Season 5, Episode 11 - Small Town People Problems: Negative Local Voices with Heidi Kerr-Schlaefer

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Heidi Kirschlafer, and she is the owner and founder of Heidi Town Consulting. She joins us today to tackle another one of these small town people problems that are being shared with us as like, here's the thing we're struggling with most as it relates to people in our community. So today's topic is all about how do we deal with local negativity, um, when the people within our town, the people who actually reside in our towns, are the ones that maybe aren't speaking as well about it as they could. Heidi has a lot of experience over 17 years of traveling the back roads, primarily in Colorado but beyond that, and she fancies herself like a visitor. She loves to visit and tour people's communities.. And so she has, brings a lot to this conversation. And I think the most refreshing part about our conversation today is, is simply that every single one of the things we're about to share with you are things that every single one of us can do. Enjoy this conversation with Heidi. Well, hi Heidi, welcome to the show. So happy to have you here.

I am really happy to be here.

So, um, as I kind of said in my intro, it's really fun. We, we've talked a bit, um, on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is where we met, right? And I put air quotes around met, of course, because we've never met in person. But is that— that is right where we start, where our connection first started.

Yeah, I found you actually because I was looking for small town people who have small town experience with rural communities for Heidi Town Consulting. And I found you, your podcast. I started listening, but then I was like, oh, I wonder if she's on LinkedIn. I looked you up and stalked you. And then tracked you down and said, hey, we had a meeting.

So yeah, it was great. I know, I love that. And I, again, I think both of us have talked about, um, the, the impact that can be made, the connections that can be made, um, with and through social media. Like, it— I know it can be kind of a— it can be kind of a cesspool in certain places, I think, still kind of icky. But LinkedIn, you can really make— I think LinkedIn is a great place to, to find people. It's my favorite. I do too.

I think everyone's, everyone's sort of on their professional behavior there.

Right.

And I, I just find it somewhat sometimes refreshing to go there after I've been on like Facebook or X or something.

Right. I don't even— I literally, I haven't had an X account now for quite a while. So yeah, it's one of the places that I think is kind of safe or more neutral maybe.

Yeah. And actually you make real connections there, I think, because everyone's there to make real connections.

Right. Yep, totally agree. So why don't you tell us a bit about your consulting and the work that you do, and then we'll kind of segue out of that into the topic we're generally going to speak about.

So, well, my background is actually in 2006, I got a job for newspaper writing as a reporter with no real experience. My degrees are in philosophy and political science, and I was a pre-law student. But I sort of had an epiphany in my 20s, and I was like, I don't think I want to go to law school after studying for the LSAT and working for attorneys. And so I started at HowYouTown.com because I was writing in 2006, and everyone kept saying, you should have a blog. You should have a blog. And I'm like, what's a blog?

Yeah. How does that work?

Yeah, it was very new in 2006. So in 2007, I started How You Town. And I was kind of all over the place, a little scattered. I was reviewing movies and books and restaurants, and it was just the audience was kind of all over the place. And I kind of focused in around 2010, about the time that the beer, craft beer was taking off. And so I was able to sort of do something without planning on it, but do something which was writing about beer festivals that no one was really doing at the time.

Mm-hmm.

And so I started advertising beer festivals or writing about about beer festivals. And by doing that, I started traveling around a lot. And then it just sort of kind of organically became a travel writer in the road trip realm. So not getting on planes and going to Iceland, but getting in your car and going to North Platte, Nebraska, or going to, you know, the San Luis Valley in Colorado. So that is what I did from 2007 to now. I still do heiditown.com. I still, but I have stopped pretty much all freelance writing as of the beginning of 2023 and started Heidi Town Consulting, which is directly related to my work with HeidiTown.com because of driving around to so many small towns and so many communities that I fell in love with every time. I realized when I talked to people at the brewery or at the coffee shop, because I talked to everyone, drive my husband crazy, but I talked to people and they were apathetic about where they lived. And so it had actually been my, uh, sort of preaching sermon for a long time of loving where you live. So since 2014, I've been writing about that on HeidiTowne.com. Get out your back door, like go, go discover, you know, what's amazing in your own state as opposed to getting on a plane and flying to another continent. And so I've been preaching this, but I've kind of melded it all together. So HeidiTowne Consulting, the beginning of 2023, I started doing some part one tourism consulting because obviously my background is in tourism, but also the public speaking part of it, which I didn't realize was going to be as big as it is and as popular as it is because I think people want to hear. I think people are ripe for this, hearing something very positive about their community. And so I preach love where you live, kind of twisted little different for depending on who my audience is. I might have an audience of business owners. I'm gonna tweak it a little bit. I also own a company with my husband called Ryan Schleifer Fine Furniture, and we've owned that for 20 years. So I am a small business owner. We have not— either one of us worked for anyone since 2008. He hasn't worked for anyone since 2004.

