about is that you are furthering the mission of the place with your attitude and with your customer service.

Okay, so can we stop there for a quick question? So you actually have a stated mission?

Uh, no.

Okay, so, so say more about that.

Okay, yeah, so I— this is something I'm trying to solidify this year, right? So when it comes to company culture, the best way I've heard it, uh, expressed is people— we, we work at The Market and therefore we do things this way. Yeah, I, I've hired people over the years who have worked at other coffee shops and I appreciate their input, but here at the market, this is how we're going to do it.

Yeah.

And it creates us— ideally, it creates a sense of identity, right? And we do this with our kids too. We're Mueller, so we are hospitable and we are generous and we are, um, good hosts. And, you know, all this thing. And it— the kids start to instill that. So I'm trying to do that. So no, I don't— I, like, I have a mission statement that I kind of roll around with, and I have my why and things like that. I don't do a really good job of expressing that to my employees quite yet.

Okay, well, you're on the— I think you're on— I think you're on the right path, right? Yeah, because like what you're talking about, it aren't even just— it isn't even just a mission, it's also values, right? So do you— have you created a set of stated values? Because like, let me just— I just want to repeat back to you, like reflect back to you. For you to say we're Muellers, like as in your family, therefore we are hospitable, we are, you know, like that's what— that's all company values are, right? And I think I think, and I'm so passionate about values. And again, I can geek out all day long talking about how important they are. Where they're not important and ineffective is when somebody at the top of your company, even if it's the owner, is like, let's create company values. And then they go out to Google and they're like, what are good values for a coffee and sandwich shop, right? AI, Google, like you can find, you can find those answers.

Yep.

And the ones that are gonna matter are the ones that are true for you.

Yep.

And that you say, this is what matters and you get to do that. And that's the other thing with small businesses. I wanna be like, you get to, mm-hmm, you get to say, this is what, this is how we do things around here, which is exactly how I define culture, by the way. Yep. That just to distill it right down. And also just to remind people that in the absence of a definition, a culture still gets created.

Yeah.

And that those— the default cultures are almost always the dysfunctional ones.

Absolutely.

So I love this, and I love that you're— and again, like, that's something I want to help you do, that like, let's have a little sit-down chat, we'll create those things.

I guess part of the things that we've— I've discovered by accident, or values I've discovered by accident, that kind of— I, I know what I'm doing for the most part, but I, I guess I didn't set out to do it this way. But I, I have instilled in my staff that I am not the end-all be-all. I'm not the decision maker necessarily.

And I'm not the person with all the answers.

And I'm not the person with all the answers. So all of the, the, the drink features that, that we, we do, I don't come up with those. I, I have set them free to go and do that. I, I regularly will say, okay, tell me no, but what about this? And, well, you know, I'll throw a crazy idea out, and if it's some— most of the time it's met with, uh, I don't know. And so we workshop it a little bit, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, because I don't want force my, what I think is a great idea onto the rest of my staff who have to work there. So if this is a collaborative environment, everyone has, has more fun. But, and plus I don't like being the, I don't want to have to make all the decisions. No one likes to do that, the decision fatigue. And then you have to figure out what the hell's for dinner. And like, no, I, I don't need to make any more decisions in my life. So if these are competent people, I can just let them do that. Now I understand that delegation is not a skill that that some people are comfortable with, but it's made a huge difference for me because what that gives the employee then is some ownership too.

100%.

And they know that they're in charge of this and they know that I trust them to go and do it. So just do it. And that's how we're all going to go forward.

I love that. So the value statement that I'm hearing in that is like, all ideas are worthy of exploring.

Oh, yeah.

You know, that's what I hear. And I think that does— that attracts a very specific kind of human, at least in terms of who's going to stay and who's going to be a good fit.

Yeah.

Because the other thing is you're touching on a core need for people in terms of engagement. And this again is researched, people could look it up, but that sense of ownership and that sense of empowerment, like I feel actually trusted to do my job. Basically, it's the antithesis of micromanagement.

Yeah.

Right. And so what's interesting is there are people that want to make every decision.

Yep.

Right? And like massive control freaks, which I can absolutely agree that when it comes to certain things, I have a really hard time letting go. Right? But it's— we just have to look at it and be honest about it and say, how are we, you know, how are we letting our employees show up? How much of themselves get to be at play here?

Right?

Right? And I think, I think that's really cool. Plus, I was there one time at the market and one of your employees, and again, I don't— I didn't even know her name, didn't look at her name tag, and I just said, well, what would you—

Cute that you think she has a name tag.

Oh, did she? Okay, so yeah, I wasn't missing anything. Uh, but I was like, okay, well, what would you recommend? And she's like, well, this one's mine.

Mm-hmm.

That's what she said. Like, well, this is the one that she's like, I came up with this one. And I was like, well, serve it to me then.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, heck yeah. And so that's, that's cool. Mm-hmm. And I felt it, right? I felt that like, of course I wanna make you the thing that I suggested we have on our board, which is a really cool way to engage people. Well, that's the fun thing about coffee is it's It's, it's endless, right?

And so all the different combinations and, and techniques and things.

