S6:E2 - Downtown Redevelopment with Luke Henry

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Our guest on today's episode is Luke Henry.

Luke and I were first connected because he sent an email saying, "Hey, I just wanted to let you know I enjoy listening to your podcast. I share a lot of the same passions for small town development and small business." He also, by the way, has hosted a show called Main Street Reimagined Podcast. We'll put the link to that in the show notes. But he was just like, "Hey, I appreciate what you do." I have some experience, and literally again, I have to say, you know, you get these emails and you're like, oh, I don't know, like I don't know this person, right? They're out of the blue, but I so appreciate it when people do this. Well, this was one where, like, honestly, I shouldn't ever even really be talking about any sort of revitalization because what Luke and his company have done, Henry Development Company, or Development Group, sorry, in Marion, Ohio, It is astounding. And he joins me today to talk through some of that. And what's so fun about it is you'll hear in my voice, I mean, I get pretty excited about things, but this is one of those situations where the scale of what he and his crew bit off with their first project, it's going to blow your mind. And I just, again, I think Marion is a little bit bigger than my community. You know, it's— but it's still absolutely considered a small community. And I think the, the whole goal is that it still takes tremendous audacity to do what Luke and his team did. So, um, this is one of those— if you're into historic buildings, if you have some historic buildings in your community and you, you drive by it, you walk by it, you bike by it, and you dream about what it could be, this episode is 100% for you. Um, and I just think, again, I want people to know about Luke and what he's doing, and it proved to be such a delightful conversation. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed having it. Here is Luke Henry. Well, hey Luke, welcome to the Growing Small Town Show.

So happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, well, thank you. It's, it's always super fun to meet a fellow podcaster that's doing anything even adjacent or, you know, in the same kind of space. So let's start there. Let's talk a bit about the Main Street Reimagined podcast. How'd you get into it? You know, obviously we know where we can probably find it. I'm guessing iTunes, Spotify, all the places. Absolutely. Yeah. But if there's anything anywhere specific you want listeners to go, but I'm really curious what made you decide on a podcast? Because I think I get this question asked of me a lot, and I'm sure you do too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's one of those things I think that seemed like such a great idea at the time, you know? Yeah, I can relate. Yeah, you know, as a fellow entrepreneur, you know, I just, everything is shiny and exciting and I want to do it. I want to give it a shot. But a podcast really was actually something that I kind of thought about and dreamed about for a couple, 3 years before I took the leap into doing it. And really specifically, I landed on Main Street Reimagined because This has become— I'm sure we'll talk about it, but this has become really my kind of passionate life's work to revitalize and reimagine downtown buildings, help dreamers, doers, and entrepreneurs create things and create businesses that ultimately help to create gathering places and spaces and the, the stuff of community. And so, right, as I began that journey and really got into it, and we were doing a lot of projects, meeting a lot of people, I wanted to not only highlight some of the really courageous and awesome people that were creating businesses and that we were partnering with and putting into our downtown buildings that we were working on, but I also wanted to meet others from around Ohio and even around the U.S. that are doing cool stuff in their communities. And then it organically just grew to also include discussions about economic development and city government and all different facets that I've learned are part and parcel to trying to revitalize a community. I originally started thinking that it was just about construction, it was just about fixing up downtown buildings, but really then learned that we've got to layer on, you know, business development and economic development and entrepreneurship and mentorship and leadership and PR and marketing and politicking and lots of other pieces that go along with this.

Yeah, it's a very mixed bag of things, isn't it?

Indeed. Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So that's, I love that. So why don't we kind of back up a little bit maybe. And so tell us and our listeners a bit about your community. So because you just, you mentioned you're in Ohio, Marion, Ohio is where you're, you're at, right? Tell us a little bit about it, like where is it located even to in the state, just to help people kind of picture it if they've never been.

Yeah, so Marion, Ohio is located in central Ohio. We are about 40 miles north of Columbus, which is the capital city, also smack dab in the middle of Ohio. And, uh, we are a community of about 35,000 people in the city, 65,000 in Marion County here that we draw from. And like a lot of other communities that I've seen and experienced across the United States, we are what some affectionately or not so affectionately call a Rust Belt city. And so we saw a lot of affluence in the, the 1920s, '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s, and then saw a significant period of decline, oh, in the '80s and '90s with the advent of the interstate system that took people from driving through our downtown. Uh, it also included shopping malls, uh, that took a lot of the businesses from the downtown. It included, um, some really great, uh, manufacturers and advertising agencies, and then adjacent businesses to those that left our community. And there was a couple of decades that were pretty rough for our community, just like a lot of others. And there was some people that, you know, kind of gave up, and certainly some, some that gave up on the downtown. And some of the buildings had been sort of left for dead, and some of them didn't make it and had been torn down over those years. And, and really When we came on the scene in 2018, there were some folks that were trying to get a little bit of progress going and maybe they'd fix up a storefront and they'd open a restaurant or a retail business, but it just wasn't enough to really get the ball rolling. And so, what we saw was an opportunity to do a little bit more. And that's actually where Main Street Reimagined came from. It was actually the name of our very first project. And so that project included buying 8 buildings on one block of our South Main Street. That block was 80% vacant at the time.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, okay. Timeout, just one quick second.

Yep, yes.

You've said our and we a few times. Who are we talking about?

You?

Luke Henry, and who else?

Yeah, so, um, I started out that initial project. I had a business partner, uh, his name was Alex, or is Alex, and, uh, we started that original project together. We did a portion of those projects together, and then, um, again, I can kind of tell this whole story, but ultimately we started several businesses through that process. And ultimately, a couple years ago, uh, he took a portion of those businesses and continued operating them a couple of wedding venues, a restaurant, and a catering business that we created. And then I continued and had started building a team, uh, that is now Henry Development Group, is actually our, our business name. And, uh, so we have a team that we've built with property management, construction management, and cleaning and all those different sorts of things. Yeah. Okay, so that's the we.