So that's new information to me, by the way. I didn't know you owned a furniture store. That's awesome. I love that. It's not a store.

It's not a store.

Okay. Sorry.

No. We are to the trade. So we are 2 interior designers who then sell it, you know, on. But we often go to, you know, the client's house and see. Ryan's very much in the custom world, and we have our own collections as well. But it's kind of cool because what I've been able to do is when I talk and do presentations, I feel like when you are a business owner, you get a little bit more respect from, from a group of people who are also business owners because it's kind of a weird road to go down, and we're all kind of going down it together.

For sure. Yeah. Yep. For sure. I totally agree. I totally agree. In fact, I mean, I just think there's— it's credibility, I think, is what it is. You know, for people in the audience, it's one thing to have a perspective on it if it's like from an academic perspective or it's somewhat of a theoretical or conceptual perspective. Those are not the same for most people as lived experience. I mean, I just think that's true. Yeah, that's really cool though. I had no idea. I didn't know that.

Yeah. So that's, that's actually, I think, been really helpful. I think Ryan, my husband Ryan Schlafer, is like one of my biggest supporters because he— I'm so lucky to have somebody in my life who is such a, you know, pro small business guy. He's like, go do it, try it. Let's, let's, you know, let's do it. And so I have 100%, 110% backing on this journey of Hidetown Consulting.

So, yeah. So, okay, let's— but let's back up. So you said something that I think is going to kind of take us into topically what you and I had visited about. You said the phrase that you were finding when you were traveling to these communities and you were talking to locals that people were apathetic. So, like, what does that sound like? Maybe talk to me a little bit about why the label of apathy, because I think it's a very specific word, right? And let's just talk about what what can we do? Because what, like, what does it really mean to love where you live? And how, through the lens of, or the eyes of a tourist, basically, have you seen opportunities for us to be better? I guess we'll start there and kind of see where that goes.

But yeah, well, one thing I think, and I, I just remember incidents of being at breweries and chatting about how great this little town is, and, you know, talking to someone beside I mean, that sort of gives you that blank look, like, really, you like this town? I also get the question of why are you here? Because Ryan and I often visit towns that aren't necessarily the tourist destination, right?

Sure. Right.

I feel strongly that those towns are just— can have just as much character and strength of character as any other place. But Yeah. So I lost my train of thought.

Well, what are they saying to you? Like, when you— when, you know, and they're like— so first of all, it's the blank— excuse me, the blank stare and the wait and the kind of the wait, what? You like it here? And then also, I think, like you said, the what are you doing here? Yeah.

Why are you here?

Why are you here?

Why are you here? Like, what brought you to this town? And I I think over the years of having that exact same discussion, you're, uh, town after town, you know, you just sort of start talking them. I really at this point start talking to them about what I do and I say, you know, these are the reasons I think your town is amazing. You have amazing architecture. It is a beautiful town. I am in some, you know, historic towns where yes, a lot of places have that like 1970s front on them that they haven't taken off yet. But, you know, there's some beautiful building back there. But a lot of, a lot of towns do have this beautiful architecture. And in Colorado, we are so lucky because we can just look up. Most of us can look up and see the mountains at any time. And, but we forget to look up. We just get stuck, I think, you know, taking the kids to practice and doing the things that we have to do during the day. And we just forget to look up. And so I like to think of, you know, when I, when I talk to people, it's just, you know, reminding them. I hate to say it over and over, but towns, the way they look to me, I love the way towns look. I love architecture. I love the, and I think every little town has, has something a little different, but they also have something a little bit like this, this town is cute because we all know a cute downtown when we see it. I know that's a horrible thing. I feel like that's not the right thing to say, but, um, No, I think—

but I think it is. I think, okay, so there's, there's some things that are just truisms, and I think that's one of them, that cute, cute, yes, is, is kind of subjective, but there's actually some objective things that make a place cute or not, you know. So maybe let's, let's talk about what some of those things might be, right? Like if a town is well kept.

Yes.

You know, and well maintained and it's clean.

I will tell you one thing. I was in Gothenburg, Nebraska, in February doing a Love Where You Live kickoff campaign for them. And they're a town of 3,700 people. And I got out of the truck and I heard music playing and I was like, where is that music coming from? They put music in their downtown.

Yeah.

Town of 3,700 people.

Yeah.

I was in shock. I, I've never experienced that in a town that size. You might expect that in a town that's like Denver or whatever, but I just thought that was so cool.

Yeah. And it's— and honestly, it's— there's maybe some expense of your hardwiring and speakers and things like that, but the premise isn't expensive and it doesn't have to be expensive. Right. Okay. So that was one. And that's a multisensory thing. So I think that's something we could give as a tip to our audience, right? Think about all of the senses and how can we engage more of them?

Absolutely. I absolutely love and I follow Molly Alexander, who preaches RE, Return on Emotion. And that—

I've never heard of this person. I've never heard of this person.