Oh my gosh, right, the syrups and the milks and the—

well, we just had, uh, one of my employees, Kiana, uh, I've told them like, just do social media, okay? Like, I— you don't need to run everything by me. I trust you. I trust you, you know the voice of this place and you know the modern era that we're in, so just go make some cute videos. Like, we just, we need to do something other than sell on our Facebook page, right?

Yeah.

And so they've— they created, um, they did a video, like a TikTok or a Reel style video of holding our coffee drinks like men hold fish and dating profiles.

That's fantastic.

It was great.

I gotta go check that out.

And then they did another one, and the format is you go into any retail establishment and the person who's— oops, sorry— the person who's getting the product, the customer, you know, says, uh, hey, enjoy the rest of your shift. And then the worker goes, yeah, you too. And he goes, wait a minute, me too? And then it's a series of pictures of this customer who happened to be my brother come back behind the thing and he's making a drink and he's doing all this stuff. And it's, it was really cute. And it's just, it makes you smile and it's fun. But the point is I gave them the leeway to go and do that.

Right.

Right. And so I don't need to, I forgot where I was going with this.

But yeah. And now, so let me ask you this. How do you determine if you can give them that much leeway? Like, is there, is there something you're looking for in the interview specifically, or is that because— again, no.

So it— in the interview, I'm looking for, can you hold a conversation? Do I enjoy talking to you?

Yeah.

Um, even the kids—

what a gooey, uh, fabulous way of doing it, which I am here for, because I can teach your kid to pull a shot of espresso.

I've taught my kid to pull it. It's not difficult. It's do this, do this, and press a button. It's, it's not that difficult. Any idiot can can do coffee.

Yeah.

So, but I want them to be able to look the customer in the eye, say hello, do a little joke, have it be a fun interaction, and, and be on your way. One of the things I wanted to touch on, especially when it comes to decision fatigue, is you have to set the tone. You're the driver, right?

Right.

As the owner, um, I think what I tell my employees after they've been there for a bit too is I can't carry that all the time. Yeah, I can't carry the weight of all this. I can't carry— I can't drive the bus today, the, the positivity bus. And so I have found some other people who can, and I'm just upfront with them. This is not a great day for me, um, I'm gonna need some help. Or, we have a big event today, I'm not super stoked about it, I'm tired, I'm grumpy, I don't really want to do it, but I can feed off your energy. So around that, we call it setting the tone. We're going to set the tone for the day. And sometimes I need help doing that. And so it's, it's not a heavy lift for my employees. It's, it's smiling. It's making a joke. They know who I am. They know I'm not going to yell at them, you know?

Right. Right.

And so just having that safe space that I, as the, as the big owner, I'm asking this 16-year-old to help me set the tone for the day. And that's, that's— she has created that as part of her identity now, which is really cool. But I saw it in the interview. Right?

Sure.

I saw that she has this positivity, this bubbly— that she's ready to jump in and do things. So I don't need to call references. If you're shitty, I'll just fire you. Like, that's— yep. References are just your hand-picked people who will say, oh yes, they're the greatest.

Yeah, it's kind of a pointless piece of the whole process.

So I don't even have an application, if I'm being completely honest. I don't, because—

oh my God, you're gonna have so many people that are like, how do I work for that guy?

Because what do I need an application for? So if you want to work here, then come and talk to me if I have an opening and I need somebody, then let's sit down. If I don't like the vibe after sitting down, or if your availability doesn't work, then we just move on to the next. But I don't need to file more paperwork. Where the hell am I going to put it? And for what? So if you get hired—

Where am I going to put it?

If you get hired, all your paperwork is online in the app that we use, and then it's all good. So I don't know. Maybe I'm much more of a pirate than makes people comfortable.

Well, I think— but I think, listen, Yes, that's true. Let's just call it what it is. Yes, you have an approach that would really be difficult, probably. And again, depending on the nature of the business, depending on who's listening. What I am interested in though, is like, you've had good success, like not only hiring but retaining, and they're young. Yeah. They're young staff and they're showing up for you in a really clear way, and literally, My whole point of this is like, okay, well, there's something that you're doing that's attracting this young generation when everybody else is saying that they're lazy and don't want to work.

And so, yeah, we have our fair share of that, don't get me wrong. And I have to scale the 24-year-olds back, the hungry thoroughbreds who are like, well, this girl, she's not, she's not doing what she's supposed to, or the pop wasn't stocked. I'm like, okay, is it the end of the world?

Though?

Yeah, like, did you die?

Like, we all forget that's the basic, like, response to all employee complaints. No, but did you die? I mean, so you're coming at him with, like, straight Gen X vibes, right?

Like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, girl.

Stop your bitching.

Yeah, so no, I, I, you know, employee Complaints come, I say, okay, we'll deal with that. And then I send a text message of, hey, I don't know if things got busy last night or what, but just a reminder, like, hey, we need eggs for the morning. It's, you know, that's a time-consuming thing. If you could just, you know, make— look at the— look at things the night before and see. And then she was able to text back and say, well, Emily said that she would cut ham and she had some other excuse for that. Well, okay, then that— I don't need to dog you about it. Like, The, the thing that I said from the beginning is we're all adults here, okay? Even you 16-year-olds, we're all adults. So the, the schedule is a guideline. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I'm not going to make you— like, what the hell kind of way to run or to manage people of this is your shift and you have to be here for it, and if you're not, then you're written up? And you're like, no, either you're going to be an adult and show up to work when you say that you can Yeah, you know, within parameters, like give me what your schedule is, and then that's when I know what to expect. A request off is just a threat that they're not going to be there.