Okay, I love it. That's, that's, that's super exciting. So what was your, what was your background? Prior to the first building you bought? What, what were you doing? What was your— what would you— what had your professional experience been in? Yeah, well, I guess where, you know, if I'm going to be more direct, the question is like, what made you think— like, what made you think I should buy a building, and let alone 8, right, on a city block, right? Because like, what I think I want to stop and just highlight, and I'm so glad to be talking to you, like, first of all, you do have a very great podcasting voice. So, well, thank you. If nobody's ever said that to you, it's very— it sounds great on my ears. I like it a lot. Um, but thinking about the fact that, like, a lot of other people watched that decline happen. A lot of other people said, you know, man, it'd be cool if somebody did something with those old, you know, some of these old buildings. What on earth, what was in your background that made you go? Or even, and this is the thing, like, if you end up telling me that you were like a high school science teacher or something, I mean, it doesn't matter what you did. I really want to know. But the truth is, like, there was something in you that made you say, I want to do this. And I really want what that was, whether it felt like an alignment with a background or just a crazy passion.

Yeah, well, that's a very good question, and I want you to know that I was thoroughly unqualified, uh, for this based on my background. I also told you earlier that I'm an entrepreneur, and so I, uh, have this just kind of unquenchable curiosity, and I have this way of just believing that things can be better than what they are, and somehow I'm going to get in the middle of that and try to instigate making it happen. And so my background is, uh, I said that I'm still deciding what I want to be when I grow up because I, uh, started— I'll give you the short version— is basically I started mowing lawns when I was in junior high. That was one of my first businesses that I had a few, and but I, as a lot of kids do, but the difference is that I never stopped. And so I went through, I did that through high school. I put myself through college, which was, I went to college and I got a Doctor of Pharmacy degree. So I was a pharmacist for a couple of years, also owned a landscaping business and continued doing that. I love this.

This is, that is an eclectic, background, like, yes, and neither of those things— I mean, let's just be clear, neither of those things scream, you know, downtown revitalization. Exactly, downtown revitalization or Main Street building owner really at all.

Yes, here's what I had. I had, uh, the ability to sell ideas and sell people. Uh, I have stood up several businesses in my lifetime, and so I had that ability. I had a lot of determination and grit and just a vision for what I believed our downtown could be. And so again, to kind of get back to answering your question more directly, when we looked around in 2018, I met my partner that I started Main Street Reimagined with. We sat out on the sidewalk of this block of South Main Street, and at the time, one of the only businesses on that block was a little restaurant. Uh, there's a wonderful, uh, lady from Argentina originally. Her name's Marcela, and she had been running this restaurant for almost 10 years. She was like the only thing going on this block pretty much, and she was just wonderful. Her personality is like twice as big as the building, so that's how she made this thing work. And we sat out on her front sidewalk at one of the couple of tables, and we looked around and we just said, man, This feels like it has so much potential. But if we don't do this, who's going to do it? 'Cause I'm not sure that there's anybody coming from outside of our community to save us. No big developers coming to buy up these buildings. Highly unlikely.

Yep, highly unlikely.

And do this. And I don't think that, you know, anyone else, I mean, this is a pretty big undertaking. Now, we thought it was a big undertaking. It was actually way bigger of an undertaking than what I thought. We were so naive.

Can't wait to get— I can't wait to get into that because 8 buildings is nuts. I mean, I bought one. I bought one, and it is crazy enough, more than enough for me, you know?

Like, yes.

So I just— well, and I— Luke, I think that is so— there's something incredibly special about what the— like, the picture that you just painted for us, because I can imagine, obviously, I just met you, and we're on Zoom, right? I don't know Alex, don't know his face, but the idea that I can just imagine the two of you sitting there, and instead of saying, this is so sad, this is depressing. Instead, you said, there's so much potential here. And you almost kind of what if, like, what if we did something? What if? And again, I think it's amazing too, shout out to Marcela, because I've I'm thinking like, how does this standalone, like, solo business restaurant— how does she— how do you do that? How do you make that work with nothing? Almost not only no life around you, but because I don't know about you, I believe in energy, like the energy of spaces. You can, you know, that's why some spaces and places feel good when we walk into them and some of them don't. Yes, it had to be filled with some kind of dead and stagnant energy. The idea that, like you said, her personality— I love that. Was— did you say 10 times or just twice? Twice.

At least twice. Yeah, maybe 10.

That alone, too, is really special, because had she not even continued to do that, there would have been no reason for you to even be sitting there. So that's something to note, too, right?

Absolutely.

Oh, that's incredible. Okay, so you guys decide you know, what if we do this? Right. And I think I want to also just say that you're absolutely the kind of person I'm so happy to know because every community needs somebody that says like— and I don't even always love the frame of like, if we don't, who will? I realize that's what you just said, and sometimes that's just true. But instead of wearing that, like, this mantle of responsibility, You're saying like, we have a vision for this. Who else could shepherd it but us? Right? Like, because we can't give our great ideas to other people and then say, here, go do this. That's really not how the best things come about, at least not in all the time I've done this show and all the people I've talked to. If you have the idea, it kind of is yours to steward forward.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, ideas are, you know, are kind of a dime a dozen. I mean, lots of people have ideas. But to actually go out and write a check and start doing the thing, you know, those are the folks that I love aligning with. And, and I know you do too, that are really getting out there and being courageous and doing it scared. I mean, you know, that's the thing. Like, as I said, we were thoroughly unqualified to do this. I mean, he had flipped a handful of houses. I had flipped a handful of houses, had a few rental properties that I had bought., and done some work, never had owned a commercial building, much less a package of commercial buildings, uh, that were in horrific shape. I mean, some of these, uh, our first flagship project, the building had been vacant for 40 years. There had been a fire there in the 1970s and nobody had occupied it since then. It had just been kind of used as storage.