She's out of Texas and she's doing some work right now in Longmont. And she was a speaker at a conference I was at. I was already a fangirl because I had heard her webinar and attended one of her Main Street America webinars. And she talks about We've all heard of return on investment, which is, you know, very easy to, like, A to B to C. But return on emotion is much harder to calculate. And it's joy plus belong plus trust. So it's joy plus trust plus belong. And so you run, you run everything through that as a town. So your, even your mission statement to how does, how do people experience joy on the, on your sidewalks. So it's really, it's really complex. Um, and, and I've, I've I just think it's just a wonderful way that, that kind of tickles the right side of my brain, which I'm a much more right side of my brain person. And I really like that concept of how do I feel on this sidewalk of a place, right? And I think, again, that's the thing that we're talking about. When somebody lives there, they kind of forget that feeling because they're on that sidewalk every day, right?

I know. I totally get that. So I think— so let's just talk like practicality. What can you know? Because a lot of the people that listen to our show, they're not necessarily elected leaders. Not necessarily, right? You know, sometimes they are. A lot of times they really are just people that love their, like, love their community and want to make it better. So if they're listening to this and they feel like they might have a problem with kind of a negative narrative of— and again, I want to make this really clear, I don't think anybody is out there badmouthing their towns on purpose. I don't, I don't think it's a thoughtful thing. I think it's kind of happening subconsciously. Um, but if you feel like— if people are listening to this and they feel like they have this in their communities, what, what can they do about it, Heidi? Like, what, what would you suggest they do about it? When you go and visit communities, what do you, what do you offer them for encouragement?

I think the very first thing that you can do is you be the positivity, you be the light. So if you're on some Facebook forum, which are terrible places, but— and people are being negative, you could be that positive place. I, I look at my own town, what's happening right now is we're having a very big construction project downtown, and it's really probably very hard on those business owners. And I never want to be someone who's like ignoring, ignoring what's wrong. There's always going to be some things in our communities that are challenging, like construction projects on downtown Main Street. But try to be that positive voice. It just, it just takes one individual And if more and more individuals would do that and be that positive voice, for instance, this park, this, this construction project, you know, it's going to be amazing. We have to keep the end in sight. And, and if I'm going to make a comment on something out there on social media, be that positive comment of, hey, B Sweet Cupcakes is down there. Make sure you go down and you give them some business during this time period.

Right.

Just be that. It really starts with you. I preach and preach and preach. It starts with you. It starts with the individual realizing that they actually make a difference. And so it's one person at a time. That sounds cliché, but it's so true.

Well, I think it does sound cliché, but I feel like that feels really resonant for how I speak to audiences too, because I just think it's really easy to underestimate the impact that one single person with their voice can make. But the other thing, too, is once somebody does that, decides to be that person, the rest of the people that feel that way or want to be that way, they do kind of come out of the woodwork. Like, somebody technically, I think somebody has to go first.

Yeah.

And so I think the other thing that's important, at least to me, about this is that it doesn't— community, being a champion for your community doesn't live in City Hall.

Right.

Only, right? Like, it would be super great if all of our elected officials, like, did that. But I think this is something that every single person can do. You can use your voice. You can be a force for good. You can remind people of the good things.

Yeah.

Um, and I don't— go ahead. No, you're good. Go ahead.

And no offense to people who are at City Hall and do that work every day. It's hard work.

It is.

But however, people have a very powerful voice, actually. The people that actually live in a community, they just don't really know where to put it or how to be, you know. And so that's, that's the thing that you, as a resident, you have more power than you realize. And it can start with just that, what we're talking about, just that being positive in comments that you're putting on social media. That's one little thing.

Exactly. Exactly. Well, and even like you said, I love the idea because I think every community at some point is going to face like an infrastructure project, whether it's streets, sewers, get, you know, you know, water systems, like, like massive construction and a lot of disruption. So even just thinking about how can you love on those business owners that are impacted by the lack of accessibility, right? And, and just go out of your way to shout them out, go out of your way to stop in and say hi to them. Like, These are simple things that every single person can do, no matter how small their town is too. That's the other reason I think this is so important.

Yeah, exactly. And so the other ways I would say— so I, I say it starts with you and it starts with that mind shift into being more positive about your community out there when you're writing stuff. But also I think too, we have to recognize— I preach in Love Where You Live the how and the why. So why do you love where you live and how do you love where you live? And really that how is being positive, but but it's also knowing what you have, knowing your assets, reminding yourself. And so I say there are 3 different kinds of assets. There are tangible assets, something like a really good hamburger, right? Or tacos. I talk a lot about food. Uh, so tangible assets, a park would be a tangible asset.

Sure.