Yeah.

So why do we need to keep— I don't know, I just don't believe in all that. So I have things going on in my life, I can't be there all the time. So if you can't either, then okay, give us your availability and we'll fill in the rest.

Yeah, that's—

and, and make it work. That's— I don't feel like that's a heavy lift and— or, or a big deal, but it does seem kind of novel to these kids who are like, okay, well What do I do with like absence requests? I don't— put it, put it in the app and then we'll know and everything gets approved and then we'll figure it out.

Yeah, and we'll only have a big problem if like everybody wants the exact same time frame.

And, and there has been that happens, I'm sure. And then you just say, hey, really sorry, I know people have stuff going on, is there any way anybody can give me a little bit of time? And I'm the first one to jump in and, you know, yep, yep, you go first.

So have you ever like, have you ever had a situation where you really were like, I don't know how to handle this with your staff specifically?

Um, kind of. We had a— I had a guy work for us, and he, he was there, he helped us start it, and he helped to run the kitchen, but his home life was not great.

That's tough.

And it bleeds over, you know. And he would talk to other employees about all of his problems, and we'd say, hey, really seems like you should go talk to somebody, really seems like you should get some counseling, really seems like you should do X, Y, and Z because it's just not— as much as we talk about setting the tone and all that, you kind of have to leave that stuff. Work is work and home is home.

Yeah, but it doesn't ever— mentally, emotionally, people don't do that.

No, right?

And we know that. And you're not suggesting that they can, but— right, there is, there is a, like, we need you to be on.

Yes.

Yeah.

And this was a multiple— he had the ability to bring the energy down in the room quite a bit. And that, and My old business partner had the same. She could do that as well. And it's like, I need people who can do the opposite. I need you to be able to bring the whole room up. So he's on the verge of divorce, I think sleeping on somebody's couch. And after 2 no-shows, I fired him.

And how did that— how did that sit for you?

It sucked. I think for the 2 weeks that I contemplated it, it sucked. And then I ran across a Gary Vee clip where he's like, I promise you, if you fire your top performer who is a pain in the ass for all the other boys and girls, they will thank you for it and your business will be better for it. And that was a big— because I'm like, well, he's running the kitchen. How can I— how can I fire? Well, because it's just a sandwich kitchen. It's not that big of a deal.

Yeah.

And so it sent a message to the rest of the staff, though, too, that I'm not going to tolerate that and I'm going to protect you from it too. Like, I had just been through a business breakup. I didn't, you know, I, I wanted to make it clear that, okay, no, we're not, we're not going to do this anymore.

I think, I think that, uh, that general reminder that, you know, you're even— because I, I have such a problem truly just at my core with, um, high performers that are just complete assholes getting to hang out. I just, again, and that's, that's maybe certain cultures that, that's what they want to create. That is not—

it is not a culture that I want to work in.

You know, and I think most people don't, right? Because you shouldn't be able to alienate 80%. I don't care if you produce 80% of the profit, like really big picture, you're— again, and we take it to this extra level of like, what, what kind of humans is that creating for the community that you're operating your business in?

You know, like, would you rather lose one person and would you rather lose your whole team because they don't want to work with the one problem person?

Exactly. And if that person is a a problem person at work, how, how would we not assume they're kind of like that in their day-to-day life?

Yeah.

And then that's also a perception thing of your business.

Oh, that's absolutely true. There are places I don't go because I know who works there.

Thank you for just saying that and owning that. And that again is— I'm not— I don't want to say these things and bring these things up like, uh, well, shame on you and you should do better, but more like, uh, if you aren't thinking about somebody, think about it.

Somebody who's and he goes, ah, shit. I do need to fire that person.

Right, and you know, just, it's scary. And I also, like, I'll come up against like clients or whatever that I'm working with and we're talking about, they'll say, I just, I just, well, like, there'll be a thing, a perpetual thing that this person just either doesn't do, and we'll talk about just having a conversation with them. And they literally are like, well, I don't wanna upset them.. And I, I constantly just say, I do not want any businesses to be held over a barrel by their employees.

Yeah.

I get that we are in a tight labor market. I understand that. And I just, this is why I really want people to spend a little more time thinking about, well, who are we? Mm-hmm. What is the, what is the vibe of our business? How do we treat people? How do we want people to treat each other?

Yep.

I actually, you know, you were talking about this right at the start, like, So if anybody's listening to this and you've got really strong job descriptions, which it sounds like you maybe don't, and that's okay, sir, you can just put it on the list to develop, right?

It's fine. HR is working on that, right?

Yeah, right.

As soon as they make an—

as soon as I make an HR department, the whole HR team is hustling as you're here, right? So, so the companies that are like, no, we, we have really good job Great. That lays out the what you expect people to do, right? And it's, it's actually pretty easy to have conversations when those metrics or those bars aren't being met, right? It's like, you're not doing what you said you would do, like, and that's, and that's it. What, what trips everybody up from a leadership perspective and a human resources perspective is the values conversation, which is the how we do the things. Around here. So I always like positions like two sides of an employment contract, right? And when you are clear about what you— what kind of vibe— when you can get clear about that, they become a set of shared agreements.