And so unbelievable, honestly. Yeah, like, because I can't even imagine what 40 years of, like, not decay, but of vacancy does to, you know, the declining condition of the buildings.

Yeah.

Oh, are these like old factory kinds of buildings, like brick? What were they made out of?

Yeah, so these are your kind of standard, uh, Main Street type buildings. So yeah, they're all pretty much masonry construction., with, you know, framing. Uh, and so, uh, they're most of them two-story on that block anyway. Most of these are your kind of typical, you know, two-story Main Street buildings that have a storefront on the first floor, and then at one point they were, yeah, some sort of residence on the upper floors.

Okay, so what I'm dying to know, and I cannot wait, when we, uh, when we ask you for photos to us, like, to accompany this and we promote this, do you have some really striking before and afters? I'm assuming you do.

Yeah, yeah. I wish I was better at, you know, having documented the process, especially some of those, uh, early buildings. But honestly, like, once we started, the, the floodwater hit me so hard that it just kind of— figuratively speaking— got, uh, just sort of, you know, thrown for a loop, and we were just in it. And my, my last thought was, you know, doing a great job documenting with pictures. But I mean, as I'm looking over my computer onto my walls, we some before and afters, and I mean, they, they certainly are striking. I mean, some of these buildings, as I said, have been vacant for decades, and if the entire building hadn't been vacant for decades, then the upper floors, most of them had been, uh, for 40, 50, 70, 80 years.

That is insane.

And, um, you know, to be able to bring life back to those—

yeah, roofs were probably in terrible shape on most of these things, I would guess.

Yes.

I mean, that's such a nerdy and, like, seemingly unimportant question, but it's just like, people can't— I, again, anybody that hasn't taken something on like this, it's just like when you start revamping, like, every single— like, the only thing that's still standing that you can use are maybe the mason, like, the original walls, and that's it. It, it's overwhelming pretty quick.

Yeah, yeah. And very expensive. Uh, but yes, I mean, yeah, we learned a lot very quickly about completely unsexy things like roofs and, you know, old cast iron plumbing and, uh, knob-and-tube wiring and, and all of these things. And bringing them up to, you know, modern-day commercial code is a significant lift. And to first of all understand commercial code, and then the whole process of using architects and engineers and having to work through the building department and getting all of the work inspected in order to get occupancy certificates and all of that is really, really— it's a steep learning curve to ascend. And so many folks have done it. And, you know, if I can do it, anyone can. But it is, it is a lot to learn.

So, okay, I kind of— I cannot stop thinking about the fact that you, you bought 8 buildings at one time. So did you, did you have a really clear vision for what was going to happen in each of those buildings? Did you have— did you guys start businesses in them? Did— had you already talked to partners that were going to occupy them? Were you fitting these buildings up for— like, did you know who was going to be in them and what they were going to be? Tell me, talk to me about that a little bit, because I just can't even fathom 8. I'm serious, like, it's blowing my mind.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it was, um, it was what a lot of folks would call fire, ready, aim. And so we bought the buildings. We, we, we really did have a vision for what at least a few of them we thought were going to be their highest and best uses. And then we knew that we wanted this— our vision was that this block would be the center of downtown dining, shopping, and entertainment. And really a place where people could gather and have community. We have a nice little— it wasn't at the time very improved, but it was a nice space, a little public park on this block that gave a nice green space right on the corner of it. Um, and then our flagship project that we envisioned was a wedding venue that was in the building that had been vacant for 40 years. And so we started you know, with some of those pieces and started to envision what would it look like to create an ecosystem where one thing feeds another thing feeds another thing. So we started to think, what are some of those timeless things that you've got to have in a downtown? What's going to build community? What's going to build consistent foot traffic and help to feed one thing to another? So some of our, you know, our initial visions were Okay, a coffee shop would be great. That's a great community gathering place and a place that drives foot traffic. What about an ice cream shop? Everybody likes ice cream, from infants to grandparents. And so we thought that would be a great thing to have early on. Uh, we love hair salons. Hair salons, um, you know, not that I have a lot of need for them, as you can tell, but actually when I started this project, I had really I had thick, thick hair and I've lost pretty much all of it.

Going to need to see the receipts on that, Luke.

But hair salons actually are great because they drive so much traffic. You have wave after wave. Every 30 minutes, you've got a new person in the chair. And so, we believe that those were really important building blocks.

Let's go through it quick. Did you guys study that? How did you ascertain that? Like, because I'll just say, I, I've been asked so many times as I talk about the building that we bought, like, the market research I did, and then I just laugh at them. I'm like, I didn't do that. I built what I wanted to see, you know, based on what I do for a job. So it's not something you could easily replicate and say, yeah, do it the way I did it, nor would I encourage people to, frankly. You know, I'd like to, I'd like to share the story and what I think it does, but it's still gonna, it's it's so dependent, I think, on place, right? But was there a way that you guys determined, besides just anecdotally, right? Because the things you just said, I, I, I'm so fine, like, I'm like, yeah, sounds true, sounds right to me. But did you, did you actually have to have some statistics or something to support those conclusions?

Yeah, again, I mean, market research would be an overstatement, you know, a little too formal for what we really did, but What we, what we did do was studied other communities that were having some success. And we did see, you know, some other up-and-coming communities. And we went and we visited them and said, what, where are the busy places? What are the patterns that we see? And so really it was just sort of that kind of informal research and seeing what was working in other places. And then once we kind of got that initial vision and we felt like, yeah, this really, this really could work. Then through the process, we did do some market listening. And so, we would put things on social media and maybe it was a picture of the front of a building or information about a building and say, "Hey guys, greater community, what would you like to see in a space like this? What do you think could be viable and necessary in our community?" So, you know, of course we got the gam— I tell people to do that with caution, okay? First of all, you gotta have thick skin, and you've also got to know that you're going to get some crazy outliers. You know, you got everything from, you know, Olive Garden to, uh, you know, a, uh, it was like an indoor skydiving place. It's like, guys, this place is 2,000 square feet. Like, right, you know, we Please read the information about it before you comment. But, you know, alas, we got lots of varied information from a lot of people. And really that has helped to inform as we've went on and continued doing more and more projects and bringing more and more businesses. It's helped to know what does the community want and where do they see the gaps are for families, for seniors, for singles. And so we want to make the downtown a place for all of those people, right? You know, this is kind of our— the heart of our city, and it's the melting pot of all the different types of folks that we have in our community. And so we do want to have things that address all those different populations and where different people feel at home.