Yep. I'm gonna talk about intangible assets. Now that is something that I think people are shocked when they find out that this matters. I have an explanation for that. So Rangely, Colorado is one of the tiniest little towns, but one of the friendliest places I've ever gone. It was like 15 years ago. Friendliness was their asset, their intangible asset. They had friendliness and it was so apparent that I ended up writing about it. And then I still have readers from Rangely, Colorado because I recognized something amazing about their community. That they were really proud of, that I recognized that. And so I say you have intangible assets. So tangible, intangible, and then natural. We in Colorado have tons, but you know what? I just spoke in Nebraska. They have tons of natural resources too. You know, they have Lake McConaughy. They have 80,000— I think it's 80,000 miles of river. Like, if you— it's a lot of water. Way more than I ever realized. So, so those are the 3 things. And I think when we really stop and we actually consider what we have, then that leads to, okay, I'm proud of that. I'm happy that I have that. That is so cool that I have the access to that. And so we, we start just layering on, right? Layering on the positivity.

Right, right. It's, it's interesting. I think The fact that you came to this work through tourism is interesting, not surprising to me, you know, because again, I think there's something really powerful about a fresh set of eyes going somewhere. One of the, one of the, and I'm just gonna share this because I think this is an idea, whether, so we actually got to do this program and it was like a community exchange program through our, uh, Extension program through NDSU. So, you know, every state is a land-grant university. They probably have an extension service, right? So check with your local extension service from your land-grant university and find out if you've got one of these programs. But if not, this is something you actually could just— you could do this on your own. But basically it was with us in a community about 50, like almost 60 miles away, and we did a community impressions like this exchange program where there was a group of us from Oaks drove to Valley City and we walked and we went through Valley City with the eyes of complete visitors. Now, we've been there a bunch of times, right? But we had this like actual intentional plan of how we were talking to people, how we were engaging with people. And then they had the same come here.

It's—

it was such a cool experience because also we're all trying to help each other get better, right? So there's, there's no negativity. You're— we've got to bring up the things that could be better, of course. But it's all given with a constructive, a constructive lens, right? We want to help you. We're not trying to cut you down. It is just, it's just fascinating. The idea of going somewhere, even if you've been there before, and actually taking it in with some mindfulness and thoughtfulness. I mean, people should do that in their own backyards. Yeah. You know, it's like, just evaluate, drive into your town from every, you know, entrance point you can and really see what it— what are you seeing there? Like you said, look up. Just actually look up and look around and make note of what— of what's there. It's, it's a really fascinating experiment.

It, it really, really is, I think. And, and it's, it's interesting for me because I spend so much time out of my own downtown that when I go there, it's easy— it's easier for me to actually have those eyes of being you know, a little touristy, like, yeah, you're trained to do it, you're practiced at it. Yeah, I'm practiced. Yeah, exactly. And I think we have to remember too that people live where they want to play, and, and we have a, we have a, we have a world where people can move around so much more now with remote work. So they're picking spots based on, on if, if they had a wonderful vacation there, if they had a wonderful buying there. They're picking those spots to live. People don't live in places or don't choose to live regularly, especially now, in places they don't want to be. They're, they're, they're so much more— they're more able to live wherever they want to be. And so we have to keep that in mind too. That's such an important—

and I'm going to add one other thing to it. I also think people move to where their favorite people are. So, so I think that's something to think about. Like I've said this to communities, I've said this to my own community. It's like if there are people, like if you moved back, we have a lot of people that have come back to our community, which is awesome, right? The returners. It's so great. And I just look at them. I'm like, well, what about friends you made when you were away? Are any of those people you'd love to do life with? And what would it look like if we invited them to come back or to move here? Right. Even if they don't have— and I know that sounds crazy, but it's actually not. Because that's what those—

it's—

there's got to be a— there's, there's got to be a tie. And so it might, like you say, it might be experience. Like they had a great, a great experience. Why would we not, as residents of our small towns, want to give our friends, families, love— like loved ones, give them that opportunity? We, we need to do the inviting. And that to me is like a large driver of visitorship in communities versus tourism, especially if you're in a town that doesn't traditionally have what you would think of as tourism. You know, like my little— we don't have like specific landmarks necessarily, right? There's some very cool things for people to see here, but you wouldn't necessarily find them in a, in a tourism magazine, like when I do, if that makes sense. So I just think those are some things to think about. It's personal, right? The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns podcast studio located in Oaks, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough, and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge, and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you. Today's small town shout out is Sean Miller and the city of Pullman, Washington. Congratulations on opening your newest coworking center, the Gladish Collective. We love a coworking space around here. We famously have one one in our, uh, headquarters here at 510 Main Avenue in Oaks. And when we met Sean, they were just going to be launching it the very next day, and they did. And they're creating a space for people to gather, to work, to brainstorm, to connect, to collaborate, to be creative— all the things that we think make communities vibrant places to live. So congratulations to Sean and the entire city of Pullman, Washington.