Yeah.

That when shit goes sideways, and it does because people are people, you can anchor down. I always call them an anchor. They serve— they serve you as the owner or the leader because you can come back to and say, kind of like Hey, remember when we talked about this? And remember that like every single time we get together, every single time we do this, we say these things. This is what I'm seeing and this is why it's not okay.

Yeah.

Because without, without those guardrails of like the behavior stuff, it's all— it's, it's subjective at best.

Yeah.

And a personal slam at worst. Right. And there's some spectrum there. Well, because people don't— it's not super common for people to take constructive feedback very well.

Right.

It's a hard skill. Like, it's— that's a skill to be developed too, right? Um, so anyway, I just think this— I think it's super important.

I use a lot of humor in, in everything I do, but even in— I don't enjoy confrontation, you know, although— so, right, when I've had to have those conversations though, I mean, if you're sitting down and having it, that's one thing, but if somebody forgot to— I don't know, forgot to lock the door, or, uh, whatever, there's some, some big thing, but it's not super— it, it's not minor. But anyway, what I've done is, uh, Jonas, you forgot— I'll, I'll text everyone, I'll put it on the company thread or whatever. Jonas forgot to do this, that's minus 10 points from House Jonas. And that kid, he was 16, but he, he would come back and be like, hey, um, can I get those like 10 points back? It's all imaginary, it doesn't mean anything, there's a scoreboard.

No, I think that So freaking brilliant. And it's also, Brody, like, you haven't— this is why I wanted to talk to you about this, because you casually mentioned, like, this is a vibe check. And I'm like, oh, I get that. But I'm like, other people are like, what's a vibe check? Like, can someone fill me in on how do I do a vibe check? There's an innateness with you for this, which is awesome. But you're also like, for people that aren't as innate at it, think about how could you position it in a way that also gets to their level? Because house point— house Jonas is super funny, and I, and I love it. And you, you, again, you, that, that like lighthearted way, it doesn't mean that you're not addressing it, right? The biggest problem is just when we just don't— we're like, well, we don't want to piss them off, so we won't say anything. And I think it's your business, or it's your department if you're like a leader in it, right?

The agreement when you go to work is that you will do a set of skills that have been laid out, or it's a set of tasks that have been laid out for you, and in return I will give you money.

Exactly.

And that's what I've taken to— I guess I take comfort in that because, yeah, you don't want to be the mean boss and you don't want to yell. Well, fine, don't yell. But the agreement of walking in this door and clocking in is that I need you to do X, Y, and Z. If that's not in your purview, then that's okay. You can just find some other place to work. But if you think that you can do this, and if you can do it with a smile on your face, and be friendly to the people that you work with and to the customers, then we're golden, let's go.

Yeah, exactly, so again, I wanna remind everybody listening to this, like, if you don't have your values somewhat shaped out, take a couple minutes and shape 'em out. Like, you literally just hit on a few things. Like, smile, there's a friendliness that you expect of your people. Now, again, I'm just gonna, people might be like, well, yeah, I mean, it's a coffee shop, of course they have to be friendly. I don't think a lot of people are hiring people. I don't think a lot of businesses are taking the time to actually identify that friendliness matters. And what friendliness means is because we all need the warm bodies, you know. Of course, I know.

And that's why that, that vibe check is, can I, can I see who you are as a person? Can I see kind of how you work? Because again, those are the hard skills that I can't teach.

That's right.

You can over time, but I don't—

I don't have— yeah, you're not taking that on.

I'd rather take a week and teach you you how to make lattes and sandwiches and have you go and do that and not have to worry about what you're going to say to customers.

Totally.

That's so— that's what I mean with the vibe check. Do you fit the culture?

Do you—

could we share a plate of nachos and have a, have a good time? And do I think that you can do these skills? If all of those are yes, then, then let's go. And if, if I turn out to be wrong or you turn out to be a liar, then hire fast, fire fast.

Right, right.

I'm not writing any books on it. I've only had to fire 2 people Yeah.

Yeah. That's a, that's a pretty solid track record because you've been open for how many years?

3 years. Yeah.

I, that's, I was going to say. Almost 4. Yeah. That's, that's crazy.

Yeah.

It's crazy. And I, again, I just think like we spend a lot of time thinking about the nuts and bolts of the job. Mm-hmm. And the how people do it really matters because otherwise what happens, and I don't know if you've experienced this working for other people maybe in your previous life, but it's like, You, you end up, if you're the boss, you end up kind of like low-key being annoyed all the time because people are behaving in a way that just kind of bothers you, but you don't really— you're like, well, I can't really say anything, I'm just bothered. And I'm like, if you own the place, you're bothered, you say something. But it's also not fair to hold them to a standard that you've never articulated out loud.

You have to articulate it.

Yeah, and that's where I'm not fair. It's about like literally having very clear expectations.

And that's where I give myself a lot of— give them a lot of grace too. If they're doing— like, power will fill a vacuum. So if, if I'm not telling them exactly what to do and how to do it, then I can't be mad at them for them doing it, trying to just get it done and doing it their own way.