So again, I can't wait to see the pictures because one of the things I'm trying to envision is was there, was there a downtown and your, your property was a part of it and it was just kind of people just kind of drove by it? Or was it, you know, like, so, so well, and I think maybe the big question is, did you accomplish— is this now like the heart of downtown? And, you know, or what, what, where was that? Where was the activity that you've built now? Where was that happening before? Or was it just not happening, but more like kind of spread out throughout your city, right?

Yeah.

Did you have a downtown kind of hub before?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so we, you know, it's, it's a decent-sized city, uh, and so this is not just like, you know, the only block of the downtown, right? Um, so I would say, you know, what I call our like walkable downtown is, is approximately say 10 square blocks. And so this was one of those, and some of the others, um there had been, you know, again, maybe a project here, a project there. And there are some larger buildings. There's some 6, 7-story buildings. So some substantial ones. Yeah, we did have— we are the home of a president. So President Harding back in the 1920s, he was from Marion. He did his campaign here in Marion. He owned the Marion Star, the newspaper. Here prior to becoming president. And there is a Harding Hotel that was built kind of as part of his deal, although he never saw it finished. And then we have the Harding Memorial that is here. It's actually, fun fact, is the largest memorial outside of Washington, D.C. So it's kind of a rotunda type deal. So there's kind of some So some pieces of that. And again, you can see the artifacts of a lot of affluence in the, say, the '10s, '20s, and '30s. And so anyway, our downtown has some elements to it, but this was the oldest block of the downtown and it was really some of the roughest buildings.

Yeah. Like the most neglected.

Structurally and stuff like that. Uh, the very first, um, the oldest commercial block in Marion was this block. And so we had the oldest building in the down— commercial building in the downtown, which was built in the 1830s. And that was one of our very first projects as well. So it was actually an old limestone and masonry construction. Part of it was, uh, built out of limestone. It wasn't even brick. So kind of cool.

The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns podcast studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo. North Dakota. Local and small. It's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough. And let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you.

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Today's small town shout out is Watford City, North Dakota. In 2010, the population of Watford City was 1,200 people. Fast forward just 10 quick years to 2020, their population had risen to 8,400 people due to the incredible oil boom in the Bakken in the western part of North Dakota. This is this deserves a shout out. While we all might be in our respective small towns praying for a few additional people, Watford City has had to deal with tremendous growth in a tremendously short time period. And I was just out there to visit about a year ago, and it is an incredible little town with very resilient people, and they are learning in very real time how to open their arms and open their minds and their hearts to people from all different walks of life. And I know it hasn't been easy, Watford City, but we see you, we're watching you, and we're cheering you on as you learn to adapt to a completely shifting environment in your community. So way to go, Watford City, North Dakota. Okay, so, so then I'm like curious to thinking about you guys doing this. And what I— and I love— I mean, seriously, this is such an excit— I love this. I love the story. I'm like in this with you. And then every single time I talk to somebody like you, I'm like, okay, well, now I gotta take a trip to Marion, I guess.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I like really want to come and see this. But what was the, um, response, or what kind of feedback did you get from— I'm guessing with a city of 35,000 people, you have Obviously you have city officials, you've got like a city council or whatever you call that group of humans. You, do you have an economic developer? Did you have a chamber of commerce? Who were some of these, um, who we tend to think of as the city or community leaders and what was their reaction response? Were they warm to you? Were they skeptical of you? Did they just kind of go, oh, it's these guys again. And you know, like what, or, and, and did that take time to build? Did you just kind of do it without them? What was that? What was that exchange like for you?

Yeah. Yeah. So we bought these buildings. We kind of started to, by the way, who'd you buy them from? It was a, it was a, I mean, we assembled them. We bought them from probably 5 or 6 different owners.

So it was just, yeah, no, no, that's a good question because that's, you know, they're sitting there, it's like, why aren't they, why isn't something happening? It's just because the people that owned them either didn't want to, couldn't afford to, or who knows, right?

Yeah.

But okay. Yeah.

One was bought at auction. Um, a couple others were bought together that were for sale on the market. Another had been for sale previously and never sold. We reapproached them. Um, you know, one we just kind of heard whispers that maybe they would sell. Uh, so I mean, it was a real mishmash of kind of detective work. And again, we're trying to do this all quietly because we didn't want it to come out that, you know, we're— these guys are trying to buy all these buildings and they've got big plans for them, because you know what that's going to do to the price. Even, you know, hometown guys like us, you know, people, you know, want to get the most for their, their thing. And so we did this all quietly and then kind of made some of these plans. We did some renders up, and then we came out. Um, and all that happened like fairly quickly, honestly. Probably about 3 or 4 months. We assembled the buildings, we put together some renders, we, you know, did this study and kind of had put our vision together. And then we came out and made it public via social media initially and announced our plans for what we called Main Street Reimagined, that we wanted this to be the center of our downtown. And so the The public feedback was very positive. I mean, you know, it was crazy the reach that that got. And of course got picked up by the newspaper and different folks. You know, everyone was really excited about it. 'Cause you know, I think that people want to love their downtown and even people that don't go downtown very much or didn't go downtown before that or had seen it really crumble, you know, they still, somehow inherently understood that it's important to have that downtown and it's important for it to be lively and beautiful because that really is a lot of how your community is defined, uh, by your historic downtown. And so, uh, the, you know, the, the like city government, we didn't really get a lot of engagement with them initially. There was some support from the chamber and some folks. We do not have a local economic development individual. Really?