Yep, it's first of all, when I do tourism consulting, I, I, I look at the people who are visiting your communities. So, so in Colorado, if you have a comp plan by— comprehensive plan by a city done, the city decides to do a comprehensive plan, they have to include a tourism section. So I can't— I think most of our smaller communities who aren't necessarily tourist places are probably a little bit like really seriously have to do a tourism component to this, right? I say, and, and that is my kind of niche, is like a smaller rural community. I say, okay, how about we not call them tourists? How about we call them visitors? Because I'm coming to see Grandma, right? Or I'm coming for a baseball tournament, or I'm coming for whatever it is, business travel. There are so many people that touch your town in a tourist way that once we use the word tourist, especially in Colorado, you're kind of shutting down the conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah. When you were talking about visitors, that's exactly right. When you talk about small communities that aren't the Breckenridge— Breckenridges or Vales of Colorado, uh, that pull people in just because it's a cool name and everyone knows it, right? You know? Yeah. So that, that— it's just, we have to realize how many people actually touch our towns. And like, what, what are they, what kind of experience are they having? And I'm sorry, I'm backing up a little bit more into the tourism part of it. But again, let's not call it tourism. Let's call it visitorship.

Right.

It really changes that, that mindset.

Well, it does. I mean, it just literally, even when just now you said, you know, baseball, you think about every single baseball game that gets hosted in your town and you just look around, half of the people came to you, right? Like, there's another community probably coming to play baseball in your town, and that means all of their visitors or all of their fans are visitors. And so just what are we doing to make that experience the best that it can be? And I do— I think about this. This is the kind of stuff that I think about all the time, and I know you do too. Clearly, it's like the, you know, foundational to your work. But I just think I think it helps every small community again think differently about, about what they're like. You said what their assets are, what they should be proud of, and just how you're talking to those people that you're engaging with, you know, whether it's in the park or you're walking down Main Street and it's new people, just really being thoughtful about that impression because especially when it's human to human, it speaks so much more loudly than our websites. Our websites are important. I mean, we've got a great one. I'm proud of it, right? But it doesn't, it doesn't replace me being happy, smiley, asking them questions, telling them I hope they have a great time while they're here. All of us have an opportunity to do that every single day.

It's a mindset shift. I mean, that's exactly— you hit the nail on the head. It's a mindset shift. You have to be— it's, it's something that You and I work on it every day. I want this to be natural to me, right? I want this to be— I love my community and this is, this is what comes out of it. But yes, I mean, it is, it's shifting your mind to realize all these assets you have. You're proud of this place and it just kind of comes out, right? It just comes out magical ways. And I do have, I do have one example that Yeah, please do.

Please share it.

Belfouche, South Dakota.

I'm familiar. I've been.

Black Hills. Yes, Black Hills. I think there are about 3,500. My website designer actually moved there from, from Loveland to, to Belfouche. And so I've actually been out there too, and I think it's a beautiful little community. But she told me a really interesting story, which I've told a lot, but they had a, a blizzard in their town. South Dakota does. And they had every single— so this town is on the intersection of 3 pretty major highways and everything shut down. Everything. You know, you couldn't have any traffic on the roads. All the gas stations shut down. They have 2 little hotels that got full and everyone was stuck there without even gas station food to eat. Right. So one of the diners in town got wind of what was happening and they said, well, we need to feed these people. They weren't thinking more than these people need food, right?

Right.

Got to their restaurant somehow, dog sled team or whatever, and they were able to make food, box it up, take it to the people at the hotels. And I always say, do we think that those truckers and those other people that were stuck at that hotel are going to have really good things to say about Belle Foush, South Dakota? You know, for the rest of their lives, they're going to have a good memory of that place because they were fed. It's like the Mad Love.

Yeah, right.

The highest need was taken care of. Nobody asked them to do the diner to do that. They just did that. And I think that is the beauty that starts to occur when we care about where we live.

Mm-hmm.

I don't think they were thinking that through, like, Oh my God, this is going to be great PR for my town if we do this. Of course not.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, I think what it, what it, what it's, what that reminds me of, and I think such a good reminder for all of us, is just that our town takes on the vibe of the people that are in it. It's, it's a human to human thing, right? So there's no way that they had that thought in their brains like, oh, this would be good PR for our business or, you know, that because that wasn't It was— that's almost crisis mode. You know, people that can't eat and they're stranded, that's a big deal. But it's recognizing that just by actually doing good, being good people to visitors, to travelers, people who are coming through your town, that you actually have that opportunity to cement, like you said, a lifelong memory of a bright spot in an otherwise bad situation. I just think what a— I mean, what a cool story. That's a very cool story.

It's— I just— I think good job, Belfuge.

Right, right. For sure. This is— yeah, no, go ahead, please.

Oh, I was going to add too, I wanted to add the other thing that I think, and I know you know the study, but the Soul of the Community study that was done around 2010, it's one of the— I think pretty much the like biggest study done, 3 years, and it proved that there was a link between loving where you live, people who liked their community, and the economic growth, the economic success of that place.