Where did that phrase come from?

What?

Power will fill a vacuum.

Oh, I don't know.

I've never heard that before. Really? I've never heard that before, but it's really artic— it's articulate. Yeah, I like it.

And so, but it goes both ways. If I have like, I'm going to be in Disney World for a week in 2 weeks. And so I, if, or if there have been times where I've kind of like just not been able to show up in the right way. And luckily I have people there who can see that, recognize that, and they will step in in a positive leadership way.

Right.

They can absolutely go the opposite way.

Yeah.

So I know that I can step away from the place and have it be okay because I have trusted people who are— they're not doing my job, but they're doing the job of a manager.

Yep.

And, and communicating and managing things and, and keeping the place going. Uh, without them, either I would have to do it all the time, or someone else is going to step in and be like, "Well, it doesn't really matter." You know, your standards just go out the window if you're not communicating them, right?

For sure. And I think, you know, you use the word delegation earlier. It is, it is a bit of that, right?

It is. You have to—

literally, it's It's literally being able to say, and I think the one thing that gets missed in the idea of delegation is we consider delegation when we just say, here's a low-level shit task, please do it. That's not exactly delegation. That's really more like dumping, right? You're just like, and that happens too. But delegation is truly when you say, hey, this is the goal, right? This is what has to be accomplished. I could tell you exactly how to do it. That's also not delegation. If you have an exact process, then again, you're just— you're assigning a task, which is fine, that's great. But when you say to them, this is the end goal and I don't really care how you get there, it's yours to decide, and that's when that ownership, like that actual sense of ownership, yeah, becomes real, right? And for motivated people, which— who doesn't want to hire motivated, right, people? I guess I'd be hard-pressed to find— like, who's the people we want that are like Who wants unmotivated workers? I don't know. Um, that's what they want. That's what they want. They want that challenge. They want to know again that they're like unique, that their unique contributions are being seen, being appreciated, being noticed. The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns podcast studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by The Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough, and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge, and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you.

Well, and unfortunately you have to pay them for that too.

And heck yeah, you do.

And you have to pay them a deal. And in this day and age, we talk a lot about minimum wage and, and the, you know, what you can survive on and all that. If I were to pay my staff minimum wage, all of my problems would be gone.

Like all of my financial problems, right?

Until they're like, well, screw this. This was a great job because I was getting paid this much money, plus about $2.50 to $3 an hour in tips, and I get to do what I want and I'm in charge of stuff. You turn that to now I'm only making $7.25. You're going to have a rotating door of people, and training people is so freaking expensive.

It's extremely expensive. So a general thought about this is that people need to be paid enough where money isn't a constant thought. Yeah, that's basically it. Which I know feels like, well, how the hell do you figure that out? You've got to know your market. You've got to, you know, you've got to actually kind of know what your competitors are doing. You know, having some sense of the market is really important. But outside of that, culture is what can absolutely make up the gap of what you can't pay people in extra salary. Because you actually— for the people that just feel like, the businesses that feel like, why, just, I can't pay what people need to be happy here, I'm telling you that like money isn't money isn't all of it. It's really not. It's not what drives engagement. It's not the top— one of the top 3 things people look for, right? But they do need to be paid well enough that they're not constantly stressing about it. That's, that's it. It's got to basically be like, how do we get finances, money off the table?

Yeah.

And that's— that I get that that's a hard thing in this market too, to kind of like figure out. Yeah.

Um, I woke up the other morning kind of in a cold sweat being like, oh shit, do I need to lower my wages, which I never, never said I wanted to do. So I would save about $7,000 a year if I took a dollar off everyone's pay, uh, be $14,000 if I did $2 off. It moves the needle, not a ton, but what, what's your risk? Or the other way to say it, to flip that, is what you just said, is, is the culture that we're building and that we have built enough to especially if you come into it with an honest, like, I'm not doing this so I can have— buy myself a yacht. It's so that the business can survive.

Right.

So given the choice between the two of those and, you know, in this climate, who knows what's going to happen, right? So I don't know. It's tough to— I have a hard time gamifying people's lives. I take payroll very, very seriously. I will always put in to cover it if we need to. Like, checks are not late. That is, that is the most integral thing you can do, especially if I'm not there working alongside the shoulder to shoulder, that I'm trusting them to take care of the place. I need to pay them, right? That is it. That is, it's a full stop.

Yep, yep. Non-negotiable. And thank you for being that kind of business owner because I just think, yeah, I've just heard other stuff and it's—

I, I don't know how people live that. I don't know how you go to sleep at night knowing that you're the, the people that are depending on your paycheck are now out.

You know, I have this yucky feeling, Brody, that there's all shades.

Oh, I'm sure.

Super POS people. I've heard stuff about, you know, I just, I hate, I hate that that's likely true.

But yeah, in coffee shops I've heard a lot of, uh, people will post on Reddit or Facebook like, is it, is it true that managers get, get tips?

No, no, it's not.

So there's managers, there's owners taking, taking these people's tips. And it's like, what? What? Again, how do you, how do you sleep at night?