Okay.

Well, we do sort of have for the county. They're undergoing some transition right now, honestly, but we kind of did for the county, but really they were only focused on smokestacks. So they were only pursuing—

Yes, that's surprising.

Yeah. Yeah. Manufacturers. So kind of that big whale, top-down mentality versus the grassroots, let's build it up mentality. So it is what it is. I don't— Yeah. I didn't expect them to change what they were doing just because we had a crazy idea. So we really had to prove ourselves though. I think that there was a lot of people that are really excited, but I think there was a lot of skeptics too. And of course, there was those that chirped to that effect, but not so much early on. Generally, it was very positive sentiment. But then the real work started, which was to try to figure out how are we going to actually get these fixed up? What is it really going to cost? Can we work through this process? Can we get banks to loan us money? And that was where the rubber started meeting the road and we met some real opposition and struggle that we had to work through.

What was the, uh, what were the strongest headwinds? What was the toughest part?

I mean, honestly, um, you know, I think that early on was understanding this whole idea of the commercial building code, what it took to get a building designed and work through that process, and then really get an idea what the price was going to be and then be able to get it financed. And so For that very first project, it was our wedding venue and it was, we estimated that it was going to be, we'd initially talked to like an engineer and he had thrown around some numbers and we thought that maybe it'd be about $300,000 to do this project. And this is in 2018 dollars, by the way. This almost seems absurd to even say some of these numbers anymore. But, and so that was sort of what we were working on. And so when we went through the process and we really started getting bids back and everything, it became quickly clear that it was going to be probably closer to $1 million. And, uh, so that was, that was a lot. That was more than what we had. It was more than what we planned to go and get from the bank. And, you know, I had had a landscaping business and, you know, fairly significant business for a lot of years. We had real estate, um, you know, had some proven track record. And so I thought, you know, if we go to the bank Surely, they know who we are and they will believe in this project and they'll give us the money that we need. And as it turns out, they did not. And so we learned a lot about banking and understanding how that process goes, what they're looking for in terms of what they need in order to lend on a project. And we did some tall talking, uh, we did some different projections. We went to a lot of banks, and that was what I learned, was that sometimes different banks have different appetites for different types of projects at different times. And so, uh, we went to enough that we finally got one that would kind of take a flyer on it. The terms weren't that great, and they didn't give us nearly as much as what we ultimately needed, but they were willing to syndicate with another lender, and then we were able to do some other creative financing on the project. And ultimately, we scraped together the dollars to get it done.

So I think that this really illustrates a couple of things that I think are important to point out. One is just, I don't I don't know that I've ever had anybody on the show that has so pointedly talked about the financial part of it. And I really appreciate just the honesty about that.

Sure.

Because I think there's— I don't know if there— if you've ever in your own community been faced with that question of like, oh, well, you must have gotten some grants to do this. Did anybody ever say that to you? People have said that.

Well, that's what everybody said before. They're like, oh, surely there's grants for this type of thing.

People say that's— and that is such a common thing to to say. And so we, like, in our situation, the renovation is— was not funded by anything other than a loan.

Correct. You know, and it all has to be paid back, as it turns out.

Yeah. And also, because we were not an established thing, we also were not, um, you know, we didn't— it wasn't a business that we were just taking over and locating here, you know. It was— it's a business that nobody understood. So it really just ends up being like a personal loan with our personal guarantees. You know, you're signing your life away and you're basically saying, I promise no matter what, I'll figure this out.

That's right.

And, and, but okay, so there's that, there's your side of it, right, or the, the borrower's side of it. But I also think it's important just to talk for a moment about this lender, this, because what you just described is something that if a community doesn't have that, it's really hard to get things done like what we're talking about. Don't you think you have to have somebody— the idea that you said that they worked, um, in syndicate with another bank, like, that's— and you use the term creative financing that so many bankers, like, they bristle when they hear. But what we're literally saying is, like, let's figure out a way to get it done. And then you followed it up with, and we scraped and scrapped, like, until you pulled it together. That requires a lending— a willing lender, you know, somebody like actually willing to take a risk with you to a degree, advocate for you to their credit committee or whoever they're going to. And I think that's something that's a really important piece of the puzzle to small— smaller community development. I get 35,000 people sounds big to, you know, our town's 1,800. That's still a small town by a lot of standards, you know. Are you a college town, by the way?

We are not. We, we have a couple of— we have a technical college and we have a branch of Ohio State University, but, you know, they're not super contributory to, you know, kind of what you imagine a college town.

Yes. Okay. All right. Um, so I, I really appreciate the time you took and spent on the finances because it also illustrates how truly what a risk this really was for you guys, like what you were taking on, you know.

This was just the first building, by the way.

Yeah, just one of 8.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, um, you know, I, I agree. I think that it's really important getting that lending piece because it does stop some people. And we've come into a lot of situations where people want to do a thing, whether it's fix up a building, start a business, and the, the money part can get in the way. And so I do tell people that, first of all, if you have a good enough idea and you have some data to back it up, and it's not just like a dream, like this is actually something you've thought through, you've done some research, like you're ready to, to do whatever it takes to make it happen, and you have that kind of grit, money finds those deals, you know, or those deals find money, if in other words. So, yep. It— you, you might have to knock on a lot of doors. And that's the other thing is I see people, they just give up too soon. They ask one bank and they get rejected and it's like, no, no, that doesn't mean a thing. That might just mean that they don't have an appetite for that type of thing. Their loan committee is super conservative, or you haven't, you know, you didn't find resonance with that loan officer or somebody who's really willing to go to bat for you. And, you know, really go in there with some fire and some passion to say, hey, these guys know— I met with them, like, they're going to make this happen. And they do have a track record, albeit in other industries, but I believe that this is, this is a good risk. And so you have to find all those elements. And honestly, now, you know, on the other side of having done 20 projects I can tell you that we've worked with a lot of different lenders, which was another surprise to me. I thought that, you know, we kind of like— I've only been married once. I've, you know, been married to one woman. I'm pretty loyal. Been married 20 years. And, you know, I thought we'd just kind of go the distance with the, you know, one bank. Well, as it turns out, you have to work with a lot of them and, you know, because they want to spread their risk out and, you know, but you've got to iterate and get that type of alignment with multiple lenders and tell your story and And what I will say is that having done 1 and then 2 and then 3 and 4 and 5, now we have a track record and it is a little bit easier. We have banks coming to us that are interested, but those first few, man, you got to fight for them.