Right. We're going to have to link to that in the show notes. So we'll make sure that we do. So as people are listening, if they're like, wait, what was it? We'll make sure we link it. But please go ahead.

Yeah, but that's like, that's, that's a good thing to take to your council when you need to see your city council when you're like, Hey, I want money. I need money. Look, this shows that this attitude, this mind shift of loving where you're at and liking where you're at actually turns into dollars and cents, can actually be money for your community and positive success for your community. So I think that being— I think the only study out there on it, quite frankly, is wonderful proof that this actually has a real actual dollars and cents benefit, even though I prefer to talk about, you know, the emotional things, the right brain things. We all know that at the end of the day, we have to have money too, though.

Right, right. I think, I think this, I mean, this is, this gets into stuff that I'm very, very interested in. I was just out in the Pacific Northwest and I was meeting with a bunch of economic development people out there, and this is what we talked about. I basically just said, I think we really We, we lose so much when we only measure a return on investment in terms of the dollars we get back. Because an investment in— I mean, just pick a thing, anything, right? If it adds beauty, if it adds something new for people to do, if it adds a new outdoor space, if it adds some sort of an amenity along with the financial turnover of whatever, you know, whatever metrics you're measuring, if it's people that visit, like whatever, there's all sorts of things you could pick. We do have to start asking ourselves, how do we measure the value of feeling like you belong somewhere? How do you measure the value of experiencing something in this community that you couldn't before this thing was here? These are some of the things that we'd like— like literally just talked about last week. I just— I love the idea of return on emotion. But really it is, it's still an investment. And I think the communities that are figuring all of this out are the ones that are making investments even when the dollars and cents on every single element don't necessarily pencil out. So, you know, because our community can't be entirely run like a business because there's a public good aspect of it, right? And I know that that's tricky and I know that that's challenging and it's true. So let's figure it out. I mean, that's— people could, people could argue about it, but I don't— if you really think about the, your favorite things in your community, more than likely it took, it was, it was started by somebody that didn't, wasn't out just to make a buck.

Exactly. Exactly. I like to give the example of different festivals. I think it could be very— when you think festival in Colorado, you think this huge Great American Beer Festival. No, we've got little, we've got a little thing in Berthoud, Colorado. When I started working at the news paper there was a town of 5,000. Now it's 11,000. So I'm in the Front Range. So, oh wow, wow, wow, we have an amazing amount of growth. Um, but they have this thing called Flapjack Day, and the reason I use it in my presentations as an example of— it's an example of something that was put together entirely by businesses. There were no, no city organizations involved. The businesses got together. City Star Brewing was kind of the Paula Jensen, the one who had the concept.

Yeah, spearheaded it maybe. Yeah. Okay.

They brought it back from the 1950s. It had been celebrated and it was just, it's 15, I think it's 15 businesses come together to do this for the community. And why I think it's so beautiful is that not only is there not a chamber involved or anyone, anyone else with a dog in the fight kind of thing, you know what I mean?

Right.

But it gives people in Berthoud a reason to love where they live because this fun thing happens in my community. So it's these businesses fostering community love, community, you know, belonging. When, you know, when you talk about belonging, people feeling like they belong to this and they're proud to belong to it, right? Because we have this cool thing that happens.

Yeah. And I think I love, I love that example too, because I, again, I just think the more we can remind every human in a community of their capacity, their ability, their influence, their voice to step out, to use it, and to try something, right? Like, we don't have to wait for, you know, a local chamber or a city council, or we don't have to wait for somebody else to do it. You know, what would a small, simple version of it look like? And just— and I, I think too, there's so much power in reminding people that it's okay to pursue the things that would make you love your town more. That's part of what loving your town is, you know. If there's something you really want to see and it's not there, what would it look like for you to start a version of it, right? Because maybe there's other people that want the same thing and you have no idea.

Yeah. In 2000 2010-ish, 2011, so somewhere around there, I myself and the owner of the Berthed Surveyor said we need an Oktoberfest in Berthed. There's a lot of Germans from Russia there. There's a— I married a Schlafer, so I definitely, even though I'm not German, I have a lot of connections. And so the German American Chamber of Commerce in Denver was actually one of my client— Heidi Town clients. And so Becky and I decided we need an Oktoberfest in this town. We went to— I'm not going to say that we went to a certain organization and they said, no, we don't want to have anything to do with it. So Becky and I looked at each other and said, let's do it. 3 months. I had the connections to the bands, the vendors, the German connections. She could sell, you know, she's one of those people that could sell ads like crazy. We just went out and did it. And now I realize, wow, that was kind of crazy. But in 3 months, we put together this amazing Oktoberfest. Year 3, that organization who had said no came to us and said, oh, we really want to be part of this now.