I, I always hope for a karmic, you know, reverberation of sorts. Like, it's got to come back around. But I think we know, like, in truth, it doesn't always. No. Sometimes super shitty people are successful. And that's, that is a hard reality for me, BTW. Like, I really do have a hard time just Being like, okay, so all these important things that we're talking about, like humanity, how, how we treat people, giving them encouragement, giving them guardrails, being clear, being kind, being all these things— people can totally throw that out the door and still have yachts. Yeah. Damn, that's frustrating, right? But I think, again, we're talking about the impact that local employers have on a community, right? Those— the people that run their businesses like that are not furthering their community.

Yeah.

As a way, like, because if that's what the employees are treated like, that means they're taking that to the streets.

Yeah, you're right.

So it's just a huge impact.

It's a little bit Sesame Street, right? Like, these are the people in your neighborhood. And so, especially as a business owner, though, I think it's important. And everyone has their own vision for how they want to run their business. But I never wanted it to be Brody's Coffee Shop. I don't need to be the face of the business. I'd rather there be multiple faces. And so, right, we have people— everyone knows Tiffany, who's been there since day one, has opened every single day, and she doesn't always do things exactly the right way, but people come in to see her. And so it's not a hill I'm gonna die on.

100%. Yep.

Yeah. And then you got Kayon and Emily who are out there doing, doing TikToks.

Shout out to the markets team.

I mean, they're—

I love it.

Everyone has their little niche. And but I like to think that they bring that into the community. That's not something that we've talked about as a team, but it's an interesting thought.

It is. I think it's an important thought because there's kind of two parts of this. You actually just touched on it when I was listening to you talk about the TikToks and like the reels and the stuff that their team is doing. It is so easy to dismiss that as unimportant, silly. Like, that's just all what the young bucks want to do. Like, this is the crap that I've heard. And it— the reason it's important, um, is because it actually— it personifies the experience of your coffee shop in kind of a, you know, kind of a, um, a more distributed way, right? Um, and people that really delight in that, they will actually want to come and meet those— that's that staff.

Like you said, people want to buy things from people they know and, and that they find enjoyable.

Like, it's a like thing too. They have to be like, I Oh my gosh, like, I just really want to hang out with that person.

Yeah.

And that's why who you are as a human matters in the ownership of this business too, because you present yourself in a way— and again, you're not probably everybody's cup of tea. None of us are. None of us are, right? But you literally do find the people then by truly being who you are, um, that they're like, I just want to hang out with that guy, right? And they're going to want to come to your coffee shop. So that's one thing. The second thing though is you mentioned Tiffany. Um, people know Tiffany. So when Tiffany goes to Kessler's or Tiffany goes to Target, the community— your community interacts with her. And because she's the kind of person that vibe checks with you, that's probably what she's carrying out into the community.

You're right, cuz you don't want to do the whole like, uh, middle school field trip, you are representing Holgate Middle School today, so we all need to be on our best behavior. Plus, right, for 19— 16 to 19-year-olds, it's really tough.

It—

I think that's too much for me to say you work here part-time, but by the way, you are an agent of the market when you go out into your regular life. Yeah, that's ridiculous.

Be careful when you're going out at night and hanging out with your friends and partying because you represent the market.

However, to what you said, or to your point, I think it, it, it takes the sort of the pressure off some of that.

Yeah.

Because I, I genuinely believe that you all are good people and I've banked on that enough to where I will pay you to come here. And so, yeah, you're right. It's some— the spillover, I think, is, uh, is an unintended positive consequence.

I know. And it's something that can be shifted.

Yeah.

And that's something that I just don't think enough, like, economic development people are talking about, like, We want— we all want people to move back to our communities.

Yeah.

Well, then let's help our businesses create stronger environments, positive, healthy working environments. And so, like, for me, I don't— I don't— again, with what you offer for benefits, that's really dicey and hard right now too. Um, but like what you can do for flex work, if remote work's a possibility, right? Um, if you offer popcorn in the break room at 4 PM on Thursdays. Like, I don't necessarily care about that. It's about you saying what your environment is and then actually walking that out every single day, hiring to it, firing to it, coaching to it, and holding to it. Yeah, that's it. And I just don't think enough— like, especially small kind of locally owned businesses, it's kind of just like, well, we get who we get and we don't throw a fit, right? And like, oh, but you're shaping people, right? You're shaping people, right?

You feel like you're putting out fires though too, especially as the the small kids on the block. All you're doing is putting out fires, which is why I haven't done a value statement because I haven't had the damn time. Yeah, you know, like that. All those, you know, ethereal things are on the back burner until I know that I can make payroll and that we have enough materials for them to do their jobs. Right.

And so, right. So sometimes it's good to take a moment, think about these kinds of things, right? And say, okay, if I could take however much time and get out of the— in, in the day-to-day of the business and start to— and to work on it, you know, like focus on some of those things because they are foundational.

Yeah.

And I know there's— the list of that stuff is like so freaking long because you're just like, yeah, I'll get to that eventually.

Yeah.

But at a minimum, I think even your approach, it's more organic and it's maybe not as defined, but Brody, you absolutely have values at the market.

You do.

You just haven't clearly articulated what they are.

Yes.

I think the process of actually doing that won't be that No, I don't think it will either.

And I think because I have the buy-in of these staff, it won't be a hard pivot to say like, okay, this is, this is who we are. No one's gonna be like, no, we're not.