Well, and what I love is that— so in a former life, I was a banker. I was on like the personal investment side. Oh, wow.

I'm not going to hold that against you, Rebecca.

Yeah, thank you. Don't. I'm reformed. We're good. Or recovered. I'm always like, "I'm a recovered banker." But it's interesting because there was a time when there's the 5 C's of credit, and one of them is character, right? In really big cities where it's just— the relationship still matters, right? And that's how that character piece can come into play. Like, if you get a lender that really aligns with you, with your passion, with your interest, and then, like you said, we'll go to bat for you, we'll advocate for you. I think that that is relationships move the needle on a lot of pieces of, of a project along a timeline like what you're talking about. You know, there's this, this massive project, you're gonna need people that'll come alongside you all along the way. Um, and so I just think it's, it's cool. It's important to remind people of that too, that, that like you said, they're not all going to be for you, right? There's some of them, just like you said, it's either an appetite, who knows, it might be a conservative approach low risk tolerance, whatever it is. Um, but the same holds true with every single partner that you need, that you can't just give up when, when you get that first no.

That's right, that's right. Yeah. And I mean, the same then goes, you know, this is Entrepreneurship and Small Business 101, you know. I mean, I, I learned through getting the door closed in my face, you know, for years, and, you know, with customers and and lenders and suppliers or whatever the case is, you just have to have a short memory about that kind of stuff and be able to go to the next one and just keep your passion and really believe that you have something that people would be foolish not to, to go with you on the journey, you know, and you have to be convinced of it first and foremost. And I've, I've coached more than one entrepreneur to have that type of attitude that you've, you've just got to go for it and you've got to believe in it wholeheartedly. And you can't be swayed by others that don't believe yet, because if you keep working at it, they're going to come around and they're going to believe in it too.

Yeah. So, okay, I, I have an interesting question. And again, you didn't know, I— we don't script them here, so this is hitting you for the first time.

Fire away. It's only fair. I've asked tough questions other people, you know, and I get it turned around here.

But as you're, as you're thinking about about, um, let's even just take this first project, excuse me, which was your wedding venue. Can you think of— actually, I'm not— I'll make it easier. Any of the 8, any of the 20, okay? Uh, can you think of a person that was really, really skeptical, like almost to the point where they were a detractor, like a naysayer, and at some point they turned? Like, you didn't maybe turn them because you, you used a phrase, you just said they don't see it yet. Which I think is so important. If you're a visionary human and you've got this big idea, it can be hard to paint a picture of something that some people have never seen or experienced and then expect them to get it and get on board with you. Um, and sometimes you need to get all the way to the finish line then and continue to invite them. And then they walk in the front doors and they're like, oh, Now I get it, you know? And you're like, where were you 4 years ago? You know what I mean? Like, that just— there's a real evolution of that. Do you have a person or a situation that stands out?

Well, one that comes to mind, you know, I think the reality is that there was a lot of people that probably felt that way and that probably were kind of like, you know, we'll see if these guys, you know, this, you know, is really for real. This seems like an awfully big undertaking. There's a reason no one's done this yet. That. But, uh, I do remember one particular situation where it was before— it was after we had started assembling these buildings, but before we went public with it. And I had just told a few close family and friends that this was kind of happening and this is what we were doing. And so one of them I'd met for lunch, and we were out standing on the sidewalk kind of looking up at one of the, the buildings, and it was one that was vacant. And a lady came along. I won't say who she was, but she was someone kind of known in the community. And she came along and she said, "What are you guys looking at?" And, you know, I was kind of like— I didn't say anything because I was like, uh, I don't— well, we're not coming public with this yet. What am I going to say? I don't want to lie to this lady. Uh, and so my friend said, uh, "Oh, we're just, you know, just dreaming a little bit about things. And she looked up and she said, "Well, I hope somebody tears this building down because it sure would make a better parking lot than it does just standing here rotten." And, you know, it, it kind of stung a little bit, but, you know, the reality was I— again, you got to have thick skin to do this kind of work. And so I just recognized that that some people just don't have the vision naturally for what these things can be. And so it was a great reminder of the fact that we have to paint the picture for people and we have to literally give them a picture. You know, this is why we render things and, you know, create these, you know, different artists and computer-generated things. And because they don't have the vision. And so it's a, it's a— it's a gift that I have. It's an opportunity that I have. It's a blessing. Sometimes it feels like a curse, but it's also a challenge to remember that not everyone can see it. So we have to be very articulate in the way that we share what something could be in the future.

So that particular building, what is that one now?

That is now a a boutique on the first floor and a beautiful, cool, uh, loft apartment above it.

Have you ever seen this lady, like, walk into the boutique? Have you ever gotten to see that happen yet?

She works nearby, so I have to assume that she's probably going in and out of the space.

And because that's just it, like, wouldn't it be interesting? And again, I'm not in any way suggesting that we should spend a lot of time dwelling on the naysayers, but I just think it's very real that this lady— you used the phrase, like, prominent or well known in the community. It's understandable that someone would make a comment like that. But if you asked her now, would a parking lot be better than this? There's no way she would make that same statement.

Right.