Of course they do. Right. And yeah, and that is where, like, friends listening to this, we— you can have your inner thoughts, keep them to yourself and share them behind closed doors with maybe your, like, you know, share them in a safe space. But just look at those people and say, we are, we are happy me to have you. And then make sure that you keep— because keeping that invitation open, I think, is a really important part of this. It's super easy to get, like, cynical and kind of cranky about it. Um, and you can have that. That's a natural feeling. But again, it's sometimes— and I think, I think what that proves to Heidi is, like, truly, sometimes people just need to see it before they feel like they can get behind it. And honestly, if it was a chamber, you, you know, you don't have to obviously just close the group, right? But whatever the group is, what we also need to remember is when we come with our big ideas and we say, hey, you guys should do this, or hey, would you guys want to be a part of it? All they see is more work added on to their already very full plates. It's not that they hate you. It's not that they hate the town. It's not that they hate the idea. They literally just can't.

Yeah.

Until they see success and it seems less scary for them to put their energy and resources into it. So I think there's just so many things that's such a That is such a relatable story.

I just think anyone, if I could do it, I had, I did have flexible, you know, background in, but well, in 2010 I didn't have a ton of that background, but I mean, we just did it and now I didn't even think about it at the time, but looking back, I'm like, wow, we didn't ask any permissions. We just went ahead and did it and it was crazy, like crazy successful for the first couple of years. And I think that's really a great story of you have power as an individual in a community. You have power to do stuff.

Yep. It's grassroots. It's grassroots movements. It's grassroots events. It's grassroots programs, projects, all of it. And that's often how cool stuff starts. It's just a person with a passion for it finds one other buddy, and then they start. It's fantastic.

And I want to throw the name of SaveYour.Town out there because I know you've done— I've listened to them on your podcast before, Becky and Deb. But they have been so influential. They're the ones that made me realize, oh my gosh, that Oktoberfest was really cool that we did. I'm now adding that to my presentations because I am so impressed with their just do it attitude.

Totally. Totally. Every time we talk about stuff like this, I think of Becky and Deb for sure.

Yeah. I mean, with my background, I'm that person that's like, wait a minute, I don't know this regulation. We need to make sure we're dotting all our i's and crossing our t's. I get scared. And so I'm legitimately one of those people that constantly has to tell myself, just do it. Just do it.

I love it. So this also, you're reminding me of another guest that we've had, and I actually just quoted him yesterday or last week when I was out in Washington. So Ben Winchester from the University of Minnesota, he's a rural sociologist. It's my favorite thing that he's ever said, and people are probably like, yeah, Rebecca, we know. But it fits so perfectly because we're talking about neg— the negativity sometimes that lives or exists in locals, right? I mean, that's what we're talking about. When I was— when I went to a, um, this technically is one of those people challenges that I was— I asked the question all the time, like, what's the biggest people challenge you face? And this was one of the ones that people shared. And when you and I were talking, and I was like, oh great, I love that you want to talk about this because maybe we can give some ideas. But that feeling of just like, you know, either that people— and again, I don't know if it's helpful or not to get into the psychology of why people do that, because I think everybody has their own reasons. And I think more often than not, they just aren't thinking about it and they're kind of just off the cuff saying these things. But Ben talked about the fact that nobody is going to move to your community because they feel sorry for you.

Paul Jensen.

So he talks all about the rural narrative and how do we turn it around and how do we take control and actually tell a better story about our towns. And it's so funny, right? Because it's like, okay, what he's saying is if you came to my town and you ran into me and you were like, what do you love about living here? And I was like, oh God, nothing. Like, there's nothing to do here. It's actually pretty boring. Or, you know, like my favorite concept is like, it was the heyday in like '85, you know, like it's just general thought that you're not going to look at me and be like, oh my goodness, her town has a lot. It sounds like they need a lot of help. They need me. I'm going to go and help them. Nobody's brain will make those connections at all. That's not how people think. So if the goal is to get people to want to move to our communities, if the goal is to get people to want to visit our communities, how we talk about ourselves matters.

I got— I got told last— I was in a, I was in a Zoom with somebody who was talking about they actually heard from the mouth. They walked in and they were, they were waiting in line to talk to the hotelier in town, and, and literally out of the person behind the, the, behind the desk mouth came, there's nothing to do in this town. And she works at the hotel.

So yeah. Oh my goodness. And that's, and that's like, again, it's not necessarily her fault. But like, let's, let's see that that is such an important role because she's interacting with all visitors, or at least a lot of them.

Yeah.

So we need to be like, okay, we need to give you the top 3 things that make this town really great. And then those just become your script.

Sometimes it's just education. They just need however, whatever form that comes in. And let me say for anyone listening, this is so cool. They do this in Durango. Uh, Tim is, is the guy that told me all about it, the downtown. I can't remember, it's the DBA, I think. But they, uh, they have an ambassador program. So they literally have ambassadors that go out on the streets. And Durango is, yes, a very tourist community. That's their number one. People go there to, because Durango. But you could take this concept of having ambassadors in every town. Even little towns could have ambassadors who are, are going around making sure they're contacting the hotels, making sure they're on the streets if their people have questions, but also through the Ambassador Program. And it's, it's a lot of retirees do it, but it's an education for them on what's available in this community. And they not only do it for the ambassadors, but they do it for the hotel people, they do it for the restaurant people, anybody in hospitality.