Yeah, well, in fact, just sit down, serve them some beers one night, sit down and say, let's come up with 3, 3 statements that define who we are. And they'll, they'll help you. Yeah, right. Because what's cool about this for you is that you're not trying to change the culture, you're just trying to more crystallize it.

Yeah.

Right. Well, and for people that want to change it, it's a little more arduous. Yes.

And I think when you're changing things within your business as much as you can to work with people's muscle memory.

Yeah.

Like when last year, this time last year, we sat down and I'm like, okay, how do we make— how do you make a sandwich? Well, how do you make a sandwich? And realize it's totally different. Well, can we find a middle ground where you don't have to reset your own muscle memory to do it? So can you set a standard to the way that it's being done now or slightly different, and then you just have that standard. One thing I wanted to say before I forgot it, with, with your value statement, your, your mission statement, and you have those on paper, it also gives both of you something else to point back to. And so it's not me, right? Yeah, I'm not riding your ass. You said you would do these things and you're not, so I'm just following up.

That's exactly it. And it puts those parameters around the behavioral stuff that's— that always feels more personal. Yeah. And, and it's literally— we live in the Midwest, you and me, right? Here we are. You're in South Dakota, I'm in North Dakota. Our desire to like engage in difficult conversations, it's close to zero.

Oh shoot.

Oh shoot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Oh, we got to have a conversation.

You know, she's trying real hard, so that's, that's— it, it'll be— that's a little different, but it'll be okay.

I love it. I, I, I, I seriously though, I, I want I want to just say, like, if you, if you, if you take a little bit of time, you can have these conversations in a way that in no way creates resentment or frustration. It's, it's like a loving and kind and generous way to do it. You can.

Well, and you know, they don't— at, at 18, 19, 22, they don't understand what it's like to run a business, so they don't know what your problems are either.

Of course not.

I, in this most recent staff meeting, I sat down and said, okay, here's how a labor percentage works. Yeah.

Okay.

And here's where we are now and here's where we need to go. And I need you all to know this. So again, I'm not buying a yacht with this. This is so that we can keep going. So when, like, the schedule is going to stay the way it is, but here's why, right?

Yeah.

Pulling back a little with a couple of my managers, I said, okay, here's our profit and loss statement from this year and from last year. I know it all looks like like Latin, but I'm going to teach you how to read some of this so you can see and help me get to where we need to go, right? Right. I'm not just hounding you guys on write down what you threw away. Like, I actually need to know what our waste was this month so that I can see where the problem is.

But what a cool way to, to engage people, especially kids, younger people. I shouldn't call them kids, especially at this, at that time in their lives too. Like I just think you're doing a great job. That's what I really think. Thank you. Even though I know sometimes you feel like, oh, I'm never going to figure this out, and there's so much uncertainty, especially like we were just talking earlier, like food prices, things that you can't control, like the actual cost of your inputs. You're going to see changes in that this year, and you know that.

Yeah.

But the things that you can control and the things that I want all the business owners that are listening to us talk about this, what I hope more than anything that they take away from it is just that Choose one, one value that is really, really important to you and decide to crystallize it and sit down with your staff and talk about it. Talk about what, what hitting that looks like, what not hitting that looks like, and just start there. Yeah, because it really does. Like, the— we're growing. You guys are shaping the humans that do life in our communities. Therefore, you're shaping our communities, and I just don't think enough people are. A, maybe thinking about it. So here, that's the first step. Let's just acknowledge that. And then B, doing— taking one small step towards a healthier culture or a culture that feels more aligned with who you want to be.

If I could just have a CFO and I could just manage these people, I'd be so much happier. Oh my goodness.

I get that.

It's hard. I don't mind managing people at all. Well, they're just people. And maybe that's just my education or my upbringing. Like, I have a master's in social work, so the mess people stuff.

Yeah, you love it. That's very— that does, that does set you apart.

Yeah, it doesn't bother me at all. And so maybe that's where some of the skills, or what I don't think are skills that you're telling me are, you know, totally skills, sir. So it's— but yeah, you get bogged down in the day-to-day of what, what needs to be done. But they're, they're just people and they just want to do a good job. And the more vulnerable you are with them, of either I can't set the tone today, I need your help to do that, That's so brave, BTW.

I didn't say that when you said it and I felt it, right? It's brave. And it is, that is vulnerability. And that's really what people crave from their leaders. That's actually what people crave. And I just don't think, again, there's so many things that are countercultural a bit to where we live. And it's very much like, well, men, you know, like men don't have feelings. Men have all the feelings. And the more repressed they are, the harder and scarier it actually is. For us to work through stuff. So I think to just be able to own that with people, that's really powerful.

It can be alarming when you see your boss get emotional because they're the ones running the thing, right? They're the owner of it. They— I'm sure they all have me on some kind of pedestal of different heights.

Yeah.

And well, maybe for some I'm not on a pedestal at all, but I try to be vulnerable to say I'm just figuring this out. Out, okay, with— along with you guys. And so I appreciate your help in helping me do that, um, but I don't have all the answers right now, and, and I don't know. Or I— there's been times where I've had to circle back and be like, I was not at my best yesterday.

Yeah, that's super important.