Of course. And so the whole thing is, it's all about— I think there's so much to be said about energy protection and kind of idea protection, protecting your plans and not hiding them. Or, you know, there's this— I think it really can be a really tough balance to strike in transparency and public input, you know, versus giving, like, giving it all away and completely opening yourself up to unnecessary criticism by people that would never— you know, again, like, I, I talk a lot about the fact that one of the most important filters for me is like, would I ever ask this person for their advice? And if not, then I don't need to accept their criticism either. Um, but it's hard, you know, like especially when these people are people that you do life with or that you expect to see or have to, have to run into, you know.

Yeah, yeah. A friend of mine that does this kind of work in another community, you know, he uses the term that we are we are lightning rods sometimes, you know, we, we get sometimes some of the, the good things. But a lot of times we're absorbing a lot of the, the bad energy that's, that's out there and the misunderstandings and misinformation that might circulate about different things. And, you know, there can be other feelings of jealousy or some things like that that also come. And I mean, that's the It's the challenge and the opportunity of working in a smaller community where everyone knows you, you know them. And especially in today's day and age, we're all accessible. People can Google my phone number or email address or whatever, and they can reach out to me directly. And some of them say, you know, some of them say innocuous things or tell me their idea. Some of them say, pretty hurtful things, and we have to be able to absorb—

sorry to hear that, but I— yeah, it literally just kind of comes— it comes with the territory.

It does, it does. Yeah.

Okay, so just tell us of your 8 properties, these original 8 properties, what are they all today?

Yeah, so, um, we have the, the wedding venue, um, one became an ice cream shop that we operated for about 4.5 years, and then we recently transitioned it to a bakery that is owned by someone else. So we're no longer operating that business. Another is a couple of— a few of them are boutiques with loft apartments above. One of them has a photography studio above. There's one that's now a coffee shop. With apartments above it and a hair salon with, again, apartments above. So there's, uh, you know, really, again, you kind of see that theme of the ecosystem that we created. And then totally the beauty is that others have come along beside, you know, this hasn't been a one-man or two-man show.

Yeah, right.

We really felt like we could catalyze something, and we could create this district, and then others would come along beside. And so there was a, a group of a few guys that, that bought a building and, uh, created a microbrewery, and they operate the business, they own the building, and they're on that same block. There's another guy, great story, uh, he was an insurance agent and was retired for like 3 weeks and got bored, and he had always wanted to own a deli, and so he and his wife wife bought a building and fixed it up and created a great little deli where they serve, you know, soup and sandwiches and, and all of this. They put an apartment above it as well. Um, another one with, you know, they bought a building, turned it into an office on that block. There was another group that came together. It was our local, um, health center that was partially government-funded, and they were able to figure out a way to get some grants. They were actually— got some grants. Well, we have not, but they were being a nonprofit. Yeah, we're able to buy a vacant couple of buildings and they put in a small grocery store. And so Corner Grocery Store. Yeah, beautifully done, but small. But they have, you know, fresh produce, some, you know, meats and frozen entrees and canned goods and different things like that. No lottery, no tobacco, no alcohol. And so, you know, it's really, uh, focused on, on the food aspect. And so especially as we started building all these loft apartments and bringing offices down and different things like that, it's like, wow, great to have that amenity. Even restaurants, you know, to go run and get a few items that they run out of on, you know, Thursday morning or something randomly. They don't have time to get a delivery in the— but they can go get some, you know, some cheese from the place down the street. So different things like that, um, just started popping up. And so then, you know, we got done with a lot of the work on that block, and we've moved on to a couple of other blocks and just continued that and trying to see what is going, you know, what's the highest and best use for this building and And where have we maybe met someone that could help activate this place and operate a business that's going to be what the community needs and that jives with the other ecosystem that we have in the downtown?

Well, so it's funny, as you're saying that Marion County doesn't really have economic development, you are. That's what this is. I mean, it's 100% what this is. It's almost like you create your own downtown business. Improvement District, right? Which is a thing that bigger cities have. But it's so scrappy, the way that you approach it. So scrappy and so grassroots and so basically just private sector led, right? Which I just think is such an interesting way to see this stuff happen. And man, they are— I don't know if they're running around always saying, wow, we're so lucky to have you. That would probably be weird if they were, but they are We are truly very, very lucky to have you. Are you— you're a native, native Sumerian, born and raised there? Or like, tell me that part of your story.

I'm from nearby. I'm like from one county over. My wife is from Marion, so we compromised and moved to Marion when we got married. So that was— yeah, so that was almost 20 years ago. That we moved here to Marion. So yeah, I mean, I consider myself a hometown guy, but I mean, this is where we're raising our children. Our kids go to school here locally. And so again, those were the thoughts that as we looked around, and it's like, man, what do we want this community to become? You know, we have family here, I have another business here, uh, we have people that we love that live here, and we want this to be the kind of community that we all can be proud of. And If we can be a piece of that to create a downtown that we're proud of and that can radiate out through the city and through the county and it, you know, generates pride and entrepreneurship and these other pieces that we believe are really part of a flourishing community, then we want to be part of that.

It's so great to meet you, truly. And I think the last question I want to ask you is— was there any kind of downriver benefits from this initial risk that you took? Because literally we're talking 7 years ago. Like, that's— that is a— that is not that long ago. I mean, realistically. And to imagine what you've done in 7 years is astounding. Um, but are there any, you know, is in the form of a person or a business that started or Because this created for sure a massive ripple effect of positivity and good things. Like you shared some of them even just in the initial block. But was there anything that you've experienced in these 7 years that you were actually surprised by that you literally can say, my goodness, this is why— I mean, kind of a, this is why we did this, whether it was personal for you or something that you saw kind of unfold or happen in the community.