Yep.

I think what's beautiful about that is that's not just for the visitors, that's for the people who are in the job. All of a sudden they're like, wow, my town is really cool. I have this and I have this and I have this.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I think the other, the other group I would include are people that work the front desks at convenience stores or gas stations, right? Because they're, they're, they're a face. Sometimes they are the only touchpoint a person has with the community. And it's, it's interesting. I was literally just thinking about this, like my son works at our local hotel and I'm just thinking like, oh my gosh, if I were to ask him that question. So now I've got a little homework to do too. Go home and like make sure my son has some good answer to that because I'm not sure that he would. He's only 16. And it's also recognizing that they hear what they hear. And so if we're not feeding them kind of those ideas or telling them how to answer those questions, it's not innate. It's not something they're just going to know how to do.

Definitely. And I have to tell you something because you mentioned gas station attendants. I was in a tourism conference probably about 10 years ago. It was a summit. It was just a 1-day tourism conference. Conference in Greeley, Colorado, and at my table was the owner of a gas station. And I thought, this guy gets it. Like, he totally gets that he's on the front lines of this. There was— there were other people that were kind of confused about why he was there. He was a business owner that understood he was the first line.

Yeah.

So your car needs gas, or if your car breaks down, Right, right.

These people that maybe have never dealt with your community at all are going to stop in and see you and your people.

Yeah, yeah. What story are you telling? And I love that he was there to find out what story Visagreely was telling. You know, he was now part of the conversation. And that's such a big part of the education is bringing those people. Like I had mentioned the hotel people and the restaurant people. You mentioned the gas station tenants. It's this educating everyone who's, who's in it, right?

Right.

Because again, I have to go back to those individual people are now champions for the community and hopefully have more love and more pride for the community than they did before, which may be worth more than what they tell the tourist, right?

It's totally— it is, it is. I think in improving people's overall sense pride in their community, it's good for the entirety of the community, right? It's good because again, when you're proud of your town, you'll invite friends and family to come and see you there. You'll invite friends and family when there's a cool event going on. Um, and there is something that's, that's to me, that's like the special sauce because that's how we spread the positivity or the message of our community out faster is when we're the ones actually being our own ambassadors for our town.

We just came full circle. It really comes back to the individual, right? It comes back to that individual person that lives there. It always starts with them. It always starts there, right?

Right. Well, I appreciate your time so much today, Heidi. It's so great to get to— again, to meet you and to kind of add to this band of people doing this work. And you have a very specific lens, but it's just, it's lovely. And, you know, all of greater Colorado is lucky to have you. And again, you're not just in Colorado. I get it. Maybe we'll have to find a way to get you to North Dakota sometime. That would be really fun. That would be really fun.

I am really honored to be here this morning. I found you early on when I started my consulting firm, and I've been listening to your podcast. I am a fangirl, so I really appreciate what you're doing. In the community because it's just important to get these thoughts out there. You know, I just—

I agreed.

So exciting to me that this is a movement that's happening, you know, that there are people like you out there, people like me out there that are, that are preaching this. I just, I really appreciate it so much. Well, like, I'm like, wow, I get to be on Rebecca's podcast.

I am so, I'm so happy to have you. You're doing, you're doing really important work, Heidi. And I think what's other— what I also just, I kind of want to leave our audience with this, which is, it's, this is a, this field. And I, you know, again, is it community development? Is it economic development? Is it chamber work? Is it tourism work? I don't, it's place-based work. Um, it's, it's rare that somebody like goes to college for this and then has their eye on this as a field, right? I think we, we kind of find our way into it. And I think what's important and what I just want to say is like your entire background gives you perspective that's unique to you. And I think that's true for every single one of us in this work. And so the more that we can work together, we can share our various perspectives, share our various backgrounds, everybody wins. Like, I, you know, again, I like this. We just did an episode last week that was about competition in neighboring communities, right? I feel that way with practitioners like yourself and like Becky and Deb and Jeff Sigler. I just literally, I just dropped their names on today's episode too. It's hilarious because because this is, this is what we do. But I want, I want every town that I interact with to know you, to know them, because everybody's bringing their own perspective. And so I think that's the other thing too. I think sometimes people in a community go, well, who am I? And I'm saying you're you, and you're the only person that can be you. So show up with the best of yourself, and your community is going to benefit from that, and so will you. It's this beautiful, like, give and take, right, where we share the best of ourselves. Everybody around us gets better, and we feel fulfilled from having gifted it. Right?

Absolutely. 100%.

Okay. Thank you so much. Come back and see us soon, Heidi. Okay?

Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

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