Really apologize for that, and that's not how I want to show up, and it was yesterday, and here's why that is, and you know, I'm sorry.

Yeah.

And I think, again, it's just you're treating Yeah, treat everybody like adults. We don't need to—

and just like people. Yeah, I mean, that's what you're talking about, right? And I think that's the other— this is— that's the kind of the, the bow on this whole conversation is that employers have such a unique opportunity to really hold— I'm gonna say hold space— hold space for it. Like, we're defying gravity here. That whole bit was just ridiculous. Okay, but like, really, you, you create a container, right, where people come to you and you're shaping their view of themselves, and this is, this is the kind of deep psychological stuff, but I don't care, like, this is what we're talking about. You're— and you reinforce the best of themselves, and you're giving them, um, a clear way to practice being human, right? And you've got guardrails around that. If more of us just allowed for that— I mean, that's what community is. Yeah, giving people the space to be themselves and to be human. And to— so I just, I mean, I love— I, if I could like wave a wand and say— whoop— if I could wave a wand and say, I wish every small business owner had a social work background, I think about how much better off we'd be just mentally and holistically.

Yeah.

Right? Because it's, it's not— it is, of course, it's about paying the bills. You're running a business, right? You have, you have to get to that point. I get all of that. And You're shaping humans in the process.

Like I said, I take the human part of it very seriously. I know you do. And I think probably because it's where I feel most comfortable. I don't feel comfortable in the reading of profit and loss statement, but I, I know I can take care of these people. And so that's what I, I don't— not at the sake of other things, but yeah, I do feel pretty comfortable in this. This is the vision. This is what we're trying to do. And if you want to come along, then, then great.

Well, and I really want to urge everybody running, especially kind of customer-facing businesses, that when you take that approach, this like, I am, I am here to take care of them, lead them well, let them be their messy selves, your employees will show up that way for your customers. And that, again, you want to talk about like the ripple effect out of just good humans taking care of other humans. Yeah. It's a really big deal. Deal.

Well, and we all, we all want to be better, right? Like, we're not dead yet, and so most people want to be better. And when you can identify skills in people that need a little bit of polish, most of them know that already. Like, I've had people who are in managerial roles and they need to send, or they need to put out a bunch of information, but she will say, I know I sound like a bitch.

I love, I love that. That's such good awareness.

And so she will send me what she wants to send out beforehand, and sometimes I'll tweak it and sometimes not, but she knows that she wants to work on that.

Yeah.

And so this is a safe place to be able to do that.

That's a huge deal too.

Yeah.

Because if you're vulnerable enough to say, hey, like, this is something I'm kind of struggling with, then they know that they can come to you. That safety, that psychological safety, oh my goodness, I don't even know. I mean, really, like, that should be what we try to create in the environments that we're responsible for, I think, right? Like at home, of course. I want to create psychological safety where, like, my kids can say anything to me and they know that I've got them.

Yep.

Right? But that's the same role that we get to play for employees.

Yeah.

And whether— and, you know, I've heard all sorts of answers to some of this stuff where people will be like, well, but they're only part-time and they don't really care that much. And I'm just like, why wouldn't you want to be a part of their experience that they always look back on with just a ton of fondness?

Everyone remembers their first jobs.

Yeah. And especially the ones where they were treated really well. Well, you were not treated right. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You, and you have such a— it's such a— it's such an honor, I think, and a cool— it's not a burden, but it's a— it is a responsibility. Yeah, but it's an honor, you know? You're shaping humans. Yeah, how freaking cool.

It's, it's fun. I do feel lucky to be able to do that, and it is my favorite part of the job. The, the customers are great, and I love my customers, but I really like interacting with my staff, and I like working on projects with them, and I like watching them, watching them grow. And when you can give, you know, a couple people another step up opportunity. I took one of my staff to a coffee expo. It was my first coffee expo, but it was my first time bringing a staff as well. You know, like I just paid for her out of my dime to go stay at a hotel, and she brought her boyfriend, and I said, I'll just pick you up on the way and we'll go. And she said so many times, like, thank you so much for bringing me. Like, It was really cool. I didn't think it would be that big of a deal for her, and I just wanted another set of eyes, but she looked at it all very differently. And so that's— it's to, to do those kind of— give them the opportunities where you can to, to step up or level up or take on this project. And now people are going to look to you to— for details that, as long as they can handle it and they know that you got their back if they fall, right, then Yeah, it takes work off your plate, that's for sure.

I, I want to thank you for driving up.

Absolutely.

Hanging out with me, sharing these because these are innate to you so they don't feel like gifts. These are very special Brody Mueller gifts. And you're exactly— that's exactly the kind of person that I want to see running businesses like you've got. And I know it's been hard and I know there's a lot of challenges, Um, but this is— this— you are an exceptional people leader, and I knew it from the moment I met you. Um, and it's just been so fun to watch. Again, to have— to have 10 employees and only have lost like 2 that you had to like let go of.

Yeah, everyone else— there's been other—

of course you've had people that have moved on for other reasons or whatever.

Damn college kids decide they don't want to work at a coffee shop anymore and want to go do their degree.

Yeah, whatever. Lame. Yeah, stupid lame. Um, it's impressive. So thank you so much for— thank you for joining me today.

Appreciate everything you do.

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