Yeah, um, I think that so much of it early on was, um, again, this is a longer story than what we have time for, but we opened our wedding venue, um, right before COVID So that opened— that was a whole other challenge that got created. But through kind of the digging out of that, we did a lot of events, um, And I was— again, we were scrappy. We were super scrappy. And so my, my partner and I, my kids, my wife, we were working these events. And the benefit of that though is that I got to be eyeball to eyeball with people as I was, you know, bartending or setting up or doing this or that. And, you know, really trying to make this happen. We were just kind of fighting for our lives. But in the meantime What I saw was the building of community and the building of pride in our community and the support of local people wanting to be part of making sure that these things stayed. And I've become such an advocate for that. I mean, I'm kind of beating that drum all the time of, you know, hey, we've got to support these things if we want them to stick around. We we can fix up old buildings and we can help recruit businesses or help people launch stuff, but if we don't have the support of our locals, then everything's not gonna stay around. But to see that happen was really, really gratifying. To just see that kind of community spirit come to the forefront and affect people's decision-making and seeing them bringing their friends and family around to being proud of where they lived and proud of the, the venues and the restaurants and the watering holes and the shops that were popping up in their downtown and their hometown has been really, really gratifying.

I bet. And I mean, honestly, try to imagine what kind of COVID and post-COVID, that really difficult time would've been like had they not had your place with event. You know, I think there's, without question, I can picture that your investment, your projects allowed your community to move and maneuver through that more quickly and with less social fallout, with less social isolation, because that was just a brutal time to be alive. It was a really bizarre experience to just not be able to do things as freely and easily as we had gotten accustomed to. It was just really scary. But I really believe that your And you couldn't have known that. I mean, also, I'm sure, I'm sure, because I like, literally, I bought— we bought our building at the end of 2020. So we're renovating right in, you know, high supply chain, long—

yes, right.

Yeah. Lead times and everything. And there were plenty of times where I was just like, this is never going to work, you know, in the middle of it.

You're just like, oh, yes, I'm with you.

I don't even know what we're doing or why we're doing this. And then it is— it's usually for me too, it's always back to the people. I have a moment where, you know, there's like, or there's multiple generations at one thing at one time in our space. And I'm like, ah, like this, this is why we did this, you know?

Yes.

So thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I figured you had to have something that stood out to you because that's what keeps you going. That's what, that's what makes you keep looking to the next thing. And so speaking of the next thing, what's next for you? What are you in the middle of now? What are you thinking about doing?

Yeah, well, we, um, we still got more vision, uh, to, to hopefully realize. We've got a couple more buildings that we've, um, that we own that we're kind of putting some feasibility studies on and trying to figure out. These would be bigger and bigger projects, and as, as you know, construction costs continue to be very challenging trades, labor, labor and everything, you know, just continuing to be a challenge. So we're trying to figure out, you know, how can we make these things work? But right now we're coming hopefully very soon to the finish line of a multi-year project for actually one of the buildings that we bought as part of that initial 8. It was the biggest out of those 8. We did not start it originally. We scoped it out, priced it out in 2021, and at that time we were looking at construction costs of about $1.3 million to do this project. Fast forward to today with some changes we've made, um, outfitting for— it is a few restaurant spaces and then 9 apartments— and construction cost increases and all these things, we're looking at a total price now of $3.5 million, and it has been the most challenging project that we've gotten into. Uh, it is our first historic tax credit project, so that's, uh, a story we could say for another time.

Something new.

Oh my goodness, yes, we have learned so much on, on this one about the historic tax credit project. So that is the saving grace that while I say, you know, we've gotten Really, only 3% of our total project investment to date has been from any kind of grants or, you know, federal or state funding. This is going to be a significant chunk. So that is a saving grace of even with the cost overruns, we're— I mean, we're still way, way, way over, but we will get a portion of that back. The federal tax credit is 20%. Not every dollar qualifies, but, um, you know, we've learned through that. We've had a lot of different challenges with some different building systems and structural issues and contractor things, and we've just— we've gotten a lifetime of education, I think, on this project. And, uh, I had a friend say, I'm gonna— I'm, I'm really gonna enjoy reading your book about this. Oh man, I might. You—

it sounds like you have a book in you for sure, because it's just— it really does take a special kind of person to, to attack buildings specifically the way that you are. And it's just— it's awesome to know you. Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing just the story, this, this entire story. Um, I can't wait to see the photos. Um, yes, and you know, we'll, we'll share those as part of this, this podcast episode release, but— just keep fighting the good fight. Every community needs people like you. Marion's very, very lucky to have you, Luke.

Yeah, well, thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. I love talking with others that are passionate about this kind of work. And, and ultimately, I really hope, Rebecca, that, uh, somebody from your audience would become not only educated but hopefully inspired to take some of this information and, and take a leap. You know, life is short. And our communities need us. And there's a lot of great people out there that are willing to come along beside you to help these projects happen. And whether you have an idea for a business or a building or whatever it might be, it is such a gift to your community to be able to give that. Now, that said, it will probably be the hardest thing that you ever do. And I mean, I was completely unprepared for the challenges heartache. I mean, sleepless nights like you wouldn't believe, you know, over the last 7 years. But I also believe that it's a really enduring legacy that hopefully we're able to leave for our community. And just like a lot of other people did before us, uh, to create what we have today, we've got to continue to pay it forward if we want to have communities that we can be proud of.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, like, I have absolutely nothing to add to that. That's so beautifully said. And the only, the only thing I'll add is that it is the fastest way to develop your character.

Oh, yes. That'll preach.

You are sitting in front of me. You're this person because of every single challenging thing that you faced and got through, right? Like you said, life is short. And I just think there's nothing more gratifying than overcoming some of the hurdles that are going to accompany a journey like yours. So I love that. I, I hope too that our listeners feel inspired. I know I certainly am, uh, and for sure we're gonna have to have you back. I just feel like— okay, now we're friends, Luke. That's—

yes, absolutely, absolutely. Well, I've got— yeah, I've got a lot more lessons in me that I can share for the benefit of someone else. I've, I've fallen down enough times that I've learned some things, so I can, uh, keep throwing it over my shoulder to hopefully help those that are coming along behind.

Yeah, it's fantastic. Thanks so much for being here.

You bet. Thank you.

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